: Lux VFX Update
In base form, basic attack missiles look really similar to Q. Considering their cast animations aren't that different (other than the direction she waves her wand, I guess) that could present some readability issues. It certainly confused me at first. Ult change is something I've been hoping to see for years, looks great.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
Hi Meddler: I'm curious to know how you feel about Quinn in regards to the "changing playstyles" point that you made. Lots of Quinn mains miss the old kit, but many also didn't like it at all and prefer the new kit. While it's been stated before (and for the record, I agree) that a full revert of Quinn wouldn't fix any of the problems she has, what do you think the best way is to approach a potential update for a champion like that? Do you try and please both parties and meet in the middle, or just build from scratch and try to come up with something better? Also, on the topic of Quinn, how do you feel Sanguine Blade will affect her? She definitely has the potential to abuse the item, and I'm fearful that if it's too strong she'll see a nerf before the item and once again be left without compensation when the item's nerfed, just like what happened with early season 7 lethality.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 30
With more updated animations coming, was there any more word on Quinn's? There's been radio silence for a while now. Also: > Twisted Fate - New no noots walk anim Lol
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 14
The updated Quinn animation seems to be the same that was shared originally. I like the direction, but I feel it's a little too "bouncy" for Quinn.
Meddler (NA)
: Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week.
He's going on an extended trick-or-treating spree. Bring us back some candy please.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
This year has been full of ups and downs for League (I'm sure you would agree) but I think it's really exciting that all champions except two (Annie and Vi) have been picked in pro play this season - and I don't think that would have been possible without all the shifts the game has seen this year. The game as a spectator sport, in my opinion, has become a lot less stale to watch and I'm excited to see what else pops up at worlds this year. Are there any champions that you were surprised to see in competitive play this year? Were there any champs that received changes/buffs with the intent of "this champion would be interesting in competitive play and we want to see more of them"?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
How much did you get to abuse the Ziggs strat in Odyssey before it was hotfixed, and how sad were you? {{item:3070}}
SerdecEU (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=2MKjsKEj,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-09-04T03:15:32.660+0000) > In regards to stun satisfaction, there are ways to have our cake and eat it too. Knockups that fade into longer stuns are one way (did you know that Nautilus R is reducible by tenacity? The knockup only lasts .5 seconds, the majority of the CC is actually a stun!). Another way is the Thresh and Nami Q approach. Both of those spells are stuns! They just "look" like knockups, but can be reduced and cleansed like normal. The cost of that approach is clarity. They work for Yasuo R but can also be Gangplank W'd? A tad confusing, but probably worth it in the long run to get the desired counterplay. The nami Q must be bugged than, because yasuo r works on it, even though it's not a knockup.
Nami's Q is actually a Suspension, which can be described in simple terms as an airborne stun. It shares this characteristic with Vel'Koz E and Yasuo R. All three of them can actually be cleansed like regular CC. [Here's the list on the wiki.](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Types_of_Crowd_Control#Suspension)
Ninetales (OCE)
: I appreciate the response, but it has left me wondering a few things. 1. Meddler initially announced that both him and Garen were being nerfed to target their effect on low ELO brackets, but now from your response it seems like you believe Yorick in higher ELO brackets to be overperforming also. Is this correct or am i misinterpreting? 2. If you want to take power off the Mist Walkers, then that is perfectly fine and expected - as i agree that a lot of players do not understand what they do and how strong they can be. My question for you then becomes have you considered the proposal of changing the ratio from Total Attack Damage to Bonus Attack Damage? If you were to raise their base attack damage to 15 and keep the current per level increments, then it would take a substantial amount of attack damage to even out with the current 8.16 Mist Walkers. Not only this, but it also becomes a heavy risk heavy reward situation where you build full damage at the cost of reduced tankiness - rather than having the best of both worlds for free. The number two reddit post outlines this idea heavily and detailed, in case you didn't get a chance to check it out. 3. If you're that content with an immediate nerf to his Mist Walkers, wouldn't it seem a bit more reasonable to go for an initial reduction of 2 per level instead of 1? Losing 6 damage at level 7 per Mist Walker sucks but it's not the end of the world and somewhat manageable until a better fix comes into it. I don't see why a champion with such a low playrate and such an unusual playstyle needs such **immediate **and **drastic **fixes. In fact, he's currently the 108th most picked champion according to OP.GG. 4. Please consider the impact that any change will also have on Jungle Yorick when considering changes. While you'd think we may be the minority, Jungle Yorick actually accounts for over 50% of Yorick games on the OCE server in Platinum and above ELO ranges and is slowly picking up more and more populartiy. Me myself am exclusively a Jungle Yorick player, having reached the tops of the ladder on multiple servers and the proposed changes will effectively gut any opportunity i have to compete with meta junglers around levels 6-9 which are supposed to be one of my strongest points. 5. One thing I would like information on is Yorick's win-rate at the time of nerfing his Mist Walkers way back in patch 7.13. The damage was reduced by half at this point in time, which then left his win rate high and requiring further nerf on the Mist Walkers at a later stage. Is it possible that the Mist Walkers are not actually a primary factor that is dictating his win-rate in lower ELO brackets? For example, what happens if your changes are implemented to live and yet his winrate stays at around 55% in low ELO? At the end of the day, I really appreciate you and Meddler being vocal with us the community with whatever changes you intend to go through with Yorick. We all want the same thing after all. Thanks for your attention.
I just wanted to drop by and say I really appreciate when people bring up quality discussions and points like this, I've done the same thing multiple times for my champions and some of them have actually resulted in really good things. Hopefully this is one of those too.
