: Will we have a female Darkin one day? With AA in name and cup size?
Riot'll just take Kai'sa and put a red filter over her.
: *Preface that I wasn't on the pod who developed her, but I have a bit of context on the changes.* **Give us white hair, many of the other Blood Moon skins have it.** This was something that was trialed during development; it didn't work out. Blood Moon Evelynn shows a lot more skin than other Blood Moon skins do, making a good portion of her model a light color. Adding white hair to this would have caused her model to be a blur when in motion and it'd be hard to pick apart exactly what you were looking it. From game height, we aim for larger shapes (also why models aren't insanely detailed when in game versus the splash - the textures are 512 x 512). **The skin looks like Lunar Wraith, not Blood Moon.** That's feedback the team agreed with. There was *a lot of blue*, a color not generally associated with Blood Moon. The team took that feedback to heart and removed some of the blue, making her horns resemble the blue/gold gradient found on Blood Moon Else. The hair was also changed from a hotter pink to something more red, again, to align better with Blood Moon. The hotter pink was definitely trailing into Lunar Wraith Caitlyn's territory. **Is it due to the ego of the skin artist? ** Fair question, but no. The concept artist was working on paint overs/going through feedback loops for a good portion of yesterday afternoon. He made 4-5 paint overs of different hair and horn colors to see what could be pushed to make it feel Blood Moon. This was all based on feedback that Riot KiWiKiD had delivered to the team, coming from the boards, Reddit, YouTube, etc. Once the team agreed on the changes, both the character artist and splash artist spent the rest of the afternoon applying the changes and then Riot KiWiKiD testing them. **Delay it.** We have a release cadence and making larger scope changes on something we've planned x things for means taking away time from another skin's development - it's a slippery slope. It's why we can't 'just add sleeves' to something, for example. It's not simply adding sleeves, but also changing the rig entirely, changing all of her animations so the sleeves don't clip, and adjusting the splash to accommodate the in-game visual changes. Changing an animation kit can take several days, especially on newer characters, like Eve. Tied into all of this is testing, which means testing the skin again in its entirety, which is another large task that takes several (+) days. **Scrap it.** I think this has become a go-to for when someone either doesn't like something, and it's the easiest way for them to communicate it versus constructive feedback .We'd done it once with Sewn Chaos and because it'd been done once, it's a matter of why not do it again? To be honest, we struggled with the Sewn Chaos skins and the confidence we had with them. They were cute, but didn't hit our quality bar, or the fantasy that they should have, and it was something we should have ice boxed way sooner than PBE. **TL;DR**: We hear you! I know it's hard to believe sometimes when high scope changes are requested and they aren't applied. If you aren't sure why something is/isn't done, please ask (preferable on PBE 'cause the SME for the skin usually writes the post!) We have craft/design reasoning behind the choices we make as a team.
Sewn Chaos looked fine and even better than some subsequent skins that were released. I think the people behind that decision might have conflated 'niche appeal' with 'substandard quality'
: Akali's VGU and Progression
Why does Riot care about being faithful to Akali but didn't care about being faithful to Swain?
: What is that feeling called when you are happy and sad at the same time? Thats how I always feel when I see white boards again. We have lost so much along the way, and what have we gained in return?
: @Reav3 will Fiora ever get an updated voice?
: aatrox was never broken or unfair
: Found an interesting story
Yes, you are missing something, quite a lot actually. Riot missed quite a bit with their apology too. All of you should try to actually read the criticism before inventing a strawman of what you think the criticism could be.
: I mean sure Riot has to figure out lore niches and the like, but I heavily doubt they will change direction going forward.
Scathlocke has literally said that him becoming lore lead represents a change in direction and he has lamented that things like the Varus rewrite began before he was put in charge.
GreenLore (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cXx0nG5A,comment-id=001d00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-16T16:21:15.188+0000) > > The entire point of the story was to set up these two lovers being trapped in the same body with an evil force, struggling against something powerful and dangerous with the Power of Love. > The thing is that those 2 lovers are not the champion. Varus is. So for me it is likely that Varus will remain in control for most of the part. Anyway it remains to be seen into which direction riot would want to take Varus.
