Chermorg (NA)
: So... Look a the other forums as well and you still have an average of less than 1000 monthly posts about suspensions. 1000/50000000 is well under 1%. The problem is not greater than the company admits. The problem here is you attempting to justify it by claiming it's normal when it's not.
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=NtL5qRYr,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T17:38:26.810+0000) > > So... Look a the other forums as well and you still have an average of less than 1000 monthly posts about suspensions. 1000/50000000 is well under 1%. > > The problem is not greater than the company admits. The problem here is you attempting to justify it by claiming it's normal when it's not. So you go from saying a couple hundred a month on a forum dedicated to 10% of the MAU to 1000 across all servers? Your fuzzy math is atrocious and you're now twisting my point. I'm not trying to justify toxic behavior, I'm saying its more common than Riot or you are willing to admit and more steps to encourage reform could help. Your dedication to towing the company line is admirable, but now you're going into waters of slander while ignoring plenty of valid arguments and statements. You are attempting to bully and silence rather than engage meaningfully. That's shameful and if you aren't willing to admit it, this dialogue is clearly over and you are a disgrace.
Chermorg (NA)
: There are somewhere between 50-100 million monthly players. There are maybe a couple hundred posts about bans on this forum a month. Is it really the norm?
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=NtL5qRYr,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T17:05:07.399+0000) > > There are somewhere between 50-100 million monthly players. There are maybe a couple hundred posts about bans on this forum a month. > > Is it really the norm? You are comparing one language forum versus a global MAU where almost a quarter of the MAU is accounted for in EU West and another 23.5% is Korea. While there are a variety of EUW, EUNE, and OCE posts on these boards, a majority are NA. (NA accounts for 10% of MAU) That suggests pretty quickly that your numbers are unsound and the problem is greater than the company admits.
Chermorg (NA)
: Put quite frankly, I'll trust the stats backed by multi-million dollar companies over your stats any day. Toxicity is **not** the norm and it is **not** common. It is the exception. Riot knows and understands that players will not spend money if they leave the game. They have repeatedly stated that this is an acceptable profit loss to them. They would much rather have an enjoyable game for the 90+% of players who aren't toxic to the point of any bans, ever, than they would have a toxic game for a few more players.
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=NtL5qRYr,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T10:38:47.328+0000) > > Put quite frankly, I'll trust the stats backed by multi-million dollar companies over your stats any day. Toxicity is **not** the norm and it is **not** common. It is the exception. > > Riot knows and understands that players will not spend money if they leave the game. They have repeatedly stated that this is an acceptable profit loss to them. They would much rather have an enjoyable game for the 90+% of players who aren't toxic to the point of any bans, ever, than they would have a toxic game for a few more players. Of course you're going to say you trust Riots stats, you've got that Advisor tag. To flatly ignore points that they have never shown full stats or revealed method only excuses a smoke screen. Most multi-million dollar companies publish reports that are as positive as Riots claims. There is a special forum board about behavior. Every day it is loaded with fresh complaints about why someone was banned, or how people are sick of seeing toxic behavior and never seeing feedback on reports. Even taking into account people often want to sound off about the negative far more often than the positive, toxicity is far more a norm than you or Riot want to admit. And finally, if Riot is willing to lift bans on an infamously toxic streamer and a player who actively threatened their employees, then that belies "acceptable profit loss" and makes them either a liar or a hypocrite.
Chermorg (NA)
: You realize that the tribunal overwhelmingly elected to not go lighter on players just because they were responding to someone else? Hence why when Riot switched to the IFS they coded it to ignore context altogether.
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=iX1XggvY,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T03:50:45.265+0000) > > You realize that the tribunal overwhelmingly elected to not go lighter on players just because they were responding to someone else? Hence why when Riot switched to the IFS they coded it to ignore context altogether. You realize I used conditional language such as "may have" as in no guarantees that anyone would be sympathetic or do more than skim and vote?
: Ahaha, I stopped reading at "drop 40-50 dollars". So you basically proposing a way for rich fuckbois to be immune to permaban. Just no.
