: right? its on the left for me
It was on the right a year ago!
: So I'm assuming the counter includes not only your own points but the cumulative points of the comments on your posts, as that's where I imagine mine are coming from. As for the very valid fear of point whoring and the many people bringing that up: The metric is not actively advertised and does not give any accolades. So if we as a community don't put much emphasis on it then it won't be a problem. Just laugh at anyone think having more upvotes validates them in any way. And then proceed to chastise them, negative feedback to deny the general behavior. Works on Imgur!
Don't overthink it. Just let it be interesting. If it becomes a problem we'll take it away. That's the beauty of iteration. Don't think of it as moving backwards. Think of it as moving forwards in a different direction!
: I refuse to read that. That references section takes up an entire page.
Hey man - if you don't want to invest the time in informing yourself that's on you :D
: True, I wonder what people use as their determinant for choosing a post. It might be an interesting statistic to collect before eradicating the downvote system. Many people might not take into account the views a post has when choosing to click it. If the majority of people use downvoted/upvoted as whether or not they click it (which at the moment is probably true), then you may have to respect that opinion. You could always give an average rating for a post (such as the stars given to items being reviewed on Amazon). At least that way people can vote on whether they like/dislike a post without having a post that goes to -oblivion. Its also not a yes/no system, in which people may instinctively hit no on just because they don't want to hit yes.
Really we want to get to a place where you don't have to choose really - if it's in your feed you're probably interested in it but you can dig deeper if you want to. I think player's time is incredibly valuable and we're honored when people choose to spend their time with us - which means in aggregate we want to waste as little of players time as possible! Dramatic improvements can be made to the signal to noise ratio for sure
Retillin (NA)
: Nooo, don't remove downvotes. The entire thought of removing it scares me. As an example, when I see a Rioter with negative points on his post that's a GOOD thing. It is a showing of how much the community disagrees with him. Not everyone has time/desire to type out a response to people. In situations like this, it allows an outlet for people to be upset/disagree with a Rioter without being mean or getting personal. What is the benefit of removing downvotes? I honestly can not think of one that is not PR induced. (Rioters can no longer be downvoted so it looks better) Just examples by the way.
Here are some reasons that downvotes may be bad. These are things we've learned both from our own research, and research by third parties. 1) People who create content that gets negatively downvoted tends to downvote other content and create lower quality content afterwards. 2) People who get no feedback (positive or negative) tend to stop creating content completely. 3) People who get positive feedback don't seem to be influenced in terms of post quality or quantity. 4) The first vote on a new post greatly sways the overall sentiment The overall approach would be - can we remove downvotes without negatively impacting the quality of the content feed. If we don't think there is a way to do it then we wouldn't do it but I'm pretty sure there is. The other thing is... the worst case scenario we'd just change it back if it was really that bad. Sometimes the best way to know for sure is just to try it and be flexible right. Read this for funsies http://cs.stanford.edu/people/jure/pubs/disqus-icwsm14.pdf
: > [{quoted}](name=Pendragon,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=EanArG3R,comment-id=0001000000030001,timestamp=2015-04-28T18:13:07.375+0000) > > We actually want to completely get rid of downvotes too - we're just trying to figure out the right system to replace it with My two cents: A system without downvotes, a. Discourages people from voicing their opinion b. Only changes the standard of what is a good or bad thread -- not necessarily in a good way. For example, if the common opinion is that a post is bad, it simply doesn't receive up votes, rather than getting downvoted. The problem is that while John Doe's bad post is sitting at 1, my brand new post also only has 1 upvote. Now people don't know if my post is bad or good, because the standard of a "bad" post is now to have a low number of upvotes rather than any downvotes. Replacing the system could lead to interesting options, but I don't think it's fair to take away the voter's voice. Silencing people doesn't make them positive, they'll just find another outlet. I.e posting mean comments.
Don't forget that Time and Views are both important facets of "Hotness"/"Popularity" You can look at those things as ratios, not just the votes themselves
: > [{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=EanArG3R,comment-id=0001000000050000,timestamp=2015-04-28T10:26:17.093+0000) > > Come hang out with us in the CommunityPlatform chat room, first! I'm there.
I'm there a lot. I've just been on the road lately
j j (NA)
: Quick downvote pendragon. Seriously if downvotes counted I doubt any rioter would have a positive number. I'd probably also be negative. WOOOT YES LET IT BE.
A little less than 70% of all votes cast are upvotes. We actually want to completely get rid of downvotes too - we're just trying to figure out the right system to replace it with
: I have more upvotes than you, Pendragon. Clearly I am more helpful and intelligent than you are. Seriously, people already like collecting upvotes instead of posting good content, stop encouraging them.