It has been explicitly stated that the new "Varus" is an entity comprised of the 3 beings known as Kai, Val, and the darkin known as Varus.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Overall i personally just don't think that the struggle for control will be the pivotal part for the character,as that would be too similar to Kayn,which is also the reason why such a character would likely not have this kind of struggle as part of his kit in a major way. In his short story the 2 exerted no direct control over him,which to me makes it clear,that Varus the darkin is the champ and outside of very few moments,he is in full control. Sure he didn't kill the ones that were running away,but that was because he knew it would stir them up too much.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cXx0nG5A,comment-id=001d0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T22:30:39.674+0000) > > Overall i personally just don't think that the struggle for control will be the pivotal part for the character The entire point of the story was to set up these two lovers being trapped in the same body with an evil force, struggling against something powerful and dangerous with the Power of Love. > as that would be too similar to Kayn It being kinda similar to Kayn (and still not really very similar at all) is not at all a good reason to jettison what made the story popular to begin with.
GreenLore (EUW)
: I'm not sure if the whole struggle among personalities is really supposed to be a lasting thing though. The lore makes it clear that Varus is for the most part the dominant one,with only the others being able to take control over the body for a short time in extreme situations(like when he went to the village of Vals family),otherwise it doesn't look like they are able to take control,they are merely able to influence Varus on a personal level(so they can talk him into not doing something horrible). And while you are right that his kit fits someone who tries to protect something,we don't know much about the history of Varus before his imprisonment and old Varus was someone hunting down noxians to murder them anyway,so honestly it wasn't that fitting for old Varus eitherway.
The Darkin is explicitly described as a sadist who loves tormenting his victims. The conflict between personalities is an explicit part of the character and obviously one of the most compelling aspects of the story. If there is a pivot at some point in the new Varus's story then that will make him a less interesting character and thus not the version of the character that should appear in-game. The designers' choice to have the playable version of Kayn take place at THE pivotal moment of his life when he either succeeds or fails against Rhaast was an inspired decision that 100% makes Kayn's design iconic from now until the end of time.
GreenLore (EUW)
: How does it not fit his gameplay kit anymore? His Q and E are bow related abilities(which obviously still fit) and the rest can be chalked up to be darkin magic. Also I am pretty sure that the lore of Varus was changed because his bow is too fitting for a non-darkin champion(being a living weapon) and they likely didn't want to waste a potential darkin champ as it is known that only 5 remain.
Mainly because new-Varus has multiple personalities fighting for control and his 'active' personality changes from time to time, which is ripe as a concept that could be reflected in the gameplay in interesting ways. This also echoes disappointment from players for Kindred and Quinn/Valor and their kits' inability to make you feel like you're controlling a team of characters, feeling like a pattern in Riot's poor gameplay design for adcs. But also because Varus's gameplay kit is that of a mostly stationary siege archer. Varus's kit having decent waveclear, high range, low mobility, an ult that is very good at clogging up an enemy team, and some AoE damage gives Varus the strengths needed to be good at turtling under towers or sieging enemy towers when his team is fortifying his position. Whether intentional or not, this meshes very well with lore for a man trained explicitly to defend a specific building from any number of invaders. New Varus is 2 parts hunter and 1 part sadist, all parts trained to track and follow targets when Varus has no vision abilities or mobility (and anti-mobility on his Q), all parts trained only in how to take down single targets when Varus is known for his AoE and waveclear, and one part who delights in the pained expressions on his prey while Varus tends to pop targets very impersonally at maximum range from a full screen away. If lore like this had been written from scratch with no champion already tied to it, then the champion designed around it would play nothing at all like varus: probably be medium-low range for an adc, mostly single-target/assassination focused with some kind of alternate firing stance triggered by a condition to represent the Darkin taking control temporarily. I picture something like Kalista with the buddy mechanics replaced with a rage mode: mobility, a vision tool (change the functionality and flavor of spirits to something more like Warwick's blood scent), and building up many hits on a single target to prepare for a finishing blow when you're done playing your cat and mouse game.
: No, the concept of Karma isn’t being misrepresented
You're right, it's more accurate to simply say that the new Karma is in no way true to the character of Karma as she has ever existed in League of Legends, nor does it make sense for any playable character in an action-focused game such as League of Legends, making it yet another example of the lore team closing their eyes and ears to the context of what they're supposed to be working on and instead writing a story that will create long-term problems for the game.
