: hasnt he always scaled like shit? that was the point of panth is to steam roll a lane get ahead or fall off hard and be a liability
Yeah idk why people are suddenly saying his scaling sucks now. It's always sucked. I used to main him when the new rune system appeared. He scaled like crap.
: The reason top lane is a quote unquote "conqueror fiesta" is that almost all of the most-picked champions in the lane don't actually have another keystone. What should Aatrox take other than Conqueror? PTA? Yeah, sure, and fall off harder than old panth in late. Grasp? Maybe, and there are matchups where you definitely want it over conqueror, but 99.9% of the time, you might as well just take conqueror. How about Riven? Press the Attack? With enough damage to kill you 3 times over in the early without ever once auto attacking you? How about Aftershock, since she has a lot of hard cc! Hmm... Well that doesn't actually do pretty much anything for you. Grasp? No, you lose out on even more than Aatrox does with PTA. What about Darius? If you're into a lane bully, maybe you could make a case for Grasp, but other than that, Conqueror is the only truly viable keystone. What about Irelia? Fiora? Renekton? On and on, the historically really popularly picked champions in the top lane game are only able to take Conqueror, because a lot of them are drain tanks (renekton, aatrox, darius, etc.) Or just don't actually have anything really more viable to take. Don't blame bruiser players for Riot only really giving us a single keystone.
Wait, why can’t Aatrox take electrocute? And does Renekton take PTA because of how easy he can proc it?
: I agree with many of those arguments, but I would like to add that his roaming is overstated. At level 6 pushing is not very fast, and evena slight mis prediction of ult can put your behind. Unlike jayce he cannot clear as fast nor have the advantage of absolutely ridiculous poke damage, that is good late game for sieging and pantheon's poke is only good when its doing execute damage, which is counterintuitive to poke which aims to get people low from full health. ALso his duelign late game is weak, because he effectively has no ultimate in an 1vc1, and other bruisers outright outsustain him before he egts a second combo, while are tanky enough to survive his first combo comfortably.
Eh, I find his clearing with empowered Q very strong for wave pushing late game, so I never have a problem pushing a wave (I don't even bother using E for pushing). His late game dueling has always been weak. He fell off super hard because his only real goal was to put people as far behind as possible. I do think that Riot should make his late a bit better, but I don't expect them to make him that much better of a duelist.
: "Pantheon has talon level damage" is a lie. Pantheon needs changes
I think turning his scalings to base from bonus AD is a good call. Pantheon can't function like an assassin as he has no real escapes (something that many divers have more than he does) and because his W is so easy to peel off, he has no way to get onto a carry in a teamfight. This usually leads to Pantheon getting blown up super quickly if he's built like an assassin, whereas assassins like Talon or Zed (though Talon is generally easier to catch) have better escape tools. Allowing Pantheon to get more out of building Bruiser can let him better fufill a frontline role and be the diver he's supposed to be. His builds arguably should be closer to champions like {{champion:164}} {{champion:254}} and {{champion:64}}, but all three of these have some form of in built defense mechanics in their kit that they get from attacking or on a reasonable cooldown (Vi and Camille have shields from attacking (I think Vi does anyway) and Lee has a shield with his dash, and Lee dashes a lot). Pantheon meanwhile only has his new E, which while powerful, is on a long cooldown (though I wouldn't ask to buff him there). The closest champion to Pantheon's actual build is Jayce, a champion that builds no sustain and packs quite a few lethality items. This is because Jayce rarely ever goes into melee unless it's for his combo (and while in melee he has ways to peel himself). Jayce also doesn't have sustain, but he can get away with building DD, whereas Pantheon I feel can't risk getting DD because he blows up too quickly. It should be a good item on him, but he rarely gets it. Pantheon's own lack of escapes imo is also a key reason why he falls off. Pantheon's split power is decent, but when two to three enemy champions meet his push he pretty much has to outrun them or all in and hopefully take someone with him. Now, forcing a bunch of people to answer your push is good, but more durable champions can do the same and last longer, or more mobile champions can do the same and live, preventing any real gain on for the enemy team. Assassin Pantheon is at best a 1 for 1 champion late game, but there are better options for that. Hell, I think Renekton is the best lane bully choice for scaling because of his lockdown, letting him act as a psuedo tank late game by jumping in, stunning, and jumping out with enough durability to survive.
Dasdi96 (NA)
: You do realize this will kill tanks completely. Oh, and they will now be extra weak to %max damage.
The only way I could see this working is on Support tanks. Top and jungle tanks would get fucked.
