TheGrot (NA)
: Adaptive Helm: Killer of Diversified Meta
That doesn't look that diverse. It's all mages.
Estrynund (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgXjA0cE,comment-id=0016000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T15:23:13.903+0000) > > How is weak to kiting not a weakness? I'm not giving tanks high levels of mobility here, just really telegraphed damage patterns. When champions are very tanky and still deal damage, it becomes a huge balance problem. It was present for a short while after Darius' update, and Poppy's. Both were repeatedly nerfed. If a champion can survive tons of hits and be difficult to kill, but also deal damage, there is no room for any other champions. Sure you could say "But it's telegraphed", now every immobile champion in the game is at a huge disadvantage against that one tank, and so you've just butchered the meta with a rusty knife. Furthermore, it leads to a huge lack of clarity in identity and gameplay, when tanks deal damage and are tanky, are they really tanks? What separates them then from overpowered juggernauts? As a player on the enemy team, do you focus that tank to stop it dealing damage, and waste tons of time, or ignore it and take tons of damage in a teamfight? Tanks don't really deal damage for a reason.
> [{quoted}](name=Estrynund,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgXjA0cE,comment-id=00160000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T22:03:24.180+0000) > > >If a champion can survive tons of hits and be difficult to kill, but also deal damage, there is no room for any other champions. That's a very narrow way of thinking. >Sure you could say "But it's telegraphed", now every immobile champion in the game is at a huge disadvantage against that one tank, and so you've just butchered the meta with a rusty knife. Because you need a dash or a blink to dodge a telegraphed ability? No you don't, and just because League has been overloaded with mobility doesn't mean that you need it to avoid everything. It's a crutch at this point. ADC mains don't even know what orbwalking or kiting is on immobile marksmen! >Furthermore, it leads to a huge lack of clarity in identity and gameplay, when tanks deal damage and are tanky, are they really tanks? What separates them then from overpowered juggernauts? As a player on the enemy team, do you focus that tank to stop it dealing damage, and waste tons of time, or ignore it and take tons of damage in a teamfight? > My own argument is that Juggernauts are a lot more reliable with their damage while tanks with telegraphed abilities generate threat **because** of how dangerous it is for those abilities to land. With how slow they are however, it gives ample time to avoid. This is why you don't focus the tank in the teamfight, you simply do your best to avoid them. They are zoning you. > Tanks don't really deal damage for a reason. {{champion:14}}: Yeah about that...I hurt a lot and all of my abilities are really telegraphed and have a lot of counterplay. If anything, I might be considered the most well designed champion in the game. I am a tank, I do lots of damage. I am proof that it is possible.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OQJJFjBE,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2017-04-29T19:16:16.157+0000) > > Assists and CS mean a lot as well. Yeah but just having decent CS and being able to oneshot is stupid. That's because everyone can oneshot post lvl ~6 without any kills or trading, which is, in my opinion, completely dumb. Oneshot potential is just too high as it is. Taking a bad trade should result in needing to back and missing CS/taking tower damage, or dying if I choose to stick around after. Right now, taking a bad trade means death.
Yeah, especially in laning imo.
: Honestly, I just don't like that my 0/10 lane opponent can still oneshot me because I didn't build bruiser.
Assists and CS mean a lot as well.
: {{champion:50}} {{item:3157}}
{{champion:14}}: Mages OP plz nerf.
: Ain't really fair when Tanks can use said abilities in bushes, and oh, Sion is a convenient example for that. It makes absolutely no sense that an axe the size of an entire bush can be hidden in a bush and deal massive AoE damage + stun everyone without any visuals. Having tanks like that would at the best raise attention to everyone that the WHOLE team needs Sightstone unless they want to approach a bush and get OS'd by a tank gank.