: OK, even though I personally don't like the Karma update... You got a response from Riot saying they'll improve it. That's more than Varus mains got. Also, you're basically just asking them to retcon the new lore and replace it with the old one (which is fine, I preferred the old one too), rather than give them suggestions on how to take the current story arc into a different and potentially interesting direction. Also, you sound like you're speaking for all Karma mains. Which, to be honest, I'm sure there are at least a few that like the lore change.
Actually, Varus got a lot of red responses, it just turned out that they were mostly stalling and lies.
: They said they are going to improve it not scrap the new bio and build a new one.
Which is unfortunate because nothing about people's complaints can be addressed without explicit changes to what we've already seen.
: In response to Scathlocke's Karma lore update
Not just how they've treated Karma, but how they've treated pretty much everything in the last 5 months. Only thing they did well was the Annie lore.
GreenLore (EUW)
: The problem is that new Varus does have quite a lot of fans as well,so changing him back would end up disappointing one faction regardless. Also they are saying they aren't really retconning her again,but improving her,which sounds to me like her new lore will pretty much stay the same,but instead expand on her character and explain some things better. So if they'd give Varus the same treatment,they would likely go into more detail for Val,Kai and Varus,but the basic story would remain the same.
Except new Varus's lore also fits his gameplay kit worse than the old, and probably always will because changing an iconic kit to match new lore is against Riot's manifesto. They should revert Varus's lore and then design a new champion to fit the new lore, then re-release that lore with names changed to fit the new champion.
: So I'll ask a quick question. I think I understand your point. What then, if you're not basing off of an archetypal survivor, would visually indicate that someone has survived something extraordinary?
A suit that seems more extraordinary and costly to wear. Battle damage or repaired battle damage. A VO with more references to self-sufficiency rather than what seem to be lines meant to inspire teammates. Those may actually sound very archetypal, but to get the concept across in a non-typical way it would have to not be something seen before and thus be more difficult to think up.
: I thought it was a given Karma would receive a Vgu, just not for a long time. Edit: and for what it’s worth I enjoy the new lore
If/when she does get one, it should capture what players like about her in game and ramp it up in a way that is healthier for the game in the long term and possibly more interesting to her players; her lore and visuals should follow that kit to create a cohesive character. Pacifism is completely contrary to both kits Karma has had and everything people found appealing about those kits.
: Karma as a pacifist.
Destroy a decent kit many players are used to in order to make it mesh with poorly-written, poorly-received lore? Not only does that sound stupid, it is literally against Riot's manifesto.
: I'm sorry. I had a typo. Although you gave me a good list I'll restate the question properly and even add your new list to the subject of the question and flesh out the question a little more. How would that make her a better character? What about having scars makes her a better character? What about having different body morphology would make her a better character? Why would having a bulkier more clearly separate entity of a suit would make her character better? What part of the VO is bad for her character? Why would more muscle mass improve her character? What about muting her secondary sex characteristics would be improving her character? I mean maybe these things would make her fall more in line with the classic survivor archetype, but Riot intentionally doesn't just follow classical archetypes. So if the point isn't to just be an archetype then what makes these various 'improvements' actual improvements outside of your own taste? Is her visual design not cohesive with her lore? Would these 'improvements' make her look more lore appropriate?
Because currently nothing about her sells 'survivor' at all. I'm not talking about the classic archetype or some kind of stereotype, I'm talking about any kind of survivor at all. Her appearance+VO don't seem to tie into that concept AT ALL.
: But how would they make her a better character? Would it be more coheisive with her lore? If so what would indicate that?
body morphology (esp. asymmetrical), making her suit bulkier and more clearly a separate entity instead of merely spandex, a new VO job, more muscle mass, muted secondary sexual characteristics (i.e. TnA)...
: Should Kai'sa have scars?
Scars would be an option to make her a better character, there are other options too.
Nylisa (EUW)
: I havent played Varus in a long time, is his VO outdated considering he got a lore update recently?
