: how do you know these are bots? they could be a group of people that come from a discord to upvote/downvote things
i saw it when the posts were upvoted. they had like 40~ish+ upvotes each, now some of the threads have +9 upvotes and the others have less than 40. they went from green topics to red ones.
Bevdog101 (OCE)
: Will Twitch ADC be viable this season?
wow, there really were bots upvoting. from over 40 upvotes to 9 now.
: How do I beat a fed Ryze?
Ryze counters Leblanc, and the answer is that you don't. Play with your team and ask them to face him in sidelanes instead of expecting you to do so. Only real options at that point is to pick him off when he's alone or to focus him incredibly hard during teamfights.
: He didnt have an impressive winrate because he wasnt really strong and he definitely didnt do anything that darius didnt do better except have a shield. Maybe besides have hard cc but that diffrence only really mattered versus a fiddle sticks as you moved just as far out of after tahm's stun as darius using his W but darius' w was on a shorter cooldown and doing way more damage (+bleed)
Tahm was distinct from Dairus. Yes, Tahm had downsides in areas where Darius had advantages, but Tahm DID have edges over Darius. Darius' threat range was limited to his hook(535 range), Tahm's threat range was his Tongue Lash(900). If Darius hooks you, you can often get away. Very rarely could you get far if Tahm if he lashed you. The slow was oppressively strong, so he was essentially guaranteed to get his passive off and swallow you, thus keeping you in place. Yes, I know it had downsides, but it was oppressive nonetheless. Darius can be killed if you win a few trades. Killing Tahm Kench took winning dozens. It took a TREMENDOUS amount effort to kill him due to his grey health, tank build, and the fact that he could peel himself with his CC. Some of the reasons killing him was so hard ALSO meant he could dive you if you tried to play safe. He didn't have an impressive winrate because he was trash once laning phase ended, not because he wasn't strong. Here's the reminder that TFBlade literally lost lane to a Silver player because the Silver picked Tahm Kench. If a champion needs a ridiculous WR to be considered strong or oppressive, then not a single ranged top is strong or oppressive aside from Quinn. Not Vayne, not Ryze, not Heimer, not Cass, not Kennen, not whatever else. You get the point.
Kazekiba (NA)
: >Jayce >Failure to dominate early Thats ... all Jayce does?????
Fail to dominate the early game? Yes. Jayce may or not anecdotally kick someone's teeth in during the early game, but current stats show that he has a negative WR in general AND during the early, thus he's failing at his entire purpose.
SirEnds (NA)
: Who are the worst champions in the game in the current meta?
Jayce. I hate the champion and I'm glad that he's weak AF, but we're in a VERY early game meta. His entire purpose is around being an early game bully, so his current failure to dominate the early game mean's he's 100% trash. Not useless but still trash. Imagine the irony of ANY scaling champion being a better pick than him in this early game meta.
: One sided games prove that the matchmaking is bad?
false. there's more factors to one sided games than matchmaking. you can put players with the exact same mmr in a game and still get a stomp. say for example, there's a diamond one trick but his champion is banned. without his champion, he plays around plat level at best and he's absolutely destroyed in lane. there's only 3 lanes and you're guaranteed to lose that one. now to take this further. even if the other players were somehow equals, someone has to lose lane. the other two lanes are 50/50, so the team with the diamond one trick is likely to lose 2 lanes out of 3 and also likelier to lose all 3 lanes. matchups, early game cheese, and tilt also affect this.
: So, let's talk Akali
So, let's avoid reading a condescending block of text
: This one guy attempted to address heimerdinger on the boards, and a lot of people upvoted him, but about half the day later it got downvoted to hell in literally the span of 1 hour. Heimerdinger mains amirite?
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/QFIzREhO-why-is-heinerdinger-top-a-thing-why-do-people-shamelessly-abuse-it
HalexUwU (NA)
: How do you play against himerdinger adc?
You don't. Not even exaggerating. Heimerdinger's design is just trash. Until you're big enough to kill his turrets quickly, you let him push you under the tur. For counterpicks, I'd assume Morg, Syndra, Yasuo, and Tahm Kench.
