: Eternals Feedback Thread: Set 1 Uniques
For Ezreal, instead of number of "long range Qs", which just reinforces the Q only style of play, why not make it an accuracy % of Qs hit? Instead of focusing on a bad playstyle number, focus on accuracy. For Garen, remove that third one. That number is just going to be insane, since he has passive "up" 90% of the time anyways. For Shyvana, how about number of Dragons slain? It's her gimmick afterall. Those are all I can think of off a cursory glance at the doc.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 12
Any specifics about these Aurelion buffs that are coming? he really doesnt need more damage, maybe some mana cost changes to his W for more early game use, or a possible revert of the HP nerf since Timewarp abuse is gone? also, is there any hope of him possibly getting another skin sooner rather than later? a LOT of us that play him were super disappointed with the generic Mecha skin he received, especially now that we're seeing these Coven and Eclipse skin lines. Something original and amazing looking woulda been fantastic, rather than the 100th robot themed skin released
: Another point is, what's wrong with Fizz? As in, in the sense that he was first a bruiser/assassin, with the W that enhanced autos for a while. Then you turned him into a hit and run, full assassin. (right now) Upcoming changes : A weird... hybrid...? It doesn't seem healthy, IMO, to have players change their playstyle so much for a character.
> [{quoted}](name=Forsyte Vann,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=huEn04VG,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2018-06-20T19:54:48.033+0000) > > Another point is, what's wrong with Fizz? As in, in the sense that he was first a bruiser/assassin, with the W that enhanced autos for a while. Fizz was never intended to be a Bruiser/Assassin hybrid, *that* is the issue. When champions that are meant to single out, and kill a target, can also build to brawl and survive in a fight for a bit while still performing that same function, there has historically been issues. Fizz is meant to be this slippery, hard to lock down character that wants to engage a fight on his terms with Shark, swoop in during the chaos, and eliminate his target. He has the tools for this. When his W functioned off of %MissingHP, he was no longer an assassin. He became a diving bruiser that had innate advantages over almost every other bruiser (mobility, ghost-passive, strong abilities AND AA trading, invulnerability, engage), while sacrificing very little of his assassin side.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 16
Watching Shiphtur and a couple other mids, and I've been seeing a LOT of smite on the laners with the sole purpose of setting back junglers even harder. The changes to Runic Echoes made it much more attractive to laners, while hurting AP junglers more than it helped, it seems. Any thoughts on this? As it stands, it's pretty unfun to load into a game as Jungle, see 2+ smites on the enemy team, and know that I have next to no response to this. I can't contest Scuttle anymore, I'm almost guaranteed to lose one of my camps to the extra smite, and once I fall behind in XP, there's almost no recovery when the enemy has a complete stranglehold on the big XP sources.
: PBE Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.10
So, *what exactly is going on with Azir*. When he got his rework that kept the Shuffle and gutted his ranges, we were told that the playerbase was pretty evenly split on whether he should be long range DPS, without the shuffle, and short range with it. Obviously, the short range just didn't work (*not really suprised, giving a hyper-scaling carry play making tools usually never works*). And, now instead of reverting to pre-rework (like LB, Rengar, Kog'Maw), he's instead being heavily nerfed in today's update and we were told that he's just going to be left like this. Why? Why is one of my faorite champions to play, with one of my absolute favorite thematics (Emperor commanding his soldiers), being left like this, instead of at least reverting back to a state where he was strong, and then just trim power away? Why not give him one last rework test for the other 50% of us that hate the Shuffle mechanic and just want to play our chess games to try and carry? At this point, seeing the changes on the PBE, I don't even want to bother trying to play him anymore. It feels like there's no point.
: Tough Design Decisions made for Azir in 7.19
Having gotten to play Azir a LOT on the PBE, I have to say: The changes feel absolutely miserable for someone that played Azir for his range and safety, and not for the bugged gimmick that was the Shurima Shuffle. The ranges, coupled with the severe nerf to his AoE damage, makes his laning phase feels bad, and it only gets worse with so many champions able to dive onto him and *keep diving onto him* now that he's lost the multi-knockback. Like, what is Azir supposed to build now? We're battle-mage ranges, so we need to be tanky, but all of our damage is AA based, so we can't really skip out on Nashors (which still isn't allowed to apply its passive? We know you can reduce effectiveness thanks to Urgot's W), and without a Rylais, we're both kited AND chased down with ease. Azir definitely has counterplay, but, now he honestly just feels like a weaker Cass to me. I'm just leaving myself out there, waiting for an assassin to jump on me, so I can go a flash-distance away by burning all 3 of my basic spells. If I wanted to be a short ranged control/DPS mage, I'd just play Cass. Hell, I'd be better off just playing Orianna. The things that made Azir so unique (long range DPS based off of zones) are gone, in favor of a poor man's Lee Sin. If this rework HAS to stick, can we at least get a dev-blog showing us what you actually tried to try and keep a long range, less-safe Azir? Because, as it is right now, all I personally feel like is that the team behind updating him shortened ranges, saw it worked, and just rolled with it, instead of even attempting to keep range and cut out his unneeded burst.
AonDor (NA)
: I agree, however. His pin is almost exactly like Poppy's, but Poppy doesn't create a wall. This does mean Ornn is a better fighter in close spaces, but since if he were, say, in the middle of mid lane, he would do nothing if not for his wall. It gives him a way to do something in open areas, and not completely disable one of his abilities. On Poppy this is not a problem, her e is extremely (kinda) long ranged, but Ornn's dash is shorter. To wind this up, I think people need to use his Q less as his only wall, and instead realize there are other walls around. Therefore, I think his Q has a good summon time. There are really cool ways to play around it. Like, summon it a bit to their left, making them not want to cross it and instead move the other way, but towards a wall. Then, you just ignore your pillar and use the wall.
