mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ayzev,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEsnGp0Z,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-10T15:48:50.945+0000) > > Being able to constantly spam practically undodgeable poke may not be healthy, but simply sitting on top of someone without ever doing anything except occasionally heal them is also not exactly ideal. One problem possibly fixed, but another worsened. For the champion to be played effectively you cannot remain attached to your laner if you do you are bad
That's true now, but it will be a lot less true if her passive is nerfed, hence this thread.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ayzev,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eEsnGp0Z,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-10T09:23:11.094+0000) > > If she was meant to never get off, she wouldn't have this passive. With the mana portion of her passive her kit requires absolutely zero mana management and rather a spam your q relentlessly which they also nerfed. Healthy changes all around.
You can regain mana anytime (well, on a CD) for the low, low price of risking instant death! It's so easy! I agree that she's going to be casting a lot less Qs now, but she's also going to be taking a lot less risk trying to enable her to cast more Qs. Unless you just want to see her become unplayable in all elos, I don't think this is healthy.
: She has pretty close to 100% presence in pro. Which means she needs to be nerfed. But she's also not OP in lower tiers, which means the delta is too high. If she's at near 100% presence in pro while being borderline too weak at lower tiers of skill, then she needs to have the gap between pro and normal lowered so that she can eventually hit a balanced state.
Sounds like you're describing Azir syndrome, which may be a reasonable description of her current balance state, but that still doesn't make *promoting a never-detach playstyle* the right way to nerf her. Her passive is important to giving her healthy gameplay. The bigger issue for her balance vs. elo curve IMO is that in pro she rarely/never gets screwed over by her ride going in an unexpected direction, depriving her Q of range, or jumping into 4 people believing a cat is as good as a Kayle ult. All of which are regular occurrences in soloq. Likewise allies moving out of her W range when she needs a way out (Lee Sin/Braum/Rakan can have that problem too, but they can survive it much more often). But those things are intrinsic to her champion concept, I think the only way they *can* be fixed is for regular players to actually learn what to do (and not to do) when you have a kitty. Which could take a long time.
: Here's the reasoning: Yuumi is REALLY strong in pro but not so strong at lower ELOs. Since she meets their criteria for a nerf based off of her pro presence, she needs a nerf. But they don't want to hit her in ways that make low-skill Yuumis weaker. So they took a look at the difference between a really good Yuumi and a mediocre Yuumi... and yup! You guessed it. The main difference is that top tier Yuumis get full value out of their passive, while mediocre Yuumis don't. So.... by reducing the power of the passive, they can make top tier Yuumis a bit weaker without having a huge impact on the less skilled ones.
From the pro games I've seen (which I admit is not all of them), when she actually gets through bans she gets destroyed more often than not, since the last few rounds of nerfs. It's not just about her skill level, but her opponents' too; pros can literally hook her out of her W animation before she goes untargetable, which she has basically no chance of surviving. Although I suppose that raises the question "then why do pros keep banning her" implying a different outcome in scrims... Anyway, as I posted upthread, outright removing her ability to risk her life for mana while also increasing her mana costs seems like a hypernerf that will make her worthless in all elos. At the very least they ought to buff her base and/or per level mana regen to compensate for the passive's removal (which has constant value regardless of how good you are at using her passive, so it still serves the objective of countering her Azir syndrome, if you're right that that's what they're trying to do).
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: Why are you doing this to yuumi?
Even assuming for the sake of argument that she NEEDS to be nerfed more, I don't think removing passive mana restore is a good way to do it. That just removes an incentive to detach. Because her passive can only be procced while detached, investing MORE of her power in her passive (e.g. by lowering its CD to compensate for some of the other nerfs and mana increases) would force her to take more risk more often. Maybe it's a bug? Increasing mana costs while also removing a mana regain mechanic (for the low, low price of risking instant death) would be a pretty obliterating hypernerf to someone who is a useless sack of bonus gold+exp when OOM. The other nerfs seem like more than enough already.
vyoda (NA)
: Bruh just /mute all. I play Supp _and_ ADC, so I know it’s a struggle ~~sometimes~~ most games. Let them whine, and carry on {{champion:267}} . I kinda get the “plaY a tAnK” complaint though. Some players have a play style that is tank supp reliant, or they’re just afraid you’ll play a mage and take all the kills & cs.
