Numb3rs (NA)
: ONLY 2 things need to be done to make this season not shit.
I feel like they should add more keystones, honestly. Lowering damage in masteries and buffing towers would be great, but just diversifying keystones to the point where you ACTUALLY have a choice for most champs, instead of one-size-fits all would be great. They've said if they can get it to 5 keystones per tree it'd likely be balanced, but they don't wanna put in the effort for that compared to other things, I guess.
: That's why i ban him every single game.
Because this is definitely a Yasuo only issue. I mean, someone who does this would probably just do it worse if you int ban them out of their champ with no reason other than 'I don't want you to play this because you'll probably feed'
: Only on release? We had to deal with tank Ekko for MONTHS, many patches went buy before they put that beast down.
I mentioned the tank build immediately after that. > has only been a problem when overtuned on release (Most champs get that or undertuned anyhow) and when the tank build was realized, and eventually nerfed. And even then, the tank build was in large part to itemization at the time, where a LOT of champs had abuse of tank items, it just helped Ekko out the most. AP builds, as said, have always been balanced bar release. Yes we had to deal with it for a while, but there was a lot of bullshit for a while during that meta, and other metas in the past. It got nerfed, the kit's got weaknesses (AP always did ofc) that make it fair even with tank builds, and that's really it.
MLDzXnRRR (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reposer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ohl6vx3n,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2017-01-18T07:19:31.891+0000) > > Said this above, but Ekko hasn't been a problem champ outside of the tank abuse, which was in large part to itemization favoring that change. But with a very slight retuning, AP Ekko is still healthy, and has, barring release number imbalance, always been healthy. He does a lot, but it all has a trade-off. > > Something such as Ekko v Akali in terms of kit is actually something that favors Ekko in health, realistically. Akali is a 'kill or do nothing' champion that, as Duke says, is terrible to balance because it's almost always going to be under/overpowered, since all they can do for the champ itself is generally adjust TTK one way or the other. > > Ekko can be balanced around having weaker stuns, weaker shields, lower dis-engage speed (Via Passive), less safety on ult (Heal, CD, etc) or of course, lower damage, which is generally what they try to keep on him, given that his kit is generally 'unreliable' compared to most assassins (kit-wise, balancing is a bitch for a lot of them right now). His kit is still better as a bruiser. Now he is feast or famine like the other assasins. If he isn't fed, he is useless compared to any ranged mage.
I mean, compared to other assassins, he still brings useful stuff to a team, with his stun and slows, and he can make a great aggro-target, as long as he can ult in time. It's pretty hard to get behind if you don't aggro (Assuming your laner or another laner isn't too fed to escape in any way) because of the kits safety, and at worst, aside from building bruiser/tank, you can help delay to get your build in time to ramp up, and with the powerspikes you have available to you, it's not super difficult to get back in the game as long as the enemy team doesn't get fed too hard. That being said, there is a feast/famine pattern with him, but it is better than that of most other assassins. Lately a {{item:3092}} build has cropped up which enables him to stay in the game, even without getting ahead, but I've yet to use the build myself, so I'm not certain of its strengths firsthand.
: Except Ekko is a HORRIBLE example because he's what happens when you put too much in a kit. You need to have a balance.
Said this above, but Ekko hasn't been a problem champ outside of the tank abuse, which was in large part to itemization favoring that change. But with a very slight retuning, AP Ekko is still healthy, and has, barring release number imbalance, always been healthy. He does a lot, but it all has a trade-off. Something such as Ekko v Akali in terms of kit is actually something that favors Ekko in health, realistically. Akali is a 'kill or do nothing' champion that, as Duke says, is terrible to balance because it's almost always going to be under/overpowered, since all they can do for the champ itself is generally adjust TTK one way or the other. Ekko can be balanced around having weaker stuns, weaker shields, lower dis-engage speed (Via Passive), less safety on ult (Heal, CD, etc) or of course, lower damage, which is generally what they try to keep on him, given that his kit is generally 'unreliable' compared to most assassins (kit-wise, balancing is a bitch for a lot of them right now).
: By recent I am referring to recent seasons, not just recent days. Champions like azir, ekko, kindred, reksai and most recently camille all came out with kits that does way too many things and the older ones already got one or even multiple parts of their kit removed. This trend is basically: 1. make a champion with overloaded kit 2. ignore them until they dominate LCS 3. gut the champion and remove part of their kit 4. leave them in the guttedville
I mean, Ekko's a healthy champ at the moment, and has only been a problem when overtuned on release (Most champs get that or undertuned anyhow) and when the tank build was realized, and eventually nerfed. AP Ekko has always been an acceptable kit, obviously barring release, and if you removed anything from his kit, he'd be shit on. Even with Tank Ekko, the only thing you could feasibly have removed would've been his Q, since that version of Ekko relied on using the passive slows and mobility more than anything.
: Yeah, but that's going to mainly be in me lee matchups, where you need to stat check more than outplay. In midlane/ranged matchups, I doubt anyone will be maxin q, just due to how much you need fast gapclosers in said lanes
Well yeah, but that's why I stated top lane as opposed to mid lane. Obviously exceptions apply, but in lanes against Melee there's a decent chance we see Q maxes with this nerf. Of course, it is just a straight nerf, but I'm honestly ok with it, it'll hopefully lower the amount of bans and low-tier players of the champ, even if not by much.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reposer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3sXkJzjQ,comment-id=000f000100050002000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-13T18:36:05.706+0000) > > Yeah, and your point is? Yasuo is broken and even when he's not broken but just kinda viable, playing against him feels like garbage as he forces your entire team to just sit, wait, and watch his team dominate a fight. That kind of strength-agnostic utility would be fitting on a support character who always depends on their team to do well. As a fallback option for a character who can also become strong enough to solo carry it's completely ridiculous. He needs a redesign in order to properly fit into this game.
Man, if he's so absurdly busted that he's just a one-size fits all champion, why isn't he used competitively? Why isn't he a huge threat in higher elos? I'm doing my best here to explain forms of counter-engage and providing actual statements to prove my point, and all anyone can ever do on the boards is say 'No you're wrong because I can't learn to play against a champion' I never have issues against Yasuo, because I know what he does, it's not that hard to learn a champion's weakness and exploit it, or work around the tools that they're given. While it is possible that windwall can completely change the course of a fight, I've given reasons as to why it isn't just the holy grail of all abilities, and you literally just keep picking out the first few words, saying your own bit against it, and denying anything I've said, but without actually giving a reason to it. No reason the League community's so hated, no one can stand to have a reasonable argument about something they dislike here. When Tank Ekko was strong, I'd state stuff like 'Itemization has made him stronger, and new unforseen builds that weren't intended for him jsut made him over the top.' But all I could get in return was 'Ekko's kit is completely and utterly broken, and there's no way it could possibly work' except for, you know, when there wasn't a broken tank build brought about because of new items, or after they made a few slight changes and eliminated the build all together. Honestly, there's no reason even typing this all out, you're just gonna take the first sentence, say something arbitrary and opinionated, and state it as fact, as is the boards.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reposer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3sXkJzjQ,comment-id=000f0001000500020000,timestamp=2017-01-13T07:26:34.229+0000) > > That's assuming that, in those 3.75 seconds, the enemy team uses up all their necessary projectiles for a fight on a wall Oh I didn't know people can't also save their abilities until after Kayle ult wears off.
Yeah, and your point is? I mean, it's the counterplay to an ability, it doesn't matter if something else also has that counterplay, it's not like it weakens you even further to wait just like you do with Kayle. Do you have any comments for the rest of it, or are you just going to cherrypick that one statement without taking into consideration the reasons I listed it as being weaker than Kayle's ultimate? Something such as, I dunno, > unless the timing is terrible for them, they'd have to waste those abilities while the wall is active, meaning it was all their fault. It's the same thing as shoving abilities into Kayle while she's surrounded in a bubble. Literally in the same sentence that's said, and you can apply the same logic to Kayle. Plus the entire rest of what was pointed out. > unless Yasuo is directly in the enemy team (almost always a terrible idea unless his team has made a proper engage for him, or he's ridiculously fed) the walls more often are defensive You know, meaning that as long as you can wait it out, or get a flank, you can derail it. And that's assuming that all your engage is skillshot based. There are a multitude of champions that can engage without giving a shit about Yasuo's wall, and if your team happens to rely on only skillshots for your engage against Yasuo, then you got drafted poorly.
