: but Jax has mixed damage within his kit. His R-Passive and his W.
Yeah but he’s not going to do much mixed damage if he doesn’t build something for it.
: Still flat pen, but then you're going a more magic build anyways and losing damage for going a defense item that falls off later anyways.
Wits end is more shred than pen. Combined with the shred on her passive, that should be a lot of MR lost.
: Why would I build a late game 1v1 build in a world where late game 1v1s don't exist? I'd rather not die in a snap in a teamfight.
Oh idk, maybe because the topic was about on hit mixed damage?
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l86rKsjh,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-06-22T22:19:55.247+0000) > > Maybe cause of Irelia’s new passive. > > Also that fervor doesn’t really follow how most keystones work. You either get immediate power (comet, aery, klepto) for completing a requirement, power after a ramp up (grasp, conquerer, electrocute, dark harvest, press the attack, lethal tempo, etc) or some utility focused effect (guardian, aery, spellbook). > > Fervor grants power as it goes up and keeps getting stronger up to a certain point. Plus the only reason it was good for bruisers was the flat AD it provided to help with not only autos, but also early scaling abilities. Maybe that should be changed then because the way current keystones work is terrible. Fervor also does fit with the "ramp up" you described. It literally got stronger then longer you were in combat. I also feel like Lethal Tempo would benefit more from the fervor style; were instead of just activating upon your first AA, it worked like Fervor or Guinsoos and granted a percentage of AS the longer you fought. In its current iteration, its just flat out terrible.
Except ramp up keystones don’t get their benefit till the end. Fervor gets a benefit constantly.
: tank is a cowards class. Play bruisers.
Yeah. It sure is cowardly diving into the enemy team to keep them still while my team follows through with damage. Like, super cowardly.
: Why does every tank player think that it's healthy a 13 kill champion can't even scratch them?
Idk, why do damage players think that going 13 and 0 makes them unkillable? Frankly, it’s just how tanks tend to measure up. If we cannot hold off the biggest threat, then we feel like we cannot do our job.
: the difference was some champs had the ability to insta-stack fervor, like jax aa-W-titanic = full stacks, or renek aa-W. conqueror doesn't have that issue as everyone needed the 4s.
Imo that makes it sound like conquerer is more balanced than fervor. Though it benefits fighters less.
: Except it's not conqueror letting bruisers go bot; bruisers aren't half as good there as mages are. The thing letting bruisers go bot are the fact that ADCs are over nerfed. Conqueror should straight up be removed and turned into fervor instead. Why they didn't just put fervor in as the keystone for bruisers over either pta or conqueror I will never know.
Maybe cause of Irelia’s new passive. Also that fervor doesn’t really follow how most keystones work. You either get immediate power (comet, aery, klepto) for completing a requirement, power after a ramp up (grasp, conquerer, electrocute, dark harvest, press the attack, lethal tempo, etc) or some utility focused effect (guardian, aery, spellbook). Fervor grants power as it goes up and keeps getting stronger up to a certain point. Plus the only reason it was good for bruisers was the flat AD it provided to help with not only autos, but also early scaling abilities.
: Void Staff, while buyable on Kayle, still is a subpar purchase because you deal mixed damage. LDR is even worse. Building both? That's ignorant thinking. You shouldn't talk about how a champion can be built if you don't even know the standard builds for that champion.
: a standard Jax Trinity, Titanic, Sterak's, and a tank item.
So you’re not really building on hit then.
: Try playing Jax into a tank who built Adaptive Helm and Thornmail. Trust me, you won't have fun. > As for the ignite problem: 1) flat health stacking has been nerfed. 2) ignite is only a problem in lane, where you don’t have many items to counter flat damage and it’s used as an execute. On finished items was HP reduced, and tanks aren't being crippled by ignite... I agree Ignite is overpowered, but it has nothing to do with what the OP is talking about.
We talking full build Jax and full build tank or just two items?
: [Discussion] What are everyone's thoughts on Pyke now that he's been out for some time?
I like him, but lord I hate using his Q. I’m probably just bad, but I’m more used to the snap hooks of Thresh, Blitz, and Naut. Having to charge it makes it so obvious.
Lapis (OCE)
: Do people actually like csing?
Generally no, which is one of the reasons I play HoTS sometimes.
: If tanks don't like having their damage gimped, why do they still buy {{item:3193}} ? And no, the damage reduction would not be tied to the active; it would have to be a passive effect.