> [{quoted}](name=vyoda,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=415vXRor,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-10T07:31:41.946+0000) > > I kinda get the “plaY a tAnK” complaint though. Some players have a play style that is tank supp reliant, or they’re just afraid you’ll play a mage and take all the kills & cs. Or they're expecting you to fix the Yasuo top, Yi jungle, Zed mid comp singlehandedly with no gold or levels. That's a fun one. What I wish I heard more often is "You're pinging drake? OK, my smite is ready and I'm not on the topside for no reason when it's about to spawn." I have learned by long and bitter experience that if the jungler doesn't want to give a shit about drake, you can't make them. Respect to all junglers who understand the value of objective control.
Barkley (NA)
: Your disarm, silence, shrink will never proc. The enemy’s will proc 100% of the time.
: PSA: Buy 1 cost units early, even if you plan on not using them later.
Mental flexibility is important to the mode, so I agree with not over-tunneling on your first 2 star or whatever, but I think sold and dead player's champs should go back into the "deck" so that it's not so easy to screw up other players' builds. It just doesn't feel right to "beat" someone by burning through champs they wanted, rather than beating them in a fight. Although ultimately, what is and isn't a legitimate strategy is for Riot to decide. While I agree you shouldn't screw yourself out of interest, buying and immediately selling them still "burns" them AFAIK. Without tying down your bench space long term or preventing you from getting interest (as long as you sell them before the round ends). This is disgustingly cheesy and should be removed, IMO. And before someone says "but it works, so you should do it", Revive Karthus was effective, too, that didn't mean Riot should keep it in the game, and eventually, they didn't.
: Frozen Wallet on Glacial champ
This isn't a bug, it's just you using items badly. Sorry that sounds kind of harsh, but what did you expect when you made a champion glacial that is already glacial? Did you think they would count as 2 champs? You can free up the mallet by selling the champ, which is useful if you have (or can get) another of the same champ. Unless they're a 3-star and then you probably don't want to do that either. P.S. Also, the item is called frozen mallet.
: Aftershock + Lux Support is Still the Core Problem
The one thing you're leaving out of this analysis is that you have to *land a Q* for aftershock to proc. If you want to exploit Lux's weakness, dodge her skillshot! Then she stays completely squishy and is easy to blow up. IOW, aftershock lux is a skill matchup, she doesn't win for free.
Sëtíer (NA)
: Talk About "Elemental Class" Golem
I've beaten elementalist comps before. Keep in mind they're getting that *instead of* another family bonus like Sorcerer or Blademaster. And I haven't seen the golem do tons of damage, especially considering you can't put items on it. Do you think Elementalists win more games than other classes? Hopefully Riot is keeping track of that sort of thing...
Rownan (NA)
: Not enough time to prepare!
Even 2 more seconds to most rounds would help, I think. Obviously you don't want to make them TOO long, but people frequently not having time to set the formation they want isn't good.
Cibreca (NA)
: Add a description of item scaling--please?
I never thought I'd say this, but I literally don't know if Kassadin, of all people, benefits from mana or AP at all!
: And maybe make it so you can't do double of the same item. I saw a Pyke with just 2 SoS, and he was stunning basically every 3rd auto attack. That was broken as hell and made the entire game completely unfun for myself and those I was playing with.
I think SoS is due for a nerf in general, the only champs that DON'T abuse it are ones like vayne that it literally doesn't work on.
: Raise Elise's base stats from lowest in the game to 2nd lowest and then she'd be less ass
I got an elise from the opening carousel and tried to make something of her again... stuck at 8 for like 5 rounds. I did get into 2nd place with a 3-star Shyv though. Shapeshifters *in general* aren't completely hopeless, they're just hard to use (every single one of them is at risk of dying before they go off, and the family bonus doesn't help with that at all). I do agree that Elise seems underpowered though.