: well if their counters are already reasonably good but they are just too good, it makes much more sense to nerf the OP champs than to start an arms race. IE one of the best counters to Yorick is renekton, but if you buffed renekton instead of nerfing Yorick you'd have a renekton who's OP and a Yorick who's still OP vs anyone who didn't pick renekton. Or you could just nerf the thing that's OP and things balance out a lot better.
Yeah, I get that. The reality is that it'll never be perfect. I guess if I had to be more specific with the question, it would end up as "Quinn got a second direct nerf as well as rune nerfs, while at the same time many tanks received buffs. Why not wait to see how the tank changes (and other changes around the game) impact her, since most of her strength comes from those parts of the game being weaker, instead of hitting her with direct nerfs two patches in a row?" Of course, I also understand that she is problematic when strong... it goes back to my above point that unfortunately it'll never be perfect.
Meddler (NA)
: If either of them ends up absolutely terrible in high MMR we'll look at them for potential follow up buffs. Having said that both have been performing really well even in high MMR recently, so even there we've got some room to cut.
I guess I'll piggyback off this question, because I'm really interested to hear your perspective on it. I'm not trying to call the balance team (or you) out for anything, but I want to talk about the argument of nerfing strong champions vs. buffing the things that do well against them. It's a topic I'm genuinely interested in. I feel Garen and Yorick share at least one characteristic with Quinn, a champion I'm much more familiar with: all three of them are, generally, below average in popularity. Of course, we've seen all three of them performing very highly at different points this season - but I guess I'm curious as to why those champions are nerfed (in Quinn's case, multiple times) instead of trying to make changes in other areas of the game, like buffing champions that normally serve as a counterpick that may be weak. I'm not trying to protest the nerfs. In particular, (again, because I'm more familiar with her), Quinn _did_ need a nerf. And, I understand that if something changes and a champion's too strong with it, then nerfs are the way to go. (The addition of Stormrazor is a perfect example of this for Quinn.) But if she needed it, then she's been needing it since 8.6, when her last set of changes came. Since that patch, the game has drastically shifted around her. Many of the inhibitors that previously kept Quinn from being so successful became weaker as a result of huge changes in midseason. Her counters began to fall out of favor in top lane, burst damage was more and more frequent (much of which was due to her abusing Stormrazor so well), tanks were a rare sight outside of maybe Dr. Mundo, and crit marksmen were just bad. And as a result, she shot up from her post-8.6 state of "really good, but flying under the radar" to "best in the game and must be banned" status. And I think the same general concept applies to Garen and Yorick as well - Wukong's another one that's had attention recently. They're all four champions who generally don't have huge player bases, and if they're dominating the game, I feel it's likely less due to the champion's individual power and more due to the things that are good against the champion not being very good. Last patch (again, going back to Quinn specifically because I know her better) Quinn got her second nerf in a row. Her nerf in 8.15 was expected and quite fair honestly. But her nerf in 8.16, while appropriate when you look at a snapshot of her state and the state of the game *right now*, was also compounded by nerfs to many of her most common runes *and* buffs to tanks and other marksmen that build crit. While she's taken a significant hit in the winrate department, she's still doing okay for now. But I'd be lying if didn't say I was worried that when the meta shifts, when tanks become a staple of top lane again, and now that crit marksmen are finally beginning to return to form, Quinn will be left weak and unable to compete as a result of all the stacked nerfs she received, and will be forgotten for months as it historically seems that she often is. So I guess a TL;DR is I'm asking what you think about buffing things that counter strong, but generally unpopular-when-balanced champions like Quinn and Wukong, instead of nerfing them when they're largely strong because of the current game state?
Glaedr (NA)
: Slower, more floaty animations just seem to look much better even if it's not really natural when comparing it to walking or running around in real life. {{champion:136}} Not sure if it really counts, but for how simple it is I like how he slowly sways around and the little twirl he does occasionally is a nice touch. Not really related to the walk animation itself, but I also like the tail rig you guys did and how that follows you more realistically when you change direction. {{champion:31}} Champion in obvious need of a full VGU, but his age really shows in his wacky animations. If you look specifically at his goofy walk I see what you guys were going for since he grows in size and he has this big godzilla stature so the animation kinda fits him when it slows down at max size, but when he's smaller just looking at his claws swinging back and forth wildly is pretty funny. On top of that, he has no sprinting animation, so on a champ that really wants speedup items to get in range, the animation is that much worse. Would be pretty cool if he got an update on the animation and maybe slightly different based on size.
Fun fact, Aurelion's Tail tech is also hooked up to Shyvana's hair, Lissandra's hair, Cassiopeia's tail and Zoe's hair.
RiotLamz (NA)
: Just base runs for now. The skins team polish up and create vastly improved runs when they can for some new skins
Yeah, my mentioning of PROJECT: Ashe is just because she happens to be my favorite. :) I hope that you guys find a way to make Quinn's run look a little less awkward! All of her skins use the same run animation, (at least I believe they do) so a change to her base run animation would apply to the others too, right?
