Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 14
I think leblanc could receive a visual update and voice over. Her kit is fun and good and fits her theme. Im loving the new animation cant wait to play her in all of her skins. Also looking forward to the Karma run animation. Hopefully she gets a shield animation and I am a happy karma main.
: Is this meant to happen?
Spell shield is weirdly coded that doesnt make sense. At one point thresh Q would hit you but if you spell shielded you would ignore the cc part of it and damage but thresh could still dash to you. And then riot changed it to where that interaction stopped happening, to where thresh couldnt dash to you. And now I dont know if it still a bug or not but I have seen both scenarios still happen randomly. Then Bard Q on sivir is the same exact thing, block the damage portion but you can still get stunned. Would love it to be more consistent.
: So, Karma's tether root can go through Zhonya's?
It is intended to my knowledge. Most of the time you wont notice these scenarios because very few roots and spells have cc longer than 2.5 seconds of zhonyas but Karma's RW gives about 3.25 seconds of root while zhonyas only gives 2.5 seconds of stasis. For example leblanc's root still goes off if you are in zhonyas but most of the time you wont get rooted because the duration of the root is shorter than the stasis of zhonyas. And yes pretty sure things like kayn or xayah will stop you from being targetable but things damaging you over time are still in effect such as tethers from karma, leblanc, fiddlesticks etc.
: Happy to. I know shield bomb was a pretty big request from a part of the community, so I tried to get a good amount of testing in on it. The mechanic actually tested pretty well - it created more thoughtful usage around the R-E since the target's positioning is more important. However, putting the shield bomb together with the shared shields, either the version we'd ship would be really anemic (since we'd need to tune it appropriately to have both effects on the mantra) and feel bad to play with, or exceed the complexity bar on the spell. So we chose shared shields similar to live in favor of shield bomb, since we believe that's something that current Karma players enjoy about her, and would want to see stay on the kit.
Have you guys tried shield bomb working if Karma cast E shield on herself only and not allies? This would help immensely with diversifying her Mantra's at least for early game solo laners as well as spreading out her damage a bit and wave clear. Example could be when karma shields herself she deals damage in a short 300 aoe (.3 ap ratio with shield base) around her. When karma Mantra shields the damage is increased by .3 ap ratio but also applies a slow (or if you want to make it real useful stops dashes). This will make Karma have meaningful choices on when to RQ RW and RE at all stages of the game especially solo lane but also opens up support options as well.
: RE doesn't interact with her passive, my point was that she can RQ on Q's CD late game with ease.
Karma could already RQ on Q's cooldown late game. It did require her to hold Mantra for a little while if she was not hitting a lot of people. But now it will be super easy. They actually buff Karma's 1v1 potential against unfavorable match ups because now she can easily open up with Mantra Q and have Mantra shield up for their return burst or damage. She can probably now have RE on E cooldown late game.
: Why Karma Is a HORRIBLE Rework
I feel like you guys are little to harsh on the Karma rework. Yes they did not preserve much about the Old Karma but you guys gotta understand. Old Karma was actually garbage. It was fun garbage but it was still garbage LOL . So its really hard to preserve things that just do not really work. Passive - I love Karma's current passive so I may be a little biased but Karma potentially having a 130 ap at level 1 with her old passive was kinda dumb but also her bait with this was kinda gimicky, but to be fair Karma still does bait people with her W. And Karma still can "come back" with her passive because her passive lets her get her Mantra back up again in combat. Q - Karma's current Q "is just a generic skillshot". But in truth Karma's old Q was just a generic cone that did not do much. Karma's old Q had ok damage and that was it. And then you guys might respond with but "Karma's old Q could heal when mantra'd so its unique" by that logic Karma's new Q is just as unique because it leave behind an aoe damage explosion (I know Poppy also has it now but for a while Karma was the only one with this). Legit Karma's new Q is just plain out better for her mid, top or support. Karma's old Q was not really good in mid or bot because it requires her to get really close to land it. And the heal was not too noticeable. W - I do agree that Karma's W is a little generic but it just works and flows so well with her kit that I am ok with it being generic. Karma's kit is all about kiting back and getting multiple Mantra Qs off. Karma's W let her kite back and set up her Mantra Q. Karma's old W was honestly really bad and really required her enemies to miss position for you to land or your allies knowing how to position with it to land. Not to mention you almost never Mantra W this ability with old Karma. E - Her old Shield bomb was fun but honestly there was a lot of problems with it. It was bad for support because it was the main harass tool but if you used it to harass you took minions from your adc. If you used it mid to harass you probably Mantra shielded a minion and then that would lead you to be open for 10 seconds and assassin would just kill you in those 10 seconds its down. Not to mention it was really unhealthy to shield a minion from long range and nuke someone. While I do miss shield bomb it would be a unhealthy ability to have it max 1st. I also feel that the shield bomb with the new Karma was also a little lack luster because it was just so useless early on. R - Mantra having no charges allowed Karma's mantra'd abilities to feel stronger Mantra'd. Before with the charge system the only one that felt strong was Mantra shield. Mantra Q or W never felt really good with old Karma. Also im pretty sure Heimerdinger's ult is a copy of Karma's ult. Not the other way around. You say Karma now only Mantra's one ability depending on which lane she is in. But honestly that is not true. It has never been that way. Karma mid and Karma support use all her Mantra's. Tank Karma top uses all of her Mantra's too but honestly tank Karma top is garbage and only works because players at lower elo do not buy executioners calling. But going regular ap Karma top uses all her abilities. Karma has a definite point to use Mantra Q and a definite point to use Mantra W in all her lanes, at any point in the game. The only one that is used almost not at all early is Mantra Shield because Mantra shield is to dependent on grouping with allies to really make use of it and that does not happen early. And when Mantra shield did have damage on it with the new Karma well it still was not really used early game. With all that being said we both want Karma to be better than what she currently is. WE both love Karma and played her since her she was reworked. We both want her shield bomb back too I bet. And we both want all her Mantra's to be used in every lane at all points in the game. (I just think its unfair to say that current Karma only uses one Mantra ability depending on what lane she is in). (I wrote this kinda in a hurry because I have homework to do so there is probably a lot of typos and I may come off mean but I am not, I swear!! :D)
REDREX7 (NA)
: > Cool, I enjoy Taric a lot too xD. Veigar absolutely counters Karma, he's actually nightmare lane for me lol. Viktor is a skill match up, but he has a lot more damage and cc potential. Its funny because I used to think: "omg Ahri is so op", "she waveclears with just 1 spell", "omg such mobility, much safety" etc... until I actually tried her myself and realised she wasn't what I thought, and the people who made her seem that way to me were just really good. STOP STOP HOLD UP. Veigar does not counter Karma? Wut. I win lane 70% of the time, and even 1v1 later on I still win. Viktor is a skill match up I agree. But I remember when Viktor was meta and he was in every game and so I played against him so much, all of a sudden I learned what he did and started winning nearly all the Karma, Viktor match ups. But not anymore lol. When I see Viktor mid, vs my Karma now, I am a little weary. And Ahri vs Karma is also a skill match up but I tend to win the match up more of the time than not. > I definitely recommend trying any champ you struggle against, if for no other reason than to figure out their weaknesses and how to exploit them. This is true. Most of the time all you need to do is figure out champion cooldowns and then you figure out the match up. > This I actually agree with, that's why I advocate spreading damage throughout Karma's kit so that it isn't all focused into her RQ. You still keep telling me that even with a telegraph/delay/travel time that shield bomb is unhealthy and unfair lol. Please spread out damage on Karma's kit but Mantra Q should still be the most damaging ability on her kit, In my eyes its like RQ does 100% of the max damage Karma can do, RW 50%, RE 75% but only because it adds another damaging spell to her kit, not necessarily because it out scales RW.