Sashraan (NA)
: First champion very rarely matters. 90% of the time, selling them and going for the item they had is better, that way you get more gold to potentially purchase pairs of champions in the shop so you can reach Silver-level champions faster. Also, if you only think of one choice, you're doing it wrong. It's like thinking "Okay so let's get Fire Drake and then we can do Baron with the added buff... Wtf it's a Cloud Drake instead! Wow GG we can't do anything!". Always have a plan B and a plan C. The whole point of TFT is to test your adaptability... if all you want is to pick and choose your own comp.. I'm not sure if TFT is for you, honestly? Just my two cents, nothing personal (I just re-read and I sound sort of harsh, but that's not my intention at all ^^')! {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
I try to get a champion with a class-appropriate item in the starting carousel, like Needlessly Large Ahri/Lulu or BF or Recurve Varus/Lucian. You might wind up selling them anyway, but you also might end up promoting them, and a 2-cost is stronger than a 1-cost. My last win included 3-starring my starting Lulu. You get at least 2 gold per round even early, so you can still grab a pair if one shows up. (Or you could sell your 2-cost *then*, you don't have to do it right away.) I agree with your point about flexibility though. Although it's so frustrating to be sitting at 7 or 8 of what SHOULD be a common champion for multiple rounds... sometimes you just have to divest and pivot.
Rullin (NA)
: Watch missions not rewarding...
I guess rift rivals is not part of "games from this split"? But that leaves me puzzled about what I *can* watch this week that would count.
: Watching Pro Games and Not Getting Credit for Them....
I watched some Rift Rivals this morning and didn't get credit. Like the games weren't demoralizing enough already...
: In TFT morde has a class ability that requires 2 of to curse a random champion which is cool except for the fact he is the only champion in the game that provides that effect which makes him an early game decent pick but trash mid game.
He's the only champion in the EARLY game to have that effect. Kindred and Karthus are also Phantoms. Kindred can appear in the second carousel round or after you've leveled up enough. Hopefully they will eventually add more champions with the Phantom tag such as Kallista, Yorick or Hecarim.
Sherrl (NA)
: Can we get some form of reward for TFT?
TFT counts as first win of the day apparently. If you're spectating the winner when the game ends, it pops up the "Victory" animation... and counts as YOUR first win of the day. I don't expect *that* to last long.
: As someone who plays a fair amount of Yuumi, she should not exist
Her untargetability most of the time is balanced by the fact that killing her ally in a 2v2 is a nearly free doublekill. Even in a 5v5 she may not be able to get to someone else without being interrupted and blown up. She can't keep up with two enemy champions' damage output, not even close, so she'd better hope her ally kills one of the attackers first. And in an actual fight her Q becomes pretty damn weak, even without minions to block it. I think she's been nerfed enough for low elo soloq where her ally will often back away while her q is in the air and deny her range, carry her to certain death because they confused the attachment effect with a Taric ult, or similar 200 IQ plays. But her pro play banrate suggests an Azir effect -- with people who really know her and/or teammates that really know how to play *with* her she may be too strong. And Azir is *still* not viable at many people's elos, so that's a depressing thought.
: Death - Keep the items or Do they shuffle??
Do items have a limited pool the way champions do? So after a certain number of BF swords have dropped or appeared in carousels, there are no more for the rest of that game? That would really intensify the importance of improving item balance.
: Little Legends Skins - Why They Should Not Be RNG Only.
RNG-only would be fine for the play-to-earn part of the system (the equivalent of blue essence, or it could actually integrate with BE if TFT got its own FWOTD mission or something), but people who are spending real money are going to expect a reasonable degree of control over what they are buying. Or they're not going to be spending real money. Also, while duplicates upgrading is nice, it needs to not be the *only* way to upgrade. An RP upgrade token to use on your choice of LLs you already own (and aren't max level) would be great. Or giving each LL an experience bar that fills slightly per game depending on your result, with an actual level-up animation when you win the game that earns you the next form. (Or both, making the token a "pay to accelerate" system. Those are usually popular without pissing anyone off too much.)
: Little Legends Series Egg Guide
Please add a play-to-earn system in some form. 10% chance to get a random egg when winning a game for example. Or regular missions that reward an egg. (Once per week, win 3 games of TFT to get a random egg? That would take over 2 years to earn all of the current ones, and I assume you intend to add new ones before that anyway.) Alternatively, if the eggs had a BE cost (even if it was like 5k) then you could earn them by playing League. (In the long run maybe essences could be earned and spent in either game? Chests and keys could be earned in either game and have rewards for either game?) Paying RP for a completely random result is something that doesn't appeal to me at all, but I could see myself maybe paying RP for an upgrade token to add 1 level to a legend of your choice you already own (and then relying on play-to-earn to get level 1s).
