: i think that this topic has been discussed to death..no reason to resurface it !
Riot makes a big mistake Fans get mad Riot apologizes, say they'll do better next time Topic gets "discussed to death" People stop talking about it Riot forgets their promise Loop DyQuill literally told us that we should always be rehashing the same conversations about what we like in the lore so Riot doesn't forget what we like about characters and end up changing it by mistake.
: I would argue that the core theme of loss is there. However, sharing a core theme isn't exactly all that important. The Count of Monte Cristo, the Iliad, and Kill Bill all share the core theme of revenge. Doesn't mean the stories are particularly similar. Which is why it gets amusing when someone makes the claim the story is virtually the same as the old one because they share themes. I’m curious who they think they’re convincing.
Loss means it's gone, it's not coming back, there's no chance to save it, Game Over. That doesn't apply to Val and Kai, their story is literally the polar opposite of that.
: I don’t get this. These stories are getting changed for a reason, and I’d much rather Riot follow their own prerogative than bend over backwards to jerk off the “big fans” Both Varus and Ziggs now feel more consistent with the new world Riot is building.
It's literally not lore if Riot rewrites it every time they think of something "better". No one pays attention to lore unless they're a big fan so that should be their primary audience for the lore.
: "Beware a man with nothing to lose."
Riot literally has no idea what "loss" means. They continue to act as if the new story has the exact same themes as the old. Every time someone asks why the themes weren't preserved they just say that they are and since they consider the interpretation to be subjective they don't have to respond to any rebuttals.
: Riot Ruined Ziggs - Hero to Villain
Riot has made it clear that they don't care about the old lore. Their current writers get total creative freedom to erase anything that existed before they arrived.
: Candidates for: Star Guardian
Lux could use another one.
: So, you're saying more into a blind pick, and basing voting off a name with some bullet points around what the inspiration would be? RE: the 'boob window', it was talked about a bit in one of the articles - *There was lots of debate over Illaoi's outfit. In the end, we looked for a solution that balanced the concept that players voted on and what might make more sense for Illaoi as a character.*
But big cleavage actually does make more sense for Illaoi as a character. She's forward, brash, and open about her sex life. It was clearly more about balancing sex appeal vs. moral standards. Arguments about Illaoi's character were very weak and ill-informed.
: Then why don't you just quit?
Engagement with the lore does seem to have been on a steady decline over the last few years. Constant disloyal rewrites and retcons do that as they kick out dedicated fans a few at a time.
: I think this mentality is exactly why Varus fans are upset. I haven't met a single fan of the old lore that is happy that it was replaced with this lore. And all the people that like the new lore never cared about Varus' old lore. So they literally alienated and upset all of Varus' old fans just to get a new group of people to like new character (characters?) for totally different reasons.
According to DyQuill, Riot looks at lore changes as Pain vs. Gain, i.e. as long as more people like the change than dislike it, then it was a positive change. So if there are 138 champions in the game and they change Varus to appeal more to the fans of the other 137, then even if you completely devastate 100% of the fans of Varus it's really easy to still end up with a net positive if the other 99.28% of League players like the change just a little bit more. It doesn't matter if you have a niche interest in one character because Riot wants everything to have broad, bland appeal.
Corran (NA)
: Is Riot going to be more forthcoming with future lore reworks so we as a community can prevent what happened with Varus from happening again?
No. They'll say they will and then they won't. Again.
: LoL Reddit doesn't reward circlejerking in the same way these forums do. Shit crybaby threads get removed/downvoted, and for good reason: They contribute nothing
No site on the internet rewards circlejerking more than Reddit...
: In which case we get nothing at all.
I think deleting the old Varus was a travesty but your suggestion would just make it worse.
: There is a way to have both old Varus and new Varus
Feels like a crappy half-measure in a place where it's completely undeserved while also tarnishing the quality of the new story with a hasty, ill-fitting rewrite. Sounds like the worst of both worlds.
Ifneth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pcX0wKmd,comment-id=00190010000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-15T18:08:26.316+0000) > > 1. Is Katarina a teenager? Isn't she like 20+ like Garen? > 2. True, but when I think of MG anime, I always/only think of Sailor Moon, which is pretty tame. > > (For the other hand section) > Fanservice isn't a big deal for me. Could be male privilege, but they've been working in more male candy as well. Kat’s a teenager as far as I know, but if not, than that’s a relief. As for why I dislike fanservice, it’s not just that I feel like it objectifies women, but also that it breaks the fantasy of a lot of champions. Let’s say I’m playing Caitlyn. She’s supposed to be a clever sleuth and sharp shot. She might wear a nice jacket, kneepad trousers, ankle boots, small backpack, and a pouched belt. She has to look professional but also have the gear to handle patrols and urban combat. But her base skin, as Riot has admitted, neither looks professional nor helps her do her job. So, when I see her, I always have to wonder why and tell myself, “Oh, right, fanservice”. And that breaks the fantasy for me.
> [{quoted}](name=Ifneth,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pcX0wKmd,comment-id=001900100000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-15T21:49:21.728+0000) > > Kat’s a teenager as far as I know, but if not, than that’s a relief. As for why I dislike fanservice, it’s not just that I feel like it objectifies women, but also that it breaks the fantasy of a lot of champions. > > Let’s say I’m playing Caitlyn. She’s supposed to be a clever sleuth and sharp shot. She might wear a nice jacket, kneepad trousers, ankle boots, small backpack, and a pouched belt. She has to look professional but also have the gear to handle patrols and urban combat. But her base skin, as Riot has admitted, neither looks professional nor helps her do her job. So, when I see her, I always have to wonder why and tell myself, “Oh, right, fanservice”. And that breaks the fantasy for me. I think it was also that Piltover didn't have a clear art direction besides "steampunk" so they were probably just working off of pictures of steampunk cosplay.
Stexe (NA)
: Why not try to be more transparent and say "hey everyone, we're looking at improving Varus's backstory and wanted to open lines of communication to try to get a feel from the community." Seems like an easy way to get feedback and start a discussion before hand. People knew Varus would be converted into a Darkin, but the rest completely blindsided people.
