Kei143 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Phreak,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JRFyKia5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-19T23:56:38.545+0000) > > <3. Thank you for playing! Wait, phreak posts here? I thought he was an exclusive reedit user. Hi2u phreak!!! Love your casts and the phreak shows. Your pins are horrible, but it's so horrible that it makes me laugh.
> [{quoted}](name=Kei143,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JRFyKia5,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-20T01:48:56.596+0000) > > Wait, phreak posts here? > > I thought he was an exclusive reedit user. > > Hi2u phreak!!! Love your casts and the phreak shows. Your pins are horrible, but it's so horrible that it makes me laugh. Thanks! I post on the Boards really rarely, TBH, but I look through once in a while.
: A thank you to all of Riot for the stuff that you do that nobody thanks you for :)
: @Phreak is it time?
I, uh. Uhm. I got nothing :( . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bro.
Griftrix (NA)
: Hello. I'm Griftrix, and have worked at Riot almost 6 years. I have been almost entirely on the team that makes new champions (and all it's flavors over the years as it evolved), and specialize in animation tech. Thresh auto attacks, Rek'sai's tail, Aurelion Sol's tail, anything with tails apparently are some of the things I've worked on. I recently spent some time off champions making the new health bars (hope you love them!). Also, thanks for the super handy list of questions. I will organize my answers in kind. 1. I (we, my team) play nearly daily. ESPECIALLY new patch day, so we can "test our stuff on live". I say it like it's a joke, but honestly, we've found and fixed some pretty decent health bar bugs and feature improvements from doing this. Apologies if the bugs annoyed you before we could fix them. 2. In my personal experience, I feel like we can make big changes. I won't say easily, because big changes on a living game that ships frequently isn't easy. We have developed skills in working with that, and strategies for managing risk and fixing things on the fly so we can hopefully minimize risk. We try not to hold code sacred, and if something makes sense to change, we will carefully change it. We are also generally aware of which parts of the code have more side effects than others, so we know when to be super careful. 100% don't feel like a cog in my experience. It's not the wild west, but things aren't all red tapey either. 3. Other areas might have totally different mileage with "new technologies" than game. I don't really know how much we look at different back end, web, server, or whatever other technologies. My impression is that there are always discussions about these sorts of things. As far as new game techniques, it's brought up from time to time, and we do what is right. Sometimes it's use it, sometimes it's not. We have been able to experiment with new render materials you may have noticed (iridescence with Xaya and Rakan's capes/wings). The stuff for Aurelion was all new things, and it turns out, pretty useful on other champs and skins as well, so I'm very happy with how that turned out. As a tip for other developers, the easier you make your things for people to use, the more it will be used. I'm no super star on this front, but I try to make my stuff intuitive, and the times I actually manage it, it pays off. 4. I almost never work evenings or weekends, with a minor exception for when we were in the final month of shipping the new health bars. I could have not worked evenings or weekends if I wanted to. No one would have argued with me. We would have just adjusted the plan and moved forward. I was pretty excited about what we were doing and I wanted it to turn out as good as we could. Also, I sometimes work well in bursts of energy, so times when things were clicking I didn't want to stop. We have on call schedules for all areas of things as far as I can think of. I was on call a couple of days ago. I have been called while on call before. It's 100% a triage job. Find out how to get things back to good asap, which could mean fix and redeploy in the worst cases, or disable a thing in the best cases. We do a set rotation with free self service swaps as needed so we can actually make plans. We trade when we're planning vacation or something like that. I personally will always accept an on call shift trade if I am able, and the person wanting the trade clicks the buttons for me (I feel that's a fair compromise). 5. Oh man, what a fantastic question. The broad answer is culture. The specifics are things like learning/mentoring attitudes, playing and loving games, communication and respect for others and stuff like that. If someone is a jerk, it's pretty easy to not want to hire them. There is no amount of technical skill that will make me want to hire a rude or disrespectful person. Those people kill teams. There are obviously lots of facets of things here, but I would have to spend LOTS of time to do it justice. I hope you get a good impression from this small section I wrote. The abridged answer is that I (we) care about those things very much. 6. I really really really like the people I work with. They are 100% the best thing about Riot. They are all smart, kind, incredibly talented individuals that have lots of different skills that I don't have, and that makes me very happy. I also have a D&D group every Friday that I very much look forward to. We're level 8 right now, and exploring the forbidden library, looking for an ancient relic to stop some demon summoning. We're about to enter the basement, where there sounds like bad things live. Sorry, I get really excited about D&D. We have a great office, with lots of nice things, but it's really the people. There is a slack channel where we just talk about games. I use it as my brain trust to help me find games I will love. People are so good at listening and describing the GIGANTIC combined library of games the hundreds of people in there have played, that I can usually find something really awesome for myself to enjoy. The foodie channel is very reliable in finding great places to eat in LA and all over the world. I know these may sound like little things, but it's just examples that come from working with great people. I dunno about things I would change. There are no major standouts in my mind.any minor things I just talk about and we figure out, then I forget them. Anyway, hope you liked this. I just write how I speak, so it's a bit... much. Thanks for asking! -Griftrix
I play D&D with Griftrix. Can confirm he's not lying about that. Otherwise don't trust him. He's evil.