Yes, as well as his idle animation where he looks at a locket.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EoBfnLQj,comment-id=00020003000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T17:04:04.304+0000) > > Idealized in the sense of a fantasy woman who can have the idealized fantasy woman proportions (within reason. She's not MF or Eve or anything), while still being able to be badass and strong. I appreciate your effort,but you aren't going to get anywhere with these people. They're trying to push their agenda (one which will never happen mind you) for a character that is literally pixels on a screen. Jinx has a two piece top and no one's complaining. But the second a pixelated character has a better body then them it's a problem.
Jinx oozed sexuality in her music video and visually draws exactly from a fashion trend in the 90's, heroin chic, and it all perfectly fits her character. Jinx is a great character because of her look and her clothing and her sexuality and that is why people don't bitch about her. I don't think you could have picked a better example to show that the arguments against Kai'sa are based on real criticisms of the fundamentally poor decisions made for Kai'sa's design rather than the bizarre strawman you have of the critics.
: Idealized in the sense of a fantasy woman who can have the idealized fantasy woman proportions (within reason. She's not MF or Eve or anything), while still being able to be badass and strong.
So a better word would probably be "compromise" It was a compromise between a woman who looks like she is used to taking care of herself and a sexy beautiful supermodel with giant tiddies who also just does everything without weaknesses or character flaws because we don't actually want her to appear to be a real person. Because fantasy in fiction is not about delivering new and unseen stories and imagery to consumers to fuel the imagination, it is about taking the same things that people in general seemed to like before and packaging more of those attributes together into a giant, generic mess.
: There is a picture I posted just above, of a woman crossfitter. Kai'Sa is a slightly more idealized version of that, which they can do in a fantasy settings,
"Idealized" in that she has more fatty tissue on her chest, more fatty tissue on her rear, less muscle definition on her arms and abdomen, a wasp waist, and less prominent shoulders? That doesn't sound like an idealized fighter.
: So a couple things I've been able to come up with this whole weekend that this has been a thing: /1. The "makeup argument" doesn't really hold water when basically all of Riot's female champions have makeup on. Even Illaoi, the champion of body diversity, has perfect eyebrows, mascara, and eyeliner (not to mention *another* wild dweller Nidalee. Hell, even *Annie* has eye makeup). Why? Because it tends to make them look nice. If you have a problem with that, then that's something to bring up with Riot's design structure as a whole, **not** something particular to Kai'Sa. /2. Yes, you could definitely describe Kai'Sa's proportions as generous. **BUT**, to hold to the entirely opposite opinion that because she was living in the wild means she should be sticks 'n bones thin is entirely bogus. Like, seriously, go and look up just about any crossfit woman. Do they look sickly or starving? It's important to remember, Kai'Sa wasn't just surviving in the caves, she was *thriving*. She was a huntress, and a damn good one. She was more than capable of taking down void creatures many times her size, and certainly anything else that wandered down there from the surface. Now, could she be more (for lack of a better term) "flat chested"? Yes, of course. But, being as this is a fantasy game, I'm not going to fault the devs for wanting to make her more fantastical. So in sum: she could definitely be *less*.....voluptuous? But to argue that she shouldn't be at all is a farce. /3. As recently (re)pointed out by Placentas on [this](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/ILYtmfwG-when-kaisa-was-living-in-the-void) thread, Kai'Sa was never actually living in the Void. She travels through it occasionally (which is her ult in game), but during that time, her suit seals up, protecting her from any energies that could effect her. As for why she was not zombie or monsterfied in the first place, that is explained in her story. She was incredibly lucky that a) the first void creature she ran into was relatively small, b) she was able to kill it, and c) that the void creature bonded with her skin forming a suit, rather than dissolving her or whatever. MacGuffiny? Sure. But not unexplained. Riot made sure to write themselves in out with the Void lore update: > Though it has bred many of them, no two horrors of the Void are exactly the same. Their otherworldly forms are as varied as they are terrifying. Basically what the amounts to is that the Void can do anything Riot wants it to do Again, a bit MacGuffiny (am I using that word right)? Again, sure, but you can't say Riot didn't at least properly set it up for themselves. So that's basically all my thoughts on this matter. If not obvious, I don't agree with the opinion that Kai'Sa is "oversexualized", or even "sexualized", for the reasons above.