> [{quoted}](name=Arisha the Dark,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=NtL5qRYr,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-18T06:55:05.255+0000) > > Ahaha, I stopped reading at "drop 40-50 dollars". So you basically proposing a way for rich fuckbois to be immune to permaban. Just no. That suggestion has more to do with weeding out people who would just abuse a free chance without a care. I don't see the price point suggested as really "rich", more like a bit less than if people were to buy a new video game. I also suggest it's a last shot to prove reform, not a repeat buy-around that keeps letting someone evade a ban on their account indefinitely. And frankly, I see this idea not as a rich man's loophole, but a fair chance to all players relative to someone like Jensen. He went so far beyond reasonable conduct that it's quite amazing he got a pardon after hacking and threatening people, but Riot lifted that ban which suggests that nobody is beyond reform and another chance. That shouldn't just be limited to wealth or marketable talent.
Chermorg (NA)
: The issue here is that, statistically speaking, there is no way for Riot to increase the value of the account (without adding more RP which they aren't going to do). If the value of an account with dollars and time spent isn't enough to convince someone to reform, they don't deserve a chance to get it back. Even if they *did* reform because of the permanent ban, removing it later for any reason would greatly lessen the severity of the punishment, causing the permanent ban to just be another step before many players would get actually permanently banned. Another thing that you may have a misconception about is that players return after a permaban. Most players permanently banned either leave the game completely or only rarely play after - which is the goal. By the time someone is permanently banned, Riot has no more patience for them, and wants them to leave the game completely. And a majority of permabanned players do leave and don't come back on a new account.
A couple points to make. First, psychology. If someone is in such a dark and toxic state that comes out in their frustrations and interactions, they are not only blind to what is bad to others, but also themselves. Something as simple as a chat restriction won't derail the course or lend to change. A short ban won't do either, as a week can be pretty brief. These small measures may work for minor offenders, but not the people who can't see the forest for the trees. After a longer lockout, regret and actual work to reform can be real as what was taken away can be perceived in a different way and truly desired. This can be reflected in both Tyler1 and Jensen eventually changing and what was denied is eventually restored. In their cases, it's not an account, but the rare opportunity each has. For an average gamer, after that investment is gone for a while, they can see more value in that and have a real desire to earn it back. That is part of the idea of the linked account, you don't just get your old one back, you have to prove your honor to regain it. Riot conveniently has a system to measure that. Second, respectfully, any stats claimed by Riot can't be trusted. They don't share method or metrics of how they measure toxic behavior and frequency, percent of change or players quitting after bans. Nobody wants to admit ugly truths like how common some toxic behavior is, or how easy it is for people to cycle back in a new account with the same bad behavior. They want to talk about the most positives possible as any company wanting as much profit as possible will. Am I really so rare that after I was banned I continued to play on a second account and still do? How can they be sure that player never went back? How can reasons why players stop even be measured by Riot if someone walks away from the game? Finally, something not yet discussed, Riot should never want to write off players forever. Players equal profit. Even assuming only 1% have been banned, that's what...6.7 million consumers at least? So even if only 5% of them reform, that's 335,000 players who would be more likely to support a company that gave them a chance than if they were written off forever. Even if each of them only one more time bought one more new skin, given that most skins cost about $10 worth of RP now, Riot just made over $3million giving them one more chance. If that's not worth it, it may suggest Riots stats actually show most banned players keep playing and spending money in new accounts.
: >Lobby: Jungler says "Auto filled, swap anyone?" Nobody swaps with him, he picks wukong and proceeds to flame the entire team for not pinging, blaming them for literally everything that happens to him Doesn't sound like a person that would avoid a poor behavior punishment for long. >Lobby: Bot/adc gets autofilled, hovers yasuo. I ban Yasuo because he is not a viable ADC bot lane and he is probably going to snipe mid lane and troll the team If their intention is to troll the team, banning a single champion is hardly going to prevent them of that. >Enemy mid laner goes to ALL chat, starts trash talking me Sounds like another person that wouldn't be able to avoid a poor behavior punishment for long. >now im freaking banned for 14 days because of people that TROLLED ME, and not the other way around? You're punished for your behavior and your behavior alone.