> I've beaten many Veigars too, but it doesn't change the fact that Veigar's kit is good at dealing with Karma. You have to really know what you're doing and press him super hard early to win against him. Otherwise he'll just farm up and fuck up you and your team. Veigar's kit is not super good at dealing with Karma. In fact I would say the opposite that Karma's kit is super good at dealing with Veigar. Karma Q has the same scaling as Veigar's, a slow and small explosion radius so he cant hide behind minions. Karma's W has nearly the same scaling as Veigar's W, while being point and click and not being dodgeable. Karma's E lets her reposition easily, therefore she is able to get out of his box or dodge things while inside his box event horizon, while also being able to absorb most of his R damage if your Mantra shield. Mantra Q out scales Veigars R damage too. Karma basically lane bullies Veigar while scaling nearly as hard or harder. The only thing Veigar gots is that if Karma plays up she is prone to ganks and having to blow flash to escape the box. Karma can play this match up two ways, either up close and personal with banshees, so Veigar never land his event horizon or far away with Mantra Q, as Mantra Q out ranges all of his abilities while having a low cool down.
: > For her RE into RQ, I'm not sure how many ticks her W has but I was under the assumption that you could take at least 10 seconds off of R + auto attack reductions and then have a parting shot RQ as the trade ends. Impossible. In lane gets 2s off her Mantra for landing a spell, and 1 second for autos. Her Mantra starts off at a 45s CD, the max CD refund W + an AA can get you is 5 seconds since W only damages on cast then 2s later on the root. Late game with 45% CD Mantra on like a 20-ish second CD and her CD refund scales to 3s for spells and 1.5s for autos. So even late game the max refund you get from that combo is 7.5s, which isn't enough to buy back R for RQ. > If she E's toward her laner, she does have at least 40% bonus MS which is about 120 extra MS give or take with a base of 335 MS to attempt to dodge said CC which isn't particularly hard at 430+ MS. If she runs at you she's likely running around minions making her movements predictable, but if she still dodges your E that's just being outplayed. Bare in mind that ms boost is 1.5s, if you're using range effectively she can't really threaten you. > And at 6, Ahri simply doesn't have the damage to 100-0 a Karma if she has any competency at using her E/RE. I can only recall one game where I "just killed Karma". You can poke her down from behind your minions, she can't. You can easily 1v1 her if you're able to land your skillshots. If she's dumb enough to use RE instead of RW when you engage her, then you definitely shouldn't be losing to her. She's just given up almost all her damage and her sustain for a slightly better shield... She's literally a toothless tiger at that point. And even if she does use RW, you can use a charge of your ult to break her tether, thus cancelling the rest of her heal and damage, then re-engage her to either kill her or send her back. Its almost like Ahri's kit is made to counter Karma, you have much more combat flexibility to exploit her weaknesses. > Yea, I don't have fun playing most champions. I have like, 5 champions I enjoy playing and still rather play Ahri most of the time. (Taric, Garen, Veigar, and a little Viktor but I haven't touched him in ages for reference). Cool, I enjoy Taric a lot too xD. Veigar absolutely counters Karma, he's actually nightmare lane for me lol. Viktor is a skill match up, but he has a lot more damage and cc potential. Its funny because I used to think: "omg Ahri is so op", "she waveclears with just 1 spell", "omg such mobility, much safety" etc... until I actually tried her myself and realised she wasn't what I thought, and the people who made her seem that way to me were just really good. I definitely recommend trying any champ you struggle against, if for no other reason than to figure out their weaknesses and how to exploit them. > This is compounded into champions like Karma and Zilean where they have almost all their damage (or all in Zilean's case) packed into one ability. It makes then incrediblypunishing to be hit by and have such a low risk high reward paradigm because the Mana cost is low and the CD is low enough. This I actually agree with, that's why I advocate spreading damage throughout Karma's kit so that it isn't all focused into her RQ. You still keep telling me that even with a telegraph/delay/travel time that shield bomb is unhealthy and unfair lol.
> Cool, I enjoy Taric a lot too xD. Veigar absolutely counters Karma, he's actually nightmare lane for me lol. Viktor is a skill match up, but he has a lot more damage and cc potential. Its funny because I used to think: "omg Ahri is so op", "she waveclears with just 1 spell", "omg such mobility, much safety" etc... until I actually tried her myself and realised she wasn't what I thought, and the people who made her seem that way to me were just really good. STOP STOP HOLD UP. Veigar does not counter Karma? Wut. I win lane 70% of the time, and even 1v1 later on I still win. Viktor is a skill match up I agree. But I remember when Viktor was meta and he was in every game and so I played against him so much, all of a sudden I learned what he did and started winning nearly all the Karma, Viktor match ups. But not anymore lol. When I see Viktor mid, vs my Karma now, I am a little weary. And Ahri vs Karma is also a skill match up but I tend to win the match up more of the time than not. > I definitely recommend trying any champ you struggle against, if for no other reason than to figure out their weaknesses and how to exploit them. This is true. Most of the time all you need to do is figure out champion cooldowns and then you figure out the match up. > This I actually agree with, that's why I advocate spreading damage throughout Karma's kit so that it isn't all focused into her RQ. You still keep telling me that even with a telegraph/delay/travel time that shield bomb is unhealthy and unfair lol. Please spread out damage on Karma's kit but Mantra Q should still be the most damaging ability on her kit, In my eyes its like RQ does 100% of the max damage Karma can do, RW 50%, RE 75% but only because it adds another damaging spell to her kit, not necessarily because it out scales RW.
: > Now if we did not give shield bomb to her basic shield, then I also thought about a new effect for W. Where if she successfully rooted a target her next auto attack would deal X amount of ap damage and would not be halved for gathering fire.  I think giving Karma an empowered AA has potential actually. I vaguely recall discussing this with you before and showing you an example of an AA passive that could possibly work for her. Adding on the end of her W could work, but runs the risk of making her basic W seem overloaded. > I just do not feel 2 seconds is long enough to justify it damaging enemies that pass through it and stop their dashes. It isn't long enough to set up and hunt enemies down with like her old tether, but it is sufficient to attach to a melee in a team fight and tag a few enemies. It would be more about the positioning of you and your target ally to your enemies when trying to get the most out of it. Similar principle to the shieldbomb. The fact that the duration is short could justify a brief root instead of just a slow. But I think you have a good point about the cancelling dashes. Your idea for something like that on RE is probably better.
> I think giving Karma an empowered AA has potential actually. I vaguely recall discussing this with you before and showing you an example of an AA passive that could possibly work for her. Adding on the end of her W could work, but runs the risk of making her basic W seem overloaded. I do not mind make W a little bit over loaded because its the one part of her kit that requires her to get close. Yeah I would love empowered auto attacks for Karma somewhere in her kit because it makes her come together more and gives her a reason to use her auto attacks. Like Orianna has better auto attacks even though she never uses them. > It isn't long enough to set up and hunt enemies down with like her old tether, but it is sufficient to attach to a melee in a team fight and tag a few enemies. It would be more about the positioning of you and your target ally to your enemies when trying to get the most out of it. Similar principle to the shieldbomb. > The fact that the duration is short could justify a brief root instead of just a slow. But I think you have a good point about the cancelling dashes. Your idea for something like that on RE is probably better. Yeah W tether on a melee ally does open up some possible plays. I could see it working and it does make karma less of a traditional support and more of mid laner or top laner who can function with a melee jungler ganks and what not. A brief root would justify a two second duration. And yay you like my idea! LOL
: > That is true. But it is also true Karma lacks multiple damage sources. To me when I play Karma it makes me sad sometimes to only have a Q and W as damage sources. I tend to agree, it feels limiting. That's why I was annoyed when W lost a tick, it made her damage feel even more inconsistent. But I think basic E dealing damage kinda the novelty out of the Mantra'd E. I'd rather see RE with higher early damage so it could be a viable combo with her Q and W. > I would not be. This is why im always afraid to have RW or W have an ally effect because it make make her weaker solo when Riot balances it. But with the right cost equal power could be put into both the ally and enemy versions of the spell. For example: enemy RW gives bonus damage and self heal with **guaranteed** passive procs. Ally RW gives them the heal, with the possibility of dealing 50% damage to enemies who touch the tether, no **guaranteed** passive procs. Both instances have their pros and cons depending on the situation, and choosing the wrong one has a meaningful cost.