: > [{quoted}](name=AS I LAY FEEDING,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YNEz9nBb,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-08-18T20:32:23.642+0000) > > He has 0 good runes, conq is shit. Why go aftershock when you got your E. Electrocute is bad, since you cant kill anybody anyway. Klepto/pta/phaseRush are the only decent ones. How is conquerer bad on him? E alone can get it fully stacked, and his empowered W is 4 stacks.
Sure, but you can get PTA off of empowered W alone.
: My pantheon build is using conqueror and bloodline instea dof tenacity tunes, and for secondary tree going bone plating + Overgrowth. (Bone plating gives you trade durability, overgorwth some tankiness.) While pta is better for damage conqueror is definitely my choice of rune, because of the sustain. If you are vs an especially hard lane tot rade with like garen, darius or renekton I'd just go with aftershock as a keystone My build is rather different. What I've foudn optimal for him is is either black cleaver (If tank matchup) or tri force (If non-tank matchup) as the ebst fiorst items followed by titanic hydra. It gives ya enough damage for your eatly to mid game and a good transition to the tankier build for late game (Steraks, DMP, Spirit visage is what I would suggest asa finish)
I usually run steraks after BC/Triforce. I haven't tried titanic outside of practice tool.
: All of these kept the core elements of the champion in tact I terms of gameplay. Poppy still E's u into walls to whack you with Qs. Yorick still sends ghouls fmto eat your face off. Still heals from minions, still summons a revenant with ulti and still splitpushes. Evelynn still sneaks around the map permastealthed b4 jumping someone. Taric still heals himself and nearby allies with Q. Still provides ambient armor to teammates with W and still Stuns with E. The only one who was significantly changed was Sion, and even then it was more like them adding so much stuff to his bare bones kit that he came out looking quite different as opposed to them.making him a different champion. Aayox tho? He is unrecognizable from his old self.outside his ultimate kinda fusing his passive with his old R. His gameplay plan osnt the same at all anymore he isnt a DPS duelist that keeps going and going and going. He is just a big standard generic bruiser now. And I say this as someone who never even liked pre rework Aatrox, ganeplaywise. Litterally negative bias.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4TAZvo9K,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-18T16:08:42.180+0000) > > All of these kept the core elements of the champion in tact I terms of gameplay. > > All Aatrox really kept was his focus on in combat healing.
KazKaz (OCE)
: That's not how a rework is supposed to go though :/
Sion, Poppy, Yorick, Evelynn, Taric, etc. A lot of reworks have involved changing so much of the champion that they might be an entirely new champion because they take the original concept and try to rebuild it from the ground up. Very few champions (Warwick, Ezreal, arguably Pantheon) act like more updating a champion's current kit to a modern style.
: Jayce is: A far superior lane bully Better throughout the game A very good poke champion Has quite surprisingly, often better burst than Pantheon Also jayce can splitpush semi effectively. So a poke heavy, splitpusher with a decent burst compareds to a melee nelow average pusher with high ttk. Old apnteon as trashy he was alte gam,e had much lower ttk, and much more spammablem ultimate that helped.
I agree. Honestly, it feels like Pantheon gets easily bullied by other bullies (Renekton especially is a nightmare for me). Granted, I might be using my runes wrong (I got PTA, Triumph, Tenacity, the one that does more damage to low health, then I grab manaflow band in lane and the CDR rune, and in jungle I replace band with water walking). Because of his inability to escape, I always feel too squishy in fights. In the jungle I find myself building cinderhulk to get extra durability throughout the game. I especially hate rushing things like Ghostblade because I'm not getting any durability out of it so I feel like I'm dying faster. I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't grab an AS shard and just do full AD with an armor shard. Though because he gets empowered through autos as well, I feel like some AS is useful.
: Those are big nerfs and also no, pantheon in his current state needs a buff, because of how he functions (The lanes vs lane bullies he looses and he scales worse than them, the lanes he wins he falls off too hards to keep meaningful lead with.) For a roamer he has terrible pushing power. For bruiser he lacks sustain, for an assassin he lacks menaingful and consistewnt way to get in burst range to an adc, and has too high of a ttk for an assassin, so no, he definitely needs buffs, because how meh he is for his role, a she cannot splitpush nor does he bring something too valuable (Except maybe peel, but that makes him a secondary support with no healing) to a teamfight. There definitely should be buffs even now, and especially if such big nerfs (And they are big nerfs) are applied. Also I would exchange the Q half nerf for the nerf of him not starting the game with 5 stacks as a nerf, because I think the invade pressure with that is extremely high
Pantheon, as an AD caster, has kinda always been a more risky Jayce (who also lacks sustain).
