: Pretty sure Riot wants Naut to max Q first. First it was a damage buff, now it is a mana cost reduction.
But why? More engaging?
: Ornn
He does need to go back for mana since he's not buying mana gen.
LankPants (OCE)
: >I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. It wouldn't, in this case Draven would literally start ignoring his own mechanics and just build a fuckton of crit and focus on dodging Sion's abilities over catching his axes because your axes don't matter in a case where Sion can't touch you. >I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo. There's more skill playing VS Sion than Mundo, there's not a significant more skill playing as Sion than Mundo. As Sion you're just fishing with your abilities and praying the enemy isn't smart enough to avoid them or your ally CCs them for you. >That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them. When you use Sion's Q in plat/diamond people run in the way that gets them off the ability the quickest. When you R people generally run back to tower instantly. People understand how to respect Sion and once you respect Sion his impact on a game pretty much ceases assuming he's a balanced champ. You don't get agency as Sion, you give everybody else a way to play around you. It was the exact same with Cho'gath 3 patches ago. There's a reason I keep bringing up Cho'gath too, he's a perfect example of how unreliability can lead to a very poor design. For him to ever be viable he needs to be absurd, Sion is basically a lesser version of this.
> [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-22T17:43:21.486+0000) > > OK, get into pointblank R range. > > Cho's E and R are far from reliable. Kitting is a thing that exists in League, it is counterplay and it is very effective VS Cho'gath. All of Cho'gaths abilities are unreliable, even more so than Sion's. Point and click damage is more unreliable than everything in Sion's kit? What?
: There's no reason to play Nautilus...
Oh god Nautilus is now the generic tank.
: Thise the rite of lamb mean that they killed their elders? Cause thats what it sounds like.
Merciful and quick painless deaths.
Sharjo (EUW)
: Ornn's Bio and Colour are live!
Ornn is so hot he can melt true ice. Also: THERE ARE MORE ICEBORN AROUND THAN WE REALIZED.
LankPants (OCE)
: >I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. It wouldn't, in this case Draven would literally start ignoring his own mechanics and just build a fuckton of crit and focus on dodging Sion's abilities over catching his axes because your axes don't matter in a case where Sion can't touch you. >I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo. There's more skill playing VS Sion than Mundo, there's not a significant more skill playing as Sion than Mundo. As Sion you're just fishing with your abilities and praying the enemy isn't smart enough to avoid them or your ally CCs them for you. >That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them. When you use Sion's Q in plat/diamond people run in the way that gets them off the ability the quickest. When you R people generally run back to tower instantly. People understand how to respect Sion and once you respect Sion his impact on a game pretty much ceases assuming he's a balanced champ. You don't get agency as Sion, you give everybody else a way to play around you. It was the exact same with Cho'gath 3 patches ago. There's a reason I keep bringing up Cho'gath too, he's a perfect example of how unreliability can lead to a very poor design. For him to ever be viable he needs to be absurd, Sion is basically a lesser version of this.
Except Draven can't dodge a point blank ult unless he's flashing. If he's just not going to use his Q, then he's wasting out on a bunch of damage that Sion can build against and he can still catch Draven by slowing him with his E or hitting him with his W. There's one problem with your Cho argument: his ult is extremely reliable. People don't play Cho for his Q, hell I don't think his W matters that much anymore. All that matters are the most reliable parts of his kit being his ult and E. The parts they made broken. See with Sion, his power is in his unreliable abilities, so it's up to the player with the proper skill and planning to use them. Yeah Sion isn't meta in high elo, he's mainly played by his mains. That's a _good_ thing because it's a champion that rewards dedication to the playstyle for success.
: It was supposed to be a joke but execution gone wrong :|
LankPants (OCE)
: >Hug you to death is basically stat checking. It's not fun to fight against or even as. I don't feel like I'm doing much if all I'm doing to trying to stay close to them. Statcheck hate is something I've never understood. Someone has to have the best stats, let's say for a second we remove every champ bar Sion, Cho'gath and Draven, Draven now statchecks Cho and Sion. There's always room to play against them anyway, since statchecks tend to have very strong and obvious team based counterplay. Do you know what I personally don't find fun to play as? Shitty clunky champions. I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to playing Sion when all you're doing is testing how retarded your enemies are. I played Cho a few times recently and it's the same shit, if your enemies play well you're fucking worthless. >Unreliability allows for more skill expression. I firmly believe that champions should be more unreliable in their abilities (all abilities, including escapes) in order to better show skill expression. >Otherwise we just have whichever champion is the most reliable always be taking the head of the meta. And frankly that's boring. I don't want to see a Draven or Sion only do well because they are busted, I want to see them do well because they are being played well. If every champ was like Draven or Sion I'd quit LoL on the spot. I'd never play another game and I'd never look back. I want to play a reliable champion because I don't want to play game after game testing how terrible my enemies are which is what these champs ultimately do when they're not insanely out of line.
