Mârty (NA)
: Re: Some thought on Support (@Meddler)
When I first started playing ranked (on one of my other accounts), there was no position select so I had to know all the roles. Often I’d get put in support; at first I was going aggressive supports until I played a little bit of Janna. I would build her full ap with a mejai’s and if I managed to not die until mid-late game I would get to give out 800 point shields with a bf sword to my adc of similar size and availability to late game ryze. If I would position correctly, I’d be rewarded with the ability to be very impactful in the game. If I miss positioned, I’d die and lose all my ap. One thing I’d like to point out is that even current deathcap is as desired on utility supports as it is on mid-laners. Mid-laners need to buy pen to do damage while utility supports simply want to stack ap because they are there to provide as much utility as possible without getting caught. The problem is, mid- laners are taking their items so the ap has to be nerfed to prevent oppressive use of support items in mid lane. I definitely agree with you on the point that supports are not being played because they do not feel as impactful or unique late game compared to other champ classes. I left a few comments below on specific ideas that you posted. > [{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MdYaqnPE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-15T02:58:28.029+0000) > **Solutions** > > Items for enchanters need to stop giving health, let them build AP. Enchanters have a ton of cool scaling that nobody even knows about. > > Did you know Janna's shield's AD buff and slow power scales with AP? > Did you know Nami's passive, E slow, and W bounce modify % scales with AP? > > Utility scaling was the best idea ever implemented (back in S4) but it was never expanded on. Utility scaling lets each support feel unique. When I purchase AP, I can feel my kit's power and my choice in champion select is more meaningful. > > I picked nami because I want to dish out fat heals in a fight, while dishing out fat damage and lots of CC. > I picked Janna because I want to dish out a really fat shield and a really fat AoE heal at a cost of putting out damage myself. > I picked Sona because I want to augment the hell out of my entire team. > I picked Lulu because I want to specifically augment one hyper carry on my team beyond belief. > > That identity means far less because items built don't support them as late game approaches. Agreed, ap utility supports should stack ap and should be squishy. > **Sightstone** - Being forced to pick up a ruby crystal before leading to sightstone feels bad. I don't want health all the time. I want to be able to choose which stat to start with. > > Let a sightstone be built out of more items. Amplifying tome -Sightstone, Sapphire Crystal -Sightstone would be great starts. The Eye items were a good concept, and personally I enjoyed building EOTW. I don't have an exact mapping of how new starting sightstones can evolve into eye items, but the main point here is sightstones need to not force health on users. Let us choose what stat we want to purchase early. Agreed, you should be able to get early ap from a sightstone for which he ap sightstone item would build into ward items of similar stats to what we have now. Sightstone would either build out of health crystal or amp tome. > **Mikael's Crucible** - This item still doesn't give AP. I don't know why. It is clearly tailored towards enchanters since it offers heal/shield power, but heal/shield power doesn't buff utility scalings. Chalice improvements would indirectly improve crucible as well. Remove the MR, give it some AP, and then separate the identities of crucible and athene's based on what I need that game (direct, burst heal+cc cleanse or battle-based sustain?). This item, I have always wanted to buy it but never understood who the build path or stats were designed for. Tanks supports want the resistances and the active to save their carries but the item builds out of nothing but faerie charms. Ap supports can use the mana regen and cdr but cannot use much of the other stats. Removing the mr and replacing it with about 40 ap would make it more useful for its buyers. > **Utility Deathcap** - We need a late game dream buy. There isn't some high-power spike that exists for enchanters. Tank supports get beefier with every purchase and their tank stats multiply with each other. Enchanters just get... more actives. That exist independently of each other. I’m not sure it is needed but it would be cool I guess. I think the regular deathcap would actually be buyable if other support items gave ap to help with support scaling. Adding the utility scaling may bring back obnoxious picks like bruiser karma top with void staff full tank and utility deathcap. > **Frost Queen's Claim** - This item saw a ton of nerfs because mid laners started purchasing it. Make FQC great again - buff its stats, raw ap, etc. In exchange, only allow a player to upgrade frost fang to FQC after reaching a certain threshold with tribute's passive. Mid laners will have a very difficult time stacking up frostfang, whereas supports can do it easily. This lets the item be powerful without seeing it appear in mid lane builds. Jungle items are gold efficient but locked to smite, let's lock support items to the very thing that defines them - gold generating items. This is an awesome idea, maybe even give it 40 ap with tribute passive scaling it to 60 ap once fully stacked or something along those lines. > **Vision Game** - With respect to enchanters, often keeping up with the vision game becomes very difficult. The new vision plants, frost queen's claim (pre-nerf), and blue trinket have all helped that. Unfortunately, a soraka just can't secure vision as well as a thresh/bard/alistar etc. Soraka just isn't threatening to run into, yet supports are expected to be the vision controllers. > > Enchanters need a few more tools to allow them to control vision - or, help distribute that responsibility across the entire team. I too think the main concern with lategame warding for utility supports is that it’s too dangerous to do their job. Part of what makes Zyra such a good support is that her plants provide temporary vision so that she never has to facecheck bushes. If the ap warding item “eye of the watchers” had a 30 second cooldown charge for a 1 second ward, it could be used to scout the way for them before face checking, giving unique benefits specify tailored to their role. Similar to talons q, if activated at a longer range, it would use the temporary ward whereas using it at a shorter range would use up a sightstone ward and one of its charges.
