nm1010 (NA)
: Shen benefits more from the % energy gain on kill/assist already so this isn't really necessary.
80-90/400-450 is 20% 40-50/200-250 is also 20%. He benefits the same from the % energy restore and less from the % gain.
Rioter Comments
: Please Bring Back Old Aatrox
{{champion:28}} as well. Or at the least have champions to take their place. Pre-rework Evelynn filled a unique niche as a jungler being hybrid AD, AP, mixed, or AS focused to shred through targets after stalking them. Now she's a constantly top 3 jungler sure, but it isn't healthy and she builds the same 4 items every single game. I get that the tank build on her was an issue, but that could have been avoided just with higher ratios and her new ult while keeping her malleable build path that made her adapt to the game's needs. Right now the closest to a character that can shred a target from stealth is {{champion:56}}, who is likely on the chopping block for a complete rework outside of his ult anyway.
: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Presence_of_Mind > Champions that use energy as a resource restore 40 − 50 energy and can only have a maximum of 250 energy. >**With the exception of Shen,** who restores 80 − 90 energy and reaches a maximum of 450 energy. i think they thought it through already and decided on this.
Yes, because 400+50 is 450, a 1.125x increase, instead of the 1.25x increase the other energy champions get. That is the point of the thread. The % restored has nothing to do with it.
5050BS (NA)
: This is where I would go. WHY he has double is just inconsistent (not like that is not par for Riot)
His costs and pool are doubled so he has longer down time and harsher punishment for misusing energy. Otherwise he'd be able to free farm and trade with Q constantly online from level 1.
Rioter Comments
: If Senna is meant to be primarily a support...
I think just stronger AP ratios on her heal/shield (and lower base on all of her damage and her buffs alike) would help in that regard. If she wants to go damage as a carry support or as the game's adc, fine, but she should have to give up a large part of her utility to do so. I kind of wish there was a way to boost the effect of heal/shield power on her without just amping up her base heal numbers, but maybe lowering the AP ratio on her damage but bumping it even more on her heal/shield could work to do that. So she could build {{item:3905}} {{item:3089}} alongside three heal power items to reach her max CDR and focus on her supportive characteristics without Q/R being full screen nukes.
Nhika (NA)
: Bring back 1v5 Poppy?
She can still soft-carry and get picks with wallstuns on a full AD build, but my issue with her is that playing anything but full AD feels like a waste. Her defensive items got completely gutted in the7.6 midseason tank patch, her defensive runes and masteries got completely gutted in pre-season 8 removing 13-31 armor from runes and 20+ from masteries, and then her W resistances got cut by a third along with a shorter knock up on R preventing her from doing her full combo or even doing R-> run past -> tackle the enemy toward your team. Only once the stat shards got put in and partially reverted her missing runes (now missing 1-19 armor and still missing the 20+ from masteries) did she start to feel properly able to build tank without dying instantly. But then her W got reworked with compensation nerfs on a 1% PR 47% WR champion that were (mostly) reverted. It's like every change is half a step forward and 4 steps back on her. Right now between her missing resistances from items, runes, masteries, and her own kit, she doesn't even counter the kind of burst and/or dash focused champions she's supposed to like {{champion:86}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:516}}, and even what are supposed to be her strongest matchups are near 50/50 {{champion:92}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:84}}. I mean sure she's capable of beating them, but it isn't from being a tank, it's from outmatching them in damage. It's telling that her highest winrate items are bruiser/offtank all-in burst options like {{item:3078}} {{item:3742}} while her completed tank items sit closer to the 48-51% WR range. I don't want 5v1 superbruiser Poppy. Hell revert her Q damage to 7% health per hit and take off the +5 damage to her spells from pre-season 8's changes as long as she gets her items and W resistances back.
Crashyy (EUW)
: +9 adaptive force, 8 armor, 6 magic resist, 15-90 HP...It's boring.
