: [Meta] We need better moderation on this board. There shouldn't be 10+ posts about the same topic.
what makes you think they care about the boards? rioters don't care about coming here and straight-up lying to players about what's going on.
: His identity as what exactly? That quiet, creepy old man and his bird who stared at you while wearing mystery, eating questions, and shitting enigmas? That guy? Old Swain's identity was pretty much a blank slate, because he had next to no personality, and what little he had was veiled in the context of his bird. As for his old kit, it was basically "DON'T YOU FUCKING COME NEAR ME." All his kit was was zoning people in lane, and it was boring, and very rarely did he ever do anything impactful short of happening to stand near someone with his ult active and hope they died from his DOTs. Old Swain was absolutely boring and forgettable, and his kit was outdated, and nothing about him really emphasized the power he was supposed to represent in the lore.
You completely disregard the image of a withered, balding old man with a pronounced limp and cane, and the way he completely transformed into an unrecognizable bird monster for his ult. These were iconic and always mentioned by players as the reason they liked playing Swain. Then you started rambling about gameplay health for some reason which has absolutely nothing to do with a word I said, it seems you just have an axe to grind for no reason.
Velasan (NA)
: Swain rework looking back
"Swains original identity was largely removed when he was reworked." All that needs to be said. This is a new, unrelated character that occupies the character slot previously occupied by Swain. Riot did not try to preserve the old character and admitted as such in their article about his development. Every time the prospect of a Swain update came up in the years preceding this, players instantly and repeatedly submitted the same laundry list of things that should stay intact so Swain could still be considered Swain and Riot ignored every single one. Riot says that players should talk about what champions mean to us and people did and Riot still didn't give a shit.
: The Darkin just got retconned. Why?
Riot's writers gonna write. They don't care about the old story, they don't care about existing fans, they don't care about the game. If something stands in their way they're just gonna steamroll over it. That's why.
GreenLore (EUW)
: The old lore of Varus was the full bio by the standards of the time. And the thing is that even if you don't agree with Riots reasoning,the point is that they had a reason.
It wasn't a straightforward story. If the "reason" is blatantly false then it doesn't count. This isn't even a "moving the goalposts" situation, Riot literally just spouted irrelevant nonsense.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Actually they did state a reason for the massive lore change for Varus They considered that his old lore was just too straightforward. You might not agree with their reasoning(heck I myself don't agree with it),but Riot did not change it without any reason at all.
Considering it was only a short form lore, it was about as not-straightforward as you can get. Nothing Riot has said about this decision makes any sense.
: Firstly, I would argue that their opting to add the wings back to Aatrox directly proves your "they don't care about fans when reworking things" point wrong. Secondly, if you could tell me when they've outright gone and said "there was nothing wrong with this stuff, but that didn't matter because we just felt like deleting it," I'd appreciate it. Unless, of course, you mean changing items and summoner spells and forcing people to adapt to new styles of play. Generally, a good thing. Sometimes, a bad thing. Keeping the game fresh probably has something to do with the dominant position League keeps in the arena of MOBA games. But finally, I'd make the case that Riot is pretty transparent when they change things. They regularly host Q&A's concerning new content, they have playtesters that are part of the community - hell, they were even surveying Naut players about his lore prior to the Pyke event. So, love it or hate it, they're up front with you. Does that mean they never make any bad changes? Hell no. Do they not give a shit about keeping the people who play their game happy? Once again; hell no. That's a moronic idea.