> [{quoted}](name=Envoy of Melody,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgXjA0cE,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2017-04-29T15:30:16.858+0000) > > Ain't really fair when Tanks can use said abilities in bushes, and oh, Sion is a convenient example for that. **It makes absolutely no sense that an axe the size of an entire bush can be hidden in a bush and deal massive AoE damage + stun everyone without any visuals**. Having tanks like that would at the best raise attention to everyone that the WHOLE team needs Sightstone unless they want to approach a bush and get OS'd by a tank gank. http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/6bcf3fa058ee8d9289031932df9d45f8.jpg We don't use irl logic in this game.
Sharjo (EUW)
: Sadism and bdsm are not intrinsically linked. Evelynn can be a sadist without being dressed like a stereotypical domme.
Estrynund (EUW)
: So your argument for giving a class absolutely no weaknesses is ">Can no one dodge?" What are you, bronze?
> [{quoted}](name=Estrynund,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgXjA0cE,comment-id=001600000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T15:14:17.640+0000) > > So your argument for giving a class absolutely no weaknesses is > ">Can no one dodge?" > > What are you, bronze? How is weak to kiting not a weakness? I'm not giving tanks high levels of mobility here, just really telegraphed damage patterns.
: To be fair. Back then League was more of a "game" and less of a "competitive Sport"
I was going to say most people do.
Estrynund (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IgXjA0cE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-28T15:44:06.020+0000) > > And had the knowledge to program anything, I'd make them provide threat through zoning by having heavily telegraphed abilities that REALLY hurt when they land. Basically a mountain punching you will hurt by the sheer weight alone, and it'll be so slow that you can see it coming a mile away and have enough time to dodge. > > But not every tank can be as glorious as Sion. and you'd ruin the game by giving tanks damage, we'd have poppy style complaint threads everywhere and you'd become a meme, renowned by the community for stupidity. GL
: Tankiest champ
{{champion:78}} I'd argue for.
: It only takes that one Xpeke or 4-man win and you're inspired forever. Godspeed Ralanr.
: i can't think of an initiator that doesn't have a dash besides Kennen, who's still usually reliant on flash to do it. you're right though; they either need a way in through mobility or having ranged CC to start them off. in the case of sejuani i would have rather had the latter since I've never liked her Q for Maokai I would've just changed it to be a damage redirect to himself instead of being a flat reduction. encourages decision making and it would have worked amazingly well with his new passive, to boot
: Then fix his q hitbox too
Just don't stand near the edge.
Kotleth (EUNE)
: What is soo hard in his E? Im ok with R but E? It is easy and typical skillshot. Sion in general isn't hard champion, maybe except his ultimate.
Angling the minions.
LankPants (OCE)
: Poppy can't cancel Shyvana's dash either. She can't cancel unstopable dashes, of which Sion's ult is one.
She can't cancel Shyvana or WW dash because they were designed to be uninterruptible. She used to be able to stop the dash. Sion was never using a dash.
: Talk about a misrepresentation. You do know these videos are massively over exaggerated for comedic effect and as result don't reflect the reality of the champion right?
Oh I know, I just really do not feel that different when fighting the old Malz.
: I think Olaf would find his death in war before hitting old age.
Nope. His lore is literally that he won't find his death in combat, but old age. It's why he's so angry all the time. He sees himself as a failure because he keeps failing and failing.
: Everyone who's reading this...