Sure, but I have more upvotes per post. Quality over quantity. Come at me bro.
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Pendragon,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=UO6sELmb,comment-id=0051000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-29T19:40:39.807+0000) > > Yah, thanks! Penny I miss you.
> [{quoted}](name=CutieTank,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=UO6sELmb,comment-id=00510002000000000001,timestamp=2015-04-27T23:27:35.053+0000) > > Penny I miss you. Well alright. I guess I miss you too
1 Wing (NA)
: uhmm, yah, right? This also creates an environment where, if a post does not immediately become popular, then no one will ever see it; thus, only certain kinds of posts will really be visible in the forum.
You replied to a year-old post that I made, and I see your reply. The "it's not on the front page so nobody sees it" argument is a total illusion. Lots of people go really deep
Hirok0 (NA)
: I kind of point out (to a much less wordy degree) these things when people cry that they don't get red posts. But I can't help feeling like you guys aren't there sometimes, even though I know you probably read something and just didn't post. Would it be reasonable to make generalized responses, such as has been done is a few News posts on the main site, or even to simply say in particular topic something like "I am enjoying the discussion here." I mean... we just want to know that you guys actually see the stuff. Even replying with complete nonsense tells us you visited.
It's still a tricky situation. If you spent a lot of time to craft a thoughtful position that you've articulated well - I think it would be reasonable to assume that if "Riot" saw it then we would react to it in the way that you expect/recommend. We're not a hivemind here. Just because someone saw it doesn't necessarily mean that someone saw it who is involved in a decision that you care about, or that we're actually going to make the change. There's also a really broad distribution of conversations whenever there's a hot topic. Which one is the right one? Is it all of them? What are if there are dozens/hundreds of LONG discussions which make points of varying validity? Do we detail out our response, or just respond in bulk? What about the other 20+ languages that LoL is in? It's not as easy as you think it to build that loop I think. I do think - It's important for us to respond directly to popular topics that players care about - It's important for us to explain the rationale to decisions that we make - especially controversial ones When there's a large dominant topic though I think the tactic has to change from responding to individual discussions, to READING all of the discussions, balancing all of the points made (typically HUNDREDS) and crafting the single most comprehensive response. You lose the dialogue - but you can condense the follow-up conversation in a single place.
: Obviously I'm not versed in polling stats or methodology but 5-10% polling response seems like a pretty inefficient method of gathering votes. So again, why bother?
(It's possible I'm wrong - researchers plz don't hit me) The percentage of responses has really no impact except if the lack of response rate somehow indicates a bias in the sample The number of responses matters a lot up to a certain point - after which it doesn't matter at all.
: I haven't taken a statistics class in a decade but that ratio seems pretty insubstantial for any real feedback. How many do I need though? If I were to just throw out a number: 25% would seem like the minimum amount. Also I didn't realize that they weren't unique views. Why aren't they? Multiple view counts of the same person seems unnecessary.
A 25% view to vote ratio isn't realistic. Even a 25% unique view to vote ratio isn't realistic. 5-10% is good, anything more is exceptional. The number of votes you need depends entirely on your acceptable margin of error. Depending on what you're looking to figure out though - you're going to have a sampling bias way before a problem with your confidence in the result /2c
: Polls are nearly useless. I had a post with 1k views and a poll at the bottom with a simply yes or no style question. At most I think i got 70 people to do the poll... Why bother. Also setting up polls are a pain (they were before anyways; not sure recently).
How many responses do you feel like you need? That seems pretty good to me... Also poll votes are unique (max one per person) and views are not. You could have 1000 views and 1 unique view (if you view a discussion a thousand times)
: Did you know you can't view the results without voting? That's sad.
Zmuecat (NA)
: I know this might sound pissy when I say it, but could you guys find a way to make that known to the community? Hell, even just appearing in threads you believe make good points, and saying "+1, good job." might help. You guys are obviously around, just make it a bit more known maybe? I get there's a lot of rage in going on, but it doesn't help when it just FEELS like you guys ignore so much feedback. People have done both extremes, the super happy bullet pointed essay detailing what's wrong, and the rage induced "Rito worst game place ever!" to everything in between. I dunno, I for some reason don't think that's a completely off the wall request, but I also don't run a business so I might be talking out of turn.