The thoughts are alright, but it looks like Riot agreed with me and the other payers, since they buffed the time before the wall spawns. I do agree that it shouldn't be the main focus of his combo, but, as it was, the Q just took too long to pop before you could do anything with it, especially since his E IS such a short ranged dash.
Meddler (NA)
: We've been moving away from putting so many VO lines on taunts for precisely the reasons you outline there, doing things like on kill lines with Kled instead. When audio designer bandwidth permits we'll go and move some of those older lines hooked up to taunts to automatic triggers. We'll certainly keep an eye out for chances to get work done when bringing voice actors back in for other stuff anyway.
I'm a little late to the party, but, do you think you could look into having some of Azir's lines from Ascension pulled over into his normal quote pool? He has SO MANY great lines for that mode, but we never get to hear them because he's just terrible to play there. With his mini-rework coming out soon, it'd be the perfect time to add them in. Also, if Azir ends up just becoming another low range DPS mage ala Cass/Ryze, is there any hope of maybe *possibly* looking into adjusting the rework the other direction? I still feel like a long range, position AND zone heavy DPS mage can work and be balanced, without feeling like a "flatter" playstyle. It already feels like I'm losing another champion I like to play to a rework as is.
4th3t0s (NA)
: 1 week has barely even passed since the nerfs, calm your tits Edit: Also, quit ignoring the meta having shifted favorably for her. Like it's been said before, she doesn't win games, she stops you from losing. ADC's are currently overtuned, items like censer are overloaded, and she REQUIRES a competent ADC to give her any chance for her to help snowball. She's literally the only champion pigeonholed into support who does next to nil damage and relies EXCLUSIVELY on peeling for her team; if her team is shit, she's useless.
> if her team is shit, she's useless This is the one thing that I wish people would get through their heads. I play a lot of Janna, and, yes, she is braindead simple to play at a basic level. There's no real special mechanics to master, besides leading tornadoes and learning how to do the isolation combo. She's incredibly one-dimensional, and VERY good at what she does: Protecting her team from the enemy, not themselves. Janna can stop a play dead in its tracks, but she can't force a team to win a game. I can stop that Rengar from blowing up my ADC, but I can't make my ADC win a fight outright like a Thresh, Braum, or Leona can. I enable my teams to have a chance at the fights, but I can't stop them from making shitty decisions. I can save your ass, but I can't make plays. Janna's winrate is so stupid right now *because of the meta we're in*. Protect the ADC, with 2-3 tank teams? This is a Janna's dream. A beefy, slow moving frontline with easy to peel threats to my main sources of damage make my job 100x easier. The moment that the Tank/Protect the ADC meta is gone, Janna's winrate will dip back down to her usual place, without the meta and items inflating it. I mean, after all this time, before Tanks and Protect the ADC became the focus of gameplay, she wasn't obscenely broken. She was just good at peeling.
: i think making the pillar come up quicker would be nice..feels to long to me
^ This. I'm loving how Ornn plays thus far, but the delay before the Q forms makes his reliability go right into the gutter for me. I get that he's supposed to rely on a CC-Heavy team to get of perfect combos, and I like that. It's the same idea behind Yasuo and his ulti. But at least Yasuo can still reliably proc the combo solo, while Ornn is hoping people forget he summons a pillar.
Poske (EUNE)
: Both directions are bad imo Whats the point of soldiers aaing if they dont come with benefits? I guess they pierce and without shurima shuffle azir isnt azir
> without shurima shuffle azir isnt lee sin Fixed that. Azir was never about the Shuffle, it was an unintended interaction between his abilities that Riot decided not to patch out, like Riven's wall-hopping and animation canceling. And it's proved to be a big part of what makes his real identity of long range DPS mage unbalanceable.
Meddler (NA)
: Part of the concern is that leaving Azir's range intact doesn't arguably means he still doesn't have weakness/counterplay. He'll still stab people at long ranges in lane, takes less risk if he's not sometimes going in with E and has even more reason to save other tools for self peel. Cutting his ranges down by contrast gives him a risk profile closer to those of other sustained mages and marksmen, putting more emphasis on his positioning in some respects, with E as a windowed tool to go in or out. As said though we're also still testing this approach, particularly whether it does or doesn't go far enough in improving the playing against Azir experience.
Azir was one of my favorite champions to play for a rather long time, and to hear that the current changes are pushing him to a shorter range saddens me greatly. I was playing Azir to be an Emperor, commanding soldiers from a distance, being weak to being jumped on, but reigning hell from my zones of influence. If I wanted to play a short ranged, sustained DPS mage, I'd just play Ryze, Cass, or, hell, AP Yasuo. Make Azir weak to being jumped on, with outplay tools to survive and escape to his ideal positions, instead of just making him yet another short ranged DPS caster. Please. I don't want to lose another champion I love to play to a rework.
: Assassin Roster Update - Rengar Direction
Please, for the love of god, whatever you do to Rengar, make how he functions *fair*. Right now, when he gets ahead, he's just running in with no way to actively stop him, and popping someone, but then gains even more MS AND passively generates the resource he needs to fight or run away. It feels terrible when someone on the team has to sacrifice an ENTIRE item slot for a pink ward, to have even an iota of a chance to stop him, only to watch the AD/AP/Supp get blown up and him just walk away at hypersonic speeds.
: Well, last week when I asked Meddler about if Soraka would receive any compensation buffs, he said she likely would starting with Wish removing Grievous Wounds again, and going from there if she needs any more. I still think Wish should remove Grievous Wounds, and make targets immune to it for 5~ seconds.
> make targets immune to it for 5~ seconds I'd prefer being able to actually kill that Mundo or Swain, thank you very much. It's bad enough that current GW just makes it bareable.