RiotLamz (NA)
: Favorite/least favorite Running animation in League
Are we talking about skins, too? If so, I think PROJECT: Ashe has to have my favorite running animation in League, specifically when she's kiting (and I know this has a lot to do with her AA animation as well.) But I have trouble playing other Ashe skins because PROJECT just seriously feels like the most satisfying skin in the game to play. As a longtime Quinn main and a staff member of the Quinn Mains Discord, I agree entirely with your sentiment that Quinn's walking and running animations feel bad and very rigid. I'm not really sure of terms to use, but in Quinn's current walk/run animation, she's always got both hands on her crossbow and I think that really contributes to how she feels rigid. She's not really moving her arms and there's just not much expression. When viewed directly from the side, it looks like the goal was to give her that "bird" feel (which actually after looking at it, the colors on her classic model and the animation itself does a really great job of that) but when viewed from the game's camera angle a lot of that is lost. I'm not sure of whether it's in the scope of this project, but I feel like freeing up her right hand would open up a lot of possibilities. Maybe she carries her crossbow over her shoulder (like a baseball player resting the bat on his shoulder when approaching the plate) or holds it loosely in just one hand? Not sure how that would be able to transition into her idle and basic attack animations, though - I'm not an animator! Something like her hasted running animation, where her right hand is free... but in that animation, her right hand doesn't do anything, it's just trailing behind the rest of her body which again feels rigid and weird. I guess basically what I think is that freeing up her hands from just "carry the crossbow" duty might help make her walking animation feel like it has more character. Thanks for looking into showing our girl some love <3 {{champion:133}}
: > I do believe that runes should be brought back in some form for defensive, attack, etc stats as well as having the masteries. maybe more info on that soontm
I really do hope so! As a Vel'Koz player, the change to electrocute sounds nice, but I haven't been running it all season because in order to get it you have to sacrifice some really, *really* key options in the sorcery tree. That's been one of my biggest annoyances since Runes Reforged went live. Personally I would hope for some of the flexibility to come back - i.e. before, I could choose between TLD and Deathfire Touch and both offered valuable mastery paths. Now I choose Comet 99% of the time because as much as I _want_ Electrocute, taking it forces me to give up too much from sorcery to be worth it.
Meddler (NA)
: There should be some Quinn nerfs hitting PBE today. We're hitting base Armor (28 instead of 32) and starting passive damage (10 instead of 15) to reduce how well she trades/harasses in lane.
Was expecting these to probably pop up eventually. I just posted a big comment on the thread on /r/leagueoflegends about her actually. I think this is a reasonable change and hopefully brings her back to a healthier level. Thanks for not nerfing her into the ground like she's been before.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 18
Not really a question, but just a note that I'm really happy you guys went with a simple buff for Vel'Koz, it was all he really needed and I think it will help him just enough.
Meddler (NA)
: Irelia - might have hit her too hard. Believe the team's talking about possible small buffs, though not sure on details yet or timing. Some thoughts on TP in a comment elsewhere in this thread: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/5RA7OEcm-quick-gameplay-thoughts-july-6?sort_type=best&comment=00040000
I'm actually curious as to how this ends up playing out. In a situation like this do you think it's fine to just return a little bit of the power that was taken, or add power elsewhere? I suppose that depends on the context of the change and whether or not it's just going to pose the same problem again. In a case like Irelia, where she seems to be filling a niche many people didn't expect (as a mid laner and occasionally a bottom lane bruiser) I'm curious if that changes the landscape of what changes are in consideration for her.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 29
Regarding tooltips, in my few games of Aatrox so far I have been extremely annoyed at having to hold shift to view specifics. I understand the approach and what it's aiming to do, and I think simplifying things for newer/casual players is always good. But _please_ allow players to toggle full tooltips as always-on if you plan on doing this across all champions! On to another question, I've been hoping to see some mage stuff on PBE this cycle after you mentioned it previously, but so far we've only seen the Fizz changes. Since this is a longer patch cycle, will mage changes just be going to PBE a little later into it, or are they more likely to come in 8.15? Hoping for a ctrl+f of "Vel'Koz" to finally show something on S@20 in the near future! :)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 11
Thoughts on Vel'Koz? I know I've asked a few times now, but he's continued to struggle this patch and feels weaker than ever in the early/mid stages of the game.
Meddler (NA)
: Happy Friday! Mana changes seem to have landed as intended so far (power neutral overall, with strength shifted about a bit). That seems to include mages playing in the support position, which is a bit of a surprise. We'd been half expecting to have to follow up on them, given they weren't using DRing to being with, but did get the other buffs. The exception to power neutral, who we're monitoring, are a few mages who have lost some noticeable power. They're all the ones who can dump a lot of mana repeatedly (Anivia, Cass, Malz, plus maybe one or two more). Possible item builds adapt to compensate and those champs recover, also possible we might need to do something for some of them.
I was expecting them to be quite bad, to be honest (for Vel'Koz in particular) but after playing a few games I think I share your opinion. Seem to be more of a power shift than a power reduction like I was fearing, in fact, they actually feel a bit better than I had expected. Perhaps that served as the little bump I was hoping Vel'Koz would get - his midgame feels like it has a bit of the oomph back that it's lacked for a few patches. I still think he feels a bit meh right now but with an assassin meta coming I suppose I should have expected that. Cheers, thanks for the reply!
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 4
Happy Friday dude. Thoughts on how the mana changes have panned out so far? Also, what are your thoughts on Vel'Koz in mid?
: I probably just missed it, but I haven't heard anything about Zoe recently and every Zoe I've seen in-game (not that many to be honest) has looked like she's underperforming. Do you think she is in a good spot after her changes? Do you consider giving her a nudge towards her initial playstyle, now that people learned how to play against her?
I'm not the one you're asking, but I think Zoe's actually in a great spot. She can still do crazy damage, but it requires a bit more skill expression from the Zoe player to make her work extremely well, and I think that's good.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 2
Any thoughts on Vel'Koz and how the new mana changes will affect him in mid lane? He's felt pretty weak for a few patches as a result of nerfs to Archangel's Staff and the loss of old Liandry's, and the meta shifting to favor assassins. In the past, he was able to do okay in unfavorable metas if you knew how to make him work. But the combination of changes and meta shifts we've seen have left it feeling like this time he's unable to keep up and needs some help.