Rioter Comments
: Hi. No promises, but Meddler and I have discussed this and are talking about testing some changes out.
Thank you on both fronts, for both taking the time to read and discuss this post and for reworking Skarner last fall. The E into Ult auto mechanic is really satisfying to use against assassins :D ---------------------- Please pay special attention to Skarner once the buff timers go live. Enemies will have more notice of where Skarner will be in 60 seconds so "take his spire and we can ambush him" and "he'll be here or I take his buff" will happen more often. What I really wanted to address is the uneven information split and time cost on the spire-taking mechanic, not necessarily change how much info you get. Right now the enemy can clear my camps safely but I can't do the same safely in their jungle unless I don't use my passive. The global should be delayed when taken by Skarner always, unless the medium sized spire radius (the small spire taking availability radius) is warded. You should need to ward spires the same as you need to ward Eve's camps to know where Skarner is immediately. I want to make sure the spires aren't a liability to me or my team via map pressure/information on my whereabouts while making sure there is counterplay to Skarner's spires.
: How about no, Skarner Master/Main here, his spires are fine as is Both junglers being able to guesstimate the other's location by spire capture is fine, the difference between a skarner in spire and out is HUGE. You have no idea how frustrating it would be on both sides to go to an area expecting to be significantly stronger only to be horribly wrong because the map lied to you, saying you would be more powerful in that area when the power is long gone. My map movements are greatly influenced by the spires, if I notice the enemy jungler has left a spire in their jungle under my control im invading as soon as I have a safe chance to fuck their face. Imagine if I went there and got fucking ambushed/destroyed because i expected to have way more dueling power. Conversely if you think your jungle is safe because the mini map says the relic is yours, and you go into that side of jungle only to get viciously mauled by a skarner. its a recipe for frustration on both ends. Spire tracking works both ways and creates an interesting problem for the enemy jungler to address in their own way depending on their champ. A farming jungler probably cares less about hidden pressure and may take every relic for the extra gold + tracking of skarner, while a gank heavy jungler might ignore them to hide their presence putting them at more risk if they do get caught near one. One might argue that its unfair for skarner to be tracked for doing what he is supposed to, its kinda like Illaoi being tracked which riot fixed. My counter to that is that while it does allow skarner/any other champ who caps it to be tagged immediately, the increased mobility granted from the relics + speed shrines + W allows him to astonishingly move about the map so that is less of an issue. Yeah you know he is in bot side river, but he can vacate the area and reposition far faster than other junglers. Riot PLEASE don't touch the spires, not like this at least. The amount of people here talking about skarner despite a majority likely not having any extensive play on him is too damn high. Yes his relics are gimmicky, no they aren't noob traps. A Skarner in his relic can out duel a lot of early game junglers by sheer brute force of higher stats. I would equate Skarner to a Shyvana with CC. Great duelist, can burn down camps though a bit slower than shyv, has better ganks than shyv, fantastic map mobility, and scales into an absolute monster
I have many many games on Skarner. I've played him into pretty well anything you can think of. If I want to counterjungle a Skarner right now I'll take the spire as I see him, capturing it as he gets to me and he'll have nowhere to run. Baiting him into fighting me without a spire. I've played old old Skarner (before the crystal venom passive) but back then the only way to get to them was flashing on them. I mained crystal venom Skarner (this is when I really picked him up because he became reliable.) When you wanted to invade/counterjungle you just walked into their jungle. The rework given to Skarner last fall tied his kit to his ultimate. His ult was kinda random before this rework (not for the champ, but the kit). The ult was tied so nicely into his kit that I didn't mind the spires taking some of his base stats. They even took the ramping ms/att spd from his Q but it didn't matter because now you can make picks so much more effectively. Now you can actually lock down an assassin with him without wasting your ult if your team focuses the target down. This new rework when I go to counterjungle as Skarner, I usually don't take the spire. The map pressure you lose is more valuable than the spire buff. If I do though, I spend 2-3 seconds taking the Spire to waste another second walking back to the camp to clear it before finally recalling for 8 seconds or leaving (more than likely the second one since they'll be on your face by then). For an enemy, they go into my jungle and don't take the spire, clear my camps and then either wait for me in ambush or recall while taking my spire, wasting no time (out in 6 seconds since you can recall at the same time). The neutral spires even tell which side you start so the enemy can countergank you easily. The buff timers this patch will make this worse, since the enemies have notice of where Skarner will be in 60 seconds so "take his spire and we can ambush him, he'll be here or I take his buff" Or they can invade while he's clearing it because "he took the spire guys he's clearing red buff." Just because the instant feedback is helpful information to have, it doesn't mean both teams are getting the same amount of information from it or at the same cost. This thread was meant to address the uneven information split and time cost on the spire-taking mechanic, not necessarily change how much info you get. I want to make sure the spires aren't a liability to my team via map pressure/information on my whereabouts. Right now my team pays, not me.