Sparkle (NA)
: I really liked Secret Stash in the old system (and I really like Biscuit Delivery in the new one, go figure lol). Biscuits are my _jam_ ;)
: Phreak is there. All is good :D
Shdw jho (NA)
: Basically riot putting the final nail in {{champion:429}} 's coffin
> Implying Rend isn't an ability LUL
: Stats are easily manipulated. Especially when you are combining 1-3 man queues. It doesn't address what people want to know about, the solo queue players.
Keep in mind that some of these are the exact same populations/segmentation as the previous post. Kinda hard to mess with that.
: First thing that comes to mind is, what's "What's stopping adc's from getting this item?" Most adc's can do enough burst to make use of the nightfall passive and the rest of the stats work great on them. The more castery adc's (Lucian, graves) will like the massive amount of ad it gives as well.
In addition to what Axes said, in general as an ADC you just don't have room for an item that gives AD and nothing else. I can't see this beating Bloodthirster, LDR, or a second Zeal item. I'd be surprised if this item found itself useful on marksmen.
: Outer towers are almost useless they die so fast
Mathematically, Outer Turrets are more durable than they were in 5.21 at all points of the game.
Mansana (NA)
: @Phreak @Meddler Any reason why Aatrox's Blood Price does not proc lifesteal?
Pretty much no spells apply life steal. The only ones that do are quite special: Parrrley and Mystic Shot are fairly obvious examples of this. Otherwise, you should never consider skill damage to apply lifesteal. The ones that do are auto-attack replacements.
Meanie40 (NA)
: This is Riot saying "Dammit, you're a Support. STAY OUT OF THE OTHER LANES!!!!!!" Riot has a history of forcing Support champions solely into the Support role (see, for example, the Soraka rework). Meanwhile, if a non-Support champion becomes a Support (Morgana, Trundle, Nautilus), that's perfectly fine.
No, Lulu is fine in either. See: Lulu, Karma, Zyra working in both. Varus, Ezreal, Corki working Mid/Bot. Nautilus working Top/Support. You're injecting your own assumed intent and cherry-picking examples and saying, "Yep, this is a pattern." The issue with Soraka is that consistent self-healing often ends up being extremely problematic, as once you hit enough mana regen to keep the spell up, you no longer have gameplay in the lane. Lulu may not be super common in NA/EU. But she is almost 100% red side ban or blue side first pick in both Korea and China and finally growing in Western popularity. League of Legends is played globally and honestly, the Asian teams just end up being faster at picking up on this. In short: Lulu is overpowered in solo lanes right now. So let's circle back to these changes. Most mid lane and some top lane matchups are magic damage focused. Very few bottom lane matchups are. Her durability is now roughly equal vs physical (plus, hp5, damage blocking via the defensive masteries, potions, and her shield further inflate the value of armor) but definitely weaker vs. magic. Thus, Lulu is weaker in solo lane matchups more than in support matchups. Plus the Spellthief buffs on her.
: Can you make it so the scale of the hud could be reduced lower? Because right now it is really large.
It can be scaled. I've played on the lowest scale and it's noticeably smaller while still making all the lettering and numerals legible.
Sxli (NA)
: How can I get out of bronze
I would say there are 3 big things: 1. Your general mechanics and gameplay. You say you're already consistently working on these, so that's good. But as a specific question: In a 1v0 game, how often do you get 100cs at 10 minutes? Every time? Rarely? Being able to get a ton of farm is a really big deal. This goes hand-in-hand with your teamfight positioning, as making sure you're using that gold is a big deal. 2. General map play. A big farm of getting gold is not letting minion wave die for free. You should be getting 200cs at 20 minutes, 300cs at 30. That's not realistic for every single game you play, and even the pros don't get that all to often. But if you're at 120cs in a 30 minute game, that's 100% on you. Don't lose out on the gold and experience minions give. You have to learn to balance that with joining your team for fights, but as an ADC this is important. Also, don't get caught out. Any time you die, it's your fault. In a team fight? Probably bad positioning. In lane? Didn't see the gank coming. In the middle of the map? Shouldn't have been out in front. 3. Minor shot-calling. Players generally are able to understand a good idea when they see it. If you ace them, you're all full health, and you ping Baron, everyone'll go "Oh yeah! We can Baron!" and probably follow you. Don't give up opportunities like that.
: Who should I get for support, Leona or Nami?
Had to come for the ward pun. Leona is the more swingy of the two. And I think she's also better at sort of signalling "GO!" to your team. Solar Flare tends to get people moving. Nami's definitely strong and one of my more-played supports. She's consistently powerful but lacks some of the big play moments, or at least they're harder to land. So to your points: 1. Nami is a more consistent laner. But Leona can guarantee kills if your lane's stronger. Failure case is worse for Leona. 2. Leona is definitely a top-tier team fighter. Big moments with her stuns. Nami is average. 3. Both are good late game. Leona's riskier, but is better at starting fights lategame.
Bârd (NA)
: Please, lcs
Alright I promise if there ends up being a Nerf team that wins Worlds I'll personally push every day for Nerf Irelia the skin.