Adalvar (EUW)
: Did you manage to resume work on Lissandra or is that been put on hold again? This is a heavily asked topic for awhile so if you could throw us a bone here...
I don't remember exactly where, but I think it was mentioned that Liss work has been put on ice (heh) for a bit longer.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 27
Posted this the other day, but I got there a little late. Any thoughts on Vel'Koz in mid lane? As a support he still seems to be doing okay, but in mid I think he's felt lackluster for a few patches now, and other Vel'Koz players agree. I'm worried about the upcoming mana changes hurting him even more. While the new AP items seemed good for him at face value, the loss of the old Liandry's means the midgame power spike that he used to have is now either much weaker or just not there entirely. The new items offer more flexibility, but it feels like he lost a lot of damage and overall power due to that. In the past, Vel'Koz has always remained relatively fine when the meta shifted out of his favor, and you could usually make it work. However, given that he's already hurting in the first place, it feels like this time he can't keep up.
: Hey Meddler, any thoughts on the current state of Vel'koz? He feels very weak right now and I feel that with the changes coming up next patch he is only going to be worse.
Hoping to hear something as well. As a support he still seems to be doing okay, but in mid I think he's felt lackluster for a few patches now. I'm worried about the upcoming mana changes hurting him even more. While the new AP items seemed good for him at face value, the loss of the old Liandry's means the midgame power spike that he used to have is now either much weaker or just not there entirely. The new items offer more flexibility, but it feels like he lost a lot of damage and overall power due to that. In the past, Vel'Koz has always remained relatively fine when the meta shifted out of his favor, and you could usually make it work. However, given that he's already hurting in the first place, it feels like this time he can't keep up.
Vanjie (NA)
: Meddler, I am really not trying to be that one but I feel like I have to at this point. I don't understand how you guys can continue to work on champions that the community do not want worked on. You know exactly what champions need a ton of work and you know what needs to be worked on. Why, in 2018, are you guys till prioritizing work on Ahri, Ryze, Lux, Jinx, Jhin, Ezreal and all these other champions when you are aware that champions like Karma, Lissandra, Morde, Skarner, Malzahar and many others are virtually ignored? These are champions who are, per you, not slated for a VGU anytime soon and you are well aware of all of their problems on a thematic, kit, and art level. What exactly have you and any other Developer done about this? You give another rework to Ryze on top of 2 VGU, you spend almost a year on Lux buffing multiple parts of her kit, and you spend 3 patch cycles on Ahri. {{champion:43}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:72}} The mains and players have spoken. They want change, they want work done, and they are tired of being ignored. I don't understand how the above champions can go ignored for years and you prioritize work on the same champions every year. I am disgusted that in 6 years I still have to fight for Karma to receive work done on her all the way from kit changes, art changes and lore changes. I am very upset to see Morde mains still plea for work to be done on him because you ruined his identity and he still has all those bugs. It's insulting to see Ahri receive all these changes to non-interactive parts of her kit but you cannot give Lissandra a decent passive that has been requested for almost a year now. Don't get me started on Skarner. If you are aware of all these threads, comments, pleas, and input about the above champions, why are the same champions year after year receiving work? You want receipts? Karma - https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/m3rjfjmX-riot-another-ryze-rework-but-zero-work-on-karma-lissandra-skarner-and-morde https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AO26O9Zp-riot-developers-in-hindsight-we-shouldve-listened-to-karma-mains https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2ezJ4OML-riot-developers-karma-is-solidified-as-nothing Lissandra - https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/search?query=lissandra&application_id=PEr1qIcT&created_from=now-1w&content_type=discussion Morde - https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/kL0E0V7A-riot-honestly-canshould-we-help-you-with-things-like-these --------------- I mean SERIOUSLY Meddler? That is just a general search on the boards and the threads that I created about Karma. Look at all the comments, likes, and views. This is just recently to. Why is Ahri, Ryze and Lux being prioritized for all of this work when you are very aware of what actually needs to be worked on? Again, I am not going to go into exactly what needs to be worked on for Karma, Lissandra, Morde, Skarner, Malzahar and all of the other champions that are ignored by you and the entire Development team. You know what they need at this point. YOU AND YOUR DEVELOPERS NEED TO DO YOUR JOB AND DO IT BETTER. I mean it is so insulting to see a thread explaining why you are working on Ryze again and saying it isn't a rework, but it is. You cannot be bothered to do that for any other champion for the past couple years but it always seems like Ahri gets a comment about her balance and work being done on her. Lux gets a comment. Ezreal gets something. Jhin gets something. {{champion:43}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:72}} Don't make us wait for more months and years for obvious work you are blatantly ignoring at this point. It is insulting.