While I could confirm that we appreciate the feedback on decisions that you make and that we're listening (because we do and we are). I really can't agree or disagree with comments that are made in an area that I haven't spent a ton of thinking. The last thing I'd want to do is give someone the impression that Riot "likes" their balance suggestions because I +1'd a thread where I have no idea I'm talking about. There are 1700 of us and many millions of you who speak dozens of languages from hundreds of countries. As a general rule - there isn't a single popular sentiment that we don't read and consider in our decision making. We also have to balance what we read here, on reddit, etc with massive amounts of other information including surveys, user testing, and detailed analysis from petabytes of data. We could always get better at closing the loop with feedback and I think in general we have up cycles and down cycles as we evolve as a company. We love that you guys are (sometimes) patient with us as we grow up as a company. That being said - do you really want to make it so everyone here so afraid to post that they won't do it unless it's specifically our job to do it? We love healthy and balance criticism, we love thoughtful debate. we don't like to be personally attacked and insulted, we don't like to be treated like we don't care.
: Instead of making bullshit posts like this, could you actually read the forums and respond? That would be great.
I read and respond to lots of things. Generally I try to read and responds to things that I know (at least a little bit) about. Also - this is a serious poll asking a serious question. I was just trying to have a little fun with it. u wot m8
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Pendragon,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=UO6sELmb,comment-id=00510002,timestamp=2015-01-29T19:23:11.018+0000) > > Test comment So did you pass the test?? =P
> [{quoted}](name=ChimeiTekinaNasu,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=UO6sELmb,comment-id=005100020000,timestamp=2015-01-29T19:33:09.931+0000) > > So did you pass the test?? =P Yah, thanks!
: Heya - can you take a screenshot of what you mean? Right now there should be a comment box below the main post/OP as well as below the thread of comments.
: To clarify, I did say that you can *suggest* anything you want. Other than that - carry on
> [{quoted}](name=Pendragon,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=UO6sELmb,comment-id=0051,timestamp=2014-12-07T01:00:05.154+0000) > > To clarify, I did say that you can *suggest* anything you want. > > Other than that - carry on Test comment
: Pendragon gave us permissions to create our own "Rules of General Discussion"
To clarify, I did say that you can *suggest* anything you want. Other than that - carry on
Daen (NA)
: I really don't understand why this is, but it's unlisted. The only way to access it is if either you have the URL or you go to the archive of the roleplaying section from the old forums and find the link there.
I believe at the moment they prefer to be unlisted
: "Server is busy"
Our live service team is aware of the issue and investigating http://status.leagueoflegends.com/#na
: Bring the comment box back to the bottom of the post not the bottom of the comments
Heya - can you take a screenshot of what you mean? Right now there should be a comment box below the main post/OP as well as below the thread of comments.
: I would love to be positive and one of the "shiny happy people" around here, but I have some problems doing so. I'm a fan of Riot's lore... but I've been burned by too many team changes, broken promises of communication and complete shifts in the story with no explanation or feedback. Additionally, I have been lied to *directly* by Riot Staff at various events, on these forums and on Reddit. And yet, here I remain: Hopeful that things will change, skeptical when promises are made and angry when things don't happen as they should. Should I just give up, sir?
If you believe that we're well-intentioned and that we want the best for players - and we're striving to build a great product for millions of great people then you should certainly not give up. Help us find our footing as we're working through the nuance of execution and complexity of scale.
: It's the Kalista champion spotlight, when you get to it through the [news page](http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/).
Ah hmm yeah I don't like that either. I'll ask some folks about it. Generally I think that linking to external websites is OK but you have to make sure that you're telling someone that they're going to leave the website (so they can make an informed choice)
Thryale (NA)
: Embedding Youtube Links into thread titles
Can you show me the link you're talking about ?
Daen (NA)
: I know you were only picking things that came to you off the top of your head or whatnot, but overall there does appear to be a pattern. 10 Gameplay Topcis 6 Art Topics 1 Matchmaking Topic 1 Net Ops Topic 1 Bug Report Topic 1 Commerce Topic 1 Lore Topic 1 Career Topic 1 Gameplay topic 1 Riot Games career topic It's strange to me that you didn't mention any topics about community interaction, communication, the Boards, Out-of-client experience, etc., seeing as that's primarily what you deal with (from what I understand). Generally speaking, there seems to be a comparative lack of discussion about things that are not gameplay or art, and there are a *lot* of players that find other topics important.
You can't say "not to nitpick" and then nitpick really deeply lol. Again - not that we can't get better, but how about some credit for the couple of dozen community topics we've done on here in the past couple of months. We've had discussions about impending changes to the clients, there's a HUGE amount of communication about the boards - it's just highly decentralized.