: Yo Yousosmart! Star Guardian is absolutely a line that we want to explore further, skins team itself is comprised of a ton of Magical Girl super fans! We definitely want to make more SG skins in the future (TBD), so keep your eyes peeled for cuteness! :3 As far as our data goes players lovvvvveddddd her, like off the charts positive player response. lol **Question for the thread: **What other champions, aside from Lux, would make great Star Guardians?
I'm still in full support of Star Guardian Karthus. You kill two birds with one stone by making it, finally giving Karthus that "Pretty Princess Karthus" skin we've all been waiting on, and give him a new skin that wasn't for a team. His spells also lend themselves to bright and sparkly perticles as well. He'd definitely need a new voiceover, though, as all that talk of death and doom really doesn't suit a Star Guardian.
: Can the debuff have some sort of a per target static cooldown of idk. 1 or 2 minutes. its would still be annoying to deal with if she spammed it in lane. basically a free tower since you can't fight her or be close to her with tentacles spawning.
How about you, I don't know, not get grabbed? The E is very telegraphed, blocked by minions, and now only has a ~15s duration.
: How player behavior penalties affect Hextech Crafting
I know this is off-topic, but can we please get some word on Key Fragment rates and why they're so unbelieveably low? I'm on my 4th key, with 3 chests still in reserve. I have 2 fragments, and, even playing in 4 and 5 man premades, with wins, I haven't gotten my third fragment. It's been days now, and, if this is just for my 4th chest this month, it's not worth even trying anymore. I know it was supposed to get more difficult to unlock fragmants, but, this? This is ridiculous. I'm stockpiling chests, winning, and not being able to open them. Just some idea of standard drop rates, or when the rate resets, or how many keys we're expected to average a month, would be nice. As of right now, I feel terrible, not being able to open the chests that I worked for, without having to resort to spending RP for a key.
: Honestly if you own all the champions I don't see why champion shards even drop. Why not reward the players who have spent a lot of time and/or money on the game by having only skin shards drop for them?
Because that is the obvious, logical route to take. And everyone knows that Riot cannot be obvious, nor logical.
: Patience is a virtue, though there are times where I think even the strongest willed may clench their teeth on these boards. I think their secret is to leave and grab a bowl of icecream before replying.
Or they just leave and stop addressing questions and concerns. Check any and all of the Mid Year Mage Update pages.
Jimmyx24 (NA)
: They already stated that that method was only bring tested on the PBE and will most likely not be making it to live BECAUSE of the RNG factor
Can you show me a source for that, because my most up-to-date information is from yesterday, when I asked RiotBuboBubo if there had been any changes to the "Shards for Mastery". [Here's the posts, for reference](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4bge14/is_it_worth_paying_rp_for_hextech_chests/d197jja)
: The champion complaint is totally legit. We have a solution in the works and are going to add alternative uses for champion shards and/or blue essence in the future.
I just hope Riot releases their solution faster than "Soon^tm", because having opened 3 of my 4 chests so far, and having gotten nothing but Champion Shards while owning every champion is quite possibly the worst feeling I've ever had. It's to the point where I dont even care if I get that S on a champion, or earn a chest anymore. What's the point? I have to grind out key fragments for something that I can't even use. And I'll probably feel even worse about getting Champion Shards if Riot goes through with the whole "Use Shards to get Mastery 6 & 7 unlocked" route. Then, I'm not only just getting useless content unlocked, but now I have to hope that the Champion is one that I enjoy playing, or hold onto 3 of them to unlock my favorite champion's higher tiers. Why would a rating system, that shows dedication and potential knowledge of a champion, even be locked away behind RNG anyway? It makes no sense to have to pray to RNGesus, or spend RP to play the lottery, just to show you have a higher Mastery of a champion.
: Every time I hear someone talk about Riot like they don't have a clue, I think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evjn7_tMRd4
To be completely fair, Riot has also decided Kha'Zix wasn't allowed to actually play the game for so long that I honestly forgot that I used to *main him*. Just because a couple of Reddit and the community's reactions to nerfs are blown out of proportion doesn't mean that a lot of the time they aren't completely correct. Everyone said Kha'Zix would be gutted, and, here we are, STILL trying to recover from it. We knew Evelynn's nerfs would make her a sub-par pick at all times, and, whaddya know? We fucking told Riot that changing Kog'maw's attackspeed to be on W, the ability he maxes first, would absolutely break him. It had to be removed the very next patch.
: Even me, I started to play league of legends when cass was already reworked and I felt like she had something wrong. When I looked at her old Champion Spotlight I was like "Wow this is totally what she should look like! Why is she like this now? And then I learned about her rework and everything that was wrong about it and how people used to love her so much,
Yup. It was even worse when we were in the middle of the rework, and Riot had tried their whole "clarity" approach, after the debacle that was deleting Trundle and replacing him with an Ice Troll, and basically rewriting Karma. This was at the same time that Riot decided Skarner's slow was too powerful, too oppressive, to exist, because it provided little counterplay, ignoring the fact that he not only had to actually reach a target, but he actually had very little in ways of damage and required that slow to even function. No other champion, then or now, gave the same feeling of raw control and power that the old Cassiopeia had. No other champion could single out an area that you just simply weren't allowed to be, and then either herd you twards it or force you to back off. Her damage was slow, over time, and her laning was far too strong. But that was no reason to latch onto the single most boring part of her kit, suddenly decide that everything she had been doing up to that point was wrong and not her identity, and change her. Here we are now, having to backtrack a rework that was nearly universally disliked, and we're still heading in a direction that says "Press E to Win". What's the point? Why remove this synergy that Cassiopeia had with Rylais and Liandries to melt anyone that crossed her path? Why decide that zone control that didn't rely on static objects was suddenly completely barred from the game? WHY MAKE A GORGON/SNAKE MAGE USE POISON IF SHE ISN'T GOING TO BE A POISON MAGE?