LankPants (OCE)
: >And if Yasuo just places an extremely well-timed windwall that blocks off the Sejuani ult at the time of arrival, well props to him, and lowering the time wouldn't affect it. Except all he has to do is throw it reactivity in any direction and it will block. He can throw it in the wrong direction after the ult has visually hit and still block it. Yasuo's wall is the definition of a panic button spell.
I mean yeah, that part of it is actually bullshit, I agree. However, it's not like it covers the entirety of the wall length in that instance. When something hits Yasuo like that, where he missed the wall's direction, but timed it, it only removes it if it hits Yasuo's model. Again, that's stupid, and one part that really does need fixing, but the way the spell is intended to work, that's not really a worry. Plus there's still the fact that again, it's much smaller, so if they're not aiming for him directly, in a teamfight that won't matter.
: Well i just disagree with this as wind wall was always meant to be a tool to block ranged auto attacks and ranged spells that travel such as charm, katarina daggers, anything ashe can do, ect ect. so yes it should not block nami ultimate, braum ulti even if only for clarity when vsing him as to what will work and wont. So maybe you just want to keep wind wall as it is regardless of clarity? ok then fine but if not windwall where else are you going to pull out power? will you let them make the shield less forgiving in terms of total dps blocked? maybe your ult? either in terms of armor pen or how it breaks the rules of all other placement moves with regards to towers?
Clarity? You're talking about obvious projectiles not acting as projectiles, and instead as something completely different? The reason it blocks everything is because if it moves from one place to another from a champion-based location (Obviously almost always the champion itself) that is itself a projectile. Now if they changed the way these abilities worked, maybe by having Braum's ult not have a travel time, and instead just erupting from the ground. But the way it works, it just moves from one point to another, thus being classed projectile. Nami ultimate is also a normal projectile, its size is a bit odd, and as I said, they could re-code the ability to behave in a more natural way, but as it stands there is absolutely no reason that something moving along the ground, that hits things in its path, should be allowed to go through something that is designed specifically to block that thing. For the rest of it, he is currently getting nerfs of course, and I can see some nerfs to windwall being viable, such as a smaller wall, or, what I really think he needs, the removal of the 'Full Body' windwall he gets on immediate cast. I play Yasuo, obviously, and I think that's dumb. If you miss the wall, you don't deserve to block an ability anyways just by timing alone. You could weaken the shield, but it's honestly pretty damn weak as it is, it just feels stronger because it's visible power. If, for example, they removed the shield but increased his HP/Resistances it would actually be stronger, because it's not something you can just hit once and then disengage, re-engaging when you're ready, before his shield is up again. The ultimate, I talked about it in one of my recent replies actually, but basically, his ult damage on its own is nothing. Yeah it makes some difference in fighting, but it's almost always used to catch people, get the armor pen, or gain the shield. It's not like, for example, Vi's ult, where it's a huge damaging ability that is impossible to miss, with the downside of it obviously putting her right in the thick of things.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3sXkJzjQ,comment-id=000f00010005,timestamp=2017-01-12T23:29:56.719+0000) > > What this created was a situation where the person who had flash up had 100% agency over a character who relied on a targeted projectile to be effective. Sounds like Yasuo. I legitimately don't understand why Yasuo has the ability to neutralize all projectile-using enemies for a full 3.75 seconds with a single normal ability. That's more versatile, longer in duration, and shorter in cooldown than a Kayle ult on top of all the other stuff Yasuo does.
That's assuming that, in those 3.75 seconds, the enemy team uses up all their necessary projectiles for a fight on a wall, especially considering that unless the timing is terrible for them, they'd have to waste those abilities while the wall is active, meaning it was all their fault. On top of that, unless Yasuo is directly in the enemy team (almost always a terrible idea unless his team has made a proper engage for him, or he's ridiculously fed) the walls more often are defensive, and don't have much impact on engages, unless the enemies decide not to bait the wall first, or flank, or wait to counter-engage instead, or have some form of non-skillshot reliant engage, which is extremely plentiful. And if Yasuo just places an extremely well-timed windwall that blocks off the Sejuani ult at the time of arrival, well props to him, and lowering the time wouldn't affect it. Not to mention that the wall is stationary, and a line, so going around or through it is also possible. And oh yeah, it has an 18 second CD which means, as long as you didn't throw everything you need into the wall, as earlier said, you should still be able to attempt a re-engage within an ample amount of time. Not saying there aren't problems, such as the wall working from all directions on his person for a split second on cast, and the time isn't a terrible thing to shorten, but it's not just an end-all-be-all invincibility spell that makes his team an impenetrable fortress.
: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iOmlZrG1,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-12T18:52:40.049+0000) > > We think Yasuo's too strong and want to hit his early power more than his late, hence a shift of E damage from base to ratio. E's also a spell with really high utility, so can afford to lose some power while still being highly relevant and satisfying. Finally, we'd also like to make Q max a little more attractive, comparatively, as a build (better counterplay against lane opponents, so want a bit more trade off if he's maxing E). This won't make maxing Q more attractive. People don't just max E because it's so good. They max E because maxing Q gives jack diddly shit. Twenty extra base damage isn't a substantial increase at all. Yasuo is not good at stat-checking his opponents top lane and this nerf won't suddenly change that. If I could max Q and use it to beat the shit out of an Irelia, Darius, or Garen in lane just by standing my ground with them I would. He needs the mobility to even interact with his ranged opponents mid lane. Also, by the way, based on what is he too strong? I recall someone on the Riot team harping on and on about how champion.gg isn't reliable and we should use lolalytics, which is far more reliable. Well I do use lolalytics. http://lolalytics.com/champion/Yasuo/ What here implies that he is too strong right now?
Actually, at the moment, some of the top Yasuo players, at least vocal ones, are expecting top lane to be a Q max with the new nerfs, at least on case-by-case basis. In lanes where it's required to have mobility over damage, you'll still take E, and overall, it'll likely keep being the main thing to max. But with proper runes, you can go Q and, while not fully able to make up the damage lost on the E, you'll gain more reliable damage, since it's obviously up much more often.
Ra1uga (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Darth Nero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iOmlZrG1,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2017-01-12T20:50:17.669+0000) > > Thank you for replying. Just a few things, if you find the time to answer, > > A) In which way do you believe him to be too strong? As far as I can tell his counters are doing very well. Who he counters are being countered. His win rate is below 50% or pretty near to it. Do you mean kit wise? Because champions like Ahri dog Yasuo there. Yasuo is super affected by cc, which most of his opponent laners have a version of. Plus he is close range and a melee champion, giving people ample time to react properly. > > B) Why hit Yasuo's early game when plenty of other champions are far more powerful all game long? You can't deny mid lane mages are fairly strong themselves. > > C) When Yasuo Ult's off of an allies knock up and has his q tornado active, the tornado is no longer usable after ulting off someone else's knock up. Meaning the animation is active and the hit box, but nothing can be thrown. Is this a glitch or on purpose? Theroetically if you're a good enough yasuo you should never get hit by a skillshot.
Theoretically if you have infinite minions and a 3s CD on WW, you should never get hit by a skillshot. It's not like you, at any point in time, have infinite dashes without some sort of pre-requisite. You may have windwall, but it has, a 3.75 second length, and at best, an 18 second CD.
: So long as yasuo blocks abilities that he just should not be able to block nobody will ever enjoy playing vs him. {{champion:267}} No reason his wind wall should be able to negate a nami ult given its visual looks and the nature of the ability. {{champion:54}} I'll admit this one is debatable but it still should not block abilities that technically travel underground. {{champion:32}} along with any champion that uses their physical body in a projectile fashion like orianna should not be deleted by wind wall, having the spell trigger/end at windwalls location? sure but just straight up deleting parts of a champions body? uh no.
{{champion:267}} is a weird case. Technically you'd think it shouldn't block it, but the workaround to that is to re-code Nami's ult, because there's no reason it shouldn't be able to be blocked, considering it's a projectile, but it does look odd when there's only a small part of it that gets walled and it just goes away. Unfortunately this is all a coding issue, and not something that can be fairly fixed without changing the way the spell works (ex. {{champion:111}} ultimate) or re-coding the projectiles. {{champion:54}} is a projectile. It doesn't matter what the effects look like, unless they change the way that the ability works, and removes it as a projectile, it counts. Besides, it's still aboveground. The wheel isn't underground, so a wall should technically be able to block it. Same thing as people thinking {{champion:201}} shouldn't be blocked. If it travels through air or along the ground, it would be able to be stopped by a physical wall, and that's the thinking behind Windwalls or Braum shield. {{champion:32}} is literally throwing a bandage. In every way that's a projectile. It doesn't matter that he pulls himself with it, it's a physical thing he tosses out, not him just moving his body. That's like saying you shouldn't let {{champion:111}} or {{champion:412}} or even {{champion:89}} hooks get blocked because they pull themselves.