Kobold (NA)
: Pendragon Just a question but are you intentionally replying to the OP or is there and error on the boards for you? As your responses seem weird considering the OP's post. Seems like you are trying to reply to people but its redirecting you to the OP.
We're having some live issues with the boards that we're working on
: Why is Riot Flaming a Thing
We've never going to be able to exclusively commit to one platform or channel for communication - generally we believe that we should be making information widely available to players all over. Here's a short list of some discussions that we've had on the boards. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/1LJP1ovA-ranked-restrictions http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/oFAWgxY0-community-tell-me-your-skin-ideas http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/xAQdUGK8-statikk-qa-completed http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qlEEXEiO-kalista-qa-completed http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/5UhE9vyA-so-what-do-you-guys-wanna-do-with-taric http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/txxQETbY-champion-updateiupdate http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/summoners-rift/XXaotoAi-updated-summoners-rift-qa-117 http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/service-status/REfQ8hps-regarding-recent-instability-on-north-america http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zfz9XJpE-preseason-2015-qa-completed http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/cpeMzjhN-help-riot-troubleshoot-the-mac-bug http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/bJ78j8nt-upcoming-nidalee-gameplay-update http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zuL472BJ-cassiopeia-plans http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-skins/4iUzAEEA-braum-qa-gameplay-completed http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1jXwf2BP-latest-on-cassiopeia http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/H004gAPw-ecommerce-qa http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gFME3v51-on-the-future-of-cassiopeia-also-some-background http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BTP5uwf1-this-rework-is-going-to-be-bananas-soraka-rework-preview-and-discussion http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/pentakill/Wg5v1qAx-pentakill-qa http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/83Q9LBlB-new-batch-of-texture-rebalances http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/6EofhoHW-lets-talk-biographies http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/A8YYtOo8-gnar-qa-gameplay-completed http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/cpxR8zKn-amaa-riot-games-qa-careers-and-questions
: Why is Riot Flaming a Thing
> But really what people are pointing out is that it's not that you don't want to make minorities happy. Because obviously why wouldn't you want to make them happy, its good for business. It's that the time spent in development of lore could be better spent in the development of things that would make 80% of people happy instead of 2%. It's impractical. If it wasn't you would have developed a strong lore team 4 years ago. It's the same reason me and all my friends who have been playing since season 1 have 100,000 - 300,000 ip and nothing to do with it. We only represent a tiny fraction of the population. In the over six years I've been here - I've been part of the hiring process and have directly or indirectly brought well over a hundred people into Riot. They've varied from heads of departments to entry-level contributors. Hiring teams is actually super tough. You want someone who will fit well culturally, is an expert in their craft but also is responsive to players, someone who works with a team well - but also owns their work and is entrepreneurial. You want someone who is a gamer or a minimum someone who will take the time to become one, you want someone who is a leader in the field - but maybe doesn't have the baggage, or someone who isn't a leader but has huge potential, etc etc. Once you bring someone in (typically it can take a year from identifying the need for a person to getting someone we believe to be the right person in the door). Then you have onboarding. They have to learn how the company works and how they make decisions, they have to build a plan for whatever they're working on, sometimes they then have to build a team - either by rallying people who are already here or by bringing in people who aren't here yet. This is a huge intense process. If you brought in a leader and it turns out that they were the wrong fit - you missed something in the interview process, they struggled to rally the team, whatever. Sometimes that means you're going to start over from square one. You can't just throw money at people and all of the sudden they come in and it's perfect. It's takes careful planning and cultural architecture and time to develop that environment and we learn at every step. The company has gone from ~30 people to 1500+, and one office to a dozen offices in 6 years. The rate of growth is insane but it comes with its challenges. As you grow too you have to restructure - reform departments, move work around etc. Either because it's more efficient or it's more effective to do so, but the operating system for the company has to change from 30 to 100, 300, 500, 1000 etc. You're looking at one example of something that we really want to be great at - building that immersive world that players really love and building the right team to do that, giving them the right structure - both the autonomy and freedom but also the right oversight. There's tons of those examples - things like mobile, responsive web, new client, SR visual update, all sorts of tech infrastructure, events, eSports, etc etc that we've gone through that cycle with before.
