: Fact and fiction: Mana changes
I would also say that against an opposing enemy mage, the net effect of a early game buff is nil.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: Well, it wasn't overly broken when it was her passive before the Mid Season Mage rework. It also makes getting those huge Sphere ults a whole lot harder. Syn is in a tough spot right now and I think this will actually help those who are good with her, while it should make those who suck with her still struggle. Her Q in team fights is pretty easy to hit but in 1 v 1 fights it's pretty easy to dodge. Personally as someone who has played a good amount of Syn in my career, I like this change, and it won't turn on until Lv9 when she can max out her Q.
Yeah, more damage is hard to complain about, unless they want to throw in some penetration.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: Its on pbe, theyre putting her old Q passive back instead of the new one.
15% seems like a lot. Do you think its an a good trade off for 2 sec less duration?
Krotux (NA)
: Leblanc Zero Counterplay
Don't get close. Remember that the new Repertoir-style counterplay involves sitting out of lane and getting your cs at 25-50% efficiency of the champs Riot favors.
SkyeMoon (NA)
: > I don't even understand the basis of this class-wide nerf... Riot: > We’ve seen mages solve a lot of their mana issues with a single component for quite a while, and we don’t think that’s good for the mages, or the game at large. > Mages should run out of mana if they’re casting constantly in long fights. Mages should pay clear costs when they use their spells to clear waves quickly and safely, especially if they’re not investing into items that specialize in mana. We want to increase conflict around map objectives that provide sustain (Blue Buff and Ocean Drake), where recently the cost for ceding those objectives to the enemy has been much lower. Riot doesn't want mages to mindlessly throw spells on CD without paying a cost, it defeats the purpose of having a mana/resource bar gating them; and I agree. Mages are already dominant because of their wave clear AND teamfight, now they will have to make a decision on how/when to use their mana.
What's the purpose of playing a champ gated behind mana availability, when you're playing against champs that don't? {{champion:238}} {{champion:157}}
Rioter Comments
AmazoX (EUW)
: Thing is, ADCS too powerful to the point they can 1v1 the characters made to destroy them, they hit their power spikes at 2, 2.5 items the hardest in the game. Mages on the other hand are the only ones left on the Mid lane capable of producing utility, zoning & wave clear for their team. The mages adjustments are part of the larger plan which is related to the ADCs taking an adjustment hit during Mid Season.
: Mages getting nerfed meanwhile all i play against mid is....
Team Repertoir, try asking yourselves today, "maybe I'm just wrong"?
: Why people quit LOL.
Firstly, you should disable crossteam chat. I've never activated it, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything I actually need. Second, don't flame people. Sure, I get mad, and sometimes say things I shouldn't, but, I've never directed it at someone, called them a derogatory name or berated them for making a mistake in a game. It's not hard, just play nice. I've been in some crap games like most players I would bet, just find a different way of venting.
Rioter Comments
Rainfall (EUNE)
: RIot Your Testing Team Is Clueless.....
Riot bases their balance decisions on far out statistical outliers. That's called quackery and bias in most fields. Its no wonder shit isn't working right. Yeah, I made a mistake and bought some riot points, not alot. Probably would have been more if playing this game wasn't such a piss take.
: > [{quoted}](name=Crispy0Snake,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J0jInUfW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-21T21:15:22.719+0000) > > If they want to nerf waveclear why not just cap certain abilities' damage to minions like they (essentially) do in jungle. These changes will just help mages that can waveclear in one or two abilities like Ekko or Taliyah but put other mages in the dumpster. > > Why are they nerfing waveclear so much though? Was it ever a big problem? They are nerfing infinite waveclear. There's so much mana being thrown around that mages with good, safe waveclear can effectively stall out games for free without having to ever back. Its the exact same problem we had back during the glory days of athene's grail.
How many right clicks are being thrown around?
: So because other people enjoy the champion enough to buy a mid-range price merchandise product. That somehow weighs out in your mind to complain about wave clear and "resource constraints"?... Why? If they started making sexy Syndra pinups with Kassadin fondling her balls should I complain about the 'ridiculously' long stuns from miles away I get hit with, and the harassment I get when a Kassadin roams lane? Come on now...