Quepha (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iOmlZrG1,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T19:29:23.868+0000) > > those are also basic spells, yasuos is his ult. OK then let's talk about Zed, Warwick (old and new), J4, Vi, Rengar, Diana and Akali. Don't forget all of those ultimates except Diana and Akali are on a MUCH longer cooldown than Yasuo's (30 seconds at 16 before cdr)
The biggest thing all of their ults have that Yasuo's doesn't is their multi-faceted usefulness. Yasuo's ult itself is pitiful for damage, and is barely used for the damage, but more to reposition and empower your other attacks with the armor pen. All of the other ults you mentioned are extremely powerful facets of their kit that do most everything they'll need, and are basically the main part of their damage, being much more powerful on average than a Yasuo ult on its lonesome. The cooldown thing is practically a nonfactor in this instance because most of the time, the 'Not under tower' portion of the ultimate doesn't mean anything except in the early game, where his ult has a more significant cooldown.
: Teemo Q vs Yasuo Q
Active: Yasuo thrusts his sword forward, dealing physical damage to all enemies in a line. Steel Tempest can Critical strike icon critically strike and will apply on-hit effects to the first enemy hit. Quoted from the wiki entry - it's not technically an auto attack, but rather a skillshot that applies on-hits and can crit. Functionally, it works as an auto attack, but the way it's coded seems to not be as such, just able to crit and apply on-hits. Similar to both Master Yi and Ezreal's Q in that sense, but both doing only a single part of it.
Aazzlano (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Reposer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ApABrrL,comment-id=00060000000000020000,timestamp=2016-12-08T18:36:08.268+0000) > Also, 12% Damage Reduction is NOT equal to 12% extra HP. Lower damage numbers aren't touched by it nearly as much as larger numbers, making DoT or weak, fast attacks more effective than burst, and you get no benefit against true damage. Wut? 12% damage reduction literally means you take 12% less damage from anything not true damage. If you take 100 damage you take 12% less, so 12 less. If you take 1000 damage you take 120 less, still 12%. And if you took 100 damage 10 times you'd take 12 less, 10 times, still 120 less. Percentages work exactly the same for any number, thats why they are percentages. But you are actually right, I was thinking about it the wrong way. If you have 50% damage reduction, you basically have double hp, because 1/0.5 = 2. So if you have 12% damage reduction, you have 1/.88= 1.136 so 13.6% more effective HP. So my calculations are actually lowballing the real value that you are getting. I'd re-do the calculation but it's already quite bullshit and doesn't need this extra amount to prove my point.
Ynow, tbh, not sure why I said that last part, I was tired. However, that's still an issue with an item rather than a champ, which you didn't really respond to :\ I'm just hearing reasons to nerf PD rather than reasons to nerf Yasuo, and that's something I can honestly get behind, because the item is just too good.
: His Windwall does have a long cool down that is true, but its still a toxic ability. If you play around his windwall, its not because you did good but because Yasuo failed to properly use it. If you play around his shield its because he failed. That is just the kind of toxic champion he is, and I am not saying he is OP or imbalanced, just that his kit removes any sort of fun in dueling him. He is always at an advantage over majority of champions. If we change the Windwall to be less reliable we can lower its cool down while retaining the true use of that ability, to block CC. HIs flow shield I would be happy if they just removed it, but that is me being overly hateful of the champion, my suggestion allows him to keep it as is but he needs to pay attention to his Flow.
I mean, I do agree that we should change Windwall in some capacity, but honestly the only thing I really dislike about it is that it gets the free full-body block on cast, which makes it so you can still fuck up the direction and get the block anyways. Aside from that, it's not like it's absolutely impossibly difficult to fucking make a Yas burn a wall, or force him to take damage if he refuses to wall. If it wasn't clear, I play Yas a lot, he's definitely one of my mains, and whenever I'm against him, not only do I counterpick if I can - because he has a LOT of counters that are oft played - but it's easy to bait out walls and take out his shield if you're a ranged caster. And if you're a melee, it really just depends, but some of the common ones mid - Zed, Ekko, Talon - can work well against him as long as you play around Yas properly. Especially the latter, you literally just need to auto him once to remove his shield if you're ranged, and that's not really that difficult to do. If he REALLY wants to keep his shield up, he'll have to back up - thus losing CS - or he'll have to Windwall it, which is really just a waste in most cases. You can't really remove his shield the way he is now, because he is incredibly squishy, which most people seem to forget. If you made the wall more reliable but harder to use - something like an instacast that blocks everything like normal, but only hits in front of him for a split second, and works on charge system. That's just my fave idea, but something along those lines could definitely work out as a change that would make him harder to play for people that aren't good at him, and potentially make him better for the people that are actually good at him, which most people don't complain about anyways.
: PD is too strong, but Yasuo is also too strong. If they nerf PD he will find and abuse another item that will end up being nerfed instead of him. They need to stop nerfing/buffing problem champions and instead look at what makes them so strong. Yasuo's Windwall and Flow Shield are too reliable for him and offer nothing to his opponents except that he is allowed to make mistakes and they are not.
His mistakes still have high cooldowns early game, that any poke mage can work around after breaking the shield with a ranged auto, and either baiting out the wall with some random ability/autos, or just dealing good damage to him within the window his shield is down. They're fairly strong abilities, but people act as if there's absolutely no counterplay. Learn to play the champ, and you'll be able to work around them with ease - given you aren't counterpicked (Vel'Koz gits fucked) or the Yasuo isn't a god.
: So instead I just sit there and let him kill me, because if I used my CC he'll just block it. League is a dynamic game. I'm not always going to be able to "bait out" his windfall before fighting him. The person playing Yasuo is probably just as intelligent as I am, and for a smart Yasuo, he only needs to windwall once to win a fight.
I mean, with a 26 second CD, you should be able to work around it, and if nothing else, use your range (You know, the thing Yas lacks except once every 9 seconds) to poke him down,and eventually force a windwall or back. You can easily do this with most ranged midlaners, and while it does cost mana, as long as you stay warded and vigilant, you can pretty much just freely trade with him, with little he can do, as long as you understand how far you need to stay, and STAY AWAY FROM YOUR MINIONS. Seriously, people don't seem to realize how easy it is to stay out of Yas's dash range by just positioning yourself far enough away from minions. People can complain about his 'infinite dashes' as much as they want, but as long as you understand how he's able to dash, and keep a tab on the minions, which are his basic movement line, you won't get caught out, and the worst that could happen is a beyblade - a very advanced tactic that burns a flash on Yas, and isn't much to complain about because only high-tier players can do it.