> [{quoted}](name=AeroWaffle,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=iX1XggvY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-18T03:15:50.199+0000) > > You're punished for your behavior and your behavior alone. It does beg the question of what OPs chat log looks like. Unfortunately without a system like tribunal that would let people judge the entire chat log, the automated system will punish you if you tilt and flame back at trolls when people may have forgiven you.
: I haven't seen someone this rude and tilted on this game in a long time
Sadly that's pretty standard go-to. It's not acceptable, but it's also not very creative or noteworthy.
Chermorg (NA)
: >I would like to argue if Riot is willing to lift bans on someone such as Tyler1 who was actively banned on any account discovered he had, and even Jensen had a lifetime competitive ban lifted, why not let Average Joe Gamer have a chance to redeem themselves? Because average Joe doesn't get his accounts banned on sight, and average Joe isn't competitive. Neither T1 nor Jensen had any bans on their accounts lifted.
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=NtL5qRYr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-18T01:55:15.025+0000) > > Because average Joe doesn't get his accounts banned on sight, and average Joe isn't competitive. Neither T1 nor Jensen had any bans on their accounts lifted. This is true and I know this. However, for a streamer and a pro that lost account isn't the same as what they both really were hurt by, the impact against their ability to stream and earn money, especially for a prospective pro like Jensen who was banned from coaching or playing for a team. Part of what this idea is about is real incentive to change. There was incentive for T1 and Jensen to change because they could stabilize their opportunity to make money playing a game they like. There is no real incentive for average Joe gamer to change. Enough people don't care about bans because they know they can make a new account and go back at it and still be toxic. If famous streamers even stronger IP banned, what are the odds they ever will? There may have been attempts before at this, but I wonder did any have a framework like the Honor system to track progress to earn back that old account, or a gateway like throwing down money to buy that last opportunity? Or was it just letting then back into the old account without any reform proof required so they just stayed cancerous? Maybe trying it again wouldn't change much and the % would be low and just shut it down again, or maybe with additional initiatives in place and possible to encourage a better community it could work better.
Rioter Comments
: Definitely true, but I was (during the stream) and am (while reading this article) a bit tired of Riot treating Faker like a friggin' god and the most important shit to ever touch the game. It's a team game. **SKT**, the **team** earned their win. Faker carried 1 game. It'd be nice if people distributed their credit more accurately. Faker doesn't need a bigger ego.
> [{quoted}](name=Shinjusuke,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8awdv242,comment-id=000e0000000200000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T23:20:32.944+0000) > > Definitely true, but I was (during the stream) and am (while reading this article) a bit tired of Riot treating Faker like a friggin' god and the most important shit to ever touch the game. It's a team game. **SKT**, the **team** earned their win. Faker carried 1 game. It'd be nice if people distributed their credit more accurately. Faker doesn't need a bigger ego. I understand. Faker fatigue is legit because of all the hype around him. That said, to a degree it is deserved. My jaw dropped when SSG let Ryze go to Faker, and he showed in that one game why he is hyped so much. Let him have a favourite champ who he can go godmode with, it's over.
: You'd have to import an entire korean team but not really import them. Let them stay in korea with korean coaches and only brand them as an NA team. It's pretty much fact that imported talent seems to stagnate in the NA scene. Something about NA just makes people worse at league.
> [{quoted}](name=Zamíel,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=T60PJAbE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-31T21:07:19.869+0000) > > You'd have to import an entire korean team but not really import them. Let them stay in korea with korean coaches and only brand them as an NA team. It's pretty much fact that imported talent seems to stagnate in the NA scene. Something about NA just makes people worse at league. The big first hurdle is the language barrier. Pings kinda work, buy if you have voice chat problems, it messes with overall cohesion.