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 20
I'm looking forward to TFT but I was disappointed to see that enchanters are not a class at release. They're a class that is to a significant extent defined by empowering allies to perform better in teamfights (IMO). I hope you consider this for one of the "sets of champions" updates (possibly including retrofitting Lulu to a Sorcerer-Enchanter, as well as adding Guardian-Enchanters Taric and Rakan and some more traditional enchanters like Soraka or Janna). I do wonder though how addition of champions is going to affect the difficulty of building 2 or 3 stars, or finding that one champion that fits into your team synergies.
: Player Behavior - Naming & Shaming Sticky
Does the no naming and shaming rule apply to people that literally streamed their own misbehavior for all of Twitch (the website, not the champion) to see? Because that would be kind of odd, IMO.
: ok it did jsut happend to me i was playing trundle im going to send a link right there below (it made me quiet laugh) :
In the first clip the heal for 1800ish is just as a lantern is expiring. I think the rumor that this is due to thresh lantern having 9999 hp (or some such ridiculous number) is true.
: If a morde and another morde
Can a Morde and a Sylas cause this too? I assume so but someone should probably test.
Lewdigital (EUNE)
: mordekaiser bug after patch 9.12
Wow, even dying didn't remove it. That's pretty bad.
Rioter Comments
: Not sure if this is a bug or is intentional...
IDK if it's intentional, but it seems pretty busted. Can he do that to Heimer, Zyra, Azir, etc.? I just drew him in an ARAM and ulted a Xayah a couple times, but I wasn't really paying attention to whether she already had feathers down at the time. P.S. Imagine if this worked on Tibbers and Daisy! Or Orianna's ball!
: > [{quoted}](name=WastedHooker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tgpoUMEy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-09T09:52:40.395+0000) > > I don't think shields should even be in the game. There's nothing interesting or smart with shields. But go ahead and downvote me because you have no counter argument, person. If there were no shields. Assassins would dominate the game.
> [{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tgpoUMEy,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-06-09T09:59:56.261+0000) > > If there were no shields. Assassins would dominate the game. One guess what role the person you're responding to mains...
: > [{quoted}](name=Gabriyel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q3KPGBlc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-30T10:06:41.797+0000) > > I feel like pure support supports are falling off.. I.E people HATE Yuumi yet shes arguably better then Janna/soraka in the middle of a fight bc of burst heals speedups etc People hate most enchantresses because they're all about protecting their carry. If you're a diver or assassin and you get chorded/ulted by Sona as she heals up and shields her carry, you're not gonna like her
Assassin player: I can totally 1v1 that ADC Support player: You know I'm also a champion, right? Assassin player: omg nerf supports they so OP
: As a melee player, I'm glad exhaust isn't the supp summoner anymore. It was kinda dumb how one champ had a point and click move that effectively made your champion the equivalent of a cannon minion for the duration of the teamfight. Oh you avoided all the cc, got past the adcs kite, stuck to them after they flashed and dashed away? EXHAUST! free kill for enemy.
In a thread about exhaust vs. ignite you're complaining that EXHAUST is the free kill? The entire purpose of ignite is to give people kills they didn't land enough abilities to actually earn.
: That's basically just Tahm Kench {{champion:223}}
IIRC that was literally his internal nickname among the dev team before his official name was decided.
: I suspect people will be frustrated with the item as long as it has phantom hit. What if it amplified on-hits (kind of like stormrazor) instead of double applying them. I bet people would find that less agravating. Just a suggestion for consideration.
> [{quoted}](name=Raven Redeemed,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=82cE8haV,comment-id=000b00000006,timestamp=2019-04-26T18:41:33.339+0000) > > I suspect people will be frustrated with the item as long as it has phantom hit. What if it amplified on-hits (kind of like stormrazor) instead of double applying them. I bet people would find that less agravating. Just a suggestion for consideration. And it wouldn't break people like Vayne and Xin. There's a reason nobody is *designed* to have a 2-hit passive: there isn't enough counterplay to it. (Especially when they also have a reset!) Increasing on-hit *damage*, even by an apparently bonkers amount like 50%, wouldn't distort the play patterns of X-hit abilities. Phantom hit is unbalanceable.