Because Stoneplate’s damage reduction applies to the active, which is a short time frame. Applying it to a passive effect would basically be gimping their damage 24/7.
: Conqueror is weak. That's just a fact based on stats. Ignite, the FLAT TRUE DAMAGE isn't stopping tanks who STACK HEALTH. Tanks items outscale mixed damage. Have you ever played mixed damage Kayle into someone building Omen, Adaptive, and Stoneplate? You deal near 0 damage. That's the weakness of mixed damage is that they have no options for pen. #What tank is dying "instantly" when Crit marksmen are near unplayable?
Tanks outscaled mixed damage: I disagree here. I think the only thing helping is adaptive. Generally even resistances don’t stand up to sustained damage, which mixed damage champions often do. As for the ignite problem: 1) flat health stacking has been nerfed. 2) ignite is only a problem in lane, where you don’t have many items to counter flat damage and it’s used as an execute. I don’t agree that tanks are being deleted instantly, but their presence hasn’t been very positive.
: Tanks like Poppy are still extremely tanky champs.
I think it’s mainly Poppy and Ornn.
: Should there be a tank-only item with an active that gives you very brief CC immunity?
It would primarily be used by juggernauts and maybe divers over tanks. Especially if the damage reduction is during the active since they can use it for an escape. If the damage reduction is always on, then no one outside of maybe Supports would buy it. Tanks may not build damage, but they don’t like having their damage gimped either.
needHymn (NA)
: Tenacity should give a % chance to entirely dodge displacements.
Not really. This sounds like dodge except it only works on abilities that displace you. Making it much more unfair because of resources you made pointless (like mana). The main counterplay to displacements is to dodge them. Which is why we shouldn’t have point and click displacements.
: Yet, the thing is, some champs are capable of outskilling at low hp, just see hashinshin going 1v3 on Olaf and somehow winning. So it was theoretically a sound decision to go for it yet didn't turn out as it was supposed to. People make mistakes, or is that even a mistake? I mean it was calculated after all.
: Why does Aatrox only have 2 charges for Umbral Dash?
Probably because it would make his Q too reliable. That's my guess.
: Depends though, if the laner backed after losing a trade, a trade is still a trade and he might be at half hp for an assassin jungler to clean up.
Maultron (NA)
: Are Yordles Weak?
Unlikely. First off we have Poppy and Gnar, two beings that have shown high levels of physical strength (of course with Gnar it's because he hulks out, and it could be argued that it's mainly the hammer for Poppy, but she remarks that it is very heavy so idk). But I don't think you mean physical strength. Yordles I believe have strength in their ability to hide and surprise their opponents, which leads me to believe that yordles as a whole could be considered weaker than humans. Now there are yordles that are stronger than the average human and even reach champion level power, but champions are not accurate representations of averages amongst a population (because magic is rare on this planet yet most of the cast has magical powers). So to protect themselves, they hide away. Even {{champion:74}}, who is potentially the smartest of the yordles, hid away when Ziggs was discovered. So yes, I imagine that yordles are weak, hence why they hide. But it isn't impossible for them to be powerful.
: 14 champs that have gone over 1000 days w/o a new skin (June 2018)
I feel Irelia should be noted as having a full VGU so she probably isn't in the most desperate need for a skin.
Zerenza (NA)
: When your laner tells you not to fight someone, please listen.
"I can take em." No, no you can't and if you can then the risk is outweighing the reward. I know I've been guilty of this as well, but honestly, you really shouldn't engage someone if they have more resources than you (health, mana, etc). There are exceptions obviously, but that's why it's a case by case thing.
GigglesO (NA)
: How is high damage, High mobility....
I blame anime and their animation budgets. “Why block when you can dodge.” Feels like the code of a lot of “high skill” characters in fiction, which ends up translating over into games that reward reflexes more than things like planning (those this depends on the game as well).
GigglesO (NA)
: That is a pretty good fantasy can you do it in the 2 seconds you are allowed to survive?
I’m Sion, I can an extra second or two if I time my shield right. It also doesn’t matter if I land my ult.
GigglesO (NA)
: Since we talk about power fantasy
As a tank main, my fantasy is more about breaking down the fragile structure of the enemy team as I bring about chaos in their ranks, forcing them to be confused, distracted, and divided to my team can pick them off.
