: When riot talks to you about champions and game health just assume its bullshit. They have no idea what is healthy for their game or we wouldn't be where we are now. Remember that these are the same people that let old Urgot rot down in the 30's and low 40's on winrate because "hitting a short range, slow moving skillshot to GAREN-tee damage was overpowered and toxic in lane Who then allowed a character like ZOE to hit live. Never assume Riot knows what they're doing, because you'd make an ass of you and me.
> [{quoted}](name=MetalGearTeemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kfRBgP5j,comment-id=00000003000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-11T21:38:33.167+0000) > > > > Never assume Riot knows what they're doing, because you'd make an ass of you and me. Maybe you, but I have _some_ faith in Riot's ability to keep this game functioning. After all, it's a popular online game for what, ten years? That's pretty impressive.
: > [{quoted}](name=PaffWasTaken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kfRBgP5j,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-04-10T23:42:35.454+0000) > > Literally had an almost permanently sub-50% winrate for all of his existence until mere weeks before his rework when he graduated to a near perfect 50%. If this is deemed unhealthy, then about 100 champions of the whole roster or more should be erased from the game in a similar manner if any of this makes sense Isolating winrate gives a very poor picture. He had a low winrate, incredibly low playrate, and his kit was incredibly feast or famine. Aatrox was considered a champ that either couldn’t get his items and was absolutely useless, or he could and could 1v9, with little room in-between. You can’t just cite winrate and say “oh, he was fine”.
I’m surprised more people don’t realize old Aatrox was intentionally kept weak for a reason. It’s kinda like old Poppy (though not as nuts). The base kit couldn’t allowed to be strong.
Seen (NA)
: Is it just me or grasp is weak
Grasp is better for laning than teamfights.
: No, whenever any toplaner is barely playable people lose their shit. They just cannot stand to get their missplays punished which is what bruisers do best same as assassins. They aren't hated for no reason they are hated because bad players can't deal with them. Most of the hate btw comes from botlane mains anyways who are used to just statcheck the other adc to death or come lategame stand infront of a tank and mow them down, they cannot do that to a heca so they cry. Or a jax. Or an olaf.
Wait isn’t Hecarim a jungler?
: 2019 and stat check champions still exist in League.
All games will have some level of statchecking, Riot can’t remove it all. Though Yasuo is a bad example considering his mobility and tools that rely on reaction. A better example of stat checking is someone like Shyvana, who literally runs you down and only punches you.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekd6EMR0,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-27T05:32:34.605+0000) > > And what I mean is that the counterplay to his ult is terrain. The OP meant the terrain DOES stop the ult but also it disappears.
: What I mean is that Sion's ult breaks terrain, but sion finishes ulting as he hits terrain, similar to how sion gets stopped when he hits terrain right now.
And what I mean is that the counterplay to his ult is terrain.
: Can Sion's ult remove champion created terrain, like ornn's E?
: I don't care if its meant or not. It is annoying
So is the shirt I’m wearing at my fathers birthday but it’s something I deal with.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A2L3vdHE,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-03-25T23:00:56.848+0000) > > Please tell me you’re fucking joking with that “not a real tank” comment. No. Im not. Just because a champion functions as a tank does not mean they are one - you can generally tell by what a champion scales with and their overall mobility. Sion scales very well with AD, and while he functions well as a tank... You generally want to build {{item:3053}} and {{item:3748}} on him unless the enemy team cant deal with you because you got ahead. Thats part of the defining tanks and non-tanks comment in the OP though. Sion could be tuned to be a proper tank - replacing his Q AD ratio with resistance scaling for example - but as he is now hes leaning to far to the juggernaut/bruiser spectrum to be called a real tank.
It’s not build or scaling that defines a role, it’s how a kit functions. Sion has 3 forms of CC, two of which are hard and 1 of which is meant for teamfight engage. Juggernauts barely get a single form of hard CC. Sion isn’t a juggernaut because he has AD scalings, scalings don’t matter (Ornn and Poppy have them, they aren’t juggernauts). Sion is, and always has been since his rework, an engage tank and I say this as someone with over 500K mastery on him. Also, Proto-juggernaut is not a thing.
: Leauge of annoying champions
Glad for your opinion. I don’t disagree that a lot of annoying things exist in this game, but new stuff isn’t always meant to not be annoying to everyone.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A2L3vdHE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-25T22:26:30.437+0000) > > So we're just ignoring that Sion actually does hurt more than most tanks? Which is generally because all of his abilities are super telegraphed and easier to play around than other tanks? > > Just want to be clear. Sion and nautilus already have shields and feel good as tanks, they wouldnt be a part of the balance pass. ~~But sion is a proto-juggernaut and scales off AD; hes not a real tank unfortunately. Just functions very well as one like Mundo and Volibear.~~
Please tell me you’re fucking joking with that “not a real tank” comment.