Lupxel (EUW)
: It wouldn't be bad, if Riot want to keep passive to do the follow: Every X minutes, Skarner can choose to _active_ his passive; During that time he can use R on a sprite and drag him to wheener he wants for X seconds. The sprites remain where they ended until Skarner re-replaces it again. What you think?
They are going to take another look at Skarner when they rework some of the fighters I can not find the exact post but Riot Repertoire said he was not satisfied with Skarner's Q and his passive, so they will possibly be the the focus of SKarner's next rework. Riot Repertoire said a few things about skarner and the mage update if you are interested. here is the link to his question and answer. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ll6gkAek-heres-a-post-where-you-can-ask-questions-about-the-stuff-ive-worked-on-and-ill-try-to-answer?show=rundown
: OR, or or or... revert this trash rework and give him back his crystal venom passive so he's once again the sticky inescapable monster he's supposed to be.
Despite how negative some people may feel about the some of skarner rework and although his q is now a sheen slave and his passive is not the most desirable of passives; He did gain a few tools from his rework which are arguably more desirable then his old passive. Skarner now has a more durable shield, so he can retain his movement speed a little longer, the ability to gank mid lane more effectively, and most importantly, movement speed while using his ultimate. One of the problems with pre-rework Skarner is, his ultimate was not threatening enough to warrant respect. One of the most valuable things Skarner got from his rework was having his ultimate interact with the rest of his kit. Before, you would use your ultimate on someone and they would not move much at all, or in an assassin's case dash to safety after you use your ultimate, while you take half your health worth of damage for being in the middle of 5 people. Now, you can fracture (e) the assassin, bring him to your team with your ultimate, and immediately stun them so they can be focused down (using it to make picks) or ultimate whoever is diving your carries (peel in team-fights). I'm not saying that his new passive is perfect. It definitely needs another pass; but I do think Skarner's rework made him a little more versatile in what he already did.
SoMNia (NA)
: Because other champions have similar strengths in terms of clears and objective control while avoiding this unprecedented weakness, that leaves him disadvantaged in a way that directly relates to fundamental principles and mechanics (i.e. maintaining vision control and responding to your enemy's positioning). Because the drastic reduction in availability of wards made additional map info that much more valuable, thus increasing the weakness. Because capitalizing on his movements across the map should require you to put effort into knowing where he is, like every other champion in the game. Because other champions with minigames that put info on the map (like Kindred and Illaoi) have received considerations that prevent them from giving their position away to enemies who don't have vision, and it's only fair to give him the same treatment.
Skarner's spires do give him massive attack speed for taking neutral objectives, but often hiding your jungle position is almost always more desirable than having more attack speed for jungle clears. Looking at Kindred mark again (lamb's mark this time since she chooses "marks champs"): it can be used to create jungle pressure across the map, making it seem like you want to kill them, so they have to play passive. Skarner's spires have the reverse effect. If you retake a spire or take an enemy spire across the map, the enemy can play aggressive since they know it gives instant feedback on Skarner's location. The wise and more undesirable choice to make as Skarner is to not take the spires and spend an additional 6 seconds clearing the camp. This is to prevent multiple people collapsing on you before you even finish clearing the camp and also does not give away your position. I believe the spires were originally intend to make skarner a better counter jungler which they do not do safely enough to warrant using. Another important side note is, you do not get indirect vision from spires until they are fully taken. This means that the enemy can finish clearing your camps and recall while taking the spire to base losing no time at all, while you have to waste 2 seconds not clearing the camp before you can start counter jungling.
  Rioter Comments
: Game anyone? Password inside!!!
if it is normal summoners rift, I would like to do my 1000th win as jungle if possible =)
Rioter Comments
: NINJA nerf to Poppy's q (Hammer Shock) after casting e (Heroic charge)
it fixes what direction your q will be aimed if you use it a specific time after using your e. So you can aim your q backwards and you will still q forwards when used after an e regardless of if it hits terrain. It can also be misleading to the poppy player if they do not add an additional tool tip to explain what is happening.
: Riot please don't keep the Poppy E+Q interaction
I made a similar thread about this issue as it also handicaps you wild trying to e q the jungle camps to get the stun and AOE damage onto the camps. Making her e prioritise champions when there is a minion very close to them would benefit Poppy a lot more then these changes. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UQPXgnA3-ninja-nerf-to-poppys-q-hammer-shock-after-casting-e-heroic-charge
Rioter Comments


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