: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EEYuvIWH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-18T06:54:44.137+0000) > > No. Old Aatrox was a balance nightmare. > > We have a version of the old Aatrox already. It's simply that a _balanced_ version of that kit _belongs_ in the jungle. You cannot make a version of that kit that's not either underpowered or overpowered and still have it be a top laner. The iteration right before his rework was pretty balanced. Both players basically had to play around bloodwell, and the one that did it better, basically won. And while he had an amazing early and mid game, he did fall off lategame, as he normally wouldn't be able to dps down a front line fast enough, or get to the back line and survive long enough to kill anyone
> [{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EEYuvIWH,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-07-19T13:25:40.232+0000) > > The iteration right before his rework was pretty balanced. Both players basically had to play around bloodwell, and the one that did it better, basically won. He was actually bonkers the patch before he was reworked. He was way too strong because of Rageblade and Conqueror working so well on him. He was balanced before Rageblade was changed however and it was more of the item being OP rather than him being OP. Although you might just be talking post minirework Aatrox and not Rageblade Aatrox.
: Void Staff is the only source of %mpen, while there are 3 options for %armorpen(even if 2 of them don't stack with each other) Hourglass is OP in certain conditions, and a suicide button in others, while Maw is more consistent. AD also have Mercurial and Wit's End as anti-magic items. Overall I think they are balanced between each other I personally think Hourglass active should be removed/reworked(maybe something like "takes 50% less damage, deals 50% less damage, moves at 100 ms for 2.5 sec" would be more fair active), and Hexdrinker is too viable as first item on AD champions that are not ADCs.
{{item:3231}} is a trash item that needs buffs, its only saving grace is that QSS builds into it. Hexdrinker is quite strong but it's like QSS, the item it builds into is fairly mediocre overall and is only bought when there's nothing else to buy. I also made the comparison between Maw and Hourglass because those items are the most similar in stats, CDR, resistances, and Damage with a defense focused active. Last Whisper items have a small advantage over Void Staff and that's the item, Last Whisper. You get %Penetration before you complete either a Lord Dominik's Regards or a Mortal Reminder. Mortal Reminder vs Void Staff; Mortal Reminder has a healing debuff and that's where the advantages end. Void Staff is 150 gold cheaper, gives 15% more penetration, and gives 25 more damage. I have already compared Lord Dominik's Regards and Void Staff. SO while Void Staff is the only %mpen source in the game, AD champions have 3 %pen items but two of them don't stack and the other one isn't even normally bought with a Last Whisper item. Black Cleaver needs to be stacked also, 6 separate attacks total without any DOT effects in order to achieve 24% penetration. So in order to beat Void Staff in %penetration you have to spend 4450 gold or be Darius.
: Tanks and bruisers need a nerf. If you want to be hard to kill because you are building tanky then fine, but your damage should be reduced significantly for being harder to kill as a balance. The simple fact that if I build health and resistances makes the opposing adcs and mages do abysmal damage to me while I am still hurting them pretty hard because base damage on abilities hurt those with base resistances, it makes it unfair. Squishies can build offensive but takes a while before taking down a tank, while a tank is hard to kill but still dishing out a good amount of damage to squishies such as adcs and mages, then after me the tank dies my other teammates just finish off the enemy adc who is half health or lower from getting beaten by me the bruiser/tank. You have to be joking if you think garen, irelia, darius do no damage to adcs and mages while building tanky. Just having a black cleaver as your only offensive item gives you more than enough damage to hurt squishies but also gives you some health that scales with your tankiness.
Bruisers don't need nerfs whatsoever. Bruisers just need more items because right now there are like 3 bruiser items that are actually good or half decent. Almost every Bruiser build is just {{item:3078}} {{item:3053}} or {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} and then they maybe a {{item:3161}} or a {{item:3813}}. Then they just build tank items because there are no other Bruiser items in the game aside from {{item:3748}} which is an awful item. Bruisers right now don't have a complete build and they aren't even that strong. Bruisers just need more items so they don't fall back on buying 1 to 3 tank items in order to finish their builds. I do agree that tanks and some of their items need significant nerfs in general and then Conqueror could have the true damage removed or something. I never even brought up Irelia, Darius, or Garen and none of them are tanks by the way. Darius and Garen are Juggernauts while Irelia is a fighter, and yes they do indeed do damage. Irelia also doesn't even typically buy a Black Cleaver, she goes for a Tri Force first.
