: He's the new face of "off meta" (in quotes because we all fucking know the difference between off-meta and griefing while claiming it's off-meta...) As someone who frequently tries off-meta strategies, I fucking hate everything about that guy because of this. Like, I get it - he powerballed Irelia. But after getting her ahead, he shoulda went back bot, because it was obvious Sivir was struggling and his goal of getting Irelia ahead was already accomplished. I know plenty of ways that his "strat" would've worked if it was an actual strat instead of just griefing the mid and bot laners.
I mean, even “meta” strategies require you to help out and move to and between lanes. A rigid inflexible strategy is doomed to fail.
: Please read in depth before making thoughtless comments, or rather read the first paragraphs carefully. I´ll quote it here. >Playing off meta is not a sin and you wont get banned for it, otherwise AP Shyvana and tank assassins or mage botlaners would never have happened, ever. > >The problem is that Nubrac´s Teemo midlane support strategy breaks the mold of expected gameplay and greatly affects his teammates, if they arent prepared for it then it will have a massively negative impact on them, essentially griefing them. These here are the important parts, the ones you quoted was just explaining and trying to illustrate. > " So basically exactly what I said? If your off meta play so much as makes people feel slightly uncomfortable, don’t play it, and perhaps, don’t even play League if you want to play off meta?" If this little text of yours was correct then Ap shyv or tank assassins or mage botlaners would have gotten banned, all of them, but those never happened. AP shyv is even the main build for her now, it became the new meta. So again, you are free to pick and build whatever you like as long as you play seriously to accomplish the work of your role and dont cause any great for your team. ' 'Otherwise Swain support wouldnt a be thing his mains are entertaining themselves with right now in high diamond even. Losing and trying things out are fine by the rules, even if it ends up not working out that´s also fine. But doing something unusual that might work, perhaps even well, but has the base cost of causing at least one of your teammates to have a miserable experience? Maybe even several of your teammates? That is really not K.
And perhaps if you had read what I had said, you would have realized I referenced the original meta of 2 top, 1 mid, 2 bot that turned into 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, 1 jungler? I’ll tell you what, the experience for those toplaners would have been awful, having to lane 1v2. Nowadays we have to wait for the new metas to trickle down to NA from Korea because the Koreans don’t “bish” about or get banned for that kind of thing. My point is that *even* if you communicate it to everyone, and they accept it, and they cooperate, if enough people report you, you’re going to get banned. This would technically apply for any champion in any role in any playstyle. If enough people don’t like your playstyle enough to send a report, you’re going to get banned. This isn’t banning people, this is banning divergent and innovative playstyles. You have to remember in the case of your all important AP shyvana example that Riot Games themselves buffed her AP scalings with the express intent of making her be able to go AP as well.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2019-06-19T16:02:51.522+0000) > > So basically if people consistently don’t like you, the champion you play, or the way you play, you should be banned? The data shows he would do it in cases of playing with high profile streamer. Please answer me why he would do that. There was no communication with his team and his team actively asked him to stop. He did it for attention if he just did it all the time Willy nilly I would be on his side but when the data shows he would do it when matched with steamers shows it was a stunt not an actually actual strategy used to win games.
The point isn’t Nubrac, but what his ban entails. What of the common players? I don’t think his ban was necessarily undeserved, but at the same time I wonder what would happen to another random player who is playing a wonky strategy? Everyone will hate them for it and they will get banned.
: Sadly can't find the VOD of mine or his stream for that game oof. The only problem is that he doesn't tell anyone so his team is kinda forced to adapt to whatever he's doing. It worked out great for us and I love the strat though, just tell us wtf ur doing bro lol.
The issue, especially in high elo, with telling people what you’re going to do is *no one will cooperate.* 1) they will dodge 2) they will fight you to make you play something else, then dodge if that doesn’t work 3) they will recognize you or dislike what you’re doing and intentionally troll you. Communication doesn’t work. It’s just like those people who insist you play a certain champion then feed/int when you don’t. It’s a lot of work to explain a strategy every game for potentially hundreds of games— work that will not be reciprocated.
: >ruining gaming experiences for other players Right? Dismissing opening offer in 8 mins by tilted adc is sooooooooo ruining experience. Muting all after few sentences is soooooooo negative. "Afking" for 3 minutes in base when enemies are in your base and 2 of your teammates are afk is such a terrible crime against rules. Can we crucife him already? > I would rather have Nubrac Doubt
> [{quoted}](name=CrazyMonkeyCZ,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=IlRGvrEY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-06-21T20:46:29.945+0000) > > Right? Dismissing opening offer in 8 mins by tilted adc is sooooooooo ruining experience. Muting all after few sentences is soooooooo negative. "Afking" for 3 minutes in base when enemies are in your base and 2 of your teammates are afk is such a terrible crime against rules. > > Can we crucife him already? > > Doubt While Nubrac is unappealing, I feel like my odds of winning with Nubrac are significantly higher than with someone who rages and goes afk, not to mention my experience will be much less fun dealing with someone whining and “bish”ing the whole game.
Jamaree (NA)
: No one complained about old Akali because she didn't get played, and when she did, people realized how cancer a "have the stats to survive my level six or die" no counterplay champion she was.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XsM8jHxp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-21T07:58:08.969+0000) > > No one complained about old Akali because she didn't get played, and when she did, people realized how cancer a "have the stats to survive my level six or die" no counterplay champion she was. I don’t understand these stat check statements because as far as I see it, that’s pretty much how all of the champions in league work? Simply updating her, changing her Q to a skillshot and changing up her gameplay a little bit would have worked. Reverting the changes made by RicklessAbandon (who got fired and also had a lot of his changes reverted) as well as fixing her gameplay to be less point and click would have easily done the job. The new passive that ricklessabandon introduces was less “bonus stat,” but more gimmicky and made her toxic to play against and clunky to play against. The new rework just doubled down on everything people hated about Akali.
mack9112 (NA)
: He consistently ruined the game experience. That is a bannable offence
So basically if people consistently don’t like you, the champion you play, or the way you play, you should be banned?
: It is true that if you're deciding to go off-meta, you can still count your lucky stars that at least 50% of your team isn't going to be happy with you. Probably won't reduce the flaming and raging all that much. Communication with your allies is key because it at least gives them the opportunity to adjust their builds and picks so that they aren't screwed over by your strategy. Want to have the support lane w/ someone else? Bottom needs to rethink their build and pick. Solo laners may need to switch to a gold-reliant pick over a more common exp-reliant pick. Double jungle? Need laners who can get lane priority. Switching from one type of damage to another? etc...