I don't like stat checking because it just removes your ability to really play around people. I guess if I was to better explain it, it's like fighting a fed Yi or Tryndamere compared to fighting them evenly. On even ground you feel like there's more of a chance even if they stat check you a little. But if fed, their stats are so high that you don't get to play around them. I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo. The ability to avoid everything a fed player has is what I consider healthy because it showcases your skill and your opponent. I want to beat them with my skill over my stats. That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them.
LankPants (OCE)
: >Except Wukong's and Zac's aren't engage ults. They are disruption ults. If a Zac was using his R to engage over his E then he fat fingered his keyboard. Zac has the tools to engage and Wukong doesn't. You're pulling at straws at this point and you understand that. Zac and Wukong are inherently different from each other because of how different the rest of their kits are. You could copy/paste Zacs R onto Wukong and they would still play differently. >Her W may not have slowed, but with her E it was the same effect. Ice sunfire cape. Her W may not stun, but with her E or an Irelia it has that effect. Fuck Irelia and her 4 AA point and click stun whenever she has a Sejuani on her team. >Except passive AoE effects don't have as wide a pool of champions that can effectively use that counterplay in order to win a fight. >Everyone can dodge a skill shot. That doesn't mean anyone can effectively fight someone that's doing constant AoE damage whenever they try to make a melee attack. Plus if you had it slow beforehand (or if old Sejuani's E was off cooldown) then she makes it directly harder to do the counterplay towards it. >That's like a skill shot that slows you while traveling to you. It reduces its own counterplay. >ADCs have a movespeed of 330 at base (I think) and don't go past 400 unless they have air dragons. If your grounded slows allow someone like an adc to escape as easily as someone naturally faster (which is technically impossible since the faster person would escape first) then your slow is garbage. All of this can be rebutted with a single phrase, LoL is a team game. A champion doesn't have to offer you personal counterplay to be fair, what do you do against a Zed as Kog'maw? If your team does nothing to help you there's actually nothing you can do, he doesn't offer you counterplay, he offers your team counterplay. Old Sej was a lot like this, you couldn't personally counterplay her unless you could either dash away from her or turn and outstat her. She wasn't very hard to peel though, should your team drop a decent slow on her she's probably not going to keep up with you and if they knocked her away she just had to give up. Peeling for your team is a form of counterplay, if it wasn't League would have a lot of very broken champions. >And other people do that better. Hence why we don't see Nunu support over Nunu jungle. Nunu support is a historical relic, not directly forced out by any large scale nerfs but rather made irrelevant by meta shifts. The simple fact it existed however is a testament to how strong of an ability Nunu's W is. It gives a fuckton of stats, saying it's not good is like saying adding 3 daggers to your inventory isn't good.
Again, Zac and Wukong's ults were used for the same purpose of teamfight disruption. Their kits are different, but the way they used their ults felt too similar to Riot. As for the team game part, yes I know. But Sejuani has a history of being really oppressive without needing her team to back her up in a 1v1. Giving her a bunch of slows and more damage might just make her a top laner over a jungler or make it so it's impossible to run from her if she catches you out. I'm not saying new Sejuani is great. I find her design awful. But it's not like old Sejuani was never an issue and it feels like people want the worst parts of her kit back.
LankPants (OCE)
: >Which is honestly why I'm shocked that people want to encourage mechanics that usually revolve around hugging your opponent to death or just spamming abilities to hit targets to make them easier to hit with other abilities. It's because champs like Sion, Cho'gath and Draven turn to shit in high elo when they're not absurdly broken. They're too easy to play around. Champs need a degree of reliability to actually function when balanced. You can go too far in the other direction and get Garen or Sona and that's just as big of a problem. There's a sweetspot and old Sej was pretty close to it. "Hug you opponents to death" also isn't a bad mechanic. It creates play, you have time to get out.
Hug you to death is basically stat checking. It's not fun to fight against or even as. I don't feel like I'm doing much if all I'm doing to trying to stay close to them. Unreliability allows for more skill expression. I firmly believe that champions should be more unreliable in their abilities (all abilities, including escapes) in order to better show skill expression. Otherwise we just have whichever champion is the most reliable always be taking the head of the meta. And frankly that's boring. I don't want to see a Draven or Sion only do well because they are busted, I want to see them do well because they are being played well.
LankPants (OCE)
: >But her slows don't make her unreliable, it just makes her unable to lock down targets like Yi or other mobile champions. I hate to point out the flaw in your logic, but she still wouldn't be able to lock down Yi with slows.
I know. I literally said she wouldn't be able to lock him down with slows.