They're undoubtedly going to say "Yeah that was our bad we thought a surprise would be more fun, in the future we'll instead try to be more open with you all about things like this," for like the fifth time in a row. That should have been their policy on story retcons ever since Trundle's disastrous rewrite over 4 years ago. Instead Varus is going to be just another casualty before Riot's lore team started to give half a shit about their fans.
: Why? I’ll tell you all why That frickin SONG. Keep the lore idgaf it’s all bout that chorus “AS WE FAAAAAAALL” damn that gives me chills In all sincerity, it was worth wrecking the character. I play that shit on the way to class. Best song ever
There was literally no reason for that lore to not be attached to a new champion instead of erasing an old one. If it had gone on a new champion it could have also been tied to a kit with gameplay that also sold the concept, instead Varus is now the third adc who represents multiple entities in the lore without expressing any of that feeling in his kit.
: > [{quoted}](name=IDarkIFire,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011000d,timestamp=2018-01-14T22:07:56.016+0000) > You know, as a supporter of the new lore, Varus is the only champion I frown upon when it comes to the update. Before, I was like, "meh." Now I'm more, "meh" because it feels..."flatter". I agree with just about everything Dyquill tried to explain, and I fully understand his reasoning. Hell, the stronger you feel about something, the less satisfied you are with any answer that isn't a full on admission to failure or whatever you're accusing them of. Unless Riot says,"yes, we did a horrible crime, forgive us," most people who are complaining won't be satisfied with any answer, even if it's to a question they demand an answer for that have been answered over and over. With that being said, the story, once again falls flat. I can understand the romantic bond. I can understand wishing to tell a story with a twist. I can understand trying to make it provocative and polarizing. Hell, I understand that gay or straight, it can still work out or whatnot. My main gripe of it is that neither Val nor Kai had enough individual characterization before the assimilation for us to differentiate between the two. Not only that, but as you said, the amount of "loss" in this variation doesn't feel as strong because they are still able to communicate with each other. At the very least, make it so one of them shows stronger signs of corruption. Maybe that'll show up later, but they both have their minds despite not being able to fully restrain Varus. The full set of tragedy won't come about until one of them grows...silent. _____ Also, also, being proactive. He's no saying things like, "guess what we're doing next, so we can fix it." He's referring to moments like when we spoke about "who would be better in a fight, Jax or Fiora?" Said it so much, Jax crossed Fiora over a bridge. We need women who properly show muscle. Why is Sejuani in a bikini? Talk about it to the point that when Sej finally got her splash updates, whoa and behold. Her traditional splash now has muscle definition. The best example of being pro-active I can think of is us talking about Kayle and Morgana right now. Kayle and Morgana are on the VGU list, but hey haven't been definitively added as THIS IS HAPPENING! We had several threads of people discussing Kayle and Morgana's place in Runeterra. There's been enough discussion where Riot could rely on some of what has been said before finalizing something. If there's a character you feel passionate about still (other than the currently deceased), mention them now. Even if it's something small like, "I hope Jayce finds a new friend," or something bigger like, "What if, when Noxus invades Demacia, the first person to run into Sion is not Galio but Fiora?" It's about just voicing your desire for the future before it occurs not just predict what will happen unless it's actual theory-crafting.
> [{quoted}](name=Valaran Nara,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011000d0000,timestamp=2018-01-15T02:43:34.701+0000) > > Unless Riot says,"yes, we did a horrible crime, forgive us," Is there a crime worse than taking something that fans like and simply deleting it for no reason? To declare that what you loved never existed, then take something completely different and tell you it's the same while the rough edges that keep it from correctly fitting in will sit there taunting you until the end of time. When it comes to Story I really can't think of anything worse Riot can possibly do, it just comes down to whether or not they do it to a character you personally enjoy.
: LoL needs a female Martial Artist
DyQuill (NA)
: Hey all, back again. This is gonna be my last post in this thread, but we’re still working on more Narrative communication to come. I tried to answer questions as best I can without launching into essays for each, combining similar questions where possible but omitting loaded or entirely subjective ones (e.g. “Why the deception when the PBE story leaked” and “Do you plan to address the lore update that was uncalled for and extremely poor in it's creation”). I also didn’t pin it because this is really just following thru on a promise I made to this small group of dedicated Varus mains on Boards, and not meant to be a big announcement. That being said, feel free to link this comment if you see others bring it up who haven’t read it. Thanks for sticking with me on this wild ride - hope we deliver something that resonates with you more in the next one. **WHY DO THIS AT ALL? WHY VARUS SPECIFICALLY?** Super simply put, our philosophy is to keep evolving League - not just the game, but the story and world. In most respects (based on gameplay data + affinity and sentiment surveys), Varus was middling (check out 3m20s mark of the /dev video: https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=3m20s). If we did our job right, players will now feel a lot more strongly about Varus either way - love or hate - and far less will find him just “ok.” I’ll note that it’s totally conceivable to have done this story with a completely new champ; however, our plan is generally to update older champs like Varus regardless, and we thought this story could be a good fit for him. **HOW DID YOU DECIDE? WHAT IS THE PROCESS LIKE?** This is a good example of the kind of question i think is better answered holistically, about our process for all champion updates of this nature. But I’ll try to be more specific. Some of you have asked for specific arguments for and against updating Varus, which I’m not gonna replicate, because we have meetings, emails, messages, random conversations over lunch, survey data, etc. that all contribute to the “argument.” There was never a “final debate” where one side “won” and the other “lost;” in the end, the team (specifically the writing and creative leads) made a decision on what they thought - given everything i’ve just listed above - was the one to do. That being said - there was a ton of debate internally, among the core team but also Rioters in general. Virtually all the arguments that have come up on Boards and beyond came up during that process. (This next bit is more on the holistic side, and really oversimplified, but for what it’s worth…) we generally view champion updates through the lens of “pain versus gain: how many narrative and character possibilities are we gaining at the cost of losing some of the things players already love? We’re still collecting feedback and sentiment, but so far we think we achieved more gain than pain when it comes to Varus. **WHAT DID THE TEAM CONSIDER "CORE" TO VARUS' CHARACTER? **“The core of the character, to us, was the tragic loss of a loved one, the desperation that leads to a "deal with the devil," and obviously the corruption stemming from a weapon.” First answered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7gn1yo/varus_as_we_fall_official_music_video_league_of/dql4545/ **WHY REMOVE THE FATHER ASPECT? THAT FELT CORE TO ME.