I'm not Meddler, but I can give you an answer. I'm just going to use Quinn as an example because I'm more familiar with her, and she arguably fits in the same category as the champions you're listing. I've been a Quinn player since before her rework. Personally, I dislike new Quinn. There are many in the Quinn Mains community that share the same opinion. If I could have my way, I'd want a full VGU for her tomorrow with melee form Valor back. The reason that Quinn hasn't had a full-scale VGU put into production, along with Mordekaiser, Skarner and others like Fiddlesticks and Rammus is because the idea isn't there right now. Riot's list of reworks isn't in a concrete order. They likely throw around ideas for _all_ the champions on their "needs a VGU" list at the same time. I don't remember which Rioter specifically stated it, but there were something like 3 completely different Urgot reworks scrapped over the last few years. They get their ideas, then they put them into preliminary testing. I'll use Quinn as an example again. Here are the questions I'd ask of myself and (if I was the lead designer of Quinn's eventual VGU) what I would ask my team working on her: * Does it expand on Quinn's theme while preserving her core feel and character? * Does it offer unique qualities from other champions in the game? * Does it provide a long-term solution to the issues currently present in Quinn's kit? If the answer to most of those questions is "no" or "not really", they may scrap the entire thing and recycle some of the ideas on future releases/reworks. An example would be the Urgot reworks that were scrapped. In the case of Quinn, Riot's even stated that she is in the higher part of the list for a VGU. Quinn has a lot of character potential, but right now, they're working on other projects and don't have a solid foundation for a Quinn VGU in place. As a result, they can look to make changes to the current version of the champion aimed at a more short-term time frame, and in Quinn's case, her recent batch of QoL buffs came as a result of this. RiotXenogenic approached the community with some proposed changes, and did an excellent job of weighing our feedback. It's not the Quinn VGU I *eventually* want to see, but I've accepted that will come with time. The answer to those questions has to be a "yes." If after testing one part isn't working out, they may go back to the drawing board and try to figure that specific part out. We saw this in the behind the scenes video of Irelia's development - the kit was mostly done, but the W was still taking shape. They re-tuned and refined the W until they felt it served a proper place in both her kit and her concept. With the reworks released in the past year or so (Urgot, Evelynn, Swain, and Irelia) it's likely those names were being tossed around at the same time as newer reworks/updates that are now well into production or have just started rolling. Who knows, there could even be an in-progress Nunu update that's been in the works since 2015, but they could never get it right until now, and finally gave it the green light. I would find it extremely difficult to believe that Riot hasn't explored and potentially even tested a few Mordekaiser reworks behind the scenes.
: > [{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6G472GTv,comment-id=006c000100000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T19:08:17.461+0000) > > Has there been any talk about Quinn’s ult visuals by any chance? It’s a non-gameplay concern, but I’d love to known if you guys have seen our complaints about it or if you just disagree with changing it/don’t have the scope at the moment to revert it back to the pre-rework version We've been reading the feedback and seen the complaints, but modifying it is out of scope for this project, unfortunately. We have a lot of projects in flight and these Quinn changes are something we could do without negatively impacting them as they travel down the path to shipping.
> projects in flight Oh god now I'm gonna spend the next 3 months arguing with myself about if this phrase has an underlying meaning, why have you done this to me...
: Edited to add the following updates for (R) Behind Enemy Lines * Fixed a bug causing Behind Enemy Lines to immediately end when used while attacking a turret * Fixed a bug that would cause movement orders to be removed or ignored while casting Behind Enemy Lines * Returning to the fountain now automatically casts Behind Enemy Lines if it has been learned
Thanks for the update! I've had multiple people ask me on Discord today about getting our PBE tester role and we're all super excited to try out the changes! {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
: Quinn Changes Coming Soon - Strike from the Sky!
Wow. I'm really excited for this. Regardless of how high the impact of these changes is, thanks a lot for giving Quinn some attention. Her community really appreciates it.
Meddler (NA)
: Thanks for the notes, I did indeed miss these in the previous post. I suspect we'll be able to do the minion+ult stuff at the least at some point, I'll pass your post on to a couple of folks with more Quinn familiarity than myself too to see what they think.
I just wanna chime in as a staff member on the Quinn Mains Discord and say that myself and many members of our community really appreciate the context and info you've given us over the past few days. It's sparked a lot of discussion and it's been great to see.
Meddler (NA)
: Update on the channel while moving - that requires building new cast animations, so it's not a quick or small task. Looking at how minion damage interacts with the ult on the other hand could give a lot of value still and is much quicker to do, will investigate possibilities there.
Thanks for looking into it. I know that this thread is a few days old now, but just out of curiosity - when less-popular champions come up with the gameplay team (Quinn and Volibear recently) do you guys typically look towards players of those champions that you have in the office for input? Like a, "Oh, [insert person here] plays Volibear, let's ask them for some opinions." Or does the gameplay team sit down, grind out some games and look at their options? That's something that's always interested me.
: Quinn is a pretty toxic champion to play against who's in a good spot right now in terms of strenght, despite the complaints. Bringing all this attention to your champion is gonna backfire hard if you ask me. A ranged adc assassin with crazy roaming.. yeah.. that rework is gonna be dissapointing for a lot of you lol.
You're right on one front - I agree that despite all the complaints (some even coming from me) Quinn is in fact in a decent spot. She's a bit weak - sure - but there have been statistically weaker champions in League that have been forgotten far longer than Quinn. However: > A ranged adc assassin with crazy roaming.. yeah.. that rework is gonna be dissapointing for a lot of you lol. Quinn's last rework _was_ disappointing for me. Immensely disappointing, in fact. I have far less fun playing Quinn now than I did playing OG Quinn - to be honest, I mostly play her out of loyalty to the character. The reason we're bringing attention to her is because we know she has a ton of potential. Riot tried something with the last rework - the mobility gimmick - and it hasn't really panned out. I'm confident that if they really take a good look at Quinn, they can make something amazing with her.
: I'm not a common quinn player, but at least on a thematic level, having her bird visible all of the time might make the parts of her kit that interact with it more apparent. She actually uses Valor quite a lot, but the longest they stay on screen is when it's being a taxi. I imagine that would be a lot of animation work, which might not pay off short-term, but if you're thinking of larger work it might be something to consider. Especially now that the other bird-companion champion doesn't have theirs anymore.
Honestly, as someone who played old Quinn and _really_ misses Valor, I think her ultimate would feel much better if it was just Valor again, even if it functioned the same as it does right now. No changes to the ability, just make it Valor again. You don't have to bring Valor's melee abilities back, you don't have to change the damage to what it used to be. But having Valor actually carry Quinn still feels incredibly derpy and clunky, even 2 years after the rework. Just have Quinn and Valor swap places when the ability's cast (or the channel's completed) and when you break the ult (by entering combat or whatever) just have Valor fly back up to the sky.