: Maybe using a champion's usage in the LCS isn't the best way to gauge their usability in other tiers. You should probably be looking at the champion's usage and play-ability in all levels of play, instead of the smallest possible percentile. IMO
It's definitely not the only thing we look at. Pick and ban rates can show us popularity or perceived power. Win rates sliced by MMR, mastery, etc. are other ways. There's guys way better than me at it who actually look really closely at this kind of stuff. I'm mostly just posting anecdotes since I like replying to things. And in general, from my experience Zac is strong enough.
: Now that we've buffed Aatrox's passive can we make Zac's revive passive better, being smiteable and a 5 minute cool down make it feel pretty useless,i get you guys don't care about him but pls{{champion:154}}
Undefeated in 3 games in the LCS this split. Feels pretty far from weak IMO
Imberdan (NA)
: What part of your brain think that Trundle ult counter Alistar ult? Trundle ult steals armor and MR while Alistar ult just simply reduces damage taken by 70%(except true damage). Hence he gets kited so easily by champions you mentioned above.
Trundle ulti steals DR, too.
: and yet he created accounts and played anyways
We decided to focus more on reform than on punishment. We stopped the "Ban accounts on sight" mantra, but would still ban accounts that showed extreme toxicity.
Akmatrix (NA)
: But normal players can do that and get a ranked ban for months... We're holding this player to a lower standard than the average joe.
His ladder accounts are not above Tribunal action. There's no one going in and saying, "Yo, drop this guy's Ranked suspension, CLG likes him."
: Freak complaining about 7 ping? Yuppies and their first world ping problems...
: Basic Rune Pages Suggestions
I actually made a video on that topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTkqqx1kqs Hope this helps!
: Need a new "carry" jungle for playing with silver/bronze friends
Olaf! Mops up lanes super well and no one knows how to deal with him because no one plays him.
: When ganking bot lane, is it better to target the ADC or the support?
Ganks are more about gold income than holding someone down. So more just ask yourself, "Who's more likely to die?" Sona has no escapes and is fairly squishy. Tristana has Rocket Jump. Kalista can pull her support back. Thresh has lantern. You just have to assess from their kits, cooldowns, and positioning, who's more likely to die.
: How do you prove to your teammates that you're the best option to call shots?
I don't really think you can. It's really hard to get random strangers to listen to each other. The best way I've found is to simply do straightforward calls via smart ping. Essentially, they'll see the direction on the map and decide on their own "is this a good idea?" Assuming all your ideas are good, they'll just follow it because it makes sense to them. Like when you get a gank bot lane, and you ping the turret, people will typically go, "huh, yeah, I guess we can kill that" and just kill it with you.
: Mid Champs that Double for other roles?
Karma, mid/top/support Kennen, mid/top Vladimir, mid/top Ezreal, mid/adc Swain, mid/top Karthus, mid/jungle Morgana, mid/top/support Jarvan, mid/top/jungle Honestly, I wouldn't worry much about whether you've seen the champion in a while. No one saw Viktor ever until... well about 2 weeks ago and now everyone's playing him. I would never correlate popularity with strength if I were you.
: How do you play ADC in Bronze?
There three easy ways to be a stronger ADC in Bronze: 1. Learn how to last hit. Aim for 100 cs by ~11 minutes. There's going to be a lot of randomness in it all, but getting out of lane with farm is important. 2. Learn how to keep your farm up. You can't typically get 10 cs per minute for the entire game, but try to never be more than 100 behind. Always have at least 300 cs in a 40 minute game, etc. If you find yourself falling far behind this mark, you need to get back to lanes better instead of grouping for no gain. 3. Don't die. Honestly, it's Bronze. There's a lot of randomness and a lot of crazy silly engages. Don't be the guy who gets picked off. Grouping can be hard, getting objectives can be hard. But at the end of the day, if you're the 6 item AD Carry and you're not the first one to die, you're probably going to win teamfights.
: Half exp from gromp...
Two ways to get 1/2 a level of XP from your first camp: You get killing blow and someone else is within the small XP radius. Your teammate got the killing blow and you were alone in the small XP radius.
: How do you become a shout caster for the LCS?
Best advice I can give is to get started. Cast tournaments. Host your own or partner up with someone who already does. Stream it. Watch your recordings. Watch current casters and learn from them. There's not a lot of training out there right now. It's something I'd like to create at some point, but it's mostly self-driven.
  Rioter Comments
: I'm going out on a limb here and say that riot's probably tweaking kalista and her AS problem, and thought that this would be a wonderful addition to the ADCs. They'll be like, "instead of fixing kalista's animation, let's just buff attack move in general as compensation and forget about fixing the problem all together :D"
Nah, these are pretty separate. Riot designers work on solo work more than you may expect. They all collaborate and ask for advice and what not, but something like this is probably Vesh saying, "Hey, I want to make a-click not suck." Then he designed a system, put it into an internal playtest, and said, "Hey guys, let me know how this works for you." There may have been something between "Hey" and implementation, but I can virtually guarantee you it wasn't CertainlyT saying, "Meh, forget Kalista fixes, let's do something totally different."