** Originally answered here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/z1dTsaQ6-so-lore-update-means-throwing-away-champions?comment=000000000002001c0000000100000000000000010001 But yeah, we agree this is fair feedback. Ultimately, we felt that romantic love would be a stronger motivator and bond for this particular story - see the next answer. **DID YOU TALK TO VARUS PLAYERS ABOUT THIS?** We have ongoing surveys that ask about favorite champions, as well as “Player Labs” where we invite mains of champs (among many other participants) to give us feedback on work in progress. For Varus specifically, we looked at existing data for sentiment on his backstory and affinity for his character. Every champion has diehard mains, either of that champ’s gameplay or story or both. We’re fully aware that changing champs always runs the risk of leaving those mains feeling betrayed, and so we apply the “pain versus gain” framework I mentioned above in addition to trying to capture as much of their “core” character aspects as possible - but while still trying to push the bar creatively. There’s a ton (and I mean a ton) of work behind the scenes that goes along with making decisions like this. This article on naming a champ (https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/12/naming-new-champions/) gives a good peek behind the scenes. You may not see the surveys, or the conversations, or the “arguments,” but trust me, they happen. **WHY MAKE VAL AND KAI GAY? WAS THIS A PR STUNT OR MOTIVATED BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE STORY ITSELF?** Val and Kai and their relationship was 100% a product of creative story decisions, and nothing more. The /dev video goes into some more detail at 5m11s mark (https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=5m11s), but essentially we knew that for this story, they would need to have a super strong bond that would both bring them to desperation and then allow them to overcome the darkin presence; they would need to be partners on the battlefield and in life. While that suggested to us romantic love, rather than familial, the particular genders wouldn’t change anything about their heartlight relationship. So from there, the first draft of the script was written, and featured two warriors named Val and Kai. Simple as that. **WHY DOES YOUR COMMUNICATION SUCK? WHAT WILL YOU DO NEXT TIME THERE'S BACKLASH LIKE THIS?**We’d like to think we suck a lot less now, but there’s always room for improvement. You can expect more Nexus articles and /dev diary videos (which have some of the best reach versus cost-to-make ratios), and the usual smattering of comments on forums like reddit and Boards. If you have other ideas of things you’d like to see, like a podcast or more regular blog, let us know so we can point to your comment and say “LET US GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT.” As for handling backlash - we’ll keep listening and communicating, and take action based on those two-way conversations. But it always starts with the conversations. **HOW DO WE COMMUNICATE OUR PLEASURE/DISPLEASURE WITH YOUR DECISIONS?** Honestly, the way you’re doing it now is fine. I think what this question really is getting at is, how do we have more of an impact on the things Riot does? Which is a fair question as well. My best piece of advice is to be proactive, saying what you’d like to see from X champ long before we’ve locked in the story. Feedback after the fact is still helpful and super encouraged, but we’ve likely made our final decision already, and it's more likely to inform our next decision than the current one - whereas proactive feedback about what you'd like to see can be taken into account during the actual development cycle. Obviously there are cases where we revert those changes, but it takes a ton of strong, accurate, and consistently negative feedback for that to happen. **DO YOU INTEND TO CHANGE/REVERT THE LORE? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE?** I know this isn't the answer this group wants, but no, we don’t. There’s no magic formula that has to happen or threshold that has to be reached for decisions to be changed, but as mentioned above, we’d have to see some major negative backlash before totally reverting a decision that’s been in motion for some time. **AT THE END OF THE DAY - DO YOU GET WHY WE'RE STILL FRUSTRATED AND ASKING YOU ALL THESE QUESTIONS?** Yeah, we totally get it. Wouldn’t still be talking if we didn’t. **WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU SAY?** I can’t answer this for you, but I hope as we continue to communicate about our decisions and update League, you’ll see what we’re saying is truthful and that we’re not here to bullshit you. Even when we disagree with one another, we’ll talk it out and keep it real.
> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-01-13T02:23:59.031+0000) > > My best piece of advice is to be proactive, saying what you’d like to see from X champ long before we’ve locked in the story. Are you legitimately trying to troll us with this comment? It honestly makes me angry to read this.
: I respect this
How? DyQuill's advice to us is to randomly guess which lores are going to be rewritten with no notification from Riot and start talking about them over a year before the rewrite happens (that's how long ago they started working on this Varus lore rewrite). That's completely unrealistic and he knows it, this is honestly a terrible effort at a response.
DyQuill (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Cosnirak,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-01-13T02:56:34.368+0000) > > This really baffles me. Everything I've ever learned in life and seen others express basically screams at the top of its lungs that this is completely backwards. I sincerely doubt I know a single person who thinks romantic love is stronger than a parent's love for their children and there's not one thing in the story that would make that less true even in the particular situation given. Val and Kai could've been father/son and it would've worked just fine. > > I can think of other reasons to base it on romantic love that are fine. Overall my only real problem with the story is that I felt it could've easily been even better (and I mean in other ways, not this one). And yet I still can't remotely see this as the reason to make it romantic and the idea that anyone would use that as justification blows my mind. Am I horribly misunderstanding the statement? Ah totally see what you're saying, lemme clarify. When i said "stronger motivator," i meant more like "what kind of motivation is the strongest for this story," not "what's the strongest emotion there is." No doubt that familial love ranks right up there with romantic love (maybe even higher?). But when we thought about what motivation makes sense for a story where the crux is a character making an incredibly desperate, risky, and frankly dumb decision, sacrificing everything in a headstrong, hasty bid to avoid losing the person they can't possibly imagine life without, we felt like romantic love matched the particular brand of desperation we were looking for (not to mention the common idiom of "soulmate" fit perfectly with what we planned for the tripartite darkin). Ultimately it's a creative (and subjective) decision on which works best for the story, and it could have potentially gone either way.
> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2018-01-13T03:29:10.366+0000) > > Ultimately it's a creative (and subjective) decision on which works best for the story, and it could have potentially gone either way. Except one way matches the old story and the other way is something very different which distances the new character from Varus. The lore team chose to distance the new Varus from the old Varus because they don't care about the fans of their established franchise.
DyQuill (NA)
: Hey all, back again. This is gonna be my last post in this thread, but we’re still working on more Narrative communication to come. I tried to answer questions as best I can without launching into essays for each, combining similar questions where possible but omitting loaded or entirely subjective ones (e.g. “Why the deception when the PBE story leaked” and “Do you plan to address the lore update that was uncalled for and extremely poor in it's creation”). I also didn’t pin it because this is really just following thru on a promise I made to this small group of dedicated Varus mains on Boards, and not meant to be a big announcement. That being said, feel free to link this comment if you see others bring it up who haven’t read it. Thanks for sticking with me on this wild ride - hope we deliver something that resonates with you more in the next one. **WHY DO THIS AT ALL? WHY VARUS SPECIFICALLY?** Super simply put, our philosophy is to keep evolving League - not just the game, but the story and world. In most respects (based on gameplay data + affinity and sentiment surveys), Varus was middling (check out 3m20s mark of the /dev video: https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=3m20s). If we did our job right, players will now feel a lot more strongly about Varus either way - love or hate - and far less will find him just “ok.” I’ll note that it’s totally conceivable to have done this story with a completely new champ; however, our plan is generally to update older champs like Varus regardless, and we thought this story could be a good fit for him. **HOW DID YOU DECIDE? WHAT IS THE PROCESS LIKE?** This is a good example of the kind of question i think is better answered holistically, about our process for all champion updates of this nature. But I’ll try to be more specific. Some of you have asked for specific arguments for and against updating Varus, which I’m not gonna replicate, because we have meetings, emails, messages, random conversations over lunch, survey data, etc. that all contribute to the “argument.” There was never a “final debate” where one side “won” and the other “lost;” in the end, the team (specifically the writing and creative leads) made a decision on what they thought - given everything i’ve just listed above - was the one to do. That being said - there was a ton of debate internally, among the core team but also Rioters in general. Virtually all the arguments that have come up on Boards and beyond came up during that process. (This next bit is more on the holistic side, and really oversimplified, but for what it’s worth…) we generally view champion updates through the lens of “pain versus gain: how many narrative and character possibilities are we gaining at the cost of losing some of the things players already love? We’re still collecting feedback and sentiment, but so far we think we achieved more gain than pain when it comes to Varus. **WHAT DID THE TEAM CONSIDER "CORE" TO VARUS' CHARACTER? **“The core of the character, to us, was the tragic loss of a loved one, the desperation that leads to a "deal with the devil," and obviously the corruption stemming from a weapon.” First answered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7gn1yo/varus_as_we_fall_official_music_video_league_of/dql4545/ **WHY REMOVE THE FATHER ASPECT? THAT FELT CORE TO ME.** Originally answered here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/z1dTsaQ6-so-lore-update-means-throwing-away-champions?comment=000000000002001c0000000100000000000000010001 But yeah, we agree this is fair feedback. Ultimately, we felt that romantic love would be a stronger motivator and bond for this particular story - see the next answer. **DID YOU TALK TO VARUS PLAYERS ABOUT THIS?** We have ongoing surveys that ask about favorite champions, as well as “Player Labs” where we invite mains of champs (among many other participants) to give us feedback on work in progress. For Varus specifically, we looked at existing data for sentiment on his backstory and affinity for his character. Every champion has diehard mains, either of that champ’s gameplay or story or both. We’re fully aware that changing champs always runs the risk of leaving those mains feeling betrayed, and so we apply the “pain versus gain” framework I mentioned above in addition to trying to capture as much of their “core” character aspects as possible - but while still trying to push the bar creatively. There’s a ton (and I mean a ton) of work behind the scenes that goes along with making decisions like this. This article on naming a champ (https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/12/naming-new-champions/) gives a good peek behind the scenes. You may not see the surveys, or the conversations, or the “arguments,” but trust me, they happen. **WHY MAKE VAL AND KAI GAY? WAS THIS A PR STUNT OR MOTIVATED BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE STORY ITSELF?** Val and Kai and their relationship was 100% a product of creative story decisions, and nothing more. The /dev video goes into some more detail at 5m11s mark (https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=5m11s), but essentially we knew that for this story, they would need to have a super strong bond that would both bring them to desperation and then allow them to overcome the darkin presence; they would need to be partners on the battlefield and in life. While that suggested to us romantic love, rather than familial, the particular genders wouldn’t change anything about their heartlight relationship. So from there, the first draft of the script was written, and featured two warriors named Val and Kai. Simple as that. **WHY DOES YOUR COMMUNICATION SUCK? WHAT WILL YOU DO NEXT TIME THERE'S BACKLASH LIKE THIS?**We’d like to think we suck a lot less now, but there’s always room for improvement. You can expect more Nexus articles and /dev diary videos (which have some of the best reach versus cost-to-make ratios), and the usual smattering of comments on forums like reddit and Boards. If you have other ideas of things you’d like to see, like a podcast or more regular blog, let us know so we can point to your comment and say “LET US GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT.” As for handling backlash - we’ll keep listening and communicating, and take action based on those two-way conversations. But it always starts with the conversations. **HOW DO WE COMMUNICATE OUR PLEASURE/DISPLEASURE WITH YOUR DECISIONS?** Honestly, the way you’re doing it now is fine. I think what this question really is getting at is, how do we have more of an impact on the things Riot does? Which is a fair question as well. My best piece of advice is to be proactive, saying what you’d like to see from X champ long before we’ve locked in the story. Feedback after the fact is still helpful and super encouraged, but we’ve likely made our final decision already, and it's more likely to inform our next decision than the current one - whereas proactive feedback about what you'd like to see can be taken into account during the actual development cycle. Obviously there are cases where we revert those changes, but it takes a ton of strong, accurate, and consistently negative feedback for that to happen. **DO YOU INTEND TO CHANGE/REVERT THE LORE? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE?** I know this isn't the answer this group wants, but no, we don’t. There’s no magic formula that has to happen or threshold that has to be reached for decisions to be changed, but as mentioned above, we’d have to see some major negative backlash before totally reverting a decision that’s been in motion for some time. **AT THE END OF THE DAY - DO YOU GET WHY WE'RE STILL FRUSTRATED AND ASKING YOU ALL THESE QUESTIONS?** Yeah, we totally get it. Wouldn’t still be talking if we didn’t. **WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU SAY?** I can’t answer this for you, but I hope as we continue to communicate about our decisions and update League, you’ll see what we’re saying is truthful and that we’re not here to bullshit you. Even when we disagree with one another, we’ll talk it out and keep it real.