LankPants (OCE)
: >Yes the champions had different niches to fill but their ultimates were used for the exact same thing. Making their roles in a teamfight effectively very similar. Try to play a teamfight as Wukong with a standard build by Eing in and Ring before any of your team do anything, there's a very high chance you die pathetically without accomplishing anything because you're just not tanky enough to do that. Wukong plays a secondary engage role, he's a lot like Yasuo, in a pinch you can maybe pull something out of your arse but you'd really prefer to follow a Malphite or a Zac into a fight. >Right because a slowing Sunfire was such an interactive ability. Her W never slowed before her rework, that's like saying "Sej's W is a stunning, high damage, spammable skillshot, how is that fair?". It makes no damn sense because you're talking about two abilities as if they're one ability. PAoEs are also effects that create a lot of play, just like skillshots are effects that create a lot of play. There's very clear counterplay to a PAoE, get the fuck out of it, just like there's very clear counterplay to a skillshot, dodge it. >The point is not their uniqueness, but the inherent flaw of your only hard CC spell as a tank being your ultimate. I disagree with that assertion in the first place. I don't think tanks having hard CC on their ult only is the problem, the problem is that tanks now have 3 hard CCs by default. >Or honestly a little oppressive. Suddenly there's no way to actually escape. That's making the assumption that there's already no way for Ashe to escape the slow. Assuming the ability's balanced correctly everybody can escape. What adding a ground does is balance the field, it becomes as easy for Ashe to escape Sejuani as Ezreal because Sej doesn't need some insane slow to hold down Ezreal. >Nunu's AS increase isn't that important compared to others and that just leaves his snowball for consistently interacting with people. You might want to look up support Nunu and how it worked. You literally played as a Zeal for your ADC. The ability's not that much weaker now than it was then. It's more just that supports do more now, still this is an ability that carried Nunu against champs like Janna in pretty much her current state ability wise.
> [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=0003000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T16:15:59.638+0000) > > Try to play a teamfight as Wukong with a standard build by Eing in and Ring before any of your team do anything, there's a very high chance you die pathetically without accomplishing anything because you're just not tanky enough to do that. > > Wukong plays a secondary engage role, he's a lot like Yasuo, in a pinch you can maybe pull something out of your arse but you'd really prefer to follow a Malphite or a Zac into a fight. > Except Wukong's and Zac's aren't engage ults. They are disruption ults. If a Zac was using his R to engage over his E then he fat fingered his keyboard. > Her W never slowed before her rework, that's like saying "Sej's W is a stunning, high damage, spammable skillshot, how is that fair?". It makes no damn sense because you're talking about two abilities as if they're one ability. > Her W may not have slowed, but with her E it was the same effect. Ice sunfire cape. > PAoEs are also effects that create a lot of play, just like skillshots are effects that create a lot of play. There's very clear counterplay to a PAoE, get the fuck out of it, just like there's very clear counterplay to a skillshot, dodge it. > Except passive AoE effects don't have as wide a pool of champions that can effectively use that counterplay in order to win a fight. Everyone can dodge a skill shot. That doesn't mean anyone can effectively fight someone that's doing constant AoE damage whenever they try to make a melee attack. Plus if you had it slow beforehand (or if old Sejuani's E was off cooldown) then she makes it directly harder to do the counterplay towards it. That's like a skill shot that slows you while traveling to you. It reduces its own counterplay. > I disagree with that assertion in the first place. I don't think tanks having hard CC on their ult only is the problem, the problem is that tanks now have 3 hard CCs by default. > My only problem is when the abilities are too reliable. At least Poppy requires a wall or a dash to make the most out of her base kit hard CC (yeah she has her knock back but if she isn't getting a stun for it then you're already dead or she fucked up). > That's making the assumption that there's already no way for Ashe to escape the slow. Assuming the ability's balanced correctly everybody can escape. What adding a ground does is balance the field, it becomes as easy for Ashe to escape Sejuani as Ezreal because Sej doesn't need some insane slow to hold down Ezreal. > ADCs have a movespeed of 330 at base (I think) and don't go past 400 unless they have air dragons. If your grounded slows allow someone like an adc to escape as easily as someone naturally faster (which is technically impossible since the faster person would escape first) then your slow is garbage. > You might want to look up support Nunu and how it worked. You literally played as a Zeal for your ADC. The ability's not that much weaker now than it was then. It's more just that supports do more now, still this is an ability that carried Nunu against champs like Janna in pretty much her current state ability wise. And other people do that better. Hence why we don't see Nunu support over Nunu jungle.
LankPants (OCE)
: >except grounded which is a terrible idea, because it works against 70% of league's champs, and tied to a slow making the spell good in any situation That's kind of the idea. If your niche is "do this thing" you should generally be pretty good at doing it to at least a majority of champs. The current state of the game requires that a champ primarily balanced around slows has a way to deal with mobility. Personally I'd be fine if Sej was balanced as a slow tank without this, it would just mean she'd need higher damage to offset her lowered reliability. If you've ever seen my stance on the Sej rework you'd know that's A-OK with me. >there is a reason cass is top pick since a long time It's the insane amount of damage her E does. Turns out having Burst Per Second is pretty fucking good, same reason ADCs are so strong right now. >and if singed W wasn't hotfixed to get a higher cd he would still be OK, but what about Singed after his hotfix? Is he a menace destroying the game? Is there absolutely no way to balance him with that ground? It doesn't seem like it to me. I'd say the ground actually made him a far better champ design wise, it removed some of his worst matchups while the nerf that followed levelled some of his best matchups.