: and yet, the comment that makes the more sense on this thread remains unanswered.
It's because Riot has absolutely nothing to gain by addressing what I've said anymore. Why bother replying when you've been called out for actions that you yourself have admitted to doing, and still do, and try to defend yourself? I've already pretty much given up hope that Cass will go back to her zone control, damage over time aspects. Stashu killed that dream over a year ago, and it's clear Riot won't let it come back. Too obvious, after all. Just like Storm Dragon vs Cosmic Space Dragon, or the obvious Phoenix Anivia skin.
: If you do not trust them at all, you cannot trust them to not rig the test during your "1-2 cycles of purely one-role"... If really you can't believe them, you have absolutely no way to be convinced in any shape or form.
No, I probably won't trust them there either. After all, Lyte managed to somehow claim that integrated voice chat would be bad for League, and only promote toxicity, when the playerbase can't even figure out that we have /mute for a reason. But I will believe personal experience, and what I can see from high-elo streamers. I could see the timers for myself, experience the wait on my own. I could see if Meteos and scarra, Jensen and Bjergsen experience abnormally higher or lower queue times. I could figure out my own opinion on it, without needing to bring myself to trust a company that has done a lot to destroy the trust I had. Hell, just the idea that they would even give this experiment a shot would already restore a bit of my faith. It would at least show they're *trying*.
: FWIW I have been tilting enemy teams by telling then we were premade for ages when reality was we weren't. I'm sure I wasn't alone, so it isn't always the people whining about premades who were lying XD. New club system makes my good old tilt strategy useless :/
I've seen this done before, and it's pretty obvious when a group isn't actually all together, coordinating in calls and such. I just think it's pretty funny that I would get downvoted to oblivion for calling someone out on their bullshit claims of "5 randoms against a 5-man premade". The actual odds of facing that are so incredibly low that anyone that says it can reliably be called a liar.
Xonra (NA)
: Which is funny because when I queue up for mid and top, I get top about 90% of the time. No really, it is usually 1 in 10 games. Also if people got their roles every game, it would be good. Problem is, there is no incentive to pick up say, support, and the current terrible matchmaking and position choosing and pushed even more potential supports away from the role. The fact is, there is no reason to queue at all for support unless you want to become a support main, because you likely won't get anything else (I never get anything else, ever, and have yet to ever get anything else if I put support or fill. Not one single time).
I've taken to maining Support for two reasons: First, I can help to at least lessen the chances of my botlane shitting the bed uncontrollably, letting the enemy bot go out of control, but taking over the Support role. From there, I can transition to peeling and protecting whomever it is that is most likely to carry and win the fights for us. Second, it's the only role I can *reliably* get when I queue up. I used to be a Mid/Jungle main. I got mid maybe 4 times, total, this season, and Jungling just wasn't worth it with how little I could do with my preferred champions when the enemy duo/3-stack could pressure my own jungle.
: You really shouldn't speak in such extremes. For one, I am a Mid main that queues up as Mid/Top and get Mid 75% on average I believe. I know several people in this same situation. I will point out the issue I used to have however. That is that I used to queue up as Mid/Fill and generally within 2-3 seconds get locked in as Support. I don't mind really, but it shouldn't have thrown away my main preference so soon, maybe if I haven't been matched in 30 seconds then throw me into the secondary. Seems they are working on that though. Also, yes, It seems that Solo queue is indeed gone for a while, but not off the radar. I for one am glad it is still gone and the toxicity it took with it. Don't get me wrong... it's still there, but not nearly as bad. There used to be instant toxicity from players all arguing over which lane they wanted and now that is gone. 9/10 of the games I have played have either had none of this or actual teamwork developing in the lobby. Food for thought: If everyone only ever got their primary role then the queue times would be outlandish for every rank on every server. You have to pick one. Super long queues and single role queue or Multi role queues with shorter times with a decent chance you won't get primary role. EDIT: Decent = ~25-30%
>Food for thought: If everyone only ever got their primary role then the queue times would be outlandish for every rank on every server. You have to pick one. Super long queues and single role queue or Multi role queues with shorter times with a decent chance you won't get primary role. Counterpoint: Where is the data that queue times would, in fact, be so absurdly long that we will never find a role? Team Builder had the issues of no drafting phase, and a team captain gave final word on what the team comp would be, which I personally couldn't stand, and led to me trying my damndest to stay away from it. I propose Riot give us 1-2 Patch Cycles of purely one-role Dynamic Queue. Let us see, in cold, hard data, that queue times would, in fact, become outlandish and completely unsustainable for League. No "our data shows..." arguments, but the plain data from the queues. Let us *experience* what sort of queue times we would be expecting. Let us know, without a doubt, that a One-Role Dynamic Queue is just impossible to use, and that Riot in all their wisdom and kindness, have been right all along and had just been trying to save us from ourselves. I do not trust Riot, in any way, shape, or form. They have lied to us, skewed results, twisted words, and blatantly ignored feedback far too many times for me to trust them. That's why I sincerely think that Riot are bullshitting us in picking a single role to queue up with, and will continue to call it bullshit until we have hard data and facts to go off of.
