: > [{quoted}](name=Rathimas,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T22:16:22.505+0000) > > Please just read what I wrote after your initial hypothetical comment. I said wouldn’t the situation still be hypothetical? Your response was to avoid the question. A common technique of people who realize they are wrong or can’t refute the claim. > > I attacked your response based on your misuse of the word which is why it keeps coming up. No one is salty. I just don’t understand how you can say you smashed someone in a debate, but the fundamental base of the current case is your misunderstanding of the word hypothetical. Which since you now say you don’t care about the meaning of the word. Means you concede the point to me, which means you agree that the hypothetical situation where IMT can beat SKT still stands. Which means you lost. Sorry try harder next time. Helpful tips are to respond to the actual comment instead of diverting or attacking the opponent. Lol the whole argument was that NA is not the second best region and in fact a garbage region. Thats what C9 Magnus was trying to argue against. Look at his top comment. It wasn't even talking about the word hypothetical. Nice try but you chimed in and didnt even understand what the overall argument was about. Whatever. The fact of the matter is SKT is better than IMT and any NA team by a big margin and anyone with a brain knows thats true. Hypothetical or not. You are just holding on to the word hypothetical. Once again anyone can argue hypothetically about anything without any logic or reason. I can say hypothetically I'm the best league player in the world and no one can prove I'm wrong unless I play against every league player. If you're using hypothetical to justify your logic instead of evidence and facts how does any logical debate even start? And just so you know hypothetical comes from hypothesis which is mainly used for people to come up with a logical explanation based on evidence and established facts. You know like scientists and reasonable people. Not for brainless kids to randomly spew out nonsensical notions just for the sake of it like IMT > SKT. You can still say it but then you're just being a petty unreasonable brat. Sorry but I competently outclassed you in every argument. Your claims are empty and baseless but keep gloating about the fact that you can spew out whatever you want with no evidence or facts to support it and just hide behind the word hypothetical since that word to unintelligent people means that you can say anything you want since you can't prove the future. Why don't you say you will visit pluto while you're at it. I can't say you're wrong since "hypothetically" I never saw you do it. I'm right you're wrong. Tip for you is actually have a brain before arguing with your superiors.
hypothetical of, based on, or serving as a hypothesis. supposed but not necessarily real or true hypotheses a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation. synonyms: theory, theorem, thesis, conjecture, supposition, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, assumption; More notion, concept, idea, possibility. Proof again you don’t know what your talking about. You see how a key point is limited evidence. The point of a hypothesis is to generate dialogue. Your response to magnus was > [{quoted}](name=Mazacardo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e,timestamp=2017-10-12T18:20:26.256+0000) > > so uh. NA will win over the most dominant region right? IMT could challenge SKT right? I guess it isn't "hypothetical" now is it. Fact of the matter is you were way overrating NA and they ARE light years away from Korea its not close and probably wont be close You see how you stated that “IMT could challenge SKT right? It isn’t hypothetical now is it” My response was: > [{quoted}](name=Rathimas,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e0000,timestamp=2017-10-13T12:18:16.835+0000) > > Uh wouldn’t it still be hypothetical? Based on the definition. The only time it wouldn’t is if they did play each other You then say I’m sad because I deny the fact that NA is garbage. Where prey tell did I say NA was better than LCK? Or the NA was second best region? The argument is about your misunderstanding of the words you are using. You are resulting to name calling which is a classic sign of someone who can’t debate properly. Even your Pluto situation isn’t correct. Becasue me going to Pluto is verifiable. If I said it’s possible to go to Pluto using warp drive engine that would be hypothetical becasue we don’t have warp drive engines and until we do it can’t be disproven. Just like Einstein’s E=MC^2 can’t be proven correct since we can’t go speed of light. But again Mazacardo-senpai you are wrong. Can’t have your “juniors” proving you wrong so I understand your steadfast stance. TL;DR: you are proven wrong based on your own words and claims. You are not as skilled a debator due to your attacking opponents and not countering their arguments And since you have lost your now sent to the shadow realm. Poor poor Joey you will surely be missed.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rathimas,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T07:12:36.721+0000) > > No you are wrong again. You started your bash on magnus comment by saying the hypothetical IMT beating SKT can’t happen because IMT got smashed. I only stated that wouldn’t IMT hypothetically beating SKT still is possible because it was neither confirmed or denied. I didn’t get smashed I wasn’t on stage going 0-4 I’m not an IMT fan either. > > Also everyone would think you were dumb but your hypothetical would still stand even if no one believes you. That’s how theory’s work. > > My post was just pointing out how you are not understanding the word you were using. That’s why the back and forth between us focuses on that one word. So while again I said magnus is too biased and was wrong. You messed up when you tried to flame him using the word “hypothetical” Thats not my point of the argument LOL. I bashed on him because he said NA is going to be the next most dominant region which he is complely wrong on so many levels and is shown to be true. So yes I did smash him. Once again you're getting caught up on the word without understanding what I mean. Of course hypothetically IMT didnt lose to SKT but any logical person would assume that IMT is not better than SKT. Thats my point. I don't give a damn on what the EXACT definition of the word means. If I say I can beat Lebron James in a one v one then I'm stupid as shit and thats all that matters. Its called common sense and clearly C9 Magnus lacks that. Its like a little kid saying Santa Clause is real but you know it isnt but you can't really prove it because "hypothetically" he could be. So I'm right and you're just salty trying to argue about something meaningless when my overall point of the argument still stands to be correct