: alot of ap items are op, historically ap scales better on most ability than ad does, alot of ap items are cheap af, and have insane passives, zhonyas is ok, but void needs to be like 30-35% ap items are babied, for instance, tiamat went from 1200 to 1375, but like you look at lost chaper, its 1300, gives u 40 ap and mana, and heals mana on lvl up, with cdr built in, while tiamat just lets you push, and do a lil extra damage
> [{quoted}](name=TheBrothersGrymm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ak2x6Ukl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-19T09:34:32.889+0000) > > alot of ap items are op, historically ap scales better on most ability than ad does, alot of ap items are cheap af, and have insane passives, zhonyas is ok, but void needs to be like 30-35% > > ap items are babied, for instance, tiamat went from 1200 to 1375, but like you look at lost chaper, its 1300, gives u 40 ap and mana, and heals mana on lvl up, with cdr built in, while tiamat just lets you push, and do a lil extra damage The Tiamat nerf was supposedly justified because junglers used it too much or something. I don't remember the excuse all that well for why it was nerfed. But it should have just dealt less damage to neutral monsters or something.
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: > [{quoted}](name=Praexis,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EEYuvIWH,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T17:58:56.241+0000) > > Alright, old Aatrox is as much Xin Zhao in practice as Kai'Sa is Vayne. Yeah they might seem fairly similar on paper but you play them differently in game. No, you're completely wrong. I SHOWED you, and you're still LYING. The similarities are far, far closer than any other two champions in the game. Trying to say some bullshit like "it's as close as Riven to Aatrox" just shows you just _want_ him to be unfair for top instead of understanding that that kit was not fair for a solo lane.
"just shows you just _want_ him to be unfair for top instead of understanding that that kit was not fair for a solo lane." But he wasn't unfair? Like I point out how he had counter play and ways to play around him and yet you persist with the notion that I wanted old Aatrox to be OP? I played against Aatrox before and during his OP stage and I never once felt like I couldn't do anything about it and was like, "Oh no he picked Aatrox now I can't play the game." If you refuse to use or even acknowledge old Aatrox's counter play then you will lose. If you don't dodge his Qs, or take advantage of him and punish him when he's trying to stack passive or using blood thrist, or respect his all in potential at level 6, or buy an executioners calling or bramblevest then yeah you will lose lane for not playing against him properly. He wasn't overpowered until Rageblade, which again was more about the item being strong rather than him.
: my favortie part was when they reworked aatrox he was highest pick and near top in win rate, LOL, he was busted but he was fun, he could be beaten but new aatrox is more of a balence nightmare, what he been changed like 7 times allready
> [{quoted}](name=TheBrothersGrymm,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EEYuvIWH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-18T09:27:38.573+0000) > > my favortie part was when they reworked aatrox he was highest pick and near top in win rate, LOL, he was busted but he was fun, he could be beaten but new aatrox is more of a balence nightmare, what he been changed like 7 times allready Haha Yeah. New Aatrox suffers from having all of his balance budget spent on Q. Aatrox has one ability and that's Q, his other buttons are there to assist Q. W makes no sense in lore and only exists to be a pull to set up 3rd Q. Passive cd goes down really fast by hitting Q so again it revolves around Q. His E exists so he can hit Q, aside from that it can get him over a couple walls. R now just gives movement speed which again, helps him set up Q and also grants more AD and healing which again makes Q more powerful.