: Caster's have said multiple times that faker can't be faker if the jungler doesn't give him vision and assist him and lets be real here. faker gets a lot of help and most of his kills are him and junglers invading the enemy jg or ganking other lanes. faker dies solo as much as he gets kills his 1v1s aren't anything special but he has the best decision making in the world in team fights.
> [{quoted}](name=MunchCrunchLunch,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=s8h2v3Iq,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-10-31T15:56:21.173+0000) > > Caster's have said multiple times that faker can't be faker if the jungler doesn't give him vision and assist him and lets be real here. faker gets a lot of help and most of his kills are him and junglers invading the enemy jg or ganking other lanes. faker dies solo as much as he gets kills his 1v1s aren't anything special but he has the best decision making in the world in team fights. With the assassin update coming, and if they stay strong through the next year, we might see the return of Season 3 Faker with untouchable kills. He's good on mages, but my god the plays he has made on LB and Zed....
Ayra888 (NA)
: I am not talking about the MVP shit I don't care about that because I know they all worked hard, I'm talking about how you compare Ruler and Bang so pathetic and how does Ruler a better ADC if Bang have a better record? yes ruler didn't die on that one game but Bang has that record of not dying multiple times and also can carey if he so please, sometimes it's part of SKTs strategies that the botlane is passive Bang is the best defensive ADC and have the ability go even despite of being attacked and focused on and maybe sometimes it worked sometimes not but they always have the better response, he still is a world class ADC . Maybe instead of insulting you should take notes. And yes you can have momentum against them but its not enough to defeat them, a win here and there against SKT is not enough you have to defeat them completely fair and square. SKT came up the better team at the end. You guys need to move on seriously
> [{quoted}](name=Ayra888,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8awdv242,comment-id=000e0000000100000007,timestamp=2016-10-31T03:10:12.318+0000) > > I am not talking about the MVP shit I don't care about that because I know they all worked hard, I'm talking about how you compare Ruler and Bang so pathetic and how does Ruler a better ADC if Bang have a better record? yes ruler didn't die on that one game but Bang has that record of not dying multiple times and also can carey if he so please, sometimes it's part of SKTs strategies that the botlane is passive Bang is the best defensive ADC and have the ability go even despite of being attacked and focused on and maybe sometimes it worked sometimes not but they always have the better response, he still is a world class ADC . Maybe instead of insulting you should take notes. And yes you can have momentum against them but its not enough to defeat them, a win here and there against SKT is not enough you have to defeat them completely fair and square. SKT came up the better team at the end. You guys need to move on seriously OK....the main reason I drew a comparison between Ruler and Bang was because someone tried to say he deserved the MVP award. If you don't care about that, why are you throwing a hissyfit? I'm not insulting Bang or even saying Ruler is better than him every day. Ruler was more impactful and a bigger factor in that series than Bang was. He was the better ADC that night in those match-ups. That's all. And really it wasn't a huge difference, because both were depending on teammates to set up fights and keep them safe. It was little things like well executed Jhin ults by Ruler and Bang missing most of his Ashe ults that pointed to one out performing the other. I have not beef against SKT and was cheering for them, so calm down.
Ayra888 (NA)
: Tell that after all the tropes he have won seriously, your comment is a typical hater comment. You haters doesn't make any logical sense, SkT is not perfect but they are still the best team, 3 time world champions, how about you?
> [{quoted}](name=Ayra888,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8awdv242,comment-id=000e0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T00:40:21.445+0000) > > Tell that after all the tropes he have won seriously, your comment is a typical hater comment. You haters doesn't make any logical sense, SkT is not perfect but they are still the best team, 3 time world champions, how about you? I'm not hating. Bang just didn't play better to deserve winning MVP, especially when Ruler was a better ADC.
: Really want to question on wtf was SSG Ruler trying to do here......
How about Crown flashing and STILL getting hit by the Ashe ult? Ruler made a couple mistakes, but he was on point the bad majority of the series and outplayed Bang most of the time.