LeeDark (NA)
: There's no flip side to a lie. You have a bunch of people who want them re-released, and you always said, "They're discontinued, we aren't going back on that." Then it became, "They were discontinued, and we weren't going back on that, until we changed our minds." That's a lie. And your attempt to spin it otherwise only makes that worse. We can, as players, still enjoy a game even if, as a corporation, you don't respond to the players. Your convoluted non sequitor aside, his point can be easily shown in how you do not respond to the desires of a minority of players, even when the majority isn't against them. Of course, you respond when it is clear to you that an overwhelming number of players would feel strongly about a certain change. Take, however, the example of lore. The simple fact is that the majority do not care; plenty of them will read and enjoy whatever you put out, not really caring if it suddenly disappeared. The minority that actually care about the lore, as CupcakeTrap points out, do not even see a real attempt at communication or any evidence that you value player input. There are not enough of them to drastically affect your bottom line, so they are simply not important. Unfortunately for you, there is no counter-example to that argument. There are many examples where you bent to the will of an overwhelming number of players, but deciding, out of the goodness of your hearts, to do something for even an unopposed minority is not something I have ever seen. Furthermore, due to the utter lack of transparency from the company, even if there existed an example, we have no reason to believe it wasn't based on some other reason for change. My time is an investment I make in something I consider fun, which the game still largely is for me. My money, however, is something to which you no longer hold any claim. You have made numerous poor decisions about parts of the game I care a lot about, so despite the fact that there are several skins that have come out that I like, I refuse to give my money to a company that clearly does not care about the kind of player I am. It is possible to earn my money back, but there is no indication you are going to do what it takes to do that. The integrity of your intentions is just laughable. You're a corporation; your raison d'etre is to make money. On a personal level, YOU may care about the players because you are one. (I don't even know that you are one, though. Fortunately, that is irrelevant because...) As someone with a JOB, you have a responsibility ONLY to your investors to make money. Period. Pretending to care about the players in that context is just another lie in a long list of the lies the company has told when you didn't feel like it would hurt your bottom line.
> My time is an investment I make in something I consider fun, which the game still largely is for me. My money, however, is something to which you no longer hold any claim. You have made numerous poor decisions about parts of the game I care a lot about, so despite the fact that there are several skins that have come out that I like, I refuse to give my money to a company that clearly does not care about the kind of player I am. It is possible to earn my money back, but there is no indication you are going to do what it takes to do that. I'd much rather have your time than your money if I have to choose only one or the other. I'm always going to be disappointed (in ourselves) when one of our players feels like we don't care - and regardless of whether or not we always do the things that every play asks us to do or not - it's important to us that players feel like we care because we do care. We're growing into ourselves and there are bumps along the road, we make mistakes - we fall down and get back up. It's a chaotic environment and a growing company with a massive base of incredibly diverse players. We will never be able to make everyone happy - but we'll certainly never stop caring as long as myself, Tryndamere/Ryze/Zileas/etc are here at least.
LeeDark (NA)
: There's no flip side to a lie. You have a bunch of people who want them re-released, and you always said, "They're discontinued, we aren't going back on that." Then it became, "They were discontinued, and we weren't going back on that, until we changed our minds." That's a lie. And your attempt to spin it otherwise only makes that worse. We can, as players, still enjoy a game even if, as a corporation, you don't respond to the players. Your convoluted non sequitor aside, his point can be easily shown in how you do not respond to the desires of a minority of players, even when the majority isn't against them. Of course, you respond when it is clear to you that an overwhelming number of players would feel strongly about a certain change. Take, however, the example of lore. The simple fact is that the majority do not care; plenty of them will read and enjoy whatever you put out, not really caring if it suddenly disappeared. The minority that actually care about the lore, as CupcakeTrap points out, do not even see a real attempt at communication or any evidence that you value player input. There are not enough of them to drastically affect your bottom line, so they are simply not important. Unfortunately for you, there is no counter-example to that argument. There are many examples where you bent to the will of an overwhelming number of players, but deciding, out of the goodness of your hearts, to do something for even an unopposed minority is not something I have ever seen. Furthermore, due to the utter lack of transparency from the company, even if there existed an example, we have no reason to believe it wasn't based on some other reason for change. My time is an investment I make in something I consider fun, which the game still largely is for me. My money, however, is something to which you no longer hold any claim. You have made numerous poor decisions about parts of the game I care a lot about, so despite the fact that there are several skins that have come out that I like, I refuse to give my money to a company that clearly does not care about the kind of player I am. It is possible to earn my money back, but there is no indication you are going to do what it takes to do that. The integrity of your intentions is just laughable. You're a corporation; your raison d'etre is to make money. On a personal level, YOU may care about the players because you are one. (I don't even know that you are one, though. Fortunately, that is irrelevant because...) As someone with a JOB, you have a responsibility ONLY to your investors to make money. Period. Pretending to care about the players in that context is just another lie in a long list of the lies the company has told when you didn't feel like it would hurt your bottom line.