But her slows don't make her unreliable, it just makes her unable to lock down targets like Yi or other mobile champions. Against immobile champions she'd be very reliable and you're giving her more damage for her _lack_ of reliability when that lack is severely gone against immobile champions. She'd make shit worse for fighters.
Kloqdq (NA)
: I think we should focus in on the unique ways of making a tank like you mentioned, Braum Wall, Mumu Passive, Shen W. Ways that provide team utility and are very different mechanics but aren't just, I knock up that bitch. I stun that hoe. I slow that thot. Whatever you like. CC is good but when a champion is only CC, they all just blend together. We need tanks that do different shit from one another. I hope Riot makes more tanks with something different about them.
Riot can get creative on defensive mechanics. But offensive engage mechanics for tanks? So far Ornn and Sion are their best and it's just a different play on the charge in with CC mechanic.
LankPants (OCE)
: >I can win a teamfight even if I miss a Sion ult. I don't really have a way to say this without sounding like a complete arsehole, but that's because of your rank. At higher ranks people are much better at avoiding Sion's Q. If you miss your R you're never landing a Q unless a teammate CCs first and having to rely on a teammate to CC before you as a tank is not a place you want to be in. Sion is absolutely reliant on landing his R, but even in a case where you don't land R it still has a larger impact than Sej's old R did when missed because it moves you from point A to point B. >If old Sej missed her R, she still had her Q for engage but she'd be at a disadvantage in comparison to when her R hit. If you truly think she did nothing if her R missed, then you're only proving Riot right when they said her ult took too much power out of her kit. Can we read the quote again? >At least when Sej missed her R _**it**_ did basically nothing. I have emphasised the important word.
Fair point on the quote, I'll accept that. Missing an ult that's a skill shot usually does mean it does nothing. Sion's Q does not need to always hit. Sion is not a reliable heavy CC tank, he's meant to threaten CC to zone out opponents or draw aggro. That's the point of him being super telegraphed. If Sion can get an enemy where he wants them to go by missing his ult, then he used his ult effectively without actually landing it. I know my rank shows my difference in skill level to other players. Which is honestly why I'm shocked that people want to encourage mechanics that usually revolve around hugging your opponent to death or just spamming abilities to hit targets to make them easier to hit with other abilities.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T15:29:39.192+0000) > > As for a tank that's primarily soft CC over hard? **Malphite has mainly soft CC in his kit, only his ult has hard**. And you know why Malphite gets picked? His ult. that's why you're all below biglinc on this discussion what he said is to make tanks not cc bots anymore if you give sejuani only one cc on her ult, BUT give her other unique strengths on her base kit she wouldn't "just be picked because of her ult"
Except Malphite has this already with his AS slows and etc. he's still picked for his ult. Either the base kit needs to take power from the ult or the ult has to take it from the kit. You guys seem to want a strong kit and ult.
LankPants (OCE)
: >Again, Zac's and Wukong's basically had the same effect. Riot wanted to try a different niche with him. Wukong and Zac inherently fill different niches because Wukong is a fighter and Zac is a tank. It doesn't matter if they have an ability that functions similarly because their classes cause massive difference in playstyle. Arctic Assault and Vault Breaker are two very similar abilities but they do not cause Sejuani to play like Vi because there are so many other inherent differences between the two champions. >or you need to provide something that is the reward for slowing the target. AoE damage. Solved the fucking problem didn't I? It's almost like Sejuani's kit wasn't a problem in the first place. >If you make Sejuani have a mostly soft CC kit with a hard CC ult, you're basically making another Malphite Except Malphite has enough unique from Sej to stop them having a huge amount of overlap. The thing that most defines Malphite outside of his R is his E, it's a spell that basically fucks over any ADC you can stick to as Malphite. Sejuani would not get a similar spell. Also I don't think Sej should have the same "fuck all the ADs" thing that Malph has going for him. There's already a ton of inherent kit differences here, far more than Sej and Gragas or Sej and Zac right now. >Slows are just not good anymore, at least if your kit is overly reliant on them. Add a ground as well. A slow based kit with a ground somewhere has the potential to be incredibly good and incredibly unique. >If Nunu didn't have his counter jungle power then he'd be an actual useless champion. Nunu's W and E will never be useless. They're both very powerful spells. If Nunu had a more usable R and a different Q he'd probably be a very strong champ.