> I tend to agree, it feels limiting. That's why I was annoyed when W lost a tick, it made her damage feel even more inconsistent. But I think basic E dealing damage kinda the novelty out of the Mantra'd E. I'd rather see RE with higher early damage so it could be a viable combo with her Q and W. Losing the tick did feel bad. But I do not mind it because it made sense and matched other tether abilities. Damage initially and more damage once the root took effect. Now if we did not give shield bomb to her basic shield, then I also thought about a new effect for W. Where if she successfully rooted a target her next auto attack would deal X amount of ap damage and would not be halved for gathering fire. Basically giving her back her tick lost in an auto attack. And then to make it more unique Karma could shield her ally and give her ally the empowered auto attack as well. Do not know if it is necessary to have this effect as well but it is unique. (Over the years I have had a lot of ideas of what Riot could do with Karma LOL). > But with the right cost equal power could be put into both the ally and enemy versions of the spell. For example: enemy RW gives bonus damage and self heal with **guaranteed** passive procs. > Ally RW gives them the heal, with the possibility of dealing 50% damage to enemies who touch the tether, no **guaranteed** passive procs. > Both instances have their pros and cons depending on the situation, and choosing the wrong one has a meaningful cost. I guess you are right. Your idea would not need to nerf Karma's solo potential. I just do not feel 2 seconds is long enough to justify it damaging enemies that pass through it and stop their dashes. Like it is an added effect that you would probably never notice because the root duration is so short. That power could be somewhere else on Karma's kit. But maybe if Karma had massively increased movement speed or her ally did to make it work within 2 seconds, like if you could cover a lot of ground within those two seconds then I think it would be noticeable.
: > What if Karma could shield bomb on her regular shield?  The only reason I'm opposed to this idea is because I feel as if her Mantras should always be adding different effrcts to the base ability. I think her Mantras should always feel like new abilities. > Well I had to multiple instances of canceling Lucian ult with tether. Maybe it was fixed long ago. Anyway I was bringing this up because if mantra shield could cancel channeled abilities than I would not want Karma to cancel them with her tether as well. That's really strange, never seen that before. > I would have RW when cast on an ally, heal Karma for 50% the damage her allied did and heal Karma's targeted ally for 75% the damage Karma dealt. I dont know if I get the values right but that is my initial thought on the values. Since Karma has less ways to heal her ally off her abilities. Now this could only work at the expense of her normal enemy RW. I think as an idea it's okay, but would you be okay with giving up RWs 1v1 potential in favor of this? I usually try to preserve RWs 1v1 potential, so I tend to give the ally RW the trade off that Karma gives up her own heal and unless her tether damages an enemy she doesn't proc her passive. > Or maybe just split the heal between them at all times based on what damage they did. So Karma and her allied get healed by 25% based on the damage they dealt, regardless who dealt the damage. But if Karma takes damage her ally gets increased damage by 5%-15% based on level and then if her ally takes damage Karma's damage is increased by 5%-15%. Again numbers are just idea at the top of my head. This idea heavily influenced by Mercy from Overwatch lol. Lol Mercy sounds more Karmic than Karma.
> The only reason I'm opposed to this idea is because I feel as if her Mantras should always be adding different effrcts to the base ability. I think her Mantras should always feel like new abilities. That is true. But it is also true Karma lacks multiple damage sources. To me when I play Karma it makes me sad sometimes to only have a Q and W as damage sources. Opening up E as a damage source also helps spread out her damage and make her more versatile. Maybe AOE shield and movement speed is enough to make it feel different? > Now this could only work at the expense of her normal enemy RW. I think as an idea it's okay, but would you be okay with giving up RWs 1v1 potential in favor of this? I would not be. This is why im always afraid to have RW or W have an ally effect because it make make her weaker solo when Riot balances it.
: > While a delayed shield bomb would work, it would probably push her closer to Ivern. Can you imagine Karma and Ivern shielding the same target and both shield bombs detonated at the same time. LOL. Yeah that probably would look funny lol. I don't think overlap with Ivern would be an issue though, it would still be kind of opposite; single target shield exploding into AoE slow + damage vs single target shield exploding into AoE Shield/MS boost + damage. Karma's would have much more of an ult feel. > I suppose it could also stop channel effects as well. It would make her stronger against Katarina and Velkoz both of which I have had trouble with in higher elo. But does Karma's W root stop channels too? I know for a while Karma's W root could stop Lucian R culling and Summoner Spell teleport. BUT at some point it stopped canceling both. Maybe it was just a bug I have had occur multiple times. Do roots in general stop channel effects? I just think if RE could cancel dashes, it would make sense if it disrupted channels because it's an instant cast and not a persistent effect. Roots don't disrupt channels though, or at least don't think they're supposed to. If the dash cancel were to be on her tether I don't think it would make sense for it to disrupt channels because it's a persistent effect for at least few seconds. That Lucian interaction sounds like a bug or maybe he cancelled the channel himself. >  If Karma W her ally the cooldown would increase to 15 seconds but have an extra 3 second duration on her ally. So then Karma could have RW on her ally have a 5 second duration and the cooldown by roughly the same when you consider how long the tether last. (Note the cooldown of Karmas tether starts when Karma casts it, not when the effect is over). When I posted my RW suggestion I left it at 2 seconds because I kept the healing function the same for the ally, if it lasted 5 seconds what would the effect would you give it to last that duration?
> Yeah that probably would look funny lol. I don't think overlap with Ivern would be an issue though, it would still be kind of opposite; single target shield exploding into AoE slow + damage vs single target shield exploding into AoE Shield/MS boost + damage. Karma's would have much more of an ult feel. Yeah your right there is enough differences to justify that. What if Karma could shield bomb on her regular shield? I had this idea for a while. Where the movement speed duration would be increase to 2 seconds and then after 2 seconds the shield exploded and dealt damage. Probably would nerf the shield scaling to .4 ap and the damage would probably scale with .4 ap. And then if Karma mantra shield the damage would be instant, shield scaling and damage would double so .8 ap in total for damage and shield value. Maybe it can still cancel dashes though, maybe over tuned if it did. Maybe the movement speed would only apply for the person Karma mainly shields if it is overpowered. > I just think if RE could cancel dashes, it would make sense if it disrupted channels because it's an instant cast and not a persistent effect. That is true. Sounds good enough to me to cancel channel effects. > Roots don't disrupt channels though, or at least don't think they're supposed to. If the dash cancel were to be on her tether I don't think it would make sense for it to disrupt channels because it's a persistent effect for at least few seconds. That Lucian interaction sounds like a bug or maybe he cancelled the channel himself. Well I had to multiple instances of canceling Lucian ult with tether. Maybe it was fixed long ago. Anyway I was bringing this up because if mantra shield could cancel channeled abilities than I would not want Karma to cancel them with her tether as well. > When I posted my RW suggestion I left it at 2 seconds because I kept the healing function the same for the ally, if it lasted 5 seconds what would the effect would you give it to last that duration? Well I love an aggressive Karma and I love things that reward you for being aggressive. Here are my ideas. I would have RW when cast on an ally, heal Karma for 50% the damage her allied did and heal Karma's targeted ally for 75% the damage Karma dealt. I dont know if I get the values right but that is my initial thought on the values. Since Karma has less ways to heal her ally off her abilities. Or maybe just split the heal between them at all times based on what damage they did. So Karma and her allied get healed by 25% based on the damage they dealt, regardless who dealt the damage. But if Karma takes damage her ally gets increased damage by 5%-15% based on level and then if her ally takes damage Karma's damage is increased by 5%-15%. Again numbers are just idea at the top of my head. This idea heavily influenced by Mercy from Overwatch lol.