: Shonen Anime Skins
I don't see how they could possibly make a more shounen skin than {{champion:68}}'s. That skin is the skin that will pierce the heavens! On the subject of anime set at a school, I'd love to see a Revolutionary Fiora (with the Rose Seal for her ult), but that's not shounen (despite the frequent swordfights).
: nerf vayne already.
Rework or remove rageblade first. Then see whether vayne still needs nerfing. 3-hit passives are a meme, but they're also a frequently used design principle because the time to build up to the 3rd hit provides counterplay. A 2-hit passive is nowhere near as healthy a design, especially on a champ that also has a cheap short CD reset.
RNJudas (EUW)
: How about nerfing Aftershock for ranged champions?
Thresh and Rakan are ranged, so that seems like a pretty big problem with your suggestion. What specific ranged champions do you think are a problem with Aftershock? Is Aftershock really the problem and not their champion design or ratios?
: Why has Vayne not be nerfed yet
You answered your own question: because the real problem is rageblade. I think there's probably an internal argument going on in Riot between "rework/delete rageblade" and "nerf about a dozen champs who are broken with rageblade" and obviously the first side *should* win. Making all on-hit effects go off *50%* more often than they are designed to is bad enough on its own, but when you combine it with a kit that has resets like Vayne's, you can literally proc a 3 hit passive in under a second using only an ability that has almost no cost or CD. I don't think rageblade needs to exist at all. Balance on-hitters around {{item:3153}} {{item:3085}} or {{item:3153}} {{item:3086}} upgrade of choice or something like that. Maybe even {{item:3153}} {{item:3115}} for people who really benefit from the hybrid ratios. Straight AS is way, way less abuse prone than Phantom Hit.
Padoµch (EUNE)
: The main thing is, that it stopped being "who is the better player" and started being "who get the bigger monkey into his team". You can win the game, your team can be good, but in late game if, lets say the jungler, jumps into enemy team solo and gets killed, you loose. Thats it. I feel its sad that personal skill isnt taken into calculations. I´ve seen people that had to be boosted from B5 (in which they fed like crazy) into S5, and it doesnt let them drop down, even tho their normal score is like 1/16/3.
It's never been "who is the better player". It's always been "who are the better 5 players".
Saianna (EUNE)
: if only we had such thing where players can be matched with each other based by their skills, where they can fight against other similar-skilled opponents.. If only..
They try, but the same player can have a different level of performance from one game to the next (even if they're on the same champion in the same matchup, which they often aren't).
: Look at my match history and tell me skill matters in League of Legends.
Looks to me like skill mattered quite a lot in all those games. It wasn't always YOUR skill being more important than the skill of everyone else in the game, but why would you expect it to be?
: the most important first step would be adressing the broken phantom-hit mechanic which is part of what removes her counterplay, only needing two hits after getting the highest AS item is hardly an issue, while getting 3 hits is atleast a bit more complicated on a short(ish) ranged squishy.
On a champion with a short cooldown AA reset! 2 hits is not a meaningful restriction AT ALL to Vayne. Phantom Hit needs to go.
Bergk (NA)
: Neeko passive with Kayn.
There are quite a few champions whose appearance can change in ways that would need special testing for Neeko's passive to work correctly, and now I'm doubting whether they actually got it. If Neeko imitates Nidalee, Jayce, Elise, or Gnar, does she copy the form they are in when she activates her passive? Does she change form when they do? Is Neeko-as-Kindred accompanied by a fake Wolf? Does Neeko-as-Orianna appear to carry the Ball? Does Neeko-as-Aurelion-Sol have stars orbiting her? When is Neeko-as-Kled mounted and when is she not?
: I really wish adcs didnt make or break games
An equally fed solo laner will still destroy them. Extremely fed players can make or break games in most roles. There's nothing special about ADCs.