Which might have been tolerable in and of itself, but Riot has shown that they’re willing to enforce the whims of meta slaves. Requiring your team to be content/willing for off meta gameplay is equivalent to passive aggressively forbidding off meta gameplay.
: Problem is, its an unwritten rule, this happened with smite singed support where riot did end up unbanning the singed player and letting him off with a warning, saying that he needs to "communicate with his team rather than **at** his team" The Teemo player didn't communicate at all but....where does it formally say you have to communicate what you are doing with your team....make it into a more formal rule please.. Ofc riot wont make it into a formal rule because its too vague and can cause a whole new problem, but they are still gonna use it as their trump card whenever someone tries something offmeta.
So why even play this game if it isn’t allowed to try new things or do risky game strategies? If you remove that flexibility, might as well play rock paper scissors; that would have a similar effect and result.
: What is off Meta and who picks what is and isnt off meta? I Play Reksai Mid and get (??? Reksai Mid ??? Is that a Thing?) in chat all the time. I then get first blood and end games with a good kda (not always a win tho but its Ranked so)
This is the issue. As long as people report you for playing it, you can get banned, whether you win or lose.
: Troll picking =/= off meta. Reasonably speaking, there are two ways of playing 'off meta': The first is positioning related. For example: Playing Garen as a jungler is off-meta. It's off meta because his jungle pick rate is non existent, he does not have any (commonly known) strengths for jungling, and he's not designed with jungling in mind / even as an aside. As such, picking Garen in the jungle role is strange, and out of meta. Other examples of this could be: Bard mid, Zed support. It is worth noting that 'off-meta' positioning picks generally do not fulfill all of the 'criteria' for a role (Garen jungle ganks would be pretty weak), but are often times passable / decent at another aspect (Garen jungle would have a decent clear speed and semi-decent jungle sustain). The second is build related: For example, full AP Shyvana is off-meta. It's off meta because Shyvana is demonstrably designed to be a tanky AD bruiser. This is something Riot has said. However she still has AP ratios, so she can benefit from AP items, and as such playing her as full AP is not 'useless', although it might be suboptimal. Other examples of this include bruiser / AD Akali, full AP Cho, bruiser Nid, and others. It is worth noting that sometimes 'off-meta' turns out to be insanely strong, in which case it actually becomes meta where as the 'norm' then becomes off meta. Good examples of this include Jungle Nidalee, AP Nidalee, bruiser Akali (pre and post rework), ADC Kennen, Full-AP-Mid Kog'maw, Full-AP-mid Janna, ect. It's also not uncommon for these builds to get absolutely dumpstered with nerfs. Now, let's talk about troll picks. Troll picks are basically the same two 'off meta' playstyles, but with malicious intent: Positioning related: Jungle Yuumi would be a troll pick. This is because a large portion of Yuumi's kit cannot be used in the jungle roll; not that it can't be used well / doesn't play into it, but it straight up cannot be used. Also, unlike other 'uncommon' jungler picks (Karthus, Garen, Renekton), she has absolutely no tools to give her a strong jungle clear. This flags her as a pick which is weak in every single area that she must fulfill for the desired role. Build related: Annie has the ability to auto attack from range (something not unique to her). Beyond that she has absolutely no synergy with AD or attack speed items; every single one of her scalings is AP, and she gains no reward (bonus AP damage, tagging targets with debuffs, 3-hit-procs, ect) from building such items. As such, building ADC Annie would be a troll pick. I do not mean that playing Annie as the 'ADC' role in botlane, and building AP would be a troll pick. That's off-meta. But building her as full AD & AS would be a troll pick, because she has absolutely no synergy with AD (Renekton has more synergy with AP than Annie does with AD). Beyond that, there are a few outliers. Something like a support-top at the cost of solo bot would depend on what's being played. A Leona 'supporting' a Darius, and playing as a regular support, is merely off-meta. A Zed 'supporting' that same Darius, & attempting to take every single CS out from under him, is troll picking.
Which is all bs because back in the day having a jungler was nonexistent, and would have been treated as your so called “troll pick.” Now, there are definitely legitimate troll picks. Picks that are just outright not useable or playable. However we’ve literally been sitting on an enforced meta for years. Anything that has posed a legitimate threat to the way this meta works has been gutted or rebalanced. I remember that proxy singed was considered troll back in the day, despite being a strong and legitimate tactic. At the end of the day, if you pick something that isn’t standard, and enough of your teammates dislike it often enough, you’re getting the ban hammer win or lose.
: Like holy moly OP how dense are you? Playing off meta is not a sin and you wont get banned for it, otherwise AP Shyvana and tank assassins or mage botlaners would never have happened, ever. The problem is that Nubrac´s Teemo midlane support strategy breaks the mold of expected gameplay and greatly affects his teammates, if they arent prepared for it then it will have a massively negative impact on them, essentially griefing them. Like the nightblue game where his botlane inhib tower was going down 11 minutes into the game because a single Sivir was defending with 40 CS vs a Sona+taric with 110 CS + a jungler, even the Irelia he "helped get fed" fell behind because she couldnt deal with the overfed enemy botlane. And that´s exactly the problem, he never told them about it so each of his botlaners had no choice but to sit there and die being unable to farm or really be useful while his midlaner was down on EXP and jungle unable to gank either lane, this griefing them as well. Even if they protested he´d ignore them. Those are why he got banned, it´s also why the Singed and Nunu supports got themselves banned for a few weeks. ---------- Now for a more general case, if you similarly want to play something that really breaks the "standard mold" and also affects how your teammates need to play then you have to tell them about it, and accept that maybe they wont like it so its better to not do it. Because its a teamgame, its not just you looking to have fun, its 4 other guys on your team as well and they might just want a normal game. Heck its fine if you try to play and lose on something unusual with say .......Swain support was a thing i heard about, as long as you are around your ADC and help them while providing wards for your team you have accomplished your role as a support and is free to be creative in the remaining space. It´s still something normal and your teammates wont have to adapt or really think about it much, you wont get banned for it, unlike if you forcefully push some strategy that greatly impacts your teammates against their will. ....So essentially you have a lot of freedom in picks and builds but you are expected to play according to your role.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2019-06-19T15:06:00.366+0000) > > > Now for a more general case, if you similarly want to play something that really breaks the "standard mold" and also affects how your teammates need to play then you have to tell them about it, and accept that maybe they wont like it so its better to not do it. > > Because its a teamgame, its not just you looking to have fun, its 4 other guys on your team as well and they might just want a normal game. > > Heck its fine if you try to play and lose on something unusual with say .......Swain support was a thing i heard about, as long as you are around your ADC and help them while providing wards for your team you have accomplished your role as a support and is free to be creative in the remaining space. > > It´s still something normal and your teammates wont have to adapt or really think about it much, you wont get banned for it, unlike if you forcefully push some strategy that greatly impacts your teammates against their will. > > ....So essentially you have a lot of freedom in picks and builds but you are expected to play according to your role. So basically exactly what I said? If your off meta play so much as makes people feel slightly uncomfortable, don’t play it, and perhaps, don’t even play League if you want to play off meta? What you’re saying is lining up 100% with what I posted. Every champion you pick, every play you make, and every item you buy greatly impacts your teammates and your game. So let me insert a TL;DR for you: “you’re free to play whatever you want as long as you play exactly what everyone else wants you to play.”