> [{quoted}](name=Interspace,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AAnfNr56,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-06-21T02:26:26.966+0000) > > if you could tell me when they've outright gone and said "there was nothing wrong with this stuff, but that didn't matter because we just felt like deleting it," https://www.reddit.com/r/VarusMains/comments/7gnmnc/ama_were_the_rioters_behind_the_update_to_varus/dqmolhk/ "Varus's lore wasn't bad at all, and it was better than a lot of older bios, but my personal take was that, yeah, he had a cool moment of choice where duty warred with desire, and he chose duty." But they changed it anyways, and they changed it to a story that was in no way similar to the old one and created more dissonance between Varus's in-game character and the story itself, you can find comments from Scathlocke admitting to the dissonance this created. They demolished a Greek tragedy about the pain of loss and replaced it with a story completely devoid of loss as a concept while claiming it was the same, showing a total ignorance about human emotion. It isn't even a tragedy no matter how much Riot repeats the word to try and hide their lies. > But finally, I'd make the case that Riot is pretty transparent when they change things. They kept the Varus rewrite under wraps for a year (again, you can find this out by looking at Scathlocke's tweets, the project started before he became narrative lead which was about a year before the rewrite) until the leak which drew a resoundingly negative reaction before they lied to stall for time to move forward with the full lore drop. They knew they were deleting a story that fans liked. They knew people were going to be sad about the story's completely unnecessary deletion. They didn't say a word and only cared about the new thing they were creating even though they were forcefully shoving it into a space where it would never quite fit.
: An Appeal for Aatrox
Riot has shown time and again that they don't care about fans when reworking things. It's not just Aatrox and it's not simply a matter of things having to change and some sacrifices needing to be made along the way. Riot has been making changes that are clearly unnecessary, admitting that there was nothing wrong with the old content that was deleted to make space, and admitting that they don't bother looking at the old content before determining the direction of the new stuff.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sun God Leona,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pRbQ7bHo,comment-id=00210000,timestamp=2018-06-18T23:40:50.768+0000) > > you know what i love, designers who dont sit around and not listen to their community and come up with dumbshit ideas cause their word is final so they dont bother to get involved. but hey, at least narrative writer gets involved with its community, doubtful you relay how unsatisfied leagues community is tho. > > must be nice working for a gaming studio that only has one game too Let me go deeper. Threads like this reinforce to us devs how players view champions, what resonates, what the takeaway is (etc), plus it's full of passion and love. I'm not sure if your post was salty or complimentary... but it is nice working for Riot. I enjoy talking with players who like and who don't like my champs. Also, this thread is larger devoid of salt, which is REALLY AWESOME. Personally, I LOVE Vel'Koz. Giant eyeball with a thirst for knowledge... unfortunately he only learns by vaporizing his subject which destroys chances for further study. Irony. Ziggs -- I'm a fan of mad bomber archetypes. Bomb Voyage is my favorite part of the first Incredibles film and I'll sloppily main Junkrat in Overwatch all day.
> [{quoted}](name=FauxSchizzle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pRbQ7bHo,comment-id=002100000004,timestamp=2018-06-19T16:40:04.197+0000) > > Let me go deeper. Threads like this reinforce to us devs how players view champions, what resonates, what the takeaway is (etc) Shame that no one at your company gave a shit about any of that and the narrative side just started deleting characters on a whim no matter how many times players criticized Riot for doing it. Rioters even lied about what they were doing on the boards and clearly explained that Riot is 100% fine with throwing old fans under the bus as long as they can get more new fans out of the change in the future.
: What's your favourite champ or the typical character the champ represents
I liked the tragic Greek hero. Then riot deleted him from the game. I hope that doesn't happen to your favorite character, but it probably will at some point
: I wish that Varus could receive a Visual Update (+3D Model Viewer)
"Varus" needs a full VGU to fit the new story, his current gameplay kit doesn't fit the new story at all (Even Scathlocke has publicly admitted the new story has created ludonarrative dissonance). But Varus's current kit is actually very iconic and healthy for the game so a gameplay update cannot be justified. The entire rewrite was a horrible decision from the start and the story should have been saved for a brand new champion.
GenoXx (NA)
: Can we talk about how a big portion of Runeterra's history got thrown out the window?
Riot doesn't care about any old lore. If you put effort into following the lore then just keep preparing yourself for disappointment as this won't be the last ret-con.
GenoXx (NA)
: I didn't think Riot could mess up another champion again, I was wrong.
It's good that you learn this sooner rather than later. I really thought Riot learned something after making a huge mistake with the Trundle rework, and I made excuse after excuse with every subsequent failure until I finally realized that Riot does not learn from their mistakes or history. It's simply too big of a company with too many independently working parts that leave and are replaced too often.