: Well, I basically trust Riot to do good for the game, and I've no problem with Dynamic Queue, so I don't care if SoloQ is canceled or not. That being said, I must admit, that straight from the first announcement, I had my doubts about the fact that SoloQ would come out. And even if I don't care about SoloQ, I care about being told the truth. I don't like lies for the "greater good". You're going too far with your stuff about firing though... -_-
Mecha Kha'Zix. When Kha'Zix was released, his skin was priced at 1350. This doesn't sound bad, until you realize that this was the first time, EVER, that a skin had been priced at 1350. Riot Hippalus told us, directly, that Mecha Kha'Zix would be a one-off, rare event, where the launch skin for a champion was at Legendary quality, and that 1350 would not become a regular, common price point for the players. Shortly after, we were presented the Price Adjustment Plan, where, SURPRISE, 1350 became a new, standard price point for Riot to use, and many skins had their prices adjusted. Riot Moved several skins up to 1350, reduced a couple of Legendaries to 1350 (Lion Dance Kog'Maw and Piltover Customs Blitzcrank) and didn't change any others. They *tried* to change the permanently discounted Surprise Party Fiddlesticks to 1350 as well, but only stopped after MASSIVE player outcry. Many of the price adjustments also made very little sense. Armor of the Fifth Age Taric is still 975, when it is essentially just a recolor without a cape, and Magnificent Twisted Fate, which has absolutely nothing unique to it, is STILL 1820. Piltover Customs Blitz and Lion Dance Kog both had unique changes to them, but weren't worth being Legendaries, yet Magnificent TF is STILL overpriced beyond reason. If you weren't here for that, then I can understand. But ANYONE that was playing League at the time Kha'Zix was released should have VERY little trust in Riot and what they say and do. Yes, Riot have made a great and enjoyable game. Yes, they make mostly quality content, and release these nice events. But they will straight-up LIE to us, right to our faces, and then act like we are the ones in the wrong when we call Riot out on it. It wasn't even the first, nor is it the last, stunt that Riot has pulled. Icons for IP, the Replay System (which has been in the "works" since at least Season 1), updated client (only took 6 seasons), and we stil don't have many things solved.
: New Champ Select Update
Okay, so, what I took away from this is: * Solo-queue ain't happening, play Dynamic or go back to Normals * People talking about being 5 randoms against 5-stacks are actual liars * People aren't happy they aren't getting their role, which has led to gaming the sytem, which has, in-turn, made it harder to get certain roles That the basics, right? Also, nobody has told me that Match Quality has gotten better. Every game I've been in this past week has been pure snowballing stomps from either side. Guess those guys didn't get the memo as well. Glad to know pretty much nothing has change, just QoL and more Mid mains never getting to play Mid.
Meddler (NA)
: We've got some concerns about both Devourer and Guinsoo's and are looking at some possible adjustments to both of them, targeting game health and the play patterns they create, not just their raw numbers. If those do work out they'll still be a few patches out at a guess though, hence the recent nerf to Devourer as a shorter term adjustment. Those two items likely needing some work doesn't mean champions who use them are necessarily balanced though. We're nerfing Shyv and Yi because we feel that they're too strong in general. Tank Yi in particular isn't a playstyle we feels appropriate unless he's having to take a significant damage hit for it, given it removes one of his biggest intended weaknesses.
>We're nerfing Shyv and Yi because we feel that they're too strong in general Then does this mean that, if Shyvana's winrate should tank dramatically, would Riot actually revert some of the nerfs? This *is* an Olaf situation, after all. You're hitting her damage, her utility, and her items, all at once. If anything in that trio happened to have been the main problem, the rest is just collateral. And with the huge differrence between Top and Jungle Shyvana's winrates, it should be pretty easy to see where one of the real problems actually is.
Meddler (NA)
: Kalista's too strong. For a champion who's effectiveness is intended to be interwoven more than usual with a team mate's she's also pretty self sufficient. We're exploring ways to both tighten the Oathsworn connection and remove some power as a result.
I don't play much Kalista, and, when I do, I never have a support that I can coordinate with. The always want to do their own thing, I rarely get to use my W passive, and Ulting is more of a gamble as to whether they'll realize I want to fight, or this is time to back off. With this change, I'll be even more reliant on the binding. So, I have to ask: Has there been any thoughts as to allowing Kalista to change bindings over the course of the game now? Forcing her to rely on someone, that may or may not even want to help you, is already a huge nerf. Why not allow Kalista to change who she is bound to, so she can change how and with who she fights with? Put a large cooldown on swapping (10 minutes, maybe?), and you prevent her from just changing right before every fight just because her old bind was dead.
: > When I think of Cassiopeia, I think of the Medusa that is wittling you down, denying you areas to go to, and has the expected high-moment of stopping you in your tracks for trying to face her. > I don't think of someone fishing for a poison tag, to then throw some random, snake-themed projectiles at me whose only counterplay is literally "don't get hit by anything else first". That's totally understandable. However, this is all contingent upon your expectation that Cassiopeia be more like a Medusa. I agree that Medusa and Twin Fang spam don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, and that if we were to create Cassiopeia from scratch today, Twin Fang might not be part of the equation. That said, we're trying to refine a character that utilizes her existing sources of power, one of which is Twin Fang, into something that is more balanced (thematically speaking, not power). Twin Fang has undeniably always been one of Cassiopeia's threats, so we don't want to get rid of that. We want to balance things out so that it's not playing such a disproportionately high role in that power distribution. > Kinda funny how you want to talk about "alienating players" when reworks and updates in the past had no qualms about completely changing a character. Not sure there's a point to a comment like this, as I'm sure the desired outcome isn't that we should just change characters without regard to identity.