: I was actually his top laner one game about two days before his ban. I absolutely loved that game. He made life hell for the enemy top Vayne and it filled me with pure joy seeing a cancer top laner being out-cancered.
> [{quoted}](name=Z3Sleeper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2019-06-19T02:50:47.081+0000) > > I was actually his top laner one game a two days before his ban. I absolutely loved that game. He made life hell for the enemy top Vayne and it filled me with pure joy seeing a cancer top laner being out-cancered. Now that’s more like it! It’s great seeing risky something work out for the better.
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-18T09:59:40.819+0000) > > Yep. Classic ghostcrawler. Being melee has less skill expression and therefore melees should always be weaker than ranged champions amirite. actually i despise ranged champs with a passion, if i could i would set them all to 0 AD, i just feel hec is overtuned rn
I will agree he is strong, but his entire strength relies on a gimmick. His actualy kit isn’t broken or actually even strong, the issue is triforce predator + hecarim passive.
: HE IS NOT GOOD AT IT HE HAS 48% WINRATE. He his worse than a coinflip cuz he loses more games than he wins with his "incredible" strat. Can't even call it a strat. When the entire of high elo hates you because you troll every game MAYBE you are actually trolling and not off meta.
So you’re implying that someone with a negative winrate is able to stay in masters? The 48% winrate statistic is clearly some bs hashinshin pulled out of his ass once again. Nonetheless, it was a general statement that I made.
: Idk why you ppl are so stupid... Can't you see the difference between "normal" offmeta and his dumb strat? "Normal" offmeta gives majority of team standart laning phase, illusion of not being affected, which is basically 10 or more mins of not know that there is (R word) in my game, who thinks that XY with XY build in XY role is good, but whatever. His playstyle pushes it onto others, which without their consent is straight up griefing. That's difference. > All in all, we have a situation where there is less flexibility to play an off meta role than ever before. If you want to play something that isn’t the meta, you might as well just outright quit this game; that is my takeaway from the recent events as well as from past events. You’re going to get attacked by this wonderful community. Riot’s going to ban you. If you’re lucky you get unbanned, but you will nonetheless permanently be met with distaste and ire. Use your one braincell to go through internet, give me one exemple of some one who was banned for playing off meta things that wasn't shifting whole game around them? You can't, no one was punished for offmeta. That's the point. That's why he needs to communicate, he is shifting game too much around himself. **Play your offmeta thingy, but don't push me onto it.**
> [{quoted}](name=CrazyMonkeyCZ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-18T10:49:43.920+0000) > **Play your offmeta thingy, but don't push me onto it.** So how the hell are off meta players going to get to play if there’s at least one if not multiple of you ~~meta slaves~~ brilliant minds every game? If that’s what they are good at, and it helps you win, what’s the problem? The problem is this. It makes you feel _uncomfortable_. You’re so used to playing the same gameplay and game style every game for who knows how many hundreds of games that you’re unwilling to tolerate anything that even smells a little off. **How is anyone going to play offmeta if there are meta slaves like you in every game?**
: Jesus people are dumb. He was NOT playing OFFMETA. He was playing off role. He was the support yet he did no supporting. He legit just went mid and soaked xp forcing the mid laner to be behind and the bot laner to 1v2 and get zoned. That is not fun for either players. If I was in that game I would have afk'd as the adc.
As someone who was around since before the conceptions of the current roles, I don’t see why it’s so necessary to stick to the current preset roles. For the longest time the way to go was 2 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, and the only reason we found out having a jungler is better was because people tried it out. > [{quoted}](name=The23rdGamer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-06-18T14:58:39.555+0000) > > I've successfully pulled off his playstyle a couple times before with a willing team. The whole point is that you can't be reported for asking your team if they'd be willing to try something besides the standard positioning format that we've played with since the end of Season 1. If they agree to try it then there's nothing they can report you for (so long as it's clear that you are trying to win) and if they don't agree to try it then simply be safe and play your role more traditionally^ > > * ^You can play an uncommon champion in a position (Zyra Jungle, Master Yi Mid, Zac Support, Sona Top, etc.) even if your team decides that it doesn't want to try some nonstandard positioning ideas you bring up -- **it's significantly harder to be punished for playing the role you were assigned in a traditional manner, even if you're playing that role with a nontraditional champion for said role**. > > I've played this game for ages now and I do my fair share of weird picks (Sona Jungle, Katarina Jungle, Nocturne Mid, Aurelion Sol Top, Blitzcrank Top, Thresh ADC, Kindred Support, etc.) and I have never been punished for this since I follow the common courtesy I detailed above. I genuinely believe that others would not be punished as well if they did the same since it'd be clear they are respecting their teammates and are trying to win. Your behavior in chat can save you even if you happen to have a bad game afterward (it happens to everyone sometimes). Well, what happens when you go past a certain number of games with that playstyle, still racking up reports from players who were outwardly willing to play along? In a game where you need hundreds of games played to rank up, it’s crazy that you’d need to negotiate and beg every game just so you’re able to do what you’re good at. Not to mention this still likely backfiring if people still report you. The same issue is of course there with off meta picks, but it does seem that people have lightened up a little on that end. In theory it could also get you banned if people hated it enough, but people usually tunnel-vision long enough to not notice the mildly off meta picks you mentioned. It is, however, worth noting that quite a few of your picks have been played before, even in the pro scene, and are not *really* considered off meta.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9IzH65fI,comment-id=000200000001000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-11T16:06:46.364+0000) > > I find it funny how people over the years have made it seem like skillshots are actually *skilled shots.* Just because you’re not point and clicking someone down doesn’t make them necessarily balanced. You can’t just go around saying 3 hits and you die is balanced when said 3 hits are on a 1-2 second cooldown while slowing you if one lands on or near you. > > Ezreal instagibbing you with 2-3 Q’s +0-1 W’s from a mile away isn’t exactly balanced gameplay. Yes but here’s the thing. They are easily dodgeable. The animation for ezreal’s q isn’t that fast. And it’s even slower if he has to use his w first. It’s like a varus arrow. If at any point you get hit by that without being chain cced. It’s 130% your fault.