> Take, however, the example of lore. The simple fact is that the majority do not care; plenty of them will read and enjoy whatever you put out, not really caring if it suddenly disappeared. The minority that actually care about the lore, as CupcakeTrap points out, do not even see a real attempt at communication or any evidence that you value player input. There are not enough of them to drastically affect your bottom line, so they are simply not important. Unfortunately for you, there is no counter-example to that argument. There are many examples where you bent to the will of an overwhelming number of players, but deciding, out of the goodness of your hearts, to do something for even an unopposed minority is not something I have ever seen. Furthermore, due to the utter lack of transparency from the company, even if there existed an example, we have no reason to believe it wasn't based on some other reason for change. I'm not going to speak to lore just because it's not something that I'm close to internally. I know for sure though that for the things that I work on we always seek to find a balanced view of player opinion which includes vocal community members, (not just in NA English on the forums, but in 20+ languages and hundreds of different community platforms), real usage data and deep analytics, survey and other sentiment data and so on. Getting a well rounded perspective on how players feel about anything we do is important. > There are many examples where you bent to the will of an overwhelming number of players, but deciding, out of the goodness of your hearts, to do something for even an unopposed minority is not something I have ever seen. I don't think that's true - I think you've naturally selected yourself into a version of an unopposed minority that you personally believe that may be true for. We've made lots of changes to League of Legends that cater to a tiny minority of players (many bug fixes, master tier, programs for owners of fansites or other community advocates, folks who develop tech on top of LoL, artists, and many others). > The integrity of your intentions is just laughable. You're a corporation; your raison d'etre is to make money. On a personal level, YOU may care about the players because you are one. One of the things I speak a lot about internally is the idea of a healthy relationship being one where everyone wins. A lot of decision making at companies is, "what's the most that I can get out of my customer, vendor, employee, whoever while giving up the least" and that approach really doesn't exist here. There's a huge amount that we're willing to sacrifice in profitability in favor of the health and longevity of relationship with players. The balance in that relationship though means there's also going to be changes that we're going to make that some folks will be unhappy about. That's necessary to remain healthy. We also try to push context, we try to push honesty and integrity in decision making. These are critical concepts internally. Again it doesn't mean we've figured it all out The amount of people in the company who make decisions that involve trying to make money is tiny. We don't tie any performance management to revenue or profit either - so we really don't provide incentives for most to be thinking about revenue impact. We even track value and sentiment data like purchase regret (because we don't want any), and cost per hour of engagement time - all examples of ways we're trying to make certain we're providing huge amounts of value to our players.
: BUMP
You can sort by recently replied to view a version of the boards that's bumpable. Generally the reason we don't globally like bumping is because a huge part of this platform is a focus on relevance. We believe that the default view of the boards should be the one that is most relevant for viewers so as we build and optimized systems for visibility we are going to do it from the perspective of - how can I make the first few pages of content fresh, relevant and engaging for the person who is reading them. That naturally means that the balance of influence between the viewer and the poster has changed from forums - where the viewer experience is becoming more and more important which means if the poster wants visibility - the burden is kind of on you to make content that has appeal to others. The amount of content that gets posted every day (2000~ discussions, and 10k~+ total posts) is far too many for an individual to read through so naturally we're building some methods to prioritize and show people what they're most likely to be interested in. The system is really in its infancy though so I expect over time we'll be able to make pretty substantial improvements
Pryotra (NA)
: Well, when the shoe fits... Seriously though, I just wish they would stop straight up lying to their customers. As a S1 player, almost every single team under Riot has done this. Take the LE skins as an example. LE meant never to be sold again. Now it means "sold when Rito needs more money". I can now no longer trust *anything* riot says about skin sales anymore, because their one most basic promise was sold out to for some quick holiday money. Another example is how they treated the move over to the boards. No matter how you look at it, someone lied. They claimed that this platform was better for communication and using it would increase communication, forced everyone over here despite it not being ready and community protest, and now don't communicate any more than they used to, and *still* hide conversations on reddit without so much as a link over here. I think the biggest lie of all is that they don't actually listen. They do as they please, it is their game, and they will treat it as such. Then they get mad at us for not being happy with it, or their communication over it. This particularly is displayed time and time again by multiple teams, lore team is the most recent offender here, and if they were just straight up about it, and came out and said "yeah, this is how we are doing this. whether you like it or not is irrelevent." then I don't think there would be as much of an issue. Thing is, they expect to maintain their player oriented reputation, but do nothing to actually deserve it anymore. Since I started looking at their company like this, about 100% of their decisions make sense. Basically, laugh and point when they fail, but pray they don't accidentally their game.