{{champion:14}}: It keeps coming back and leaving. Bits and pieces of my life before...before what I am now. And now in the midst of this horrific carnage, my mind is now clear to what I have become. No more. _Sion drops his axe and kneels on the ground in the middle of the battle_ {{champion:50}}: Something is wrong. _With unbridled fury, Sion begins to bash and tear at the soul furnace in his chest_ {{champion:14}}: No more. No more. No more. NO MORE!!!!! {{champion:50}}: Vladimir! Stop him! {{champion:8}}: I can't. The connection isn't stable. _Cracks form in the furnace, with screams of its inhabitants following through as they seek freedom._ {{champion:14}}: Get out of me! Earn your peace, as I earn my final rest! _Sion turns to see Swain across the battlefield. A familiar image fills his mind. Rage fills him once again, different from the battle frenzy that drove him for so long. What he carried was the same rage that brought his hands around Jarvan's neck_ _Pure, utter, hatred._ {{champion:14}}: SWAIN!!!!!!!!! {{champion:50}}: Stop him. NOW! _Spears and magic pelt Sion's charging form. But they are but raindrops to a bolder rolling down a hill. His furnace burned bright, enveloping him in the souls and blood of the fallen as he crashed through noxian soldiers as though they were toys. Before Swain can utter another order, Sion's cold hands are wrapped around the general's throat._ {{champion:14}}: I am your pawn, no longer! _The furnace finally breaks, leading to an explosion that mirrored that of the rune wars. All that remains is Sion's iron peg leg, melted into the dirt as a testament to what happened._
: Basically like Smelter Demon?
Who is this Smelter Demon you speak of?
LankPants (OCE)
: He actually does, his ult is a dash and I highly doubt he would function at all as a champion without it.
His ult is not a dash. Poppy can't cancel his ult with her W.
: Wasn't the context "Tanks with fast/instant CC are necessary to counter mobile bullshit"? Because, while Grounding does hinder mobile champions they can just use their mobility to not be in that position in the first place. But then the Tank can just walk up to the immobile champ, ground them to stop their Flash, and kill them/get them killed. If you think it's cool to punish immobility harder, hey go nuts.
It punishes mobility much harder then immobility. And there are times when you can't flash anyway.
: Well, tanks _are_ support oriented by design, they just serve a different function. Take Maokai for example. I would contest that despite his ult being very generally powerful, that it provided unique power, because other tanks could not offer what his ult does. And I think that Riot should have kept the concept of it as an "intercepting damage for my team" rather than giving him more CC when he's already a fairly disruptive champion. It needed to change, but I don't think it warranted being replaced. I feel like there's a very large potential for tanks to dip into, with defensive utilities besides straight-up crowd control that Riot could tap into, that they're not. And while we're on that subject, I'm a little disappointed that initiators all have to have dashes, rather than something a little less cut-and-paste, but I doubt that's gonna change because dashes look nice for highlight reels
Sion has no dashes.
: Because punishing mobility always punishes immobility more.
Are you being sarcastic or do you actually thinking that's a bad thing?
: giving them other strengths beyond having an abundance of CC would be a good start
Would you argue Sion's strength is his zoning?
: My appreciation from taunts is that they enforce aggro, whether or not you take reduced damage you're a tank, you want enemies to attack you over your allies. Personally, I think taunts go a long way towards fulfilled the Warden fantasy, but I understand if you're not a fan. My ideas are just that, they're not always great.
My issue with tanks is how they feel to fight against as you lose control over your character.
: Your problem there is that how do you make all tanks unique in that case? Look at the general problem with Maokai: He's so general and "does everything" that he becomes the bar. So let's pretend you get your way and rework tanks that way. How do you differentiate them? Which one has the best damage and which one has teh strongest avoidance. And no, a sliding scale of "SUPER EASY TO DODGE but does GODLIKE DAMAGE" doesn't work. Because then you have someone who has a giant pixel beam that moves at two inches a second but if it hits you insta-die. That doesn't feel like counterplay at that point, it feels stupid. Besides, Sion should feel special. Otherwise he stops feeling like Sion and starts feeling like "Undead Maokai" vs. "Water Maokai" (Naut) vs. "Sexy maokai" (Sejuani) vs. "Fat Maokai" (Gragas) vs. "NInja Maokai" (Shen) vs. etc etc etc.
I'll admit that it does take the special out of Sion. Hence why I am not a designer and don't really intend to be.
: As I said, J4 is a tank. Some pointless link with meaningless subclasses won't change jack. Stay wrong, buddy.