> mid-range price merchandise product It's a doll.
: Syndra's passive should be changed into a series of Quests
Syndra is already a resource constrained champ. How about applying this concept to windwall?
: let me guess, you lost to a yasuo minutes before posting this
I saw the doll for sale minutes before getting into a yas game.
: Doesn't seem like you hate him on your team. Rather seems like you just hate the fact you suck/cant play him, and you get easily pubstomped by him. Hating a champ won't help you beat them.
Thats just untrue. I've definitely made similar posts after having a yas on my own team.
: He's just salty because he got stomped by a Yasuo in his last game. Check the match history.
I've hated Yas's unbalanced kit for a while, win or lose. On team or opposed. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20
How do you plan on balancing {{champion:157}} in the new mageless meta? Are you adding a mana bar? Resource constraints? Nerfing the wave clear? When can we expect that rework that was talked about last summer? Nice doll by the way.
: No, he's right. Riot has many different teams for many different aspects of LoL. The balance team doesn't animate the videos, the support team doesn't create new champions, the lore team isn't the one in charge of the tournaments and so on... {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
YOu're incredibly naive.
: Don't think the people involved with physical merchandise have anything whatsoever to do with game balancing.
Yaeh I think you're wrong.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: We've been talking about Syndra this week. Nothing concrete enough to share yet. I'll get an update on our thoughts in a post next week, though might be 'here's what we're considering' not 'here's what we're planning to do'.
> 'here's what we're considering' not 'here's what we're planning to do'. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Eedat (NA)
: Its also half the length of the other lanes and filled to the brim with champs that use ranged waveclear. Have you ever jungled? Top is a long lane willed with melees which are a free kill when someone inevitably over extends Bot is a long lane that has supports who are exteptionally good at setting up ganks in a lot of cases Mid is WAY harder to gank. Its rare to see midlaners more than 2-3 seconds from their tower
Dude, just stop. Mid is also located between the other 2 lanes, making it twice as likely to see the jg's attention as he's passing through.
Eedat (NA)
: Are you kidding? Mid is ***by far*** the hardest lane to gank.
: Riot has explicitly stated they want to bring more champions into bot lane. And you have just illustrated my point in people not wanting ADCs in any other position. So I ask again: If ADCs aren't supposed to go anywhere but bot lane, but are getting kicked out of bot lane, where the hell are they going to go?
Riot talks a lot but doesn't think very far ahead about the consequences of their actions.
Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ponderss,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T03:06:09.010+0000) > > You say that as if mages don't need items, which is completely ridiculous btw. Try playing a mage in bot lane as an experiment. Watch what happens, just in terms of winning lane. The odds are stacked against you. And try playing ADC in the mid lane and watch what happens??? In terms of winning lane the odds are stacked against you. 90% of what you said **also applies to marksmen** but the mage circle jerk is too biased to admit it. They say stuff like ''Oh mages can only go mid!''Really because you guys have plagued bot lane. What about marksmen? You think Caitlyn Sivir Ashe MF Draven Tristana Twitch can go mid or top? **No** They fucking cant. Theres a few outliers like Twitch and Kaisa going Jungle just as theres a few outliers with mages going top such as Lissandra Swain and Vlad. Kindred can ONLY jungle.
If I worked for riot I would say that mages don't go sup in pro-play - therefore your point is invalid. But I want to add to that, even if you consider the rare events in Pro-play where Cassio/Swain/whatever are seen in top lane, that doesn't mean they're (or mages as a class) viable. If you consider just the pro-games, their appearance top is an insignificant statistical blip, and that's never-minding the contortions those well-coordinated teams made to accommodate the composition, or whether they won. Basing your systemic decisions/conclusions on statistically insignificant and irreproducible data constitutes fraud, bias and/or quackery.
Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T18:23:21.930+0000) > > ADC mid is actually pretty successful. Show me.