Ayra888 (NA)
: Lol loser, Bang is 2nd time world champion while other ADCs just have momentum against him that's it.
> [{quoted}](name=Ayra888,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8awdv242,comment-id=000e00000001,timestamp=2016-10-30T16:38:33.752+0000) > > Lol loser, Bang is 2nd time world champion while other ADCs just have momentum against him that's it. Yes, Bang is a 2 time champ now. Still doesn't change that Ruler was a greater threat and played better than Bang. Bang was alright, but NOT MVP.
: Naw fam. I'm going let you finish but no.....Faker did not carry anything.
> [{quoted}](name=ShadowhChild,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8awdv242,comment-id=000e00000002,timestamp=2016-10-30T17:01:23.144+0000) > > Naw fam. I'm going let you finish but no.....Faker did not carry anything. Even Helen Keller knows Faker carried game 2.
: Crown is a midlaner
> [{quoted}](name=chubs1224,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8awdv242,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T11:04:32.050+0000) > > Crown is a midlaner Haha, whoops. I did mean Ruler was the better adc. It was apparently too late last night for me to keep the names straight in my head.
gvang (NA)
: Should've been Bengi; 6-1 in the semi and finals. If not him, then Bang, who doesn't make big flashy plays like Faker but consistently has excellent position and dishes out tons of damage.
Bang and Wolf were struggling some in the last couple games though. Faker straight carried Game 2 and arguably carried Game 5. Crown was the better ADC in the Finals.
Slythion (NA)
: Does anyone just feel so proud and happy for Faker?
Personally I'm happier for Bengi. Faker gets the most highlights and credit, but the semis and finals Bengi showed up and proved he wasn't washed up, that he was still a force in the jungle and team fights, and he is one of the best on the Rift.
: Lee and Elise already has SKT skins
Instead of third ones for Faker and Bengi, chroma packs for the Lee and Ryze SKT skins?
: Faker showing these NA pro players how its done
Right....Faker is the most extreme example, easily one of the best in the world. That said, I would assume on a whole NA players do the most BS streaming and least actual work trying to improve themselves.
Rioter Comments
: Fuse Two Champs together to create the ultimate champion..
I used to joke that if Darius and Fiora had a love child it would have a god ult.....Untargetable life stealing true damage sword and axe combo dunk.
HeeroTX (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=0007000100010000,timestamp=2016-10-24T22:19:48.517+0000) > > Nope, no credit for Egolift because he was talking trash and couldn't back it up. One fluke win over a Korean team and a total lack of impact over the rest of Groups doesn't prove anything. Forg1ven arguably had weaker competition, but still put up very good numbers that others didn't touch. OK, all of NA is trash, whatever. But "**ARGUABLY** had weaker competition"?!? Are you serious? Here, let's look at H2K at Worlds: vs. INTZ (IWC) - 2-0 vs. ANX (IWC) - 2-0 vs. ahq (LMS team that doesn't even have a stable mid) - 1-1 vs. EDG (LPL team) - 1-1 vs. SSG (#3 Korean team) 0-3 TSM shat the bed, no doubt. But they DEFINITELY had a tougher group. Even the analysts dubbed that group the "group of Death", and C9 had to play SKT in groups and SSG in the quarterfinals. Meaning by the end of quarters C9 had played TWO Korean teams before H2K had played ANY, and going into the semis it was clear that: Korea >>> all other regions
> [{quoted}](name=HeeroTX,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=00070001000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-25T13:56:32.516+0000) > > OK, all of NA is trash, whatever. But "**ARGUABLY** had weaker competition"?!? Are you serious? > Here, let's look at H2K at Worlds: > vs. INTZ (IWC) - 2-0 > vs. ANX (IWC) - 2-0 > vs. ahq (LMS team that doesn't even have a stable mid) - 1-1 > vs. EDG (LPL team) - 1-1 > vs. SSG (#3 Korean team) 0-3 > > TSM shat the bed, no doubt. But they DEFINITELY had a tougher group. Even the analysts dubbed that group the "group of Death", and C9 had to play SKT in groups and SSG in the quarterfinals. Meaning by the end of quarters C9 had played TWO Korean teams before H2K had played ANY, and going into the semis it was clear that: > Korea >>> all other regions So TSM faced the #3 Korean team, the #2 Chinese team, and a horrifically under performing #2 EU team, and that was a death group? Meanwhile the #3 EU team won over an IWC, #1 Chinese, and #2 LMS. By all rights, TSM under performed and H2K surpassed expectations.