It also doesn't help that the new stat shards so massively favor offense in an already damage-centric meta. How about instead of an "offensive" "defensive" and "flex" path, set up a Major rune, a Minor rune, and Scaling rune? It would still allow for the kind of flexibility of the old rune system without the minutia of a 0.8 difference in armor to eek out a level 1 trade. So you could have like Major runes 8 armor, 9 MR, 50 health, 10% AS, 9 adaptive force, 3% Move Speed so celerity can be replaced with something useful on more than 2 champions, 5% bonus starting mana/energy just so {{champion:98}} doesn't get left out like he does from the flat energy boost on the new PoM Minor runes 4 Armor, 5 MR, 25 health, 4% AS, 4 adaptive force, 5% CDR Scaling runes 1-17 armor, 1-18 MR, 4-80 health, 1-10% AS, 1-13 adaptive force, 12.5% bonus critical strike damage, 1-10% CDR I took into account the (basically) universal 8 AD and 9 Armor increases to base stats from pre-season 8 as well as the removal of mpen to negate MR runes. The end result for builds should be around the equivalent of taking the remaining open runes (half a red, 6-9 blues based on the stat, and quintessences) The result is (if going for, say, full AD) starting at the equivalent value as taking a full page of flat runes of that stat, and ending with taking the combination of strongest flats and strongest scaling runes together. For CDR, I went with the "5 flat and 10 scaling" approach that was common for midlane mages like {{champion:61}}, and threw in couple other fun missing runes like crit damage for {{champion:51}} {{champion:22}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:235}} and anyone else I'm forgetting that has unique interactions with crits and crit chance. No 1% critical strike chance though, sorry grifters looking for randomly trades level 1 for no reason; you'll have to keep picking {{champion:23}} for that. Is anything significant missing from here (taking into account that yellows and 8.5/9 reds are locked from the season 8 changes)? I know things like gold, health and mana regen, and respawn timing are still missing, but those weren't exactly vital to a unique playstyle like move speed or crit damage are.
: What is a Juggernaut Mechanic/Steroid? Explained.
Fun theory. But it isn't the connecting trend of Juggernauts. What Juggernauts offer universally is "stickiness," that is, the ability to prevent an opponent from disengaging through pulls {{champion:122}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:82}}, running targets down with repeated slows/locks on low cd {{champion:36}}{{champion:2}}{{champion:77}}, powerful long-lasting slows {{champion:75}}, trapping them in place {{champion:83}} {{champion:48}}, preventing the opponent from using their disengage tools at all {{champion:86}} {{champion:31}}, or punishing the opponent for trying to run away {{champion:420}} {{champion:102}} is the only character classified as a Juggernaut that does not fit this "anti-disengage" mold, and she's really more of a Diver akin to {{champion:240}} or {{champion:254}} with her ult engages anyway. There are also a couple of non-juggernaut characters that fit the bill and could easily be classified as such: {{champion:68}}, classified as a battlemage, has an extremly potent, long-lasting, and retreat-punishing ultimate as well as the melee-range of the others. {{champion:72}} who has been classified and then taken off and then back on then off the juggernaut list, with the most iconic pull in the game.
: Can we have a rework on what Champions are considered Melee and Ranged?
The only of those melee characters with an actual ranged auto is {{champion:78}}'s passive and {{champion:62}}. The rest all dash or blink toward their target when using the empowered auto, and even in Wukong's case it plays just as much as a spell that deals on-hit effects as it does a ranged auto. The two mid-ranged champions you mentioned were classified as ranged specifically BECAUSE of their otherwise stronger interactions with melee items. {{champion:6}} is already incredibly strong with ranged {{item:3022}} procs, and Rakan is one of the safest of both protective and engaging supports without a melee-powered {{item:3109}}. There could be merit to have a character designed around hitting with melee attacks at close range and projectiles at longer distances, able to build both {{item:3077}} and {{item:3085}}, but that champion would need to be designed from the ground up around that interaction and duality. Just be happy that ranged supports can proc {{item:3858}} execute at all now. Before the only one who could use it was {{champion:412}} by storing up E power.
: At what rank does ping/ms actually become a major factor?
It should be obvious, but it depends more on the champion than the level of play. {{champion:13}} combos are virtually impossible to get even remotely frame-tight outside of LAN play, and {{champion:64}} R tricks become undoable around 100p. Someone like {{champion:268}} who's mechanical intensity comes from buffered spells though, wouldn't be nearly as affected.
Rioter Comments
: Tanks are useless in this game now we are out damage/mobile/tank.