Vesh (NA)
: Experimental attack-move change going to PBE
There seems to be some confusion on the wording: When Vesh is saying "Currently" he means "What happens right now on the Live servers, the game you played yesterday." PBE has a *NEW* system, that is not referred to by the term "currently"
Vince513 (NA)
: Tips and tricks for Ashe
Max W then Q. Infinity Edge is your best friend. If you want to pick someone off, it's R -> Auto attack -> W, and have Frost Shot turned on. The auto-crit from the passive gives you a lot of burst. The biggest thing to remember with Ashe is to pick your engagements though. You can start a fight with R of course, but also realize that you're slow and have no mobility tools, so not getting caught is a big deal.
DropFill (NA)
: Should I maximize Leblanc Q or W first?
Typically I see W maxed first on LeBlanc because it provides you the ability to actually clear your minion waves.
: Champion Update: Alistar
STEERing him though the champ-up workshop? I see what you did there, Riot.
: The issue isn't that people find him fun, the issue is that *a large part of his fun is that he's overpowered as hell*, and also that being fun is not an excuse for being immune to nerfs and, as LankPants points out, *an S-tier pick for 2.5 years, at least*. Plenty of other champs are just as fun as Lee Sin and many, including myself, would argue they're MORE fun, but they're not picked anywhere near as much. Because Lee Sin is far more powerful.
That's the crux of my argument: For you and me, the guys who aren't playing in LCS, **Lee Sin is not overpowered**. He wins less games than Fiddlesticks. He wins less games than Amumu. Hell, he wins less games than Support Sion (actual fact). He is literally not overpowered in solo queue. The argument for top-tier LCS-level play, I can't definitively say. I just suspect that the popular picks are overrated. The results speak for themselves. If Lee Sin was actually overpowred (like launch Rek'Sai, or 4.20 Warwick overpowered) you'd see obnoxious winrates. You don't, because he's not overpowered. He just feels incredible to play, and very honestly, obnoxious to play against for many players. It may FEEL overwhelming, and I am not here to dispute that, but he is not **factually** overwhelming.
: Hey Phreak. Sorry about the last post I made about AD TF. Seemed like you already answered it before I got to look at the comments. So I had a few questions: Is it really that hard to compensate a support? Because 2 of the 4 problematic supports got reworked while the other 2 suffer from high mana costs for almost the same utility. Also can we live in a League of Legends world where support Lulu can build to do damage or not suffer from crazy mana costs whenever she tries to poke? Also, what was the motive behind Soraka's base AD nerf? Considering her lack of a true escape (although she has the Bananambulance passive) and reliable damage source, why was lowering her base AD a choice? Wouldn't that be considered as interacting with an opponent? Finally, is there any tips you could give in building Kalista? Following your spotlight gave a lot of insight but I have a problem choosing between IE and Statikk. If i had 1500 gold, would I go for BF sword and attack slowly, or buy the bits of statikk shiv? Or is Bork also a good choice as a first rush?
Which supports are you referring to? I'm happy to discuss your feelings on specific champions. Lulu's Q mana cost got bumped up because of support Lulu being obnoxious in lane. A 40 mana cost medium-long range skillshot that doesn't obey minion blocking is just... well it's pretty oppressive. For Soraka, I don't know. I don't remember when or why that happened. The change I do remember for her was lowering her base HP5 so that her fairly non-interactive healing required interaction to keep her health up (using and landing her nuke) For Kalista I'd recommend always finishing your IE first. There's really no reason to bump your attack speed when you're likely to get better returns off of more AD.
LankPants (OCE)
: You can't judge power by win-rate allone like you are trying to with Sona/Janna. There's another factor that applies to Sona especially, **she doesn't make plays**. By extension this also means she doesn't make mistakes. She's not winning her teams more games, she just losing them less. In comparison a lot of players who play Thresh will take riskier hooks and often just feed the enemy team kills. Thresh has more power as a champ, he can impact a game more than Sona but he can also impact it negativity while Sona can't unless she's trolling. Pro's pick riskier champs because **they have more power**. The pros don't often make stupid mistakes when they play Lee/Thresh so they get to use their full bullshit levels of power. There's nothing arbitrary about it at all, pros pick the most overpowered champions as they always have, I'm sure you can find any number of pro players stating this. >They're picking to play things they enjoy playing. This is bullshit, a lot of players will just mirror what ever they see pro players play and not question why they are doing it.
Yes, some will. Obviously there is some minor influence on perceived power -> pick rate. But Lee Sin's been one of the most popular champions in the game forever, WAY before he was considered an A or S-tier jungler. I mean ask yourself, REALLY how many Zileans did you see in Ranked around the World Championship. Every game? The same pick rate as the players in the tournament? Yeah you probably saw a couple when people went to try it out, but it's not nearly to the same scale.