Aazzlano (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zerenza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4ApABrrL,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-12-07T20:57:20.248+0000) > > Yasuo is one of the strongest laner's in mid lane, but it's not because of his windwall it's cause of his passive, it prevents the player from recognizing yasuo's actual power, its near impossible to gauge what a yasuo can do. It blocks a SHIT TON of things and if the player was forced to use one or the other that would make gauging yasuo's power in lane much easier, it certainly wouldn't make him useless because his kit has so many other things over other champions that it doesn't really matter. Yeah. People don't realize how bullshit his scaling is, and that it is mostly because of his passive. It allows him to just rush PD and gain ridiculous stats from it, far outscaling what it normally would, and should, on any other champion. His windwall is a joke compared to how broken his passive is and how it scales him. He is a nightmare in lane because of all the extra free shit he gets from his passive, and it only gets worse as the game goes on. Late game Yasuo's passive is worth: 50% crit chance = 2000g 510 HP Shield x 2 = 2719g 4700g of stats from his passive. And these are MULTIPLICATIVE stats, so their effectiveness will scale off of any of his items, such as Phantom Dancer giving him triple multiplicative scaling (Crit chance multiplies his AD, his passive multiplies the crit chance, and the % damage reduction multiplies off of his shield) For a late game example, Level 18 Yasuo with no other items besides PD and IE will get these stats from PD: 30% critical strike chance = 1200 Gold x2 from passive = 2400 Gold 45% attack speed = 1125 Gold 5% movement speed = 197.5 Gold Passive 1: Ghosting Passive 2: 7% movement speed = 276.5 Gold Passive 3: 12% damage reduction ~= 12% total effective hp when fighting a single target 12% total hp comes out to be 1912 base HP at level 18 1020 HP from shield 12% of that HP = 351 HP = 938 Gold Add that all up and you get... 4937g worth of stats, for an item that costs 2550 gold. Yes he doesn't unlock these stats right away, but the multiplicative scaling is insane. That's 193% gold efficient WITHOUT any other items, though thats at level 18. But let's take his common build, he usually gets Frozen Mallet and Guardian Angel. Frozen Mallet gives 700 health and GA gives 60 Armor + 45 MR. This is a combined gold value of 3876g. 12% of that = 466g. Oh wait but he builds Bloodthirster too! It will multiply off of the lifesteal AND the shield. 20% life steal = 750 Gold 350 shield = 933 Gold 12% = 200 more gold. Let's get a total again: PD will grant a full build Yasuo ~5600 gold worth of stats, meaning its 220% gold efficient. It's over 3000g of free stats added. And that's not even counting the Ghosting passive from PD which lets him walk through units. Oh, and the bonus effective "HP" that he gets from PD's damage reduction vs his target is of course, unaffected by % health damage, % missing health damage, armor/magic pen, or anything else. During the laning phase, he doesn't have all of this power unlocked, however, it gradually goes up and even if he is massively behind, it doesn't matter because his scaling is ridiculous. And god save you if he is ahead lol. But yeah in mid levels even if he got destroyed in lane, he picks up PD as his first item anyway since its so obscenely broken on him, and he functions perfectly fine, and can even outperform a fed enemy. Stupid. And late game, well we all know how stupid he is then.
It seems like the problem is PD as an item then, rather than Yasuo, in this case? It's pretty commonly known that PD is extremely powerful as opposed to the other Zeal items, especially for Yasuo, since he's a duelist who has everything to gain from the item. But even so, it's just a problem item, on a champion that makes great use of it. This is such a common theme lately, with itemization pushing a champ too far, and then people complaining about champs rather than itemization, even if DIRECTLY TALKING ABOUT ITEMS (Read: Tank Ekko). There are some issues with Yas, but making a drawn out explanation on why PD is super powerful then using it to complain about one of the champs that uses the items, isn't necessarily proving anything about the champ themselves, just that they happen to benefit from an OP item. It's just like complaining about Shyv/Yi/Xin when devourer was strong instead of the item itself, even if it was obviously Devourer pushing champs over the edge. Also, 12% Damage Reduction is NOT equal to 12% extra HP. Lower damage numbers aren't touched by it nearly as much as larger numbers, making DoT or weak, fast attacks more effective than burst, and you get no benefit against true damage.
: I don't care if he has a negative win rate, if he's not "in the meta," if pros do not pick him...
Aite, I'll comment on my thoughts on each of your points, as a filthy Yasuo semi-main (Right alongside Ekko, hate me plx) **1 -** I think there are two sides to this, if they, let's say, removed his crit bonus, people wouldn't touch crit on him, which sounds great, but in reality, makes his early powerspikes much more powerful, and it'd be based off of raw damage per hit, which would actually make hit-and-run Yasuo much more powerful than it is now, since he'll need to be in for less to do more damage. It would make his late game a bit weaker, but would, in the end, make no one hate him less, because he could still be powerful on you in the early game, and do so much more handily, and would scale out of control just the same if fed early, which would be easy. Now, considering you didn't actually **say** to fully remove the crit, which is just something I wanted to comment on because it's almost always brought up, there's not much that can be done to actually reduce this, except the only thing I've seen as a good suggestion, which would be to shove that into a passive on his windwall. Something like for every level you get a 20/40/60/80/100% bonus crit chance per level of wall. That'd work out great, but probably wouldn't solve much (hard to say for sure) because all it'd do is lower his Q damage a bit, since people would most likely level W second, since in total, Q can only give 100 bonus damage, and doesn't lower CD per level. This might work however, and is certainly worth a try. **2 - ** This is honestly a terrible idea. There would have to be compensation if they made his E clunkier or have a longer CD. You say that there's no consequence, but really, unless you play Yasuo/Understand him, you don't realize just how much there is. They COULD increase minion lockout, but nothing else would be acceptable. If you're in lane, you have to properly use your E to weave around minions if you wanna get out, and most times, you need a full wave to get in and out quickly, or you need to have them lined up just right, and perform just right, so that you can do it to catch them off guard. If it's out of lane, then there are ways to work around his dashes that a LOT of people seem to not realize or seem to forget when they need to. One huge thing I see is people running directly into minion waves instead of jungle/brush/enemy side (definitely riskier though). And it's an easy way to lose a Yasuo that would otherwise catch you, because all of his mobility is based on the minions, unless they're a Godsuo and can junglehop with ease. If you get caught by him, let's say, when you know he's coming bot, as an ADC in the middle of lane (Because you mentioned ADC 1v1 early in the post) because, if you don't know he's coming, there's no reason he shouldn't win a fight since he's, yknow, a duelist/assassin made for 1v1. You can immediately start to run towards your tower or jungle, unless you're pushed up too far to get there in time, then you can take brushes, pop a windwall/his shield with a ranged ability before he reaches you, and then start to attack him. If you're one of those ADCs with mobility, you can wait for him to approach, pop his shield/wall and then, if he walls, move away from it, and either escape, or fight him without his wall. You'll almost always be out of his E range (Can't think of an ADC with mobility that's short enough not to other than Kalista, who has even more than Yas), and you'll have range advantage at that point, unless he somehow double-Q'd you in that timeframe, and then it's a matter of hoping you can dodge, otherwise, unless you're actually fed like you say, you'll lose. **3 -** Windwall can have some changes put into it, but one thing that should stick, unless you give him more power elsewhere, is it removing all projectile abilities. You can't really slow a projectile without it feeling bad, because it'd be hard to discern whether a projectile is slowed unless it was made PAINFULLY obvious, and it'd have to be a significant slow to mean anything. Yasuo would lose immense amounts of power if that change was made. Two great possible changes that could occur would be: - Turn his windwall into a 'Deflect' that does the current windwall-size arc but only in an instacast, and with lower cooldowns. So it wouldn't last for more than one projectile, unless you clump them together, and it'd take more skill to utilize. Heck, maybe put it in a charge system, and make the arc only the size of the current level 1 windwall, so it would be stronger for dueling, rather than teamfighting. - Remove the free 'self' wall you get around your body when you use it, except in the direction cast. Because this just encourages sloppy walls, since it won't matter which way its cast, and can even disrupt pincer attacks at times. There's no real reason this should still be a thing in my eyes. **4 -** While it is true that he's listed as a Skirmisher, it's more in the sense that he's supposed to duck in and out, and weave around fights, rather than just shove into them head-on without doing much. Animation cancels are a skillcap thing, and removing them feels bad for the player, and makes the champion clunkier, which - especially on a champion such as Yasuo - is a terrible way to nerf a champ. **5 -** I'd say for this one, it is definitely possible to remove the turret-safety on his ultimate. I honestly didn't even realize that was a thing for a while, and performed just fine. The shield is necessary in my eyes because there's been a countless number of times that I won fights or escaped solely because of that shield, and every time they were tooth-and-nail situations. The armor pen is also there because his ult is honestly nearly **useless** when it comes to the damage it provides on its own, and if that were removed, there'd actually be situations where it's more beneficial to keep attacking in a 1v1 rather than ulting, and that would be sad. These were my thoughts on the matter, if you have comments feel free to leave them, I'm fairly open as well, and I think out of all of these, my favorite suggestions would boil down to: Treat this as a **TL;DR:** 1. Put crit bonus on his windwall rather than his generic passive. 20/40/60/80/100% bonus scaling 2. EDITED IN: Increase his cooldown on minions dashed to on his E. Least favorite suggestion however. 3. Turn windwall into a deflect, with an instacast that doesn't remain on the field, but has a charge system and no increase in size per level. This makes duelist Yasuo stronger and weakens teamfight Yasuo 4. Remove the 'tower-dive' part of his ult, so he has to risk his life to ult under the tower. Not all of these, but one of these would likely make him much easier to balance and healthier in most people's eyes.
: Sigh. This patch is literally a week old. Adjustments can be made. I understand the salt however. But ADCs and Assassins are yelling at each other right now screaming no counterplay when nobody has learned how to 100% play as or against these assassins yet.