: > Alright we can agree it was not perfect but better than what it currently is. I legit remember playing Karma with the old shield bomb and never using Mantra E for the first 20 minutes unless I was support. It just did not have a good enough use in lane. I know there was a bunch of gimicky tricks you could do with it but the vast majority of the time you did not really use it till later on. Maybe to help wave clear early but even then since the damage was so abysmal early I doubt it helped. Yeah you're right, I only used it on occasion in lane for waveclear or more ms to escape a gank. The early damage was shit, but if were just a matter of damage another way of addressing it would be to give a brief delay and telegraph for the AoE portion of the spell and let shieldbomb scale from 100 base instead of just 60? > Again I am talking about Karma in 1v1 situations. I know it gave 60% at all ranks then but lets be real, 60% to 40% movement speed in 1.5 seconds is probably 2 teemo lengths. I am not sure on the math, do not quote me on this. Lol fair enough. >  If shield bomb had an extra effect like my idea that stops dashes... it would be useful at all points in the game. Oh Rengar is about to bush jump to you, Mantra Shield and you stop his jump, Fizz is about to kill you with Urchen Strike Mantra Shield stops the dash, Leblanc is about distortion away and escape, flash mantra shield to stop her, Ezreal trying to Arcane shield away? Flash Mantra Shield. Now Mantra shield has such a good effect at all points in the game. I like that it offers solid skill expression, would you have it disrupt channels too? Because it seems like maybe it should. Your examples do paint a fun picture. > Karma's current tether is not long enough or has a long enough duration to make that work. Not necessarily, it would depend how it's done. I once made a proposal where the ally casted RW healed the target, but enemies who passed through the tether took damage and were briefly slowed. I think even with a 2 duration having a dash cancelling condition on the tether wouldn't be out of place. Or do you still feel it wouldn't work?
> Yeah you're right, I only used it on occasion in lane for waveclear or more ms to escape a gank. The early damage was shit, but if were just a matter of damage another way of addressing it would be to give a brief delay and telegraph for the AoE portion of the spell and let shieldbomb scale from 100 base instead of just 60? While a delayed shield bomb would work, it would probably push her closer to Ivern. Can you imagine Karma and Ivern shielding the same target and both shield bombs detonated at the same time. LOL. > I like that it offers solid skill expression, would you have it disrupt channels too? Because it seems like maybe it should. Your examples do paint a fun picture. I suppose it could also stop channel effects as well. It would make her stronger against Katarina and Velkoz both of which I have had trouble with in higher elo. But does Karma's W root stop channels too? I know for a while Karma's W root could stop Lucian R culling and Summoner Spell teleport. BUT at some point it stopped canceling both. Maybe it was just a bug I have had occur multiple times. Do roots in general stop channel effects? > Not necessarily, it would depend how it's done. I once made a proposal where the ally casted RW healed the target, but enemies who passed through the tether took damage and were briefly slowed. I think even with a 2 duration having a dash cancelling condition on the tether wouldn't be out of place. Or do you still feel it wouldn't work? I like the idea of Karma having the ability to W or RW her allies but I am afraid if riot did that they would nerf her solo potential. I could be wrong though. With that being said I feel two seconds is still to short for the damage portion or dash cancelling portion to have an effect or matter really. BUT what you could do is have W have a different cooldown depending on if it was used on an ally or enemy. If Karma W an enemy it would have a 12 second cooldown. If Karma W her ally the cooldown would increase to 15 seconds but have an extra 3 second duration on her ally. So then Karma could have RW on her ally have a 5 second duration and the cooldown by roughly the same when you consider how long the tether last. (Note the cooldown of Karmas tether starts when Karma casts it, not when the effect is over).
Meddler (NA)
: I'm personally cautious about some champs who are decent duelists who often split push. There are a couple of runes we haven't revealed yet, one of which gives good dueling power, the other of which helps with tower taking as melee. Probably ok, hence the plan to release those runes without changes to champs like Jax, Trynd, Darius etc, definitely going to want to watch those cases in particular though. Would disagree that Lux gets 40% free CDR right away. Ultimore and Overcharger could get you to 30% eventually, and in some cirucmstances that'll stack with refund on kill on the ult certainly. It'll take a while though and there's a cost in there (you're giving up two rune slots that could be offering other significant power).
How do you feel about Karma with Ultimore? I as a Karma main, with how Ultimore stands right now, I could probably get the stacks done in 10 minutes. And in about 15- 20 minutes have 40% (or 45% cdr if the current intellgence mastery finds away to the new runes), which means Mantra would have a 60% cdr. This would mean I could Press R, wait 7 seconds, find a good Mantra Q walk up W or auto attack once, and have Mantra Q up again. Karma can already do this combo without Ultimore it just require her to land her W fully and auto. If you guys do not address it now I can confirm Karma will Mantra Q twice in 2.75 seconds without ever having to get close and personal.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 8
Hey Meddler is it at all possible for these items to work only on the targeted enemy, allied shields only. For example lets say you create an ad assassin item that is anti shield, and Zed uses that item on Karma mid, now if Karma Mantra Shielded her self her shield would not be affected by the item. BUT if Ivern or Janna came to aide with a shield to the Karma then those shields would have the effect of the anti shield. I feel like its an unjust nerf to mid laners and other tanks with shields such as. Any champ that shields themselves should not be affected by this item but if they shield others then they should be affected if that makes sense.
: > I do think Karma's shield bomb was healthier than the mega shield. HOWEVER there was still problems with shield bomb that made it kinda suck. The damage was not impressive enough nor would the shield value save you from sticky situations. Yeah it wasn't perfect, but it was definitely much better. The damage didn't need to be "impressive" because it gave a **decent** (read reasonable) AoE shield at the same time. It was the best spell for clumpy team fights, especially when you got enough passive procs for an RQ to follow shortly after. I think if Karma had been left alone in 5.10 people would have utilised the nuances in her kit a lot better today. Also, it did save people in sticky situations, it just depends on the particular situation in question. Remember it used to give 60% ms boost to boot back then, that was very useful. > With shield bomb there was never really a scenario where you would use it over Mantra Q or Mantra W, as Mantra Q had more damage and Mantra W had more self saving. Not true, clumpy team fights. Made her a good pick with and against all in comps, and synergised well with melee carries. The early damage was abysmal though, so I do agree it wasn't great in lane. > If they were to bring back shield bomb (which I want them to, over mega shield) there would need some new utility to make it super useful at all points in the game. Such as Mantra Shield on cast would stop all enemy dashes and blinks, and it would only stop dashes and blinks the instant you press it, not the duration of the shield value. What do you think Iceborn KIng? Yeah I think would be cool if it was a mega shield on cast if it decayed, but I'm not sure if it would work to stop dashes and blinks. Sounds like cool skill expression if it could work though. Would probably make more sense if her tether cancelled dashes passing through it, since it's a bit more visible.