> [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=00030001000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-22T15:40:56.518+0000) > > Wukong and Zac inherently fill different niches because Wukong is a fighter and Zac is a tank. It doesn't matter if they have an ability that functions similarly because their classes cause massive difference in playstyle. > Yes the champions had different niches to fill but their ultimates were used for the exact same thing. Making their roles in a teamfight effectively very similar. > Arctic Assault and Vault Breaker are two very similar abilities but they do not cause Sejuani to play like Vi because there are so many other inherent differences between the two champions. > Very similar sure. They are not ultimate abilities however and VI's is used more selfishly while Sejuani's is better in teamfights. > AoE damage. Solved the fucking problem didn't I? It's almost like Sejuani's kit wasn't a problem in the first place. > Right because a slowing Sunfire was such an interactive ability. > Except Malphite has enough unique from Sej to stop them having a huge amount of overlap. The thing that most defines Malphite outside of his R is his E, it's a spell that basically fucks over any ADC you can stick to as Malphite. Sejuani would not get a similar spell. Also I don't think Sej should have the same "fuck all the ADs" thing that Malph has going for him. There's already a ton of inherent kit differences here, far more than Sej and Gragas or Sej and Zac right now. > The point is not their uniqueness, but the inherent flaw of your only hard CC spell as a tank being your ultimate. > Add a ground as well. A slow based kit with a ground somewhere has the potential to be incredibly good and incredibly unique. > Or honestly a little oppressive. Suddenly there's no way to actually escape. > Nunu's W and E will never be useless. They're both very powerful spells. If Nunu had a more usable R and a different Q he'd probably be a very strong champ. Nunu's AS increase isn't that important compared to others and that just leaves his snowball for consistently interacting with people. That doesn't mean they are good abilities.
LankPants (OCE)
: >"Old Zac did different shit when he went in" >No. Not really. His ult was basically used for the same reason Wukong's was and his Q was basically just an ability he'd spam for extra damage after landing his E. His R changed the way he played a teamfight compared to other tanks and yes, it was like Wukong's. It gave him a time of threat, if you could avoid Zac's R for long enough you were generally in a pretty damn good position and it empathised Zac's positional gameplay which the rework gave a solid kick in the teeth. >Permaslow Sejuani doesn't sound fun to fight at all for bruisers and would be royally fucked by any ability to reduce slows, making her laughably weak against certain teamcomps while being overly oppressive in others with little middle ground. Not saying the current one isn't already that, Why when I say a kit that's more reliant on slow do you instantly jump to permaslow? Old Sejuani had a kit that was more reliant on slows but did not actually have a permaslow. There's ways you could implement a permaslow that aren't terrible, one that stacks up and gives time to react before you can't react. TBH I'm not even convinced that permaslowing's as bad as people make it out to be anyway, Ashe isn't a problem, old Skarner honestly wasn't a huge problem either. I just don't see where people take huge issue with this, yes it has a larger effect on some champions, so does a ground which was the other effect I was suggesting and you don't seem to be flipping out about that. >just saying that if you want Sejuani to provide something unique, slow spam is basically the least unique thing to give her. What other tank relies primarily on soft CC over hard CC? The only possible answers to this are Nunu who I think has enough inherent kit overlap to differentiate them anyway and Malphite, who relies more on AS slows to shut down DPS than MS slows anyway. What overlap is there on tanks who rely on 3 hard CCs to function? Zac, Maokai, Leona, Naut, Ali, Galio. It makes a lot of sense to me to have Sej be more of a soft CC tank, it fits her theme, her mains preferred it and it's inherently more unique.
Again, Zac's and Wukong's basically had the same effect. Riot wanted to try a different niche with him. As for Sejuani and permaslows, it's usually because slows without some more followup don't really work out well. You either need to keep the target slowed for it to have an effect for a tank (especially with how much mobility is in the game) or you need to provide something that is the reward for slowing the target. If Sejuani's reward is just slowing the target, then she _really_ needs to slow the target. As for a tank that's primarily soft CC over hard? **Malphite has mainly soft CC in his kit, only his ult has hard**. And you know why Malphite gets picked? His ult. If you make Sejuani have a mostly soft CC kit with a hard CC ult, you're basically making another Malphite, a design that Riot wants to give a full VGU mind you. Slows are just not good anymore, at least if your kit is overly reliant on them. If Nunu didn't have his counter jungle power then he'd be an actual useless champion.
: i should probably actually tell you what my idea for her ult would be it'd be a 2-parter; first cast summons a really big cone from her location (roughly the size of MF ult or bigger) that applies a weak slow in the whole area second cast is the old ult, but with a catch; it's weaker if you don't throw it into the slow field. if you DO throw it, then the stun is stronger and it also erupts the slow field to do heavy damage across the whole area after a short delay, and applies a much stronger slow that sticks with them for a while after they leave it gives her versatility, it could look really cool, and it offers additional counterplay INCLUDING the original counterplay of someone bodyblocking the projectile to stop their whole team from getting frozen.