: Here's a spoiler to SKT's 3rd set skins
The skins are decided by a mix of who the players want, who they used, and if the champ got a new skin recently or is already in the works, right? Wasn't that part of why Faker didn't get the Ryze skin he asked for in Season 3? We might not see SKT Poppy because of Star Guardian if so....
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-25T00:32:49.931+0000) > > The problem isn't the boards being anti-anything. The more you post about this the more everyone smells your BS. > > You first talk about a game that isn't even in this accounts match history, And when asked continued to post the exact game on the exact account with no hessitation > and then the VLogs don't match your claims of what went down. Vlogs? idk what those are > You bitch that any juggernaut should be able to delete an ADC (which is more like an assassin's job) without displaying any knowledge of the specified champs abilities and optimum combos, while many have pointed out that Jinx scales harder, on top of this instance when she was levels and gold ahead. > ''Bitch'' ''bitch'' thats all people do now is ''bitch''. Nobody is allowed to have an argument or opinion, Every single opinion is ''bitching'' Ok You're bronze 3. You know nothing and are stupid. Homie that is bitching. > The problem is you came to bitch about something that clearly surprised nobody else, and you want to use this horrible game example to justify crying "Jinx so broken" when that example does more to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the two compared champs than give a solid argument why anything is unbalanced! > Or i can use the 24% play rate 54% win rate example instead if that justifies my claims about jinx instead > If anything, now we all have reason to believe you're just salty that right now Jinx is stronger than your favorite ADC. My favorite adc is Kalista. And i still play her in norms......
> [{quoted}](name=ApexCH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-25T00:38:12.098+0000) > > And when asked continued to post the exact game on the exact account with no hessitation > > Vlogs? idk what those are > > ''Bitch'' ''bitch'' thats all people do now is ''bitch''. Nobody is allowed to have an argument or opinion, Every single opinion is ''bitching'' > > Ok You're bronze 3. You know nothing and are stupid. > > Homie that is bitching. > > Or i can use the 24% play rate 54% win rate example instead if that justifies my claims about jinx instead > > My favorite adc is Kalista. And i still play her in norms...... First, congrats dummy, VLog is a Video Log...which does not match your claims. You tried to tell this story on a different account than what it was played on and tried to say, "oh no, not that part" and still not at all what you claimed. Coming to boards crying about being deleted by an ADC with a level and gold lead on you while not even knowing the proper combos for the champ in play IS bitching. (Congrats BTW for being Silver3 and schooled by a Bronze on combos and balance) I'd you had lead with play rates and win rates then MAYBE you'd have a leg to stand on. Just shush kid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=000500000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T22:13:52.211+0000) > > If you compare Stixxay, or even most of the Worlds ADCs, to Forg1ven, clearly the strategy used by H2K was different. Forg1ven's role was to farm/keep towers cleared/push up lanes first, engage in team fights second. Even if he didn't get a lot of kills or participation, in the end he's putting out damage and keeping lanes controlled because he was clearing waves and not dying. Is that hard carrying? No, but clearly it was effective so long as the rest of his team didn't feed. > People don't seem to understand how impactful the combination of NOT dying and highly efficient CS can be. The point is, how can you label him the best Western ADC for clearing waves and not dying? I mean has Forgiven ever had an international performance like the one stixxay had at MSI? And on that note, why are you giving Forgiven a pass here for doing his job clearing waves and pushing lanes within his team's strategy, but then people turn around and badmouth and discredit Stixxay's accomplishments because they peeled for him at MSI so he could do damage and carry games? Is that not a hypocritical stance? I still routinely see how Stixxay didn't do shit but do dps while his team peeled for him at MSI (has to be one of the more ludicrous arguments ive ever heard), yet here someone is trying to tell me Forgiven did well because he did his job within his team; farming waves. Also, the point is, generally players who are labeled "best" make plays, and do things. Not farm