: Petition to change his name to Vaarus
This would be better than leaving it as Varus simply because it outlines how much this is a completely different character. Honestly, they should come up with a completely new name for the champion occupying Varus's slot because the new character is in no way Varus.
: What is deemed as "important" is a matter of personal preference, and Riot has to treat both players who engage with the lore and those who don't equally. What you're suggesting would leave players who enjoy the lore out in to cold to appeal to the players who can't be arsed to read.
> [{quoted}](name=Óuroboros,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=G7ahwUs1,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-06-13T22:08:08.187+0000) > > What is deemed as "important" is a matter of personal preference This is a character-focused moba, that's a straight-up fact. Riot's focus for the narrative on story > characters has created ludonarrative dissonance that damages the quality of the actual game experience which is Riot's top priority per their manifesto.
Dr Mercy (NA)
: Darkin aren't a Force of Nature anymore.
"anymore" is the key word. Riot is just ret-conning lore whenever they feel like it and betraying players who were attached to certain aspects of the game.
: A Common, Missed Point on Champ Reworks
The characters are more important than the story in a game like this. If the characters don't fit then warp the story to fit the characters. If that's simply impossible, then accept that your story is going to kinda suck. Riot forgot they're supposed to be making a game first and they are making decisions that either separate the story from the game or hurt the game to help the story.
: The absolute worst thing about New Aatrox is that Riot will not listen to the Community
Sukishoo (NA)
: Probably gonna retcon Nautilus' lore.
most likely this was why scathlocke started that thread about nautilus
SatomiKun (EUW)
: Essences: Dr. Mundo
Changing him back to a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde character because it better fits the idea of Zaun-ian experimentation and is overall a better story than the new lore.
: I can agree with Varus, despite the fact that I personally believe that his narrative went from trite, tired, and boring into something unqiue and different - and I like it - but it did reinvent him completely. However, Swain's narrative didn't change a lot. He's still the grand general of Noxus, and his lore is no longer "Swain and his bird eat secrets, shit mystery, and are enveloped in suspense." Instead, they built on his old lore to give it more definition and more of a place in the world. Old Swain was just old leader of Noxus who appeared with a mystery bird and ruled Noxus. New Swain now explains that his bird is now a demon that lives in the Immortal Bastion that Mordekaiser once ruled from, and in exchange for secrets, it grants him a new arm and the power to propel Noxus forward. Old Swain was too vague for the narrative, and that vagueness isn't good for someone who's supposed to be one of the key characters in the grand story arc of the game. The new Swain solidified him and gave him purpose and gave us understanding. It dissolved Beatrice from being one bird to being a hivemind demon raven, and in all honesty, it works much better in the long run. New Swain is also more self propelled and more of a character than old Swain, as we actually get to see his personality and understand what kind of ruler he is. But all in all, his narrative expanded and fleshed him out, it didn't reinvent him. It's hard to reinvent someone who's nothing by an enigma.
There was a laundry list players had of character attributes that made Swain Swain and Riot deleted every. single. one. They admitted in the follow up article that Swain's rework was unique in that Swain was not that big of an inspiration for the update. Swain was not an inspiration for the Swain update. You can go read the article right now where they flat out state it.
heroikc (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wLd2IGEs,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-08T15:53:00.154+0000) > > 20% bearable is still better than call or pick order. You mistake the 20% to be "bearable" instead of the random dodges and lousy picks it does represent.
You still aren't contesting the claim that pick order was worse (that's because you know pick order was worse)
heroikc (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wLd2IGEs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-07T19:10:57.892+0000) > > matchmaking literally doesn't work without it. Matchmaking is 80% unbearable with it.
20% bearable is still better than call or pick order.
Banuvan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wLd2IGEs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-07T19:10:57.892+0000) > > matchmaking literally doesn't work without it. That would indicate there is something wrong with the very basis of the the game if people don't want to play specific roles. It means there are fundamental issues preventing people from wanting to play those roles on a regular basis which goes back to the foundation of the game.
It's impossible to make champions and roles that are unique and different while also managing to make them all appeal to exactly 20% of the population.
: It still exists, though you'll have to find it on the wiki. But they try at the very least to update a character and stories, and not eradicate them entirely. Sure, they botch it now and again, but what Riot has is an evolving narrative, and not a fixed narrative.