: His damage isn't really quite as impressive as you seem to think. The next time you're in a game with Pyke look at how much damage he does to champions in the post game stats. You'll be surprised at how low it actually is.
Really the only time Pyke’s damage is dangerous is when his execution comes into play. And that’s less him doing a lot of damage and more his execution ratio being high.
: Doesn't really mean much when the damage you do with it is virtually non-existent. It's like a Zhonya's you can still be CCd under since you can move and all.
Plus in teamfights all it takes is someone getting behind you to fuck you over. Or just hitting you from a direction not in front. AoE's and CC royally fuck him.
: His entire kit literally lost damage. All of it. The Q is the only thing basically the same damage numbers, and it has a higher cooldown but deals reduced damage if you aren't going all in. That his E shields everything in that direction (which feels very buggy, that can be a factor), and his Ultimate allegedly being able to impact a fight more consistently, is what probably made Riot release him on a weaker spectrum of stats, but functional enough to see how he could perform. I'm relatively certain that his buffs were already mapped out whether that be to mana, cooldowns, or adding a slow on his ultimate -- before even releasing him on live and they were just testing the waters.
I've noticed they've reduced his ult damage. His old ult at max did 1000 magic damage base (but since no one got hit by it, it wasn't noticeable) now it deals 700 at max. Though there's less of a warning this time so it's easier to hit people.
: From what I'm seeing the problem is that there's very little damage on his E when people were expecting there to be a lot. He definitely does the same damage, but it appears to have been shifted almost entirely onto his Q. If he actually received any buff to his E he'd be unbearable to lane against considering the invincibility he gets.
I don't get where people were expecting his E to hurt. His old E never felt that impactful when I mained him up to season 5. And with the defense mechanic, the damage is more or less a bonus.
: If there's a 1v1 tournament between all tanks, who would come out on top?
Arguably whoever has the most DPS would win. So my money is on Tahm or Shen.
: Galio might be useful again if his E could dash through walls again.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2019-08-12T16:34:52.571+0000) > > Isn’t her escape her ult? Yes
So, you’re saying that Eve can’t choose to maximize her damage unless her ult is up to escape.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sillae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-08-12T16:21:35.072+0000) > > .......? Fizz has a free mobile zhonyas every few seconds, multiple dashes and perma ghost effect, and Evelynn has to charge up her charm for 2.5 seconds (and her only escape is her high cooldown ult that is needed against most targets when not 12/0 levels of fed) The cooldown on Fizz's E is a number. I'm talking about design. If he chooses to maximize his damage, he has no escape. If Eve chooses to maximize her damage, she still has an escape. That's the aspect I was focused on.
: Armor can block damage from abilities that deal physical damage as well as basic attacks, while Jax E is only immune to basic attacks.
Doesn’t his E also reduce damage from AoE’s? Not that I disagree with you.
: Please balance the tanks, that's not funny anymore
You have no counterplay to her resistances? You’re Yasuo. Your ult gives you armor pen (granted you need to build crit, but that’s what you build on Yasuo).
: So using that logic we should give tanks Massive Base Damage's, and Massive Ratios. NO What makes a TANK a TANK is the kit. ANY ONE can build tank items and "tank". But TANKS should be DESIGNED around TANKING, ABSORBING DAMAGE. And if you look at ABILITIES that absorb damage TANKS have some of the weakest ones IF they even have them at all. {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:105}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:2}} new {{champion:80}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:107}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:157}} have better absorbing abilities than TANKS like {{champion:54}} {{champion:32}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:154}} And some of those are Assassins/ADCs WHICH SHOULD NEVER have better damage absorbing abilities than TANKS.
Tanks do have high base damage actually. The difference between tank defense and special fighter/assassin defense is that it’s more gated by Cooldowns than tanks, who pretty much always have it on. This is also why it’s a massive problem when assassins build tank. Tank Ekko was someone you had to kill twice, which became exceptionally hard with how difficult he is to catch and how durable he became.
: It's okay RIOT is giving all the new reworked Assassin/duelist the stats they need to be giving to tanks. %Damage reduction or flat out ignoring damage. {{champion:39}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:114}} Good design philosophy there!
They aren't going to build defense, so they need tools to survive a fight somewhat longer. Tanks are going to build defense, so they don't need as powerful tools.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Divin1ty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xbjw88Iu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-05T17:14:09.032+0000) > > Not really. > Armor Items are great, pen is strong too but that is okay. > But now you look at MR and you see that it gives very little MR **and** the items aren't really worth buying PLUS Mages have superior Pen AND higher Numbers. And still cant kill tanks because their CDs are too lengthy.