>That's totally understandable. However, this is all contingent upon your expectation that Cassiopeia be more like a Medusa. I agree that Medusa and Twin Fang spam don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, and that if we were to create Cassiopeia from scratch today, Twin Fang might not be part of the equation. That said, we're trying to refine a character that utilizes her existing sources of power, one of which is Twin Fang, into something that is more balanced (thematically speaking, not power). Twin Fang has undeniably always been one of Cassiopeia's threats, so we don't want to get rid of that. We want to balance things out so that it's not playing such a disproportionately high role in that power distribution. I used the Medusa comparison because, at the end of the day, Cassiopeia is clearly based on Medusa and the Gorgons. Even without her appearance, she's still a champion that is utilizing poisons in half her kit, a third AoE spell designed for lockdown, and a single high-damaging spell tied to a mechanic involving Poisons. If you were really trying to balance Cassiopeia *thematically*, then Poisons and her snake motif should be what's catching your eye, not Twin Fang. And, you know what? I **can** deny that Twin Fang has always been on of Cassiopeia's threats, because her pre-rework incarnation, the version that I loved to play, had it as a filler-spell. Her main threat was how much damage she could do in an area, over time, witht he proper team to lockdown and slow the enemies. She wasn't about tagging someone then bursting them down with her E. The E was there just to give her something to do while she waited for her Q to come back, give her some semblance of 1v1 potential, and to maintain her old Deadly Cadence passive. Her original state had her kit spread into her Q and W doing most of her damage, with E tacked on. Her rework, which was very poorly recieved by the people that actually played her, turned her into a 1v1/single-target champion first and foremost, when the rest of her kit still screams AoE/teamfight mage. >Not sure there's a point to a comment like this, as I'm sure the desired outcome isn't that we should just change characters without regard to identity. The point of this comment is that, while you're claiming that you don't want to "alienate the players that already enjoy the champion", any time there's big backlash towards a dramatic shift in a champion, it's ignored. Cass was reworked away from a thematic that suited her, and still suits her, which alienated a LOT of players from her. Trundle lost his entire identity years ago. Sion retains a SINGLE TRAIT from his original kit, and nothing of his original playstyle. I'm seriously not trying to be rude, I just feel it has to be said. Anytime there's a huge change for a champion, that players react negatively to, it's simply pushed aside. Anytime input is asked for, it's brushed aside, and ignored, in favor of the ideas that are already in the reworking Rioters head. This happened with Cass' original rework, and, frankly, I'm still salty about that. I, and a lot of other Cassiopeia players, lost a champion that we loved to play, in favor of Ryze 1.5, and it feels terrible.
: I'd definitely say it's still Malz but whatever. You seem to think what you want from cass is more legitimate than other fans even though the version of cass you want has never existed
Malz is a burst-over-time champion. It's weird, but his ideal scenarios are about 1-rotating you, not landing successive DoTs and letting you burn out. And Cass was ORIGINALLY a DoT mage that used her poisons primarily. It was the original, so it most definitely existed. In fact, the current version of her, was something that the long-time Cass players like myself hated. She went from a complex, but simple, character, to "Land Poison, Spam E".
: > [{quoted}](name=Ren Ex,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=n7lt68uM,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-01T04:58:33.278+0000) > > Then you should probably read up on her history, old builds, and skills first. You've already been chiming in about the Poison v Twin Fang discussion, and you don't even know that this version of Cass that we currently have was pretty much despised by every one of her old players. > > It removed her poison and torment playstyle, in favor of being a knock-off Ryze, and we were ignored for trying to fight against it. > > (Not trying to be rude, I just can't ever find a way to type without being blunt) My understanding of it is that poisons did more damage but she still spammed fangs at you. But the poison damage was oppressive early game
Her poisons were the focus of her kit, and she only threw her E at you towards mid-late game when she actually had AP to back it up. She was a lane bully that zoned with her W, and was trying to land her Qs to let you burn down. She was heavily susceptible to burst and ganks, and her 1v1 potential was all a matter of if she had already wittled them down and if she landed her ultimate. Her base damages were probably tuned a bit high on Q and W, but it was no excuse to throw them aside and make her just an E-bot.
: Sorry that you want this but she's my favorite champion and I love that she's really twitchy. I love twin fangs. I love spammy abilities. I love the state she's currently in. I hope the changes are very minimal. Her ult is fine. If you don't like the champion then don't play the champion.
I'm sorry that you want her to stay this way. Before her rework that turned her into this cheap Ryze, I really enjoyed playing the Cass that was all about slowly burning down enemies with DoTs and ramping up her damage thanks to her old Deadly Cadence passive. She didn't instantly start winning a fight by landing a Q then machine-gunning you down, she worked for what she got. I used to love this champion, then Riot decided, arbitrarily, the Poison-using Mage wasn't allowed to be a Poison-mage, and had to become a knock-off of one of the most annoying champions to fight.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ren Ex,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=n7lt68uM,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-01T04:50:38.116+0000) > > Twin Fangs already ramps the DoT. > > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} Orly I was thinking it doing very little instant damage but instead very high dot damage while you're getting fanged on, idea being the spell feels more poison oriented itself I don't really play cass all about azir here. Just interested
Then you should probably read up on her history, old builds, and skills first. You've already been chiming in about the Poison v Twin Fang discussion, and you don't even know that this version of Cass that we currently have was pretty much despised by every one of her old players. It removed her poison and torment playstyle, in favor of being a knock-off Ryze, and we were ignored for trying to fight against it. (Not trying to be rude, I just can't ever find a way to type without being blunt)
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=n7lt68uM,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-01T04:37:09.233+0000) > > Like the kind that might kill you at half health late-game. > > I'm not sure exactly what it should look like, but I do agree her poison damage should feel powerful. Have you thought about making twin fangs amp up dot damage on a target for a second or even just do a very short dot to give it cass more of a melting feeling while still spamming fangs? Possibly an over complicated suggestion just for getting a new feel out of doing the same thing
Twin Fangs already ramps the DoT. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Hellioning,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=n7lt68uM,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-01T04:34:58.776+0000) > > Malz' big success case is QEWR. Sure, all of his abilities do damage over time, but the best way to use them is to have them all go off at once. That's not really a DoT mage, too me. > > And yes, I absolutely think that! And I'm sure that you think your vision is more legitimate than mine. That's generally how opinions work. Twin fangs spam was always part of her pattern though. If you don't like that spell you might as well give up on cassiopeia
Except every time, before this specific update, whenever the Rioter working on Cass' adjustments talked about twin Fangs, they described it as a "downtime spell", meant to be something she does while waiting on CDs. Her last rework was the first time her E was actually made a focus of her kit, and it promptly alienated most of the people that played her at the time. And, thanks to her binary Poison>Kill playstyle, she's always either far too powerful, or way too weak.