They literally didn't even try with Varus and Swain, Riot publicly admitted this even though they once promised to do a better job and be respectful to their fans. The idea of an evolving narrative meshes poorly with a game that demands an insane amount of time and devotion to play at even a basic level. players who become invested in the characters only to have them deleted on a whim because the writers don't give a shit about the fans basically have all their effort tossed in the garbage and that time they spent wasted. Riot used to think fans devoted to their game was a good thing, that their posts and criticism represented a passion and love for the game. Now they just ignore feedback that isn't positive and you can find Ghostcrawler hanging out on Reddit shit-talking the boards because this is the only place where players have the courage to point out when Riot screws up.
: Eh, the game is a constantly evolving game. The old lore that you may have loved was just a shotgun blast of random stories that barely tried to connect to one another, let alone make a believable world. The retconning of the lore is creating a concrete universe for everything to fit into, and that kind of things happens all the time in games and series that are trying to make a more rich environment for it's characters to exist in. There's not really any point in getting hurt over the stories being updated when it's kind of inevitable, like in comic books or videogame sagas, especially since it's for the better of the lore of the game. Besides, it's nowhere near as bad as printed or physical material getting retconned. Take the Star Wars Expanded Universe for instance. Back in the 90s, the only content we had before and after the Original Trilogy were books that sought to fill the void that Lucas left open. They did a marvelous job with it, introducing beloved characters like Mara Jade, an assassin employed by the Emperor who became Luke's wife, and then Han and Leia's children, Jaina and Jacen. There was also Grand Admiral Thrawn, who attempted to keep the empire alive after Palpatine's death. There were also novels that touched on the Clone Wars as well, though not many. Either way, Lucas Arts made TONS of merch for the Expanded Universe, from card games, video games, action figures, comic books, EVERYTHING - only to have all the stories and content essentially evaporate with the introduction of those trainwreck prequels and Disney's versions of 7,8 and soon 9. So basically, if you loved anything that Lucas Arts made prior to the prequels, every piece of merchandise and book you bought became pointless since the movies basically erased the rich universe that was created.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AEL8ycZm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-05-07T15:45:14.569+0000) > > Besides, it's nowhere near as bad as printed or physical material getting retconned. It is EXACTLY as bad because it is the characters and stories we have in our heads that really matter. The fact that the information is digital just makes it easier for Riot to commit the travesty of deleting what we love.
Banuvan (NA)
: Can you please get rid of autofill.
matchmaking literally doesn't work without it.
: Don't you think the Lore is actaully kinda wasted?
The writers don't care about the game or the players. They will write stories completely divorced from how the characters have existed before and completely divorced from everything we see from the characters in the game.
: Sure, the suit could make some more sounds, I agree on that. Second, if her abillities would be more conncted to the suit, I would agree, but since Riot made her gameplay like it is, if feels like her second skin was supposed to be the original, but since the suit itself does a lot less what we think of a symbiote would do and more of a tech suit would, it's hard to give lines to something that in combat doesn't really manifests. Thirdly, Let's take Swain as an example. Swain won his powers from a demon inside the Etrnal Bastion, he found an unknown way to wield it. YET NO ONE COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT GIVING THE DEMON IN HIS ARM LINES. Because it is not the point. Swain is. The demon? Its powers? How Swain won over?? Does. Not. Matter. It's just means to an end, just Like Kai'sas case She won and hunted Voidlings when she was a little girl, with only a shield on her arm, where the symbiote attched to her. That means she hunted them HERSELF. That is what Kai'sa is. Not a symbiote wielder. A Survivor, that became a Hunter.
> [{quoted}](name=calibergunsaint,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qeA0Fk7M,comment-id=000c0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-27T13:56:20.548+0000) > > YET NO ONE COMPLAINED ABOUT NOT GIVING THE DEMON IN HIS ARM LINES. Because people were more focused on the fact that his character looked and felt nothing like Swain.
Rhai (EUNE)
: At that point you might as well have made Kai'sa a piltie or zaunie and sell it off as her just science'ing a voidspawn carcass into a bitchin' suit
Would make more sense regarding her apparent immunity to the corrupting forces of the void.