Seems kinda over complicated in practice. You'd need other people to lock down people from flashing or dashing away so your stun could hit (because it's not hard to get out of an MF ult and the power damage from this makes it less panicking).
LankPants (OCE)
: You can miss every single champion with Galio's R and it can still win you a fight. Even in a case where it misses everyone it's still a Shen R which actually grants more durability abet at a shorter range, while also zoning everyone out of a fight. There's absolutely nothing keeping it in check, it's an absurd ability. If you hit it you can win a teamfight off it, even if you miss it you can win a teamfight off of it. At least when Sej missed her R it did basically nothing. This was hypocrisy 101 on Riot's part.
I can win a teamfight even if I miss a Sion ult. Actually hitting your ult as a tank is not 100% necessary to win a teamfight unless you're champions like Amumu and Malphite who are more or less ult bots (Amumu at least brings increased magic damage. Malphite's AS slow doesn't seem noticeable). If old Sej missed her R, she still had her Q for engage but she'd be at a disadvantage in comparison to when her R hit. If you truly think she did nothing if her R missed, then you're only proving Riot right when they said her ult took too much power out of her kit. Galio's ult is kept in check by requiring an ally. Obviously it's not immune to nerfs, but to assume nothing keeps it in check when it has _a requirement based around your allies instead yourself_ is just ignoring a fact to support your opinion.
: oh, i thought you were being snarky afaik it doesn't effect displacements.
See I can't even tell anymore because people talk like it does and doesn't. And I've been too busy to check.
: Cartridge main - you've changed your icon.
I've been busy with missions.
: that's what i said. a champ who enhances ally CC probably shouldn't have a ton of his own
No. You said specifically displacements. I'm fine with the CC he has, I just don't think displacements should be effected by brittle.
LankPants (OCE)
: Some ideas I think would be good for differentiating tanks in general. {{champion:154}} : Revert. Old Zac already did different shit to other tanks when he went into a fight. {{champion:113}} : Higher reliance on soft CCs, more slows, possibly add a ground to her kit but with less hard CC in general. I'd even be fine with her losing the knockup on Q TBH, if we just make her more about slows and damage and just let her have her one hard CC be her big engage R again. {{champion:57}} : Maybe play up his warden strengths a bit, give him abilities that gain bonuses if they go through allies and let saplings count as allies in cases where none are around or something. What if instead of his Q he had a line root like Zyra's E but a bit slower that expanded in a circle when it hit an ally or a sapling? That way he'd have a sort of "GTFO my carry" ability. You could mix that in with some other more engage heavy elements and make him a tank who starts out a fight with an engage, probably not as good as some others though then tries to peel back and protect his team more while other tanks would prefer to just pick a guy and sit on him. {{champion:79}} : I reckon you play up Gragas as the tank who actually does things at a range. Shift power out of his E, preferably by making the hitbox actually match the animation and reducing the stun a bit and put some power into his Q. Maybe if you W before Q you could gain a bit of bonus damage on Q (less than W though) have a mini knockback around the centre of Q and consume the W buff, I'm not sure if that would be absolute cancer to play against, but at least it gives him something unique that's not just his gravitational pull on E. {{champion:111}} : Play up the CC tank again. Since he clearly needs buffs I'd like to see the slow on E increased a bit and his W gain bonus damage to monsters. Overall I don't feel like Naut's in the wrong direction, he at least makes the tradeoff a high CC tank should.
"Old Zac did different shit when he went in" No. Not really. His ult was basically used for the same reason Wukong's was and his Q was basically just an ability he'd spam for extra damage after landing his E. I'm not saying his new kit is better (though I think the ult is). His new Q makes it much more difficult for him to actually fail a gank and it's only redeeming quality is that it actually does require more thought than his old Q. Imo they should have kept his old Q and changed his W. Permaslow Sejuani doesn't sound fun to fight at all for bruisers and would be royally fucked by any ability to reduce slows, making her laughably weak against certain teamcomps while being overly oppressive in others with little middle ground. Not saying the current one isn't already that, just saying that if you want Sejuani to provide something unique, slow spam is basically the least unique thing to give her.