: Well, not gonna thank you for not knowing how to press enter/return. And "knowing" when to switch between thirst and price wasn't the issue. Because when it was powerful enough for that to make a difference, he was broken in anyone's hands. The sustain it provided when it wasn't overpowered was outmatched by any other fighter, be it by better damage to win the fights earlier or better defense overall like Jax. I was hoping you'd notice what I was getting at. Xin Zhao _is_ what an updated Aatrox kit would have looked like. Anything short of that, and it would've been too similar to matter, or too different to avoid the same complaint. And I'm not just saying that because of surface level similarities. Every single ability that was similar was also close in damage, range, and cooldown. Like I said, it's simply that the 3-hit sustain isn't fair for a laner to have. It's much easier to balance if it's for a jungler. If you want an in-depth comparison of the two champions, instead of typing it again and again, I wrote it out here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/PsNsWrkE-heres-a-radical-suggestion-why-not-swap-the-entire-kits-of-xin-zhao-and-aatrox (You can ignore the parts about swapping them, but read what's under "The Similarities...")
Alright, old Aatrox is as much Xin Zhao in practice as Kai'Sa is Vayne. Yeah they might seem fairly similar on paper but you play them differently in game. Comparing Xin to Aatrox is almost like comparing Riven to New Aatrox, yes they're similar on paper but while in game they play totally differently. So the first comparison you make between Aatrox and Xin is that they both have attack speed steroids on their kit, while true the way you achieve the steroids is different. Xin just presses his point click E bam he gets a free attack speed steroid and a surefire way to get onto his target. Aatrox works differently, way differently. Aatrox has to stack up his Blood Well in lane in order to earn his attack speed steroid. Aatrox had to use Blood Price on minions in order to efficiently stack his passive enough along with using E, which damages himself , to poke and try to gain an additional stack. Both players in lane can play around the Blood Well, the enemy knowing that 3 stacks is the optimal all in time for Aatrox is crucial to beating him. So in short Xin presses a button to get an attack speed boost and Aatrox has to manage his passive stacks which the enemy can play around. One of the weaker comparisons in your Xin Vs Old Aatrox post is the knock up. Wow so they both have knock ups, okay? Xin's single target knock up is just on a 3 hit passive after hitting Q. Aatrox knock up was on Q also but it was a skill shot that was pretty important for Aatrox to hit. Their knock ups are achieved in two totally different ways and aren't similar. So 3 hit passive heal/damage. Xin has it on his passive, Aatrox had it on W. Xin deals bonus damage and heals while Aatrox does either or, and not both at once. Aatrox either sacrifices damage for sustain and can't stack blood well efficiently or he sacrifices health for bonus damage and the ability to stack blood well efficiently. Aatrox stance dancing is what made him unique and the lane sustain wasn't that amazing. Say you trade with Aatrox and get him to half health, Aatrox now has to stop stacking his passive and walk up to minions and hit them 3 times to actually get a heal, and his early game attack speed wasn't very good without passive going. You could easily punish Aatrox if he tried to go for a blood thirst proc on a minion. AOE damaging dash, yeah sure they both have dashes that deal AOE damage that is true. But once again Aatrox Q is a skill shot that was important to him executing his combo and whether it hit or missed was crucial. The same doesn't go for Xin Zhao, since his E is just a point click ability that pretty much guarantees that you get all your abilities off. Aatrox not having a surefire way to get onto his target added to the risk reward playstyle, if you miss Q you're out of position and most likely can't persist onto your target, if you hit it than you are rewarded with a knock up that grants enough time to E then R and try to burst down the enemy. Xin just clicks on the opponent. Yeah they do both have piercing AOE slows. Aatrox E was always the most odd ability to me on his kit and it should have slowed the further it traveled but Aatrox E came first so if anything Xin W is just a better Aatrox E. Aatrox E granted him a blood well stack and a decent slow that didn't last very long. Aatrox's kit on paper does seem similar but I've played both a good amount and they don't function the same. Comparing Aatrox to Xin is like Kai'Sa to Vayne or Riven to Modern Aatrox, sure they might seem very similar on paper but when you play them they aren't. There's very little skill expression in Xin Zhao's kit and there was almost no way to mess up. Aatrox on the other hand had plenty of counter play in how you could play around the blood well and how you could punish him whenever he walked up to minions to use W. Aatrox wasn't guaranteed a way to kill or heavily damage his opponent like Xin Zhao is. Aatrox not having a surefire point click dash that gave him a blood well stack is why his level 2 dive cheese had counter play, because he could mess up. So no, Xin isn't a "better" Aatrox, they weren't the same. They shared a couple similar abilities but they did not play the same. So yeah when you suggest updating Aatrox's kit to be just like Xin Zhao's kit rather than keeping what made Aatrox unique, like Blood Well and W toggle, then guess what? They tend to be a tad bit similar.