: > Cassio hits a Q and EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, you ded Any adc hits a rightclick on you and AA-AA-AA-AA-AA-..., you ded You are not supposed to stand still and afk while under Cassio's Q. > I guess she's gated by mana Early game she is gated by mana, lack of mobility and waveclear. Late game she is gated by her range. She is basically an ADC mage, and is gated by whatever ADCs are gated too. > move around like an idiot to dodge Qs It's called "dodging", not "moving like an idiot". You know, a skill that is a requirement to be okay midlaner.
> [{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ByHxWo1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-09T14:10:47.604+0000) > > Any adc hits a rightclick on you and AA-AA-AA-AA-AA-..., you ded > You are not supposed to stand still and afk while under Cassio's Q. It's different. ADCs are typically easy to engage on and blow up, but it's incredibly hard to do this to Cass unless you're playing something to match the mobility and DMG of a Zed. Besides, Cass is stronger than most ADCs. If Cass hits ONE Q then E's, that's nearly half your health bar. To top it off, "just dodging" her abilities isn't as meaningful as dodging the abilities of others. Once she has tear, she's free to spam Q, which has a longer range(850) than every ADC does btw, every 3 seconds and hit you with her "second auto-attack," which has 700 range, every second. Top Lane Cassiopeia is not OK. She's a hyper scaling lane bully that you CAN'T punish. The fix is obvious, get rid of her grounding or the 50% slow. You say she's gated by her range late game, but she literally has some of the highest range in the game.
: What's the reasoning behind mages like Cassio/Ryze ?
> [{quoted}](name=option paralysis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6ByHxWo1,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-12-09T12:41:25.671+0000) > Only way to win lane is to play someone that one shots them in half a second or what ? 100% AGREE. The problem arises when you can't even one shot them because of how omega-safe they are.
: P.S. Talking about Senna W, not Q. And no. Every condition of Senna's W is exactly EXACTLY the same as Morg's Q. Being delayed doesn't make it more conditional. That just impacts the ability of a nontarget to get out of the aoe. It can also be used on a low HP minion NEAR a champion, to instantly root the champion. It can also wave freeze on its own. A LOT more applications for the same hit box/range/cooldown etc. Neeko does NOT have a delay, and can go straight through targets. Neeko's also travels faster than Morg's.
Paroe (NA)
: I used to be a malzahar main, im not anymore but can we rework him into a real champion?
Malz is actually pretty strong. He's like the anti-champion champion. Dude is a walking zoning and "outplay" button tool.
: Can Tahm Kench get something back?
The only thing Tahm should get back is back to back nerfs. Absolutely cancerous whenever he's decent(when he was terrorizing the lane a few months ago, he didn't even have an impressive WR) or strong.
: Senna's Q is exactly the same "conditions" as Morg Q: Same Cooldown. Same Range, Same mana cast. Same projectile speed. Same width. The only difference is after it hits, and Senna's W scales up to 2.25 second root, so hardly much less CC for its increased versatility. Neeko lost a lot of the conditions on her E > If Tangle-Barbs hits at least one enemy, it grows in size and speed, and the root duration is increased. In other words..... now instead of passing through 2 targets, it now only has to pass through ONE to max out 3 seconds. Furthermore, it CAN pass through, instead of getting hard blocked. Her Q is also better at consistently putting down aoe damage than Morgana.
Senna's Q has a delayed effect and small hitbox. Same for Neeko's. It's far easier to avoid the CC of those two than Morg's Q. The differences are akin to the differences between hooks. Morg's root would be Nauts' hook, Senna's would be Pyke's, and Neeko's would be Blitz'.
: Compensated with a 3 second root when other champs now have 3 second aoe roots, much stronger knockups, or bank off nonchamp roots Single target 3 sec root isn't that special anymore.
type that out the next time you see a poor soul get hit by Morg's Q. You'll have the time to do so. what differentiates Morg here is that there's fewer conditions and risks than something like Senna's W or Neeko's snare/ult. it's generally easier to hit.
: When you offer to swap lanes...
Worst yet is when they pick difficult champions while off-roled. The mid that picks Leblanc, the top that chooses Irelia, and the jngle that chose rengar. they essentially guarantee that they'll feed.
: Because Morg's DoT is totally OP. (Not unless you have no mag resist, no compensary runes, and take a massive hit from a successful Q) Why cry about DoT when MOST off these champs are countered by Second Wind?