DeusVult (NA)
: I have to upvote you for the good imput, but the fact that you bring up win rates and pick rates kinda disgusts me. Win rates have nothing to do with champion power in matchmaking. The majority of champs who have a small % pick rate have an above 50% win rate. In fact, many of the champs who have a really high win rate, top 10, are niche picks who have sub-par pick rates. For instance, WW and Rammus both had really high win rates during 2014 (before the jungle change) but had really low pick rates and were considered lackluster junglers. But against an AD team, Rammus will win almost every game. Warwick is one of my favorite picks against teams whose mid is a crazy assassin (ie fizz, kat, akali, etc). Ult them and the game is won because you lock them down. On the other hand, champs who are considered OP or strong, such as Lee Sin or Thresh see staggering pick rates, but have poor win rates. But that's because more people play them, aren't as good with them as someone with over 1000 games on a niche champion, and since they are picked more, they are in more games to lose. Win rates mean nothing, but pick rates really show most champions power potential IMO. There are some cases for such champs as janna, but 90% of the time you don't look at champs in the bottom 10 of pick rates and go "there's definitely a diamond there that no one knows about or uses"
You also bring up a good point with champion familiarity. There's truth to that. For example, Fiora is the most-mained champion in League of Legends. What I mean by that is that the average Fiora game is backed by more experience than the average Zed game, Yasuo game, Akali game, etc. So there's truth to that. But again, League of Legends is the most played online game in the world. We can slice data pretty finely and still get incredibly reliable statistics. We can look at something like "win rate for # of games played." We can take EVERYONE's first Lee Sin game and average it. We can specifically take just for the relevant patches anyone who played Lee Sin for the first time, second time, third time, onward, and make a very convincing line graph for learning curve. Even the Lee Sin experts aren't pushing ludicrous win rates. It's also a flatter curve than you'd expect. A few patches ago when we updated the "Difficulty" scores of all our champions, that's where a lot of the information came from. Singed and Udyr actually have massive learning curves since they don't have an "Out" button. Experts actually have incredibly high win rates on those champions (above the norm for other expertly piloted champions) But again, I just have to really urge you to consider that Ban rates are certainly indicative of **perceived** power (Yasuo alert - Lowest winrate in the game, highest ban rate in the game. You're literally helping yourself lose by banning him), but pick rates are really not influenced as much as you'd think. People pick what they enjoy playing, first and foremost.
DeusVult (NA)
: I have to upvote you for the good imput, but the fact that you bring up win rates and pick rates kinda disgusts me. Win rates have nothing to do with champion power in matchmaking. The majority of champs who have a small % pick rate have an above 50% win rate. In fact, many of the champs who have a really high win rate, top 10, are niche picks who have sub-par pick rates. For instance, WW and Rammus both had really high win rates during 2014 (before the jungle change) but had really low pick rates and were considered lackluster junglers. But against an AD team, Rammus will win almost every game. Warwick is one of my favorite picks against teams whose mid is a crazy assassin (ie fizz, kat, akali, etc). Ult them and the game is won because you lock them down. On the other hand, champs who are considered OP or strong, such as Lee Sin or Thresh see staggering pick rates, but have poor win rates. But that's because more people play them, aren't as good with them as someone with over 1000 games on a niche champion, and since they are picked more, they are in more games to lose. Win rates mean nothing, but pick rates really show most champions power potential IMO. There are some cases for such champs as janna, but 90% of the time you don't look at champs in the bottom 10 of pick rates and go "there's definitely a diamond there that no one knows about or uses"
We're not talking about anything that's remotely going to be affected by small numbers. If you say, "Give me the win rate of Support Brand in 2300+ Elo over the last week" we're going to have issues. But the numbers I'm talking about are in the 10s or 100s of thousands of games, Rammus and Warwick included. People "consider" all sorts of funny things, regardless of the actual impact games have. What I will say is that subjective feedback matters. LeBlanc certainly **FEELS** overpowered because she has almost no counterplay. Landing her E doesn't typically matter once she's ahead. Whether she wins half her games or not, she feels really bad to play against, so people ban her. Back in the height of Zed in 2013 when everyone banned him, I'm not doubting his power in the hands of a professional LoL player. But he literally lost more games than he won on the live servers. If you wanted to win a game of League of Legends, you hoped your opponent picked Zed. Hundreds of thousands of games said so. But again, I will reiterate that everyone's subjective feedback of, "Lee Sin feels overpowered. Thresh feels overloarded" is valuable information. It's not how the game actually plays out, but what actually matters is the perception of human beings. And of course that's worth considering. I just sort of stand in my corner and say, "Well actually, he's not as strong as you think." Might not be worth much, but that's a lot of what I'm doing.