What do you think is going to happen? You get poked out of lane with ADC auto-attacks, while the mana constrained mage gets pushed further under the turret.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ponderss,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T23:08:04.808+0000) > > Have you noticed that most mages aren't really viable anywhere else but mid? I think you've missed the obvious here in that you don't see them played anywhere else. Gee, I wonder why???? I would posit its because mages are already constrained by resources, are very squishy, often immobile, and don't have dps on right click. I don' think you people have thought this through very far at all, and you're removing mages to a point that you would have to redesign every kit to make them viable somewhere. But they aren't that constraint beyond the early game. Mid to late game, siege would last forever simply because mages would waveclear from miles away, with no repurcussions. Lost chapter and tear remove any mana concern, which is supposed to be mages weakness.
How can you call games that snowball into 20-30 min endings to be 'lasting forever'? I guess if the goal here is to make a series of changes that allow league to be played over 15 minutes on your mobile device as a long term goal for the game, then ok.
: > [{quoted}](name=SmashinBob,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Aglk4GVE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-04-19T11:22:14.853+0000) > > Already said this in a few comments, but i find it annoying when i win the early lane mid or just have a few better trades, and then the enemy midlaner goes into shoving waves to prevent from fighting, it makes the lane really boring. So i like the mana change, it makes it so the losing midlaner cant just shove waves to prevent fighting, he should defend or actually spec into mana items if he wants to shove. They shove the lane to gank bot lane. Thats literally mid meta right now
They shove lane to opt OUT of fighting, usually because of enemy range, jg activity, roaming side lanes. They're just getting outpoked.
: "I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally" -Penguin
Let me fix that for you "I'm surprised by the amount of negative discussion around mana changes but altogether unmoved, if we cared about your play experience we would have asked for it before making them". - Some overpaid rioter.
: Clash NA beta - What’s changing? Your feedback in action!
Would have been nice for you to solicit feedback for the mage changes _before _throwing it on the PBE, which is essentially concrete near as I can tell.
: What... What did you do to Malzahar?
Faker died. LC$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I feel like the changes to MalzR were warranted, but its sad what it took to finally get it fixed.
Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ponderss,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-19T02:26:12.239+0000) > > That might be a fair point, worth considering. If ADs didn't already have great waveclear on their own, They dont have good wave clear on their own. They have to buy items ( Stattik Shiv ). Same as Mages have good wave clear on their own but need mana to sustain it. ) > I would say mages are picked because that is **their role**. Second, a team comp based entirely on AD is just unwise. A team comp based entirely on AP is just unwise too. > So why not put your mage in bot lane? Because mages aren't viable. The reason? ADs are tons more competitive in mid If by competitive you mean pro play, there hasent been a single AD champ mid for the whole year. I dont even recall a mid AD champ being picked last year either. >by comparison because most ADs have better range and damage, Most ADs dont have better range. You're just talking. Show me what you mean who are you comparing. When you say better damage, Mages have better utility and items fall back easily giving you 2.3k health +++. Thats the trade off. ADCs dont ever get 2k health late game you'll see them at like 1.6-1.7. Let alone items like Zhonyas and Seraph giving you great survivability. > and don't need a resource to outpoke. That alone makes AD waveclear good enough in the early game to set a mage behind. By ''outpoke'' if you mean autos they actually do, its called rapid and stattik ( which i think is unhealthy ) but thats not an ADC problem thats just what the item is **made to do, out poke you for one auto**. Im not sure why you keep saying ADs have good wave clear when they need to buy items to have wave clear while mages inherently have wave clear in their kit. I get what you're saying. But a lot of it is bullshit. You're saying stuff that is opposite like ''adcs have wave clear'' No, they dont. Stattik shiv GIVES them wave clear. Mages actually have inherent waveclear.
You say that as if mages don't need items, which is completely ridiculous btw. Try playing a mage in bot lane as an experiment. Watch what happens, just in terms of winning lane. The odds are stacked against you.