Like I said, it's not just about the Dot itself, but the compensations that always tag along with them too. Since Morg's Dot would take an idiot to stand atop of it, she's compensated with a 3 second root. I guarantee you her Q wouldn't last so long, be as wide as it is, and have such high scalings if her Dot weren't a Dot. You say I'm crying, but that's exactly my point. People generally dislike fighting these champions.
GodlyApe (EUW)
: Which is basically never or what
You can bait it. Trust on me on this one, I've played Ekko into Urgot over dozens of times now. What you want to do is dash(I blink) directly in front of his face, THEN most Urgots would immediately try to grab you by dashing to your current location. That's your chance to strike. You make another dash(I walk instead, but dashes are more reliable) 90 degrees to the left or right, which allows you to dodge the grab, then slam his face in because he's pretty weak once he's missed the grab. I haven't really played Riven before, but from my understanding of her, you should use your first 2/1 Qs to get in his face, then you should use E to dodge the grab because it's faster and covers more distance. This choice leaves you with little damage left but is probably the safest way to bait his grab. You can bully him once your Qs are back up, because his grab will be on CD for a few more seconds. The more rewarding, but less reliable, alternative is to E towards his face, dodge the grab with 1 Q, then Q atop of him, auto, Q again, auto, W, walk away. Both Ekko and Riven are similar in that they have a hit & run playstyle, so this should transfer.
GodlyApe (EUW)
: Riven versus Urgot.
Urgot is one of Riven's counters, so it's not like Urgot is broken. You should be fine so long as you dodge his flip/grab though. Always engage on Urgot when he uses his shield.
Saezio (EUNE)
: When was the last time a DoT effect was introduced to the game?
Dots are generally super unhealthy and you can't convince me otherwise. Nothing is more painful than a point & click Malz E or stepping on a shroom and getting ate alive by Liandry's Torment. Like, the thing with dots is that they're compensated for the sake of being dots, and these compensations are often super obnoxious. Singed's entire kit works to support his poison, and your end result is the creation of one of the most annoying champions. This is kinda true to every dot heavy champ, they're often disliked. Malz, Singed, Teemo, Cass, and Brand.
Warmas (EUW)
: What is the real problem with mages
Mages is a dumb umbrella term. The reality is that the mages who terrorize top lane are outliers among the mages. Their primary issues stem from design, but I won't deny that items(Void Staff ESPECIALLY) play a role. Ryze and Cassio, who both DPS and build relatively unconventionally, and Vlad who, again, builds relatively unconventionally from typical mages and is unique among mages. That aside, bruiser mains need to understand that they're not supposed to be facerolling midlane mages anyways. It often feels like top lane mains are the sorts to think they should be able to hop over Veigar's cage, not get stunned by Annie passive, or whatever else. If you want to kill a mage, just play towards their cooldowns rather than trying to faceroll.
Rioter Comments
HellShot (NA)
: Change Vi ult
I don't like Vi either, but she deserves that ult. Her entire kit is essentially useless if she can't gapclose atop of you, and her Q is super easy to dodge.
Sirsir (NA)
: The Ryze Problem
Ryze's true problem is that interacting with him is impossible unless you have hard CC that's easy to apply or outrange ridiculously hard. Trying to fight Ryze is like trying to catch a squirrel. Odds are you won't catch it, and it'll still scar you if you manage to reach it.
: When is it better to buy sorc shoes over an ap item?
Sorc Shoes when you want to repeatedly kill the enemy and can consistently win trades without the AP. It's a situational snowballing item. Just remember how difficult it is to escape someone with tier2 boots when you have none. You'll have more opportunities to apply DMG to your opponent at the cost of having less DMG, thus you shouldn't trade evenly if you buy these boots. You'd need to be taking one sided trades.
: what you just described is the item is overpowered and not uninteractive. The concept is supposed to have the item be weak against multiple opponents, which makes it interactive. You also didn't address the counter-argument that Zz'rot doesn't require you to be the lane you use it in. You're basically proving my point.
Sanguine Blade is uninteractive in the same sense that ranged tops are uninteractive. Yes, you may or may not be able to approach them and get down a bit of DMG, but the attempt to do so would be punished so hard that you're forced to play passive. Saying Sanguine Blade is interactive is like the equivalent of calling Akali "balanced" if she had a 50% WR. Technically correct yet almost completely wrong.