> Seriously though, I just wish they would stop straight up lying to their customers. As a S1 player, almost every single team under Riot has done this. Take the LE skins as an example. LE meant never to be sold again. Now it means "sold when Rito needs more money". I can now no longer trust anything riot says about skin sales anymore, because their one most basic promise was sold out to for some quick holiday money. The flip side of this argument here is that if we don't sell them - there's a huge number of people who feel like we're not listening to them because "wtf Riot all you have to do is turn them on in the store and you're too lazy to do that." There's no clear answer in a lot of these cases so we often have to make decisions that will make some group of people unhappy. > I think the biggest lie of all is that they don't actually listen. They do as they please, it is their game, and they will treat it as such. If you believe that - you should quit. I'm serious. If you actually truly in your heart have this belief that we're an evil money-hungry company that doesn't care what players think then really you're just going to constantly look for evidence to support your world view and ignore any evidence to the contrary which is what it feels like you're doing here. League of Legends was built on a foundation of listening to players and making decisions based on our understanding of players want and need and I can make a strong argument that we're excellent at doing that with lots of supporting examples. Why would you invest your time and energy to us if you're not confident that we care about players, or that your words will have an impact to the decisions that we make? That doesn't mean that we don't make mistakes or shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes or that we don't always provide the right context for the controversial decisions that we make - but if you're really sitting there questioning not just our actions - but the integrity of our intentions, then the relationship that we have with you I'm not sure can be salvaged.
: Why is Riot Flaming a Thing
People expressing their opinion can certainly be healthy. Generally we'd prefer for feedback to always be constructive, rational, and actionable, but I'd rather people express than not express. Different types of mechanisms can certainly influence how people react. Forums can often represent a more extreme view than average just by the nature of who chooses to participate in them and the mechanics for certain content to become visible. We many methods to receive feedback and understand the perspective of players - we have community forums like these, reddit, etc. We have raw data - everything that happens in every game, we run lots of surveys, focus groups, usability tests and so on. Looking at many of these channels together gives us a healthy and balance view of what players feel.
Xengre (NA)
: > We're aware of the issue and actively working on a solution. Anyone who uses the exploit will certainly be punished appropriately. > > Generally in that situation - additional reports do nothing to increase our awareness or improve our ability or desire to address it as quickly as possible, so at this point more than anything you're just raising awareness to more folks who might want to try it. > > The other thing to note that "proof" in the sense of calling out an individual is certainly witch-hunting. We have technological means to identify and verify people who are doing this. Not mentioning such a major issue that will clearly blow up and have large scale mention of it on the forums, Reddit, and other media sites won't measurably decrease awareness, either.
We've mentioned it in a bunch of places and it's pretty well referenced
Xedrox (NA)
: i think its just a problem of communication...would be great that when topics like these are brought up, it could receive responses in a better way so players don't feel like nothing is being done although you are right also, in which you don't want to spread the news further...but to be honest if anyone uses the board/reddit i'm pretty sure all of them already know about it.
http://status.leagueoflegends.com/?en_US#na The service status was updated yesterday evening acknowledging our awareness of the issue.
darkdill (NA)
: Okay... we are reporting this BoRK hack, and the board mods say it's "witch hunting" to post proof?
We're aware of the issue and actively working on a solution. Anyone who uses the exploit will certainly be punished appropriately. Generally in that situation - additional reports do nothing to increase our awareness or improve our ability or desire to address it as quickly as possible, so at this point more than anything you're just raising awareness to more folks who might want to try it. The other thing to note that "proof" in the sense of calling out an individual is certainly witch-hunting. We have technological means to identify and verify people who are doing this.
Declined (EUNE)
: Healthy contributor.... I consider myself one of those, so could I get some response on this? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/5MA20hKF-the-limitations-of-boards It explains my current problems in regards to a huge post I've made over in the tips and tricks section, as I am trying to transfer a forum post onto the boards. Edit: Had posted the wrong link.
I think you linked to the wrong spot?
Hellmet (NA)
: > Getting people to develop the habit of reading the guidelines of every board before they post in the board generally is something that is only going to happen if people have to feel at least some of the pain/problems that they create by not reading an internalizing guidelines. Teach a man to fish and whatnot. > I just wanted to point out that I never and will ever read forum guidelines. If it's not intuitive enough for me to know what and where I'm supposed to post then it's not worth my time. You guys have made these new forums so obfuscated and not user friendly that it just isn't worth it anymore to be honest.