: > I'm not sure why you think Twin Fangs is a fun and interesting spell, or that you think it's appropriate for Cass' kit to be twitchy and mechanics intensive. Nowhere did I say that Twin Fang is fun and interesting. I did say that it is core to Cassiopeia, which I do believe is true. > I want a DoT champion, not an arthritis-inducing champion. You're welcome to play any of the lower intensity champions in the game then, but it's not fair for us to turn Cassiopeia, who has always been higher intensity, into something else because it didn't match some people's original expectations for her. Changes like that run the risk of completely alienating players that already enjoy the champion. > And her ult still sucks. Very subjective. Even more constructive.
>Nowhere did I say that Twin Fang is fun and interesting. I did say that it is core to Cassiopeia, which I do believe is true. I beg to differ. When I think of Cassiopeia, I think of the Medusa that is wittling you down, denying you areas to go to, and has the expected high-moment of stopping you in your tracks for trying to face her. I don't think of someone fishing for a poison tag, to then throw some random, snake-themed projectiles at me whose only counterplay is literally "don't get hit by anything else first". There's nothing "core" about Twin Fangs. Every single rework and post about it as always said that Twin Fangs was designed as a "downtime spell", something for her to do while her poisons were on CD. There's nothing core about a filler spell. >You're welcome to play any of the lower intensity champions in the game then, but it's not fair for us to turn Cassiopeia, who has always been higher intensity, into something else because it didn't match some people's original expectations for her. Changes like that run the risk of completely alienating players that already enjoy the champion. Just like how Ryze went from being an accessible, simple, one-dimensional character for beginners to learn with to an annoyingly unbalanceable, and skill-intensive machinegun whose best use scenarios rely less on player skill and more on latency/ping? Or how Poppy went from being an assassin, to a tank, the exact opposite of her original playstyle? Or how Sion has nothing of either of his original playstyles (besides HP farm-stack) since rework, and is now much, much more difficult champion to play effectively? Kinda funny how you want to talk about "alienating players" when reworks and updates in the past had no qualms about completely changing a character.
Meddler (NA)
: We're nerfing Devourer because we believe Devourer itself is a problem. It's intended to be a mid game power spike that at present is coming online too quickly and contributing a bit much before it's sated. As a result we're both making it a bit harder to stack and reducing its power when not sated. While Devourer itself hasn't been changed recently players have got significantly better at optimizing collection of stacks, those from Scuttle/Dragon/Rift Herald in particular. We did look at whether we should reduce the number of stacks those monsters granted. We felt strongly though that pulling Devourer junglers into more contested objectives was really valuable though, as a way to offset the low interaction PVE play that farming junglers engage in. Longer term I suspect we may end up making heavier modifications to Devourer too sometime this season. It does some cool things, but the play patterns it promotes and some of the power spikes it creates have been costly to the game at times. It's also an approach that can be extremely dominant in low level play without being functional at all in top tier play. As to the principle of least disruption, certainly, that's a great one to consider. Do need to be careful not to fall into the trap of addressing symptoms rather than causes though, sometimes bigger systemic changes are needed.
If this nerf is going to go through, then can you (Riot) look into at least making the item a decent option for the few ranged junglers that liked to build it before the change to it? As it stands, Kayle, TF, Twitch, and Kindred would all LOVE to build this item from the jungle, but they're punished by the item itself, while the melee champions are the ones abusing it.
Bârd (NA)
: When you say that you want AD Malz to be a decent option, do you mean that in the same way that AP Kog was meant to still be good :/ It's just that major changes tend to remove a lot of builds from viability (Solo lane Soraka, AP Tristana, AP Sion, AP Kog'maw, Lane Nidalee, AP Sejuani, Rivershen, Mal "the rock" fightimus, Gragas mid, Eve mid, AP Taric, et cetera)
To be fair, AP Sion, AP Taric, and Solo Raka were all completely intended to be stopped dead with their changes. AP Sion had no counterplay, and Solo Raka was cancerous beyond all belief.
Traxicus (NA)
: Riven's Q jumps walls, though?
I'm pretty sure that Riven's Third Q jumping walls started as a bug, and Riot decided to keep it, just like her animation cancelling is a bug, but the only thing keeping her decent in the hands of her mains.
: It's the same thing with Warwick and a few other champs. Just be patient, there's only so much work they can do at once. Plus, sometimes they have creative pitfalls to overcome when it comes to keeping an identity without keeping all the crappy mechanics.
> keeping an identity without keeping all the crappy mechanics It's even worse when a huge subset WANT to keep the crappy mechanics. AP Sion with Stun into Shield and Diplomatic Immunity Poppy are the two big offenders for this.
: Actually with the rate of 1350 skins being on sale set at 4 (sometimes 5) a month, I didn't predict the Pool Party skins to go on their regular half price sale till August/September. Riot is at a point where there are more than 52 skins in this tier (65 to be specific), so the 1350 skins will end up on a 15 month rotation provided no new 1350 skins are released.
Only problem is that Riot has a HUGE problem with spreading the love for skins around. I waited almost 2 years for one of my Katarina skins to go on sale, and I still have one more to get. We're more likely to see certain skins more than others. King Tryndamere is a prime example of this.
: To be fair, lee sin doesn't have to have a 50%> win rate to be broken. The design of the champion just feels bad to play against. Even if a lee sin isn't good enough to carry the game, it takes almost no skill to effectively 1v1 with him. He just uses raw mechanical advantage to always have to initiative in the fight. You always feel like you are at the mercy of how mechanically skilled the enemy lee sin is, rather than possibly having the skill to mechanically out play him. To use chess as an analogy, it's like playing with nothing but white tile bishops, but trying to kill an enemy queen. Until the enemy queen makes the mistake, you have literally no way to initiate a winning play. Yes you can try to bait the queen into exposing herself, but if the player is good enough, then you can't expect such a bait to ever work.