: I Hate Vayne Top
Vayne top literally doesn't have any form of counterplay outside of junglers. You can't itemize against her, you can't outscale her, and you can't trade into her. Literally no counterplay. The only reason she isn't a candidate for a rework or gutting is because her play rate is trash there.
: What's with Irelia right now?
Irelia has soooo many atrocious matchups that are nearly unplayable, but she can stomp out the matchups where she's not hard-countered. Imo, the biggest hurdle with Irelia isn't her kit specifically BUT how it forces you to play. You have to have decent wave management and snowball if you want any success. You allowed the enemy freeze on you? You're out of the game. Failed to generate a lead? Enjoy as pretty much every other top laner facerolls you 20 minutes into the game. Play her for the playstyle, not the kit. If your primary interest is in stomping out enemies and you're OK with going 0/10 on the path to reach it, then go for it. I personally don't think Irelia is worth learning though.
Smyrage (EUNE)
: He was a bit dull champion to play against as Support, because Tahm support = unkillable ADC. Technically speaking he trades all offensive power for defense and he excels at that. He can't engage, but his kit made sure to punish any engagement on your ADC. He wasn't really interactive champion just like Braum. People didn't like it so they were crying on the forum to increase his offensive power at the cost of defense and they created Tahm top. Now he isn't good anywhere thanks to the buffs and nerfs.
Tahm top didn't actually lose defensive power though. Killing him meant going through multiple healthbars while knowing that he'd kill you if you messed up a single trade.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Has the community overvalued Micro?
No. We can lack in macro while still not overvaluing micro. People like to draw a line between macro and micro, but the reality is that they're a bit tangled together. Macro choices often require you to have a lead, and leads are typically the result of micro. Imo, micro is more valuable. If I had a choice between a team of 5 micro gods or 5 macro gods, I'd take the 5 micro gods because the macro gods are unlikely to find a lead.
IAmToxic77 (EUNE)
: Yall ruined the River King (Tahm Kench)
Support. Tahm going top was just another example of Riot making solo q suffer for pro play. The whole reason was that he created lanes that were omega safe, but what did he do in the top lane? Serve as an unkillable abomination that was also omega safe. The problem was never really addressed, just shafted to solo q from pro play.
: Can you please give me some tips for top?
Push to back, roam, or keep an enemy from recalling. Trade when you have a minion advantage AND/OR can do so without losing CS. Backs are a bit complicated. I think you should back more infrequently when in favorable matchups to keep your opponent in lane and increase your odds of getting that solokill, but the rest varies a LOT and I'm not sure I'm qualified to give any actual advice there.
: Aatrox is mechanically flawed....
I won't deny that Aatrox is currently kneecapped, but his damage is not at all terrible. If you land 1 Q, you should be able to land every other Q too. Beyond the damage, Aatrox's trading pattern is somewhat akin to Renekton's. If either hits you, odds are you won't be able to respond. W and E makes landing Q feasible. Imo, Aatrox's mechanical design is very good in regards to 1v1 BUT broken in regards to Teamfights. If his AoE Q is good enough to smash tanks, bruisers, and juggernuts in the top lane, it's certainly good enough to simultaneously delete MULTIPLE squishes during teamfights.
: What Exactly Makes Kalista So Terrible?
It's because Kalista can't apply damage as easily as most other ADCs. For her to make good trades, she has to be 3 times more mindful than other ADCS. She needs to make heavy usage of minion waves while trading WHILE simultaneously having the least range of any ADC, AAs that only do 90% DMG, the luxury of being hard-countered by slows, AND the ability to miss autoattacks if an enemy leaves vision. The icing on top of this is that Kalista doesn't just force herself to jump through additional hoops, but her support too. Since half of Kalista's kit is dependent on the support, you're also a bit screwed if the two of you aren't on the same page.
: Honestly when that cancer spin to win, brain dead champion going to get nerfed ?
if a garen can rub together two brain cells, even counter matchups become manageable. his passive allows him to take unfavorable trades and come out on top so long as he dials back his aggression.
: Mordekaiser Overtuned?
: You can also split push top with devotion until all the way to the nexus turrets
It's much harder to do for a lone person. A group will take an Inner about as easily as they take an Outer.