waves. There is a ton of KDA players out there who farm jg/waves nonstop and you dont label them best X. Forgiven didn't do a single thing this series to live up to that hype. I guarantee you put someone like Bang on Sivir and hes crushing teamfights; not side lane waves. I mean I think we had this kind of conversation about why people thought DL was better than Stixxay and it was because he made his own plays more than Stixxay(which is pretty false, but whatever its the argument). Yet here we are labeling Forgiven best western ADC for farming waves of minions and not dying. AKA not making plays. Also, I would hope someone labeled Best X would have an effective champion pool of more than 2 champs, and could actually PLAY the meta champs. I feel like thats at least a baseline requirement. How are you going to label someone best western ADC when he gets banned out of the meta off 1 ban? There just seems to be a lot of excuse making and double standards that go into these. He played bad, he was mediocre, and his champion pool sucks; even the enemy team came out and said it. Not to mention, one more Caveat. The only western adc any koreans ever mention, is Stixxay. Do you ever hear them mention Forgiven at all?
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=0005000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T23:26:49.016+0000) > > The point is, how can you label him the best Western ADC for clearing waves and not dying? I mean has Forgiven ever had an international performance like the one stixxay had at MSI? And on that note, why are you giving Forgiven a pass here for doing his job clearing waves and pushing lanes within his team's strategy, but then people turn around and badmouth and discredit Stixxay's accomplishments because they peeled for him at MSI so he could do damage and carry games? Is that not a hypocritical stance? I still routinely see how Stixxay didn't do shit but do dps while his team peeled for him at MSI (has to be one of the more ludicrous arguments ive ever heard), yet here someone is trying to tell me Forgiven did well because he did his job within his team; farming waves. > > Also, the point is, generally players who are labeled "best" make plays, and do things. Not farm waves. There is a ton of KDA players out there who farm jg/waves nonstop and you dont label them best X. Forgiven didn't do a single thing this series to live up to that hype. I guarantee you put someone like Bang on Sivir and hes crushing teamfights; not side lane waves. I mean I think we had this kind of conversation about why people thought DL was better than Stixxay and it was because he made his own plays more than Stixxay(which is pretty false, but whatever its the argument). Yet here we are labeling Forgiven best western ADC for farming waves of minions and not dying. AKA not making plays. > > Also, I would hope someone labeled Best X would have an effective champion pool of more than 2 champs, and could actually PLAY the meta champs. I feel like thats at least a baseline requirement. How are you going to label someone best western ADC when he gets banned out of the meta off 1 ban? > > There just seems to be a lot of excuse making and double standards that go into these. He played bad, he was mediocre, and his champion pool sucks; even the enemy team came out and said it. Not to mention, one more Caveat. The only western adc any koreans ever mention, is Stixxay. Do you ever hear them mention Forgiven at all? OK, simple stuff first. No reason to bag on Stixxay for his team peeling around him. Others might, but if he's doing his job in the strategy and it's working, Kudos. He's one of the best in the World, and if you think he's better than Forgiven, OK. Not trying to tell you that you're wrong, but why I feel my opinion is right. I would give Forgiven more praise because he worked outside the normal pattern of "how to ADC" and it worked very well. When he was part of team fights, he was strong because of that farming and worked like a surgeon, dealing damage and cutting the enemy down while rarely in position to be taken out. That's not flashy, but it was effective. As for the champ thing, I already kinda argued my view on that, I think Riot right now has done a terrible job with the ADC champs and balance, which is why there is 2 or 3 times more carries unused than used by pros, and only about 4 used consistently. I don't think it necessarily reflects so badly on a player when so much of that role's pool isn't viable and it adversely affects that player. I mean, it's not like he was totally made to look like a clown like Likkrit was whenever he didn't get Brand. He could have done better and could improve, but in the end, how many other ADCs really did better than him?