Hópe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ponderss,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T23:08:04.808+0000) > > Have you noticed that most mages aren't really viable anywhere else but mid? I think you've missed the obvious here in that you don't see them played anywhere else. Gee, I wonder why???? I would posit its because mages are already constrained by resources, are very squishy, often immobile, and don't have dps on right click. I don' think you people have thought this through very far at all, and you're removing mages to a point that you would have to redesign every kit to make them viable somewhere. And to say something you might find contentious, Marksmen dont have other places to go either. You see Caitlyn Xayah Sivir Ashe MF Varus in other lanes? Nope You see Quinn top? yeah but not bot lane, You see graves Jungle? Yeah but not bot lane. You see Talon and Zed top support jungle or bot? Nope, only mid. Mages arent that special. Stop treating them as if you were getting beat up while other roles are fine dining with steak.
That might be a fair point, worth considering. If ADs didn't already have great waveclear on their own, I would say mages are picked because that is **their role**. Second, a team comp based entirely on AD is just unwise. So why not put your mage in bot lane? Because mages aren't viable. The reason? ADs are tons more competitive in mid by comparison because most ADs have better range and damage, and don't need a resource to outpoke. That alone makes AD waveclear good enough in the early game to set a mage behind. As a mage, the mid/late game waveclear **IS **the incentive, when set behind you can eventually catch up, **if **other lanes aren't hopelessly collapsed and the game is headed to fatality. The wave clear function is a temporary backstop that allows a losing lane a chance at redemption, leading to less snowball games and increased macro play.
: Do you think manaless mid laners will need nerfs to compensate for their competition being weaker?
{{champion:157}} Hasagi! Nope.
: If you an Ap user prepare to adjust to your new build
These people are super ignorant. Just forget it. They'll run league into the ground before they snap out of it.
: > [{quoted}](name=penguin,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-04-18T23:34:52.497+0000) > > I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally, as the manaflow band changes we shipped recently had a much more noticeable effect on how the laning phase played out IMO. I haven't experienced any feelings that the class feels dramatically weaker in our playtests. > How is it surprising to you that an awful change receives negative feedback? If wave clear is such a problem then actually nerf the biggest offenders? How fucking hard is it to make X champions ability only do X% damage to minions? Why the fuck should mages should mages go oom in teamfights when ADCs have higher damage and burst that they can do infinitely independent of mana constraints? Why when you have some tanks and fighters that literally have fucking assassin levels of burst of squishy champions with a single rotation? So now i have to stay a mile away from teamfights, manage my positioning, manage my mana, while someone on an Irelia or Camille with 2 fucking damage items can just run up to me at any time, mash his face and kill me in 1 second. Why the fuck should mages be forced to "fight over blue buffs and Ocean Drakes" in order to simply do their job when no other fucking class of champions in the game rely on global objectives to do theirs? > > I believe that players learning to opt OUT of interaction with their opponents has made the game a lot less fun, and every time I see an Inspiration/Resolve TF with Minion Dematerializer, I get a little sad. I > Then remove Minion Dematerializer??? If wave clear is such a problem then why the fuck is this rune even in the game at this point?? Do you see anyone other than mages actually take it? NOPE. Do you see anyone other than champions who already have great wave clear take it??? NOPE. So literally wtf are you guys doing?? Seems like a pretty simple way to help reduce wave clear. > > I do think there will be followup balance necessary, however, as opting out of interaction is how you survive the laning phase against a lot of assassins (Fizz/Zed/LeBlanc) and believe that trying to get towards a state where it is a fallback strategy as opposed to the optimized strategy in most matchups is desirable for making mid lane more fun over the long term. > Oh so you mean literally everyone who is remotely mana hungry will just go Archangels Staff? So much for item diversity, that rework was all but pointless now. If you think that those pitiful nerfs to Tear will dissuade anyone from building this item in a mana starved environment you're kidding yourselves.
The sad part is that Riot decides these things in advance of asking for feedback.
penguin (NA)
: I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally, as the manaflow band changes we shipped recently had a much more noticeable effect on how the laning phase played out IMO. I haven't experienced any feelings that the class feels dramatically weaker in our playtests. I believe that players learning to opt OUT of interaction with their opponents has made the game a lot less fun, and every time I see an Inspiration/Resolve TF with Minion Dematerializer, I get a little sad. I do think there will be followup balance necessary, however, as opting out of interaction is how you survive the laning phase against a lot of assassins (Fizz/Zed/LeBlanc) and believe that trying to get towards a state where it is a fallback strategy as opposed to the optimized strategy in most matchups is desirable for making mid lane more fun over the long term.