: > [{quoted}](name=Praexis,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EEYuvIWH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T07:03:10.850+0000) > > In what way was old Aatrox a balance nightmare? He was actually pretty balanced after the mini rework and was playable. He wasn't OP at all until {{item:3124}} was changed which also made champions like {{champion:11}} and {{champion:145}} way stronger, not just Aatrox. It's not that he was overpowered all the time. It's that he _had to be_ underpowered most of the time. Because as we saw with that change and with the introduction of Conqueror, giving him even a little bit of strength meant he dove into being overpowered. In most cases, when a champion's kit is too unbalanced to give buffs to, they leave that champion underpowered for patches or seasons at a time until they think of and have the time to implement changes. Such is the case with the old Aatrox. **** Let's talk about what could have been fixed about Aatrox while keeping the same general theme of his old kit: Passive: Having a revive on a sustain diver doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Either they're supposed to have the sustain not to need one, or the fact they have it means they can't have that sustain. Which became an issue when he did have the sustain and _also_ the revive. * So best case scenario, they swap his W's damage _and_ heal onto his passive. And shove more of the attack speed onto his other abilities. Q: Unlike most AA fighters, his leap was a ground target AoE instead of targeted. So it had to have the drawbacks of the initial lift animation and shorter range. It allowed him to run away over walls and knock up multiple enemies if they were basically on top of each other... but also came with the drawback that it was weak enough and slow enough for him to need to run instead of turning the fight around like others in his class could. * The best way to fix this, and be more in line with his diver style, would've been to make it a targeted single-target dash. Even better if it didn't stop the flow of his auto-attacks. W: This was the main issue with his kit. The fact it was a toggle meant each individual version had to be strong, but in doing so either one or the other would be too strong. So they opted to leave the whole thing weak for most of his existence. * As I said before, the way to fix this would've been to make them happen on the same attack, and move it to his passive. Then they wouldn't have to worry about either being too strong and could instead balance them together. E: First, the AP scaling had no business being on it ever since Trinity had its slight AP removed. But more importantly, it was just a really slow ability that, like the Q, cut into the flow of his autos. It wasn't really one of his issues, but overall it just wasn't that good of an ability. * Fixing up the travel time and letting it be included as a hit for the 3-hit passive would fix the few problems it had. R: Unlike most other champions with AS steroids, it was very strange to have his tied to an ultimate's cooldown. And it also had the detriment of cutting into his auto attack flow. * Putting the AS on a basic ability would've solved the problem, and they could then have focused more it being a range and defensive buff. **** I wanna hear your thoughts on this before I continue/change what I'm going to say next.