Retillin (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Phreak,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aYUEYaY2,comment-id=00140000000100030000,timestamp=2015-01-07T22:32:02.875+0000) > > Well let's look at Kassadin as a core example. > > We don't want to just play whack-a-mole with champions. For example, we could say, "Okay, we're just going to nerf and buff every champion's base health until everyone has exactly the same pick/win rate." That wouldn't make a very good game, but it would produced a balanced one. Definitely not the goal. Certainly, that's an extreme example, but that's what you get when you don't make the right choices. If he is still top 3 in 95% of the LCS don't you think that speaks to his over all power level? > > So instead what the designers do is slate reworks, direction shifts, take time to try to make the right changes, etc. Right now Kassadin, I would argue, is in a really good spot as a result of this work. Picked situationally where the champion makes sense. Has strengths, weaknesses, feels uniquely like Kassadin and no one else. Great! > > I'd argue it's actually Number 4 - There's not enough time in the day. We don't want to just play whack-a-mole. We're very aware of overplayed as well overpowered champions. Well this is countered by the slight tweaks to Sona on the PBE but not Thresh or Lee Sin? They are both thought of (as proven by their competitive pick rate) as being top of the line champions. But why don't they get looked at? Is it really just being scared of the blow back, or do you HONESTLY think they are not the best all around at their role? > > The following is personal opinion, so feel free to disagree. Lee Sin isn't actually the best jungler, he's just the most fun (and the most played across the entire playerbase). Thresh isn't the most powerful support, he's just the most fun. Do you really think we should nerf champions because they're more fun than others? You can make your own reasoning and have your own opinions on champion power at the very top tier, but as far as our actual matchmaking gameplay, **objectively** Lee Sin and Thresh aren't anything close to the most powerful champions in their role. I'd never ban them myself unless I knew I was facing someone who was specifically a "main" of that champion, just as I'd ban Urgot from an Urgot main. Okay I'm going to call BS on this. Are you really trying to tell me that Meteos picks Lee Sin because he's more "fun" than Skarner? Or Xpecial plays Thresh because he's more "fun" than Janna? Froggen's Anivia, okay I'll agree on that. But come on. Is there some data you can share that backs this up? If Lee Sin and Thresh are the among the top 3 picked in their role in competitive from day one they are allowed in pro games... are you telling me that it's just because they are fun and not the best? That pros who are doing every little thing to win (playing bullshit champs as you said) would rather play a weaker champ than the best all around at their position? This just doesn't make any sense. If "fun" is the way to label champs and that is what the pro's only play, does this mean your champion creation/rework/balance team has failed in all bout a small hand full of cases?
For part of it, I'm talking about matchmaking play vs. competitive play. For matchmaking, as reflected by the patch notes, Janna and Sona are just **actually** the best supports in the game. They just outright win games 20% more often than they lose games. Lee Sin and Thresh, they're 50/50. The data is that we know the win rates and picks rates of every champion in the game. We literally know how often each champion wins a game of League of Legends. We also know the pick rates of every champion in the game. The bar graph over "Jungler" is hilarious when you see the gigantic spike for Lee Sin. We know that Pick Rate is actually not very heavily influenced by champion power. Fiora had one of the 10 highest win rates in the game for I think over a year and remained unpopoular. I can tell you pretty much unequivocally that the general League of Legends player picks what's fun over what's powerful. We are all playing a game, after all. The point I'm the least strong on is competitive pick rates. I admitted as such. I said you guys can all have your own opinions and that I was merely stating mine. But I can pull out a mountain of facts that back up what I'm saying. How long between the last Kayle change before she was #1 Pick and Ban? How long did it take for Kassadin to go from unplayed to #1 in I believe the beginning of 2014 (when his Q became a magic damage shield). For how long did everyone ignore Janna until NJWS GorillA was like "Guys, Janna's OP" and then everyone was like, "Oh shit you're right!" Go watch the VoD of the Analyst Desk in the Group Stage at Worlds. I literally said just that on air and MonteCristo and Krepo directly laughed at me or straight disagreed. What did we see at the end of worlds? Janna became the #1 or #2 contested support pick despite being COMPLETELY UNPLAYED for the year leading up to it. What I know is that pros have some very weird decision making around what they pick. They all have their reasons, but from where I sit it looks arbitrary. I know they copy the Koreans. I know they copy Solo Queue when they face a champion without counterplay. Otherwise, I know they just play what they enjoy playing. Why do you think 90% of all Support players' Most Played champion in Solo Queue is Thresh? Why do you think every Jungler's Most Played is Lee Sin? Again, I'm talking about specifically Matchmaking games. Games where Rammus is **provably** stronger than Lee Sin. Where Fiddlesticks is **provably** the best jungler in the game. They're clearly not picking just to win Solo Queue, otherwise they'd pick based on win rate. They're picking to play things they enjoy playing. And that's where the rest of the picks come from. That's what I see.
Retillin (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Phreak,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=aYUEYaY2,comment-id=001400000001,timestamp=2015-01-07T02:47:41.430+0000) > > They played mid Janna because she was bullshit. They played mid Soraka because she was bullshit. Pros really like to pick champions that are un-counterable. Their opponents are, just like them, extremely skilled League of Legends players. If you can find a champion that **CANNOT** be outplayed, that's a **really** strong champion to play in top tier play. But this is the problem.... I don't know how much longer I can go without feeling like I'm taking crazy pills. I have yet to see Riot acknowledge this. The pro pick bullshit champs because they give them the best chance to win. This is 100% correct. So the best move would be to maybe nerf the champs that are ALWAYS at the top? Last season Jax was a monster top lane for 5 weeks in the EU & NA LCS. Then you guys nerfed him. And a few buffs, Gragas and Mao became the kings of top lane. Kassadin was in the top 3 picks for mid lane in 20 out 22 weeks over the same period. (Not counter playoffs and Worlds) Are you **really** going to say that Riot doesn't know why he was picked so often? And why did it take SOOOO long to address it? I can go on and on. Lucian was top 3 in 20/22. Elise 22/22. Thresh 22/22. I can go on and on. It's not the random Hec in mid lane. It's being bored of Elise vs Lee Sin. Thresh vs Leaon/Morgana. If the game has gone stale, and we have this much domination from so few champions, we can only come to one of three conclusions. Number 1~ Riot doesn't know they have a problem. Number 2~ Riot doesn't know how to balance over loaded kits. Number 3~ Riot doesn't care. They WANT Lee Sin. Kassadin. Thresh. Please tell me how I am wrong here. I want to love the game. But I watched every NA LCS game last year, and most of EU. And I'm just tired of it.