Literally **all **of your recent balance decisions have promoted opting OUT of opponent interaction. {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} How could you possibly be surprised? Even your oh so holy LCS matches are boring to watch because almost nothing happens.
: Swain, Ryze, Cassiopeia, and Vlad have all seen pro play Top this season, so I don't really agree. I do agree that Mages are on the weaker side Support and Jungle currently, but those champions are far more likely to go non-mana builds than Mid laners and as such should be nerfed relatively less by these changes (in the case of Junglers they are buffed from the base stat changes).
~~4 ~~ 3 mages out of how many again? In outlier games? In one role out of 5? Is that a joke? You realize those numbers aren't statistically significant, right? Let me know if you need some help for calculating P-values.
: I'm personally very in favor of the mana changes. Mages have been dominant Mid lane in competitive for multiple seasons now, and their ability to successfully farm out the wave via PvE wave clearing has been a huge component. I think this is a necessary step if we are going to get other classes back into Mid in competitive, which is clearly a win to me (no single class should dominate a position for multiple years). We have been testing some slightly different numbers than what's on PBE now, so I'm not yet confident that the current changes are quite hitting the mark in terms of tuning. Hopefully we can get them into a good spot for 8.9 though and if it turns out Mages are still circumventing resource management afterwards we can do followup further nerfs to the culprit (I'd suspect it'd be Tear in this scenario).
Have you noticed that most mages aren't really viable anywhere else but mid? I think you've missed the obvious here in that you don't see them played anywhere else. Gee, I wonder why???? I would posit its because mages are already constrained by resources, are very squishy, often immobile, and don't have dps on right click. I don' think you people have thought this through very far at all, and you're removing mages to a point that you would have to redesign every kit to make them viable somewhere.
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.9
I'm so glad we're having this discussion about resource management. What are your plans for {{champion:157}} ? Is it finally time for that rework you brought up last JUNE? Is he getting a mana bar? How do you plan on balancing his waveclear for the new mageless meta?
: its not an issue for you... Yasuo is perma ban in bronze.
: Probably because its not a very solid-esh ball of magic unlike something that's filled with complete darkness. Rather an ethereal form of something until it becomes active. Then it has a shadow over top of the landing spot.
You ever get hit with it? Its solid. : )
Risen29 (NA)
: It's not much of a strategy game without limited resources. You don't have to make smart decisions about when and where to use your abilities, you just spam them whenever they are up. This game was better back when running out of mana was a real concern for every champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Risen29,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ENUXm2Ym,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:32:47.771+0000) > > It's not much of a strategy game without limited resources. You don't have to make smart decisions about when and where to use your abilities, you just spam them whenever they are up. {{champion:157}}
Rioter Comments
: Meanwhile Zed’s waveclear
Yes, lets talk about resource management and waveclear shall we? {{champion:157}}
Hópe (NA)
: ***
: Mana changes won't solve the mid lane waveclear issue
I've been thinking wave clear is a good thing. I mean, if your bot lane is failing, its a backstop that gives your team time for a comeback. Are we against comebacks riot? Is the game supposed to be linear and over after first turret? And resource-free champs? Should we all be picking {{champion:157}} now?
: Ryze work on PBE
I'm so glad we're having this discussion about resource management. What are your plans for {{champion:157}}? Is it finally time for that rework you brought up last JUNE? Is he getting a mana bar? How do you plan on balancing his waveclear for the new meta?
: eh mages haven't had to manage mana at all since manaflow band. Its unhealthy that mages can spam spells and miss with no punishment of lost resource. I'm not saying ADCs are healthy by any stretch, but Mages do need to have their resource management adjusted. And honestly I think theyre making it a priority over ADCs tunes because mage supports are becoming the dominant support role, which isn't supposed to really happen. But when Brand can freely spam his spells with no repurcussions to doing so, you may as well play him or whatever your mage of choice is.
{{champion:157}} Yes, lets have a discussion about resource management.
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Ponderss

Level 127 (NA)
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