“Just dodge,” has been an invalid argument for years now. Use a different, less bs argument. Ezreal deleting you from over 1000 range away, while slowing you is not counterbalanced by his Q’s being “easily dodgeable.”
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T10:44:16.250+0000) > > Hard to take you seriously when you don’t even realize Tristana ult _is AOE_. > > “Active: Tristana fires a massive cannonball at the target enemy, dealing magic damage and knocking back the target and all enemies around them.” > > While knocking back 600/800/1000 units as opposed to hecarim’s 250-450. While Hecarim has a maximum 330 base damage (minimum 165) at max rank as opposed to Tristana’s 500. > > Hecarim runs predator and literally optimizes his itemization around his E. More often than not, until he gets to ridiculous movespeeds, the reason carries are getting instagibbed is because the carries were out of position or playing badly. > > If he’s building to one shot you, the unfortunate thing is he rapidly switches over to getting one shot by the sheer bs damage that carries get. But that’s ok. Because unavoidable right click damage/huge aoe spells that are practically unavoidable are ok from range, but if a melee does the same thing that’s terrible and needs nerfing. okay, well seems a little unbalanced turning tristanas ult into a basic ability on hecarim, i literally have never played trist, also he only needs 1 dmg item to one shot you....dunno what part of that you don't understand, he's flying into the middle of the team ,insta gibbing the carry simply because you cant CC him, he just runs Qss and boom, carry dead, hecarim is now tanking since he's built TANK with tri force
> [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-11T20:50:58.467+0000) > > okay, well seems a little unbalanced turning tristanas ult into a basic ability on hecarim, i literally have never played trist, also he only needs 1 dmg item to one shot you....dunno what part of that you don't understand, he's flying into the middle of the team ,insta gibbing the carry simply because you cant CC him, he just runs Qss and boom, carry dead, hecarim is now tanking since he's built TANK with tri force Hecarim doesn’t one shot with just a triforce lmfao. He would need a super early triforce+predator to “one shot” you with it. You’re asking for his E to be gutted, comparing it to Rammus’s Q which is far faster and aoe, but simultaneously comparing it to Tristana’s ult which is high damage, high range, aoe, and a much larger knockback. You can’t just ask to gut an ability just because you feel like it. It has its own niche. If you want to not get “one shot” by it, maybe just don’t overextend? Back off when the obvious as heck predator icon pops up?
: Considering the fact Irelia is also one of the most mobile champions in the game with numerous ways of resetting her mobility, why the fuck should she get the highest non-empowered melee auto attack range? Tell me something... what does Irelia really lack? She has burst damage, sustained damage, physical/magical/true damage, sustain on Q and conquerer when proc'ed, hard ranged CC that can stun multiple targets, a slow, hyper mobility, an uninterruptable 50% physical damage reduction channel, her passive is literally a fucking Wits End built in when fully stacked just without the healing aspect. She has a great early game, mid game, and late game. Snowballs extremely fucking hard. Can easily play from behind. All it takes is one teamfight where she hits resets and it's free. Her and Akali are two of the most digusting abominations to touch the Rift.
Why should any of the adcs get 550 range or even more? You’re legitimately implying that 200 range on her is dumber than the fact that multiple hyper scaling carries get above 650 range, many surpassing 700. Kai’sa’s dps, while being ranged, easily surpasses 3k at end game. Three THOUSAND damage per second. She has 550 range. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of Irelia, but her having 200 range is clearly not the issue with League of Legends. I would much rather face a champion who has to walk into my face to do anything rather than most ranged champions who instagib you from a mile away.
: Ghostcrawler worked on WoW. He thought the melee classes were all broken and overpowered for the game's pvp. He introduced kiting mechanics, and saw kiting as the most skilled thing a player can do. There's your dirt on Ghosty.
Yep. Classic ghostcrawler. Being melee has less skill expression and therefore melees should always be weaker than ranged champions amirite.
: I really like how melee champions all have 175 or less base range and noone has 200
I really like how an average 550 range with some offenders having 700+ is considered balanced, but goodness forbid a melee champion have beyond 125 or heck even 200. That level of ranged is too broken right {{champion:18}}{{champion:96}}{{champion:51}}{{champion:22}}? How dare a champion encroach on the innate right of the ADC to massively outrange and point+click for tons of damage?
: Manamune
A more important question isn’t why {{item:3042}} gets 85 AD, but rather why does {{champion:81}}’s Q have a 1.2 (last I checked) AD scaling?
: > [{quoted}](name=SuicidePlank,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9IzH65fI,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2019-06-11T15:06:16.705+0000) > > I ate W + Q, lol. > Plus it's hard to dodge when you stand on an area made of ice. Yes. You ate multiple skillshots (more than one) and his ibg doesn’t proc until the first q lands, which means you ate 3 skillshots. So again. Should you not be punished for being hit by multiple easy to dodge skillshots?
I find it funny how people over the years have made it seem like skillshots are actually *skilled shots.* Just because you’re not point and clicking someone down doesn’t make them necessarily balanced. You can’t just go around saying 3 hits and you die is balanced when said 3 hits are on a 1-2 second cooldown while slowing you if one lands on or near you. Ezreal instagibbing you with 2-3 Q’s +0-1 W’s from a mile away isn’t exactly balanced gameplay.