You really can't expect us to hand-hold you into being a healthy contributor if you have no desire to become one. There are two really important pieces of any online community platform - one is the platform and technology, and the other is the culture of the community. The platform needs to be intuitive and easy to use and understand - the culture which includes posting rules, acceptable content, etc is something that you have to be willing to learn and invest your time and effort into. I'm completely willing to accept that you may not be willing to do that - but then you have to be willing to accept that we're going to spend our effort on other people
Daen (NA)
: >There are still going to be some cases though where we may not explicitly provide the answer in-depth, but instead provide the path to the answering. In my experience managing boards - people generally don't want to RTFM. While I agree on not wanting to RTFM (who does, really), the implementation I have seen thus far of providing the path to an answer has been equal parts vague and frustrating. I can understand that having each moderator write a personalized response to each infraction would be inefficient, but giving the players zero information and passing them on to another source actually functions more like RTFM than just stating the reason. It's a lot easier to hear "here's what you did wrong and why, here is how to resolve it as per these rules" rather than "you did a thing wrong, read these rules". Two examples: --- "Hi Daen, Your content has been removed due to a violation of the following board rule: Adhere to Board Guidelines. <link to your already-deleted content so it just shows up as [Deleted]> Refer to [link to Board Guidelines] for more information." --- "Hi Daen, The following content has been removed due to a violation of the Boards Feedback culture guideline "But please, don't post League gameplay feedback or bug reports. This isn't the place for that". <link to content **that actually shows the content, not a [Deleted] comment**> Refer to [link to Board Guidelines] for more information." --- Which example is more compelling? In the first example, I am forced to read both the violation notification and the Board Guidelines just to see why my content was removed. In the second example, I am able to see why my content was removed within the notification and can refer to the Board Guidelines in the future when posting new content. I feel like you guys are erring on the side of abuse prevention rather than the fact your majority legitimately wants to contribute positively. It's a bit as though we (the community) aren't being trusted to post in a way the rest of the community would approve, and intentionally limiting information isn't necessarily the way to encourage people to post. It is beyond frustrating to receive a notification that you have done something wrong with no clear resolution, especially when the intent is good. It feels like a punishment rather than a way to guide contributors in the right direction. I understand that you want a clean forum for users, but the way to address that is to come down on *repeat offenders*, not first time mistakes. I honestly feel kind of bad about reporting threads that don't belong in Boards Feedback since I know what the notification feels like to receive, especially when it's clear the OP is just confused and new to the platform. It's like I'm condemning them.
Yah - we are not providing enough information right now and we want to provide more.
KilljoyX (NA)
: > **That** you don't like them is a single data point. The more insight we have, the more we can use it to inform how we build the platform here. Now that we know THAT you don't like them, you should tell us WHY you don't like them I don't really care about the upvote/downvote. Just let me have the old formatting back because this is the worst formatting I've seen since youtube comments.
Are you talking about bbcode versus markdown?
: Due to the nature of each Board having its own context, unique guidelines *do* make sense. Don't forget about the [Universal Rules](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/site-feedback/QMLzFo0N-universal-rules) that Riot has already implemented for the entire Boards system.
Totally agree here. Some rules are going to be universal and some are going to be narrow and specific. Generally I think over time we'll have a much greater number of boards (10x, 100x, 1000x++) and the boards will begin to develop more distinct subcultures. Some rules are universal - some will be highly localized.
: I get the feeling you have never before moderated a forum of any kind.
You're probably right, Test Account
: > **That** you don't like them is a single data point. The more insight we have, the more we can use it to inform how we build the platform here. Now that we know THAT you don't like them, you should tell us WHY you don't like them I did, as mentioned in ma post ya'll shouldn't be able to downboat or upboat before viewing the content.
Generally we have no evidence that people are doing this. If we saw that it was happening and that it was a problem - it's trivial to change. As far as we can tell there generally isn't a significant amount of vote abuse going on of any kind - people generally upvote more than they downvote, etc Actually we really want people to vote more
: I have been saying this ever since I posted an idea affecting gameplay and it got removed because "it was posted to the wrong board". Good to know that my idea affecting gameplay did not belong on the gameplay board. Makes sense. Also, they don't (or didn't) even tell me which post got removed, so hope you weren't busy on the boards or you would never know which post was deleted.
What was the idea?
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Pendragon

Level 76 (NA)
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