I mean, yeah, there's still a bit of learning to do with assassins, but general consensus is that they're mostly weaker than before. Also, a week old doesn't mean much when patches are 2 week cycles, that's half of the cycle.
: Name 1 change to 1 ability that would completely break a champion.
{{champion:245}} Has no mana cost on his ultimate Oh shit. (I remember when I thought that was fair, poor stupid me)
Silmaril (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bladerunner7777,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qQReTRFM,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-16T15:13:44.051+0000) > > What? This champion is strong for a patch or two? > > Needs to be deleted. Riot is stupid for designing them in the first place. > > _champion gets a numbers nerf and returns to a 50% winrate_ > > _people stop complaining_ > > _boards find a new champion that needs to be "deleted"_ Nah, that's not really how boards operates on a general level. In my experience it's more split up by class how good a winrate a champion needs to be considered "overpowered" by Boards. Tanks: 58% Supports: 57% Mages: 55-56% Bruisers:54-55% Ranged solo laners: 46% ADCs: 49-50% Assassins: 45-47% Yasuo: 1%
Hell, even then, stuff like tanks, if they're just being a big super tank, don't really get picked on. Malphite and Rammus are hyper-strong for a few patches cause of ADC meta? It's ok, it's only cause of the meta, not their design, no hate. Support that gets out of line that isn't named Soraka? It's ok, just retune them a bit, they're good to go. Risky damage dealers like assassins/yasuo/etc doing their job and scraping about 50% winrate? Fucking ridiculous, you're terrible at game design, fuck yourselves riot etc. Doesn't even matter if it was a problem prior to a certain build that got out of line (Tank Ekko anyone?) People just despise the champs that aren't just button mashers without recognizing actual issues such as itemization, masteries, meta, etc. Then, just like the post says, after a little while people hate that one thing, they find a new one, and the cycle repeats.
TheMinez (NA)
: With that change, 5 sterak's when the passive activated would literally be a 949.21875% base ad bonus if the passive was unchanged. That would be incredibly disgusting with triforce. WITHOUT using his Q, using spellblade from triforce would do 2847.65625% of a champ's base AD. Without runes and masteries, a full build morde would deal 4157.578125 damage with 1 auto attack. That is also known as deleting squishies and destroying tanks. If we used an auto attack after illaoi Q for example, it would still deal 4129.1015625 not including her W damage. This would break any champion with any high base AD. Source : {{item:3053}} bonus base ad stacks multiplicatively. So to find it for 5 I took 1.5^5*1.25 (counting passive) to get 9.4921875 as the base ad multiplier. I then multiplied by 3 to get 28.4765625 (The initial auto + spellblade proc) and to get the damage I multiplied by their base ad at level 18 (No I didn't factor in triforce ad, it seems insignificant to the main point) to get the respective damage values of an auto attack. Do you really want someone who can (without stacking) 1 or 2 shot towers and inhibs? TL;DR : Ya done made a Nasus out of an ap bruiser. Yes the math was done by me.
Uh. You can't stack the passive, it's a unique. Only one would activate at a time, and put the rest on cooldown.
: http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/527/159/15d.gif
: Yasou counters?
Yo, I got ya. **Copypasted from something I typed up a while back** However, there are a LOT of counters to Yasuo, some skill matchups and some that are just devestating for Yasuo, without much he can do aside from ganks. Skill Matchups: {{champion:1}} (Largely dependent on if she lands Tibburs before Yas walls, or if she's positioned to where it doesn't matter if she's walled) {{champion:69}} (Though she's got a big advantage, Yas can win a fight if properly E'd out of stun or Cass misses W) {{champion:105}} (If he dodges a Tornado, Fizz can shit on a Yasuo with his burst, but at the same time, Yas can wall the Fish) {{champion:245}} (I partially say this cause Ekko main, but as of now, with all the slows on his kit keeping Yas's E's slower, and the huge AoE stun zoning Yas, he can easily tussle with the swordsman. Not to mention you can bait an E>Q tornado and dodge/burst with your ult if you play it right) {{champion:114}} (If you block the Tornado - you win - otherwise lead him away from minions and you may be able to fight him.) {{champion:43}} (A bit iffy, but your speed and targeted snare is extremely useful, and you can burn his windwall with a weak Q before using Mantra for the real damage) {{champion:38}} (Mobility, only one projectile, and lots of damage. Yas hates a good Kass, but if you fail to dodge a tornado, say goodbye to your life) {{champion:78}} (Disrupt his extreme movement with a W, then place him away from your minions with a quick tap R and E - build damage though, or Yas will still kill you before you can kill him, even without minions) {{champion:13}} (If you can bait the wall, you can engage once it's down extremely easily. Ryze has huge burst and the clickcast snare frightens a Yasuo, but if Yas lands a Tornado and you don't have him snared, you have to be ready to act) {{champion:91}} (Unless Yasuo blocks Talon's Rake - there's nothing he can do, assuming you have everything ready.) **EDIT: Not sure as of update, haven't had this fight yet** {{champion:238}} (Huge skill matchup, largely depends on how well Yas can dodge and whether he blocks your triple shuriken - get a BorK and rely on autos if they're good) ...{{champion:157}} c: Dumpsters Yas: {{champion:268}} (Ridiculously annoying for Yas to deal with, and he needs a good jungler - preferably a knockup jungler - to have a chance to deal with Azir. Weak balance state aside - Azir can easily poke Yasuo, since soldier autos go through Windwall, you have mobility of your own, and your Ult easily disrupts him and keeps him from E'ing towards you.) {{champion:31}} (If you land your knockup or silence - he's done for. Build some damage and there's nothing stopping you from killing him once you land one ability.) {{champion:122}} (Absolutely devastating, don't let Yas bully you too much early, and start W>E if you're feeling ballsy, he won't be able to do shit. Let him get cocky and E through minions to you, if he's alone you can stand in your minions and keep him slowed. Don't underestimate him, once he gets crit items he'll shred through you with armor pen, but if you kite him you can ruin him.) {{champion:120}} (While not a laner, this is an example of a Jungler that Yasuo hates to play against, easy to dive him once you're somewhat tanky, and it's difficult to stop a Hecarim gank, and you can 'dodge' the Tornado by ulting through it, since you can't get CC'd) {{champion:39}} (Really shits on Yas 1v1, the best Yas can hope for in this lane - aside from the Irelia being terrible - is to not die. Yas DOES win the level 1 - and potentially level 2 - fight, but as long as you don't let him cheese you out of lane too early, he won't be able to fight you level 3 or up, and once you start getting items it just gets worse for Yas. A great Ireila can dumpster Yas with her minion dashes, if the Yas is playing behind his casters, and then he's either forced to flash or hope you don't have the damage to off him in time, since he has no mobility outside of your minion wave.) {{champion:10}} (This one is sort of a skill matchup, but favors Kayle. Nothing much to it, but if you ult when he does, you negate the ult and you can most likely ruin him with damage. You have a clickcast slow and your heal gives you movespeed, so it's hard for him to disengage if you've caught him out. Be wary fighting without your ult though, unless you're decently ahead or he has no minions/ult of his own.) {{champion:85}} (Man. Fuck this thing. While you do have a skillshot on your Q, that's your only downside, and it's fairly insignificant. Bait out one wall with a Q - or even some autos - and when you're able to, get a quick full round on him to land the stun, and you'll be able to chunk him hard. You don't have mana, so do this often, and once you hit 6, you just faceroll over him. Rush a Protobelt so you can easily catch him with your ult and you'll force a flash or he'll die.) {{champion:121}} (Somewhat iffy, but if you play Kha right, and the Yasuo _isn't ahead_, then you can kill him isolated with little issue, unless he's got a lot of tank stats.) {{champion:54}} (A bit of an odd pick - Malphite doesn't have a great time laning against Yasuo, but once you hit 6, you can easily fuck him up if you build right. Rush Tabi into another armor item (Randuins is best, but Sunfire works too) and he'll be doing a pitiful amount of damage unless you fed him. Also, your Q more often than not glitches through the windwall if he insta-casts it. {{champion:90}} (Well, this was already explained. Nothing can be walled, you have a suppress that's clickcast and a silence. Have fun.) {{champion:57}} (Fairly similar to Malphite, but does less damage. Better for later in the game rather than laning, and best if it's in the jungle with your laner a good Yas counter. He can clickcast snare - and with Tabi/Randuins/Frozen (Don't need the Tabi, but they're great if you don't need to worry about other CC much) he has a bitch of a time doing much to your team, and especially to you. Katanas are not efficient for