Yeah, if anything, mages are better against people who build one or zero MR items. As a tank, I've always been fine with building one to two MR items when needed. DPS mages hurt, but that's kinda the point of DPS mages and adaptive helm.
: Sion QoL change -- Make his ultimate zoom out (like on Nunu's snowball)
I’d rather not. Nunu’s snowball is a lot easier to control in comparison.
: Nerf Yordles (not tft related)
Hey man, when you’re small you gotta fight to your strengths. Asking a yordle to fight fair is like asking a rabbit to slow down while the wolf is after them.
: New Sylas is just an actually viable version of galio mid.
Honestly I don’t think Galio needs sustain. Him not having his W be cancelled by hard CC imo is something that he needs.
: Wow riot, thanks for getting rid of tt. just another way of showing you dont care.
> [{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6kT26Vcn,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-31T19:15:12.870+0000) > > because why not get rid of the mode instead of just **updating it for the 8 of us** that play it? Because that's not cost-effective.
: Pantheon E can block tower shots?????
His old passive could block tower shots. His E is on a much higher Cooldown. He’ll be blocking towers less now.
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: i think if you give pantheon fiora's w on his E he would be completely fucking broken, people seem to be forgetting that fioras W also chunks the fuck out of your dps in a 1v1 even if she doesn't block shit with it.
Fiora’s parry also redirects hard CC to where she’s pointing. Pantheon’s E blocks damage, but not CC.
Snowbrand (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkQRnL3g,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-30T17:23:23.388+0000) > > As a Diver he needs to be limited in his ability to escape, as they get more punished if they go in poorly. That's not true tho? You have Vi for example that have free mobility or Camille that is the same. You get punished when you reached you destination, but you have to burn your diving tools for it.
And Pantheon is using his Diving tools to engage.
Snowbrand (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MkQRnL3g,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-30T15:46:25.310+0000) > > Probably to keep him from having an escape. Yea, could make sense. But why is an escape bad? And why put his stun on the jump? it makes for less outplays and more binary ways to play. But, the rework is still good. Just don't like they kept his W the same.
As a Diver he needs to be limited in his ability to escape, as they get more punished if they go in poorly.
Pika Fox (NA)
: He also likely had the auto crit execute mechanic adjusted/removed, and likely his W cc adjusted. Theres more shuffling than just Q = skillshot. His passive also got changed. His passive was *huge* for his gameplay.
Yeah. His E is his new defensive mechanic. Every diver has a powerful defensive mechanic.
Snowbrand (EUW)
: They should've let go of Pantheons point and click stun too
Probably to keep him from having an escape.
Ralanr (NA)
: Have you not read the lore that explains that? The lore that showcases the trickster?
The curse they have gives zero reasoning on why they’d look cursed?
: Pantheon's New Kit
I might return to being a Panth main. I’m conflicted.
: Google aatrox, rhaast then look at nasus renekton and azir.
Have you not read the lore that explains that? The lore that showcases the trickster?
: They were the ascendant. And their leader died and they went red and grew horns.
Where did they grow horns and go red? Which story are you getting this from?
: Them going mad has little to no sense and killing each other and putting the whole world in chaos. Them going from normal ascendant to red demons... Aatrox being this overpowered for no reason. These make little to no sense. And these are few that I got off top of my head
Them going mad makes no sense? Do you mean before they were made into weapons? Have you ever seen a kingdom or government collapse when the main power structure is gone? When Azir and all of Shurima was lost, that creates a power vacuum. And while all the ascended worked for Shurima, that doesn’t mean they saw eye to eye (hell, Renekton and Nasus didn’t agree with each other on how war should work). So with the main governing body gone, it becomes free game on whoever believes or wants to rule what remains of the kingdom. As for demons, I’m pretty sure that’s just what people ended up calling them after they burned down everything in their homes and killed hundreds. As for being red, I don’t remember any of the ascended being described as red demons in the story that revealed the creation of the Darkin.
: We don't know their origin was unknown. The current lore has them like this and has issues.
Issues like what? The Darkin being cursed ascended?
: But that isn't what the fans want? Isn't it?
Short answer: yes. Long answer: Aatrox wants revenge and his old form back. I don’t see Aatrox as simply wanting to stay dead, more as him angry at what he’s been turned into and wishing for revenge.