> [{quoted}](name=DyQuill,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=WJKTWhlI,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-01-13T02:23:59.031+0000) > > “Why the deception when the PBE story leaked” That is a legitimate question. After the initial leak people were complaining that you deleted Varus and replaced him with a new character. Red posts started appearing to reassure players that this would make sense with the full lore drop, but the full lore drop made this new character even less like Varus than what we saw from the initial leak. It was like the Reds were posting either without reading the feedback or just blatantly ignoring it to buy time. If something like this happens in the future and Riot says to wait a few days before giving feedback, I will point to this event as a reason to not listen to that request. > **WHY DO THIS AT ALL? WHY VARUS SPECIFICALLY?** Super simply put, our philosophy is to keep evolving League - not just the game, but the story and world. In most respects (based on gameplay data + affinity and sentiment surveys), Varus was middling (check out 3m20s mark of the /dev video: https://youtu.be/KnI4es0Bv8I?t=3m20s). If we did our job right, players will now feel a lot more strongly about Varus either way - love or hate - and far less will find him just “ok.” And for the people who liked him before and end up hating him now thanks to your intent to make the character more polarizing, it basically feels like being a fan of anything Riot has made earns you massive disrespect from Riot itself. I see the reasoning behind trying to constantly evolve the gameplay and story of the game, but not the BACKstory of characters. > **WHAT DID THE TEAM CONSIDER "CORE" TO VARUS' CHARACTER? **“The core of the character, to us, was the tragic loss of a loved one, the desperation that leads to a "deal with the devil," and obviously the corruption stemming from a weapon.” First answered here: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7gn1yo/varus_as_we_fall_official_music_video_league_of/dql4545/ Val and Kai haven't lost each other and they didn't make a deal of any kind. Those things you claim were recognized as core to the old Varus are completely absent from the new one. > DO YOU INTEND TO CHANGE/REVERT THE LORE? WHAT WOULD IT TAKE? I know this isn't the answer this group wants, but no, we don’t. There’s no magic formula that has to happen or threshold that has to be reached for decisions to be changed, but as mentioned above, we’d have to see some major negative backlash before totally reverting a decision that’s been in motion for some time. Two complaint threads about Varus are on the front page of the "Best" filter for Story, Art, and Sound, putting this topic up there with the Fiora visual update, removing Graves' cigar, and disabling Gangplank for story reasons. There isn't a good way to measure mistakes, but the closest thing we have ties this to be the biggest mistake Riot has ever made related to Story, Art, and/or Sound.
Meddler (NA)
: Wouldn't expect Yi or Trynd in 8.2. Hoping for 8.3, haven't yet identified what we'd be looking to buff for each of them though. In terms of facing juggernauts that's somewhere I'd expect champs like Yi to have some trouble. Mobile champs get a lot more agency over when fights happen and ability to disengage, so juggernauts need to able to just straight up brawl with them well in melee range if that actually happens.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=rBEuvwxg,comment-id=001f0000,timestamp=2018-01-12T16:43:39.941+0000) > > In terms of facing juggernauts that's somewhere I'd expect champs like Yi to have some trouble. Mobile champs get a lot more agency over when fights happen and ability to disengage, so juggernauts need to able to just straight up brawl with them well in melee range if that actually happens. But juggernauts have the durability necessary to let them actually participate in team fights (and sometimes the AoE damage to contribute significant damage in a short period of time) while skirmishers need to almost exclusively split push. How ridiculous is it for a class of champions who can only split push to lose a 1v1 duel when they can get in range and use all their abilities to the fullest power?
Sukishoo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Catastrop,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cEadWxms,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-11T10:30:03.004+0000) > > The biggest flaw with this skin IMO is that they covered up his chest. It's madness I tell you. They said they wanted him to be a "prince going to the ball" and thus he wouldn't be shirtless doing that XD
: Patch 8.1 notes
"keyless honor orbs drop at every checkpoint" every listed checkpoint orb drops key fragments ??????
Altiverse (EUNE)
: Ahri hasn't gotten a skin in 125 days!
Vaermina (NA)
: Ah yes, the obligatory "Wtf why are these champs getting skins and these champs aren't getting skins" posts
At this point, Riot releasing a new Lux skin feels like an actual April Fool's joke.