woodcutting.) {{champion:111}} (Can't do much to Yas on his own, but Yas can't windwall his ult, and your auto also snares. Use the hook on walls if need to catch a Yasuo, and you know he has wall up. Easy to fuck him up if your team is able to provide the damage and Yas isn't fed enough to shit on them.) {{champion:80}} (Yasuo can't fuck with you unless he has help. There is nothing a Yas can do to Pantheon unless Panth is already low or misplays. In lane, just spear him repeatedly, and stun him if he tries to go in, but not until after he autos once - if you can wait for it. Minion damage will help a lot, but you can just spend the lane using spears and disengaging with stun, and there's nothing he can do about it. You win lane, late game is a bit even, however, if he has minions.) {{champion:33}} (Not much to say, this is pretty obvious. Point-and-click taunt, built in thornmail, build a thornmail. Build a combination of Thornmail with Frozen/Randuin/Tabi, any of those added on will ruin him. {{champion:58}} (Pretty damn similar, you do way too much damage for Yasuo to handle early game, and you've got mobility, sustain, and an autoattack stun. Not to mention you can become tanky with your ult, and you're also resourceless. Yas isn't winning this lane without some serious ganks.) {{champion:223}} (Again, even as a top laner, you'll prolly have trouble with Yas 1v1 - you just don't have the damage output. But your CC is amazing, you can spend time relying on autos, and point-blank Q him, then eat him. If he walls the Q, eat him anyways, and wait for the short CD. Of course, you need a teammate to provide the actual damage most likely. Tabi/Frozen/Randuins are all good choices once again.) {{champion:72}} (If you can get in position, he can't stop your ult, so you burn a flash. You can also try to wait for him to wall - if your laner has ranged abilities - and get an easy stun off as well. Easy ganks, but you'll need your laner to finish the job unless you're ahead and building damage.) {{champion:154}} (Last one on the list, Zac is a nightmare for Yasuo if he ganks from the fog. The only thing Yas can do is go for an E - which will be farther towards enemy territory - or flash out. You CC him with no problem using E and Ult, and you have an easy to hit slow. Nothing can be walled, and you may even be able to 1v1 a Yasuo if you have adequate armor and a Rylai's.) There are some general tips too, like how to know when he's gonna want to engage - keeping an eye on the minions/champs he's E'd - knowing not to run from him towards your minions, and to never fight in a huge wave unless you're ez mode against him. There are more but I've typed a lot already. So, here are some champs. Take the first set (Skill matchups) with caution, they're in that category for a reason. If you misplay, or get outplayed, you will still lose fights easily with them.
Zerana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Epicanian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H9nzWunV,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-11-13T02:40:44.680+0000) > > you do realize it blasts you in the opposite direction of the way you are facing when you auto attack it? it's really easy to aim, you just turn your back to where you want to go. FURTHERMORE, they give you a nice red indicator of where you will land when you mouse over the plant. If it exploded when you walked over it, you would constantly accidentally blast yourself back when trying to walk past it, or accidentally blow your allies into the enemy team. This system is much, much better. Yeah but in the heat of the moment you're not gonna aim very well, It should just blast you in the direction of you mouse.
No, it's a skill thing, it's meant to be something you learn how to work around, instead of being extremely easy to use. It requires you to position in a way where the enemy is less confused about where you may have gone, instead of you just choosing one random direction they may have to guess if you were in Fog for a split second, even if you could only have feasibly went to a certain side of the cone.
: This post contains 16 Jhins. You know what to do.
http://i.imgur.com/qRj6s50.png Nailed it.
: I'm hoping Azir comes back when Riot realizes they deep fried him, as an aside Yasuo really only has one definitive counter in lane and even then its not a 100% he's doomed counter either. {{champion:90}} has all the tools to make a Yasuo cry, his Q is a long duration silence that isn't a projectile, his W will just chase him down and chew him up (if he doesn't use them to dash to you can stab you repeatedly anyway), your E again can't be stopped by Windwall and lets u get some CS from a long range so he can't get up in your face, R is a LITERAL F*** You button to Yasuo and Malz passive can deny him a knock up and thus ultimate. That aside I also share a deep hatred of Yasuo, champion is just living embodiment of BS, shield makes poke super hard to get off, Windwall means you need to go a champion without any projectiles like Malz for fear he'll stop your stun, poke or god forbid your ult (he destroyed my Ez ult on more than one occasion T_T), his E is the most obnoxious spell in the game since it has a literal 0.1 second CD so long as he has fresh targets to dash to (cough Minions cough), and his ult CCs forever while hitting like a truck and giving him a free AA too. Q is also annoying since its an AoE AA that makes BT super efficient on him, had a Yasuo go 12-1 in a ranked game the other night cuz my mid lane picked TF into him, and fed. Yasuo was able to 1v3 anyone on my team just cuz of his insane mobility after he got PD, IE and BT...
Not gonna comment on your Yasuo hate - no point in trying that on boards anymore. However, there are a LOT of counters to Yasuo, some skill matchups and some that are just devestating for Yasuo, without much he can do aside from ganks. Skill Matchups: {{champion:1}} (Largely dependent on if she lands Tibburs before Yas walls, or if she's positioned to where it doesn't matter if she's walled) {{champion:69}} (Though she's got a big advantage, Yas can win a fight if properly E'd out of stun or Cass misses W) {{champion:105}} (If he dodges a Tornado, Fizz can shit on a Yasuo with his burst, but at the same time, Yas can wall the Fish) {{champion:245}} (I partially say this cause Ekko main, but as of now, with all the slows on his kit keeping Yas's E's slower, and the huge AoE stun zoning Yas, he can easily tussle with the swordsman. Not to mention you can bait an E>Q tornado and dodge/burst with your ult if you play it right) {{champion:114}} (If you block the Tornado - you win - otherwise lead him away from minions and you may be able to fight him.) {{champion:43}} (A bit iffy, but your speed and targeted snare is extremely useful, and you can burn his windwall with a weak Q before using Mantra for the real damage) {{champion:38}} (Mobility, only one projectile, and lots of damage. Yas hates a good Kass, but if you fail to dodge a tornado, say goodbye to your life) {{champion:78}} (Disrupt his extreme movement with a W, then place him away from your minions with a quick tap R and E - build damage though, or Yas will still kill you before you can kill him, even without minions) {{champion:13}} (If you can bait the wall, you can engage once it's down extremely easily. Ryze has huge burst and the clickcast snare frightens a Yasuo, but if Yas lands a Tornado and you don't have him snared, you have to be ready to act) {{champion:91}} (Unless Yasuo blocks Talon's Rake - there's nothing he can do, assuming you have everything ready.) {{champion:238}} (Huge skill matchup, largely depends on how well Yas can dodge and whether he blocks your triple shuriken - get a BorK and rely on autos if they're good) ...{{champion:157}} c: Dumpsters Yas: {{champion:268}} (Ridiculously annoying for Yas to deal with, and he needs a good jungler - preferably a knockup jungler - to have a chance to deal with Azir. Weak balance state aside - Azir can easily poke Yasuo, since soldier autos go through Windwall, you have mobility of your own, and your Ult easily disrupts him and keeps him from E'ing towards you.) {{champion:31}} (If you land your knockup or silence - he's done for. Build some damage and there's nothing stopping you from killing him once you land one ability.) {{champion:122}} (Absolutely devastating, don't let Yas bully you too much early, and start W>E if you're feeling ballsy, he won't be able to do shit. Let him get cocky and E through minions to you, if he's alone you can stand in your minions and keep him slowed. Don't underestimate him, once he gets crit items he'll shred through you with armor pen, but if you kite him you can ruin him.) {{champion:120}} (While not a laner, this is an example of a Jungler that Yasuo hates to play against, easy to dive him once you're somewhat tanky, and it's difficult to stop a Hecarim gank, and you can 'dodge' the Tornado by ulting through it, since you can't get CC'd) {{champion:39}} (Really shits on Yas 1v1, the best Yas can hope for in this lane - aside from the Irelia being terrible - is to not die. Yas DOES win the level 1 - and potentially level 2 - fight, but as long as you don't let him cheese you out of lane too early, he won't be able to fight you level 3 or up, and once you start getting items it just gets worse for Yas. A great Ireila can dumpster Yas with her minion dashes, if the Yas is playing behind his casters, and then he's either forced to flash or hope you don't have the damage to off him in time, since he has no