Paroe (NA)
: You know what tanks feel really good to play?
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A2L3vdHE,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-25T21:56:48.333+0000) > > > > Can we give a sweeping rework to the tank class to lower damage and give them all shields? > So we're just ignoring that Sion actually does hurt more than most tanks? Which is generally because all of his abilities are super telegraphed and easier to play around than other tanks? Just want to be clear.
: > [{quoted}](name=taleofsonata,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6e7HX2os,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2019-03-25T01:25:43.693+0000) > > I like how you listed every top lane champions. {{champion:67}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:78}} ......
Vayne and Karma do not belong in top lane imo.
: If sylas is going to exist he has to be way less safe and easy..
Frankly I think that if they remove something from his kit, whether for balance or because they’ve finally made AP bruiser items to help the class, it’ll be his shield. I know everyone hates kingslayer, but that heal is pretty much half of the ability, you’d have to remake the ability entirely if you remove the heal (or replace it with DR, idk). The shield on his E feels tacked on imo.
: They fucked with the jungle with scuttle which killed his level 3 power spike , then increased Tiamat price but all we got is +2 base AD I wanna call PETA
PETA would more likely put him down because “it’s the responsible thing to do.”
Crocele (NA)
: which keystone for poppy?
Grasp is good because it gives her sustain and she can proc it with her shield.
: Of course I'm going to go for a kill in which I completely outfought my oponent. My brain process is that if I dodge the enemie's main ability twice and they tank tower shots I should win that fight regardless of the situation. No champ in this game has ever killed me making that many mistakes and tanking tower on top of that just with a slight item lead and a lvl above.
So basically you got greedy and overstepped.
: > Darius can be a suffering experience Thats the point, and he is not weak against ganks, so as a jungler i have to think twice before doing a gank (like illaoi).
Frankly you should think twice when you gank in general. But Darius is pretty much at his strongest in lane. He’s still susceptible to ganks because he has no escapes. The best examples of ganks that hurt him involve locking him down heavily so he can’t get a good angle for his Q. Darius is strong in lane, he’s always been strong in lane and always against tanks. He’s basically a lane counter to them.
: I check your OP.GG and i found you send afk a Malphite in your last Darius match.
Yeah that was a weird game. I think I killed him twice and he dced, which imo is a dick move. Laning against Darius can be a suffering experience, but depriving your team of a fourth player (that has a good engage ult) is just a selfish move. I primarily play tanks but that doesn’t mean I don’t try to branch out (I originally started to play Darius to learn how to beat him as a tank. So far I have no answer beyond not giving him kills).
: Being a tank in this game SUCKS
I can understand you chasing Darius because he’s low and you think you can kill him. But you sadly got a bit too greedy and didn’t respect his stacks until it was too late.
Kohlberg (NA)
: {{champion:412}}
He belongs in a subclass called Catchers. Which is a really shitty subclass name despite it being accurate of what they do.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bAwEYTnT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-20T17:32:50.244+0000) > > Why not just have them be built from something else instead of removing a core feature from a compenent item? Tbh, it’s because people will whine “tank meta, tank meta” if we ever give tanks more than we take away from them
People will whine of metas regardless. That doesn’t mean you should remove core abilities from component items at full build just so you can appease people who hate tanks anyway.
: New tank items idea.
Why not just have them be built from something else instead of removing a core feature from a compenent item?
: The nature of Irelia gives her kill pressure even when behind
Honestly I never liked how strong Irelia’s waveclear was with her Q last hit ability, as it felt impossible to actually shut her down and she always seemed to have a good early (but I’m not an expert on Irelia so her early might have really been bad).
: > [{quoted}](name=Infernape,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OuyY1dXy,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-19T11:50:49.606+0000) > > Poppy is supposed to straddle the line between tank and fighter. Triforce is supposed to be lucrative on her. That's true, I guess I should instead say that I personally don't like how Triforce is the go-to if Poppy wants damage. I feel it locks out other bruiser items that Poppy wants to build but won't because Tri is always just all around better. I want to be able to shuffle between Cleaver, Deadmans, Hydra, Triforce ect depending on the situation, rather than just full tank or full tank + Triforce depending on what damage output I want.
Honestly Poppy could probably get away with BC if she’s going Bruiser. Triforce is just generally better (I think it’s a better option for most BC users currently but I can’t remember).
Juice (EUNE)
: No, it makes Shen harder to play and without gimmicks that make diving Shen completely impossible. Trust me, I used to play Shen for 3-4 years
Harder to play? I’m sorry I don’t understand. Are you saying Vorpal blade under tower was difficult?