Gwenavere (EUW)
: This is the issue which concerns me as well. I have always seen Quinn as an assassin first and a marksman second, and I think this has been a defensible view of the champion in both her pre- and post-rework states. I would hate to see Quinn pushed in a direction that removed the assassin play style, it would probably be enough to make me drop the champion. Quinn mains are, of course, split on this issue. Some people prefer the new utility ultimate, others prefer the old combat ultimate (although based on our recent survey it looks like this preference tends to track with when you started playing Quinn). People play her as an assassin, a fighter, and a marksman in all 3 lanes and the jungle. She's in this sense one of the most diverse champions in the game, but this obviously presents its own balance challenges (buffs to Quinn mid will push her over the top in top lane, etc). I'm not sure there's an easy answer here and I doubt that a rework could really preserve each of her current play styles; it would be a shame to fully lose either assassination or marksman potential, though. Both have been a part of her kit from the beginning.
I agree with both of these. I've always seen Quinn as an assassin or skirmisher as opposed to a traditional marksman. This has held true pre-rework and post-rework. That's also true to me even though the rework did remove Tag Team, which I personally viewed as a large part of her identity as an assassin. I understand we're not likely to get Tag Team back, and while that's a bummer to me personally, I completely understand why. However, I would be concerned if it looked like Quinn was going to be pushed even more toward the role of a traditional marksman - that was essentially the goal of her rework, and I think it's fallen flat, presenting her with many issues as a result while not really addressing the issues she already had. As a lover of the champion, I'm really excited to at least hear _something_. Some people think our community's posts on Reddit and here on the boards are just us yelling at a walls, but I don't think that's the case, even if we don't get a response on a lot of them. Even though it's a long way off, I'm excited. And when it does come time for Quinn to enter the spotlight I have faith that you guys will give her the attention she deserves and make something great out of all the potential she has.
: is it possible that both her playrate and winrate have fallen due to an absence of champs she has favorable lanes against, or am I dumb and have seen so little of her in the first place that I dont see any bad matchups? no flame intended, just genuinely curious
Nah, you're not dumb, but it's mainly the second reason. She's unpopular regardless of how the meta looks - the only time she gets a spike in playrate or winrate is when they change lethality. Quinn was once - by far - my favorite champion. The rework hurt that quite a bit, but I was still able to have fun playing her. But as time has passed, she's become more unsatisfying to play with every passing patch, and I don't even enjoy playing her in normals any more.
Lárxene (NA)
: Quinn is the least played champion in the game by a wide margin. Are there seriously no talks of a minor gameplay update or a partial revert among Riot? How is this fine?
I don't think she's quite the lowest - I'm sure Volibear, Mordekaiser, and maybe even Ivern share a similar playrate - but you are right that Quinn's not doing too hot right now. Unfortunately, Quinn's a bit of a tricky one in this regard. Her entire playstyle was changed by her update - however, unlike Rengar, Kog'Maw and LeBlanc, Quinn's shift in playstyle and identity came from the changes not to her whole kit, but the changes to a single ability. {{champion:96}} changes were to mostly the way his W worked, but the rest of his kit was tweaked and adjusted accordingly. However, reverting Kog'Maw didn't change his identity as an immobile, on-hit stacking bot lane hypercarry, so it was largely okay for him to be reverted. {{champion:7}} saw changes to nearly all of her abilities, as well as a totally new passive and a completely new R. {{champion:107}} got an entirely new Q, updates on W and his ultimate was completely retooled. {{champion:133}} is a different issue - her R was the only ability that was changed in a major way, but her R was also the ability that served as her identity. Of course, she got adjustments to Q as well, but Tag Team was such a polarizing ability that a revert, or even a partial revert, _has_ to focus on her R and will make a _major_ impact on her current playstyle and playerbase. I as a player would love a revert, but when you look at the long-term, simply reverting R doesn't really solve any of her problems. She needs changes, but instead of receiving changes soon that likely won't solve all her problems, I would rather receive changes later down the line that have been planned for a long time and are going to provide a long-term solution to her problems.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 2
With the trend of champions who received class-level updates being partially reverted (specifically {{champion:107}}, {{champion:96}}, {{champion:7}}) what are your thoughts on similar explorations for {{champion:133}}? Personally, I preferred old Quinn; however, as a staff member of the Quinn Discord server, I know many players would be unhappy with simply a change in that direction.
Reav3 (NA)
: Shes pretty close to tier 1. She will likely end up on that list soon
I'm so ecstatic to hear this! Thanks for the update. I know it will be a while, but I can't wait!
ChuShoe (NA)
: Hey guys, I just wanted to chime in and say that I have never played Quinn ONCE and I think about her a lot. She's very interesting to me personally. After all, where would Demacia be if she joined Noxus?
I'm also a big lore junkie, and while a lot of people are going to see that as a stupid question, I think it's extremely interesting. Quinn's a character with a _lot_ of potential in terms of her lore. I'd love to see Riot expand on it.
: Holy crap, this post is both evocative and uncontroversial, well done! +1 I too hope for more context on Quinn, and I agree with you that it was really fun to play as Valor in her pre-rework form.
Thanks! My hope is just that Riot decides to take a look at her and give her some love. I feel she deserves it. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
: These are the type of posts I want to see. Thank you. Hope you hear from Riot, I think her current kit needs some changes certainly, as number changes don't seem to be working. Hope you Quinn mains can get a bit of that old kit feeling back too.