Please just read what I wrote after your initial hypothetical comment. I said wouldn’t the situation still be hypothetical? Your response was to avoid the question. A common technique of people who realize they are wrong or can’t refute the claim. I attacked your response based on your misuse of the word which is why it keeps coming up. No one is salty. I just don’t understand how you can say you smashed someone in a debate, but the fundamental base of the current case is your misunderstanding of the word hypothetical. Which since you now say you don’t care about the meaning of the word. Means you concede the point to me, which means you agree that the hypothetical situation where IMT can beat SKT still stands. Which means you lost. Sorry try harder next time. Helpful tips are to respond to the actual comment instead of diverting or attacking the opponent.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rathimas,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T00:39:35.331+0000) > > I was pointing out how you were making fun of magnus about his claim of IMT hypothetically beating SKT. ( if you seen any of my comments I say he’s too biased and he’s wrong.) but his claim that IMT can be SKT is still hypothetical because of the definition of the word. So your so call burn against him failed. Before you comment back re read your comments to him and look up the word “hypothetical” save us both the time. It doesn't matter once again you guys are all caught up in the technicality of the word. You all know what I mean unless you're just that stupid. No real logical person would even hypothetically assume IMT can beat SKT. If I say hypothetically I can beat Lebron James one on one basketball to somebody I'm not wrong since it didnt happen but everyone would think I'm brain dead stupid. Same thing applies here. It's already proven that for all intents and purposes I'm right but keep getting caught up on the word just to hide the fact that you guys got totally smashed in this debate
> [{quoted}](name=Mazacardo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T02:26:09.027+0000) > > It doesn't matter once again you guys are all caught up in the technicality of the word. You all know what I mean unless you're just that stupid. No real logical person would even hypothetically assume IMT can beat SKT. If I say hypothetically I can beat Lebron James one on one basketball to somebody I'm not wrong since it didnt happen but everyone would think I'm brain dead stupid. Same thing applies here. It's already proven that for all intents and purposes I'm right but keep getting caught up on the word just to hide the fact that you guys got totally smashed in this debate No you are wrong again. You started your bash on magnus comment by saying the hypothetical IMT beating SKT can’t happen because IMT got smashed. I only stated that wouldn’t IMT hypothetically beating SKT still is possible because it was neither confirmed or denied. I didn’t get smashed I wasn’t on stage going 0-4 I’m not an IMT fan either. Also everyone would think you were dumb but your hypothetical would still stand even if no one believes you. That’s how theory’s work. My post was just pointing out how you are not understanding the word you were using. That’s why the back and forth between us focuses on that one word. So while again I said magnus is too biased and was wrong. You messed up when you tried to flame him using the word “hypothetical”
: > [{quoted}](name=Rathimas,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e0000,timestamp=2017-10-13T12:18:16.835+0000) > > Uh wouldn’t it still be hypothetical? Based on the definition. The only time it wouldn’t is if they did play each other How sad are you to still deny the fact that NA is pretty garbage
> [{quoted}](name=Mazacardo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e00000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T21:40:08.370+0000) > > How sad are you to still deny the fact that NA is pretty garbage I was pointing out how you were making fun of magnus about his claim of IMT hypothetically beating SKT. ( if you seen any of my comments I say he’s too biased and he’s wrong.) but his claim that IMT can be SKT is still hypothetical because of the definition of the word. So your so call burn against him failed. Before you comment back re read your comments to him and look up the word “hypothetical” save us both the time.
: but Svens pathing is really not that good and teams like MISFIT won off that pathing of his which is really bad at least Mike Yeung pathing is better in my opinion
> [{quoted}](name=EMPEROR SIVSHAN,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T05:21:48.208+0000) > > but Svens pathing is really not that good and teams like MISFIT won off that pathing of his which is really bad at least Mike Yeung pathing is better in my opinion Sven always paths the same. The problem was that TSM almost always had losing lanes. Which really exposes how Sven plays. No one can roam towards him and help during his aggressive invades which when the team is doing good Sven looks amazing. Just remember his Lee sin plays this year. TSM lost again because DL played too aggressive/disrespectfully, and sven getting caught in jungle. New jungle and new ADC needed for TSM. Apparently DIG application got denied so maybe they pick up someone.
: Nope, TSM did not get cocky. They are just not as good as WE or MSF
> [{quoted}](name=Best OBC NA,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=000000080001,timestamp=2017-10-14T23:21:32.710+0000) > > Nope, TSM did not get cocky. They are just not as good as WE or MSF TSM is good their play style just sucked. Bjerg on Ryze were boring to watch and they always played for late game and always had losing lanes, besides hauntzer and even when he did he played the matchup pretty good. Early game snowball comps/teams will more often than not beat a late game team. That’s what magnus meant by play style mismatch. Honestly the competition in NA sucks, I swear this whole split TSM was just fooling around and still won. So no wonder they didn’t make any changes in week 2.
: lmao "stylistically mismatched" thats so stupid. They had the easiest group and they lost, they simply played bad. And I literally said " I think C9 has a hard group though "
> [{quoted}](name=The K2 72,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000100010001,timestamp=2017-10-15T23:59:45.816+0000) > > lmao "stylistically mismatched" thats so stupid. They had the easiest group and they lost, they simply played bad. And I literally said " I think C9 has a hard group though " Group D besides flash wolves was the only group that was really competitive. Every other group in first week had clear favorites and severely underperforming teams. IMT and C9 only had to win one game in week two while TSM had to win two. The team NA fans should really be mad at is IMT they were playing like someone paid them off to lose.
: Svenskeren needs to be swapped out , even Mike Yeung is better in my opinion at this point.
> [{quoted}](name=EMPEROR SIVSHAN,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=00000000000000000002,timestamp=2017-10-14T13:35:27.698+0000) > > Svenskeren needs to be swapped out , even Mike Yeung is better in my opinion at this point. You lost me at mike yeung. Atleast Sven can play tanks
: 10 thoughts: Believe in NA
We at 1-7 progress boys
: 10 thoughts: Believe in NA
Funny how IMT needed 1 win to make it to groups and at 2-1 TSM seemed most likely to not get in, but because IMT lost TSM had to win. So you know what TSM does next proceed to get destroyed all day by every team in group. Only the first MSF was competitive. TSM shouldn’t even board the plane back. I don’t want to sit through another year of “ we are working to make you proud at worlds”. Which at this point is a TSM trademark. The moment I saw NA Jayce make an appearance, I thought WTF. I understand that Sven and DL sucked a big one today and hauntzer is good and played well but damn I hate NA jayce.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=TheLastHopee,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=00000007000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-14T12:00:06.864+0000) > > Yeah moron I switched back to my 2014 FNATIC icon, go check my pick em’s or any YouTube comments under the same name, NA fans are cancerous and you deserve all the heartbreak you just got from the TSM disappointment yet again. When I checked your post on boards here I only seen two posts and they just so happened to be after the epic FNC comeback nothing before that. Which is why I made my comment. You start by calling someone a moron then say NA fans are cancerous. Nice job
Panman18 (NA)
: Believe in NA they said :/
> [{quoted}](name=Panman18,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-10-14T11:13:16.110+0000) > > Believe in NA they said :/ Yup they hyped NA and you know what happens when you hype NA.
: > [{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-10-13T04:59:58.060+0000) > > So far the only pick in my pick-ems that is correct is LZ taking first place in group B, and now that RNG has lost to G2 (an EU team) I predict that my pick-ems are going to all be wrong...except that Korea will come out in 1st in every group because when all else fails bet on the region you hate the most but know always wins. Sad times for NA...and China..and anyone not named Korea or Europe. You are correct about NA but not China. XD If NA all get eliminated, please support LPL, at least they are the only hope that can defeat LCK in 2017!! #proudofbeingChinese #LPL
> [{quoted}](name=WeCantStop,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2017-10-14T06:03:55.654+0000) > > You are correct about NA but not China. XD If NA all get eliminated, please support LPL, at least they are the only hope that can defeat LCK in 2017!! #proudofbeingChinese #LPL Also your wasting your time. Magnus has stated multiple times that he is biased towards NA. So no matter what you say he will still say NA and KR is great and everyone else is trash tier. His post are kinda dismissive since he is too extreme with his choices. While your posts make you seem like your being a jerk. Most people knew that NA isn’t on level of Korea and with China except RNG underperformed week 1 looked like the regions were all getting closer to second.
: > [{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2017-10-14T06:51:58.255+0000) > > Also it is worth mentioning that the LPL still sucks, just look at how RNG lost to G2 (a wildcard team). oops i need to rephrase now. Despite the fact that WE spared TSM another chance, they still lost... #NAstillstucks ;D
You can’t say that WE was really good then say that TSM had to hope that really good team beat MSF. Pretty much after WE played this week people expected them to dumpster MSF as well
: so uh. NA will win over the most dominant region right? IMT could challenge SKT right? I guess it isn't "hypothetical" now is it. Fact of the matter is you were way overrating NA and they ARE light years away from Korea its not close and probably wont be close
> [{quoted}](name=Mazacardo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000e,timestamp=2017-10-12T18:20:26.256+0000) > > so uh. NA will win over the most dominant region right? IMT could challenge SKT right? I guess it isn't "hypothetical" now is it. Fact of the matter is you were way overrating NA and they ARE light years away from Korea its not close and probably wont be close Uh wouldn’t it still be hypothetical? Based on the definition. The only time it wouldn’t is if they did play each other
: > [{quoted}](name=Mazacardo,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=00000005,timestamp=2017-10-10T22:09:45.599+0000) > > I completely disagree. Korea is still light years ahead of everyone else. Its not close really. Every year western fans want to say the gap is closing but in the end Korea still proves them wrong. NA has gotten stronger just from the eye test but to say they will become the most dominant region is no offense wishful thinking by you. If anyone is going to take over Korea its going to be China. They have the biggest player base and talent base region in the world and have just as much infrastructure and money invested into their game as NA if not more. There is just no evidence for you to assume that Korea is going to be taken over by NA. Now I'm sitting on my toilet and laugh at those who thought IMT was gonna make into quarter or semi or even finals. HAHAHAHHAHA sorry, but they really were so optimisitc.
> [{quoted}](name=WeCantStop,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=000000050004,timestamp=2017-10-12T15:24:33.071+0000) > > Now I'm sitting on my toilet and laugh at those who thought IMT was gonna make into quarter or semi or even finals. HAHAHAHHAHA sorry, but they really were so optimisitc. I believe I only saw one person claiming that IMT would make quarter or semi. Most assumed they would make it out of groups. Which before that day looked like a lock. If you said otherwise you would have looked like a fool.
: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha NA fans LUL sorry about IMT hope you guys dont go 0-10 again
> [{quoted}](name=TheLastHopee,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=000000070002,timestamp=2017-10-13T00:55:18.080+0000) > > hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha NA fans LUL sorry about IMT hope you guys dont go 0-10 again Yeah you believed in FNC so much you probably just switched to your old icon. Guess bandwagons know no borders.
: I like FNatic as a team, so I'm relatively content with them making their way in and I was able to just watch their wins and not have such a depressing day... but.... damn, how the hell did Immortals implode like that? lol
Don’t really care about FNC but I did have them second in pick em. Even though CLG isn’t at worlds this year IMT is giving me an authentic CLG worlds.
: Uh oh. It's happening again,
Like watching KT Rolster try to make worlds, I watched IMT fail multiple times. just one win they get in but they shit on the hopes that three NA teams make it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Captain Tea,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000b00010000,timestamp=2017-10-11T15:48:46.840+0000) > > That doesn't illustrate the full picture though. The only reason C9 is currently second in group A is because EDG is severely underperforming, not because C9 is overperforming. As of now, group A is probably one of the easiest groups. > It is difficult to assess the relative strength of C9, because they haven't had any competitive games yet. In one game they pretty much got stomped by SKT, in the two other games they won fairly cleanly because the other two teams didn't show up. Meanwhile both IMT and TSM have had several competitive games. > > Since its hard to assess C9's strength, all you can do is make a comparison based on the NA summer season results. And there, C9 was completely outclassed by TSM and IMT. That C9 shouldn't even have made it to Worlds to begin with. EDG underperformed your preconcieved notion of how good they were. A notion that last week at least, was in error.
> [{quoted}](name=BigBellBrute,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000b000100000001,timestamp=2017-10-11T17:46:41.076+0000) > > EDG underperformed your preconcieved notion of how good they were. A notion that last week at least, was in error. So based on that we can safely say that group C and D are harder groups? Because the community preconceived notions were that MSF was garbage. When does the narrative change that Group D is second hardest group to make it out from or does it stay the same since we like to hate on TSM?
: Yes, but they aren't 3-0 and they don't have a Korean team in their group. Out of all the NA teams they are the only one to lose to a non-Korean team, and it was to a European team at that.
> [{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000000030000,timestamp=2017-10-11T13:40:16.121+0000) > > Yes, but they aren't 3-0 and they don't have a Korean team in their group. Out of all the NA teams they are the only one to lose to a non-Korean team, and it was to a European team at that. Well got to change that comment. The team that was “better” than RNG lost twice to an EU team and to a wild card. Thanks IMT for getting the 0-10 started. At least FNC saved my bracket I wish they didn’t though
: Gotta love that week 2 NA flop.
> [{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000a0000,timestamp=2017-10-11T08:30:33.888+0000) > > Gotta love that week 2 NA flop. And it’s fitting that IMT started it off
: IMT and C9 do not have the easiest groups, they both have rather difficult groups. If you were to put any of the other teams (except for maybe RNG) into an SKT or LZ group than you would not see the same level of success. As goes TSM, they aren't bad they are just stylistically mismatched this year.
I have to disagree if any other team gets IMT or C9 spots the same happens. SKT and LZ at the top and the other teams fighting for second. Having a clear number 1 seed makes it easier to prep. No one expects SKT and LZ to drop a game it’s possible though. So IMT has to beat a terrible FNC and GAM to get second. While C9 got worlds debuff EDG and a team that everyone stated was worst team from LMS. I don’t know how those groups aren’t easy. The only hard group is group C thank fully they got 1907 to push around. While group D is turning out to be the most competitive group
: > [{quoted}](name=Rathimas,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000000b0001,timestamp=2017-10-11T15:13:41.173+0000) > > I agree on AHQ and EDG played SKT tougher and were more of a challenge to them then the steamroll that was SKT vs C9. I can’t agree on TSM and IMT being better than C9 since C9 is the only team not ranked where most would have put them. TSM is first and IMT is second which most would have Expected for those two. Before the start of groups I had EDG second and C9 has surprised That doesn't illustrate the full picture though. The only reason C9 is currently second in group A is because EDG is severely underperforming, not because C9 is overperforming. As of now, group A is probably one of the easiest groups. It is difficult to assess the relative strength of C9, because they haven't had any competitive games yet. In one game they pretty much got stomped by SKT, in the two other games they won fairly cleanly because the other two teams didn't show up. Meanwhile both IMT and TSM have had several competitive games. Since its hard to assess C9's strength, all you can do is make a comparison based on the NA summer season results. And there, C9 was completely outclassed by TSM and IMT. That C9 shouldn't even have made it to Worlds to begin with.
If you have seen any of my other post I agree that group A and B are easier groups than we thought before hand. Because AHQ is the team we thought they would be and EDG shitting the bed. While FNC being this bad and having GAM makes B just as easy. Group D is more competitive than was thought even though I never agreed on why people were so low on MSF and so high on FNC. What I should have said was that C9 is playing to their strengths and look better doing it than TSM and IMT. So while I think TSM and IMT are the better all around teams, C9 is winning doing what they do best. Which I think C9 is doing what they need to do. Week 2 we find out who’s the best.
: > [{quoted}](name=C9 Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=wOWcg2Xo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-10T18:04:16.812+0000) > > C9 and IMT have the two hardest groups and are thriving. EDG and AHQ are not weak teams yet C9 was able to make them look like wild card teams ... Korea is no longer a guarantee anymore, and if C9 and/or IMT cleaned up their play we could very well see an NA win over the "most dominant" region. Sorry, but when someone claims C9 is a strong team I just can't help but disagree. You severely overestimate the strength of C9. C9 didn't make anyone look like a wildcard team, EDG and AHQ made themselves look like a wildcard team. AHQ initiated unfavorable fights while they could just back off, handing over free kills in the early game. They also teleported after objectives were already taken, giving up any pressure they had. C9 didn't do anything this game, AHQ lost it themselves. EDG is just playing bad in general (Scout was overextending constantly in their game vs C9), this has nothing to do with how C9 played. C9 got completely dismantled by SKT, whereas the other two teams had a better shot. It seems history is going to repeat itself, and follow a similar pattern as last Worlds. SKT is going to claim the #1 seed and C9 gets the #2 seed for free, because the better team (EDG) isn't showing up. Last year C9 got a free pass out of group stage because FW lost twice to iMay (arguably wildcard level), and couldn't close out one of their games versus C9 (which showed the inability of FW, not how good C9 is). C9 always seem to have luck on their side. They hardly ever make plays themselves, they completely rely on other teams making mistakes against them. And when teams face C9, they all of a sudden seem to have forgotten how to play. TSM and IMT are playing a lot better than C9, and if they make it out of groups, I see those two teams advancing further than C9 (depending on knock-out matchups). Though in all honestly, NA making it to the finals is a long shot. They aren't playing on the level of any of the 3 Korean teams or RNG.
I agree on AHQ and EDG played SKT tougher and were more of a challenge to them then the steamroll that was SKT vs C9. I can’t agree on TSM and IMT being better than C9 since C9 is the only team not ranked where most would have put them. TSM is first and IMT is second which most would have Expected for those two. Before the start of groups I had EDG second and C9 has surprised
: I think you're being way too optimistic about NA's chances, looking at your posts in this thread. It is good to be confident in your region, but you also have to look at the games rationally. Yes I admit C9 is good at capitalizing the mistakes of other teams, but that doesn't necessarily make them a good team. I believe you have to be proactive and dare to make plays to be considered good, otherwise you only win because the other team isn't good enough. If AHQ runs in 2v4 or 1v4 immediately followed by another 1v4, you can hardly praise C9 for capitalizing on that. Even a bronze team can win 4v1 if the enemy just mindlessly runs in. If in a soccer match you win with 1-0, because someone from the other team kicked the ball into his own goal, would this mean that the winning team is good? No. As teams become better, they will make less mistakes, therefore the chances of C9 winning greatly reduce. On multiple occassions have you said IMT almost beat LZ, but this is a bit far-fetched if you look at the match realistically. Korean teams are generally late game focused teams, so it really isn't weird that another team may have a gold/kill lead over them pre-20 minutes. LZ won with the baron they got, lets consider the standing before they took the baron. IMT were up 1.5k gold at 25 minutes and turret score was even. In no way was IMT in a prime position to close out that game. Once LZ got the baron, they closed out the game within 5 minutes, a game that was dead-even at that point. This says a lot about LZ, and even more about IMT. They got completely run over. You make NA teams out to be way better than they actually are, and you put too much focus on individual games. BO1 games are very diffent from BO3 and BO5s. Just because a team makes it out of groups doesn't mean they have a serious shot at winning Worlds. MSF have looked rather impressive in their games, and they may make it out of groups. But in no way do I expect them to have any serious chance at winning Semi-finals (and then only if they get lucky with their Quarterfinals matchup).
LZ with a baron to end game is what good teams do at that point in game. So that was expected the thing that was unexpected was IMT making it competitive till that baron. Everyone was saying LZ is the best Korean team and should make finals, the team with khan, BBD and pray and gorilla who beat SKT in the finals. For IMT to hang in with them is why he has some hope. Even if his extreme NA bias makes him dismissable.
: #NABiasBestBias
The problem with that extreme bias, it makes anything else you say unbelievable. Like I agree on some points you said about C9 but hard to defend the IMT being better than RNG. Or how TSM sucks because they lost to an EU team. When IMT barely beats FNC a team that was stomped by misfits in EU playoffs. That doesn’t inspire me to say they are at the level of RNG. It just tell me thank god they got an imploding FNC and GAM in their group.
: You wouldn't even believe how many people want to underrate C9 and say that TSM is the best NA team at worlds.
no one is underrating C9 I hate C9 and I have said they are the best performing team at worlds currently. Even if TSM was 3-0 that group is so unpredictable. In group A with AHQ being exactly what everyone thought they were and EDG being bad, a previously hard to win group is now easy. Again I think C9 is the best playing team from NA with TSM and IMT being pretty underwhelming. Though IMT almost winning against LZ was in my opinion more noteworthy than TSM beating WE.
: No, they won’t be meta slaves and bad teams will he the ones to do cheese picks, but if only one match matters, and those cheese picks win, NALCS starts to look very different.
Yes they will be meta slaves since if the meta wins games then there is no need to try different comps and like I said bad teams will pick cheese comps. The good teams know cheese won’t work in a Bo5 so either they stick with the meta in prep for playoffs and international events or they start cheesing themselves. Which of the latter happens I think that would suck for LCS fans
: WE looks like it should be a wildcard team, RNG looks to be on par with IMT, and SKT/LZ aren't invincible. If TSM "should be" the NA team that goes to finals than why did they lose to an EU team? Also, percentage based "chances" are highly inaccurate and only truly exist to show bias. If I were to guesstimate the chances of NA making it to finals, I would say it's closer to 30% than 0.1% chance (especially if more than one NA team makes it to semis). #NABiasBestBias
I have read most of your post on NA teams and this is one of the most biased one in a line of many. Know way in hell is RNG on par with IMT even the most devout NA fan boy wouldn’t say that. RNG looks like the best team at worlds so far. IMT barely beat a terrible FNC team. Not to mention SSG and G2 would kill to be in group B Which was deemed the group of death. Having GAM and a bad FNC makes B an easier group. Then you say WE should be a wildcard team that’s nonsense. WE isn’t dominating like people expected but are competitive and if in knockout stages can beat a Korean team. The pre tournament look at groups everyone said Group D was the group of life since every team that wanted make it out wanted this group.
: To be fair, TSM still hasn't looked good in victory either. TSM fans need to be nervous.
TSM has to worry because except for FW playing poorly and they still had competitive games, every team in D can beat each other which makes the group unpredictable unlike the current situations in A and B which seems to be locked. Group C can see some potential upsets with G2 placing second over SSG. TSM going 3-0 week one would have just meant they were a lock to make it out.
verxion (NA)
: TSM bracket is the easiest bracket of them all, put SKT, LZ, RNG, SSG or even EDG which holds 0-3 with them then for sure TSM wont be having 2-1 standing right now. Im even more impressed with C9 taking the 2nd seat in the Group A when in fact this is the hardest of all the group, i placed them last in the world pick'em. NA players are playing well individually but as a group i think they are still way behind LCK with a big margin. The only thing i like about TSM game style is when they lure their enemy to an objective( dragon or bottom tower) then they will rush Baron turning the tides in their favor even if they are behind.
why be surprised they got second? We all knew SKT would be first and all C9 had to do was beat EDG and AHQ all possible. A looks strong but if your only shooting for second is third easiest group
Jèdo (NA)
: And some Fnatic members say there are issues with the team behind stage, which can really affect their mentality in the next week. And also Soaz was basically flaming his team on twitter saying like oh, the enemy team could probably win if they pick teemo or said, I wish I can farm 20 minutes without worrying about my team, how sad. I agree.
Soaz isn’t wrong he is playing the champs the team wants but doesn’t get help in top at all. Which is fine if the lane that is being pushed over him gets ahead and uses that lead. The IMT game was the closest I seen that happen and rekless just dives the notorious POB and got clapped by kog
: Thoughts: Definitely think you over-rank IMT. Personally, I think GAM is the better team in their group; they just need to be smarter in champ select and show some restraint (in their game vs. IMT, they gave up Xayah and Rakan, and the Kayn pick was foolish IMO), though it wouldn't exactly surprise me if that kept them from the quarterfinals. TSM is definitely better than you give them credit. I think they got too comfortable/cocky in their game vs. Misfits. I expect them to 3-0 Week 2. If they don't, then perhaps your ranking is justified. Fanatic is definitely the worst team right now. They look absolutely horrendous. Certainly 1907 Fenerbahçe, for having nearly defeated Samsung Galaxy, deserve more credit. All in all, this will be an interesting Week 2. I think it's very possible EDG, FW, and FB take home a win before the end of groups. Mostly I think Week 2 will expose inconsistent teams and test how teams adapt from their first game with each team.
Agree with you on the over ranking of IMT. They aren’t performing that much better than TSM and should be 1-2. C9 is clearly playing their style and it’s working. They look the best of the three NA teams so far. TSM group is the group of life because every team that wants to make it out wants to be in this group and it’s possible for every team in this group to win against everyone else. But overall it looks possible that all three NA teams make it out. The one team that might not is TSM. C9 got AHQ which people said was worst LMS team, and thankfully EDG at worlds is a thing. While IMT group looked tough at the start the dumpster fire that is FNC happened. Add in a GAM this is a pretty easy group.
: I would put RNG between (LZ, SKT) and (C9, IMT). Probably A+ tier. They are probably just a level above C9 and IMT and are arguably a top 3 team in the tournament right now.
I agree the so called group of death and RNG is handing it to every team in their group. SKT looked shaky at times. While LZ played easier teams based on groups. RNG looks unstoppable right now. They are the best team currently
: Worlds 2017: Group Stage Week 1 stats breakdown
Honestly I think people are over hyping how group D is the easiest group at worlds. When a group with a clear 1# is present like A-C you just have to play above the weaker teams in your group. EDG shits the bed at worlds, and AHQ is not good at all group A seems easy. You know SKT is going to win so C9 just has to play good enough to beat the two worst teams. To get out in group D you have to bring it every game. Misfits were being shown to be weakest team from EU but I watched their games they were good in playoffs before they lost knocking out teams like FNC which were supposed to stomp them. Group B is just FNC not showing up while group C is just a hard group at least they have a wildcard team to beat up on.
: I personally don't agree with the decision. And it sure seems that most fans feel the same way. But the reason NA lags behind as a region isn't so much the BO1s don't prepare teams for World's. At least it's not one of the biggest reasons. It's more of just the complete infrastructure that exists in Korea around the eSports industry is way ahead of where NA is. I do think that BO3's do have a small, positive impact on preparing teams better because they get more games in. If I actually trusted Riot in their statement about improving practice and scrimmage time with NA teams, I wouldn't mind it so much. But Riot's history is just very poor and they've always come across to me as greedy money-grubbers. At least in this instance, they are being honest when they say that BO1s make us more money. If you really are pissed off about this, you could just boycott watching the NALCS starting next year. If enough people do that, then Riot will surely reverse the decision. If there is one thing we can trust Riot to do, it's act in the best interests of making them the most money.
People do point to the Korean infrastructure as being why they are a top region. Even their lower tier teams benefit from that, but they get Bo3’s against the best teams in the world. NA has just had what everyone considers the most competitive split ever, our bottom teams can only get better by playing more games vs our top teams. Riot wants a team besides CLG, TSM, and C9 to win a split which was mentioned in announcement. Which this change seems to help make that possible. Remember spring split the meme was TSM always lost game 1 with new changes we don’t have TSM in playoffs
: I really liked best of 3. If my team lost I knew the other team was better currently and my team needs to improve. In best of 1, my team loses, I am left with contempt that the other team got lucky.
But your a CLG fan, this year CLG was one of the best game 1 teams. I agree though Bo1 doesn’t determine the better team.
Qrio (NA)
: WOW! Bad decision. I never posted before but felt the need to post. If the issue is that fans aren't watching the streams as much, why not keep the BO3 format but only have commentators on some games (to save cost)? But have the players play out all the games and maybe even stream all games without commentary. It will be less cost for you while still giving the players the chance to better prepare. Plus, you will also get sufficient viewers for the games you cast with commentary. This just feels like a bad decision for NA and ultimately the players who work so hard. Please stop handicapping NA and instead help the region improve and become more competitive.
Crazy thing is a lot of comments start the same “ I never log in or post comments but......” I’m in the boat. I know I wasn’t surveyed. I wasn’t happy with Bo3, I was in love with Bo3. I would watch even bottom tier teams maybe not full series but 1 or two games.
: Good luck getting people to watch unpopular teams and not just leave when their favorite team's Bo1 is over. Along with the fact that it is less games overall it will also reduce competitive games since it will be all or nothing on 18 shitty best of ones. hahahahahahah nice move Riot.
Exactly riot actually made it easier to watch less league. People will use bad Bo1 to do something else. Atleast with Bo3 I fall I toolbar a break I would stillness be able to watch the teams playing
JNasT (NA)
: Agreed! Three times would be ideal too. Less tiebreakers. I'm glad you liked it, wasn't expecting an Immortals fan to approve of my last paragraph haha, I'm just salty cuz C9 had to go through a lot to make it to the Worlds Group Stage while finishing in the same spot as IMT in Spring Split. I guess we should've just beat Dignitas and never been in this situation. Either way, glad to see you guys at Worlds! Rooting for y'all
The reason why I rather have IMT be the second seed is simple. The currently best playing team should be higher. Besides Jensen C9 had a bad year, Almost anyone would say IMT was better this split than C9.
: For once, I have to agree with the crowd. This isn’t the greatest idea from a competitive standpoint. The Bo3, while taking longer to complete, more accurately showed the strength of each team. TSM, for example, lost their first of three in a series several times this season, only to come out once more on top because they could win the series as a whole, showing their overall strength on the local stage (international is a different beast). It also shows if a win/loss was a complete fluke or not. It allowed the teams to prepare for the length of the series if/when they got to the international stages. The rest of the international teams play in this format quite a bit from my understanding, and NA in has looked more impressive overall as of late due to the extra practice. It can allow for more cheese strats, which, while entertaining for that one match, can be seen to fall apart beyond that point, because the whole purpose of those strategies are to catch your opponent off guard to snag a win. But when teams play more than one match, that strategy loses weight, as they might get one win from it, but ultimately, like earlier in my post, the stronger team still wins. On a personal note, Bo1 and a single stream won’t get me to watch the teams I’m not a big fan of. I’ll probably still avoid most TL or Echo Fox matches, because I’m just not a fan of those teams. Yeah Split streams are a pain, but I prefer that and have actual competitive strength over watching all those extra matches.
Remember TSM playing Gal mid beforehand it became a thing ? Or when parth went on the dive and said TSM’s bad drafts were due to testing non meta picks? Good teams aren’t going to be meta slaves and bad teams are going to draft cheese comps.
: For a company that trots transparency around in making decisions and business practices, you really need to provide qualified analysis of your findings here. This is by far the worst possible decision that could come to the NA LCS period. If you think viewership problems are the issue, why don't you copy LCK's format/scheduling? They have a Bo3 and they manage to get all their games in because people are willing to watch the games over 6 hour streams 4-5 days a week rather than you cramming all the content into two days on two streams. Common sense here says why don't you ask your viewers if they'd be interested in more days of LCS rather than shrinking down games and going back to Bo1. Rather than try to get everything in on Sat/Sun why don't you do Thursday-Sunday and do Thursday games as literal Prime-Time games. You have an Emmy Award Winning Executive Producer there who I'm absolutely positive can coordinate and run a prime-time show, for those who don't want (or don't have) traditional TV services, this is a great option. Start at say 7PM EST which would be 4PM CST and play for 6 hours a day, assuming you have 6 one hour games in 2 Bo3 Series. That means at the latest you'd end broadcast at 10PM CST/1AM EDT. I personally am already up that late already and wouldn't mind sticking around to finish LCS, especially seeing as that if it's gone that late already there's probably been some excellent competition earlier in the day and I'm already hyped. I want to know who got polled for these changes? Did you just do ballot-box style polling in the LCS studios and not bother to ask any online fans? I know I've never seen on any survey anything related to e-sports content, and there hasn't been anything on Twitch, the Broadcasts, or even in-client. This seems like a move to increase marketability but even then, I don't understand how less games makes streaming rights and advertising dollars more profitable, and my background is in Television Production and I have been a Television Producer and currently work in the entertainment industry. I'm not even going to comment on the competitive integrity issues this brings up, and how this literally is a slap in the face to every single person who just paid the franchising fee to have you turn around and change this on them, because I highly doubt that even with NDA's in place, you informed potential franchisee owners of this SUBSTANTIAL change in format that could very well cause some future franchisee prospects to become disinterested. NA has actually put up a good showing this year so far at Worlds, and even in the NA LCS. There's a definite bridging of the gap, but I doubt we're gonna see that success continued to be grown upon because when teams aren't playing, they'll be grinding solo queue and streaming. No team is gonna bootcamp 24/7 or scrim 24/7, and there's likely to be less of that with this new Bo1 format. Other folks have commented on these points well better than I have and I'm not going to beat that dead horse (unless it's Hecarim in which case screw that dude). The only "positive" that may come from this is that you'll see more fiesta games as teams pull out cheese comps just to win a Bo1 game, but the entertainment value of that is like a WWE wrestler getting a cheap pop from the audience for stating the name of the town they are in that weekend. It's not sustainable, and it certainly will wear off, and when viewership numbers tank even more as a subsequent result, you'll have to consider even more drastic changes or revert to Bo3 without admitting you fucked up. I don't see a single person in this rapidly growing comment section that is expressing approval over these changes. I doubt they are similarly being expressed in a positive manner elsewhere on social media like Reddit, Facebook, and Twitter as well. If you read all this, thanks for your time, and I can only hope my comments are read by those with decision making power and that this change is reverted.
It is better for new owners. They don’t have to compete with a TSM vs C9 stream. So they can get eyes on their advertising
: For a company that trots transparency around in making decisions and business practices, you really need to provide qualified analysis of your findings here. This is by far the worst possible decision that could come to the NA LCS period. If you think viewership problems are the issue, why don't you copy LCK's format/scheduling? They have a Bo3 and they manage to get all their games in because people are willing to watch the games over 6 hour streams 4-5 days a week rather than you cramming all the content into two days on two streams. Common sense here says why don't you ask your viewers if they'd be interested in more days of LCS rather than shrinking down games and going back to Bo1. Rather than try to get everything in on Sat/Sun why don't you do Thursday-Sunday and do Thursday games as literal Prime-Time games. You have an Emmy Award Winning Executive Producer there who I'm absolutely positive can coordinate and run a prime-time show, for those who don't want (or don't have) traditional TV services, this is a great option. Start at say 7PM EST which would be 4PM CST and play for 6 hours a day, assuming you have 6 one hour games in 2 Bo3 Series. That means at the latest you'd end broadcast at 10PM CST/1AM EDT. I personally am already up that late already and wouldn't mind sticking around to finish LCS, especially seeing as that if it's gone that late already there's probably been some excellent competition earlier in the day and I'm already hyped. I want to know who got polled for these changes? Did you just do ballot-box style polling in the LCS studios and not bother to ask any online fans? I know I've never seen on any survey anything related to e-sports content, and there hasn't been anything on Twitch, the Broadcasts, or even in-client. This seems like a move to increase marketability but even then, I don't understand how less games makes streaming rights and advertising dollars more profitable, and my background is in Television Production and I have been a Television Producer and currently work in the entertainment industry. I'm not even going to comment on the competitive integrity issues this brings up, and how this literally is a slap in the face to every single person who just paid the franchising fee to have you turn around and change this on them, because I highly doubt that even with NDA's in place, you informed potential franchisee owners of this SUBSTANTIAL change in format that could very well cause some future franchisee prospects to become disinterested. NA has actually put up a good showing this year so far at Worlds, and even in the NA LCS. There's a definite bridging of the gap, but I doubt we're gonna see that success continued to be grown upon because when teams aren't playing, they'll be grinding solo queue and streaming. No team is gonna bootcamp 24/7 or scrim 24/7, and there's likely to be less of that with this new Bo1 format. Other folks have commented on these points well better than I have and I'm not going to beat that dead horse (unless it's Hecarim in which case screw that dude). The only "positive" that may come from this is that you'll see more fiesta games as teams pull out cheese comps just to win a Bo1 game, but the entertainment value of that is like a WWE wrestler getting a cheap pop from the audience for stating the name of the town they are in that weekend. It's not sustainable, and it certainly will wear off, and when viewership numbers tank even more as a subsequent result, you'll have to consider even more drastic changes or revert to Bo3 without admitting you fucked up. I don't see a single person in this rapidly growing comment section that is expressing approval over these changes. I doubt they are similarly being expressed in a positive manner elsewhere on social media like Reddit, Facebook, and Twitter as well. If you read all this, thanks for your time, and I can only hope my comments are read by those with decision making power and that this change is reverted.
It is better for new owners. They don’t have to compete with a TSM vs C9 stream. So they can get eyes on their advertising
: What a disappointing decision. NA is continuing to grow its competitiveness internationally, there were so many interesting series, and games were on enough I could tune in really whenever I wanted to see some games and if not, well, that's why God invented VODs. I get Riot's desire to increase viewership, and franchised teams desire to normalize the league, but this will do tremendous damage to NA's presence internationally. I can't even understand the viewership angle really; the rest of my friends are your "casual viewers" and they're having a hard time justifying watching even just their favorite team when a cheese strat, bad comp, or misplay can decide an entire day. I don't have Riot's data and I guess there's an army of super-casual viewers out there who just don't care; I'd love to see their opinion, or at least Riot's data on this.
Another thing that isn’t brought up is Riots on air talent like casters has gotten better because more people aren’t casting games
: I heavily disagree with this notion. If there are less games being played overall, I will have enough time to actually watch every NA LCS team play, and will also be able to watch other regions play. As it stands right now it is basically impossible to watch all the teams play and follow their storylines week to week and that really sucks. Let alone if I ALSO want to watch SKT longzhu Kt Samsung or whichever korean teams ALSO play their B03's in a week. Too many games IS a bad thing for the viewer, I like this change a lot.
Why when Korea plays on a different day than NA? You should be Moreno upset that NA stream is held until EU finishes. We also were the same fans that complained we couldn’t watch delta fox games and that they should stream all of challenger series
: B01s absolutely determine the best teams on average though. Look at worlds right now for instance, in every single group that had an odds on favorite, that team went completely undefeated in their B01 games. And it's not like playoffs are also going to be B01's so you'll still get back and forths there, but this is just strictly better from a watchability standpoint and that really really matters.
Bo1 don’t determine the best team, a misplay in a game equals a loss. And Bo1 don’t show how a team adapts. If we went Bo1 this year CLG would be 1# seed in playoffs since they came out the gate swinging in all their game 1’s.
Amocoru (NA)
: I never post on this forum, but I have to. This is a TERRIBLE decision. I've asked everyone I know that watches NA LCS regularly and they all feel exactly the same way. BO3 are more competitive and when games are more competitive they draw in higher viewership. People don't want to watch the other games because the teams are absolutely terrible and we're not really learning anything or engaged by their level of play. Of course everyone tunes in for TSM, C9, and CLG. Don't even kid yourself and pretend this is what's best for the fans. This is what's best for you and nothing else. Edit: I'm still not going to be any more interested in teams like Echo Fox until they step up and prove they can be competitive. This is going to be moving them backwards, not forward.
I kinda agree. The BO3 system made me more willing to watch those teams. I watch as much league as I can on weekends and if it’s sunday and my team is done for the week I’ll watch Echo fox vs TL or any of the bottom teams. With Bo1 I can just comeback in an hour to skip those games
: NA LCS: Format update for 2018
How about NALCS start on time. No one wants to wait because two EU teams are deadlocked 60 min into a game. If most of these changes are for casual fans to watch more games, I think they wouldn’t care about another region.

Rathimas

Level 20 (NA)
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