ADCs are supposed to be what beats tanks, along with shredders and machinegun mages like {{champion:13}}. The issue is that now so do assassins. And divers. And Juggernauts. And burst mages. And artillery mages at point blank range. And, well I guess they don't lose to full Healing Power Janna. Especially when those characters don't even need to be building {{item:3153}} /{{item:3071}} /{{item:3036}} / {{item:3135}} to do beat the tanks. Best "tanks" are {{champion:23}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:44}} (Oh hey he actually is a tank) {{champion:8}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:28}} because the only way any character is living longer than 2 seconds anymore is with full-on invincibility and free eject buttons.
Bârd (NA)
: Rumble's passive just has tons of hidden info. It doesn't even tell you how long it takes after a spell cast for heat to start decaying.
That is specifically what I'm talking about, an indicator in his hud that ticks down like Jax's passive stacks. It would help a LOT with keeping his heat from falling below 50% after he initially gets it there.
Rioter Comments
: My only issue with Ivern is that his W feels too...uselesss. The utility of hiding is way, WAY too niche and everyone knows people can hide in it. I honestly think if Ivern W was reworked into something more useful he would have no trouble being useful.
Imagine if CertianlyT had designed Ivern. He would be able to Q leap into bushes, E could be cast on enemies to give them an "anti-shield" that amplifies damage they take, passive would work on minion waves, hiding in bush would make him immune to tower shots, and Daisy would auto dash to and knockup enemies instantly.
: Jungle is perfectly fine
Gold was never the issue. It's being two levels behind everyone that makes the role unpalatable.
: unpopular opinion: Ignite should NOT kill you, but only lower your health to 1 hp
Buff {{summoner:21}}'s duration so it actually helps against it, would be a start. Fucking {{summoner:7}} mid ignite mitigates more damage than barrier's abysmal duration does. Even through the Grevious wounds Heal just outclasses Barrier by miles. Hell I'd settle for Ignite even doing its same damage over 4s from 5 if Barrier's duration was increased for 2 to 4 to match it. The damage would still eat through Barrier, but at the least it would give partial respite from the spell.
: Akali is poorly designed.
Her numbers are much closer to "too strong" than on the side of "awkwardly awful." Q-auto at level 1 does 25 + 40 + 39 + 20 = 124 magic damage from a single spell even starting {{item:1054}} and without Absolute Focus, and this can be recast two additional times for that same damage in addition to the base 62.4 x 3 = 187 damage from the autos themselves. Most spells from most champions at the same level deal around 75 + 10 damage on a cooldown four times as long.
: depends: do you play a tank? get a armor/mr item and watch them hit you for 5 minutes without lowering your health bar much do you play a bruiser/juggernaut/fighter/whatever you call them? get trinity or black cleaver or whatever you buy first, press q + aa on them and watch half their hp bar vanish instantly.
Damage scales at twice the rate of resistances, and building armor/MR means you're giving up the ability to push lane and auto lose priority. Tanks lose to ranged matchups harder than any other melees do. At least Irelia can outbroken them with an all-in and auto clear because she builds damage to match.
: > [{quoted}](name=PopcornBunni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ia8kET8f,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-01T03:06:13.339+0000) > > Battlemages as a class focus on sustained damage. Anything that builds {{item:3194}} and the deliberately anti-Magic champions ({{champion:38}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:36}}{{champion:164}} ) specifically do strongly against the kind of damage battlemages output. > > They also have the lowest mobility in the game and no escape options outside of {{champion:8}} pool, so any of the hypermobile recent releases can easily outplay many of them {{champion:84}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:55}} > > And finally, anything with good waveclear/poke can keep battlemages under tower while they roam and make plays {{champion:245}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:101}} so they are a mage juggernauts basically?
Not exactly, but there is some overlap. {{champion:31}} has traits of both, and {{champion:68}} could easily be classified as a juggernaut over a mage. More so they don't offer the same thing to a team as a juggernaut. While a Juggernaut's biggest strength is their ability to keep an opponent from running away ({{champion:122}} pull, {{champion:83}} cage, {{champion:82}} THUNDERDOME), what battlemages offer is more like a magic varient of the ADC: sustained damage from range across an entire fight. They're also much squishier than Juggernauts outside of the already mentioned {{champion:31}} /{{champion:68}}, and can get collapsed on as long as they aren't already under their tower. (RIP to all the Talon mains that died being baited by Eggnivia)
: > [{quoted}](name=GFREEMEN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8KBQJKIn,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-12-01T08:02:13.847+0000) > > EZ so with all the Lifesteal you never run out of HP so you can tank anything as [insert ADC/AD Bruiser] Came off a game I won as tank voli but the enemy Xayah had Sanguine Blade+ PD and it was disgusting. I even had thornmail+deadman's+BC(for the fed maokai) and that ADC could pretty much outduel me if I didn't flash out her Bladecaller. Pretty stupid an ADC can just stand there and trade autos with you and manage to outsustain you if my ult is down as Voli without even needing to kite.