: Hello! There's a lot to unpack here, but I'll do my best to address the points you've made in this thread. **Why was Lux selected for a Lunar Revel skin this year?** I pinged my product owner for a reply for this one, since he's more deeply involved in the selection discussions than I am myself, and I didn't want to misconstrue anything. *"From early on we decided to do Warwick and Nasus for year of the dog, with the idea of exploring good dog and ‘bad’ dog. As we developed the idea further with them being divine door guardians we coupled it with having a powerful godly princess they would be protecting to balance out the skin offering. Lux was the champion that fit the best for this fantasy and since her last skin was over a year ago we felt ok with adding her to the group for this year, and she is also an extremely popular champion in countries that celebrate Lunar New Year, so we also feel these players will appreciate having her be part of this celebration. Other champions that could have also made sense, that were less fitting on the role anyways, were not available due to having other skins already planned or in other cases having either gameplay or full re-works coming up. "* **What's the deal with the Illaoi skin?** We realized that Illaoi had waited quite some time for a skin, and felt that letting players vote for a thematic would be a great way to involve the community, as opposed to just popping a new skin on PBE. We submitted three concepts that were vastly different from each other to give everyone a variety to choose from. Granted, not everyone's favorite would be selected, and as such, not everyone would be super happy about the result, but imo, having a voice in voting is better than having us say, 'here's an Illaoi skin, kthxbai.' This project also enables us to really show what goes into creating a skin, which may shed some light on why we make choices, why things do and don't work, etc. **Okay, but there are a bunch of champions who are in desperate need of skins.** You're absolutely right. Some champions that you've named had pending reworks in 2017, such as Eve and Urgot, which made them ineligible for new skins. Swain's currently sitting on that waitlist right now. We tried to tackle some of the champion who needed love last year - Viktor, Cassiopeia, Yorick, to name a few. We have a ton planned for 2018, and I can assure you we've considered champions who haven't seen a new skin in a while. **Xayah and Rakan skins, though?** We felt that this was a no brainer for this year's Valentine's Day skins. They're *love birds*. They're an adorable couple in Runeterra, it seemed like a really good fit! This pairing of skins - Sweetheart - was one of the most suggested thematics from players for these two when they first released. **Riot's a business.** Yep, we are, but we truly do strive to be the most player focused games company in the world. I understand that we aren't perfect and that we do fall short at times - who doesn't? I'd highly encourage you (and everyone!) to continuously give us constructive feedback - both positive and negative - tell us why something does or doesn't suck, seriously. It's honestly the best way for us to know what we should keep doing and what we should do better. You aren't going to hurt our feelings, so please, be honest like you have been in this thread.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pcX0wKmd,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-01-09T19:41:43.677+0000) > > Lux was the champion that fit the best for this fantasy Literally any human champion fits such a generic concept, nothing about it is even tied to being a female (but even then there are plenty of female champions more neglected than Lux). Your other justifications feel like actual justifications (albeit weak ones) but this one is obviously a smokescreen. > imo, having a voice in voting is better than having us say, 'here's an Illaoi skin, kthxbai.' As one of the losers (Battlecast was far and away the skin I least wanted) I think it honestly feels worse, like I could have done something if I properly recognized how far behind my favorite option was and instead campaigned more for my second choice. And it looks like you're making a bland skin look even more boring to ensure that it makes a lot of people kind of happy instead of truly exciting a few people. Seeing ANOTHER Lux skin and knowing that, if the champions I liked were as popular as Lux, I'd probably get all 3 skins within 2 years and probably some other holiday skins on top of that is just a cherry on top of the shit-sundae.
VulDread (NA)
: Does volibear even show up anywhere then?
Every champion shows up in at least one role. Zoe was an exception because she had literally no data from before her release (and riot probably fixed that in the code by now so the next champ release shouldn't have that problem)
: So do you have a possible ideas for I skin he could get. I understand the anger, I dont get how lux fits into year of the dog, but neither does Sol. But i also dont get why lux is the breaking point when this has been happening for so long. I feel like this is just a band wagon at this point, like most of the people who are mad, (not saying all) wont buy the skin even if he did get one. I still understand you tho.
> [{quoted}](name=Got Lucians Wife,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=biAZETdE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-09T16:59:22.068+0000) > > So do you have a possible ideas for I skin he could get. I understand the anger, I dont get how lux fits into year of the dog, but neither does Sol. But i also dont get why lux is the breaking point when this has been happening for so long. I feel like this is just a band wagon at this point, like most of the people who are mad, (not saying all) wont buy the skin even if he did get one. I still understand you tho. For a serpentine dragon for an event related to Chinese New Year? http://www.china-cart.com/bookpic/201312/2013123082243.png
: You know, thinking about it...this game would work on consoles, wouldn't it?
I'd rather someone builds a console moba from the ground up with controls more similar to a 360 shooter. I don't see why people would want to adapt mouse controls to a controller.
Tuss (NA)
: Why should I thank a player for making me suffer so they can practice instead?
Because you might actually end up being slightly less bad by the end of the match.
Tuss (NA)
: I'm not saying they're the smartest guys ever, but when they all in on you whenever their abilities are on cooldown every time, few champs can really contend with that.
yes they can. you should thank the player who went jungle so you can learn to play better.
Tuss (NA)
: Can there be some compensation to solo top laners in Co-op VS AI games?
You should be able to 1v2 intermediate bots in Co-op v AI. The're that bad.
Meddler (NA)
: I did, thank you. Hope December treated you well too? GP's on our watch list as potentially too strong, from memory a decent amount of that strength is likely Klepto though. If recall correctly he's performing noticeably better with it than other Keystones, so reducing it's range of effectiveness a bit hopefully puts him in a good spot power wise and opens up his rune choices a bit more (Klepto still a good choice, but not as dominant in many cases).
Are you guys aware of the Raise Morale bug? Purchasing the upgrade resets your ult cooldown, allowing you to ult again or even stack ults from the fountain. It's easily reproducible and reliable.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 5
I hadn't heard about the Rengar Q changes, what's wrong with the current one? I'm aware that Rengar's rework was not considered to be a success but I didn't think anyone thought of his Q as a negative change.