: >Because unavoidable right click damage/huge aoe spells that are practically unavoidable are ok from range, but if a melee does the same thing that’s terrible and needs nerfing. Thank CHRIST someone said it. God it's so unfair that I, a caitlyn, can't 1v1 a jax at melee range after i use my gapcloser aggressively and fail to kite him whilst he wails on me. I should be able to permanently kite him while he struggles to even be relevant even after tailoring his build to specifically take me down, because anything that interferes with ADC being an unkillable omnipotent role is absolutely broken and needs to be removed. It is ludicrusly unfair that I, a marksman, the most powerful and important class in the game, can actually lose in a 1v1 situation to a champion who is specifically tailoring their playstyle or champion selection to kill me /s
> [{quoted}](name=Spookerton,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T11:08:51.290+0000) > > Thank CHRIST someone said it. > > God it's so unfair that I, a caitlyn, can't 1v1 a jax at melee range after i use my gapcloser aggressively and fail to kite him whilst he wails on me. I should be able to permanently kite him while he struggles to even be relevant even after tailoring his build to specifically take me down, because anything that interferes with ADC being an unkillable omnipotent role is absolutely broken and needs to be removed. It is ludicrusly unfair that I, a marksman, the most powerful and important class in the game, can actually lose in a 1v1 situation to a champion who is specifically tailoring their playstyle or champion selection to kill me /s The double standard has driven me crazy for years. It does feel as well that after ghostcrawler joined the balance team that ranged champions have been treated and balanced as higher skill champions (in fact I remember him saying something to this effect), when the reality is having extra range is just outright more power/more damage. Melees have to have the most ridiculous features for them to even come close to as powerful, see pre-nerf irelia, jax, pre-nerf fiora, yasuo. They literally decided for the assassin rework that assassins dealt too much damage (all of them aside for leblanc were conveniently melee, and didn’t do nearly as ridiculous damage as one infinity edge crit at the time) so they crippled the class that dared counter carries and then rebalanced them around using gimmicks, which is how assassins are played to this day. It’s stat checking if a melee mashes buttons in a specific timed order and wins (see old akali), but kai’sa/any other ranged carry right clicking you down is skilled gameplay. I’m saying this as someone who actually plays both ranged and melee champions; the bias is awful.
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T09:37:51.505+0000) > > No it doesn't, it is in fact slower then Rammus's > > Hecarim: Hecarim is temporarily Ghost ghosted and gains Movement speed icon bonus movement speed for 4 seconds, beginning at 25% and increasing to 75% over 3 seconds. > > Rammus: Rammus tucks into a ball and begins to roll, Channeling iconchanneling for up to 6 seconds, gaining 25% − 39.17% (based on level) Movement speed icon bonus movement speed per second over the duration, up to a maximum of 150% − 235% (based on level) Movement speed icon bonus movement speed. > > And Rammus's has AoE knockback. > > And all I'm asking for is for people to not be bias when comparing skills and conveniently not listing the upside one ability has over another. Okay, but having a AOE tristana ult on hecarim is not exactly what i would say is balanced, the AoE on rammus Q is so insignificant that you will RARELY hit more then 1 champ as they literally need to be on top of each other, if ones slightly behind the other, you don't hit them, and while i was wrong about the speed, clearly heca has lots of ways to gain speed since both ghost and predator are a thing, hecarim does universally well rn, so much so that he needs to be put in his place, I have yet to see him do badly due to his overwhelming presence of being a tank, brusier and assassin all at the same time, his E is the most problematic thing rn and has little to no counterplay outside of survive his burst or buy stopwatch, thats NOT healthy, having to spend 600 gold every time i got back just to buy a stopwatch is not okay, and let's not forget his displacement, being able to force a player out from under there tower with ease is already fairly toxic, the only upside to champs like lee though is they can only do it so often, but hecarim can do it every 15-20 seconds, i could have said just nerf tri force to a 3-5 second cd or remove the CDR buff on his Q but tbh, nerfing his consistent dmg won't solve the problem, giving more counterplay to his E however will, this is his main problem and why he does so well, carries can't respond to him diving simply because he does too well, even VI's diving isn't as impactful as his is and that's literally all she does...another option would be to turn his E into a mini kled ult instead but that would be a lot more of a nerf
Hard to take you seriously when you don’t even realize Tristana ult _is AOE_. “Active: Tristana fires a massive cannonball at the target enemy, dealing magic damage and knocking back the target and all enemies around them.” While knocking back 600/800/1000 units as opposed to hecarim’s 250-450. While Hecarim has a maximum 330 base damage (minimum 165) at max rank as opposed to Tristana’s 500. Hecarim runs predator and literally optimizes his itemization around his E. More often than not, until he gets to ridiculous movespeeds, the reason carries are getting instagibbed is because the carries were out of position or playing badly. If he’s building to one shot you, the unfortunate thing is he rapidly switches over to getting one shot by the sheer bs damage that carries get. But that’s ok. Because unavoidable right click damage/huge aoe spells that are practically unavoidable are ok from range, but if a melee does the same thing that’s terrible and needs nerfing.
: Let's all do a HOTNESS TIER LIST
No idea how to have image show properly https://imgur.com/a/rBmFAmS S is hottest to D is least hot. Qiyana, while crazy and annoying, would also go to S on my tier list.
Saianna (EUNE)
: I remember times when CDR was mostly mage (and tank) stat, similar like crit is for ADCs. Now you end up overflowing with CDR just on any champion
I remember that too. If you wanted CDR on actually any class (even mages) you would have to sacrifice some other stats.
: I miss moments of weakness in LoL
This post is too detailed for something out of an XJ9 clone. What a heretic.
: Boots that give range
It would be okay on melees and broken on ranged champions. And it would do nothing for skill expression at all. It would just make certain ranged champions way more overbearing. Before anybody rags on me for saying ranged champions would be stronger with this, this is simply a matter of increased returns on area when radius increases. A champion with 550 range has 950,332 square units where they can attack. If you increase that by 25 range, they now have 1,038,689 square units of range. Whereas in comparison, a melee with 125 range has 49,087 square units where they can attack, and increasing that to 150 gives them 70,686 square units of range. While speaking in terms of % increase in range the melee has far more, the standard ranged champion has an increase in range that is great than the melee champions *total* new range. Hence this is a terrible idea. I always thought rapidfire cannon was a bad idea as well, but it was okay because it was a one off shot. In this scenario a nonstop increase in range would just be outright broken. It would reduce intended weaknesses of champions like {{champion:133}} or {{champion:236}} and augment the terror of champions like {{champion:96}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:18}}
: Melee toplaners weigh in: Who's the most tilting ranged champion to face top?