Okay to be fair ADCs are the one category of champion that is supposed to hard win 1v1 vs tanky opponents, but I think there's something to be said that not a single champion goes for Cut Down over Coup de Grace or even Last Stand, and that ADCs don't even feel the need to build {{item:3036}} in most games because the amount of actual armor to penetrate isn't worth it.
: It’s almost impossible to get an S on Neeko
Powerfarming will get you S more than going for risky plays. Playing her in an off role will also make it easier. Get lucky with an attentive ADC to set up root assists as a support, or play Jungle until you can get a team that can hold their own in every lane and outfarm the shit of your jungle opponent. Obviously if you're S hunting, play in Normals so if your MMR tanks from hyper-focusing on the categories for an S it won't hurt your placements next season.
Navarune (NA)
: This, of course, is following the recent nerfs to his scaling (thankfully). I think he's in a really good spot right now.
> [{quoted}](name=Navarune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ly1H5aE0,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-01T08:07:43.601+0000) > > This, of course, is following the recent nerfs to his scaling (thankfully). I think he's in a really good spot right now. Even then, it was 400 AP to match R's base damage, and a 240% AP ratio total. The bigger problem is how reliable it is, which is why for the most reliable part of the combo, that ratio was lowered, as opposed to lowering the ratio of the best AP scaling ability in his kit, his E. I mean hell, the dude only needs 500 armor, for the armor damage scaling in his kit, and that's doable with just a couple items thanks to his passive bonus armor. That being said, if you want to try a very very silly scaling build, {{item:3047}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3025}} with transcendence gives something in the ballpark of 1000 armor, 350 AP, and {{item:3025}} slows with a larger radius than towers.
Rewt (NA)
: can we just gut Malphite AP Scalings?
450 AP to match the base damage on Q, 450 for W, 334 for E, and 500 for R are pretty far from "good" AP scaling. The ratios themselves are nothing spectacular, but the amount AP adds to his base damage is not remotely comparable to AP assassins. Compare to an actual AP assassin's scaling, {{champion:105}}: 127 AP to match Q, 211 for W, 385 for E, and 416 for R {{champion:245}} : 175 AP for P, 289 for Q, 106 for W's shield, 375 for E, and 300 for the damage of R {{champion:28}} 171 for all of Q, 200 for E, (160 for empoewered E), and 500 for R. Of those, only Evelynn's R matches the poor scaling of Malphite, and her whole combo scales far better. Malphite's AP ratios are nothing out of the ordinary for champions with AP scaling in general and his damage is going to scale much better just with cooldown reduction. For another comparison here is a tank with all AP ratios that you never see built AP {{champion:154}} 300 AP to match Q, 400 AP to match W, 289 to match E, and 700 for R Again, the only thing out of the ordinary is the R scaling, and that has as much to do with malphite's "assassin level scaling" as it does with Zac's large base damage. Even looked at in terms of the total % of AP added to the damage combo, Malphite hits for 220% AP, Zac hits for 210% AP (+2% enemy health per 100), while Fizz hits for 340% and Evelyn for 270% (+2.5% health per 100). The only reason AP Malphite is a thing at all is because his ult combo is uninteruptable. The damage itself is much less and much worse than an actual dedicated AP carry, it's just much easier to land. And nice edit to save face for "not just talking about assassins". Still demonstrably false. {{champion:76}}: 325 AP human Q, 200 for cougar Q, 1000 for human W, 700 for cougar W, 354 for human E heal, 578 for cougar E. More spells to scale so the Ws are worse, but still has 231% AP scaling with just a short-range Q and no bonus takedown damage. Adding range to human Q and even just against a 50% health target with cougar Q, it goes up to 306%. Or is Nidalee not an "actual AP Jungler"?
: Can anyone explain how tanks can actually be tanks.