: I'd do Aatrox a little differently. Here's how:
I would like to talk about his W and R1. When reading his W, I'm a bit confused. Usually empowered auto abilities end after the empowered auto hits. But this as I read it has an empowered auto, a regular auto, and another empowered auto. But as I read Carnage stance, instead of one empowered auto, it's several for the duration of 4 seconds. Since stance switching has no cooldown, you could go Relentless, Carnage, and Relentless, plus depending on whether this functions as an auto reset (I don't think it does) or his level of attack speed, I'm just imagining a huge level of burst here. The mechanics of his W also seem a bit worrisome. It seems very similar to Poppy's old ult except it only works on auto attacks and it dashes you towards your original target. But with the 0.5 second delay from his Q, what's to stop Aatrox from using W on a support, getting in close, then using Q to just dive onto the ADC and taking no damage from ADC autos in that time? Sure the knock up duration might make it not very beneficial since it lasts 4 seconds, but it still seems like too strong of a benefit. His R1 is basically the worst part of old Ardent Censor. Yes, it's held back by having a cooldown, but this makes teamfights an incredible sustain fest for his ADC's and melee carries as odds are he'll be close enough for them to keep refreshing the healing. It makes teamfights with him look very one-sided unless people are packing GW. IMO, it gives too much to his team without needing him to be ahead or even. While thematically Aatrox's ability to bring out fervor in others is cool, gameplay wise it is a very tricky thing to balance because it's basically providing a bunch of extra combat stats to other champions. I don't see that much strategic depth to his R1, you either use it in a teamfight or you don't. This forces him to rely on his R2, which requires him to die. Abilities that require death to activate are historically really weak to justify power in other parts so it doesn't feel like you need to gain the most out of the champion. The exception of this being {{champion:30}} IMO because dying is the best time to use his ult.
: Still doesn't change the fact that they transformed Aatrox into another edgy, screaming asshole on his reworked voiceover.
He’s more hammy than edgy.
Xcion (NA)
: You have grasp and overgrowth which both scales infinitely. ._.
Overgrowth scales poorly and I don’t think grasp is taken for its health increase. As a Sion main, let me tell you that offense always outscaled defense, even if the defense is “limitless” as hard as that is to believe.
Xcion (NA)
: They nerfed streaks to nerf trinity users, (was aimed to nerf irelia) but it turns out that shit didn't do much but nerf jax. What items for tanks got nerfed? Whenever I see tanks they just take grasp and slap bruises around early. {{champion:31}} {{champion:516}} high base damage, shit ton of cc that ignores merc treads, and % health damage. Both of them can land one ability that can be considered game changing and just win off that.
They nerfed the health from all tank items back in the tank update I’m exchange for more resistances. But that exchange feels weaker with the increase in true damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGLHQOB7,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-17T20:46:39.327+0000) > > Builds don't determine role. Kits do. Mundo is still a huge frontliner who only plays to soak damage away from his carries. Singed is a AoE slowing displacer.
: > [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGLHQOB7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-17T20:19:19.437+0000) > > Singed is not a tank and neither is Mundo. Can't remember the last time I saw a Poppy or a Malphite in a non-aram game Mundo: {{item:3194}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3075}} {{item:3068}} Singed: {{item:2065}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3143}}
: Get out of here with your logic!
: Lol wow go play leo top lane and then come tell me leo is weak. Cc and good damage
That doesn’t answer my question, chummer.
: Wtf are you talking about leo can beat most top laners due to cc alone and good burst off her w and q. Taric due to armor scaling damage but his issue is mana cost . braum would honestly be better then taric. Poke and cc more reliable
And Leo isn't a meta top laner because?
Kaioko (NA)
: I agree some tanks need buffs but I still wish it wasn't to their damage. Zac just isn't the flavor of the month right now Mundo is. Something about being ridiculously tanky on top of adding 110-220 AD on already one of the highest AD bases in the game...
Mundo is a juggernaut though.
: Umm leo and taric will crush people just saying
In bot...which is not where tanks should be balanced around.
Ghazter (NA)
: Poppy Changes
Are you not running manaflow band?
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wXB5Ejeh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-06-13T13:28:43.716+0000) > > I don’t think so. I believe meddler said that spear and Atmas are more likely to come back in the preseason. do they seriously think its will take 12 more patches for them to reduce game snowballing? i understand that the situation is chaotic right now, but they dont have to do a lot from where we are. just increase game times from ~20 - 25 min to ~35 minutes and we have solved the biggest issue. maybe they should look at turret first blood and other bullshit mechanics that snowballed games to the extreme since season 7.