{{champion:133}} and {{champion:17}} are unholy annoying {{champion:126}} if played well and {{champion:13}} back when he was good was the WORST But god forbid you face a {{champion:67}} that plays aggressively. You’re going to hate your life if you face a vayne as almost any melee champion. Let me just say that as a sort of ranged champion, there’s a special place in hell for {{champion:41}} mains. By far out of all of these I hated ryze the most when he was strong. He would do a ton of damage, be tanky and fast as heck, and also scale into lategame while denying you early game with a single well timed point and click.
: I mean, that's partially true. But by the same note, just because one champion/set of champions works best with rune path X and item path Y, doesn't mean that I can't take that same rune path and item path on a champion I'm more familiar with and still cuck the exact same audience in the exact same way as those that do it best. For example - one of the recent boards posts was talking about Jinx being busted cause she can build IE, PD, and GA and be extremely hard to reach or kill. That's *almost* the exact same thing I do when I play Caitlyn (swapping GA for Edge of Night for the lethality since I have stupid range and E and can therefore abuse it better) and it screws people in pretty much the exact same way. Jinx is a hypercarry, and Cait falls off a bit by late game...but as far as early and mid game (the only two parts of the game you ever see at this point) are concerned, I can pretty much keep up with the damage output of Jinx just by doing Caitlyn things with pretty much the exact game build well past the 25 minute mark. These kinds of situations come from the rune paths being super stale - most adcs run a pretty similar setup (you're either tempo or PTA, with Alacrity, Triumph and either CDG or Cut Down, and usually biscuits and footwear for your early game sustain or scorch and gathering storm for more scaling damage output) and a lot of them run similar build paths (either crit based or AS/onhit based seem to be the two main ones). It's stale - in those cases, it's a case of "I'm adc, this is what I need" and not "I'm [insert champ here] and I'm up against [insert enemy lane/teamcomp here] so I should build around that." Another was talking about a Yasuo who - without lifesteal items - easily outhealed grievous wounds in a 1v3. That's the 26% lifesteal + triumph combo at work...and we all know Yasuo doesn't really need that and it probably isn't best for him, but that doesn't make it any less cancerous. It'd be asinine to have been part of the trio that got dumpstered by a Lifestealing Yasuo without itemized Lifesteal. This is the same concept as what's killed off assassins for you - how are you going to balance Yasuo even *item wise* if his *runes* are doing THAT? Let alone his PD, Shiv and IE combo. Literally the only 3 items he needs, and of course he dumps the rest into lethality/armor pen to make sure not even a tank can live for more than 3s. Don't get me wrong, I despise Yasuo...but I still don't think it's his actual kit that's OP (other than wind wall's animation time...but that's not his damage output) more than it is his access to a fuckload of free stats and damage that *shouldn't really exist*.
Yeah. When it is the ability to abuse runes and items the best that break champions and not the actual champion itself you know that the game has become too focused on items. Be it on hits, free utility, free damage passives, free healing, etc.. And that’s the whole problem, the one who abuses that *the best* becomes broken while everyone else is meh. For example zed’s entire role midlane has become proc electrocute every 25 or so seconds until you can go in and pop them with a duskblade proc. His kit isn’t actually doing a lot of the work, he’s just good at abusing items and so you’re not actually playing Zed, you’re playing an incarnation of Duskblade, Electrocute, ignite
: My concern is the new Morde counters at least 5 classes of champions entirely: Pet masters Area control champs. Reset champs. Dashing champs. Enchanters. _**Junglers (Can literally force a jungler to miss EVERY SINGLE DRAKE/BARON)**_ Having a champion counter one class of champions entirely is nothing new. Having one champ counter this many...... IS.
The jungler part will probably be the only serious issue. The rest of them are clearly intended.
: Smash Brothers - AP Alistar and AP Galio Bot! You should try it! Absolutely stupidly hilarious!
: Everyone seems to forget old akali was a stat check post 6 stomp
Everyone who mentions this also seems to forget that until the ricklessabandon mini rework she was utter garbage in lane and only became decent at level 6. The ricklessabandon mini rework in turn made her gimmicky-good in lane but then made her garbage after midgame, which then prompted an Akali rework which doubled down on the odd direction ricklessabandon took. Honestly everyone just spits that term out their ass like it actually means something. “Stat check” here “stat check” there. What *isn’t* a stat check? She had the ability to outplay enemy champions with her shroud and by dashing between different enemies with her R. I really cannot see the stat check in her old kit. The issue with her was she was all point and click, which does *NOT* equal stat checking and could have been fixed without completely deleting Akali. All of the Akali players agreed that her identity was hypermobile high sustain mid-late game assassin. What we instead got is an assassin that is far less mobile, that had far less sustain (now has none), and that has no real damage and acts like a skirmisher at best. Oh wait, great, now we’ve got this fancy stealth thing, something that nobody even really thought was the defining thematic about Akali. Ranting aside, people only pull that term “stat check” when they don’t want to actually explore and explain what’s wrong with a champion. For all that matters, I think adc’s are the definition of stat check, but instead it’s champions like old Akali that are the most pointed at. But you’re right, the new akali isn’t stat check, because she’s garbage whether she has full build or not, whether she’s ahead or not.
: Yes, I do like playing against new Akali because it's fucking easy and fair. Do you think it's fair to play against a champion that has a no-CD dash from half a screen? A champion that you can burst yet they completely heal off one ability? What's great about new Akali is that there exists counter-play. Old Akali did not have any. She jumps on you then you die. People complain about new Akali because what? They can't target her for 5 or so seconds? And? Use AOEs, you scrubs.
The new Akali only has “counterplay” in that she is so undertuned that picking her is legitimately inting at this point, hence having counterplay. The champion is so bad that Akali counterplays herself just by being picked.
: Revert Akali
I would like to note that she should be reverted to the version before RicklessAbandon’s mini rework, which is what caused a lot of problems in her kit in the first place.
: I found out how to deal with Zed
A lot of the replies to this pretty much read: “Oh no! We would have to actually change how we play the game! In a way that would outright turn a even/losing matchup into a winning matchup! That’s horrible! Actually building a semblance of defense against an assassin will completely cripple me!” Though the 3 doran’s rings isn’t a great idea, the rest of the post is fair. And double doran’s rings is/was fairly standard on some champions. Corrupting pot plus a couple dark seals is also a valid build, though with less health and more sustain. The real good suggestion here is the boneplating. That legitimately cripples zed’s damage. It’s the part of the reason why aftershock lissandra was so good. The aftershock+boneplating made her outright unkillable by most midlaners.