Rioter Comments
: So the only champs that take skill should be 50% in high elo? Then explain why the fuck Aatrox got nerfed to the dumpster 3 times in a year despite being balanced for a "high skillplay' champ. Funny how you complain about Garen when Teemo is even worse now that D-shield's regen is weaker to DoT. A good teemo will never let a melee exist in top.
No. Simple champions like Garen don't necessarily have to be beneath 50%. I'm fine with Annie, Morde, and so on having 50%+ winrates. Garen SPECIFICALLY shouldn't be past 50% because his kit consists of nothing more than numbers and running you down. Teemo isn't a bigger problem than Garen, and has a lower WR and playrate than Garen in nearly every elo.
: Yet oddly enough, Riven got buffed for the group of Riven mains that are bad at her animation bugs, which in turn just becomes a good buff for the people good at her because its not an adjustment. Garen got reworked into a good champ finally and thats why he has a high winrate. Thats also why Aatrox was good (he was never really "broken" unless he had his revive, when that got removed he should have never gotten nerfed for Riot's own faults) If Garen's winrate is such a problem to you, ask Riot to fix toplane first, and fixing it doesnt mean give us a solo XP boost. It means fix every single champ and every single matchup, and get rid of champs to other lanes that dont belong there right now and shouldn't belong there (Ryze and Cassio)
Garen has been a GOOD champion in low elo for YEARS now. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/garen/bronze https://imgur.com/a/TDcoAV5 His WR from Bronze+ EVERY other division over the course of YEARS. Often over 52% and rarely dips under 50%. It'd be higher if we could exclude Plat+. Your thoughts just lend into the issues of my post. If Garen is good in high elo, it means you're NOT rewarded for skilled play against him.
: >hypercrisy LOLWUT?
hypocrisy, you'd know what I meant if you read.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Those stats are not lifesteal. They are omnivamp and physical omnivamp. There is a difference. Lifesteal itself has never applied to healing done.
https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalHeal&order=descend&roleSort=ADC The 10 traditional ADCS with the highest healing are: 1. Senna 2. [Kalista](https://lolalytics.com/lol/kalista/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 3. [Jhin](https://lolalytics.com/lol/jhin/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 4. [Vayne](https://lolalytics.com/lol/vayne/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 5. [Kog'Maw](https://lolalytics.com/lol/kogmaw/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 6. [Twitch](https://lolalytics.com/lol/twitch/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 7. [Caitlyn](https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 8. [Lucian](https://lolalytics.com/lol/lucian/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 9. [Varus](https://lolalytics.com/lol/varus/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) 10. [Sivir](https://lolalytics.com/lol/sivir/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked) If we exclude Senna who has innate healing, 6 of 9 of these champions rush Blade of The Ruined King. You know what's interesting? There's only 7 ADCs that rush BoRK nearly every game, so it's not mere chance. Now consider this. There are 3 outliers, right? Jhin, Caitlyn, and Sivir. Guess their most taken primaries? Fleet Footwork for Jhin and Caitlyn. Only 2 ADCs default to Fleet Footwork. Now guess their most common secondaries? Bloodline. No champion that rushes BoRK uses Fleet Footwork NOR Bloodline as default runes, therefore most of their healing is limited to items and supports.
: > [{quoted}](name=R0ses R Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAt2ebi,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-29T22:37:19.169+0000) > > Lifesteal IS tracked by the healing stat. It's why [Riven](https://lolalytics.com/lol/riven/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked)(Death's Dance) has more healing than most top laners and [Katarina](https://lolalytics.com/lol/katarina/?tier=platinum_plus&patch=9.23&mode=ranked)(Gunblade) has more healing than most mid laners DESPITE the fact that neither have innate healing. I know the damage healed isn't right since I sometimes get runes healing more in total than my damage healed stat.
That's a good point. The only thought I currently have on it is that your "damage healed" stat may refer to how much damage "you" yourself recovered through healing. For example, if Soraka had 500 hp out of 1,000 and healed back to full she'd have 500 "damage healed" AND 500 "healed." BUT if she healed an ADC that had 500 out of 1,000 hp to full, it wouldn't count for the damage healed stat. It would still count as 500 "healed" though. What champions do you play when you run across these wonky numbers?