J4 is a fighter buddy. But if you want to stay wrong, ok. Do you meet with the flat earth society that has members all around the globe?
: What matters is their function, not their technical classification. Keep on arguing semantics. J4 is a tank lul. Stay wrong, buddy.
> [{quoted}](name=LesVitesses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RKPl0PAM,comment-id=0001000000020000000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-29T00:40:49.540+0000) > > What matters is their function, not their technical classification. Keep on arguing semantics. > > **J4 is a tank lul. Stay wrong, buddy.** https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list >Divers Vi Xin Zhao Nocturne Pantheon **Jarvan** Wukong Warwick Renekton Elise Hecarim Lee Sin Irelia Aatrox Evelynn Diana No u. edit: J4 hasn't actually been played like a tank in ages. He's mainly been used as a heavy burst fighter.
: I was talking more about the "Every girl should have a more masculine frame and face like Illoai" crew. I don't recall you among them. You are one of my last hopes for a reasonable boards member anyway.
> [{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=24hYEPEg,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-04-29T00:33:16.819+0000) > > I was talking more about the "Every girl should have a more masculine frame and face like Illoai" crew. I don't recall you among them. **You are one of my last hopes for a reasonable boards member anyway.** https://media.makeameme.org/created/im-touched-611fvi.jpg
: As a girl, the new Sej is perfect.
Looking like a man? I just wanted muscle. Which I got.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RKPl0PAM,comment-id=0001000000020000,timestamp=2017-04-29T00:09:43.018+0000) > > Except you know...they don't beyond being hard to kill. They're tanks. Doesn't matter what you imagine in your head. Tank ekko, tank shaco, tank fizz - they're all tanks. That is how they function within a game. You can argue semantics all you want, it won't change the fact that they're tanks. Tank is a function and is separated from from the tank class (which just happens to be called tanks). The fact is that most champs can be built in different ways. But I suppose in your head a full lethality J4 is a tank as well even though he just changed himself into an assassin.
> [{quoted}](name=LesVitesses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RKPl0PAM,comment-id=00010000000200000001,timestamp=2017-04-29T00:17:15.989+0000) > > They're tanks. Doesn't matter what you imagine in your head. Tank ekko, tank shaco, tank fizz - they're all tanks. That is how they function within a game. You can argue semantics all you want, it won't change the fact that they're tanks. Tank is a function and is separated from from the tank class (which just happens to be called tanks). The fact is that most champs can be built in different ways. > No, no, and no. I've explained this enough today that I don't feel the need to explain it again. > But I suppose in your head a full lethality J4 is a tank as well even though he just made himself an assassin. No, he's a diver.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RKPl0PAM,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-28T14:40:17.294+0000) > > So many of those aren't even tanks. > > Garen: Juggernaut > Illaoi: Juggernaut > Mundo: Juggernaut > Nasus: Juggernaut > Darius: Juggernaut > > I don't expect Instalok to be exactly accurate though. They are entertainers after all. Doesn't really matter what they technically are when they function as tanks regardless. {{champion:122}} shouldn't be able to build BC and delete the entire champion rooster. Arguably he doesn't even need BC to do what he does. You build tank - you're a tank. Arguing otherwise is just of the same nature as today's bureaucracy riddles, i.e bullshit justfication.
> [{quoted}](name=LesVitesses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RKPl0PAM,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2017-04-29T00:08:12.716+0000) > > **Doesn't really matter what they technically are when they function as tanks regardless**. {{champion:122}} shouldn't be able to build BC and delete the entire champion rooster. Arguably he doesn't even need BC to do what he does. Except you know...they don't beyond being hard to kill.
: I mean galio is sort of that as well
And I also like playing Galio.
: Sion needs no buffs. So sick of the boards circle jerk towards this champion. If you've ever laned against a GOOD sion you definitely wouldn't be asking for buffs.