: I got more damage per minute and gold than ALL the top challenger players... So why am I in Bronze 5
Kill counts trend downward as MMR increases. When you watch smurfs grind an account up from low elo while trying to do it as fast as possible, they don't get crazy 20+ kill counts every game. Their kill counts are pretty good (8, 8, 10, 7, 14, etc.) but they keep their deaths extremely low as they tear down objectives without taking unnecessary risks. If you do see a really crazy kda then it's usually a rare game where the rest of the map went extremely badly and they have to singlehandedly stall the game for an extended period of time.
: how about playing Old School LoL before giving an opinion.
I played before /remake was a thing and I can confirm that early disconnects made for garbage games that were nothing but a waste of my time. Even if they reconnect a few minutes later they have already ruined the lane phase, the most important part of the game. However, a lot of the time they just never reconnect and we have to play out a 4v5 from start to finish. A few times I tried as hard as possible, got a big lead, and tried to carry... but the enemy would just stall out and outscale because they have 5 players scaling instead of 4. Eventually you give up trying because it's just not worth the mental exhaustion at the end when you work so hard in an unfair situation and still lose.
: STATISTICAL PROOF that we gain less IP/BE under the new system
"When you ignore the source for 30+% of most players' XP/BE income, then you earn less than before!" No shit.
Rioter Comments
Weedbro (NA)
: if you made yasuo a sexy woman I bet people would like yasuo more
: Who gets the Rift Herald (gold+ advice please)
why were you even fighting over herald? i hate having my trinket slot locked off.
: Just an observation...take it for what you will.
"You didn't HAVE to go to the bottom of the tree" Good joke, 95% of the time that was the optimal choice and the remaining 5% were considered major balance issues (an EXTREMELY UNDERWHELMING final talent/keystone)
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-29T03:38:12.669+0000) > > You're straight-up wrong. Well actually, using the average XP I earned per match (~165 excluding FWOTD), it would take about 17-18 games to level up if I were sitting at my current level of 56. By adding in FWOTD that number would decrease by ~2 games per day then. That is an extremely long amount of time to get majority of your BE. I am not going to continue to argue with you when your responses contain little to no contribution to the original discussion or if you continue to make rude remarks. I am happy to have this discussion and am pleased to see more people view and respond to this thread, but I don't appreciate responses as such, so please, if you don't have anything valuable to say, please keep it to yourself then.
> [{quoted}](name=0racle0912,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=000200010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-29T12:06:08.369+0000) > > it would take about 17-18 games to level up if I were sitting at my current level of 56. By adding in FWOTD that number would decrease by ~2 games per day then. That is an extremely long amount of time to get majority of your BE. But that's actually an incorrect statement. It takes 100's of games to learn how to play this game and 100's more to climb the ranks. If you think 17-18 is a lot then you're in the wrong genre.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=000200010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-28T22:17:10.728+0000) > > A single level in this game, even just before a milestone when it's at its longest, does not take a long time. You are in the wrong genre if you are whining and moaning about a dozen hours of your life. It takes what, 7-10 games to level up? That's a long time to get the major source of BE and will take even longer if you can't use the FWOTD bonus ever day. I don't have an issue with the time needed to get TONS of BE, but the extremely slow flow opposed to the old system isn't good at all.
> [{quoted}](name=0racle0912,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-28T22:39:37.326+0000) > > It takes what, 7-10 games to level up? That's a long time You're straight-up wrong.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-28T06:52:03.968+0000) > > Yes it is, the obvious measure of BE/IP gains is "gains per time spent playing the game," so whether you play daily or weekly, the only thing that matters is how much you play between each first win of the day, and your example was 2-3 games per FWotD, meaning your BE gained per time spent playing went up relative to your IP gained per time spent playing. No, the bottom line is that you gain more XP the more you play, which eventually leads you closer to BE gains - **you need to play a lot to even touch BE**. This contrasts to the old system where you would get a steady flow of BE after each game, not some lump sum after a long XP grind. The consequence faced here is the slow BE flow; this concept is straight forward. It makes no sense for Riot to have this system when players in this case exist, as they might not be able to buy a (6300) champ for weeks / months. For some math, **From my last 10 games** the average XP per match I gained is ~165. This excludes the FWOTD bonus. So given this average, if I played 3 games a day, 3 times a week and used the FWOTD bonus each time assuming I won at least one game a day, I would gain a total of 2685 XP in that week. (165*3*3+(3*400)) = 2685. Sitting at level 55 currently, this is not even enough to level me up. So after one whole week of playing, I will only be getting, at the very most, 150 BE **only from the FWOTD bonus**. That isn't even enough to buy nunu. Compared to the old system, I would be getting the 150IP bonus per day, which is already **triple** what I would be getting now, and that excludes the IP per game. I'm not even going to bother going into the weekly gains with the IP system because I think my point is made already. Adding onto this, the lump sum of BE gained when you **finally** level up is potentially dispersed over a little less than 2 weeks of playing, meaning I would level up ~3 times the entire month. You cannot say I would be getting the same amount of BE in the month compared to the old system, and for all players, the flow of BE is definitely not at the same satisfying / efficient rate as before.
> [{quoted}](name=0racle0912,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-28T12:56:04.519+0000) > > **you need to play a lot to even touch BE**. A single level in this game, even just before a milestone when it's at its longest, does not take a long time. You are in the wrong genre if you are whining and moaning about a dozen hours of your life.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-27T23:05:18.529+0000) > > It's about the same as before except slightly higher AND you can use shards for further discounts AND rune costs were removed which were a much more necessary cost than mastery levels which can easily be ignored. > That doesn't mean that the flow or opportunity costs are improved. Mastery upgrades still are an area where people find utility, and I don't think it's valid to say that it can be "easily ignored" in your argument. The low BE flow and opportunity costs combined are what the issue is, not too much individually, but when added together is why the new system isn't enjoyable. > Not playing every day is of no consequence, what matters is how long your play sessions are because that determines how many games proc your FWotD bonus. If you only play 2-3 games per session then your BE income has increased compared to IP because FWotD was buffed and it makes up an above-average portion of your income. "Not playing every day is of no consequence" this is really not true. It means you don't get to use the FWOTD bonus then, which is a HUGE part of leveling up and it gives you 50 BE straight up. This means that some people would only be getting 50-150 BE PER WEEK compared to say 6-9 games worth of BE + the old FWOTD bonus in the old system. You cannot say that this new system is better off then in this case, which is a lot more common than you think. I don't understand why you aren't even attracted by a more steady BE income, it has absolutely no drawbacks whatsoever. The best change imo would be to change FWOTD to 500xp only, and add 30-50 BE after each game. This way, BE could be more steadily gained and will help you buy champs / mastery upgrades faster, and will benefit those who don't play that often, while also rewarding the more active players more. It's a win win for everyone while not affecting Riot's profits all that much - BE still will take a little longer to gain large amounts of (buy champs with RP instead), and boosters will still be equally beneficial.