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=R0ses R Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAt2ebi,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-29T23:24:11.659+0000) > > Your attempt to poke a hole in my reasoning is missing a piece. Mages scale with AP. Their abilities would do no damage, thus the vast majority of their damage would come from autos. If their abilities tickle, that means their threat range is actually their AA-range rather than their ability range. This is where ADCs win out, ADCs have higher base attack speed, attack damage, and attack range. > > Senna avoids the pitfall Mages would fall in(abilities doing no damage), because her 1,300 Q and 1,1175 range W scales with her AD. Sure, mages scale with AP... but also have higher base damage normal abilities. They also have better CC, and many even have better mobility. Hell, AD Leblanc is literally a viable master+ champion pick. ADCs also dont have higher base AD. Scaling per level, maybe. They also rarely have higher auto range. Also, again, senna has a literal negative crit mod and as mod. She will literally always do less DPS than any mage with the same items as a result. For all intents and purposes, AD on Ahri is worth more than AD on Senna for a crit build. You really arent getting how massive a drawback these are for ADC Senna damage wise.
> Also, again, senna has a literal negative crit mod and as mod. She will literally always do less DPS than any mage with the same items as a result. For all intents and purposes, AD on Ahri is worth more than AD on Senna for a crit build. Next you're going say a crit build is stronger on Ekko than it is on Senna. You're neglecting how big a role range plays into this. To build crit means to go glass-cannon, and having less range makes it a riskier choice. Off the top of my head, there's three melee champions that usually build into crit. 1 is Yasuo who statistically dies more than ANY other champion, the next is Tryndamere who can literally become undying yet still has a higher death rate than average, and the last is GP who's pseudo-ranged and builds a bit tanky. For the rest, reread what I wrote about Neeko who currently has a 48% WR as an ADC. She once had a 55% WR. It just shows how much of a difference the base stats make. I edited in a bit more and it's interesting how we both mentioned Leblanc.. I agree with you on the usage of CC and mobility though it's often not enough for mages to find success as ADCs.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=R0ses R Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAt2ebi,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-29T22:52:40.416+0000) > > Conjecture doesn't have more worth than raw statistics. I agree with some amount of your points, but I think you're understating her strong points. E: ~~ Yes, Jhin does more damage than Senna~~, but not Draven. Consider the fact that an ADC must first be in a favorable position to AA an enemy without dying. Senna's range itself lends into more favorable positions, thus more opportunities to apply damage. This is partly why poke champions generally top damage charts, they can apply damage more often and easier than others. By this logic, ADC Ahri is far better than senna ever could be. She can apply damage safer and more often. Most mages run AD would be top of the charts.
Your attempt to poke a hole in my reasoning is missing a piece. Mages scale with AP. Their abilities would do no damage, thus the vast majority of their damage would come from autos. If their abilities tickle, that means their threat range is actually their AA-range rather than their ability range. This is where ADCs win out, ADCs have higher base attack speed, attack damage, and attack range. To show you just how right you'd be if that piece wasn't an issue, take a look at Neeko. Before her base attack speed and AD were nerfed, she was one of the strongest ADCs. You should see AD Leblanc though, she's cool. Senna avoids the pitfall Mages would fall in(abilities doing no damage), because her 1,300 range Q and 1,1175 range W scales with her AD.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=R0ses R Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAt2ebi,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-29T22:38:41.443+0000) > > OK, where are your stats? Just look at the kit damage and scaling. Youre physically not going to do more damage with a negative AS modifier, a negative crit modifier, AND lower base damage and scaling on abilities. Its literally impossible. Give senna and draven the same items, and draven will always do more DPS, as well as have higher burst. Senna is most comparable to Jhin, but even Jhin has far higher damage because Senna trades damage for utility. Even then, Jhin has low DPS and is almost entirely burst, which is evident in his difficulty killing front line targets.
Conjecture doesn't have more worth than raw statistics. I agree with some amount of your points, but I think you're understating her strong points. E: ~~ Yes, Jhin does more damage than Senna~~, but not Draven. Consider the fact that an ADC must first be in a favorable position to AA an enemy without dying. Senna's range itself lends into more favorable positions, thus more opportunities to apply damage. This is partly why poke champions generally top damage charts, they can apply damage more often and easier than others.
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R0ses R Red

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