: Trap them because the writers wanted them to. Because the darkin were demonic weapons before they were retconned. It literally makes little to no sense to trap them and keep them in the mortal world where they can be set free and destroy everything apparently.
Pretty sure the Darkin were just a race of winged beings before they were retconned. The current lore has the Darkin be weapons, former ascended cursed to take that form.
mack9112 (NA)
: How could a sword kill itself
Yeah, I don’t think OP remembers that Aatrox is the sword, and the body is a host.
Rioter Comments
Teh Song (NA)
: Why are so many of the anti tank mechanics on other tanks?
It allows them to trade against other tanks and fighters. %damage that isn’t true damage is hurt a lot by resistances.
: [Champion Rework] Pantheon
I think their concepts video references the ability to draw a sword. So I thought that was a fun callback.
: Well. They removed his armor. Taking him from the character with the best designed armor in the game to the worst. His spear and shield are over-designed in ways that would actually hinder its use in combat. He now has a bunch of glowing crap around his head so I can no longer ignore the space crap. So yeah. I hate it. And that’s me done, guys. To Bioluminescence, you are hands down the best spokesperson for a company I’ve ever had the pleasure of interacting with. Keep being the positive map loving influence you are. To Ralanr working with you was great. Keep being awesome man. To everyone else, I sincerely hope you continue to enjoy the game. Peace out.
: [EDITED BY MODERATION - ULANOPO] So i dont blame you and ill explain. When liss is using her ult she is trading survivability for a 2.5second hold. it's a 1 for 1 trade. plus she is squishy with very little escape tool. Morde on the other hand is isolating a carry of his chosing for 7second while stealing his stats and if he wins he keeps the stats for the remainder of the fight. So how does the trade work???? morde uses 1spell that is a point and clicks to gain an upper hand in 1v1 because he slows and gains a percentage of the enemy stats. Second he isolates the enemy carry. Third he removes the enemy team's damage potential and fourth even if he doesnt win. He has successfully stopped the enemy carry from contributing in the fight while his own team's carries is dealing damage. So what do we have here? 1 for 3-4. That is way too low risk high reward and simply unfun to play against.
> [{quoted}](name=Average Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5xprAWE8,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-23T23:29:58.649+0000) > > **[EDITED BY MODERATION - ULANOPO]** So i dont blame you and ill explain. When liss is using her ult she is trading survivability for a 2.5second hold. it's a 1 for 1 trade. plus she is squishy with very little escape tool. Morde on the other hand is isolating a carry of his chosing for 7second while stealing his stats and if he wins he keeps the stats for the remainder of the fight. So how does the trade work???? morde uses 1spell that is a point and clicks to gain an upper hand in 1v1 because he slows and gains a percentage of the enemy stats. Second he isolates the enemy carry. Third he removes the enemy team's damage potential and fourth even if he doesnt win. He has successfully stopped the enemy carry from contributing in the fight while his own team's carries is dealing damage. So what do we have here? 1 for 3-4. That is way too low risk high reward and simply unfun to play against. Bolded what didn't need to be said. As for you explanation, Lissandra is losing her survival, but she has taken out someone from the fight for 2.5 seconds, 2.5 seconds she can help her team fight the enemy team. Meanwhile Mordekaiser takes himself and the other target out for 7 seconds, removing the ability for both to interact with in the fight. I will agree that Mordekaiser shouldn't be stealing stats from the enemy carry right away when he ults his target. That just makes it a better Trundle ult. But Mordekaiser is simply removing himself from the teamfight as he is with another target. And it is possible for a target to survive against Mordekaiser or outlast him for the full seven seconds. Avoiding his E and he has no way of catching you (This is why he builds scepter). Whether that ult is broken in the future and needs to be changed is up to Riot in the end. So far, they haven't found it to be the main problem with his kit. If it is in the future, then they'll be hitting it. If not, then it doesn't matter if you're plat, you can have a wrong opinion regardless of rank.
: You dont seem to understand the core issue. Why morde is unbalance, His damage output or his survivability is not what im talking about. Some things are fundamentally broken. His ult is what breaks the game. By removing heavy damage dealer in some comp literally breaks the entire team.
So the issue is time? Because Lissandra can do this with her ult for a shorter time. And she stays to do shit.
Sillae (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txBdhAiL,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-22T14:15:01.639+0000) > > No one on the boards was asking for a removal of defense to buff his damage. At the very least, there’s no way a large portion of the boards yelled for this. maybe I should have put /s to emphasize sarcasm
Sorry man. So many idiots on the boards I can’t tell what’s being serious.
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