I'll need to run the numbers again, but, iirc, Lee Sin has some of the highest total base damage and highest scaling of all AD based champions. I know Wukong has him beat in scaling, but that's purely because of his ultimate. Couple this with the fact that he has 2 gap closers, CC, buffs, shield, sustain, AND is in the second highest movement speed tier baseline, it gets to be pretty ridiculous. Either Lee needs to be forced to build damage to deal damage, or his scalings need to be gutted so that he stops 1-rotating ADCs with just his jungle item at level 11
ACENOX (EUW)
: We need to talk about LEE and win rate
I honestly don't care about winrates, or pick rates, or anything like that. I just know that, as a Jungle main, Lee Sin is fucking bullshit to deal with. He just does everything, way too well, for how forgiving his entire kit actually is. There's no drawback, ever, to playing him. And there really isn't much outplay you can do against him, thanks to just how much fuckery he can pull. I get it, Lee does take time to learn how to play. His fancier combos require some serious coordination, and not everyone can do that. But, come on, he shouldn't be allowed to build Wrriors and a single damage item, and literally 2 shot an ADC/Mid, without even burning all of his spells. Everyone complains about Rengar, but at least he has to build damage to assassinate. Lee just QRQs.
: I think you got the level 1 and 6 values mixed up, but other than that it seems pretty interesting. Honestly, I'm not really sure how minions count towards the isolation bonus regardless
No, the ranges are correct. Kha's Isolation is listed at how close other units can be before Isolation is removed. 500 to 400 is a 100 range increase to his Isolation Threat Range.
Meddler (NA)
: The removal of Brutalizer and Last Whisper do seem to have hit Kha'Zix pretty hard and we've got some buffs planned for the next patch, focused on cases where Kha'Zix isn't quite able to get things to work. Those changes are currently looking like: * Faster attack frame on passive empowered auto attacks (they're currently slower than his normal auto attacks) * Increased explosion radius on W (225 -> 275) * 100 extra range on unevolved E Potential for additional buffs later as well if needed, looking to avoid making too many changes all at once though.
Meddler, I have to ask, have there been any ideas tossed around for Kha'Zix to give his Isolation the Garen treatment? Possibly scaling his Isolation ranges over the course of the game? Have any designers tried Increase the Isolation Radius, but, at each Evolution (6/11/16) giving something to help him back? Could possibly look something like: * Level 1- 500 Isolation Range * Level 6- 400 Isolation Range * Level 11- Structures no longer remove Isolation * Level 16- Minions no longer remove Isolation This would give him gradual increases to his power, at clear break points, that allow him to still fulfill his lategame fantasy as an assassin, while still focusing on his Isolate and kill playstyle. His early game power, where Isolation is much easier to achieve, but his damage is lower, would be relatively unchanged, but would also help to alleviate a lot of the issues of being literally countered by minions. This would aslo play into his theme of "Change and Overcome", by showing how Kha is adapting to better hunt his prey. And, for balancing sake, completing The Hunt is On! would ONLY grant Kha'Zix the fourth evolution point, nothing more.
: well i agree partially. actually i think before trinkets and sightstone were added to the game, it was a fairly decent system except for supports. then sightstone got added and it simply gave support some quality of life bonus. nice! then trinkets got added and i really liked the general concept but the balance of trinkets was simply not good enough and rito didnt bother to focus more than half a patch onto it. but still a good system! now wards got removed and trinkets got changed and i really must say, its a kick in the nuts. the balance of trinkets is non-existant (yellow sucks, sweeping lense sucks, sourround-sweeper and scrying orb are too strong) and if you plan on changing your trinket, you simply can never place more than one ward (which is a pink). thats just very painful. last season as a jungler, i got red trinket most of the time after first or second back and just kept buying tons of wards. on freelo.gg you get a tier rating (bronze-challenger) based on how good you do in a certain aspect of the game, i.e. warding. i always had challenger warding because i simply buy alot of wards, put them down (also important) and even in good spots at good times. right now, yellow trinket is way too useless especially early on and the blue one is just broken. litter the entire map with wards, its absurd. the power of pink-wards was that if they dont get destroyed, they stay forever. so you had to choose a location that you want to keep control of and put down your pink. now you can just spam blue wards and the only difference of them is that they dont spot evelyn. i agree, sightstone should be removed and there should be another system which involves the entire team. sadly i cant think of one off the top of my head.
> if you plan on changing your trinket, you simply can never place more than one ward (which is a pink) This right here is my sole reason for absolutely fucking HATING the ward changes this season. As a midlane/jungle main, I spend a LOT of time roaming. I want to have sweeper, so I don't waste my time roaming due to a ward being in the way. As a jungler, I have to cmmmit early to which smite I'll be using all game, which, outside of Lee and Jax, and possibly Eve, should be blue smite as a go-to. This means that, to ward, I have to sacrifice my sweeper, and now risk being spotted by wards while setting up a fun bush or roaming, or I have to hope to god that the others on my team understand vision is important. And, looking through my Match History on the website, I can safely say nobody but me, the support, and the enemy support ever give more than two fucks about warding. These trinket changes didn't even do much to improve vision. Yellow wards just aren't strong enough to compete with the cheap and spammable blues, base red sweeper is absolutely fucking useless, even though giving it true sight would make it the perfect counter to Vayne and the other stealthy bastards, and still nobody is warding. At least when I could buy green wards I could keep myself safe, and potentially deny vision against the enemy for my jungler/laners. Now? Good fucking luck, taking a Sweeper into lane is telling them to please gank, I have no safety vision.
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Ren Ex

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