> Yeah it wasn't perfect, but it was definitely much better. The damage didn't need to be "impressive" because it gave a **decent** (read reasonable) AoE shield at the same time. It was the best spell for clumpy team fights, especially when you got enough passive procs for an RQ to follow shortly after. I think if Karma had been left alone in 5.10 people would have utilised the nuances in her kit a lot better today. Alright we can agree it was not perfect but better than what it currently is. I legit remember playing Karma with the old shield bomb and never using Mantra E for the first 20 minutes unless I was support. It just did not have a good enough use in lane. I know there was a bunch of gimicky tricks you could do with it but the vast majority of the time you did not really use it till later on. Maybe to help wave clear early but even then since the damage was so abysmal early I doubt it helped. > Also, it did save people in sticky situations, it just depends on the particular situation in question. Remember it used to give 60% ms boost to boot back then, that was very useful. Again I am talking about Karma in 1v1 situations. I know it gave 60% at all ranks then but lets be real, 60% to 40% movement speed in 1.5 seconds is probably 2 teemo lengths. I am not sure on the math, do not quote me on this. > Not true, clumpy team fights. Made her a good pick with and against all in comps, and synergised well with melee carries. The early damage was abysmal though, so I do agree it wasn't great in lane. So there is literally one scenario where it has a better use and its probably 25 minutes in the game. If shield bomb had an extra effect like my idea that stops dashes... it would be useful at all points in the game. Oh Rengar is about to bush jump to you, Mantra Shield and you stop his jump, Fizz is about to kill you with Urchen Strike Mantra Shield stops the dash, Leblanc is about distortion away and escape, flash mantra shield to stop her, Ezreal trying to Arcane shield away? Flash Mantra Shield. Now Mantra shield has such a good effect at all points in the game. Now players have a reason to use all of Karma's mantra'd abilities at every point in the game. This would increase her skill cap, have counter play, and make her a better mid/support. This is literally poppy W, Steadfast Presence, on Karma's Mantra Shield while having a shorter duration but dealing damage and shielding. > Yeah I think would be cool if it was a mega shield on cast if it decayed, but I'm not sure if it would work to stop dashes and blinks. Sounds like cool skill expression if it could work though. Would probably make more sense if her tether cancelled dashes passing through it, since it's a bit more visible. Karma's current tether is not long enough or has a long enough duration to make that work.
YuGiHo (NA)
: Shield bomb was good when karma was allowed to shield minions.
Even then it was not even that good. It was situational and unique yes, but most of the time in lane it was not that good. Sure you could get free damage but you could also get free damage from mantra Q at the same range, while still having your shield up if they decide to engage on you.
: PSA: Karma was at her healthiest when Mantra E dealt damage
I do think Karma's shield bomb was healthier than the mega shield. HOWEVER there was still problems with shield bomb that made it kinda suck. The damage was not impressive enough nor would the shield value save you from sticky situations. At least with the mega shield value change it would save you more often in sticky situations. With shield bomb there was never really a scenario where you would use it over Mantra Q or Mantra W, as Mantra Q had more damage and Mantra W had more self saving. I remember reading that a lot of players including myself, saying that Mantra E shield bomb was a little lack luster because it needed levels and AP to do damage or shield. Mantra Q always felt good because Q is maxed and there was solid damage and a decent slow. Mantra W felt good always because it had decent damage and 40% missing hp healing is always good when your low. And then there was Mantra E... which you needed to be around allies to make it really useful, and you needed levels and AP to have good damage and good shield values. So it was only really useful later in the game and not so much in the laning phase. If they were to bring back shield bomb (which I want them to, over mega shield) there would need some new utility to make it super useful at all points in the game. Such as Mantra Shield on cast would stop all enemy dashes and blinks, and it would only stop dashes and blinks the instant you press it, not the duration of the shield value. What do you think Iceborn KIng?
Nahui (NA)
: What if shields...
No they would not get fucked because if Karma, Orianna, Lux used their shields on themselves then it does not effect them 1v1ing the assassins. Say for instance Zed used the item on mid lane Karma, well mid lane Karma can mega shield herself and the value not be nerfed, but if Soraka ulted Karma and Zed had used the item on Karma then Soraka's ult heal would be halfed for Karma. Well introduce an AD and AP version of the item I talked about. Legit champs with both a heal and shields would be doubly hit by grievous wounds, making them extremely useless. Not to mention grievous wounds is already bought in every game. So these champ would have there kits nerfed in every game. Karma, Janna, Rakan, Taric, Sona all get doubly nerfed by a single item because it affects both their heals and shields. Imagine if Malzahar, Skarner, ultimate was negated every time because items built by champs every single game all of a sudden had quick silver sash added to them. That is basically what you are doing when you add it to grievous wounds.
Nahui (NA)
: What if shields...
What if there was an item with an active effect that halfed enemy allies shield values effect for X amount of seconds? So sneaky assassins can use it before the supports even have time to react? And that way Karma, Orianna, Lux are not fucked when they go mid vs assassins with said items.
: thats the thing , if you max her W, you need her to be in range. Imagine if you enemy is a Talon or Anivia, would you risk to be in battle range with them? Artillery mage should have long range , her W is too short for a follow up. And if used properly Karma can do double RQ however it is very dangerous to do it because it becomes a kamikaze. Which drags us to the original question, does Riot want her to be a long range artillery ala Lux who can snipe RQ from afar or does she need to be a battle mage that utilizes both Q and W that requires her to be in range. And going Morello Luden maxing QW (ur E will be too weak to negate any incoming damage, and her RQ+ W damage are also ''delayed'') is too dangerous for an artillery burst mage. I wasnt saying she has crap damage, she indeed has good ratio on her RQ but to land that RQ is very difficult especially when enemies start to group up. If you max W, how are you going to use it? AFAIK even Karma mains who play ehr only mid do share my opinion about her state now (for example Midnight Karma on the Karma subreddit) and he has 1.3 million mastery points. I play her mostly support Karma and tank Karma and occasionally mid Karma and I do understand the problem. tldr; its not that her damage is crap, its getting her to do damage as an artillery burst mage with Q/W/R combo is too risky and that maxing E second is the best option in general which in turn reduces her damage greatly. And seeing Riot has also mentioned they dont like Karma to be a battle mage which would be great for QWE Karma, I dont think QWE max (higher damage, higher risk, higher reward) will ever be better than QEW max
Maxing W second lets you land Mantra Q 100% of the time when you root them. Clearly maxing W second is just as good an option as maxing E second because I have gotten to masters with maxing W second a majority of my games. I am a Karma one trick that loves Karma. Midnight Karma may have more mastery points but I got a bigger di... I mean I have more elo :). <3 When you Max W on Karma you have more options to land your Mantra Q. And you use your E to dodge.
: Can we talk about Karma as a champ (gameplay, itemization, competitive) and her identity ?
Karma does incredible damage. You guys complain Karma does not deal enough damage to be considered a burst mage. She has incredible damage if you guys would actually max W second. Not to mention Karma should be rushing 45% cdr so she can Mantra Q twice on the same target in 2.75 seconds. The combo is to hold R for 7 seconds, Mantra Q, E yourself to land your W and some autos then Mantra Q again. Karma is a better version of Lux because Karma has a lower cd on her burst and has more survive ability. Karma has a low win rate mid because people build support items on her mid and wonder why they cant compete in terms of damage. Karma is in a league with Lux and Orianna as it is but players are not building these ap items mid. They keep building ardent sensor or athenes. With that being said I agree Karma can use some changes to give her another damaging ability somewhere on her kit. She just needs one more damaging ability and she is golden.
: Crying for Janna nerfs, hurricane in Texas...
The mayor of Houston should worry about his or her job though. The mayor told people not to evacuate Houston but the Governor of Texas did... Well let us just say some people are living in their attics waiting to be evacuated. Some people slept on top of their cars... And more rain is expected. Thankfully I do not live near the river or live in a place where it floods.
: > [{quoted}](name=REDREX7,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5Gs94AQm,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-08-27T09:24:23.158+0000) > > there is no correlation between climate change and hurricanes. Wrong. Climate change aggravates extreme weather, including hurricanes. Warming especially gives rise to ideal conditions for such.
Hurricanes have been hitting Texas and the gulf coast way before global warming became a thing. It has been nearly 10 years since Texas was hit by a hurricane. We were going to get hit by a hurricane regardless of global warming. Yes climate change is real but it is not the cause of this hurricane. Yes there is a correlation between hurricanes and climate change. But 10 years is a long time to go without a hurricane.