mobility outside of your minion wave.) {{champion:10}} (This one is sort of a skill matchup, but favors Kayle. Nothing much to it, but if you ult when he does, you negate the ult and you can most likely ruin him with damage. You have a clickcast slow and your heal gives you movespeed, so it's hard for him to disengage if you've caught him out. Be wary fighting without your ult though, unless you're decently ahead or he has no minions/ult of his own.) {{champion:85}} (Man. Fuck this thing. While you do have a skillshot on your Q, that's your only downside, and it's fairly insignificant. Bait out one wall with a Q - or even some autos - and when you're able to, get a quick full round on him to land the stun, and you'll be able to chunk him hard. You don't have mana, so do this often, and once you hit 6, you just faceroll over him. Rush a Protobelt so you can easily catch him with your ult and you'll force a flash or he'll die.) {{champion:121}} (Somewhat iffy, but if you play Kha right, and the Yasuo _isn't ahead_, then you can kill him isolated with little issue, unless he's got a lot of tank stats.) {{champion:54}} (A bit of an odd pick - Malphite doesn't have a great time laning against Yasuo, but once you hit 6, you can easily fuck him up if you build right. Rush Tabi into another armor item (Randuins is best, but Sunfire works too) and he'll be doing a pitiful amount of damage unless you fed him. Also, your Q more often than not glitches through the windwall if he insta-casts it. {{champion:90}} (Well, this was already explained. Nothing can be walled, you have a suppress that's clickcast and a silence. Have fun.) {{champion:57}} (Fairly similar to Malphite, but does less damage. Better for later in the game rather than laning, and best if it's in the jungle with your laner a good Yas counter. He can clickcast snare - and with Tabi/Randuins/Frozen (Don't need the Tabi, but they're great if you don't need to worry about other CC much) he has a bitch of a time doing much to your team, and especially to you. Katanas are not efficient for woodcutting.) {{champion:111}} (Can't do much to Yas on his own, but Yas can't windwall his ult, and your auto also snares. Use the hook on walls if need to catch a Yasuo, and you know he has wall up. Easy to fuck him up if your team is able to provide the damage and Yas isn't fed enough to shit on them.) {{champion:80}} (Yasuo can't fuck with you unless he has help. There is nothing a Yas can do to Pantheon unless Panth is already low or misplays. In lane, just spear him repeatedly, and stun him if he tries to go in, but not until after he autos once - if you can wait for it. Minion damage will help a lot, but you can just spend the lane using spears and disengaging with stun, and there's nothing he can do about it. You win lane, late game is a bit even, however, if he has minions.) {{champion:33}} (Not much to say, this is pretty obvious. Point-and-click taunt, built in thornmail, build a thornmail. Build a combination of Thornmail with Frozen/Randuin/Tabi, any of those added on will ruin him. {{champion:58}} (Pretty damn similar, you do way too much damage for Yasuo to handle early game, and you've got mobility, sustain, and an autoattack stun. Not to mention you can become tanky with your ult, and you're also resourceless. Yas isn't winning this lane without some serious ganks.) {{champion:223}} (Again, even as a top laner, you'll prolly have trouble with Yas 1v1 - you just don't have the damage output. But your CC is amazing, you can spend time relying on autos, and point-blank Q him, then eat him. If he walls the Q, eat him anyways, and wait for the short CD. Of course, you need a teammate to provide the actual damage most likely. Tabi/Frozen/Randuins are all good choices once again.) {{champion:72}} (If you can get in position, he can't stop your ult, so you burn a flash. You can also try to wait for him to wall - if your laner has ranged abilities - and get an easy stun off as well. Easy ganks, but you'll need your laner to finish the job unless you're ahead and building damage.) {{champion:154}} (Last one on the list, Zac is a nightmare for Yasuo if he ganks from the fog. The only thing Yas can do is go for an E - which will be farther towards enemy territory - or flash out. You CC him with no problem using E and Ult, and you have an easy to hit slow. Nothing can be walled, and you may even be able to 1v1 a Yasuo if you have adequate armor and a Rylai's.) There are some general tips too, like how to know when he's gonna want to engage - keeping an eye on the minions/champs he's E'd - knowing not to run from him towards your minions, and to never fight in a huge wave unless you're ez mode against him. There are more but I've typed a lot already. So, here are some champs. Take the first set (Skill matchups) with caution, they're in that category for a reason. If you misplay, or get outplayed, you will still lose fights easily with them.
: ***
Yea, Tankko is the worst thing to happen to him, made so many people hate him out of nowhere :c Boards are a fickle place.
: When you semi main Yasuo and look at the recent board posts http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/8/8c/Nope.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150828063553 {{item:3070}}
My mains are Ekko and Yasuo... It's not a great time to be on the boards right now.
: His kit on its own is actually rather well designed. But it's just.... too much, honestly. Take a look at other assassins; They got their poke spell, their mobility/gapcloser, their wave clear and so on. then there's Ekko who's got most of those things AS WELL as hard cc, an abundance of slows and other utility.
Biggest difference with Ekko compared to most any other assassin is his burst. Compared to the likes of Zed, Talon, Akali, he just doesn't hold up in raw damage, but he makes up for it in (relative) safety with his ultimate, and the CC of his W, but both have tradeoffs to use. If you ult to save yourself, then you just lost a gigantic part of your damage output, but if you use it for damage, you have to have some way to get out, if it wasn't just a 1v1. Not to mention his CC is unreliable, and, other than teamfights where everyone's standing in one spot, usually takes a fair amount of prediction or guesswork. But hell, it's so easy to dodge it if you know what you're doing, assuming Ekko isn't stunning you from a bush. Whenever I play against an Ekko, I generally find that I only get stunned in rare occasions, usually in chokepoints when I have no mobility. If they make him work out to not be strong as a tank, then he'll be back to being pretty damn healthy. I mean, his winrates mid are still fairly low, at 47%, and those haven't changed in a long time. And honestly, that's a fairly healthy winrate for him. As an assassin, he has a fair amount of risk and reward, but as a tank, they just don't show up, even if he has a low winrate, he's just a terribly annoying thing to go against. As you suggested, remove his passive slow, give him some more damage, or maybe a stronger W shield for AP (More duration poss?) to either lower his risk or up his reward (I'd prefer the latter).
: it's a matter of scale though. there are a quite few overloaded champs {{champion:412}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:238}} depending on where you draw the line, but some are MUCH more problematic than others and {{champion:245}} is at the very top as far as overloaded champs go.
Ekko's not even that bad if he's played the way he's MEANT to be played, with a high-risk, high-reward assassin, but they just don't have the gall to force him straight into assassin role. As everyone else has said, remove the passive slow, maybe even give him a little more damage or something to make his risk even more rewarding. You could also do something like increasing the time his W shield is out, by .5 seconds or something, just to make his risk a bit less riskier. Just something that makes it so tank/y Ekko isn't so fucking reliable.
: Because riot always pull the same excuse "it would ruin his thematics and we wouldn't want to do that" -proceeds to nerf irrelevant shit in his kit, then nerfs the main points, doesn't revert the others. But you'll also have some Ekko mains who scream out "he doesn't delete anyone until he gets some items!!1!1!" But that can be applied to EVERY SINGLE champion, Ekko doesn't deserve a free pass from this
Nah, all the mains in the Ekko club seem to want exactly this. Just remove the slow and give something small back to AP Ekko, maybe more damage scaling, movespeed (Movespeed scaling poss?). I hate that Ekko got shoved into the limelight with all this tank garbo, because beforehand he was just an underpicked assassin, that was run AP tank in jungle or top. Now that people have had to deal with his broken ass tank builds, they hate the champ much more than before.
XeroKimo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=PermabannedGaren,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNbEQzvp,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-30T20:40:16.744+0000) > But his burst is the most delayed of any assassin. {{champion:245}} ...... Ummmmm Hellloooooo!!!!...... tho we got them meta slaves with his tri force build, his burst is reliant on his passive, doing it on a lone immobile target is pretty easy, but against someone who's relatively mobile good luck hitting an auto after your E + Q, or hitting the second Q, tho the second way to burst is his ult which is at least you need to wait 4 WHOLE SECONDS!!!!!!