> [{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=EoBfnLQj,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-10T02:13:08.793+0000) > > Like, seriously, go and look up just about any crossfit woman. Do they look sickly or starving? They do not look like Kai'sa. Female Crossfit competitors and MMA fighters look buff.
: Why I think Riot's Apology was warranted
The apology was warranted, but I don't think they did a good job with it. They seemed to focus completely on whether or not it was vulgar and didn't really seem to understand that people were complaining because Kai'sa very clearly seemed to have sexiness at the expense of other interesting elements that she was ripe for. Subsequently, all further conversation on the subject seems to be about an old and settled argument instead of the actual problems with Kai'sa (i.e. the most upvoted thread right now is the lazy, outdated satire that features Aurelion Sol).
Ifneth (NA)
: Thanks For Admitting Your Mistake
They didn't really understand the source of the criticism and shifted the conversation to just whether or not sexuality is OK when we already know they're fine with it and are going to do it to some degree until the end of time. Pretty bad response on their part and makes it look like they don't really pay attention or read criticism past the most surface level.
MilanaMill (EUNE)
: How to fix kaisa's V neck.
You are blatantly ignoring the content of the complaints if you think Kai'sa can be salvaged without the bare minimum of a full texture redesign.
GothicV2 (NA)
: I'm out of the loop, what's the issue with Kai'sa?
It's because when people hear "Woman trapped in the void for years before returning" their imaginations went wild with all the crazy corruption effects that would happen to her, how much she would be human and how much would be unrecognizable space alien, how little sanity she'd have left. Riot delivered a hot chick in spandex. They subverted our expectations in a way that delivered a character barely a fraction as interesting as what we were imagining. This is so bad that it doesn't only make Kai'sa uninteresting, but takes all lore related to the Void and makes it slightly less interesting.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Well I did not say that Kayn and Rhaast cover the theme of corruption very well. Just that it is a big part of their character and that was also riots arguement when they did Kai'sa. Corruption is shown in Kayns design and the end result of the corruption is even a game mechanic(honestly I think this would have been perfect for old Varus). Also given Kai'Sas release,she was in preproduction around the time when Kayn went into full production and entered full production sometime after Kayns release. So its possible that when they decided on the core themes for Kai'sa they didn't know how Kayn would end up executing the corruption theme,just that it was part of his character.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=BqI2nMJq,comment-id=000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-09T10:21:23.543+0000) > > So its possible that when they decided on the core themes for Kai'sa they didn't know how Kayn would end up executing the corruption theme,just that it was part of his character. They still should have never made decisions about Kai'sa based on how they felt they were doing with Kayn. Corruption is an essential element of any Runeterran being in the void and Riot has now created long-term problems for both Kai'sa's character and all lore related to the Void because they were worried about short-term trends.
GreenLore (EUW)
: But kayns body is already corrupted in baseform,hence why he has one darkin arm already. Sure it is not his mind that got corrupted,but his body is already in the process of getting changed. Corruption doesn't always have to affect the mind,it can also be a purely physical thing.
You really should demand a little more quality out of your video games, Riot has definitely shown in the past that they can do strong theming throughout the character and have it pay off in joy from the fanbase (i.e. Jhin) Some small graphical details don't make for a complete theme, Kayn still doesn't feel or act like a character going through corruption, just a set-up for a momentous pivot towards a to-be-determined path.
GreenLore (EUW)
: > Kayn is basically a human with a Darkin Scythe that does fuck all to him. Uhm then what about the ingame mechanic,where he becomes fully corrupted and turns into a darkin?
Corruption as a theme is about a gradual process and a focus on the interim of that process where elements of the old character are combining with whatever the corrupting force is so you can try to discern what elements are human, what are foreign, and what are too close to tell. Skipping to the end and removing all traces of humanity is more like just killing off and replacing a character. Kayn doesn't really have those corruption elements in his base form and just moves to a pivotal climax where his life or death is decided in one moment.