Splision (NA)
: Or they could simply update his visuals and VO.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000010009,timestamp=2018-04-26T14:50:09.628+0000) > > A sadist is an individual who finds pleasure in hurting or torturing something else. Nothing indicates that Jhin gives a shit about the pain his victims feel. His pleasure is in the actual kill.
Splision (NA)
: Or they could simply update his visuals and VO.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000010008,timestamp=2018-04-26T06:09:38.947+0000) > > So what you're saying is that Varus should get a VGU to fit his new lore. Thanks for finally agreeing with me. Destroying good gameplay to follow a story is literally against Riot's manifesto.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Honestly, i have a very strong feeling that none of the people who are still talking about Kai'Sa even read her lore or accompanied lore from the Void, Kassadin and Malzahar. Or even her short comic. Because this is still a dumb debate about how people cannot even grasp a simple concept of a symbiote. Eddie Brock's and Venom's relationship can be defined as possession. Riot explained this multiple times already but Kayn is a character that's relatively close to this thematic because one personality wins in the end. It's either Kayn or Rhaast. His gameplay revolves around this fact of a transformation into one or the other. These two even talk to each other and others. Why would Riot make a very similar character in thematic, except from a different faction/place? They explicitly said they wanted a human that's related to the Void, not corrupted by it. Think of Kai'Sa's symbiote as Stark's Iron Man suit. While Stark controls his, Kai'Sa doesn't control hers. It gives her control of its Void powers because Kai'Sa does what's needed to do with them and as long as it's kept sated, she gets to do what she wants. The question is what happens when she stops indulging the creature?
> [{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qeA0Fk7M,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-26T13:20:10.352+0000) > > Think of Kai'Sa's symbiote as Stark's Iron Man suit. I do, and I think that's extremely boring to the point where it betrays the potential of the concept.
Splision (NA)
: Or they could simply update his visuals and VO.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000010005,timestamp=2018-04-26T05:43:08.211+0000) > > Jhin is also a sadist and he's a sniper. Jhin is not a sadist, he is an artist. He is focused on killing his intended target according to plan so the world can observe his work. You don't understand the definition of sadist and you don't understand Jhin's lore. > Shadow Assassin and Darkin play differently Right. The Ionians and the Darkin should also play differently because they are different beings and also the most interesting aspect of the new lore.
: A lore change to match his gameplay, maybe. You said “a revert”, which would imply that only changing it back to what it was and not changing anything about his old lore is the most correct option. You are saying that the old lore of Varus was better than anything Riot could have written for him. Saying that reverting his lore completely and not editing it to make more sense with his gameplay is the correct option is fine... but it’s your opinion. It’s not a hard fact. Saying it is implies that all other opinions are wrong, including those who actually like the rewrite. That’s a bit closed-minded.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000005,timestamp=2018-04-26T05:13:57.641+0000) > > How did Varus' pain and anguish come through so differently? Because he betrayed his entire purpose after feeling that anguish. His storyline is that of a Greek hero who is deeply flawed with hubris keeping him from understanding his flaws until it's too late. The nihilistic betrayal of his one purpose shows how empty you feel when someone is truly lost to you. Cold, dead, empty.
Splision (NA)
: Or they could simply update his visuals and VO.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000010003,timestamp=2018-04-26T05:06:14.383+0000) > > This time you are actually wrong. Read the lore again buddy. Varus used a bow and arrows before he was sealed away. And he was a sadist who delighted in tormenting his victims. That means stalking, that means low-medium range so you can hear their begging and watch their faces, not sniper/artillery range where they drop like a rock without even seeing it coming. > > Why does there need to be a mechanic that ties in the multiple personalities? Rhaast still has the same abilities as Kayn. Like I said all he needs is a VU and a VO to go with it. The multiple personalities can be worked in through the VO. Are you denying that Shadow Assassin and Darkin forms play differently? Are you trying to say that those forms play the same and serve the same purpose in a match? Do you think the differences between the forms are mainly superficial and not the major reason Kayn comes across as a compelling character? Because if that's the case, then out of every post you've made in this thread you have never been more wrong.