LankPants (OCE)
: >if we're bein honest i'd always enjoyed the idea sej Q should be a charge and not a dash. like a mini Sion ult or.. spirit breaker's Q. i'd like most of her old kit, or at least her W with a little skill added and some new way to apply slows. had an idea for an ult change to keep the old potential team stun with more telegraph to it, too I don't think Sejuani would actually function as a champion without a dash. She'd wind up like Rammus, too kitable and generally in a state where if she ever reaches you she just autowins because of how hard it is for her to reach you. I don't actually have a huge problem with this other than the fact that it makes Rammus significantly less unique. You could get around this with CC immunity, but I feel like that's just asking for trouble. I hold a very strong opinion that the dash should stay, while a charge may be thematically fitting it's an absolute nightmare from a balance perspective. I also never bought Riot's reasoning for removing Sejuani's old R. Are we really going to say "Sej's R has too much power" then immediately turn around with the Galio rework? Galio's R has 2x more power than Sejuani's ever had, even release Sejuani with her R that you didn't have to hit didn't have an ult on par with Galio. I don't personally see a problem with Sej's old R coming back TBH, the reason for removing it was utter bullshit anyway. Even if it doesn't come back she needs to have some method of actually impacting a teamfight in an AoE, the whole Sejuani rework was basically Riot looking at a champion and saying "how can we maintain absolutely nothing about her playstyle while at a surface level not changing her abilities that much". >i'd like his old ult back but condensed into a brief period, to make him the tank you pick when you want to shit on a wombo combo. so instead of it being some potentially 20 second damage reduction it's, say, 2 or 3 seconds where he redirects damage to himself, and then instead of bursting with it he translates the stored damage into extra DPS through autos I could see something like that working well. I do however think that Maokai's W needs to go. I know the whole "but targeted CC counters hypermobility" argument, but I don't personally think it's worth the cost here. His W's such a huge portion of his power budget for such a dull ability too, if you axed it you could do a lot with Maokai. You could play heavily on sapling/ally interactions to make him actually play like a Warden, rather than whatever the fuck he is now. >i think naut should be reverted to pre-s5 where he had less power on his E and his W was his main damage tool. it had more counterplay and was IMO much more interesting than him smashing E until he ran out of mana That's definitely and option. Naut's one case where I think he should definitely have some bonuses VS Jg monsters though. His clear is probably always going to be godawful without it, with it we might be able to bring him up to bad. >grag should be an AP fighter like he used to be, most of his mains play him like that anyway That would be pretty easy to do, nerf the stun on E to 0.5 sec from 1 sec, remove the slow on W or at least hit it down significantly and give him some better ratios. I'm still not sure how you ever plan on balancing that with his R though, a huge, non-committal AoE displacement is kinda power for an ult on anything that isn't a tank or a support.
Galio's R is held back by requiring an ally to be in the right position (in the middle of the enemy team) and has a wind up to allow people to get out. It's very powerful, but those conditions keep it more in check than Sejuani's old ult. If you want to make Gragas an AP fighter, you should probably have his only CC be in that ult of his.
: ornn's brittle would be great if he didn't have 2 knockups of his own
It'd be great if brittle didn't effect displacements.
Snaketits (EUW)
: That's extremely shortsighted of you. Did you even understand my concerns with the skin? The skin itself is a bit underwhelming considering the longass wait she had to endure (1350 RP skins are the new standard and by no means anything special), then there's the good possibility that it won't sell very well due to its nature which would possibly lead to 4 or 5 more years of no skin-releases for her.
It wouldn't have sold well anyway because Cassiopeia doesn't have that large of a playerbase.
: Wait, you're the Sion main?
: Yup. The champion was Sion and Corsair Sion was the one Almighty addressed, then he placed himself as the victim to Glory Ln Death (our famous sion main) just to add on to that.
That moment when you realize you have competition for being the most known Sion main.
: tanks can and should have strengths beyond CC
: infernal dragon ... what if we reverse it...
No. It just makes squishy people more durable than they should be.
: >This is coming from the same man who wants bruisers and fighters to be immune to CC. completely false but i'll bite. sorry, i don't want to be stunlocked for eternity by every single tank under the sun. god forbid i detest a design where 100% of new-age tanks are hard disablers funny that fighters are supposed to counter tanks but they dont anymore because one tank can make you completely invalid in a teamfight with about the same effort as it takes to play xin zhao
Fighters don't really hard counter anyone. They are general now.
: I think League can learn a lot from its rivals, Overwatch and TF2 which competes for the online playerbase demographic. Both games involve a relatively static world that is very rich and engaging - primarily because both games exude a lot of personality. Overwatch has a lot of quirky characters that actually interact with each other as does TF2. They come with a lot of supporting media, not just comics and text but also movies and cinematics that tie the universe in. It's not like a one-off Bard animation that is standalone, pretty, and doesn't mean much. Another problem with League's lore is simply the champion designs. If champions are becoming increasingly godlike entities (Ornn, Aurelion Sol, Kindred, and the like) or personalities/archetypes upped to 11 (Kayn the Edgelord, Xayah the Emogirl/ Rakan the Goofball) and then you keep these characters in isolation from each other (which prevents interesting scenarios like, what would an interaction between Veigar and Shyvana and Rakan end up being like?) then it leads to a very stale universe. It also doesn't help that League has set a very serious and mature tone in the vast majority of its recent lore. Only humor I recall recently was that Vastayah update with the Imperial British-like character peeping on Ahri. This makes it really hard to tie in more goofy characters like Heimerdinger, Blitzcrank with champs Riot keeps promoting ultra-serious and broody Darius and broody and mysterious Ahri.