Make {{item:3102}} a tank item again for a start. The mid-season 7 tank update was one of the worst large scale updates in the game and a big part of that is because it completely ruined tank itemization and removed the dedicated anti-burst MR option from their item pool so that mages could build it and then proceed to never do so in the 2-and-a-half years since. The next step would be to bump the pure damage items down to the gold value that tanks get. For armor item, that value ranges from around 70% Gold efficient ({{item:3075}} ) to 85% ({{item:3068}}) MR items a bit more efficient in that regard, and {{item:3065}} is above gold efficient, but that efficiency comes from the base health regen. Without additional healing in a tank's kit, it isn't much better than {{item:3194}}'s 88% gold efficiency. The reason the raw gold efficiency is so important in this discussion comes from how damage and resistances scale. It's been said by some, erroneously, that resistances "fall off" in their damage mitigation. This isn't true, but what is true is that point for point, damage scales at twice the rate of resistance. Consider two identical champions auto attack trading: 1000 health 100 AD 100 AR (= 2000 effective health vs physical damage) vs 1000 100 100 = 20 autos to kill Add 50 AD to one and 50 Armor to the other: 1000 health 150 AD 100 AR vs 1000 100 150 (=2500 effective health) = 16.6 autos to kill (17 whole autos) How about 100 extra armor instead? = 3000 effective health =20 autos to kill Point for point, you need twice the bonus armor as an opposing AD build needs AD to match them. Now, the base items already indicate an issue. {{item:1029}} grants 15 armor for 300g (20g per point) {{item:1036}} grants 10 AD for 350 (35g per point). That is, AD costs 1.75x the cost of armor. Oh, AD outscales armor at a 2x rate, but only costs 1.75x. Hmm, maybe things look better on the magical end? MR and AP isn't quite the same comparison since AP ratios differ among champions, but the general rule that governs the cost of AP vs AD is that both should cost around 60% of their physical counterpart. Ahh! Well, see, while AP costs 60% (okay, 62% and some decimals) the cost of AD, MR costs 90% of the price of Armor, at 18g per point. That explains in large part why even without MR shred, AP champions with at least 62% AP ratios will just out trade against the same cost of a pure MR build. And that's not even going into the fact that tanks need to split the resistances they build making them half-again as effective against BOTH damage types. Before mid-season 7 this was less of an issue, as both the largest MR and AR items -- {{item:3065}} and {{item:3742}} / {{item:3068}}, granted more health which helped against the opposing damage type and multiplied the effect of the resistance they granted by that much more. For the armor items' case, that's 75 more health but 10 less armor (Granting a total of 750 effective health on its own compared to the 680 effective health from the live version). For {{item:3065}} it's 50 more health and 5 less MR (750 effective health vs 697.5 for live). With the higher health, both together granted much more tankiness than the combination does currently: 1500 effective health against both damage types, compared to live's 1400 vs physical and 1356.25 vs magic damage. But riot wasn't done, no sir. Later that year would see pre-season 8 and ~~MASTERIES RENAMED~~ I mean RUNES REFORGED. With this new rune system, not only were armor red/yellows/quints and scaling MR blues gone removing ~27 of both resistances, but a lot, and I mean a lot a lot, of resistances were completely cut from the Masteries themselves. Siegemaster gone -8 both resistances. Unyielding gone -5% bonus resistances. Veteran's scars gone -50 health. Fearless gone -10% +1.5 per level resistances. Legendary guardian gone -3 resistances in 1v1s, -6/9 in skirmishes, and - 15 in team fights. Stoneborn pact GONE -5% health. And in the place of all of that? +9 base armor to compensate missing yellows; 9 resistances +5% only after laning phase is already lost; and a whopping 33 health after 13 waves of nonstop uninterrupted farming (~8 minutes of never leaving lane from the start of the first wave to the end of the 13th.). Oh and that farm eventually gives +3.5% health if you never go for objectives or help the team in any way for 20 minutes. Woo. So 27 +8 +3 +1.5 +5% +10% = 45.485 resistance and 50 +5% = 52.5 health minimum (level 1, and against 1 opponent) gone , and 9 +9 +5% = 18.9 armor, 9 +10% = 9.45 MR, and 66 +3.5% = 89.1 health maximum after 20 minutes added. I mean maybe someone at riot just.. Forgot to compensate for the missing stats entirely with the new runes? Oh nope carry champions get infinitely scaling AP/AD or 20 bonus adaptive force above 70% health and +9 base AD and +16 adaptive force and 6 armorpen/mpen for walking into a brush and 20 bonus adaptive force for warding/oneshotting 0.01second faster than their opponent. So they didn't forget to compensate them fuck no.