Caekie (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=MuffledGarbage,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qeA0Fk7M,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-25T23:35:08.137+0000) > > Riot seriously should have taken a LOT of notes from Venom as a whole. Considering the fact that Venom is THE PERFECT EXAMPLE of what Riot should have done with Kai'Sa (in terms of the symbiotic parasite still having it's own agenda/thoughts/feelings/basically everything while still being attached to Kai'Sa) But then you realize that Kai'sa isn't the only champion in the league and that Kayne (also a very recent champion) has already taken the theme of parasitic being trying to take over. TBH I think her theme connecting to the likes of Metroid and zero-suit samus is a better example than Venom.
Samus, the character known for not actually being presented as any specific gender for the majority of the game, surprising players with her reveal at the end. The rising prevalence of Samus appearing in her zero suit and being presented as more and more sexually attractive has also been associated with Nintendo losing touch with her character and subsequently losing more and more of her appeal among dedicated fans. Zero Mission was the only exception to this.
Tomoe Gozen (EUNE)
: Except that the symbiote that bonded with Kaisa isn't an alien giga-putty that can morph into any shape. or hide under plain sight. It doesn't even talk to her. It just stuck to her after its death and lived on her ever since. She had to keep it fed because she wasn't sure if it would turn on her.
I think that's a standard writing strategy, to try and distinguish yourself from similar works by taking every interesting aspect of the character and removing it to become as dull as possible. /s
: Appreciation Thread
Just want to pop in and remind you that the quality of low risk side content in no way makes up for completely disrespectful rewrites to established characters :)
: A lore change to match his gameplay, maybe. You said “a revert”, which would imply that only changing it back to what it was and not changing anything about his old lore is the most correct option. You are saying that the old lore of Varus was better than anything Riot could have written for him. Saying that reverting his lore completely and not editing it to make more sense with his gameplay is the correct option is fine... but it’s your opinion. It’s not a hard fact. Saying it is implies that all other opinions are wrong, including those who actually like the rewrite. That’s a bit closed-minded.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2018-04-25T21:24:17.241+0000) > > But you liking the old lore doesn't justify keeping a gimmick that's common among comic book characters. There are other champions that seek vengeance for the loss their family members and loved ones. Varus isn't unique in that regard. > > {{champion:236}} > {{champion:21}} > {{champion:67}} Actually it does because the character was already established as part of the canon for years. Whether or not there are other characters with similar stories (although your examples are very poor compared to how much Varus's pain and anguish came through in his old story) the fact remains that it was still Varus's story. What Riot did is akin to making Greedo shoot first except even more drastic.
Splision (NA)
: Or they could simply update his visuals and VO.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2018-04-25T21:09:26.755+0000) > > It does. The Darkin, Varus, was known for being a bowmaster that used blighted arrows against his enemies. His weapon of choice and fighting style never changed in the new lore so his current gameplay fits with his new lore. Wrong. The Ionians are hunters and the Darkin is a sadistic stalker. They should have short-medium range for an adc as long range is useless in a thick forest and far less personal, they should have vision and mobility to follow their prey as opposed to anti-mobility from charging up his Q, they should have single target tools instead of being known for AoE, and they should have a mechanic that ties in the multiple personalities aspect of the story. Even Scathlocke has admitted that Varus's current gameplay meshes worse with his new story than the old.
: Did Jinx "really" murder tons of people?
It's simply not possible to knock down a building without collateral damage.
: A lore change to match his gameplay, maybe. You said “a revert”, which would imply that only changing it back to what it was and not changing anything about his old lore is the most correct option. You are saying that the old lore of Varus was better than anything Riot could have written for him. Saying that reverting his lore completely and not editing it to make more sense with his gameplay is the correct option is fine... but it’s your opinion. It’s not a hard fact. Saying it is implies that all other opinions are wrong, including those who actually like the rewrite. That’s a bit closed-minded.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-25T01:50:44.655+0000) > > I'm a devoted player, too. Your opinion is no better than mine. Never said it was, but you liking the new lore still doesn't justify it because it meant destroying something that some people liked. "Pain vs. Gain" is a completely idiotic policy in this scenario.