Juice (EUNE)
: You mean all the autofill top players rejoice, the go-to braindead hypertank is coming back ? ...Yay Revert Shen
You realize a revert just makes Shen safer and harder to punish right?
: I’ll be one that wants a rework on him. I like his theme of being anti-AD stone monster tank, but he doesn’t fully feel that way, with a lot of strength more in his ultimate, especially the AP ratio. Personally, true tank Malphite (as he should be) > AP assassin Malphite. His model needs updated, as he looks nothing like his splash and he’s tiny. Pretty sure Sion has a bigger model than he does. Kit-wise, I feel he’s got too much locked into his ultimate. A multi-target Knockup as fast as it is, and with that base damage and scaling is incredibly strong, and sucks up a lot of power. His W active feels off at times. E is ok, it’s armor scaling is nice, just the debuff isn’t really noticeable outside of hitting an auto attacker. Q consumes so much of his mana that it hurts, and I feel they could do something more useful with it than an MS steal if power shifted from his ult. My opinion, he feels like he should have either the grounded debuff, because ground, an armor shatter debuff, like rocks crushing armor or breaking walls, or a snare, like forming an earth cage or something like that, on something. His hyper-armor and armor scaling would be the core of his kit to me though, maybe E along with that due to its armor scaling, and his ult secondary to that.
Malphite could be a terrain creation tank, building walls and structures to lock down targets. It’s not a great idea but I think it’s unique.
: Should malphite get a rework?
I believe so. But if they give him a stronger base kit they’d have to take power from his ult. That would annoy people.
: Riot heres how to nerf champions correctly
So you want to kill Morgana’s 3 second root?
: Then what about Skarner's ult? Skarner can't auto during his ult status, so it isn't particularly useful in a duel. Skarner's ult is used for the team, as Maokai's cc is used for the team.
That’s generally why Skarner’s classification has been so wonky. I’m not a fan of calling him a diver, but I’m just assuming if he gets reworked again they’ll push him to be more like a diver.
: Darius has decent engage with his E. Garen and skarner can force an engage with sheer movement speed. A single E from illaoi can force a fight to occur. Skarner also has 3 cc tools, with 2 hard cc in his kit. Not sure if utility would exclude what defines a juggernaut here.
That short ranged hook is not an engage. And movement speed boosts can be canceled by a simple slow. That’s like saying Mundo is a Vanguard. Those are not team engages. Those are selfish boost to kits.
: ...Skarner's E is a slow, which can then be a stun. That's 3 forms of cc, 2 forms of hard lockdown. Furthermore, as what skarner's role is is iffy, as he was in the juggernaut rework patch, but is played like a diver.... similarly to how maokai is classified as a tank yet plays like a juggernaut...?
I’ll admit I don’t remember Skarner’s kit. Because he doesn’t play like a juggernaut. He’s more about engaging and peeling.
: How a champion plays and how they're listed can be different. For example, skarner. Skarner was listed as a juggernaut, but played a bit like a diver, so now his roll is iffy, but may lean towards a diver. Similarly, Maokai might be listed as a tank, but his base damage can be compared and is quite notable compared to other juggernauts. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/garen https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Maokai/ https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Darius/ https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Sion/ I would also throw in illaoi's, but her damage doesn't show for her passive and Q sadly I know these champions all differ, with two of them having executes, but their damage is notably similar, and since both do well in the middle of the enemy team, I would personally classify maokai as a juggernaut
Maokai has too much CC and utility to classify as a juggernaut. Just because Maokai has high base damage doesn’t mean he’s a damage character. Juggernauts also lack teamfight engage potential, which Maokai has. And please stop calling Sion a juggernaut. His overall DPS is low comparatively and he’s more focused on engaging and locking down targets than doing damage. I say this as someone with 500K mastery on him.
: Darius has a pull followed by a slow, and has an auto attack that slows. Skarner's ult literally holds you down as he drags you towards his team.
Darius’s pull is not a lock down, his combo is generally more selfish. Skarner is not a juggernaut but a diver, and even so that’s the only hard CC in his kit. Tanks generally have two to three hard CC abilities.
: Well I'll take that L then, but I will say this: Sion's playstyle is incredibly similar to that of a Juggernaut. He want's to be in the middle of the enemy, do damage and hold them down, while acting like a meatshield. Only difference is, most of his damage occurs after he dies. Vanguard as he might be, I still would consider him a juggernaut IMO. On a unrelated side note, he's technically the undead juggernaut. I know that means nothing in gameplay, but just throwing it out there.
Juggernauts don’t lock people down.
: SIon and poppy are considered juggernauts, yet have decent damage, with even better sustain with their shields and resistances. Sion and poppy both have dashes (though sion's dash is his ult), and skarner has a decent mobility spell that lasts a while. Morde is also considered a juggernaut, yet his damage isn't at a massive cap, but rather at a constant dps. Damage doesn't define the juggernaut, but how long the juggernaut can fight with sustain and resistances, in exchange for large mobility.