: This is what Diana 2.0 is
Looks nothing like old Akali. Akali had a point-and-click Q , dash had no cost and could be used three times in a row, had stealth, and dealt hybrid damage. This is no more like old Akali than the current Diana is. She's still a pure AP diver without any escape tools, and just has all-in potential in-lane. Hell she's more like an AP Talon than an Akali.
: what class beats a battle mage?
Battlemages as a class focus on sustained damage. Anything that builds {{item:3194}} and the deliberately anti-Magic champions ({{champion:38}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:36}}{{champion:164}} ) specifically do strongly against the kind of damage battlemages output. They also have the lowest mobility in the game and no escape options outside of {{champion:8}} pool, so any of the hypermobile recent releases can easily outplay many of them {{champion:84}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:55}} And finally, anything with good waveclear/poke can keep battlemages under tower while they roam and make plays {{champion:245}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:103}} {{champion:101}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkstar Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1PFuTwZk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-30T19:30:35.015+0000) > > Why is no one jungling? C'mon, jungle mains. Get your tails back online. I know it sucks, but we need you :( I'm moving to support, screw that. Riot destroyed the JG, we CAN play it but why WOULD we? Even when winning it's just NOT fun. I don't want to be forced to play boring one dimensional champions just to win.
Support got destroyed too. If you aren't playing a carry support that can compensate the ridiculous gold income nerfs to tanks/enchanters you're SOL. Same deal with Jungle where if you aren't playing an early invader to set the enemy back you're going to be the one getting set back and never being able to catch up. Top is also fucked due to rift herald nerfs making it ridiculously easy to stop removing any reason for the Jungle to hover top pre-20 so {{champion:122}} and friends get to shove and overextend for free with no punishment. Only things worth playing are Mid and Bot this preseason, but even then Bot gets a knock-on effect from the support meta revolving around carries.
Rioter Comments
: "enjoy your ban" They usually follow up with retorts that only solidify their ban, provided their behavior is consistent between games at all. Almost any time I've 'had' to say it, I was graced with a feedback report. ____________ Is it a bit scummy to bait them into getting banned? Yeah, probably. Do they still deserve it? Yeah, probably.
Announcing reports is as bannable as the toxic attitude. The real answer is to ignore, then if it goes on, mute and report at the end of the game and don't say anything about it. Just put in the comment section of the report what toxic chat or behaviors took place and let riot handle it. If the player keeps up their bad attitude it will show from several reports in several games.
: I thought 8 % true dmg on conqueror Whats pushing tanks away.Why arent tanks good after its gone ?
Tanks have been shit since the midseason 7 tank update 7.6 fucked their itemization, and then they got double fucked when new runes removed 32 scaling MR, around 30 early Armor, and 50+ early health between runes and masteries. Adding armor back into rune shards was scant compensation since the amount of armor is 240 gold worth while AD shards get over 350 extra gold worth of stats at the very start of the game. All of the tank runes that actually provide tankiness are conditional with high cooldown (Shield bash, Aftershock, Bone Plating), or only activate once laning phase is long since over (Overgrowth, Conditioning) Couple an early game stat deficit with Damage outscaling resistances at a rate of 1.5:1 and final tank items being both less gold efficient and much less slot efficient than offensive equivalents, and you get a game where tanks are not viable for solo queue unless they're building full damage themselves (A million parentheses ({{champion:3}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:113}} ) ) There's also the more general issue where the stats tanks have to build; health, armor, MR; provide no wave clear or objective taking power, while carries build stats that both help them win trades AND take objectives. And of course, the fact that carries can build a single stat, or two at most, while tanks have to split their buys into both resistances and end up unable to take both types of damage as well as they could. And, of course, "as well as they could" would be 66% as efficient as, say a 5 AD comp from the enemy.
Rioter Comments
Quáx (NA)
: And what sucks is even when you build tanky, you still deal damage Seriously look at Poppy right now, I've had several games with poppy that just smacks me around and I can't do anything because of Armor. This game is truely a mess rn.