I think it’s more that spear itself is dangerous, but I cannot speak for them there. Though I think the only reason we still have first tower blood is to prevent lane swapping. Now I don’t like this mechanic (I’m afraid to leave lane and give up my tower first) but I can’t see how else they’d stop lane swapping.
: rip. they took my atmas before it was even live. there is hope we get it with the aatrox update and the darius/garen skins next patch. i hope they dont take too long.
I don’t think so. I believe meddler said that spear and Atmas are more likely to come back in the preseason.
JJI744 (NA)
: Off topic, you can right-click a youtube video and click copy URL at current time, and it will give you a link that sends anyone that clicks it to the video starting at that specific point.
I am incredibly inept when it comes to these things. Thank you.
: Diamond people can be stupid, but they aren't absolute morons. I'm saying they can make stupid decisions, but at least they know basic things.
Champion kits of champions you've never played do not fall under basic knowledge. Basic knowledge is more like macroplay.
: I think AirkingNeo here is trying to say that Aatrox's identity is being lost in this VGU. IMHO, he didn't have much of an identity (But I hardly ever played him, so that's probably a misconception on my part) but he WAS the first Darkin character of the game. So I think AirkingNeo was hoping he would retain some of that "first of the Darkins" thing in this VGU. With this, Riot is trying to make him more distinct, since we now have 2 (3 if you count {{champion:110}} but I let others draw their own conclusions on that) Darkin champs with the arrival of {{champion:141}} and Rhaast. Now, (correct me if I'm wrong) he seems more of a "Juggernaut" type of Darkin than a "Diver". I'm cool with that, and I'm interested to see how this turns out in-game. Juggernauts are my favorite class, and while I'd like to see a brand-new one, not a rebrand of an existing character into it's group ala {{champion:6}} , I'll take what I can get.
I know Neo is arguing that the identity was lost. The identity itself wasn’t intended to stay within the rework. Riot was upfront in saying his gameplay would change if I remember.
: both Sion and Poppy were season 1 champions with non functional kits. Aatrox is a season 3 champion with a mini rework in season 6, wiith a functional kit.
It for the most part wasn't. He was shit tier for a long time because if his numbers were decent he was too good.
: Galio stays an AP tank. Yorick stays a minionmancer. Taric stays an armor support.
Both {{champion:14}} and {{champion:78}} were heavily changed as well. It's not like this is impossible now.
: Reminder that his ultimate also increases his damage dealt and the ultimate ENDS when he revives, so it's similar to a Swain style ultimate to where the enemy just has to know it's coming and they will likely initiate with it (use it at the start of a fight). > At least Sion uses his ult for engages like 48% of the time. That's not majority of the time. It's kind of sad that Sion's ultimate isn't used closer to double that amount as an engage to be honest.
That was a number I pulled out of my ass for comedic effect.
: Where does it say he can reposition while resurrecting
I was watching in his gameplay and after he died under tower he moved around while ressing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJSkQpaQOjo He dies at 1:28.
: It is difficult to judge a champion kit without any number. Maybe his health regen is weak. Maybe his base AD or AD growth is weak. Does he have strong base armor? Good MS? Good health growth? How much does he gain in term of Free AD? How does he scale? Total AD? Bonus AD? How strong is the regen? And what about his CD? It is easy to talk about his ult being a poor design (and I don't disagree on him moving while reviving is weird, again it is easy to fix/remove) but I rather talk about him when PBE is up so we can REALLY see how far up he is.
That is fair, I just wanted to get some thoughts out early.
Dllesh (NA)
: commenting on a design change without actually mentioning the design change is frustrating to me, there are so many changes constantly going on, people talk about a change like everyone knows what they are talking about, or are in their headspace... please mention how it was before the change, whats changing, and then go on to explain your feels about the situation just my 2 cents since i think any colored name should be held to the standards of what makes a good discussion since you stand out by your vry difference
That is fair and I apologize. I was on my phone at first so I didn't feel I could really explain much. Though from what I know of Aatrox's current kit, his revive is on his passive and his ultimate is more of a super sayain mode where he gets AD, range, AS, more healing, etc. His new ult seems to increase damage of his abilities, fear minions, and give him AS (I may be wrong on the last part). But it also has his revive. Now I don't have a problem with his revive being on his ult, in fact I think it's a nice powerspike, but I do have a problem in that his revive lacks the weakness of others because he can move while reviving. I feel that overcoming this weakness is poor design, and I do not see the sacrifice for this power.
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