: And I agree completely on the free stats: free 10%CDR + convert excess CDR to adaptive force, free lethality/Mpen on dash/blink, a total of 26% lifesteal between [Legend: Bloodline] and [Ravenous Hunter]...and plenty of ways to deal stupid amounts of adaptive damage anyway. That's not even including Conqueror, since assassins don't use it, but the ability to turn literally anyone into a tank slayer is both busted and design crippling. Runes Reforged needs a hard second look. I'm not going to say it's all bad...but it needs to be a lot more balanced if it's going to take over for runes/masteries properly, and I've been saying that since their tag-in. Sure, I couldn't make my rune page in champ select...but it was a more customizable and more balanced player lever system than the RR system.
It’s just so busted nowadays. We find that it’s moreso a champion that’s best for an item or a rune rather than an item/rune that suits a champion. It’s all about champions augmenting items and not the other way around. In the past the “stat sticks” of old would have champions building items that did nothing but make the champion just better at what they did. That simplicity was *good.* Not everything needs to add magical power that comes out of nowhere. Stuff like statikk shiv, duskblade of draktharr, and other similar items that add free damage or free utility passives instead of the stat stick builds of old have lead to gimmicky damage skyrocketing. It drives me crazy and it’s entirely killed off the assassin class for me (because they are entirely balanced around those items and not their own kits now). It doesn’t feel fun to play an item and not a champion.
: I have NEVER lost to Morde with Zyra. EVER.
Maybe that was a problem with the old morde being completely negated by ranged cc and not actually how it should have worked out?
: The problem I see is this: Most champions who stymie one category or another don't generally delete them ENTIRELY. Even if a champ counters minions, they minion champ can still outplay them. This one can't be outplayed. Then there's the fact the ult/kit also counters about 3 other categories of champs. Most minion counters do NOT.
I mean, Yasuo entirely counters champions like Ezreal. Malzahar entirely counters divers. Janna and Lulu completely ruins an assassin/diver’s day. Some, to the extent that they completely cannot do anything against them. Teemo and autoattackers. Lots of pure autoattackers can do absolutely nothing vs teemo. Same goes for Jax during his E. Master Yi completely messes with soft cc reliant champions. This perfect counter isn’t a brand new concept.
: yep, that's what we need entire teams with nothing banshees and GAs such a fun game that would be
Implying that GA wasn’t build on every AD champion when possible? Just because banshee’s and GA were overtuned then doesn’t mean they have to be overtuned now.
: >Why are they good design on carries and why is a spell shield a good design on mages? Banshee's can negate engage. The use case is pretty clear. If you can negate *one* malph ult, or *one* bandage toss from Amumu, that can save your life. The counterplay is to pop it before you engage. Pretty simple. Tanks, meanwhile, don't have a strong need to negate engage. It's not clear to me why you would even *want* a spellshield over an adaptive helm or a spirit visage. And if you had banshee's on a true AD juggernaut, it negates a huge part of their counterplay; now you can't cc them as easily and prevent them from getting to your backline. That's a design issue. For GA, I would have agreed with you in times past; what changed is flat pen. Assassins now have access to lethality, and that *does* change how marksmen need to build. They need a small amount of armor on an item that still has something offensive they want for them to fulfill their role. It still costs them damage. It costs them either crit or lifesteal or % pen; marksmen builds are capped simple by the number of items now. And likewise, the counterplay is simple. GA protects them from one assassination, but it doesn't protect them against a lost teamfight. Anyone can tell you that having GA is only helpful if your team can survive without you for a few seconds. Otherwise, you just die again when you revive. And again, this design strikes me as problematic on tanks, in particular. They are already incredibly hard to take down; if you've got the damage to do it, it should stick. There are already tank items that are supposed to be good at reducing damage from AD; frozen heart, thornmail, and Randuin's are all good choices, especially against marksmen. Deadman's plate is excellent for Juggernauts, and Sunfire cape is good for a little oomph in your damage. GA doesn't really fit in. Back when GA was usable by everyone, tanks abused it. It was often a last item they would get *after* they were already tanky to have a disproportionate amount of threat on the backline. Two healthbars just isn't right for a tank. The one they already have is big enough. That's why it got removed. I'm not seeing a good argument to bring that back. It was game warping.
Funny you use amumu and malphite as examples, because they’re two of the few champions that don’t get fully negated by banshee’s. They’re right there on top of you after their engage. Banshee’s is better for stopping one off long ranged cc/de-incentivizing a burst combo on your champion. It’ll make a leblanc think twice. It’s not going to stop a tank or a diver from coming onto you. And while I agree that tanks don’t have a need to stop engage as badly, they didn’t dislike banshee’s when it was a full tank item. Tanks too can be engaged upon and killed quickly in many situations. Not getting hit by an ashe arrow, or intentionally blocking an ashe arrow with a banshee’s, is a great example. Plus, there’s no reason why there shouldn’t be full tank items that are intended as a one off defensive item for other classes. Just like triforce is a one off offensive item for bruisers, the same can and should be true for some tank items, *significantly* limiting a carry or a bruiser’s damage if they decide to opt in for some of the best defensive passives in the game. And while you bring up lethality, it’s worth noting that assassins of old had 100+ AD items that they could stack. The story didn’t magically change just because we swapped those with ~50 AD lethality items. Nowadays everyone, assassins included, is running GA if they can make use of the ad. Juggernauts, divers, ADCs, assassins. There is not veritable sacrifice because the GA passive, while limited in ways you mentioned, is good against *all* damage sources. In a time when scalings are higher than ever, the ad on GA is universally applicable to AD champions, and doesn’t limit their damage enough. Surviving longer is more damage, so the tradeoff for not getting another offensive item is minimal. The loss of risk and the suddenly increased difficulty of killing a GA champion makes it so that the GA user dies much less simply because of the lack of incentive to dive a champion that’s going to revive, let alone when they actually revive. A damage champion should *have to* trade off significant damage to procure that power. I fail to see how GA doesn’t fit the tank thematic perfectly. It allows them to maximize their survival time and is a strategic item that can allow them to, in certain scenarios when it is off cooldown, fight a lot longer. I question whether tanks should be going after items that let them do more damage as opposed to items that allow them to *live much longer* to then do that damage. I understand that it was game warping, but are you implying second and third item GAs on carries aren’t game warping? That every ad champion having a stop watch isn’t game warping? *Please.* When it was cheaper you’d see GA on EVERY AD champion that could get it. It’s the core of most bruisers alongside sterak’s, it makes yasuo, jax, camille, master yi, riven, and others bullshit to deal with. Sure, Jhin isn’t the one broken with it. Having to deal with a Vayne, Kai’sa, xayah, lucian, or ezreal that just come back after you have to get through their whole to kill them is just utter nonsense. Not the mention what broke tanks was that it revived them with 30% hp that was then augmented by spirit visage and healing increase runes. Nowadays it heal by a flat amount which is by far more ridiculous on low health damage dealers. It’s fine to keep that flat number, but make it not have AD so that damage dealers *really* have to sacrifice damage to get it. Heck, make it augment damage after you revive for a short time, but *only* after you revive. Boom. You have an item made for damage dealers that is simultaneously not making them stronger at every moment of the game. TL;DR: as it stands, GA makes every AD assassin much tankier and leads to a tanky damage dealer meta, making pure tanks and damage dealers that can’t make use of GA and similar tanky offensive items less worthwhile.