Poppy main here and I think her damage does need hit, but along with most others as well. Revert the +5 damage buff from preseason 8 since it was made to compensate for missing stats from runes (which are no longer missing with stat shards), revert her %health damage to 7% from 8%, and increase her, along with other tanks', ability to actually tank damage. Emphasis on tanking sustained damage for wardens as they're meant to peel and body block, and on tanking burst damage for Vanguards since they are meant to soak the initial brunt of an engage while applying CC. For Poppy, this would involve some combination of a base health regen buff and a higher damage threshold for her W passive bonus from 40% -> 50%, and reverting the nerfs to her bonus resistances from 10% -> 12%. This would be a mostly lateral shift in power but likely leave her all-in power a bit weaker. Her R AD scaling could be increased to compensate a {{item:3071}} -based off-tank option, but the point is that she should have to give up at least some tankiness for damage, and viceversa.
Nea104 (EUW)
: Tank builds died years ago, at least when the "new runes" appeared.
It was before that actually. It was the 7.6 tank update that gutted all of their items, removed their best anti-burst MR item and gave it to mages who thence forth never built it ( {{item:3102}} ), and made four tanks unbalancable between normal and pro play ({{champion:113}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:57}} ) ~~Masteries renamed~~ Runes reforged was just the final nail in the coffin, adding +5 damage to every single spell, hitting tanks' access to early resistances, better scaling resistances, and health while adding not just 8 base AD accross the board "to compensate the missing runes" but then had the audacity to also give 350 gold of AD on top of that from set bonuses, while tanks are still missing around 17 armor and 24 scaling MR even after the stat shard additions in season 9.
5050BS (NA)
: So Riot Deleted the post about needing more ways to knock Yummi off her target.
She doesn't necessarily need to be knocked off her anchor, but there are ways to address the complete non-interactivity of her design. Have her passive incentivize interacting directly with the enemy or objectives Passive cooldown: 20-8s -> 20s Passive: cooldown reduced by 1s for every auto attack Yuumi lands on a proccable target Passive: now procs on large and epic monsters ------- Changing the base and ratio of the passive so her normally heavy risk full AP build has a reward that actually involves some risk Passive shield: 50-300 on a per-level basis until level 18 -> 50 +10 per level (220 at level 18) Passive shield AP ratio: 30% -> 40% ------- Big change for her anchor mechanic: W: Yuumi takes 30% of the damage and healing from E that her anchor receives while attached The 30% is just a rough idea, could be more or less depending on how it plays out. -------- With her being more vulnerable by taking a portion of her anchor's damage, her healing can be brought up to par with other enchanters. E Minimum heal: 30/40/50/60/70 +10% AP -> 35/50/65/80/95 +15% AP (And evening out the missing health scaling) E base increased healing rate: 0-130 % by 80% missing health -> 0-150% by 80% missing health E AP scaling increased healing rate: 0-300% by 80% missing health -> 0-150% by 80% missing health Even with the AP compensation, this might leave her weak, but any time this sort of things happens for problematic champions ({{champion:142}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:84}} ) it usually ends up much healthier for them in the long run. Okay Akali is still problematic with a 1 second cooldown Q and a billion damage on an easy to proc passive, but less so than she has been.
Thilmer (EUW)
: Oh, yeah, the good 'ol CertainlyT designs that are imposible to balance... I'm not even a little surprised. {{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
And people give him a break because {{champion:19}} isn't backbreakingly oppressive. When that design was held back tremendously by others on the team and still managed to sneak in those extra fun 0-counterplay CertainlyT mechanics like unstoppability on a dash-and-blink-following 100% heal ability.
Ahris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1u8e6qU,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T10:18:46.548+0000) > > not really > qiyana yes because her stun is bullshit > > pantheon never sees a thread getting done on the boards People tend to ignore guy champs becoming broken.
> [{quoted}](name=Ahris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N1u8e6qU,comment-id=0011000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-11T15:48:53.150+0000) > > People tend to ignore guy champs becoming broken. {{champion:13}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:81}} I guarantee you all of these have had multiple threads over the years about both pro and normal play.