Sion main here, doesn't need buffs. Only change he needs is for people to stop walking through him when he's charging his Q.
ybuR (NA)
: counterplay????? you should stop circlejerking so much dude
How am I circlejerking? I just see people complain that they are squishy as if it doesn't mean they die easily. I just find that confusing is all.
: Then wouldn't that imply that they'd introduced some new stat in the MYMU, where consistent damage AP champions were in tended to be targeted?
By that logic, shouldn't they have made Omen take 20% crit reduction during the marksmen update? They didn't and are doing it now.
ybuR (NA)
: Nice try im pretty sure any logical people complains about the ways they die. Remember pre rework lb and tank ekko yeah
Of course people complain about how they die. That's normal. So?
: The main problem I see... is that if there are too many abilities which give greater power at cost of reliability like Sion Q.... is that if one CC lands those abilities suddenly aren't so unreliable anymore making that target either take quite a lot of damage or end up CC'ed for quite some time (after all abilities like Sion Q works because it doesn't need to hit just be scary enough that the enemy is will to wast time to avoid it)
True. It all depends on landing rhe first one. Which is why most of Sion's kit is unreliable.
: {{champion:113}} turning into a triforce bruiser on PBE lol
: > [{quoted}](name=EndlessSorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HHgzv4F3,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-28T19:12:07.479+0000) > > I've never really seen people make such distinctions in-game. I've only really seen them on the boards for purposes of discussions (where establishing a common base is important). Common base sure, but you notice..... That first bit there...... It is done on the boards. Even when talking about "the tank was doing a lot of damage" on the boards people say "thats a juggernaut not a tank"........ People use the terminology they would use in game. In that game they are the tank. In that game that tank was doing a lot of damage. If people question why they do so much damage, THEN it is fine to point that out. Otherwise it is not needed for the purposes of the commentary "that tank did a lot of damage."
Often people are questioning why they did so much damage. What is confusing here?
Ramen226 (NA)
: Wasn't talking strictly about tryndamere. Still not talking about only champions riot classifies as tanks. Sure why not I'm talking about juggernauts. I just haven't spelled out juggernaut specifically. Really any champion whos main source of damage is through base damage so they can build nearly full tank. Darius: builds {{item:3071}} and then goes full tank. Illaoi: builds {{item:3071}} and more often than not {{item:3812}} and then full tank. Gnar: builds {{item:3022}} or {{item:3071}} and then full tank Renekton: ok i give up on this fuck he's just a lane bully like pantheon. Swain: This guy is weird. Yes, he is a mage but his itemization is usually 1-2 ap that is most commonly {{item:3027}} and some variant of {{item:3145}} . Still builds mostly tank and unless you're ahead you're gonna have a bad day. Vladimir: (i actually don't have a problem with him if i go tryndamere) my problems is that if your all-in doesn't kill him or if you're too ow to stay in lane, he's back to full hp in a wave. And then if their jungler keeps trying to screw with you early then getting a lead back from vlad is near impossible post lvl 3. Yorick: Builds a variant of {{item:3057}} and sometimes {{item:3071}} and then full tank. And all too often will they break their normal build path, rush {{item:3143}} or {{item:3068}} and then killing them is out of the question.
So they aren't actually going full tank, they are going bruiser.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1nEThRAm,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-28T18:18:43.566+0000) > > Then you'll just farm with your E. > > It's not like you always need to win lane. Built right, Sion doesn't need to get close enough for him to farm. But Sion isn't that great after laning phase. Your CC is just too unreliable, with how easily Q can be stopped with hard CC, compared to Kennen's 5 man stun. Also, you're slow.
The subject was more about laning, but after laning Sion isn't bad and he has a team to back him up.