No. No they are not. Sion and Poppy are tanks. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses This is not hard to look up.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TFrFdtbQ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T22:58:12.757+0000) > > How is he not squishy? He doesn’t build like Irelia or Jax. free shield. Hyper mobility. Conq. a wall of damage immunity that defies all logic. builds GA, and often times mallet/Steraks.
Shield can pop in an AA Mobility doesn’t make him actually durable. He’s given that level of mobility because of how squishy he is compared to fighters. Conquerer wasn’t designed with him in mind. Windwall only blocks projectiles and as a gameplay mechanic, it functions properly. Logic doesn’t function in this game, else blinds wouldn't affect Lee. Finally, those are final build items. Compared to other fighters, he’s pretty squishy. He just builds a lot of sustain.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TFrFdtbQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-13T22:56:00.066+0000) > > I think hard CC and being squishy are general weaknesses for him. he isn't squishy... and hard CC is literally everyones "counter" so that doesn't even count. lol. Besides, hes so overloaded he can build a QSS second.
How is he not squishy? He doesn’t build like Irelia or Jax.
: Ironically, Yasuos only weakness is...
I think hard CC and being squishy are general weaknesses for him.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RLXw2uNo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:45:37.988+0000) > > Gnar isn’t a diver though... i still dont understand whats supposed to make him not a diver though. he ults into the enemy team and his mobility is just all in. he e's onto an enemy champion and reactivates it to keep sticking (mostly to stay in range of his q). he doesnt have the "in and out" kind of playstile of a skirmisher. including his passive which is basically just there to give him a second health bar after he dived in. hes just an all in type of champion, and every mobility tool he has is only forward oriented.
Riot does it weird by separating mini Gnar and mega Gnar in classifications. But since from my understanding Gnar goes in to CC as many people at once, I consider him a Vanguard.
Moody P (NA)
: Riot has abandoned juggernauts so I will too
Gnar isn’t a diver though...
: Animations that don’t lie to you.
Hit boxes in this game are rather wonky. I learned a long time ago that if it looks like it’s barely going to hit me I’m not far away enough to avoid it. Can’t Neo bullet dodge this shit.
Monlyth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJEELPdV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-12T13:32:29.159+0000) > > Anything with decent amount of damage, grievous wounds, and can run Conq will kill him in seconds. Tanks are paper in this meta. Hmm. Well, in the game I was playing against him, he shrugged off the damage from 3+ champions on multiple occasions. Our composition was Mordekaiser Top, Miss Fortune Bot, Kayle Support, Akali Mid, and Jax Jungle, and we were behind for most of the game.
Being behind on snowball champions was probably why.
: I do run grasp and I go Aftershock too. I think Aftershock is great in the right moments, but otherwise lackluster. Grasp is merely decent, however, I take it because I just don't want the new conquerors that badly, and the only two runes in the precision tree I currently like on him are the attack speed one and the tenacity one, so I don't find the tree generally worthwhile. I think if grasp was just a little better healing or a little bit more bonus hp from it would be nice, as long as it wasn't broken and abused by ranged champs. Ranged champs ruin so many things sadly.
Huh. You’re the first bruiser main who hasn’t outright told me that grasp is broken.
: Old conquerors was stupid and actually hurt Darius, because there were far better scaling champs with no true damage or armor/magic pen in their kits who got far more efficient use out of it (aka, Jax, irelia (maybe she has some true damage in kit, but I'm not sure), you (had true damage but still far more efficient user of conq than dar), tryndamere, Yas, etc. In fact, old conquerors was terribly unhealthy design and bad for the game, it made champs like Darius less unique and less useful. Need a true damage tank buster? Pick literally any bruiser. Want a late game champ with good early game? Pick Jax, irelia, tryn, or yasuo and take conquerors. Bam. Early game weakness removed. Darius was hardly even useful because there were hardly any tanks to destroy top lane, and other conq users would melt right through his beefiness no matter what items he built. I'd much rather just have a better survivability ruin on Darius since his damage is fine.
So why not grasp for survivability?
: I dont know we already have azir, kayle and rageblade neeko for that. How about A tank assasin? It could go he has a 1:1 armor, hp and mr conversion into ad ratio in his passive. So he gets like 3,300 AD if he has that much HP + whatever his armor and mr are. That could be good.
Kinda like Pyke.
Moody P (NA)
: I play mostly top lane and I really hate this scuttle meta tbh. I would rather go back to season 4 or 5 jungle (cinderhulk/sated BS aside) where junglers would actually farm instead of sitting on my ass for the first 6 minutes of the game Miss me with this vertical shit
Didn't junglers farm more because of things like sated?
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