: Ap Bruiser Itemization
Odd that you list assassins alongside Sylas. There are other actual AP bruisers that fit the bill more. {{champion:68}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:82}} Something in common among these champions is that they have relatively poor AP ratios compared to their base damage. {{champion:63}} is the poster-child of bad AP ratios, needing a whopping 850 AP to match the base damage of his spells. Hence he builds the items you brought up, magic pen and additional non AP damage amp. That said, Rumble and co aren't in much better shape. The steampunk yordle needs around 600 AP to match his spell rotation, but he doesn't get the mana benefits of an item like {{item:3027}} or {{item:3001}}, so his scaling is further hindered by poor itemization more so than just about any other AP. {{champion:27}} is in a similar camp, where all the proxy farm in the world doesn't amount to much since he can't spend his gold in an efficient way due to the bulk of his damage coming from his non-scaling %health toss and getting spell effect procs on his poison. The ratio to his base poison is actually incredible, surpassing the damage with a mere 150 AP, but it amounts to only 40% AP per second . Then there's {{champion:31}} who is some kind of Juggernaut warden battlemage hybrid with none of the tools in his kit to make sufficient AP investments work over just building stacking defenses. {{champion:82}} is not the kind of champion I want to see scaling any harder than he does for his early lane bully power. Other than that, there just aren't many AP bruisers in the game as a whole. There are a plethera of AP tanks, but any time they end up viable it's because of building as not tanks at all with full AP spell rotations. The best middle ground case study comes from {{champion:3}} who does build a mix of tanky and AP items, but has been a balancing nightmare in his own right since his relaunch. A part of the issue is there is currently no "default" AP/health mid tier item. For AD champions, {{item:3052}} and {{item:3044}} serve as building blocks for any future bruiser items the team might make, but for AP, that role is split among multiple different items. {{item:3916}} {{item:3136}} are both mid-tier items with very specific purposes which hinders their application for different final items. {{item:3027}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3116}} all need to be built in full before they get a usable mix of the stats. The final items don't even offer a particularly large amount of health anyway, especially compared to the AD equivalents, and further incentivize damage instead -- {{item:3022}} 700 HP and 30 AD, {{item:3116}} 300 HP and 90 AP; It's pretty clear that mallet is intended for AD melee champions to take an extra beating and stick close to a target over a fight, while the AP version seems intended for {{champion:163}} to burst people down with a full Q series. {{item:3071}} vs {{item:3165}} tells a similar story, with Cleaver shutting down tanks while adding health for their own tankiness, and Morello bursting down squishies in 0.3 seconds instead of 0.4.
Rioter Comments
: There was, and there still is, actually. Riot's refusal to remove allied Devour and balance him around top lane.
His most recent gutting was specifically to make him weaker in top lane because passive stacking on abilities let him permanently outtrade everything but ranged tops. Say his ally devour is removed entirely. What could possibly be done to then make him viable, and not oppressive in top?
: {{champion:39}} is usually my go-to for sitting under tower however she isnt really a tank... id say {{champion:14}} since you will infinitely scale from killing minions, {{champion:75}} also. {{champion:14}} also has a chance to get free kills from being dived due to his passive you can even build your own {{item:3230}} if you really want to.
{{champion:14}} suffers from "dies to a single {{champion:91}} Q+ignite" disease in my experience. His low base health and lower base resistances don't make for very reliable safety under tower.
: Mundo
> [{quoted}](name=First Twilight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzcLQW54,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-05T20:21:54.978+0000) > > Mundo Any advice to get around him falling off and not having cc or engage for team fights later? I like tanky characters but a big part of that is their contribution to fights. I'm looking for someone who can survive lane phase and then help out later, and Mundo's lack of a dash or crowd control make that harder to do.
Rioter Comments
Juice (EUNE)
: Poppy is oppressive as hell. A tank should not be 1 shotting your backline with a combo, or have a 2 second cooldown nuke.
Nor should a tank be being melted because {{champion:266}} sneezed on them once. And that whole "1-shotting your backline" is a.) not true, even a full rotation will do at most 60% without drastically compromising her tanking ability (Her AD ratios are only off bonus AD, so tank items need to be left off entirely to utilize them), and b.) requires being more out off position than against a {{champion:122}} pull, except Darius can actually tank damage and pick off your entire team, seen as Poppy has just as much range on her tackle and requires a wall to even get a full combo.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Sea otters are so cute, though!
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aWVEZF0c,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-18T03:44:41.219+0000) > > Sea otters are so cute, though! But until Riot becomes otter-proof, it would be nice if champion designs built around buffing team mates would be able to actively take part in the buffing process.
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