The problem is cast size. Overwatch has a much smaller cast of characters which allows for stories to be more connected. League does not.
: another useless multiple choice survey.
Multiple choice answers can be turned into percentages. Text boxes have to be read individually.
: Bottom Lane NEEDS Lane Bullies, But Through Supports
: janna is funky
Maybe Riot should change her shield and bird?
: tank meta always turns into a stat check, once they're ahead no amount of farming is going to put you ahead of them, it all boils down to them missing or you went for a kiting build, and more often than not people dont build bork/frozen mallet. fair or not, its completely the same thing as an ahead carry just 1shotting you in the blink of an eye. except they do it to you over 10 seconds.
Though it does lead to longer teamfights where actually focusing and staying focused are rewarded.
Mogarl (NA)
: If the tank is the only source of magic damage on the team. You should have already lost.
: He only has one good leg which he limps on, though...
Say that to full crit Sion.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bubbaman73,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ojiMzeAf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-21T19:02:26.327+0000) > > Most of her damage isnt going to be her w procs anyway. let me stop you right here and tell you as someone who mains fighters and tanks, its not unusual to have 30% to 50% of your health dealt in true damage by silver bolts when facing vayne. against squishies youre correct and shes usually just bursting them out with crits, but beefier targets take a shitload of damage from her w. im not questioning her design as a counter to tanks and heavy fighters, but im questioning how she can access her w just passively by auto attacking with no way to play around the mechanic. the other max % health true damage mechanics are tied to a situational passive or micromanagement of a minigame mechanic that can be outplayed. what are you going to outplay in vaynes kit? her w and r are just passive steroids, her q and passive are mobility tools only she herself controls, and her e is a direct target disengage.
Arguably the thing she needs to manage more than anyone is kiting. Though frankly she has powerful self peel in her kit.
: Shen should also phase through minions because he is the Eye of Twilight and 2 foot tall dwarves shouldn't be able to stand in his way.
Sion shatters the earth. Small minions shouldn't impede him.
: He has 345 base movement speed which is among the highest in the game, and most mages start between 325 to 335. By the time he gets full boots/righteous glory/deadman's plate to go with his base movespeed he is moving at mach speeds all over the damn map.
: Watching the Orn trailer makes me wish lore meant something in League.
I don't think any moba has found a good way to tell a story about its gameplay without it being too restrictive.
: Making morally grey worlds doesn't mean making good and bad people exist on the same sides. It means creating a world in which one can understand, and possibly even sympathize with the decisions that are, by our morals, wrong. I actually don't hate the characterization of Noxus in the story, only for that it's underdeveloped. The internal struggle between adherents to the old way of Noxian strength, {{champion:92}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:91}} , and the heralds of the new {{champion:50}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:7}} is actually really fucking interesting and I'd love to see more about it. Unfortunately all this comic gave us was a few throwaway lines that tell as stuff we already know, because Darius' edgy romance was more 'interesting.'
> [{quoted}](name=JacctheInsomniac,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=y6Yk9QEd,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-21T18:22:33.832+0000) > > Making morally grey worlds doesn't mean making good and bad people exist on the same sides. > > It means creating a world in which one can understand, and possibly even sympathize with the decisions that are, by our morals, wrong. > And you cannot do that with Darius? You cannot relate to choosing something over the individual?
: well squishies can sit and spin because most adc's are still a threat to tanks even without armor shred. by far the biggest threat on an enemy team to a tank is the adc... even if the tank has nothing but armor on him. so i would ask the question: complaints from WHICH squishies? enemy ap carries? because ap carries dont take out tanks... they take out ad carries. theyre supposed to 1 shot enemy squishies, but not supposed to 1 shot tanks. ad carries take tanks. easily. regardless of the base damage of tanks.
Yes. I know. Believe me, I know.
: Ornn, the Fire Below the Mountain | Champion Trailer
So is Sejuani serving under Volibear now?
: the fact that dragon buffs persist all game is oppressive
: good thing riot has already addressed this issue by already giving tanks high base damage, so there is no reason to panic whatsoever
Except usually the complaints from squishies about tanks doing too much damage is because of those base damages.
: to be honest ive never had a problem jungle clearing with tanks. most of them have built in mechanics that allow them to clear the jungle in a very healthy way. malphite shields, chogath and maokai health for instance. this means that the level 2 3 and 4 ganks give an advantage to tanks, not carries. the higher base damage means more damage early, but most critically, tanks have better cc early. so they have more sustain, more cc, better early damage in general, and quite a few of them have mechanisms in their kit that allow them to farm out at a distance. tanks are fine
The higher base damage is what I mean. If tanks didn't have that, then they couldn't clear all that well.
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Ralanr

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