Thanks! My goal with this post wasn't "rework Quinn pls she sucks" or a "fk you Riot" thread, I just wanna get _some_ sort of discussion going because I think she deserves better. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
Mob Piru (NA)
: idk what other adc can roam around the map and split push like she does. Theres no adc that can actually out duel her if u land the blind sooooooo........ idk wtf any of u are talking about.
Read back through the post - I'm not complaining about Quinn being weak or bad - in fact, while she's a bit weak, I think that she's totally playable right now. But that's not what this thread is about. Quinn has been kind of ignored by Riot both in terms of her gameplay and her thematic for quite a long time now. The way her kit is designed presents an issue where she's almost always going to be too strong or quite weak, and a lot of those times (lethality as an example) it's not even as a result of Quinn being directly changed - it's just a result of the way she's designed. She's been out of the spotlight for long enough that I feel she deserves a good look by Riot, and I think she has a ton of potential for them to work with.
Ceridran (NA)
: I joined shortly before Quinn's release, so she's always been dear to me. The 2016 update was a great pleasure to me as it solidified her playstyle. She's versatile due to her design, able to occupy 4 of 5 positions; quick on her feet as she is, she excels at skirmishing, pursuit, and to some extent, vision control. The reason the changes came to shock many is that Valor's presence was made inactive. Tag Team was no good and I hope it never returns, but it must be understood that the reason people remember it fondly because it gave Valor a greater active presence than he has today; the player actually controlled Valor. I do think Quinn needs another rework for the sake of Valor, but I don't want him to operate like he did before. Quinn and Valor are a duo, not a tag team; my favorite thing about this duo is that they're scouts behind enemy lines, and with superior mobility and vision, they provide valuable information to their team. Rather than operate as a ground unit, I'd like to see Valor's potential as an air support unit emphasized with this in mind. I want to be able to send Valor out on all sorts of air missions. Maintaining vision in a select area, divebombing, revealing stealth wards/picking off fresh wards, etc. Of course, being preoccupied means Quinn loses some of the fighting potential she would have by having Valor near and ready. Micromanaging Valor in the sky while simultaneously working on the ground as Quinn should help the player feel like he isn't a prop.
> Tag Team was no good and I hope it never returns, but it must be understood that the reason people remember it fondly because it gave Valor a greater active presence than he has today; the player actually controlled Valor. This is the biggest problem that I feel any Quinn changes would face. It's no secret that was a big fan of Tag Team, but I'm glad you've voiced that you weren't a fan of it - it's a catalyst for more discussion, and differing opinions and viewpoints are only going to make the discussion more productive. While I disagree about its overall usefulness (I saw it as a really unique assassination ability) I know so many people that prefer Quinn's current iteration instead of pre-rework Quinn. I already lost the Quinn I loved due to a rework. I wouldn't want the same thing to happen to more people, even if I personally liked the changes. As much as I personally would love a revert to pre-5.22 Quinn, it's definitely not the answer. Quinn needs changes to push her _forward_, and with what we've heard about Riot's stance on Quinn (nothing) it looks like it's up to the community to start the discussion.
: {{champion:106}} too http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics
Yup, Volibear too. Riot's actually looking at him at the moment.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 26
Hey Meddler. Any thoughts on Quinn? There's actually been a bit of discussion about her lately, and she's fallen into the same category as Volibear in op.gg's "not enough stats for this champion" camp.
Riot JxE (NA)
: Update on Fps Issues in 7.22 and 7.23
I'm actually doing a system upgrade this weekend with a new CPU, motherboard and RAM. Black Friday got me guys. I'll keep an eye on my frames throughout this week and try to make a note of any situations where they drop and what's happening on screen (big ass teamfight, certain champions, etc.) and see if after the upgrade I notice an improvement while on the same (or better) settings. For me, it's actually gotten a bit better this patch, but the issues always seemed to be related game time. The longer the game time, the lower my FPS went. Of course there's more going on as the game progresses, but after about 45 minutes my FPS rarely went above 60. **Current** system specs: (all stock speeds btw) AMD FX-8320 1x8GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM Sapphire R9 380 Nitro (4GB vRAM) This weekend I'm throwing in a Ryzen 5 1600 and 8GB of DDR4 at 3000MHz, so I'll see if I can notice any improvements after the fact in situations where I was having issues before. If there's an improvement, that could mean my issues were memory or CPU related. Not likely, but with this kind of stuff you never know. I'm just thankful you guys are looking into this!