: > [{quoted}](name=EndlessSorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HHgzv4F3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-04-28T18:02:30.835+0000) > > It can be difficult to have a conversation if two people are using different terminology. > > If someone says "tanks" (i.e. Garen, Darius) are dealing too much damage and someone else argues that tanks (i.e. Alistar, Braum) aren't, the discussion isn't particularly useful. > > This is why we have specific terminology to begin with. While i do agree with the need to identify it if the distinction is needed to be pointed out for a conversation..... Are you going to be pointing that out in game? For example, if you have a Juggernaut top, are you going to be saying.... And i quote.... "gg, no tank"? No. Because the Juggernaut will be tanky and thus will be refered to in game as a tank. While the distinction of the sub class is good in figuring out why they do more damage.... Going with your example..... There is no need to point out that the class is "not a tank" when apart from very certain cases, they still have to do the same things as tanks....... Such as multiple combo rotations to kill enemies (normally), soak up a lot more damage than most of the team (especially true when you are the tankiest person on the team), and often times locking down the enemy with some kind of CC (in Mordekaiser's case it would be with {{item:3116}} because he has no engage tool such as Darius's hook and Garens speed boost). So why is it that the distinction NEEDS to be made almost every time someone "applies the wrong terminology to the champion" same as there is almost always that person that if someone uses the wrong "they're, their, there" that must be pointed out? Sure you make everyone else laugh because that is effectively trying to make a fool out of someone "cant you use proper grammar? Is english not your first language?" but at the same time you are trying to make a fool out of someone. Yes if they are being annoying and trying to play League like they are playing Age of Empires telling everyone what to do, what to build, and say everyone is stupid....... By all means, point out every grammatical mistake and misused terminology they make all the way back till they were in 1st grade...... If they are trying to figure out why a "tank does so much damage" you can say that "they actually are the subclass of a fighter, and that class is known for its superb fighting potential"....... But the last case (which i believe you saw, i remember your name and commentary on that thread), and multiple that ive had before that..... It has been times that the distinction really did not need to be made.
Personally? In game I will not go out of my way to try to explain what a tank is. I should focus on other things and adapt to the lack of CC my top laner is bringing. But in a forum discussion? I'll try to understand what exactly people are referring to and explain it to the best of my ability. Sometimes that involves telling the difference between a tank or a juggernaut. If someone complains "Mundo does too much damage for a tank!" I'll just say, "He's a juggernaut. He's supposed to hurt." If someone said, "Even as a juggernaut, I think Mundo does too much damage" or similar, I'd probably go into that discussion with the mindset of discussing Mundo's damage output. Quick question: is this about the Instalok video?
Dzoni87 (EUNE)
: What is Riot's state on "Sexy" champion redesigns?
The answer they had in the article was basically, "If it makes sense for the character to be dressed in an attractive manner (Like how MF uses her flirting to get her way or how Leblanc probably means to look distracting) then they will be designed as such." Basically they'll keep avoiding the "Chainmail bikini" design like the plague but not try to overly specialize champions that it doesn't make sense to do so in lore. So Eve? Probably going to be designed as someone who dresses in a sultry manner. But someone like Ashe? Probably not as much.
Crede777 (NA)
: The idea that Riot has of a tank is borrowed from MMORPG's like WoW. That is, the Tank soaks damage, has ways of drawing aggro (taunts), crowd control, and buffs allies. Along with that, they do negligible damage.
I think Riot is trying to divert from that mindset while most of the playerbase is still in it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1nEThRAm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-28T18:15:09.552+0000) > > Play Sion, max E, poke him with his minions. what poke? 15% lifesteal off botrk. he will butcher anything that can't 100-0 him.
Then you'll just farm with your E. It's not like you always need to win lane. Built right, Sion doesn't need to get close enough for him to farm.
: LOL..you two just proved his point. He was using the "tank/juggernaut" thing as an example, and you guys started nit picking the example.
Actually Sorcerer explained it pretty much perfectly.
: there is no possible way to lane against ad/on hit kennen as a tank top laner.
: I'm still adamant that we need more taunts.
I personally don't think taunts are the answer. They don't really feel interactive to me.
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Ralanr

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