Alzon (NA)
: Why are you being downvoted? Rageblade doesn’t need a nerf just because Vayne and Yi abuse Phantom Hit - those champions just need the key abilities decoupled from Phantom Hit. Everyone else who uses the item is fine. Bork definitely doesn’t need a nerf, and Nashor’s definitely doesn’t need any changes either - it has plenty of people who viably build it. When a certain champion abuses an item or rune that is fine on most other champions, nerf the champion. Avoid the Riot Special by minimizing blanket nerfs/buffs.
Has there ever been a version of Phantom Hit that wasn't abused? I get that Riot wants to have something that allows you to stack things faster like AS but is somehow cooler than AS, but it's just too big a difference to go from 3 hits to proc to 2 hits to proc. And 3-hit passives are a meme for a reason, there legitimately are a ton of them in the game. Revert rageblade to one of its previous non-Phantom-Hit versions and stop playing whack-a-mole with the latest cheese build (and hurting legitimate builds of the same champion in the process). Neeko isn't the problem. And because of that, Rageblade will still have to be addressed eventually, resulting in her being nerfed for nothing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nevrankroaton,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXPR4mTQ,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:24:33.769+0000) > > I am not in the main opinion on this one as I am glad vision isn't as easy to set-up as before. > Too many time could we have the team being ahead having over control of the jungle and also deleting the ennemy vision, using their gold advantage to actually suffocate the ennemy behind and not allowing any comeback as long as you played as clean as possible. > > It is why the removal of tracker knife and nerfing vision ward to 2 for every people made fighting for vision so important, it allowed to remove the overcontrol/safety that lanes/jungler with priority would get. It would allow actual creative path because early ganker will use particular ganking route or pathing to trump the ennemy team/jungler on what he is doing. > > I agree that the real problem come from lack of defensive capacity for a laner who don't have priority in lane (notably top or bottom). But. Like I said before. I can easily argue the opposite. More access to vision and deny a snowball by allowing the losing team to track the enemy team and never be caught by surprise, or in unfavorable fights.
If you're the losing team, all your fights are unfavorable except the ones where you surprise the enemy. If you can't do that, then you can't come back unless they literally walk into your fountain or something. You can't even hope for a miracle baron/elder steal because they'll have plenty of vision to kill your jungler before he gets near the pit.
: just a small 2 cent of mine. players say vision add skill but i find having easy way to get vision as the opposite of skill. being able to spam great vision just make so easy to cover everything and it take 0 skills to do so.
I agree, when you have limited vision you have to *choose* where to put it (because the answer literally can't be "everywhere"), which *is* a skill. Anticipating where the action is going to be a few minutes from now. And then you have to play around where you can see and where you can't, which is *another* skill. Limited vision is a more skilled game than "pay some gold to light up everything" -- or, the way it *actually* worked, "demand your support pay all his gold to light up everything". Maybe maps are currently a bit *too* dark and they should adjust trinket cooldowns, but gold for vision was always a bad system and I'm glad they've now mostly gotten rid of it. Supports earn bonus vision by doing support things, and everyone else has to make intelligent use of their trinkets and whatever scryer's blooms are available. Now if only they could find a way to get rid of the gold and inventory tax for control wards... People obviously shouldn't be allowed to place infinite control wards, but "how much gold can you spare and is your inventory full" seems like a bad way to decide how many control wards you get to place. Like the old regular wards, the fact that they are items at all is a historical artifact that goes back to WC3 custom maps, but that's no reason to keep it if it's producing bad results for a very different game 15 years later. If "Place Control Ward" was just an extra ability (like summoners and recall) with charges that you get one every X seconds (or, equivalently, a permanent trinket in addition to your swappable trinket), I think it would be an improvement over the current inventory-based system.
: If you're getting camped, let them. Focus on being hard to get and make them waste their time trying to get you while they lose the initiative on the rest of the map.
Yes. The biggest problem a jungler has is that they can't be everywhere at the same time, and unlike a laner, gold and experience don't just walk up to you in 6-7 convenient little packages every 30 seconds. Wasting time is bad. So whenever you have an opportunity to waste the enemy jungler's time, take it. This involves a certain amount of trust that your teammates actually WILL do something worthwhile on the rest of the map, but... if all of your teammates are worthless, you're almost certainly going to lose anyway.
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