Nah he's fine. You can almost always get another auto off after your E + Q because of the Q slow, but usually you won't kill them with just that. Worst case, other than instantly getting caught by CC and dying, you can do your combo, most likely get your passive off, or get a flash/heal/etc and ult out. But Ekko's 1round burst is very reliant on either being fed or hitting your ult. You have payoffs in your damage do to having lots of safety where other assassins don't. Even Zed is generally in more danger than an Ekko who goes in hard for short periods of time, but Ekko is harder to get a kill with in a normal 'assassin' time frame.
: > [{quoted}](name=xXUkarozXx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2LQgQ90e,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-29T21:18:47.196+0000) > > The armor pen only applying on crits isn't a nerf at all, what yasuo doesn't have 100% crit by 20 minute mark anyway? bruiser yasuo. which is currently his highest win % build and not his intended playstile. this nerf specifically targets his crit less bruiser build. his crit build is sitting at 53% winrate, which is acceptable.
Tbh that's a much higher winrate than he SHOULD have, though atm, like PermabannedGaren said, it's inflated due to the strong ult AA bug. Once that's fixed, I'd want him to have a sub 50 WR, but no lower than, like, 47-48%. He should be like Azir in that sense.
: . . . thats actually stupid. i cant believe i actually am siding with yasuo on something. but that needs to be fixed
There's a lot of shit that goes through wall, it's buggy as heck. Most targeted abilities are finicky with it. Malph Q can go through it fully, damage and all, TF stun card will stun often through it, but no damage, and as mentioned, the Shiv one. There are other things, I'm sure, too. Worst part is that they apparently fixed it ages ago, but actually didn't, it was just in the notes.
Rioter Comments
: Do you think Taliyah might be a hybrid burst mage with her EW combo?
I'm not sure, I think she's more of a control mage than anything, cause when I think Burst Mage I think Veigar/Syndra/Annie, like stated above. If anything, she might be more of a battle mage, because she builds resists/hp a decent amount, and doesn't quite burst as hard as they do. Though I haven't gone against too many in a bit so maybe this has changed :P
  Rioter Comments
Belue (NA)
: Beach Babe Skins
Hell yea, Ekko super babe, I approve of these :P
Rioter Comments
: are you guys on crack? check his winrate from bronze-gold. he's insane and can delete anyone with rageblade/his r without too much of an issue, and it's mostly true damage
Are you? Since the patch hit, he dropped in winrate immensely, I'm not sure if you call 46% WR in Bronze/Silver and 47% in Gold 'insane'. He dropped an average of ~4% WR in these areas, and went down by ~5% across all ELOs. Not sure if you realize there was a patch or you're just annoyed by fighting one of them, but he's significantly weaker without devourer around. Source: http://www.lolking.net/champions/masteryi?chartType=winrate&region=na&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=bronze#statistics
: > [{quoted}](name=Reposer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mQ9VL2E,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2016-05-02T17:02:32.800+0000) > > No. Honestly what people don't seem to realize with Ekko is that his kit is completely reliant on his utility. He has nowhere near the burst of any other assassin in the game, unless he manages to land his ultimate, which isn't really able to be used to assassinate, due to the delay. He needs the slows and movespeed on his kit, otherwise he can't do damage, since his main source of damage is in his passive and auto attacks, both from the W passive and the attack speed he gets innate, he's more sustained damage once he gets his passive procced, unless, again, he lands his ultimate. But that's obviously difficult to do unless they enemy walks into it or you land a powerful stun. > > Removing literally every slow on his kit would devestate him, unless he got ridiculous damage buffs, which would honestly feel bad for both sides. The scaling idea is cool, though I think the slow on his Q should always be stronger than his passive. And as a note, the Q coming back does NOT slow at all, assuming you're getting hit by only the return hit. It only slows people hit during the time it's expanded, when hitting an enemy or max range. > > The W one could be feasible, but would be pretty odd overall, and would lower a lot of the skill needed to play Ekko, since it's one of the biggest things to rely on in his kit, both for counterplay and skill cap. Honestly they'd have to lower the stun at that point, or lower damage on his kit, for the ease of use it would provide, and overall it would probably be a bad decision. ekko is the third highest dps assassin the reason you see him do no damage is because of retard builds with zero ap full rotation is more than enough to 100-0 carrys only beaten by full ap evelyn and rengar
You can't honestly one-shot any carries if you're on equal terms, unless you hit your ultimate, which isn't easy to do if they're even somewhat mobile/flash/displace you etc etc. That or if it's endgame builds and they're too stupid to have built a defensive item like Merc Scim, Maw, or Steraks, and even then it usually takes an ignite to take them down if it's an in-and-out teamfight situation, where you have to ult out almost immediately to stay alive. He has good sustained damage, like I said, due to his W passive and innate auto speed, combined with the relatively low Q CD. But he has nowhere near the burst of most any other assassin, in an instant of damage. Talon, Zed, Evelynn, Rengar, Kha'Zix, Fizz, Kassadin, Katarina, they all outdamage Ekko by miles in their intended instances. And I'm talking about full AP builds here, yknow, the kinds that I generally run. If you're ahead then by all means you will absolutely shred the enemy team, and honestly I think Ekko's one of the best assassins for snowballing, because if you can play him properly it's much easier to pick someone with Ekko than it is with someone like Talon or Katarina, with safety to boot. But on an even playing field, assuming optimal builds, other assassins bring more damage to the table when they need to, you know, assassinate. Ekko plays closely to mage/assassin, and is similar to Diana in terms of kill-speed, doing tons of damage but needing to stick to the target to actually do it, which is counter intuitive to the general assassin role. His ult is generally taken out of the equation when talking about his damage output, because with it, he definitely turns the tide of almost any fight, and it gives a gigantic burst of damage unmatched by most other assassins. However, it's too unwieldy, and honestly the only times it's gonna be used is during a big teamfight (You're not assassinating there) where people are getting CC locked straight into it, or in a lane, where you're more likely to be able to position yourself for an ultimate during a skirmish. But with having a fairly low AoE, and being telegraphed to the enemies, if you get hit by it you're not paying attention or you're bad, and you deserve the damage. But remember, his ultimate is not just for damage, he desperately needs to hold onto it because of how risky his playstyle is, being his only true escape if he messes up an engage, thus removing any possibility for the damage later in a fight, until it's off cooldown.
: AP scaling utility sounds like a something for a utility mage (support). On an assassin/diver like Ekko, what he needs is a cut on the amount of utility he has. Remove the slow off of his passive. He already gets bonus movespeed. Lower the total slow on his Q, the 1st part at least. Or remove the slow on the 2nd part. Remove the slow from his W, but shorten the delay.
No. Honestly what people don't seem to realize with Ekko is that his kit is completely reliant on his utility. He has nowhere near the burst of any other assassin in the game, unless he manages to land his ultimate, which isn't really able to be used to assassinate, due to the delay. He needs the slows and movespeed on his kit, otherwise he can't do damage, since his main source of damage is in his passive and auto attacks, both from the W passive and the attack speed he gets innate, he's more sustained damage once he gets his passive procced, unless, again, he lands his ultimate. But that's obviously difficult to do unless they enemy walks into it or you land a powerful stun. Removing literally every slow on his kit would devestate him, unless he got ridiculous damage buffs, which would honestly feel bad for both sides. The scaling idea is cool, though I think the slow on his Q should always be stronger than his passive. And as a note, the Q coming back does NOT slow at all, assuming you're getting hit by only the return hit. It only slows people hit during the time it's expanded, when hitting an enemy or max range. The W one could be feasible, but would be pretty odd overall, and would lower a lot of the skill needed to play Ekko, since it's one of the biggest things to rely on in his kit, both for counterplay and skill cap. Honestly they'd have to lower the stun at that point, or lower damage on his kit, for the ease of use it would provide, and overall it would probably be a bad decision.
FoxPlays (NA)
: Well I mean it IS a devoured junglers...they are going to be focusing on getting stacks and worrying about getting counter junglered and getting skittles and getting dragon .-. Most Devourer junglers don't have really good early presence, except maybe Udyr, so don't expect much from them in the early game.
Honestly, Yi's one of the ones said to be unable to do much, but he's got such good pressure at level 3 onwards. As long as you have meditate and don't get counterganked, you can almost always get a flash or a kill if their laner is past river, or even if they're at the edge of river, if you don't need to save Q to dodge a CC or damage burst.
: When your main becomes flavor of the moth
{{champion:245}} went from unnoticed to the most hated champion in the game. Thankfully they're nerfing the dumb tank build, and buffing his AP next patch
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Reposer

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