Well let's look at Kassadin as a core example. We don't want to just play whack-a-mole with champions. For example, we could say, "Okay, we're just going to nerf and buff every champion's base health until everyone has exactly the same pick/win rate." That wouldn't make a very good game, but it would produced a balanced one. Definitely not the goal. Certainly, that's an extreme example, but that's what you get when you don't make the right choices. So instead what the designers do is slate reworks, direction shifts, take time to try to make the right changes, etc. Right now Kassadin, I would argue, is in a really good spot as a result of this work. Picked situationally where the champion makes sense. Has strengths, weaknesses, feels uniquely like Kassadin and no one else. Great! I'd argue it's actually Number 4 - There's not enough time in the day. We don't want to just play whack-a-mole. We're very aware of overplayed as well overpowered champions. The following is personal opinion, so feel free to disagree. Lee Sin isn't actually the best jungler, he's just the most fun (and the most played across the entire playerbase). Thresh isn't the most powerful support, he's just the most fun. Do you really think we should nerf champions because they're more fun than others? You can make your own reasoning and have your own opinions on champion power at the very top tier, but as far as our actual matchmaking gameplay, **objectively** Lee Sin and Thresh aren't anything close to the most powerful champions in their role. I'd never ban them myself unless I knew I was facing someone who was specifically a "main" of that champion, just as I'd ban Urgot from an Urgot main.
Gorzke (EUW)
: I know this doesn't belong here, but the "Same champion making different roles" has been against every balance change you have ever made in the game (Except a MF AP buff). If you are taking care of them now, you should start to think about the balance changes too.
That's not quite correct, though I understand where you're coming from. We are not, as a game, against a champion being viable in multiple roles. We're fine with Lulu working in 4 roles right now. We're fine with Karma working in the same ones. We're fine with Hecarim as a jungler as well as a Mid Laner (and I'm sure he's fine Top also). The changes to champions when they worked in certain lanes came from the **gameplay impact** of that lane. When Janna walked into lane, Pressed Q in the vague direction of the minions, and then immediately last hit the entire wave, that was an issue. When Lulu clicked "E" and then pressed "Q" twice, causing you to lose 50% of your health without it honestly being a real skill shot, that was the issue. When Annie's low level base damages and stun were so obnoxiously high you immediately lost any possible 2v2 fight bottom lane, that was the issue. Notice how literally nothing changed about Karma after we saw Bjergsen get a pentakill on her in the LCS playoffs, despite being played as a support the week before. Lulu hasn't been changed in about 4 months (E duration on enemies being the big change) after her mid lane pattern became significantly less toxic. The awkward thing about all of this is that it's not that pro teams were looking for support mids to play. They didn't immediately replace Janna with Morgana, or Karma, or Lulu, or Soraka. They played mid Janna because she was bullshit. They played mid Soraka because she was bullshit. Pros really like to pick champions that are un-counterable. Their opponents are, just like them, extremely skilled League of Legends players. If you can find a champion that **CANNOT** be outplayed, that's a **really** strong champion to play in top tier play. So while a lot of people see, "Oh, Janna got played outside of her recommended lane, so Riot nerfed her," what's actually happening is, "Janna mid has no counterplay, let's add some." And then to pros go, "Oh, this champion has counterplay? Time to find something else to abuse."
: Some of what you are saying is true, but there's a lot more to it than that. For instance, right now the deciding factor much of the time in terms of whether the pros play a champion or not is whether or not that champ is mobile. Immobile champs don't see nearly as much play in LCS, and as far as I can tell you guys don't have any interest in changing that. The reason I say that is because you a) rarely ever buff immobile champs that don't see competitive play and b) continue to release champs that can do everything immobile champs can do while also bouncing around like rabits. So basically you guys have made a decision to cut the champion pool in LCS in half simply by doing nothing to counter the extreme dominance of mobility in the game.
I absolutely disagree. Ryze, Warwick (except ultimate), Orianna, Jinx, Morgana... The list goes on pretty much the entire way. Very few champions have *no* mobility abilities, so it's easy to say, "Well, mobility wins." Except that Looper showed us both Singed and Kayle as completely dominant champions. Talon can only jump to enemies, and crushed people. Jayce likewise, same impact. So, I have to reiterate, that saying things like "Cut in half" is very odd when there is I think literally one melee champion without some way of moving faster in Mordekaiser, and then some other fraction only has movement speed buffs... Yet we saw Dr. Mundo played for most of the split. And again, as far as ranged champions go, I think literally every conventional Support doesn't contain tactical mobility skills. Twitch was arguably the defining ADC of the World Championship. Orianna hasn't gone anywhere in literally ever, and neither has Rumble. Now you can make the point that champions can be come non-viable, but mobility is an absolute red herring.