: > [{quoted}](name=REDREX7,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5Gs94AQm,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-08-27T09:24:23.158+0000) > > Hurricanes have been a natural phenomenon way before coal mines were a thing. Not saying climate change is not real but there is no correlation between climate change and hurricanes. Yes I can confirm the cities of Houston and San Antonio, both of which will be receiving record level flooding, all voted for Donald Trump (They did not but I do not know if you can understand sarcasm). It shows what kind of person you are to mock a situation where people are dying and homes are being destroyed. Who would want to be European when they have to share a continent with you? I would call all Europeans idiots but I would hate for the rotten apple you are to spoil the bunch. While you're wrong about no correlation, you have a very good point...
What I mean is that we were going to get hit by a hurricane Harvey regardless of increase in temperatures. There have been Hurricanes hitting the gulf coast since forever. Climate change is not the reason Hurricane Harvey hit. Maybe it caused it to be stronger, maybe it did not. This is the first hurricane to hit Texas since Hurricane Ike which was in 2008, nearly a decade ago. I believe climate change is indeed a real event occurring but its not the reason Hurricane Harvey existed or hit Texas. 10 years is a long time for a hurricane not to hit Texas.
: It's what ya get when you're one of the biggest polluters in the world and elected a president who wants to reopen coal mines. The US will be seeing a lot more extreme weather conditions in the coming years. Idk why anyone would even want to be an American when it's the purest capitalist state on earth. Just look at the wealth distribution. Lmao. I call karma, though I do not mean to spot individuals.
Hurricanes have been a natural phenomenon way before coal mines were a thing. Not saying climate change is not real but there is no correlation between climate change and hurricanes. Yes I can confirm the cities of Houston and San Antonio, both of which will be receiving record level flooding, all voted for Donald Trump (They did not but I do not know if you can understand sarcasm). It shows what kind of person you are to mock a situation where people are dying and homes are being destroyed. Who would want to be European when they have to share a continent with you? I would call all Europeans idiots but I would hate for the rotten apple you are to spoil the bunch.
: Crying for Janna nerfs, hurricane in Texas...
This is the 4th tornado warning on my damn phone. Also at least 4 tornadoes have made a landing since the hurricane came near my area lol. Janna stahp!! I live near Houston.
: This is just my opinion on what would happen if we let Leona proc her passive on monsters (read: made her a viable jungler). I think that she would almost certainly be too oppressive. With the ability to operate outside of lanes and accumulate selfish tank items more quickly and easily than as a support, she would be running around the map ganking lanes and ulting from the fog of war while being able to farm. It would also be awkward when she ran into the enemy jungler, since she isn't able to proc her own passive on enemy champions. Right now as a support, she's confined to bot lane to an extent to generate gold and play with her ADC, and there's tradeoffs to her roaming around the map. If she could operate independently we'd probably have to make nerfs to compensate, which would then end up hurting her in the support position. At this point, you now have support Leona mains asking why their champion was nerfed to make room for a playstyle they didn't ask for, so I think keeping the status quo of Leona support is good. I think that in the past we've discouraged jungle Alistar (remember season 2?) and Blitzcrank for similar reasons.
That sounds pretty balanced to me. Have really okayish ganks level 6 then god level ganks after level 6. But in return have no passive when encountering the enemy jungler. I would rater heave Leona be really strong in the jungle than be really weak in the support role for whoever knows how long. Right now there is no reason to pick Leona. Yes her level 6 engage is good but other champs have better level 6 engage while still having a safe laning phase. Why play Leona when you can have Rakan who has a better ulti W combo after level 6 and also have an escape, while also having a better pre 6? I like Leona but I cant for the life of me player in support role because she is outclassed. A simple buff to Leona support to make her more viable is Sunlight procs gant Leona a burst of movement speed so she can have an escape. A simple buff to jungle Leona is to give her an ad ratio somewhere on her kit, like her E or W. I liked playing Leona jungle prior to the Q buffs. And now I would imagine it has only gotten better. Why not give jungle Leona a chance on the PBE with the passive procing on monsters?
: > Passive changes - Already hurting solo karma. This passive was extremely strong and made or broke a good karma player. Now you nerfed it which now potentially justifies giving karma a new passive which you did not. If your goal is to make Karma stronger late game then why nerf the passive? The passive change is a revert to the pre 5.10 values which at the time were fine since you had more means to proc it. I would be all for giving her a new passive though, I was considering an idea which gave her an empowered auto attack after a brief channel following her basic auto attack (with a cool martial arts animation xD). > Q changes - Nerfing solo lane Karma again early game and late game. Worse base and scaling and more mana costs. Triple nerf on one ability so far. Yes. People always complain about her early damage (especially in bot), so I tuned it down a bit in favor of a better late game with her RQ. Though was also considering lowering the cooldown of Q, the way you worded this statement is making me think I probably should have haha xD. > Mantra Q- Buff of total damage output by .1 ap and a weaker slow early and a stronger slow late and better target selection. So a nerf early game and a buff late game. Yes. I particularly wanted to improve the feel of using Mantra abilities compared to her basic abilities. One of the cool things about Karma is that she has weaker but more spammable basic abilities than most other mages and supports, then she has Mantra to combo with them. Seriously though, the fact that she has Mantra from level 0 means she'd never really be weak early, I think she can afford to take a little off her early for a better late. > W changes - Nerf on Karma in general both on root duration and scaling not to mention the root duration being shorter also hurts Karma's bread and butter combo W into Mantra Q. Currently live once Karma has 4 ranks and above on her W, it is a guaranteed that Karma will land both partions of Mantra Q. Now it is never guaranteed. Because once you wait for the root to land, Mantra Q will have a travel time and a cast time and therefore the root will expire before your Mantra Q second detonation will happen. Now enemy players can flash before the root lands and after to avoid taking full damage at all points in the game. First of all, this is a buff to her early root. Currently you have to level W to rank 3 for a 1.5s root, the issues of enemies flashing the 2nd part of the RQ isn't really an issue for 2 reasons: 1. If they do flash, you have successfully burned an enemy flash. 2. Your CDs are much lower than other mages and supports anyway, so it doesn't really matter. The fact that W is maxed last and still takes 3 levels to reach 1.5s makes it seem fair to me. Just enough time to secure RQ in most instances with no wasted power. > Mantra W enemy effect - Mantra W does have increased damage again which I like. Realistically though you do not care about the better ap ratio 70% of the time. It was a 60% AP ratio on both the W and RW. > You only want to use Mantra W when you are low hp and therefore you care more about surviving than the damage. Back when she did have bonus damage she would also use RW to guarantee a certain amount of damage on a target in a trade or a duel. It was important for her back then especially in lane when you were creep blocked but needed the damage, but I kinda remedied that by making RQ ground targeted... :/ >  I would of love a new effect on Mantra W that added utility and damage. Me too, any ideas? I just went back for the bonus damage because it restored harmony to her Mantra and is better than that trash bonus root. > Mantra W should never deal as much damage as Mantra Q. It didn't and still wouldn't. I also forgot to start the the RW bonus damage from 60 as opposed to 75 too. > And the heal is weaker early I believe which is another nerf to early game lane Karma but a buff to late game. More to do with discouraging tank builds and accommodating the ally cast. > Mantra W ally effect - I am glad the tether mechanic would be back. Played old Karma loved it. Love canceled dashes and the heal back. BUT giving Karma an ally heal maybe dangerous Karma already can poke the enemy out of lane if she can sustain herself and or her ally she maybe to much to handle. Well she already has the option to sustain herself currently on live, it's just mostly the wrong choice as a support because it's selfish. She won't be poking anybody out of lane whilst sustaining her ADC, it would be one or the other never both. In fact the nerfs to her Q would make it more difficult to outright poke someone out of lane both in terms of damage and cost. > You nerfed her early game a lot to make this more balanced but did you nerf solo lane karma to much to have these changes? The changes are intended as a net buff to both Mid and Support. I genuinely don't see how this is a nerf to what we have now. > E - Stop what you are doing. That new effect stop it. No no no. This is broken, refreshing on every auto. Giving your adc or your whole team a permanent 60% movement speed in a team fight is broken. Agreed. Its been pointed out to me already, the the reapplied MS would have to be drastically lower to be even considered. Inplane suggested 1/4 of the initial MS boost, which I think would be reasonable. Do You? Mantra E- SO karma has the mega shield value and now the damage? That is over powered. If her shield has damage component on it than her initial shield target should never have an ap shield value .8 ap in total. I nerfed RE back to its original shield base values and kept the scaling for the main shield. I was thinking of removing the AoE shield part and keeping AoE MS, do you think that would be better?