> [{quoted}](name=0racle0912,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-28T00:04:17.938+0000) > > "Not playing every day is of no consequence" this is really not true. Yes it is, the obvious measure of BE/IP gains is "gains per time spent playing the game," so whether you play daily or weekly, the only thing that matters is how much you play between each first win of the day, and your example was 2-3 games per FWotD, meaning your BE gained per time spent playing went up relative to your IP gained per time spent playing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-12-27T22:30:29.246+0000) > > But extra gains are being made. > > False. You simply can't expect to get anywhere in the conversation when working under false assumptions. How are extra BE gains being made from the previous system? It's the about the same as before but we need to use BE for more things now. Sorry, I wasn't clear there. I was directing that statement more towards the players like me who don't get to play every day. You don't have to be so rude about this lol. It's an opinion on this issue, and a lot of people are making the same complains.
> [{quoted}](name=0racle0912,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-27T22:49:25.344+0000) > > How are extra BE gains being made from the previous system? It's the about the same as before but we need to use BE for more things now. It's about the same as before except slightly higher AND you can use shards for further discounts AND rune costs were removed which were a much more necessary cost than mastery levels which can easily be ignored. > Sorry, I wasn't clear there. I was directing that statement more towards the players like me who don't get to play every day. Not playing every day is of no consequence, what matters is how long your play sessions are because that determines how many games proc your FWotD bonus. If you only play 2-3 games per session then your BE income has increased compared to IP because FWotD was buffed and it makes up an above-average portion of your income.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-27T22:29:16.781+0000) > > He didn't USE first win? Did he play 10 games in a row without winning a single one? That's pretty impressive. Did he play 10 games in a row AFTER getting his first win? That's like 6 hours dedicated to League in a single day which is way above average and will still be giving him very high daily BE income. I elaborated more clearly just below that. If his first win bonus had taken him to 30, none of his games within the next 22 hours will be eligible for first win. This didn't need to happen in 6 hours straight, just within 22 hours. But the point remains. He gets less per game by not getting First Win bonuses as often. This is a fact and it's something you overlooked by taking something entirely out of context.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-27T22:44:45.543+0000) > > I elaborated more clearly just below that. If his first win bonus had taken him to 30, none of his games within the next 22 hours will be eligible for first win. This didn't need to happen in 6 hours straight, just within 22 hours. > > But the point remains. He gets less per game by not getting First Win bonuses as often. This is a fact and it's something you overlooked by taking something entirely out of context. So you're interpreting his BE income while deliberately ignoring his benefit from FWotD, which is a nonsensical view to take.
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-27T15:56:55.356+0000) > > Why did you preface your post with your experience in economics and then blatantly disregard the economic advantages of the features you're talking about? > > Having a single currency for multiple features is good for the consumer, not bad, because it allows them to choose what they want from available options. If Riot gave us separate currencies for mastery and champ unlocks and tuned those numbers appropriately, then players who'd rather have champions than mastery levels and vice versa would receive less utility than under the current system, while those who value them equally would receive the same utility either way. > > You said it's targeting the players who don't play much to make them feel bad, but it's actually quite the opposite. Someone who can only play 2-3 games in a session receives MASSIVE benefit from FWotD regardless of how often they are able to have play sessions. The length of your play sessions means you're in the class of player who benefits the most from the change increasing the value of FWotD. If you read what I said more closely, you will see that I said that the one currency is bad when **no extra gains are being made**. This is the reason why it is so unpopular in my opinion, and is the main reason why the theory of opportunity cost is present here. We have to make decisions among alternatives (mastery vs champs) on where to spend our scarce resource (BE), which lowers the economic profit / satisfaction of this system. By increasing the flow of BE our opportunity cost would be lower and it would solve a lot of the frustration here. Creating another currency was the less favorable option to me, but it worked to some extent in the previous system since the BE was more useful for mysteries compared to champ shards, as IP was the main currency for that (relate this back to a higher utility gained in this case). If we got more BE, specifically a better flow of it, the singular currency will be better, and I think that's what Riot was aiming for when designing this entire system in the first place - it just needs some adjustments. That is true, but we still are getting far less BE than from the previous system in general since we have to level up to get the BE at the end, or just a small, one time deal (per day) of the 50 BE from FWOTD. If the old system, or my suggestion was implemented, the flow of BE would be greater, and this is critical in my opinion to make the system successful. Even players who do get to play a couple games each day don't get the best BE flow; if we got a small amount of BE after each game, the grind would be a **little** less frustrating. My reference to players who don't get to play often not benefiting much from FWOTD is because sometimes they might only be able to benefit from it 2-3 times a week, similar to my case. It had nothing to do with "who benefits more from it", but was more directed to emphasize the lower flow of BE compared to the previous system / my suggestions.
> [{quoted}](name=0racle0912,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WvZAXvlh,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-12-27T22:12:25.072+0000) > > If you read what I said more closely, you will see that I said that the one currency is bad when **no extra gains are being made**. But extra gains are being made. > That is true, but we still are getting far less BE than from the previous system in general False. You simply can't expect to get anywhere in the conversation when working under false assumptions.
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Quepha

Level 51 (NA)
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