Limrick (NA)
: Overall maybe, but playing against them as a mage is miserable
I’ve found it miserable to play as and against them. As someone who originally played AD assassins back in season 2 and 3, before they were ever considered good, I miss playing around my super risky kit instead of wonky minigames and item+rune abuse. It feels like the assassins of today are entirely built around cheese as opposed to the assassins of old which were all about maximizing risk vs reward. It’s just not exhilarating to play assassins anymore because I’m not really playing *risky*, I’m playing an optimized cheese tactic that we call a champion.
: People prefer playing them in bot instead of mid because of {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{item:3155}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3814}}
As someone who used to main AD assassins in season 2-4, I sort of agree. While AD assassins haven’t outright ruined the game for mages, I didn’t like how they were changed from massive amounts of AD stacking champions to lethality+item abusers. They went from having to get as much ad as possible to abusing free damage sources as effectively as possible champions and that frustrates me to no end. I want to play the old balls to the wall assassins that had to use their kits as well as they could instead of duskblade proccing easy to escape assassins. For me, an assassin is a champion who tries to take out a carry or two in exchange for their life, not a champion who is supposed to be amazing at getting away and tries to cheese the adc/mage with their lethality duskblade electrocute ignite combo. It feels like the assassins oneshotting more easily in exchange for dying easily was a much more healthy gameplay rather than this situation where they don’t kill as easily but have a billion ways to get out of a tough situation, while simultaneously killing really easily if they abuse items and runes instead of their innate damage; seriously, look at their innate damage, it’s not that high (except rengar and perhaps kha’zix)! Riot has just made it so that they have items and runes that they are very good at abusing that makes them so bullshit to play against. I want back the 100+ AD items and I want gone this bizarre resistance+ad+ other stats super optimal items. It was a lot more fun and a lot easier to counterplay a bloodthirster stacking talon rather than this bullshit.
: As a sexist gamer, I'm offended
I don’t really care I just want more monsters. To hell with humanoid champions.
CLG ear (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=01EeGpK1,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T16:34:57.980+0000) > > I tried watching Kill La Kill but couldn't get into it personally. Something about the art style just doesn't click with me it is one of the best anime of all time
> [{quoted}](name=CLG ear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=01EeGpK1,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T16:39:25.767+0000) > > it is one of the best anime of all time Nah I agree with the fish man, it’s an awful anime. And I somewhat agree on best anime as well. > [{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=01EeGpK1,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000e,timestamp=2019-05-27T22:32:46.448+0000) > > Well technically I just said these were my *favorite* anime. I am under no illusion that Fairy Tail is the best made anime out there. Not by a long shot. But it was the one that goes me into anime in the first place, has create characters, and over the course of hundreds of episodes I've come to love these characters. The *best* anime is imo Stein's Gate, as it was just a masterpiece. Stein’s Gate is probably indeed the best anime. There are some older ones and a handful of newer ones that might contend, but Stein’s Gate is really damn good. Otherwise, I’m a big fan of Castlevania, Devilman Crybaby, the original season of One Punch Man, Spice and Wolf, and a hand full of others. I don’t like Fairy tail much, on the other hand. I, myself, got into anime via Ranma 1/2, quite the old anime. I subsequently watched Inuyasha, which was decent but not as good.
: So when are tanks that can't 1 shot people going to be relevant again?
It won’t happen when hybrid offensive+defensive items continue to exist and dominate. Being able to buy a several items {{item:3157}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3139}} that have the most powerful defensive passives/actives on them while also being offensive items makes it so that the game entirely rotates around abusers of these items.
: Your post doesn't address a key question here: why is a revive item good design for tanks? And why is a spell shield good design for tanks? What need is the current defensive itemization for tanks not meeting? This items were *specifically* reworked so that squishy champions had healthy, viable defensive options. It wasn't an accident. If GA doesn't have AD, there is no armor item that feels good on marksmen. The same is true for Banshee's and mages. Meanwhile, tanks have tons of good defensive items already.
> [{quoted}](name=KnightsKemplar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bqxQWmjU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-22T21:54:01.485+0000) > > Your post doesn't address a key question here: why is a revive item good design for tanks? And why is a spell shield good design for tanks? What need is the current defensive itemization for tanks not meeting? > > This items were *specifically* reworked so that squishy champions had healthy, viable defensive options. It wasn't an accident. If GA doesn't have AD, there is no armor item that feels good on marksmen. The same is true for Banshee's and mages. Meanwhile, tanks have tons of good defensive items already. Why are they good design on carries and why is a spell shield a good design on mages? Why do hybrid offensive defensive items make up the *best* defensive items in the game? For the longest time Riot refused to release an AD armor item because a dps class having something that makes it last longer vs other dps classes was comsidered *bad design.* A spell shield on the other hand should be very clear. There’s no reason mages need to avoid *one* spell. If they are in range for one spell they in range for everything else that will kill them. Hence why you don’t really see mages building this item, despite it having AP. Champions should be *forced* to give up offensive power to get defensive power. The entire game was balanced around this historically, and as it is now champions that can abuse hybrid defensive offensive items while getting a select couple other items are the ones breaking the game/being most op/overbearing.
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Pierce The Veal

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