I really like her current passive though D:. But I wish Karma had an ability that made her auto attack. Too me Karma should have to auto attack to get the most out of her passive but she has no damage coming from her autos like Orianna or Lux. So I wish she had something. Q - if you want to nerf with the base and scaling then yeah I would agree giving a lower cooldown and or longer range. Mantra Q - I am ok with it being weaker early and stronger later in the game. haha I am just saying what are buffs and nerfs in your rework so I can keep track. W - Your version of W is indeed a nerf to her damage early but she does have a better root. She lost .3 ap ratio on her W and her .05 on her Q. So when Karma goes for trades without her ulti she is weaker. But when she has ulti she is stronger. Now that her Mantra Q second detonation is never guaranteed it is basically a slap in the face to the Karma player. Karma already had the burden of staying next to an enemy champion for two seconds, if they wanted to flash to avoid the Mantra Q they had two seconds to do so or if they wanted to use their dash or blinks they had two seconds to do so. This means much more to me I guess as when I play Karma mid I max W second because I feel the whole point of your W is to ensure Mantra Q lands. And as a mid laner that means much more than shielding my ally. Maybe it is not that big of a deal I just know im gonna lose duels more often than not with Mantra Q second detonation not being guaranteed at any point in the game. Also imagine facing assassins with more dashes and blinks getting away from the second detonation of Mantra Q all the time. Mantra W - When It comes to Mantra abilities they should have a damage and utility component. Mantra Q should deal the most damage because it has less utility, Mantra E should deal the least amount of damage because it has the best utility, and Mantra W should be somewhere in between. Here is my idea of what Karma's W and Mantra W could be. My idea - W ap ratio lowered to .7. NEW EFFECT- successful roots now causes Karma's next basic attack to deal bonus magic damage flat damage plus .15 ap ratio. Karma can also shield her ally to grant their next auto attack to deal bonus magic damage as well.Note Karma's bonus magic damage auto attack counts as an ability for her passive (this makes up for losing a tick) Mantra W the root damage is increased by .3 ap and auto attack ap ratio by .15. (I for one never understand why Karma was never given a damaging auto attack when her kit makes much more sense to have one unlike lux and orianna. and now Karma becomes more enchanter like) Another idea for Mantra W on an enemy could be it creating an aoe zone around the enemy champion that is tether for 3 seconds. Enemies around the rooted target are slowed by a certain amount. And the Area of Effect zone deals a certain amount of damage per second. Probably .2 ap per second for a total of .6 ap. *Note the enemy champion is not slowed only his allies near him* I agree the tank builds on Karma should not be how you play Karma. E- I do not think auto attacks refreshing the movement speed is a way to go for Karma at all. Maybe nerf the shield values on her base shield but make it a shield bomb all the time even without ulting? And then give the damage portion a delay of 2 seconds or 1.5 seconds to match the movement speed? Feel like this would make Karma for battlemage like. Also if you lowered her Q cooldown her new play style at max CDR would be to throw a Q at enemy champion, speed herself up with E, get in range W and land E damage portion and wait for root to happen and Mantra Q. Mantra E- I am all for removing the AOE shield on Mantra E, I feel it creates more problems than helps Karma. I feel Karma should be stronger early compared to most champs because she does not have a true ultimate. While her ultimate is strong it is generally not as strong as other champions. And if you nerf a champions early game that affects how well they do in a solo lane.
: Rebalancing Karma
Some of these changes are interesting. I play mid and top Karma so I am gonna focus on that when looking at your ideas. Passive changes - Already hurting solo karma. This passive was extremely strong and made or broke a good karma player. Now you nerfed it which now potentially justifies giving karma a new passive which you did not. If your goal is to make Karma stronger late game then why nerf the passive? Q changes - Nerfing solo lane Karma again early game and late game. Worse base and scaling and more mana costs. Triple nerf on one ability so far. Mantra Q- Buff of total damage output by .1 ap and a weaker slow early and a stronger slow late and better target selection. So a nerf early game and a buff late game. W changes - Nerf on Karma in general both on root duration and scaling not to mention the root duration being shorter also hurts Karma's bread and butter combo W into Mantra Q. Currently live once Karma has 4 ranks and above on her W, it is a guaranteed that Karma will land both partions of Mantra Q. Now it is never guaranteed. Because once you wait for the root to land, Mantra Q will have a travel time and a cast time and therefore the root will expire before your Mantra Q second detonation will happen. Now enemy players can flash before the root lands and after to avoid taking full damage at all points in the game. Basically either buff the root duration or shorten detonation on Mantra Q, or make Mantra Q a damage over time ability to justify this. This may not seem like a big deal but at higher elo this is huge. Mantra W enemy effect - Mantra W does have increased damage again which I like. Realistically though you do not care about the better ap ratio 70% of the time. You only want to use Mantra W when you are low hp and therefore you care more about surviving than the damage. It is nice but not that necessary. I would of love a new effect on Mantra W that added utility and damage. This is a little lack luster for me. Basically live it is a stronger root but no damage, your version is just more damage which is nice but Mantra W should never deal as much damage as Mantra Q. I have suggestions though if you want to hear them. And the heal is weaker early I believe which is another nerf to early game lane Karma but a buff to late game. Mantra W ally effect - I am glad the tether mechanic would be back. Played old Karma loved it. Love canceled dashes and the heal back. BUT giving Karma an ally heal maybe dangerous Karma already can poke the enemy out of lane if she can sustain herself and or her ally she maybe to much to handle. You nerfed her early game a lot to make this more balanced but did you nerf solo lane karma to much to have these changes? E - Stop what you are doing. That new effect stop it. No no no. This is broken, refreshing on every auto. Giving your adc or your whole team a permanent 60% movement speed in a team fight is broken. Mantra E- SO karma has the mega shield value and now the damage? That is over powered. If her shield has damage component on it than her initial shield target should never have an ap shield value .8 ap in total. I think you nerfed solo lane karma too much, along with Karma early game. As well as you nerfed Karma's basic abilities just to buff her Mantra abilities to much.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vhan8765,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GhHWwbjk,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-16T14:34:17.140+0000) > > That&#x27;s the only part I&#x27;m somewhat confused on cause if you look through the article&#x27;s comments section, all the Rioter&#x27;s not only speak like it&#x27;ll be retired but I believe one or two of them even say it will be? > Assuming the article isn&#x27;t riddled in errors like they usually are, I&#x27;m a lot more okay with this skin; although still heavily agree to it being an overall scam, just a bit more of a fair one. Just to add some clarity around the "legacy" component. Neo PAX Sivir will have a chance of dropping in Loot until January 8th, 2018. If you have 10 gemstones - she'll be craftable until January 8th, 2018. _After_ that Neo PAX Sivir will be removed from Loot (no drops, no more craftable options). We may bring her back at a later point in time. PAX Sivir is an extremely rare skin. We wanted to find a way to make this skin theme available to players that weren't around "back in the day" in a way that didn't take away from the original owners. Hope this clarification helps.
I love Sivir and I will be happy to add Neo Pax Sivir into my collection. I am just curious does this count as a new skin for Sivir? I know Riot tries to release a new skin for a champ after a year or so and Sivir's last skin you could buy was Warden released on February 2015 and her true last skin you could get was Victorious Sivir released on November 2015. I hope my roughly two years of waiting was not used on a recolor. I am hoping Sivir will get a new event themed skin for all the waiting, such as a harrowing skin or pool party skin. Is pool party happening this year?