GreenLore (EUW)
: The way I see it,they are ok with finishing stories(as TF and Graves did solve their conflict in burning tides,even if it led into a new character arc),they just don't want a champ to start with a finished story like Trundle and don't want champs to be taken out of the lore too soon(would suck if a champ was introduced in the lore and then dies without having many lore pieces). The real big problem is that there were a lot of changes to the writers at riot going on and a lot of changes and experimental stuff within the lore. It was only when the Bilgewater event arrived that the narrative teams finally settled on a solid direction for how to handle the lore as a whole(giving us a champion bio+a color story) and also managed to deliver lore in the way they intended to do(giving us short bios in the client and the full stuff on the website). Now that they solved this problem,they face anohter one:They have too many champions that need to be adjusted to the new formula,since pretty much every champ who was released before 2014 will seemingly get a new bio+color story,while some of the champs in 2014/2015 at least can use their current bio as a color story. And despite focusing mostly on updating outdated champions they still have ~50 champions left who have neither gotten a new bio,nor a new color story(+dozens who have only gotten one of the two). For comparison they only managed to give 22 champions a new bio+color story last year(not counting new champs),meaning at this pace,they won't even be able to give us the basic amount of lore for all champions before 2020. Once they are done with updating all the lores,then they can truly focus on continuing stories,but even then the chance for any champion to receive any lore at all,would likely be less than 20% every year.
Trundle didn't start with a finished story, they "finished" it through the now-defunct Journal of Justice.
: Frozen Time : Riot's Failure to Create a Narrative
They should just revert him. In a lot of players' minds he's still "Traditional" Trundle because that character still has more content about him. Also, let's be honest: Ice Trundle's lore is actually crap. He's a boring character, he has no positive attributes you would find an attachment to, no real motivation to make you understand him, and there's nothing relatable about him. His tribe felt like a bad rip-off of the ice trolls that people had seen in WoW while Traditional's tribe felt like an interesting exploration of the D&D troll. Ice Trundle felt uninspired when it came out and it didn't somehow get better with age and stagnation.
: The Kai'Sa main is here, you all can calm down. Here is my opinion. Yes, they could have chose a different angle, but it's fine they didn't. Yes, they didn't have to define your neck shape and body shape so hard, but it's fine they didn't. Do you want to know why? Because, if you have an issue with it, you can simply not play her. That's the glory of this game, isn't it? You get to CHOOSE your champion. *Glares at Howling Abyss* As for the skin tight suit, someone already said it, but it's literally a living creature adapting to her body shape. Do you want the living creature to be baggy, or reduce her breast size? Anyway, gl hf. She's not sexualized unless you make her it yourself.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaí Suh Dude,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=02EbPbAf,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-04-06T16:02:31.376+0000) > > Do you want to know why? Because, if you have an issue with it, you can simply not play her. Other people have to see her in-game, her character is now a part of the larger universe, and those experiences have all been damaged by Riot's lack of quality control.
: They’ve said a dozen times why Kai’Sa isn’t corrupted. It’s a survival story. The way that they’re selling the void now, corruption = insanity.
It's cosmic horror, the whole point is that it's NOT survivable. If literally one person makes it out unscathed then the entire concept falls apart. Riot's writers are getting worse and worse every day.
: .... It’s a skin tight living suit. That’s not boob plate, that’s just it conforming to her body shape.
It is a costume designed to show off her curves first and make sense second. If they wanted to communicate that the suit is actually a symbiotic organism then it should take up space, have a discernible form, have visual elements that instantly communicate to the viewer that it is a living, breathing organism separate from Kai'sa herself. Riot was not interested in creating an interesting character, they wanted to sell tiddies to gamers.
: Kai'sa's neckline
Kai'sa isn't hypersexualized but she is oversexualized. Kai'sa was made to look like a typical comic book supermodel with skin-tight clothing that shows off all her curves with no real corruption present from the Void. This is not appropriate for a Void-related champion because nothing about it sells the concept of cosmic horror, it just comes off as a hot space chick.
: "We’d recently made a corruption-themed champion with Kayn."
I like that the quote implies Riot is willing to make decisions with long-term detriments to the champion for short-term gains. As the void is based on Lovecraftian concepts, corruption is a core theme and avoiding it must be 100% impossible to maintain that horrific element of the unknowable. Riot compromised that to create a long-lasting problem for not just Kai'sa but the lore of everything related to the void because they wanted to maximize sales in the short term by making sure players didn't feel bored from this thematic.