Everlark (NA)
: Miss Fortune is one of those champions that doesn't seem to have a great set of rune choices. I'll try to outline the difficulties. Precision is the usual primary tree for most marksmen, but Miss Fortune is less of a traditional crit carry than her peers. Precision has a ton of attack speed built into it and barely any %damage or flat AD (the only example of the latter being Press The Attack, which conflicts with her tendency to switch targets for Love Tap). This path provides her with relatively little benefit and is especially bad for Lethality MF. Sorcery is one of the other choices for a primary damage path. Sorcery has some pretty cool options in the smaller runes, but all of the keystones perform terribly on her both in lane and out of it. Summon Aerie is weak and she can't use the shield aspect at all. Arcane Comet is incredibly unreliable with her more interactive Q-max laning phase, and her E-max laning phase is weak, boring, uninteractive, and still can't even make Comet land reliably. Phase Rush is probably the best option here, but her playstyle usually relies more on burst or good teamfight setup instead of brute-forcing people down in an extended chase. It mostly helps her kite better. That leaves Domination, which probably has the best keystones options for her right now. Dark Harvest is a strong snowballing/scaling option and Electrocute gives more reliable early power. Predator is probably the worst of the three on her but still gives her a decent assassination option. However, the last two rune slots are lacklustre. Cheap Shot and Taste of Blood are decent options, but Cheap Shot can't really be used in lane without using E (same problems as Comet) or in a gank/all-in, where it offers little damage. Taste Of Blood is probably her best bet, but not as an aggressive option. However, Sudden Impact's Lethality being locked behind a dash/blink/stealth kind of feels insulting. Her fellow dashless Lethality marksmen (Varus, Jhin) both make better use of Precision as a primary path while Lucian can access Sudden Impact without burning Flash. The Bounty Hunter rune slot also offers her very little: all of her spellvamp-able spells are AoE (may be a bug since her Q is apparently supposed to proc spellvamp according the wiki, but doesn't heal her at all with this rune last I checked), she typically doesn't buy many impactful item actives (Youmuu's is probably the best use of Ingenious Hunter), and additional out-of-combat movespeed is weak because Strut already provides her with so much. Resolve (rightfully) offers very little, and Inspiration is cool but relatively ineffective because her average autoattack range makes her a mediocre user of Hextech Freezeray, meaning it doesn't make up for the lack of damage in the rest of the path. Secondary trees tend to be fine because Sorcery, Precision, and even Inspiration all provide MF with some strong options without locking her into a subpar keystone. Anyway, that's enough about MF. General rune impressions: Fleet Footwork seems extremely weak. The change from %total AD with crit scaling (Warlord's) to low base values with terrible scaling in general is a perplexing choice in direction. Maybe I'm not seeing who this would be useful on, but with Press The Attack for AD toplaners and Lethal Tempo for marksmen, I don't know who else would even consider this. I'm tempted to say that Taste of Blood is almost as powerful as this keystone with its better early values, better scaling, and only slightly longer early cooldown. Presence of Mind obscures too much of its numbers even in the detailed tooltip. Mana return values would be appreciated. Dark Harvest seems pretty strong, but I'd like to see some clarification of the fact that deaths of relevant units on both teams (e.g. allied champions and cannon minions) also grant souls. Not sure if this is intended, so I'm asking for either a bugfix or tooltip change to specify this behaviour since typically only enemy deaths grant rewards. If it's not intended, the numbers on soul scaling seem to be quite low. Arcane Comet seems really unreliable if you don't have hard CC. Not sure how this can be fixed; maybe make it slightly faster so that slows are more reliable in making it hit? Also, it's a pretty boring keystone. Not much interaction for the user other than "land your cc ability" or "land any ability and hope for the best". Celerity's damage scaling seems weak. Even in extreme cases, 8% of bonus movement speed seems to have very little payoff in terms of offensive stats. Perhaps most of the power was intended to be in the 3% movespeed bonus? The fact that I wouldn't even consider this on MF seems a bit strange as a champion with 100 bonus movespeed in her kit. Absolute Focus's tooltip is misleading. Last I checked, it did not scale linearly but instead gave something like a 5 AD buff at level 1, 7 AD at 6 and 11 and 16, and 2 AD at 18. I think smoothing out the curve is the simplest solution, but otherwise I'd like to see the tooltip reflect this. Not sure if Waterwalking follows the same pattern; didn't test that one. Scorch also seems weak, particularly in late game. I recognize that this rune is probably not meant to be a late game rune, but its early impact is also somewhat negligible at the moment. I'd like to see its niche sharpened to focus on early game or to give it better scaling to compete with Waterwalking or Gathering Storm. Waterwalking is a cool concept but I wouldn't use it in practice. It feels like a rune I'd want to try and play around, but the bonus AD/AP values scale so slowly that it feels like a waste of time to do so. The movespeed for roaming feels most relevant, but 25 roaming movespeed in the same slot as Scorch and Gathering Storm feels lacklustre. I'd like to have it scale to its maximum value sometime in the midgame so that you get the most value out of it during dragon/herald fights, when you spend the most time in the river and to differentiate it from the late, late game scaling of Gathering Storm (and if it already scales like that, I'd like to see that in the tooltip). In Resolve, Iron Shell and Mirror Shell are so weak that it doesn't feel like I'm making a major tradeoff for always taking Conditioning instead. I'd like to see the secondary effect on Iron Shell and Mirror Shell provide extra flat resistances instead of 5%. Lastly, I didn't really like Kleptomancy as a concept. I don't think gold income is a "cool" effect, and the RNG aspect of item looting is highly undesirable. Other than that, I'm really liking the progress on runes. There's still a lot of improvements that can be made, but the overall direction is really cool and much better than old masteries. There are some sacrifices on certain niche builds on old runes, but I think that the gains are overall more than worth it. EDIT: I've been reading some of the other replies in this thread and and someone mentioned that there isn't a great keystone for DPS-focused spellcasters (Karthus, Kayn, Rumble, Malzahar, Fiddlesticks, and Singed being some examples of champions I've seen fitting this pattern). Seems pretty accurate to me since I've run into the same problem with MF though she's actually better off than most of those champions; there's nothing really similar to DFT in the new runes, which seems to have left a gap behind.
MF seems to be in a similar situation as Vel'Koz, which I posted about earlier. The keystone that seems the best on him on paper (Electrocute) is pretty much off limits because of the remaining runes in Domination. The Sorcery path offers far more fitting runes to him, but the keystones are incredibly lacking. Summon Aery scales badly and doesn't fit; Phase Rush grants movement speed to a champion that's going to be stationary (channeling ultimate/combo) nearly every time he activates it. This leaves Arcane Comet, which feels clunky, unreliable, and unsatisfying. Additionally, because of the way Vel'Koz's E works, if you cast your E at under half its max range the comet will actually miss entirely. I attached a clip of it in my post further down. I love the different paths and flexibilities of these runes, but some champions are going to really come up short as a result of these changes.
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Rework Quinn

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