Splision (NA)
: Or they could simply update his visuals and VO.
That doesn't address the disconnect between his gameplay and the lore, you haven't listened to anything I've said. His old story fit his current gameplay much better than the new story and it's obvious that a new champion designed around the new lore would work completely different from Varus.
: A lore change to match his gameplay, maybe. You said “a revert”, which would imply that only changing it back to what it was and not changing anything about his old lore is the most correct option. You are saying that the old lore of Varus was better than anything Riot could have written for him. Saying that reverting his lore completely and not editing it to make more sense with his gameplay is the correct option is fine... but it’s your opinion. It’s not a hard fact. Saying it is implies that all other opinions are wrong, including those who actually like the rewrite. That’s a bit closed-minded.
I suppose it's true that Riot doesn't value being loyal to long-time fans. When you work on a game that requires months of effort from new players before they can play the game at the most basic level, it seems bizarre to me that you would then decide it's a good idea to spend time, money, and effort to take a figurative dump on parts of the game those devoted players enjoy but that does appear to be Riot's modus operandi.
: I think the point was that saying “a lore revert is the most correct route” is an opinion, not a fact.
But that is also a fact which clearly follows from the other facts I have stated. There is a disconnect between his new lore and his gameplay which Riot has acknowledged. Riot puts gameplay first and Varus's gameplay is of high quality. Therefore, his gameplay should not be drastically changed. Therefore, the only remaining thing that can be changed is his lore.
Splision (NA)
: That's an opinion. Not a fact. So far I've enjoyed most of the new lore that the narrative team is pumping out, and I've also enjoyed most if not all of the VGUs as well. Aatrox, a champion added to the roster after Varus, is getting a VGU. I don't see why Varus shouldn't.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=000000030001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T18:16:45.403+0000) > > That's an opinion. Not a fact. Wrong. Varus's relevance and the quality of his gameplay is a documented fact supported by the posts and behavior of many Rioters over the years. For example, Varus is one of the adcs who received little to no work in the Marksman update because the team working on the update recognized his kit as already being healthy and iconic. The fact that you've enjoyed the stories as standalone stories really doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about. The story meshes poorly with the gameplay, the story is disloyal to people who were already fans of the character, the actual quality of it is irrelevant. The Varus rework was a failure. Aatrox is getting a VGU because his gameplay is garbage and has been since he went live. It didn't feel unique or fun, it didn't mesh with his lore, and it wasn't healthy for the game. Aatrox has needed a massive update since he was released.
: Other than altered lore due to updates, I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Could you list a few examples?
> [{quoted}](name=Zallamance,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=000000030002,timestamp=2018-04-23T20:44:45.123+0000) > > Other than altered lore due to updates, I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Could you list a few examples? Altering lore in ways that don't keep the old core of the character intact is a way to delete a character. Varus as a character doesn't exist anymore and has been replaced. Also, Swain, Riot completely ignored all player feedback and suggestions for what he means to them to make a brand new character with no resemblance to the old one, and even admitted as such in their follow-up article about his design.
: I don't believe that Riot appologized for the Fiora lore the only really big change they made base off of community feedback was change the haircut, the Fiora lore was good and relatively consistent with previous lore.
They wrote a follow-up article indicating they regretted changing her without taking player feelings into account (they just didn't regret it enough to do much about it). After reading that article I didn't think Riot would ever do anything like the Varus rewrite or the Swain update.
Splision (NA)
: Varus' lore rewrite wasn't a failure. He needs a VGU but that doesn't mean his lore rewrite was a failure.
> [{quoted}](name=Splision,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yGuE7i8u,comment-id=0000000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T03:42:22.733+0000) > > He needs a VGU Wrong. Varus has an iconic gameplay kit that is fun and accessible to players of all skill levels, healthy for the game in terms of play/counterplay, and carves out its own niche in terms of strengths and weaknesses among the cast of adcs. A dramatic change to his kit to risk destroying this delicate balance in order to better match a lore update would be a grand sin. The most correct route for making Varus into a cohesive whole would be a lore revert.
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Quepha

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