Larriet (NA)
: Can't speak for the others, but I absolutely love {{champion:61}} 's updated lore. A welcome change in my book; just wish her in-game VO matched it a bit better now.
It's a change to the core of her character, it meshes poorly with her visuals, subsequent stories about her do not incorporate the change and actually make more sense under the old lore, and it doesn't actually add any value. It is the perfect example of change for the sake of change which is a horrific sin in writing for an established canon.
: It is true that Orianna needs a VU but her robotic and unnatural movements are supposed to be like that..She is barely human
Her robotic movements appear unnatural and inhuman, but they also appear synchronized and choreographed. The Orianna of the new lore was built piecemeal over the course of years using technology designed for prosthetics. That kind of character should appear as a patchwork being, like Urgot but metal instead of flesh, her movements would lose unnecessary forms of coordination that humans still tend to have, not gain perfect synchronicity to form a perfect ballerina pirouette. However, the old Orianna was originally conceived as a piece of clockwork, an engineered machine of massive complexity that requires every piece to perfectly fit with every other to apply exact pressure with exact timings. The new lore comes off as written by someone blind to what Orianna was and arrogant about their own writing abilities.
: Orianna's visuals and lore
They should revert her lore. There was no reason to change it, it added nothing to her character, it clashes thematically with her appearance, and subsequent stories written about her still make more sense under the old lore than the new. The writers literally changed it just to change things. They spent time and effort making her a worse character in a way that added no other form of value.
: INB4 "Ugh, so you're going to retcon her again!!" :-P No, we just know that sometimes what we're aiming for doesn't come across clearly to players. I'm always very happy to review a champion, once their lore has been published, and see if there are ways to genuinely improve on it.
We know you're not going to retcon her again. Riot isn't interested in fixing mistakes like Karma, Swain, Mundo, Orianna, Fiora, Trundle...
: > The point isn’t to tear up older stories that form their own cherished part of League’s history I don't think Riot has ever abandoned this philosophy since they started retconning the lore in 2014. Patheon, Varus and Karma's retcons are not indicative of them abandoning their philosophy; they're a result of poor execution. Riot has continued to stay true to their philosophy when retconning characters. The issue with the poorly received retcons is not that Riot disregarded what's important to a character. The issue is that Riot misinterpreted what was MOST important to a character. Scathlocke isn't in charge of changing Riot's philosophy, rather, he's responsible for finding ways to fulfill their philosophy more consistently.
With Varus they admitted that they changed important parts of a good story. With Swain they literally admitted that Swain was not an important inspiration for Swain. Orianna was a minor change to the story in that it ONLY changed who Orianna is at her CORE. Mundo was completely changed, literally nothing about his old and new stories are similar. It's simply not possible for this to still be a part of their philosophy, they aren't even trying.
: Karma and Possession
Yup, they got their story they want to write and they don't care what's standing in the way. They don't even care if these aspects don't show through in the champion's gameplay or appearance at all. The writers have never been more disconnected from the fans or the game itself than they have been in recent months.
Ifneth (NA)
: Taliyah is a Stoneweaver, not a Stone Mage
: I think that their intention remains the same. Scathlocke’s post asking Nautilus mains what’s important demonstrates this. Having said that, I think what Riot is failing to discern is the difference between who a character IS and what their themes are. For example, Varus’ themes have remained mostly the same but that doesn’t mean he’s the same person. A character’s themes are part of what makes them them, but not the whole picture. Their history, life events, personality etc. are also part of who they are. For instance, Goku, Naruto, Ichigo and many other shonen protagonists are very similar thematically. However, their individual histories, personalities and actions are what make them, although archetypal, different characters. Despite keeping his themes intact, Varus’ retcon changed many of the other aspects of who he is.
Scathlocke is actually a recent addition to the lore team and has talked as if he wants to bring about a new era in the game's lore where it will start to actually respect the characters that current players already like. When confronted with the conflict between that idea and things like the Varus update, all he can say is "well that started before I worked here so I couldn't do anything about it." Meaning that for the past couple years Riot simply didn't give a shit despite repeatedly telling us that they did and now we're having to deal with all these mistakes coming at us week after week that Riot will refuse to fix. Living in a new age of lore that is handled properly would be nice but too much has already been destroyed for me to care.
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Quepha

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