DeusVult (NA)
: Almost everyone wants to see champion diversity in LCS
It's definitely an odd space. On the one hand, you're right: The number of unique champions played in top tier competitive play is dwindling slowly over time. The real question is "Why?" You could certainly force a wider variety. You could say "Okay, you can only play each champion once per month / once per series / if your opponents haven't played it either." Enforcing a wider variety of champions can be interesting because you'll see more of them played. You could have 20 bans. You'll definitely see different stuff played if you do that. Another question can be if just "Champion named Ezreal was picked" counts as one unique pick. What about Mid Ezreal vs. ADC Ezreal? What about Support Nautilus vs. Jungle? Kayle Top/Mid/Support? How about different builds? AP Amumu vs. Tank Amumu? You can track the specifics of "Champion named X was picked." Does that tell the whole story? Do you care if they were built differently? AP Mid vs. AD Bot Kog'Maw? I'd argue this counts as a "different" pick, but it's of course not tracked as that. Certainly, an edge case, but it's food for thought. On that line of reasoning, I think 2014 was a year full of flex picks. We saw Karma, Lulu, and a whole host of other mages go in various lanes. Would a better line of reasoning be, "How many Supports did we see this year? How many Mid Laners did we see this year?" Double-counting Jayce doesn't make for a very interesting comparison, but Annie might count. I think we saw more flex picks in 2014 than any other year. There were probably at least two dozen champions that were played in more than one role this year in professional play. The game has also become more homogenized. Up until halfway through Season One, many teams weren't running ADC+Support bottom lanes. Now it's considered commonplace. Not everyone knew Kassadin was crazy strong throughout 2013, Cloud9 least of which, but he defined the first half of 2014's Ban phase. Nowadays everyone's watching the Koreans and saying, "Ah, LeBlanc and Corki are contested. We should all learn them." The fact that all the top-tier players have a standard to look to and compel themselves to emulate shrinks our champion pools significantly. I specifically asked Cloud9's Hai about this at the beginning of 2014. He said they sat down, had a meeting, and told me (paraphrased), "We chose to drop our old playstyle. We should play like SKT. They won the world championship. Let's be like them" Well, SKT couldn't even qualify for Worlds the next year. I'm not certain that emulating a specific team or style of play in a constantly-evolving game is the right way to thrive. Cloud9 had, consecutively, their worst splits ever after making the decision, "Let's copy SKT." Throughout 2013 they made their own rules. Meteos made his own jungle style. Sneaky and LemonNation pulled in their own champion pools and style (Hello, Ashe/Zyra). Certainly, other factors than just "not innovating" led to teams taking more games off C9 than before; I'm just bringing up trends I see. I think the trend actually feeds on itself. Because everyone's compelled to learn specific champions because "better teams" do so, everyone shares similar champion pools. And because you can easily predict your opponent's champions, and magically you ALSO play those champions, it means you have heavily contested picks. I know they want Corki. Well I know how to play Corki! Let's first pick Corki. This repeats for every role, 2-3 champions deep. Some players branch out and have their own fun touches (Xerath players, Rengar players, Rumble players, Vayne players, etc.) but anything that sees a lot of success falls back into the old pattern of, "Oh this champion's successful, let's all learn it." In my opinion, almost every single champion in League of Legends can be that champion. The next Rengar is out there. The next Support Annie or Support Morgana is out there. People just arbitrarily started playing them and everyone decided it was a good idea. But people seem to glom onto them really, really hard, so the pools decrease. What's the way to fix that? Is it OK to "force open" the champion pools? Should we just track "# of Supports played" across seasons and trend that? What should change?
: Does Aatrox suck now or am I doing it wrong?
Jungling got a lot harder in 2015 so now it's a tricky place to navigate early on. Things to keep in mind: Armor Seals always. Make sure you're running combat-relevant quints as well, not things like Move Speed. Start Q to make sure you start with a maxed Blood Well. Make sure to start Krugs or Gromp to get a combat-relevant buff for your first clear. I'm pretty sure every champion in the game can jungle up until their first jungle upgrade with no issues. Medium-mobility melee champions' biggest difficulty is gauging engagements. If you're not familiar with the types of fights you can take as Aatrox, you end up Q'ing in and then just dying. On top of that, junglers get a little bit less income than laners, so you'll be on average less farmed than your opponents. So I'm not surprised that's been your initial experience. The final thing to point out is item build. What I see being most successful is one core damage item, either just your jungle enchant, or in addition to the enchant, and then building tanky. This should keep you pretty relevant in terms of damage output, while also allowing you to sit on the front lines pretty well.
: Which mid laner should I buy?
Highly mobile midlaners, hmm... Ahri's pretty similar to what you're playing now. Azir and Lissandra are mobile but play quite differently from those three. Zed, Talon, and Yasuo as other players mentioned here are also similar in playstyle, just AD-focused, and similarly rather quick.
: Super Newb to Normals, Please Help! :3
The best thing you can do is just play. You just kinda have to get over the fear of it all. If don't end up being very good, your Matchmaking Rating will decrease and you'll play with weaker players. The inverse if true of course if you do super well. Eventually, you'll end up playing with players at your skill level. So don't worry about it! What you're seeing with your smurf is that playing with/against real people doesn't have to be scary. Just play! Enjoy it! :)
Show more

Phreak

Level 110 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion