Rioter Comments
: Same logic as: Why do you get sent to jail for hitting a minor. Because the rules are rules. Follow them and play or don't follow them and get punished.
I've gotten banned and punished despite following the rules multiple times. Riot doesn't care even for their own rules.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=MPt2hHLl,comment-id=000300020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-27T22:54:05.213+0000) > > Very good. Now show me where it says Hillary lies about nothing. > > Please understand. I don't like either of these candidates. However if I have to pick between the two, I would prefer to pick the one candidate that doesn't scoff and laugh at congress' face while lying to them about everything they brought her in for. I never said Hillary doesn't lie. I said that people who think Trump is somehow a better choice are idiots. I'd prefer to pick the candidate that doesn't call Putin a great leader because he complimented him once.
Is he not? He's been in office for years, he's been portrayed as a strong leader and he has yet to screw up Russia to the same degree that we have to our own. You don't have to like people to state good things about them. If Putin wasn't even a good leader, he would have been removed from office by now. By force at least. Shoot, he's been giving us issues when we keep trying to solve the issue that is Libia. If Russia never got involved, Libias war would have been done already. I know very well that Trump will lie about things. He has yet to lie in front of high-positioned members of government and laugh in their face like Hillary has. The fact that Hillary has no respect for just about everyone makes her unfit in my view, let alone lie about issues that got americans killed in the past. Let's not forget that she was a hardcore racists not too long ago. You can see past videos where she spoke in congress and tried to pass clearly racist bills. Why the black community would vote for this woman, I do not know. Trump to my knowledge has yet to lie about something he was involved with that got people killed.
: RIOT YOUR NOT GONNA REMOVE MY CONTENT WHEN I AM WARNING YOU ABOUT A PLAYER
Why would they? I've been ruining players experiences in game for the past year. Im still here. They will never ban me, nor will they ever ban the player you've proven. Riot doesn't care.
: How is the built in client voice chat going to be policed?
Why would it need to be policed by Riot? If it's for sake of toxicity, then use the mute button. Why bother having a mute button if you never use it?
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=MPt2hHLl,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2016-09-26T19:29:07.901+0000) > > Please pardon me if Im missing something. But if he has, please share what he's lied about. > > From what I've seen so far, even though he's changed stances on several things, the thing he initially wants to do is still there. He's made adjustments about building the wall, but he's still building the wall. He's made adjustments on policies on benifits to certain groups of people, but he still plans on making the policies he cited. Where are the lies? http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/24/us/elections/donald-trump-statements.html here you go
Very good. Now show me where it says Hillary lies about nothing. Please understand. I don't like either of these candidates. However if I have to pick between the two, I would prefer to pick the one candidate that doesn't scoff and laugh at congress' face while lying to them about everything they brought her in for.
: ***
Nope. Haven't been banned yet. Just keep getting threatened with Permaban for the past 7-8 months with no direction as to what is considered acceptable behavior. If I had been banned, I wouldn't need an approved log to base my behavior off of. PrincessBubblegum, the Rioter im talking to atm, is telling me to say nothing and only talk if it's something objective about the game, yet he/she will not confirm that doing this will not get me reported/banned. I've asked for one example of what would not be considered reportable/punishable and yet he/she will not provide anything. I even told them they could use the advice they provided to give an example log to follow, they refuse to do it saying that it's still reportable/punishable... Im not throwing a fit for being banned, it hasn't happened yet. Im upset that Riot is taking the stance that anything and everything is reportable/punishable and there isn't a single log/behavior that isn't considered acceptable.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=MPt2hHLl,comment-id=0003000000020000000000000002,timestamp=2016-09-21T00:11:29.355+0000) > > At least he never went on public television and said "It's all white peoples fault for everything wrong with the black community. We're sorry" Like Hillary did. > > You say that he only says what people want to hear. Name one thing Hillary said that wasn't what people wanted to hear. She jumps on the bandwagon for just about everything. If the argument is that Trump only says what people want to hear, then you'd be daft to think that Hillary does this less than Trump does. Oh i know. The problem is Trump can literally say Obama made ISIS (he did...in a way) and people would cater to him, that guy has an extraordinary charisma, a great campaign, and Hillary shot herself in the foot multiple times.
While the comment he made about Obama is an exaggeration, it still has some truth to it. Obama seems to condemn ISIS as long as they're over seas yet makes excuses for them when they're here in the US. He caters to the Muslim population even when their ideologies are extreme compared to other faiths and beliefs ideologies. So while Obama isn't personally the person who made ISIS, he's not exactly making any strides to do anything about them. I personally don't like catering but it's just something you have to do to get what you want. I would prefer that if you have to cater, dont lie about it. Hillary was an active racist at one point in history as well. Unfortunately people are too concerned about being PC in order to actually care about it.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=MPt2hHLl,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2016-09-21T00:17:58.659+0000) > > I personally don't like either of them, but if I had to chose I'd go with Trump for only one reason. > > He has yet to be caught lying about something. "He has yet to be caught lying about something" {{sticker:zombie-brand-facepalm}}
Please pardon me if Im missing something. But if he has, please share what he's lied about. From what I've seen so far, even though he's changed stances on several things, the thing he initially wants to do is still there. He's made adjustments about building the wall, but he's still building the wall. He's made adjustments on policies on benifits to certain groups of people, but he still plans on making the policies he cited. Where are the lies?
: Trump is clearly a far better candidate than Hilary. She is everything wrong with politics and belongs in jail. His policies are better and he is proud to be American, instead of calling them deplorable or lazy.
I personally don't like either of them, but if I had to chose I'd go with Trump for only one reason. He has yet to be caught lying about something. For the most part he's been sticking with his original ideas (The wall, helping the military/veterans, etc) but he's made adjustments to what his idea's were. Hillary on the other hand has lied to the public on several things and even scoffed at congress knowing full well if she played the "I didn't know" card, nothing would happen. So the choice from my perspective is either someone who changes their mind on certain things but not too much to deviate on what they want to do, or someone who will flat out lie to your face as well as congress and insult just about everyone who isn't voting for her. (Putting people who aren't voting in her "Basket of deplorables"...) Forget either of them running for president, I would just prefer being around someone who's a bit wishy washy yet still decent to be around than a person who's fake and lies to me to my face while most likely saying crap about me behind my back.
: > [{quoted}](name=Serial Memer,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=MPt2hHLl,comment-id=00030000000200000000,timestamp=2016-09-20T22:51:03.231+0000) > > Dude i'm so conflicted, i don't want Hillary for all she's done but i feel she'll at least have an idea of what she's doing > > I don't want Trump either but i want him more than Hillary and it's weird because he has literally no experience in the office and speaks louder than no man > > Fucking kill me The problem I have with Trump is he comes off as a populist who doesn't have any real idea about what he's talking about. He just says whatever he thinks people wants to hear, even if it ends up outright conflicting with something he's already said.
At least he never went on public television and said "It's all white peoples fault for everything wrong with the black community. We're sorry" Like Hillary did. You say that he only says what people want to hear. Name one thing Hillary said that wasn't what people wanted to hear. She jumps on the bandwagon for just about everything. If the argument is that Trump only says what people want to hear, then you'd be daft to think that Hillary does this less than Trump does.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LLdEQ7zX,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-06T04:51:27.631+0000) > > Just need 1 chat log of what Riot considers positive behavior. > > I dont need "Use common sense" You won't get very far then.
Im still waiting. It's gotten me pretty far considering I've been doing this for the past 5 years without having to use everyone else' definition of common sense. Why would only now be an exception?
Joltv2 (NA)
: I believe ya. When it comes to stupidity, Riot knows no bounds.
You'll get a kick out of this then. Princess Bubblegum (The current Rioter answering my tickets) just gave me a chat log of one of my games and said "See? You're doing better already"... Only one problem. The ticket he/she gave was one while I was still under chat restriction. xD So in other words, the thing I've been telling Riot to do for the past 7 months to fix this verbal problem with me now has evidence that it works. If they permamute me, then it solves the problem. They've shown that chat restricting me is already solving the problem. Why not make it a permanent thing? If it gets the job done, keeps me from having to hear them threatening to permaban me for another year straight and gets me buying their stuff again, wouldn't this be a win-win for everyone?
: But yet it's okay if riot employees do it? Look at my gyazo and other proof of Riot doing the same.
Well of course. I'm not saying that because I support what they're doing. I say this because these are people who have a policy of enforcing the rules NOT when they're broken, but only when it becomes convenient for them to do so. Because these are people who police themselves and don't have anyone other than themselves to answer to, they will always be an exception to their own rules. Last I checked, most corrupt governments in the world followed a similar regime. But that's just me. I don't like them. They don't have the players best interests at heart, do nothing to prevent the majority of in-game behavior other than when people are acting up (Unlike Blizzard who fixed the majority of things griefers/toxic players do) They're purely reactive in dishing out punishment, yet do nothing to prevent the actions being done from being able to be done to begin with. They need to be more proactive and actually make it so that regardless of who it is in game, it should be difficult if not impossible to ruin games regardless of what is said or done.
RedTao (NA)
: I have to though, and here's why. Riot wont permamute anyone because "It makes them act out in other ways". I've been asking them to permamute me/remove my chat box so that it's no longer an issue. That's where everything in this issue stems from. Remove the source = remove the problem. However, the only thing they're telling me to do is stop talking... So the circular logic is Toxic players act toxic if they dont speak, but we want you to shut up... Do you see the issue here? By this logic, if I stop talking all together, then all I have is my crap playing which is almost always me feeding. I get reported almost every singe game because of my crap playing. If Im not allowed to speak and Riot says toxic players that dont speak just feed/troll, then im going to be permabanned anyways. This is Riot's stance and line of logic. It's stupid, but not talking will not keep me from being permabanned.
> There is no magical 'positive chat' that will keep someone from being permabanned for griefing or intentional feeding or any of the other ways that someone can intentionally ruin someone else's game. I have never made the claim that there was. However, the fact that noone in the entire community, including the employees of Riot, can produce a single log of any kind that cannot be punishable or reported for any reason just by the logs merit only strenghtens my belief that anything and everything is punishable. If apoligizing for your mistakes is considered "intentionally ruining other players games" then this community will never have the positive environment they want. > you should consider playing custom games vs bots or friends to improve basic aspects of your game like CS and efficient roaming before returning to matchmade games with strangers I did... For 5 years... I cant get any better. I tried. My playing is crap, bottom line. Playing bots does not help me get any better. Why bother doing bots when you get reported there as well? You still get paired with random strangers, you still get reported for being crap? Im sorry... but I cant get any better. Even when I try I get reported. People just dont care.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LLdEQ7zX,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-06T04:51:27.631+0000) > > Just need 1 chat log of what Riot considers positive behavior. > > I dont need "Use common sense" You won't get very far then.
Please clarify. Explain what you mean and why
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: Okay, I'm starting to get what you are saying... But what you want, in this case, isn't just the logs. It's really the entire context in which they were said... which includes what actually happened in the game. Sarcasm exists... so a "gj" **can** be the equivalent of calling somebody noob. I never said that was the way I read it all the time. In fact most of the time I will give people the benefit of doubt. If somebody attempts a dive and doesn't even manage to deal any damage before getting killed, then that "gj" is unambiguously sarcastic, and thus negative. But as said, even then, without the context of the time it's difficult. Let's take a look at a phrase that was coined to some degree in LoL and then over time changed in meaning: "Worth it." Originally, most people used it as a way to brag when they had sacrificed their champion in a way that gave their team an advantage... or even just themselves. Think, diving, killing three enemies then dying. Over time, however, people started saying it even when it was obviously not worth it, but they had gotten at least something out of the trade. Leblanc lands a full combo on you, but you auto her once? Worth it. Nowadays I almost only see the second version of the phrase. If I see it these days and I'm not sure, I'll assume it's not a brag, but gallow's humor. I hope that clears up both, why Riot can't really give you an approved chatlog (well, they could, but it could be worthless by tomorrow, and it would not be a guarantee to not get banned), and also how it still works to punish negative behaviour... because it's always seen in current context. That's also the reason why what you call "community standards" are this important in terms of determining what to punish. Community standards are the way to determine what is currently considered/said in a negative way. Regarding "This is toxic no matter how you look at it.", that's just a simplification. There's nothing I can really think of that is **actually** negative in all possible contexts. Let's take a look at one of the things that are frequently said to be bad in all contexts: The word "%%%got" is perfectly acceptable in the context I am currently using it in, because I'm merely using it as an example for a slur. It's also acceptable in the context of talking about musical instruments in German (and making a minor typo). It's impact as a slur also might change over time. "%%gga" is nowadays a somewhat accepted word, maybe something similar happens to "%%%got". But here's the thing: Abstract discussions about words happen rarely... It's also unlikely that a bunch of Germans meet and start talking about musical instruments in LoL. So... technically, it's not toxic in all contexts... but it is in most contexts today. And given how long it takes to "reclaim" words, it's also probably going to be toxic in most contexts tomorrow. Saying it's not acceptable in any context is just easier than explaining what exact contexts it's allowed in, and when not. Just like it's easier to censore the words on the forums, simply assuming that most of the time they'll be used in a negative way, rather than assuming they are part of an abstract discussion about words.
> what you want, in this case, isn't just the logs. It's really the entire context in which they were said... which includes what actually happened in the game. What happened in game should be irrelevant if there's such a thing as a chat log that has absolutely nothing wrong in it that's reportable. If that's the scenario in which the logs are taken from, then it's relevant. If, however, the logs are based on a game where everything went right for your team the entire game, then that's just as good. The scenario is irrelevant, I just want something that Riot will say that there's something that exsits that has no business being reported. Otherwise, my stance that anything and everything is reportable still remains true. The fact noone can point to a log and say "This is not reportable" yet point to hundreds of logs here on the boards shows this. Even you yourself said that it's impossible to show a log that noone will find anything wrong with. It matches my stance that everything is reportable no matter how polite/positive you were. > Sarcasm exists Of course it exists. I never said it did. You're making the assumption that we're on opposite sides on this. Im not trying to oppose you on every little thing. We're both on the same team here. We just have different views. > I never said that was the way I read it all the time I apolize for this then. It was not my intent to portray you like that. The way you presented yourself gave the impression that you saw negative,sarcastic comments everywhere so it played a role in my response. > I hope that clears up both, why Riot can't really give you an approved chatlog (well, they could, but it could be worthless by tomorrow, and it would not be a guarantee to not get banned) This makes two points. 1) It makes the summoners code irrelivant and the community standards impossible to follow. Because in a log in anyones game could be considered not toxic one day, but then someone looks at it the next and think that it's toxic instead, this means that positive behavior will never exist in LoL. 2) Everything can be considered toxic no matter how positive anyone is. Much like the examples you've been giving all the stuff that by all means should be considered positive comments are now all considered negative. So because all positive comments are all considered negative, it makes being positive in chat impossible. Thus making my permaban in inevetibility, not a possibility. > That's also the reason why what you call "community standards" are this important in terms of determining what to punish. I disagree. As I've said before, the way you portray that all positive comments/phrases can all be considered negative makes the community standard impossible to follow. Because not only is it not written anywhere for people to follow, but it considers everything said as negative, even when the comment itself is positive. You have people who love to josh each other, we've met one at least once in our lives. But because some people call each other names to josh each other, it's still considered negative behavior. Im sure you've had at least 1 person in game who said something like "Dude, you suck at this game" who would say later "LoL, jk.". You could know the person and know already that the person didn't mean his comment in any actual negative way. But if he should be reported for it by anyone and Riot sees that, they don't care what your relationship to this person is. It's a negative comment without someone knowing the relationship you have with this person. Which makes the stance you've made "Positive comments can be negative" possible, but makes "Negative comments could be positve/neutral" impossible. > Regarding "This is toxic no matter how you look at it.", that's just a simplification. There's nothing I can really think of that is actually negative in all possible contexts. You've read my logs that I've posted here. Could you honestly say that after reading my logs you would have any doubts in saying that they weren't toxic no matter how you looked at them? I was under the impression that this what just about everyone here on the boards was saying. Excuse me for picking at your choice of words, but it would more accurate if you had said "Most things I cannot really think of that is actually negative in all possible contexts" Im sorry if this was offensive, it's just an inconsistancy I spotted. It does not mean your views/opinions are any less than what they were. I see the your example with certain words being used in certain ways and it being acceptable. However, what you have to know is that there's one distinct thing that makes any use of the word a punishable offense. When someone reports you for it. If any person did not like you using the word or the way you used it, it's considered offensive/negative talk. If a Rioter sees someone is reported for calling 1/multiple players the N-word/F**got, the immediate mindset they have is more than likely that someone is using hate speech. There have been a few threads I saw here in forums where someone was in a game with friends and had maybe 1 person who was not in their group. The friends would trash talk each other in the game, all in good fun. But because the 1 person who was not familiar with these people reported them for it, one of them got banned for negative behavior. This was later fixed when they all submitted a ticket explaining the situation, but the fact that even if the context/meaning of the language was not meant to actually verbally assault another person, it can still be considered a punishable offense. Now, if Riot had a feature where you can have an alternative chat box where only you and whatever friends you had in your match in to talk to without outsiders being able to see what you were talking about, you could be as verbally free as you wanted. Instead what we have is a box where everyone sees everything and everything could get you punished if someone doesn't know you or that you talking to someone in a particular way is just your normal way of talking to one another. I've spent the past 7+ months apoligizing for every little thing possible that could have been my fault. Im generally a nice guy and hate offending other people. Sadly im also very apoligetic irl, i've been this way as long as I can remember. It's my natural fallback thing to say when I can't talk to people. So when I have no ability to speak to people without any way of not being taken the wrong way, (Like you said, everyone can be considered sarcastic and negative even if it's a postive comment) then apoligizing is all I can do. People have called me an intentional feeder for my bad playing more times than I care to remember. Before I was able to point out that I don't get ganks or someone never called MIA. Now however, there's no comment I can give to them that woudln't be considered toxic/negative other than saying it's my fault and apoligizing for it. Even if it wasn't. Saying that someone needs to ping more is considered an insult because it can be seen that way. (Even if they need to) It doesn't matter if you had good intentions when you said it and it would help the game. It can and will be seen as a personal attack because it can be if people choose to see it that way. Shoot, even when I apoligize for something and say it was my fault I still get people saying im a troll and that I was intentionally trying to lose us the game. It didn't matter if what happened actually was my fault or if I was genuinely apoligetic. Because people choose to see and apology as negative and accountability as a confession of trolling/intentional feeding, it will never be considered anything but what people want it to be. This is why toxicity will never not be a thing in LoL and never stop being a major thing in LoL. Because literally anything can be seen as toxic. This is why Im so frusterated with how Riot has chat made up. There are so many ways to set chat up to help keep toxicity out of the chat room, but they just wont do it. They would prefer to wait until something does damage to do anything than do anything preventative. Being reactionary does not stop problems, it just means they wait for something to be a problem to do something about it. Being preventative means that you actually take steps to mitigate issues before they cause damage. Until they become preventative and not reactionary, they will never win the war that is toxic behavior. Blizzard has pretty much won their war against it in their Moba because they became preventative. Riot needs to do so as well. *I know I can be seen as stubborn. But I hope that the few things I admitted I was wrong for and apoligized for above shows that Im not completely unreasonable. I've done this a few times before but it can be easy to overlook when you already have a certain view on a person. Before this response you gave I had an image of you that you were stubborn as well and had an issue figuring out how to express my view in any ways that you would understand. I think I have a better idea as to how you view things and what they mean to you now. I hope to continue learning more about you through your responses so that we can hopefully come to an understanding with each other even if they're differing views*
o Maui o (NA)
: Saying nothing at all won't ever get you punished. There's no reason to get so twisted up and bent out of shape over chat. If you really are at a loss on how to properly use the chat feature, then just don't use it and you'll be fine.
I have to though, and here's why. Riot wont permamute anyone because "It makes them act out in other ways". I've been asking them to permamute me/remove my chat box so that it's no longer an issue. That's where everything in this issue stems from. Remove the source = remove the problem. However, the only thing they're telling me to do is stop talking... So the circular logic is Toxic players act toxic if they dont speak, but we want you to shut up... Do you see the issue here? By this logic, if I stop talking all together, then all I have is my crap playing which is almost always me feeding. I get reported almost every singe game because of my crap playing. If Im not allowed to speak and Riot says toxic players that dont speak just feed/troll, then im going to be permabanned anyways. This is Riot's stance and line of logic. It's stupid, but not talking will not keep me from being permabanned.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: First off: > This has been the ONLY thread I've made asking for a log that isn't considered reportable/punishable. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/AvqYoU8o-i-need-a-list Secondly: Saying nothing is not the only positive thing you can say... But it's the only thing that could possibly meet your absurd standards, because it's the only thing Riot can ever give you a guarantee on. Want to know why? Because this part of what you say could not be less correct: >Good morning will never have the same meaning as "Go f**k yourself" I've heard **plenty** of "Good morning"s that were really "Go fuck yourself"s. I've also heard "I'm sorry"s that were really "I don't care"s. And more than any of these, I've read "gj"s and "wp"s that were really "fucking noob"s. In a world where sarcasm exists, **any** phrase or word can be twisted by 180° depending on context. I can even give you a real-life example, that is not that different from your problem: In Germany you are not allowed to give an ex-employee a negative reference. A "secret language" emerged as a result. Statements like "He lightened up the office climate" now in a reference really means "He was constantly drunk at work"... There are absurdly many other codes like that, which as a result made it so these phrases, too, are not allowed to be written in a reference letter. Because the lawmakers, as well as the judges interpreting the law, luckily understand that if you want to make sure a reference is "benevolent", the **intention** behind the words is just as important as the words themselves. Note: Im not talking about whether or not such a law is sensible to make... but if you do decide to create such a law, this is the only way to do it properly. So if you as an employer were asking what phrases you can use that are guaranteed to be allowed by law... you would get the same answer as you do when making this thread: Language is complicated, and it constantly shifts, and there can never be a guarantee that what you say today will still mean the same thing in 10 years, 10 days or 10 minutes. And that means there can never be a static list of things you are allowed to say. People can give you examples of positive behaviour **in today's context**. But they cannot give you anything that is "Riot-approved", outside of empty chatlogs. Because, truth to be told... if people were given a list of Riot-approved phrases that are allowed, there would be plenty of dicks that would find contexts in which they can use those exact phrases to insult people. Humans are inventive. That's what makes us great as a species... and it's what makes it so horribly difficult to create rules without loopholes. To lighten up the atmosphere and kinda relevant: http://explosm.net/comics/2243/
> I've heard plenty of "Good morning"s that were really "Go fuck yourself"s.I've also heard "I'm sorry"s that were really "I don't care"s.And more than any of these, I've read "gj"s and "wp"s that were really "fucking noob"s. You're projecting an imaginary tone into the things you're reading. That's not the writers fault, this is yours. If there was a context in the comments that would imply it was sarcasm, then I would give the benifit of the doubt. By themselves, it's only you that make them insulting. >http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/AvqYoU8o-i-need-a-list This was not asking for logs, it was asking for words and phrases. From the above comment I made, this is what makes this thread irrelivant. I realized that having a list of words/phrasses would exclude the context that are other things said with them. It's essentially looking at a tree and ignoring the forest. I've had a few people say this and I was able to reflect on that and see that they were right. So now Im asking for the opposite. Im asking to look at the forest and if none of the trees make it a bad thing. If all you were looking at were the words by themselves and get that impression you said you had with them, then im sorry. But you're a more chronic pessimist than I am. At least I give the benifit of the doubt rather than jumping to conclusions if there's no evidence that something isn't what it is. > In a world where sarcasm exists, any phrase or word can be twisted by 180° depending on context. So in your view, LoL is a big world of sarcasm... And this is why people will be banned for saying gj? Good morning? Im sorry? Because no matter what context it's given? This is the heart of my struggle with this whole debacle. The fact that punishments are dealt out more on HOW PEOPLE FEEL than WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID/DONE. > Language is complicated, and it constantly shifts, and there can never be a guarantee that what you say today will still mean the same thing in 10 years, 10 days or 10 minutes. And that means there can never be a static list of things you are allowed to say. If this were the case, then why bother enforcing "negative" behavior? If language is as complicated as you said, then there shouldn't be such a way to say "You said this and that's bad" The issue I have with this is that you and the majority of the community have all the examples in the world to point at and say "This is toxic no matter how you look at it" but you have nothing you can point at and say "no matter how you look at it, it's positive". There's such a disparity between what's good and what's bad that there's literally no representation as to what good behavior looks like vs what bad behavior looks like. Thus why I've been having issues with the matter of behavior. The argument that anything when interpreted how you want is negative, but there's nothing that exists that no matter how you interpret it as positive.
Prandine (NA)
: I'm seriously starting to think that you may need some professional help (no offense intended there of course). If you won't listen to us then maybe you'll listen to a professional counselor of sorts.
No offense taken. I've already been talking to professional help. They're Riot's Behavioral specialists. I've been talking to them for almost 7 months now. No progress with them unfortunately. Again, as stated in the thread heading, if you provide a decent sized log (So I have substantial content to use) and a Rioter saying the log is not punishable, then that's all need. Otherwise you're just making a biased statement to make yourself feel better. Sadly for the past 14 months all i've had to talk to is masses of people who get offended by everything I say, hateful people who love belittling others and people who want handouts (Money, RP, Skins, etc) Noone with anything nice to say. In that sense, it would be surprising if I didn't need mental help at this point. But when the only company you have are people who do nothing but insult and loathe you, you would be a bit mentally unsound as well.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: And how exactly does it do that? Besides... that's still not the same as offending somebody. And it's **still** not what that Rioter said, meaning you still have no source for your claim that this is Riot's stance.
Someones being toxic, person talks to them regarding toxicity, person reacts in toxic manner, instead of muting toxic player he/she continues to get reactions out of toxic player. Essentially "Feeding the troll" logic. you're correct, it's not the same as offending someone. I never said that it was. Wobbly Jibbler says it's not our responsibility to defend ourselves. Why bother saying this unless there were reprecussions for doing so? You have countless threads here with people defending themselves against players. Granted not in the most civil of ways, but in doing so they're considered toxic players. "It doesnt matter who started it or who provoked you.". So no matter what, if you defend yourself, you will be punished.
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LLdEQ7zX,comment-id=000200000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-13T18:32:58.232+0000) > > Will you at least acknowledge that I had a valid reason for changing the standard of the thing I was asking for? If not, please explain why. I understand you're confused as to why your ban was reduced/removed if memory serves (I don't remember which one off the top of my head), but again I have to point you back towards the "moving the goalposts" fallacy, where it seems that whenever you get an answer to your question (usually with facts to back them up) you dismiss them and ask for other stuff. This gives the impression that unless it's what you deem to be perfect you won't accept any answer given to you. > I have never doubted that some people want to help me. However, people like TruelyBland keeps doing what they can to get responses out of me. When I asked for a log to base my behavior with and he/she provides a blank sheet of paper and say "Do this", this is pretty much saying "Shut up". Continuing the metaphorical conversation I then say "Ok, is there anything I can actually say?" To which TruelyBland says "No, just shut up."... This is disrespectful no matter how you look at it. I've asked for one thing and TruelyBland has turned into a debate about how there are a million ways to show/point at negative/toxic behavior, but there's absolutely nothing you can point to and say that it is positive/good behavior... Other than a blank sheet of paper. That's the only thing he/she has pointed at that displays positive/good behavior. I don't think they meant to say "shut up", but you have to admit that you have been making it very difficult for people to try to help you out when you seem unwilling to accept any answer given to you that you don't agree with (or at least not ones that you couldn't twist and corrupt to fit your own viewpoints). > Please ask me whatever questions I've been dodging and I will answer. I've had no issue with expressing my opinions on things to my knowledge in the past, so if I have not answered something in the past, i apoligize for that. I'm afraid that that's not an area I can really help you with since I haven't been following the conversations between you and others very intently. That's something for the likes of TrulyBland and others to answer for you. > I dont doubt people are frusterated with me. This is why I asked for the 2 things above. I made it clear that if I get those 2 things, you will never have to hear from me ever again. I would have nothing else to complain about because I have what I need to reform. The fact that people like TruelyBland has argued with me about everything yet never provided that thing I asked for shows that some people like him/her are only here to get professionally offended. I dont want to offend people, I genuinely dont. But until I see something that shows me that no matter how it's interpreted that it couldn't be considered offenseive, then there's nothing I can do that wont offend people. From what I've seen (and again, people like TrulyBland can help out on this if I'm wrong or missing stuff) people have been trying to provide examples from you. Heck, even a Rioter gave you some guidelines in a ticket. Because they don't seem to be up to your standards though you dismiss them and ask for different stuff constantly. Again, it's the ["Moving the Goalposts" fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts): >**Logical fallacy** Moving the goalposts, similar to "shifting sands" and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too. _______________________ > Would it be safe to assume that you are one of the 95% of the playerbase that has never been punished for anything? If so, would you be williing to donate a log from your games for Riot to appraise and say that following your example would help players like me behave better? Probably. I've never gotten a Reform Card, but like I said earlier I tend to keep things gameplay related (I.e. "mid mia", fizz flash down", "ward in bush", etc.) while also apologizing if I make a mistake or mess up something, such as when I accidentally wall off my teammates with the enemies when what I was really trying to do was create a wall in-between them instead. If Riot wants to show some logs from my games I have no problem with it, but even if that does happen what guarantee do I have that you'll actually listen?
Again, would you agree that I had to change the standard of what I was asking for (1 log and a rioter approving it) to a more specific one (A log with actual words on it and a rioter approving it)? Because what I did not want was a blank sheet of paper and being told that this was the only thing that's considered acceptable behavior. > I understand you're confused as to why your ban was reduced/removed if memory serves At first, yet I was confused about my behavior. It was in accordance with the summoners code in every aspect in the way I interpreted it. (I've made arguements about how open to interpretation the summoners code is as well.) Then I was confused when I was declared reformed for continuing the exact same behavior that got me temp banned. This shows that there are double standards in which Riot is selective in what they enforce and what they do not. They know perfectly well that my behavior has and still is 100% toxic, but they do nothing about it. Allowing me to continue to ruin players games with my "Acceptable" toxicity. And now I'm confused because everyone is pointing at everything and saying it's all toxic behavior, yet the only thing anyone has been able to point at and consider positive behavior is a blank sheet of paper. > it seems that whenever you get an answer to your question (usually with facts to back them up) you dismiss them and ask for other stuff. Please understand, when I argue with people when they present their evidence, it's because I have evidence that makes their irrelivant. For example, when someone say something is a fact "Because XXXX said so", I have to keep showing Wobbly Jibblers comment saying "It doesnt matter what other Rioters say. We make the final decision here and they have no voice here." I have nothing against facts. Facts are facts. But when you have a Rioter saying it doesnt matter what other Rioters say, it makes the argument of "This guy said this" pointless. So yes, what im looking for is the perfect answer. Anything less than that means that it's not a fact/solution. > you have to admit that you have been making it very difficult for people to try to help you out when you seem unwilling to accept any answer given to you In this thread, there has only been 2 people who provided something. One was a makeshift log (Which I had no issue with) but nothing from Riot saying that there's nothing wrong being said in it. Because of this, I cannot use it without risk of getting permabanned. The second was a black sheet of paper in which the excuse of this was "This is the only acceptable thing anyone can do" > I don't think they meant to say "shut up" This brings me back to my argument: Interpretation trumps intent. This is Riot's stance on everything, they've already admitted this. It doesnt' matter if he didn't mean to make it sound that way or not. Because it can be interpreted this way, it makes his comment a toxic/negative one. This would have been punishable by Riot's standards. In this aspect, Riot encourages "twisting and corrupting to fit your own viewpoints". > I'm afraid that that's not an area I can really help you with since I haven't been following the conversations between you and others very intently. That's alright. Just be sure to let me know if I do this with you and I'll be sure to address it as prompt as I can. > people have been trying to provide examples from you. Heck, even a Rioter gave you some guidelines in a ticket. Because they don't seem to be up to your standards The issue with the examples provided is that they don't fall in Riot's standards. Riot gave guidelines, but they dont help me see what they want from me. I've tried saying nothing before, I've tried saying only a few things, I've tried being all cheery. Every single one got me that popup saying I was reported. So when a Rioter says that doing something wont get you reported, it's a lie. you can be reported for just about everything, you can even submit reports about things did not do. So seeing that I'm getting reported even though I do what was asked, it makes it pointless to continue doing them. The only thing that has not resulted in getting punished/reported is my current toxic behavior, so I will continue to do so until there's something else that Riot will confirm I will not be banned for. The "Dont say anything" suggestion still got me reported in the past and there have been players who were banned with blank chat tickets given to them. So saying nothing does nothing to keep me from getting permabanned. > you dismiss them and ask for different stuff constantly Please provide an example. I will do what I can to explain why I did so. > . If Riot wants to show some logs from my games I have no problem with it, but even if that does happen what guarantee do I have that you'll actually listen? A question as old as time. The fact is, no matter what I say/do, you will not have any guarantee that I would. The thing with past arguments and now is that there was no ultimate goal to reach. There was no conditions and standards that wasn't established and held to. Now, however, I've made the task, condition, and standard clear. Give me logs I can use, have a Rioter approve them, and I will use it. If the logs are insufficient to use, then i cannot use them. If a Rioter does not approve of them, then the logs are useless because it's just speculation, not certainty that noone would be punished if they talked like in the chat. So when you ask "Can I trust you'll do this" it's the same in the aspect that it's what Im asking Riot/Community. "If I do this, will I be punished" It's a matter of mutual trust. If there's no trust on either side, then there's no consensus for either party. So I will say this. If I can get Riot's word that if I do as shown in a log and not be punished, then I will give mine to change my behavior to the logs example. You would never have to hear from me here ever again since I would have no reason to be here anymore. I would have gotten what I needed, I would have nothing else to say in regards to behavior and how Riot handles it. Provide me the 2 things I asked for and it takes away anything I have to complain about.
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=INJNXw8Q,comment-id=00070000000100000001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-13T18:18:36.084+0000) > > This right here. To disagree with anyone about anything can be considered both negative and disrespectful. You're being negative because you dont agree with someone and you're disrespectful because you're disagreeing with them. Because of this, if you defend yourself by even disagreeing with someone, you're subject to reports and punishment. There is no neutral/positive way to disagree with someone. Disagreements, by nature and definition, are negative. You're lawyering. You can disagree with someone without being rude and disrespectful while doing so. There are plenty of people whose viewpoints I disagree with, but I don't go out of my way to constantly attack them on it. In fact there have been plenty of times where I've had a pleasant discussion with people even though we've disagreed on certain points. If you have a closed-minded way of looking that things where you have a "I'm always right and you're always wrong" type of attitude then yeah we're gonna have a problem. But if we present our viewpoints in a mature and respectful manner then most likely we won't be trying to bite each others heads off even if we disagree on certain points. From [The Summoners Code](http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/): >**3 Facilitate Civil Discussion** >**"To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable." -Barry Goldwater** >As we mentioned earlier, we want you to give feedback, but being part of the community doesn't stop there. Whether you're in chat, in a game, or on the forums, there are plenty of people to meet, and plenty of topics to discuss. Whether you're discussing game balance and champion viability, trying to form a premade team, or just want to express your affection for the legendary and infamous Gentleman Cho'gath, we encourage you to share your thoughts with other players. >When you choose to participate in a discussion with the rest of the playerbase, always try to be receptive to another player's point of view. If you keep an open mind, you'd be surprised what valuable information you can glean from your fellow players. Also, be mindful of how you present your point of view. If a player feels strongly on a subject, don't get caught up trying to have the last word. Just state your side and exit the conversation gracefully rather than give them the opportunity to pick a fight.
> You're lawyering. You can disagree with someone without being rude and disrespectful while doing so. Im sorry if the method of answering is offensive to you. However, you have not said how it was wrong. I know very well that you can disagree with someone wihtout being rude/disrespectful. However, by Riot's standards, disagreeing with someone creates a negative experience and encourages negative behavior. > If you have a closed-minded way of looking that things where you have a "I'm always right and you're always wrong" then yeah we're gonna have a bad time. I have no issues with admitting Im wrong. I just need evidence showing it. There's no point in defending an idea if it's proven wrong. My ego is not so large that I cannot admit I'm wrong. Look at all my comments regarding my behavior these days. I acknowledge that my behavior is bad and should not exist in LoL. However, by Riot's standards, it's considered positive/acceptable behavior. This I disagree with and I've expressed why. If someone can show why Riot makes an exception to my current behavior and why it's acceptable, then I will concede to it. Because it was proven and shown. > But if we present our viewpoints in a mature and respectful manner then most likely we won't be trying to bite each others heads off. I believe I have presented my views on these matter in as best a manner possible. I've done what I could to not belittle people, I have not been unreasonable. I've shown and explained why my views are what they are and I've acknowledged when I was inconsistant and wrong about things. I have been disagreeing without having "To be disagreeable". But because of how Riot has the system set up, to disagree is considered the same as being disagreeable because of how it can be interpreted. Not because of why something is being disagreed with. This is what happens when you disregard context and instead focus on feelings. An emotional arguement is pointless to argue with. A factual arguement however there's actual ways to come to a conclusion with.
Prandine (NA)
: Well it seems that you are finally starting to understand that people are only trying to help you, yet because you have been making it difficult by dodging the questions/responses given to you (either intentionally or unintentionally), that is why people have been getting frustrated with you. I've been playing since Snowdown Showdown Season 2, and while I do mostly play Co-op Vs. AI, I try to have the same behavior going into other modes. Whenever I use the chat I mostly use it for gameplay-related stuff. For example, "fizz flash down", "mid mia" and stuff of that nature. If my teammates seem willing to talk more and joke around a bit then if/when there's time I'll joke around as well (not to an extreme but you know what I mean). If someone is getting out of hand I'll sometimes ask them to stop, and if they refuse then I'll just mute them and try to play around their poor behavior until I can report them post-game. I fully admit that I do get angry and annoyed at times, but I never vent my anger and frustration in the chat, choosing to do it at the tv screen instead. It's because of this (and the fact that I don't intentionally try to screw over my team) that I have never been warned nor banned. Now obviously your results may vary, but basically I would recommend just trying to stick to just gameplay related stuff like the two examples that I mentioned above. Hopefully this post and the "moving the goalposts" definition post above helped you out.
> Hopefully this post and the "moving the goalposts" definition post above helped you out. Will you at least acknowledge that I had a valid reason for changing the standard of the thing I was asking for? If not, please explain why. > Well it seems that you are finally starting to understand that people are only trying to help you I have never doubted that some people want to help me. However, people like TruelyBland keeps doing what they can to get responses out of me. When I asked for a log to base my behavior with and he/she provides a blank sheet of paper and say "Do this", this is pretty much saying "Shut up". Continuing the metaphorical conversation I then say "Ok, is there anything I can actually say?" To which TruelyBland says "No, just shut up."... This is disrespectful no matter how you look at it. I've asked for one thing and TruelyBland has turned into a debate about how there are a million ways to show/point at negative/toxic behavior, but there's absolutely nothing you can point to and say that it is positive/good behavior... Other than a blank sheet of paper. That's the only thing he/she has pointed at that displays positive/good behavior. > because you have been making it difficult by dodging the questions/responses given to you (either intentionally or unintentionally), that is why people have been getting frustrated with you. Please ask me whatever questions I've been dodging and I will answer. I've had no issue with expressing my opinions on things to my knowledge in the past, so if I have not answered something in the past, i apoligize for that. I dont doubt people are frusterated with me. This is why I asked for the 2 things above. I made it clear that if I get those 2 things, you will never have to hear from me ever again. I would have nothing else to complain about because I have what I need to reform. The fact that people like TruelyBland has argued with me about everything yet never provided that thing I asked for shows that some people like him/her are only here to get professionally offended. I dont want to offend people, I genuinely dont. But until I see something that shows me that no matter how it's interpreted that it couldn't be considered offenseive, then there's nothing I can do that wont offend people. > I've been playing since Snowdown Showdown Season 2 Would it be safe to assume that you are one of the 95% of the playerbase that has never been punished for anything? If so, would you be williing to donate a log from your games for Riot to appraise and say that following your example would help players like me behave better?
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=INJNXw8Q,comment-id=000700000001000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-13T05:55:59.813+0000) > > So in otherwords: If you defend yourself, you will be punished because "We dont care who started it or if you were provoked." Because "it's not your responisibility to defend yourself" If you do so in a negative and disrespectful manner where you're just raging and flaming at people then yes you will be punished. However, if you do so in a neutral or positive manner then you won't get punished. Just remember that if it seems that no matter what you say the original flamer won't listen then it's best to just mute them and focus on the game. From that Rioter post: >The bottom line is that if you put negativity and inappropriate comments into chat, you will be held responsible for your actions.
> If you do so in a negative and disrespectful manner This right here. To disagree with anyone about anything can be considered both negative and disrespectful. You're being negative because you dont agree with someone and you're disrespectful because you're disagreeing with them. Because of this, if you defend yourself by even disagreeing with someone, you're subject to reports and punishment. There is no neutral/positive way to disagree with someone. Disagreements, by nature and definition, are negative.
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=INJNXw8Q,comment-id=00070000000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-13T16:35:58.232+0000) > > Because the response encourages negative behavior to continue, it's a reportable offense. Im sorry. If they continue on with the negative behavior even after that then just mute them and don't try to continue on. By doing so you won't be tempted to talk back to them and give them what they want: a negative response that would bring you down with them.
Yes, that is the CORRECT thing to do. However, Riot has that stance that even if you tell someone to stop being toxic, it can be considered a toxic thing to do. Telling someone to stop something can be interpreted as you trying to "Be oppresive" and creating a negative experience. Even disagreeing with someone can be considered negative/toxic becuase it creates confrontation. So when I say that the response TrulyBland gave can be punishable, that's why.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: Look, this is turning in circles again, and your posts are getting longer and longer, so I'll keep it simple and focus on the important things: You will get punished when you do things that are agains the rules. Period. What you type in chat while doing that is irrelevant. There's no combination of words you can type in chat that is going to make it impossible to get punished. Regarding (once again) community standards: > It just means it enforces the summoner's code in the context of the community standards. Since that apparently implies "community standards > summoner's code", let's just reverse it: > It just means it enforces the community standards in the context of the summoner's code. Is that better? I mean, both statements are completely equivalent, but in your logic, that should now imply "summoner's code > community standards", which you should be fine with. And saying nothing will never become a slur, because it is an extreme. Saying nothing will always be neutral, because it's basically the pinnacle of neutrality. Nothing contains no bad words, and nothing contains no good words. However, if "gg" in the future would be the equivalent of saying "I would like to come to your house in the middle of the night and rape you and every other person living with you", do you really think it should be acceptable to say "gg"? Again, we are talking about language here. Language isn't static. "Noob" used to be "newbie" and was a completely neutral term for a long time. That doesn't mean it isn't used as an insult now. If you cannot deal with that, there is always the safe option of just not saying anything, which Riot has said many many times in the past. You will not get punished for not saying anything. And that's, btw, the reason I offered this option to you. Not because I don't like talking to people. I love it. But this isn't about me, this is about you. This isn't the first thread on the subject, and you do seem to have a large problem understanding how people see your words. And in that context, saying nothing might be the best option for you.
> Look, this is turning in circles again, and your posts are getting longer and longer It became a loop because you decided to go off topic. I asked for a log I can base my behavior off of so I can talk to people, you provided none and went off in the direction that didn't result in providing what I asked for. You were the one who decided to go down this road, I just followed. > You will get punished when you do things that are agains the rules. Period. What you type in chat while doing that is irrelevant. There's no combination of words you can type in chat that is going to make it impossible to get punished. If this was the case, I would have been permabanned by now. I have only gotten worse since this season started and Riot is excusing my behavior. This has been the center of my argument these days. Riot excuses certain toxic behavior and this should not be a thing. Toxic behavior is toxic behavior. > And saying nothing will never become a slur, because it is an extreme. The fact that you have people on the news saying "white people who are silent, are violent" shows that saying nothing can be considered offensive. > However, if "gg" in the future would be the equivalent of saying "I would like to come to your house in the middle of the night and rape you and every other person living with you", do you really think it should be acceptable to say "gg"? Im not denying certain things will have different meanings. However, there are things in the language that will NEVER mean anything other than what they mean. Good morning will never have the same meaning as "Go f**k yourself" Im sorry will never mean anything other than im sorry. No matter how you interpret it. No will never mean anything other than no. I hear this twice a year in the military S.H.A.R.P.S. program regarding consent in sex. > Again, we are talking about language here. Language isn't static. "Noob" used to be "newbie" and was a completely neutral term for a long time. That doesn't mean it isn't used as an insult now. Yes. And the N word used to only be a derogitory term and now has a double standard. Much like f*g, b***h, etc. Things that were only insults in use and meaning is now used interchangibly with compliments. Thus why I'm not asking for words/phrases with double standards. Im asking for a conversation that no matter how it is looked at, Riot would not find anything wrong with anything said. > And that's, btw, the reason I offered this option to you. Not because I don't like talking to people. I love it. But this isn't about me, this is about you. The issue with the option that you provided is that it's the ONLY option you provided. It's not an option if it's the only one, it turns into a decision. A decision in which I do not want to use. I want to talk, I made that clear in the thread topic. I asked for what is acceptable to say, I made that clear in the thread topic. You say "Dont talk", which I made clear in the thread topic that I want to talk. > This isn't the first thread on the subject, and you do seem to have a large problem understanding how people see your words. This has been the ONLY thread I've made asking for a log that isn't considered reportable/punishable. And yes, I have issues with understanding how poeple see my words. Thus why Im asking WHAT RIGHT LOOKS LIKE. I don't understand why what I'm saying is wrong because I see nothing wrong with it. People like you can spend all day listing off every possible reason why something is wrong, yet when I ask "Ok, what does right look like?" The ONLY thing you can provide is a blank sheet of paper... IS THAT WHAT YOU CONSIDER RIGHT? IS ONLY SAYING NOTHING THE ONLY THING THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED RIGHT? So, I ask again. Please provide a decent sized log (With actual words on them) that Riot can say "there's nothing wrong with anything in this log. If you have no intention of providing this, then please leave the thread.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: I do it, very frequently, even. Focus on yourself and you can easily defend yourself. Just don't attack the other person. Want an example? "OMG, you're 3/10, noob!" "3/10/20. I'm a support, I don't need kills" That's defending yourself. Without attacking the person that attacked you. Without retaliation.
Because the response encourages negative behavior to continue, it's a reportable offense. Im sorry.
: Believe me, I send those reports in every time I feel it's necessary (which has been often in these more recent seasons). I can't do it alone, though. And that's the problem.
That is indeed the issue. People don't make it clear that toxic behavior is unacceptable. Because of this, Toxic behavior will never leave LoL. As long as there's that middle ground that I said exists because of this, toxic players will always have a safe haven made by the players/Riot.
: I said "most players are too lazy to report you". I didn't say I was one of them. We all have our off days (myself included) where we end up blowing steam at some random person who doesn't deserve it. Usually a single warning is enough to remind us that we need to calm down and stop playing sometimes.
You are part of the community. You have just as much ability as any other player in the entire player-base to submit a ticket showing im breaking any rule established by Riot. Yet you dont. So yes, you are also held responsible for why players like me run free. You've seen my behaivor first hand, both here and the logs provided that my behavior is, by all means, against the summoners code. We all have off days, this is true. But the behavior in which you've seen has been a constant, worsening thing that's been continuing for the past 13-14 months now. You have everything you need to get me permabanned, yet you do nothing. So yes, you are just as responsible for toxic behavior still running rampant in the game as I am. Me for finding one in which Riot will do nothing to remedy and you for saying nothing. Im sorry if this offends you. I did not want to put you on the spotlight. But if LoL genuienly wants an end to toxicity, they need to be adament in what they want to see in their games. Not wishy-washy about it. Either you want to see people like me in your game or you dont. the middle ground between these 2 points is where the most toxic players you meet lay because you, the community, wont do anything as long as they're there.
: I never saw such a stubborn stubborn guy ... amazing how stubborn you are. What ever, keep your tinfoil hat on and believe what ever do you want to believe, but plz spare us with your stuff.
To be fair, I've already shown what I wanted here in this thread. You have provided nothing in this thread in which was asked for. Im not stubborn, Im stupid. I must be considering I have to ask for these things to figure out what's considered acceptable behavior. What I believe is what I see. If there's a log in which I can read and Riot has a comment saying there's nothing reportable/wrong with anything in the log, then I can accept this. Otherwise, you have no obligation to say anything here. I have at no point asked you personally to say anything in this thread. This thread only asked for 2 things and you have provided neither. You read the thread and made your comment yourself. I have at no point made it manditory for you to say anything. So comming here to be professionally offended by anything I said was all on you. If you genuinely wanted to be "spared by my stuff" then all you had to do was go to another thread. Otherwise, you're only here to be offended and do so willingly. Im sorry if this was the case and hope you got what you came for. Please linger here longer if you wish to continue to be offended by the opinion of someone you dont actually care the opinion of.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: And doesn't say anywhere that defending yourself is a punishable offense. He just says that it's not your responsibility to defend yourself; in other words defending yourself is not a valid excuse for otherwise punishable behaviour.
When have you ever heard of someone defending themselves that didn't invovle behavior that someone found offensive?
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TrulyBland,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LLdEQ7zX,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T18:20:37.942+0000) > As well as, of course, your moving goal-post fallacy, where all of a sudden you want a decent sized log with Riot-approved messages... which btw, will never exist, because context always matters. This is language we're talking about, it shifts, it changes. What is acceptable today might be a slur in a year. Just wanted to add to this for future reference for others. Here is the [Wikipedia article on it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts#cite_note-clark-3): >**Logical fallacy** Moving the goalposts, similar to "shifting sands" and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too.
I apoligize for changing the standard in which I made the log into. Please give me the opportunity to explain why I changed it. TrulyBland provided a log that was a blank sheet with nothing said. I do not want to spend the rest of my gaming career saying nothing. I actually like talking to other players (So long as they don't get offended by comments they should not be offended by). So because the blank sheet provided was not what I was looking for, I had to better clarify what I was looking for. It was my fault not not better clarifying the standards in which I wanted the template to base my behavior. Please understand, my "End result" has always been to talk to players without being punished. If I'm only resorted to saying nothing, then saying nothing does not accomplish my goal to be able to talk to other players. TrulyBland knew very well what I was looking for, he/she was just trying to be clever. I will admit, they succeeded. But what they provided does not meet what I'm looking for in my road to true reformation. Thank you for taking the time to read this. Im sorry for the confusion.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LLdEQ7zX,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-12T16:57:01.805+0000) > > Please show me the logs that you said was 100% Riot approved and show me where they said there was nothing wrong with anything the person said. I've been looking/asking for this for a while so if you have them and the thing showing Riot said it's acceptable to speak that way, I will use this. Thank you if you can provide it. Empty logs. I gave you empty logs, in other words: I suggested you just don't type at all. Since you have such trouble identifying what is positive and what is negative, that seems like a good approach. You funnily enough in another thread gave me a screenshot of a Rioter saying **exactly** that not typing in chat will not get you punished. http://prnt.sc/ch7b2u More precisely the part where he says "Saying nothing will not get you punished. > Please provide the bogus cases that I've cited so that we can clarify why it's bogus. Otherwise you're making claims with no evidence. Seriously? **YOU** were the one who claimed people get banned for not chatting. I called them "bogus", in other words: Made up. You're asking me to show you cases that don't exist as a way to prove to you that they don't exist. > Reporting is the precurser to punishment. Riot stated that the community establishes the "community standards" by reporting things. When something is reported over and over again, even if it's not against the summoners code, it establishes a secondary set of rules that is not listed anywhere and cannot be followed since it's not established anywhere. The community standards are superior to the summoners code in that even if you break the summoners code, as long as the community accepts the behavior, then it's ok. And there we go again with your misunderstanding of how the system works. I'm not going to get into this again, but you will **not** be banned simply based on the number of reports. And you're also commiting the same logical fallacy as always: The community isn't superior to the summoner's code. If you break the summoner's code, but nobody reports you, you're fine. If you don't break teh summoner's code and everybody reports you, you're **still** fine. What gets you in trouble is breaking the summoner's code **as well** as the standards the community sets. > Take my current behavior. I've been badmouthing myself, apoligizing for everything, saying we're going to lose and that everything is my fault in almost every single game I've been playing for the past 7-8 months. I was declared reformed by doing nothing but this and I have yet to be permabanned despite the fact that everyone seems to agree that it breaks the summoners code. HOWEVER, because players don't report me for it, this is considered acceptable by the community's standards. Because this is considered acceptable by the community standards, it's not applicable to the summoners code. Players "Want" to see players act like me, so it's acceptable to do even if it's against the summoners code. Not minding something enough to report for it and "wanting" something is a difference. Other than that, exactly. It's okay in the community's eye, so Riot doesn't enforce the summoner's code. That doesn't mean Riot enforces community standards. It just means it enforces the summoner's code **in the context** of the community standards. > As it's said in the title of the thread. I want a decent sized log that someone from Riot has said "There's nothing reportable/wrong with anything this person said". That's all I've wanted, that 's all I've asked for. You have not provided me with this, so saying that Im wanting anything else is pointless since I have not asked for anything else in this thread. You didn't say "decent sized", and I provided you with a chat log where Riot **specifically** said that it is okay. The rest of your post is just you being a broken record again, repeating stuff you've already said, like how community standards trump the summoner's code, which, as pointed out, is simply **false**. As well as, of course, your moving goal-post fallacy, where all of a sudden you want a decent sized log with Riot-approved messages... which btw, will never exist, because context always matters. This is language we're talking about, it shifts, it changes. What is acceptable today might be a slur in a year.
> Empty logs. I gave you empty logs, in other words: I suggested you just don't type at all. Since you have such trouble identifying what is positive and what is negative, that seems like a good approach. > You funnily enough in another thread gave me a screenshot of a Rioter saying exactly that not typing in chat will not get you punished. I have provided the threads where empty logs does nothing to keep players from being punished. So again, saying nothing will not help me... Im sorry. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/sU5wOfFJ-proof-that-the-automated-system-is-broken Here's another one with another person saying they said nothing and got punished. A rioter said they got punished for an action performed, not their words. So as I've said before: Saying nothing will not keep you from being punished. So saying nothing is pointless. > Seriously? YOU were the one who claimed people get banned for not chatting. I called them "bogus", in other words: Made up. Indeed, I have said that people were banned even though they said nothing. I never said that they were banned BECAUSE they said nothing. If you could find where I said this, I will correct this. Otherwise, my stance remains that saying nothing will not help you in preventing you from being banned. > And you're also commiting the same logical fallacy as always: The commmunity isn't superior to the summoner's code. If this was the case, why is Riot letting me get away with my current behavior then? They know very well that my behavior has only gotten worse since this all started 14 months ago. It's been fairly consitantly toxic for the past 6-7 months now and they've pulled up my logs showing this. So it's not like they are unaware of this. > If you don't break teh summoner's code and everybody reports you, you're still fine. What gets you in trouble is breaking the summoner's code as well as the standards the community sets. As I've shown several times in the past, my current behavior breaks every aspect of the summoners code. However, because the community accepts this behavior, it's considered acceptable because it fits within the "community standards". So in otherwords: Community standards>Summoners code. > Not minding something enough to report for it and "wanting" something is a difference. Other than that, exactly. It's okay in the community's eye, so Riot doesn't enforce the summoner's code. That doesn't mean Riot enforces community standards. It just means it enforces the summoner's code in the context of the community standards. Not minding a behavior means it's an acceptable behavior. This is established by not reporting someone for their behavior. In this aspect and how Riot applies it, there is no difference in not minding it and wanting it. > It's okay in the community's eye, so Riot doesn't enforce the summoner's code. This statement by itself is the basis of the majority of my arguement. Because Riot is selective of when they decide to enforce their own rules, there's no point in following them. If they only time they enforce them is when someone is reported for months on end, then toxicity will remain in the game. Players like me and even worse than me will continue to exist and ruin players games. It should be decided when it's convenient with Riot. Theyr'e the ones who established the rules to play in this playground that is LoL. They should enforce it whenever it is broken BECAUSE its the rules they said we should follow to play here. > It just means it enforces the summoner's code in the context of the community standards. So in other words, the community standards>summoners code. Im saying that the summoners code should take precidence to the community standards on the grounds that it's the only thing written down. Not the other way around where the community standards is written nowhere. > You didn't say "decent sized", and I provided you with a chat log where Riot specifically said that it is okay. You are correct, I did not say decent sized previously. However, because you had no intention of providing a log other than a blank one, I had to elaborate what I needed. You have to understand, I need something to show me what correct is. If saying nothing is what right is, then noone should say anything in any game. Thus why I had to elaborate that there needs to be a "decent" sized log provided. I would like to be able to say SOMETHING in a game. Everyone does. Im fairly sure you do as well. That being said, with the tone you've given, I belive it is safe to assume that you are part of the 95% playerbase that have never been punsihed for whatever reason. if you would like to be helpful, would you be willing to provide a log from your own personal games that Riot can write off as you saying absolutely nothing wrong in? If so, this would be all that I would need to begin my actual reformation. Thank you if you can do so. I must have missed the log you have provided where Riot said it was ok. If you could please provide it again, it would be appreciated. If it was that blank log you specified before, then Im sorry. I cannot use that to reform my behavior since it would require me to say nothing. I like to talk to people unlike yourself as you've demonstrated in providing a blank statement. So if you could provide something with actual words in it, it would be appreciated. Thank you. > The rest of your post is just you being a broken record again, repeating stuff you've already said, like how community standards trump the summoner's code, which, as pointed out, is simply false. Please show it is false, and I will agree with you if it is not arguable. > As well as, of course, your moving goal-post fallacy, where all of a sudden you want a decent sized log with Riot-approved messages... which btw, will never exist, because context always matters. This is language we're talking about, it shifts, it changes. What is acceptable today might be a slur in a year. So your arguement here is that even if someone where to only say "GG" it would be considered a bannable offense because of the "Context" it could be percieved to be? So in otherwords, that blank statement could NEVER be considered acceptable because the context of saying nothing matters? So in otherwords: Saying nothing may be "acceptable today, but might be a slur in a year"? This is why I need something concrete. I need to know what is considered acceptable NO MATTER WHAT CONTEXT IT IS SAID IN. If your argument here is that no matter what is said, it can be considered unacceptable, then no matter what anyone does they will always be considered offensive no matter what they say. Even if they say nothing.
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=INJNXw8Q,comment-id=0007000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T17:23:41.713+0000) > > http://prnt.sc/ch7b2u > > There you go. Said by Wobbly Jibbler. They said and I quote: >I must make it clear that it is not your responsibility to defend yourself even if you feel like you are being attacked by another player. We don't care who "started it" or if you were "provoked". The bottom line is that if you put negativity and inappropriate comments into chat, you will be held responsible for your actions.
So in otherwords: If you defend yourself, you will be punished because "We dont care who started it or if you were provoked." Because "it's not your responisibility to defend yourself"
: Then consider yourself thankful that most players are too lazy to actually report you.
Which brings me back to what Riot has said. They say it's "YOUR" fault that toxic players like me exist. So congrats. By being part of the community, you're now one of ones contributing to the existance of toxic players... Thank you for not reporting me I suppose... I don't want toxicity to exist as much as you do, but I also want players to stop saying to report me for being crap at the game. We cant get what we want I suppose... Im sorry.
: >You've seen 3 logs in the span of 4 months worth of popups saying I've been reported and going to be punished. Thats' at least 100 games worth of logs that you have not seen vs the 3 that were provided. You were punished for the 3, not the other 97. Being toxic in 3 games and okay in 97 does not absolve you from punishment for the 3. >That was the best they could show me vs the logs from almost any other game where I continue to say that Im crap, it's all my fault, and every other form of badmouthing myself. You're not getting what I'm putting down. This quote above? _THIS IS THE PROBLEM_. **Stop doing that.** You said you were ever so positive in those 3 logs? No, dude, you were not. Not in the slightest. If that had been my tribunal review, i'd have pushed the red button, because literally nobody wants to read that crap. >I still got the popup saying I was reported. What popup? LoL does not issue popups when you were reported, only when you were punished by the system. >So being postiive/saying nothing does nothing but get me punished. You've got a tremendously backwards view of what "being positive" means if you think any of the logs you've posted here even _remotely_ qualify.
> You were punished for the 3, not the other 97. Being toxic in 3 games and okay in 97 does not absolve you from punishment for the 3. Then no wonder Toxicity will never be gone from LoL. Riot needs 100 games worth of toxic games to punish anyone. Just goes to show how effective their new system is. > You said you were ever so positive in those 3 logs? No, dude, you were not I have never made the claim that I was positive from any of those logs. I only ever made the arguement that in the last log that it was in accordance with the summoners code. That's it. If the arguement is that im toxic and that I should be permaban, then Riot has been letting me get away with toxic behavior for the past 14 months. Thus why I want someone to provide me with a log showing what "right" looks like. > i'd have pushed the red button, because literally nobody wants to read that crap. Well, unfortunately, Tribunal is in the hands of Riot atm. They're the ones deciding what's punishable and what's not. My current toxic behaivor is being deemed acceptable according to your standards, so there's nothing you can do about it. > You're not getting what I'm putting down. This quote above? THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Stop doing that. You dont seem to get something as well. That thing you quoted, that's what got me reformed. There's no point in stopping it when this is what Riot consideres acceptable behavior. So while this behavior is considered acceptable, I cant act any other way. Its the only behavior I've been able to find that doenst get me reported and punished. > What popup? LoL does not issue popups when you were reported, only when you were punished by the system. I dont get the popup anymore. However, if you want, I can give you the support ticket where I talk about it with Riot's behavioral specialists. That should be sufficient to acknowledge that it exists. > You've got a tremendously backwards view of what "being positive" means if you think any of the logs you've posted here even remotely qualify. Again, I've never said that my behavior in regard to the logs given was considered postive. I've only ever made the arguement that the last one was in accordance with Riot's summoners code. It was considered against the "community standards", so it didn't matter if it was in accordance with Riot's summoners code.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=dbudI0aO,comment-id=00060001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-06T22:53:52.577+0000) > > Surely there's 1 out there. How many players here in these forums keep saying "I've never been punished once in my X amount of years I've played this game". Out of the countless players who've said these things, is there not one log from the hundreds of thousands of games these players played that displays good behavior that I can model my behavior after? > > If there's no logs that these upstanding players have displayed nothing but good behavior, then why bother saying there's such a thing as good behavior? Even if it's a made up one, if it's approved by Riot saying that it's a good example of good behavior and would not result in punishment, then that's what Im looking for. I've asked for Riot to give me something to model my behavior from, but they just wont work with me. It could just be because I'm me, but I still need this if I'm going to make any worthwhile progress. Otherwise im just waiting to be permabanned. All that happens after that is that I continue the same behavior that they let me get away with for the past 13 months. That's a long time to be ruining players games with what I've been saying. I dont want to keep saying these things, but it's all I have to work with. Since most of the community is behaved enough to not warrant regular punishment, Riot uses examples of what's not acceptable (using logs from punished players) as a means to show what you can avoid. Think of it more as a warning sign, rather than a model. The thing about punishments is that you usually need to have REGULAR bad behavior or super extreme bad behavior in order to get it.
This does not help me. I do nothing but ruin peoples game multiple times every day for the past 7 months now. Riot will not do anything because it's considered acceptable behavior. I do nothing but badmouth myself, say we're going to lose, that everything is my fault and apolgiize for everything. I have players constantly asking everyone to report me for this, yet nothing happens. By all means, this is genuine toxic behavior, but Riot says it's ok. Why? I dont know. I don't want to keep acting like this. I can't change my behavior because even though it's been 7 months since my temp ban, they're still saying im going to be permabanned. There's too much risk in trying to figure it out myself now. This is why I need a log showing what right looks like. I've tried using everything else Riot has available and they failed to show me how I should behave. Why is my current behavior considered acceptable when everyone else is saying it's not? I've been exhibiting bad behavior for 13-14 months straight. By all means they have what they need to permaban me. Their "warning signs" does not help me when they ignore my negative behavior and say that it's acceptable. It's hypocritical and encourages genuine toxic behavior by their need of protecting it.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=INJNXw8Q,comment-id=00070000000100000001,timestamp=2016-09-06T23:05:23.591+0000) > > I can give you the copy/paste reply that Riot gave me saying that defending yourself is a punishable offense if you'd like. Please do.
http://prnt.sc/ch7b2u There you go. Said by Wobbly Jibbler.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: And there we go again. Just wanted to see when you'd resort to "no, you're wrong" when somebody gives you a 100% Riot approved way of not getting banned for chat behaviour. You cite bogus cases wwhere people get punished for not saying anything, you constantly mix up "report" and "punish" as if they were the same thing and generally say a lot of irrelevant things. >So if enough people report me for feeding, RIot will ban me. If that's your attitude, what do you want? You are apparently convinced that Riot will ban you no matter what. (And not even for chat related behaviour to begin with). This is like going to the doctor, asking for advice on living healthier and then afterwards going "Oh, I don't know, we all die in the end anyway. I might get hit by a car tomorrow!" If you don't believe there **exists** a way to not be banned, don't lure people in here by pretending to ask for advice when in reality, once again, you're really just whining about ~~the system~~ the way you believe the system works.
> And there we go again. Just wanted to see when you'd resort to "no, you're wrong" when somebody gives you a 100% Riot approved way of not getting banned for chat behaviour. Please show me the logs that you said was 100% Riot approved and show me where they said there was nothing wrong with anything the person said. I've been looking/asking for this for a while so if you have them and the thing showing Riot said it's acceptable to speak that way, I will use this. Thank you if you can provide it. > You cite bogus cases wwhere people get punished for not saying anything, you constantly mix up "report" and "punish" as if they were the same thing and generally say a lot of irrelevant things. Please provide the bogus cases that I've cited so that we can clarify why it's bogus. Otherwise you're making claims with no evidence. Reporting is the precurser to punishment. Riot stated that the community establishes the "community standards" by reporting things. When something is reported over and over again, even if it's not against the summoners code, it establishes a secondary set of rules that is not listed anywhere and cannot be followed since it's not established anywhere. The community standards are superior to the summoners code in that even if you break the summoners code, as long as the community accepts the behavior, then it's ok. Take my current behavior. I've been badmouthing myself, apoligizing for everything, saying we're going to lose and that everything is my fault in almost every single game I've been playing for the past 7-8 months. I was declared reformed by doing nothing but this and I have yet to be permabanned despite the fact that everyone seems to agree that it breaks the summoners code. HOWEVER, because players don't report me for it, this is considered acceptable by the community's standards. Because this is considered acceptable by the community standards, it's not applicable to the summoners code. Players "Want" to see players act like me, so it's acceptable to do even if it's against the summoners code. > If that's your attitude, what do you want? As it's said in the title of the thread. I want a decent sized log that someone from Riot has said "There's nothing reportable/wrong with anything this person said". That's all I've wanted, that 's all I've asked for. You have not provided me with this, so saying that Im wanting anything else is pointless since I have not asked for anything else in this thread. Yes, I believe Riot will ban me no matter what I do. The fact that they have a method that ignores the Summoners code in the form of "Community standards", it makes the statement: "These are our rules, but if people dont like something else, then we'll punish it." Unless Riot can fix the issue that is "The community standards" then yes, everything is punishable. > This is like going to the doctor, asking for advice on living healthier and then afterwards going "Oh, I don't know, we all die in the end anyway. I might get hit by a car tomorrow!" This is a false example. A more accurate way to say this is: You go to the doctor with negative symptoms (Negative behavior), they give you a diagnosis (Permaban), they give you a prescription (Be positive), you dont take prescription (Continue to act toxic) and you get better (Declared reformed). You ask the doctor why you got better and they say that even though you didn't take the prescription, you were cured because you did something else that has a better effect than the prescription (Community standards). This is where it becomes hypocritical. When you say that you only did things that aggrevated the symptoms (Continued negative behaivor) it made you better. The doctor said that the symptoms are what cured you. (Negative behaivor is acceptable by community standards)... So in terms of the metaphor, what got me sick is what got me better. Not taking the prescription, only by continuing to get myself sick. > If you don't believe there exists a way to not be banned, don't lure people in here by pretending to ask for advice when in reality, once again, you're really just whining about the system the way you believe the system works. It's a personal belief of mine that no matter what you do, you will get banned. This is true. But it has nothing to do with the thread. Im not complaining about the sysem here, I didn't want to. You brought it up, so now we're talking about it. All I wanted (And it's in the thread title and summary box) Is: 1) A decent sized log 2) Have something from a Rioter saying that nothing the person said is considered reportable or punishable. You have not provided the things I asked for, so you making this argument does nothing to help me. I've stated what I needed and why the advice everyone has given previously does/has not helped me. If you have an issue with this or have no intention of doing the two things listed above, then stop being a SJW, stop feeding the trolls and find a better outlet for your attention. You don't need to be arguing with someone who's trying to better themselves and said what they need to do so. Find someone who actually doesn't intend on changing. You can find plenty of them on the boards. Otherwise all that you accomplish as self-gratifying yourself by being a suck up to Riot and accomplish nothing by arguing with someone who has already said that they want to be better and stated what they need to do so. The only thing that happens is that I continue the behavior I'm doing right now because Riot's not going to ban me for it since it follows the community standards. So unless you have any intention of providing what I asked for so I can ACTUALLY reform, then submit a support ticket, tell Riot that I deserve to be permabanned, and move on. You gain nothing by arguing with. I gain everything by receiving a template of what right looks like and is not considered punishable. I will be able to stop ruining players games that's considered following the rules. You saying otherwise does not stop my behavior from being considered acceptable and does not get me permabanned.
: It's okay. Tumblr is a very sensitive community that gets offended by anything if you don't agree or defend self, & are giant hypocrites.
Ah. Im not sure if you're comparing me with tumblr or not. I believe that people have the right to be able to disagree and defend myself just as long as they're not hypocritical about their reasoning for it. My current situation regarding punishment/reward from Riot has been one big hypocritical arguement that I called out but people can't seem to justify Riot's decisions since they're flip-flopping on their statements and will not explain why they are being hypocrits.
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=INJNXw8Q,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-06T04:56:37.261+0000) > > Unfortunately they're the majority of the community. Common sense isn't "Common" sense. It's why there's so much confusion with the game and anything related to it atm. > > I get where you're coming from though. There's just no point in arguing with RIot/Community when acting like a person just gets you in trouble here. OHH MII GOD, I see you Tao everywhere. Add me, we should play sometime. But yea, no point to argue. I just try not to make people rage at me in the game, easier for me and others.
Im confused. Do you like/dislike what im saying? If you don't like what i've been saying, im sorry. Im not sure you'd want to play with me. Im crap and all I do is feed and lose games. Top that with that I seem to only upset people no matter what I do, I would prefer to spare you from me. I'll still add you, just please be aware of what I am and that I'm not trying to upset anyone.
: Again ... If you don't know what good and what bad behavior is, just say nothing.
I've done that before. I was reported after every single game I said nothing. I got that big popup saying I was reported after those matches in those 4 months before I was temp banned. So becuase I kept getting reported for saying nothing for 4 months, it means it's against community standards. Because it's against community standards, its punishable. Because it's punishable, there's no point in saying nothing. I was not declared reformed for saying nothing, I was reformed for badmouthing myself, apoligizing for everything, saying we're going to lose because of me and saying everything is my fault. This language is considered postiive behavior by the community. You know this because I was declared reformed by doing this and have yet to be banned from doing this for 8 months now. I dont think this is postiive behavior. But According to Riot, the community considers this positive behavior. Because the community considers the above behavior positive, the will not do anything despite that it breaks the summoners code.
: Woah, again: You don't get a ban for saying nothing, but you can get a ban while saying nothing (for not chat related stuff). Is that really that hard to understand for you? Edit: And Riot said many times that saying nothing is totally fine.
You get banned for breaking community standards. Community set the standards by reporting people. I was reported despite saying nothing. So because I get reported despite saying nothing: Saying nothing = against community standards. So yes, you can be banned for saying nothing. Saying nothing will get me banned. Riot saying it's ok means nothing when they say that they dish out punishment when you are not following community standards. So yes... It's that hard to understand. Because Riot will make exceptions to statements/rules they've made before because players report someone a lot of times for the same reason. Thus why I need at least one log that's approaved by Riot that if I spoke just like this person, I will not be punished no matter who reports me.
: > While I appreciate SmokedAlmonds effort, it's not his standards I'm trying to change my behavior to. It's Riot. Riot is the one who decides who's punished, who's not. What's good behavior and what's not. Actually, Riot has said that the report system is based on how we as a community act. If we decided that some new abbreviation is highly toxic and start reporting it every time it shows up, the system learns that and starts acting on it. The example they used is "your mom" jokes, where on the western servers they're fine but some of the eastern servers it's considered highly offensive. Offering to help others, being friendly and being polite are always going to be good behavior though.
> Actually, Riot has said that the report system is based on how we as a community act. If we decided that some new abbreviation is highly toxic and start reporting it every time it shows up, the system learns that and starts acting on it. And thats the issue with the system. Because I do nothing but badmouth myself, apoligize for everything and everything is my fault, this is the only thing I was able to do that got me reformed and not reported. Because the majority of the community are people who love to put down and insult others, only by placating these people by agreeing with them and making myself out to be this pitiful, miserable, self-loathing creature of a person was I able to be "reformed". I tried being positive during the 4 months I was getting popups saying I was reported leading up to my temp ban. Even in matches where I said nothing or said maybe 2 things, I was still reported. So because I was continued to be reported for doing the 2 things people say wont get you reported, it shows that the community does not want players to say nothing/postiive things. They only want players to be pitiful and stroke toxic players egos. This is the only thing that has not resulted in getting me reported, and it's what I will continue to do until Riot provides me with something that they themselves say will not get me punished.
: Okay - so thanks for the post. Keep in mind I'm not a Rioter and can't say anything with any authority, so I look at these like they would come up in a tribunal screen. **First:** You were being passive aggressive as heck. >Went bot. Happy? This is what happens when I go bot >U first >U started it Just mute them next time. If this had been my review, I'd have hit the red button. **Second:** >Not as stupid as this sion >Better than this sion, that's for sure Was that really necessary? **Third** _Extreme_ negativity, but all directed at yourself. Here's the thing - you're not insulting anyone, you're not taking the piss out of your team... but you're still tilting your team. Your team doesn't need to hear 32 lines of how you're stuck in Cardboard 1. It doesn't help them, it doesn't help you. >"Just say positive things" "Just read the summoners code"... No. This is not acceptable. I tried that. **_No_**, you didn't. I don't see a single positive thing in any of these 3 chatlogs aside from a gg at the end. Positive means helpful, not self-deprecating, not banging on for 32 lines of chat about how bad you think you suck at the game. Positive means congratulating your team when they do something right, providing good information, and apologizing when you screw up. ---- So, in your case, I can say with great certainty that two things will stop you from ever getting punished again based on the pattern you just showed me: 1. Don't argue with your team. If they don't do what you want them to do, deal with it, rather than passive aggressively sniping at them in chat. 2. Don't ramble on endlessly about how bad you think you are. You're in bronze league, not challenger. Lighten up.
The comments talking about SIon, I was Sion. So those comments were directed to myself, not anyone else. Yes. Im extremely negative. I've been this way for 14 months now and Riot will not do anythign about me. They wont ban me, they wont tell me what's considered good behavior, they cant permamute me even though I asked for it, and they wont say that saying nothing will keep me from being banned. It wont matter. > No, you didn't. I don't see a single positive thing in any of these 3 chatlogs aside from a gg at the end. You've seen 3 logs in the span of 4 months worth of popups saying I've been reported and going to be punished. Thats' at least 100 games worth of logs that you have not seen vs the 3 that were provided. Riot is very selective in showing whatever logs that will support whatever claim they make. They've shown how selective they were when I asked them why I was reformed from doing the exact same behavior as shown above. They pulled up logs from a few weeks ago where I said 7 lines only saying "Im sorry". That was the best they could show me vs the logs from almost any other game where I continue to say that Im crap, it's all my fault, and every other form of badmouthing myself. Even in games where I said nothing and kept language to a minimum, I still got the popup saying I was reported. So "being positive" does not keep people from reporting me. They dont care. You've completely ignored the logs showing what my behaivor is like now. It's virtually the same as the one I was temp-banned for. There's nothing I don't argue with anyone for any reason anymore. I just keep dying and apoligize for being crap. Even if what they're telling me to do will not work, will only result in me dying or does nothing to help, I do it. I only say that everything is my fault, that im *Insert profane insult*, and that im sorry for everything. This is what got me reformed and I will continue to do this until something else is approved by Riot. Rambling about how crap I am at the game is what got me reformed. Saying anything else will get me banned. So im sorry, but I have to say these things otherwise I will be punished. Saying nothing/positive things is still reported regardless of the intent or the wording. So being postiive/saying nothing does nothing but get me punished.
Joltv2 (NA)
: Maybe ask Riot for a chat ban? Can't flame with that.
Ive asked them multiple times. They wont do it unless its strictly for a punishment. I can provide the tickets showing them saying they wont do it if you need them.
: Honestly, I don't really feel like chasing Rioters around the internet trying to get them to say these made-up chat logs are not bannable, sorry. However, I say things like this in almost every game I play, and I haven't been punished in 6 years of playing, so I think it is pretty clear that this is not bannable. I try to use chat for: 1. Asking for help. 2. Congratulation success. 3. Trying to direct team strategy. 4. Calling summoner spell and ult usage. 5. Trying to deescalate conflict, and calm down ruffled feathers. I tried to include these things in my chat logs, follow these goals in chat, show respect to all players in a spirit of calmness, and you will not be banned. GL.
Then im sorry. I cannot use your log as a template to change my behavior. I have to stick with my current toxic behavior to make sure I dont get permabanned.
: You know, I am going to do my best to help you, I am here going to write out a rough approximation of my chat from game to game. I will try to put a general sense of what is acceptable to say. Admittedly, I have no official backing for Riot here, but I have a good sense of what is allowed, and what isn't. And I have never been banned. So here goes, this is the best I can do for you. partypanda12: Gl hf partypanda12: Jungler, can you gank top early? If I can get ahead I can snowball hard. partypanda12: Care mid. partypanda12: tp up partypanda12: bot, ward here, I will tp when they push partypanda12: gj partypanda12: leona, can you get a aegis? they are all ap partypanda12: Infernal drake up, we need that partypanda12: defend partypanda12: don't fight partypanda12: nice one partypanda12: push mid partypanda12: bait baron partypanda12: that MF ult wrecked us... partypanda12: leona and vayne, please stop flaming, we can win this 100% partypanda12: they at elder group up partypanda12: GJ TEAM partypanda12: now push partypanda12: gj, heal up partypanda12: care tp down partypanda12: Gnar ult down, partypanda12: i killed xin, quick baron partypanda12: we can end partypanda12: gg wp
Ok. This is what im looking for. Now I just need one Rioter to give their thumbs up on it and I can finally start changing my behavior for the better. Thank you for providing this for me. If you woulnd't mind helping me get Riot to approve this, it would be greatly appreaciated. They dont answer my tickets anymore. I still have tickets from a week ago that they just never opened, so I dont think I can get it done on my side. If you could send this via support ticket and get them to say "Yes, this is what we want to see" then that's all I require. Im sorry if this is an inconvenience, but I need this to be able to act.
Prandine (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=RedTao,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LLdEQ7zX,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-09-06T18:19:54.323+0000) > > If the point is dont say anything, it doesn't work. People still report you even if you don't say anything. You can see several threads here that even if you dont say anything, you can still be punished/reported. Riot made it clear that saying option does not keep people from getting punished and that if enough people report you for the same thing, that's all they need to punish someone. Im crap, I feed almost every game, people report anyone who's crap and feeds. So if enough people report me for feeding, RIot will ban me. Saying nothing does not help me. Allot of times when people say that they were banned for saying nothing, in actuality they were banned for consistently trolling via gameplay instead. Having a bad game or two won't get you punished-it's only when the Instant Feedback System detects a pattern of behavior that's similar to the kind of behavior found with intentional feeders that it issues a punishment based on that. You can be mass-reported all you want, but if the IFS finds nothing wrong then nothing will happen to you and the false reporters will get in trouble instead. That might not have been the case for you, but remember that it's not just you playing the game and that your experience doesn't speak for all. > So again, please, provide me a log of what right looks like. Saying nothing does not help. I want to be able to talk in games without upsetting every player in every match. Just give me one good log that Riot says "Yup, this is good behavior" and I'm set. I can work from there. Honestly what you're asking is close to impossible to provide since 90% of the cases here are ones that show clear signs of negative behavior and/or verbal abuse as well also. All I can say is if you're dead set on this then just file a Support Ticket asking for it, since you're very unlikely to get a Riot response here (remember that this is primarily a volunteer-run forum after all).
> Honestly what you're asking is close to impossible Is it so hard to look at the hundreds of streams on youtube, transcribe just one of those, and say "Act like this"?.. Really? It's impossible to do this? Because I just said the 3 steps that it takes to help me genuinely reform. Honestly it would maybe take a few minutes to do so. Heck, if you wanted to you can just pencil-whip something together, have Riot look at it and give their ok on it. That's all Im looking for. > Allot of times when people say that they were banned for saying nothing, in actuality they were banned for consistently trolling via gameplay instead. The way Riot judges if something like trolling is occuring is that they look at the amount of reports that are for the same thing and the frequency of the reports submitted for the same thing... So me being the crap player I am, I feed alot. I hear almost every game that Im being reported for being a feeder. That's 1-4 reports every game. If they all say "This guy is trolling and is intentionally feeding" then that's all Riot needs to act on something. They have probably suspicion and reasonable doubt to cast judgement. So my saying nothing will not stop Riot from permabanning me for dying too many times. It's not a "Bad game or two". It's almost every game that's like this. Im garbage, I tried fixing it, I'm called a troll/feeder for trying. > All I can say is if you're dead set on this then just file a Support Ticket asking for it, since you're very unlikely to get a Riot response here I've been asking for this for months now. All they do is copy/paste the same response over and over again and don't even read my tickets. They've made it clear that helping a player reform when all they need is one thing is too much work for them. (the 3 steps provided above is apperantly impossible to do) Im sorry if you were offended by anything I said. Im not trying to offend anyone and odds are you read it in a snarky/sarcastic tone... Im not trying to be offensive/snarky/passive aggresive. Im genuinely confused with the lack of guidance from Riot's part and the general answers I keep getting from people when what I need to do what needs done is simple...
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RedTao

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