As I said, Aatrox was in a good state right up until the {{item:3124}} changes. The mini rework solved a fair amount of his problems like having a skillful way to get your attack speed steroid through the passive changes. While I do sort of agree that the revive was weird and I don't think it should have worked with Spirit Visage at all it wasn't super broken and was easily played around. The attack speed on a basic ability you mention is on his passive already btw. The thing is, is that when his passive popped and he got the GA, one it was on a fairly long cooldown, two once it popped he couldn't move during the revive unlike launch reworked Aatrox. Him not being able to move at all granted time to escape or set up a way to kill him when he got back up. While it could be annoying to be dove level 2 by Aatrox only for him to revive and get out, there was counter play to that cheese strategy which mainly revolved around his Q. Correct me if I'm wrong but they way you describe the way you would fix Q sounds pretty much like {{champion:24}} Q. Also in most cases Aatrox Q was used to engage or escape, the main combo being Q + E + W (blood price stance) + R so the Q would be the engage and wouldn't be typically used in the middle of him auto attacking. The Q being a skill shot added to the sort of risk reward playstyle that he had in where It was slow enough that you could dodge it fairly easily but if the Aatrox landed the Q then it would be a pretty powerful ability that would set him up to either kill or get a good trade off. Also Q was very unlikely to ever hit more than 1 person, the knockup hitbox was fairly small and there would be little reason for 2 people to be clumped that close in a team fight or in a 2v1 gank. The W toggle was the main thing that made Aatrox unique, knowing when to switch between Blood Thirst and Blood Price Is what made or broke an Aatrox player. I do think that Blood Price should still have costed health after the mini rework so Blood Thirst heal scaling off of missing HP could really kick in and be useful so you could swap between the two knowing when the damage was worth hurting yourself. A good example for when stance dancing mattered was in a 2v1 gank scenario in where a good Aatrox player who understands their damage could try to pull off a full combo and burst one of the players if they manage to hit their Q, again another reason that Q should remain a skill shot so it doesn't 100% guarantee his full combo. So in this scenario Aatrox would most likely start in Blood Price since you want your passive up not only for the GA but for the Attack speed Steroid. As the fight continued Aatrox could swap back and forth between Blood Thirst and Blood Price, staying alive and managing to drain tank enough so that he could set up a few good hits with Blood Price. Staying in one stance an entire fight isn't what you normally want to do and each toggle having their strengths and weaknesses is the main skill in the kit. His E didn't scale with AP, at least not after the mini rework. This ability should not have cost health and have had its damage lowered but Blood Price W _should_ have cost health. But yeah I totally agree his E should have either have been faster or it should have slowed more the further it traveled. His Ultimate's cast time was fairly fast and it did a lot more than give an attack speed steroid. It extended his Auto range by 225 units, did magic damage, and granted a blood well stack per enemy hit with it. The ultimate's attack speed steroid was a 40% increase rank 1, or as much as modern Irelia passive gives her level 1 with max stacks. It was a good steroid but by itself it was eh, his passive gave him 30% attack speed so when combined with passive then it really made a difference and was good. But again it doesn't really disrupt his attack flow, Aatrox typically used his R at the start of a fight right after hitting Q and a point blank E for burst early game. His ultimate scaling with AP was odd but the base damage was good early game sitting at 200 magic damage rank 1 so it was fine, also if it scaled with AD then the damage would have been way too huge if it kept the same base damage and would probably be way overloaded. Those are my thoughts.
: No. Old Aatrox was a balance nightmare. We have a version of the old Aatrox already. It's simply that a _balanced_ version of that kit _belongs_ in the jungle. You cannot make a version of that kit that's not either underpowered or overpowered and still have it be a top laner.
In what way was old Aatrox a balance nightmare? He was actually pretty balanced after the mini rework and was playable. He wasn't OP at all until {{item:3124}} was changed which also made champions like {{champion:11}} and {{champion:145}} way stronger, not just Aatrox.
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ZXL (EUNE)
: i cant put shen with zed???
Shen and Zed are both Ninjas. The Ninja buff only works if you have 1 OR 4 Ninjas with no in between. So if you have a Zed with no other Ninja on the board then he will get the buff, but if you add in Shen then you will lose the Ninja bonus and neither will have it. The four Ninjas are Kennan, Akali, Shen, and Zed btw.
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: Because people rather buy new skins, so the focus goes to that over fixing things that don't impact the game (and even thing that do). Also I am sure they have to pay a lot to have the voice actor give a line...and they are spending a lot of money on 1 line. So they be losing money over gaining over something.
Well the thing is some of his taunts sound way more like jokes than taunts. Like take for example this line, "I'm like a demon but more edgy right? Get it? Cause I'm a sword?" That line sounds way more like a joke rather than a taunt, well to me at least.
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Praexis

Level 177 (NA)
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