Akolai (NA)
: Why don't Bandit, Warrior Princess, and Spectacular Sivir carry the SAME weapon on their splash arts
Because Riot has not yet updated all of Sivir's splash arts after her VGU. And that will not change for a long time since Miss Fortune is the next to get her splash arts updated and riot has stated Sivir probably will not be next after Miss Fortune because they do not want to do two adc splash arts back to back. And Miss Fortune splashes will be worked on after Eve's VGU comes out, which we are not exactly sure when they will be.
iSeaSalt (EUW)
: Why Does Karma Have Low Winrate?
When I see people say that Karma mid sucks they either have not played against a good one or have no idea how to play her. Karma can put out solid damage through out all points of the game. When I play Karma mid I normally do the most damage in the game. I have gotten to Masters playing just Karma, mainly Karma mid but also Karma top and support. Some tips Q farming does require to have special positioning to maximize your farming capabilities, You level 1 pushing power is quite strong. Use Mantra Q in between the casters and melee minions, Q back line minions again and auto remaining minions down. This lets you shove really hard level 1 and it will let you harass your lanning opponent or go ward or help your jungler invade. Q does have decently wide AOE hitbox so even if they are standing behind their minions you cant hit the enemy champion a good chunk of the time. IF you are looking to Mantra Q cast W and then press R and wait for the root to apply, you can shave off an extra two seconds on your R. Which is much more noticeable with 45% cdr and your passive. There is a lot of other things but here was just a few tips.
: With the new buff to leona's q, will we see her finally played in esports?
Leona has no disengage so she will never be played. If you want a cc tank support there are other options that have escapes like Naut. Also ardent sensor is to strong so shielding and healing supports are favored. Also peeling supports are better right now and Leona is not known for her peel just for her set up and engage. She can peel but it is not as good as other supports. The Q cd is nice but is probably negligible. Its gonna make jungle Leona good though. An auto attack reset every 5 seconds that also stuns yes please. IF they want to make support Leona more better than she needs movement speed in her kit somehow. Maybe more base movement speed or successful hits of her passive give her a burst of movement speed or when she hits champions with her aoe shield damage ability it grants her a burst of movement speed.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 8
Leona buffs E can now dash to large jungle monsters and epic monsters and pets and or Sunlight Procs grant Leona a short burst of movement speed or when Leona's W successfully hits a large monster or champion she gains a burst of movement speed. No one plays Leona in higher elo because she has no tools to get out. Also maybe buff her ulti range to make her more unique, it already has a surprisingly long range. I would love a Q cd shorten though makes jungle Leona more viable.
: [Gameplay] Sivir spell shield bug?
You can only block the initial hit of a tether never the second part. For example Leblanc chain, if you spell shield the first part then the spell is done, if leblanc hits you with initial chain and you try spell shield the root of it, it will not work. Same works for Karma. Actually a lot of spells are like this. Zed R works similarly. You can spell shield the initial cast of Zed R but you can not spell shield after he did all his damage and his ulti on you is about to pop.
: @Riot When you get to Karma...
In my opinion Karma needs only a little bit of things to make her rewarding, and good in both solo queue and competitive. Her passive is really good and should stay. These passives are overlooked by most players but this passive is what makes Karma so good.Mantra Q is already a good ability and does not need changes. In my opinion W and E are the only things holding karma back. W ap ratio lowered to .7. *NEW EFFECT*- successful roots now causes Karma's next basic attack to deal bonus magic damage flat damage plus .15 ap ratio. Karma can also shield her ally to grant their next auto attack to deal bonus magic damage as well.*Note Karma's bonus magic damage auto attack counts as an ability for her passive* (this makes up for losing a tick) Mantra W the root damage is increased by .3 ap and auto attack ap ratio by .15. (I for one never understand why Karma was never given a damaging auto attack when her kit makes much more sense to have one unlike lux and orianna. and now Karma becomes more enchanter like) E ap ratio shield value lowered to .4 New Effect shield bomb damage happens every time now but takes 2 seconds to charge up and deal Area of Effect damage .4 ap ratio. Mantra E both shield and damage values are increased by .4 ap ratio and now the closes enemy champion near her shielded target is knocked back. Also Mantra E damage is now instant and not delayed.
Wrekzzz (NA)
: Runes Corner: Stormlord's Mandate and Spellslinger's Surge
How do these work with Sivir's ricochet? Currently live Sivir ricochets do not count towards thunderlord proc at all. I can understand getting hit by 3 Sivir ricochets and then have thunderlords proc would be a little unfair. But at least one ricochet out of the 3 should count towards stormlords. Makes me feel sad when I play Sivir mid and I take thunderlords. Also does this mean that Karma's Mantra Q and Leblanc chains or Morgana Ulti no longer count has two procs for stormlords? Maybe Mantra Q could still count has two unique spells given that both parts are pretty unique.
: @Reav3 Any warden or maurauder skins on the horizon ?
If leblanc becomes the mid laner for the warden skin line my trinity of champs will be all in one skin line. Karma Leblanc Sivir
Ars3lyn (NA)
: Testing, Questions, and Answers About Sivir (testing in Progress)
Oh and I use to run Mobi quints on Sivir mid but that was prework. Right now it is really hard to cancel auto attack animations with her base attack speed and the mastery attack speed. Most adc champs need around .69 and higher to feel more fluid. Also her ricochets do not apply lifesteal, only deaths dance will heal her from ricochet targets.
Ars3lyn (NA)
: Testing, Questions, and Answers About Sivir (testing in Progress)
Try going Sivir mid with Duskblade, Yommus, Black Clever, Phantom Dancer, and Deaths dance, forget boots buy another ad item.
Meddler (NA)
: Some extra Sivir Q damage at rank 1 is a possibility, her early game looks too weak. Still aiming to do some Ez W work at some point, doesn't look feasible before Worlds however. Will be looking at a small other buff instead as a result.
I am glad Sivir Q is getting increase in damage because 25 base is really low, I know it scales off of total ad but it is still pretty low. I hope there maybe some other small buffs too like successful spell shield blocks grant fleet of foot and maybe something crazy like Sivir ricochets bounces cause targets to take more damage from boomerang blade. This would add more depth to Sivirs kit and buff her non problematic parts of her kit Q and feet of foot.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 30
Any thoughts on Karma after those nerfs?
: [REWORK CONCEPT] Sivir, the Battle Mistress
Anything that gives boomerang blade more power is nice and I would love. I miss old Sivir Q. New Sivir Q has terrible base damage so it sucks so bad without items. I was thinking why not make it to were champs hit by ricochet take more damage from Sivir Q? Gives more depth to Sivir and makes her more deadly in AOE scenarios early.
: (Repost) Sivir's Ricochets don't apply Elder Dragon's burn damage on enemies. Is this intended?
So i love doing mid lane Sivir and the number one thing that pisses me off is the ricochet doesnt apply a single stack of thunderlords. Just one stack and a ricochet into boomerang blade both hits would be so nice and would literally one shot people with my armor pen sivir mid build :C
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 23
Any thoughts on Karma after the nerfs? Specifically solo lane karma? Also I remember you guys were considering buffing morgana a few patches ago? Is that still happening? Might I suggest increasing her auto attack range? How do you guys feel about Sivir? How do you guys feel about kayle?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 20
How do you guys feel Karma is doing after the nerfs? Specifically Mid lane karma?
Darkrown (EUNE)
: Gatekeeper Karma
I love it pls take my money riot and make this
Darkrown (EUNE)
: Gatekeeper Karma
Halloween Karma skin confirmed
: why nerf karma
They nerfed Karma because of the new athenes and new zeke's harbinger. But still they keep nerfing support karma without ever compensating mid karma.
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REDREX7

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