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T22:00:39.511+0000) > > You don't understand Darius. It's not about Phage or move speed. You want to burst her down because Jinx will whittle your HP away. > So you need MAX passive stacks. That's the point. You clearly don't know how to combo Darius right, probably running bad runes and mastery at that. > Factor in as others have said, you were hiding the game at first, then it was revealed you were behind in gold and levels, there should be no shock at all you were killed. > I'll admit I'm not a very good player, but I understand the combos, match-ups, and strategies that clearly you don't. Hiding a game? How am i hiding a game when i linked the game in my match history and gave time stamps I dont understand the boards are so anti- everything. Im an adc main and i dont play jinx much but i know damn well how bullshit she is. My point is to prove that fervor is too fuckin and bloodthirster on jinx is too stupid right now. And that darius isnt really a good champ in a lot of situations
> [{quoted}](name=ApexCH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T23:03:34.119+0000) > > Hiding a game? How am i hiding a game when i linked the game in my match history and gave time stamps > > I dont understand the boards are so anti- everything. > > Im an adc main and i dont play jinx much but i know damn well how bullshit she is. My point is to prove that fervor is too fuckin and bloodthirster on jinx is too stupid right now. And that darius isnt really a good champ in a lot of situations The problem isn't the boards being anti-anything. The more you post about this the more everyone smells your BS. You first talk about a game that isn't even in this accounts match history, and then the VLogs don't match your claims of what went down. You bitch that any juggernaut should be able to delete an ADC (which is more like an assassin's job) without displaying any knowledge of the specified champs abilities and optimum combos, while many have pointed out that Jinx scales harder, on top of this instance when she was levels and gold ahead. The problem is you came to bitch about something that clearly surprised nobody else, and you want to use this horrible game example to justify crying "Jinx so broken" when that example does more to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the two compared champs than give a solid argument why anything is unbalanced! If anything, now we all have reason to believe you're just salty that right now Jinx is stronger than your favorite ADC.
HeeroTX (NA)
: I was ONLY pointing out that the OP said FORG1VEN is "maybe top 3 adc in the world" because he made the semi-finals at Worlds. Nowhere did I say that Doublelift or Sneaky or anyone else IS "top 3" or even MAYBE top 3. I merely pointed out that FORG1VEN was given a stage to show off (prior to the semifinals) by playing against weaker competition. Every 4 years there's a world cup team that goes farther than expected due to having a weak group. H2K simply got that "benefit" this year. Again, I am NOT saying FORG1VEN is bad, I'm simply saying you can't claim he's "one of the best in the world" SIMPLY because H2K made semis at Worlds without playing a SINGLE Korean team up to that point. That is stupid. I'm SIMPLY saying, if you put the Koreans in their own group and make the entire rest of the world fight for the OTHER finals slot, I don't think H2K win that slot, they MIGHT do so (which shows EU isn't "trash" or anything of the sort) but if they wanted respect beyond people (like me) saying that they got "freelo" draws, then they needed to beat a Korean team, and they did NOT. And I'm saying H2K wasn't even able to take one GAME off them (neither did C9, I'm saying I give DLift a LITTLE credit because TSM was able to take 1 game).
> [{quoted}](name=HeeroTX,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=000700010001,timestamp=2016-10-24T15:16:15.269+0000) > > I was ONLY pointing out that the OP said FORG1VEN is "maybe top 3 adc in the world" because he made the semi-finals at Worlds. Nowhere did I say that Doublelift or Sneaky or anyone else IS "top 3" or even MAYBE top 3. I merely pointed out that FORG1VEN was given a stage to show off (prior to the semifinals) by playing against weaker competition. Every 4 years there's a world cup team that goes farther than expected due to having a weak group. H2K simply got that "benefit" this year. Again, I am NOT saying FORG1VEN is bad, I'm simply saying you can't claim he's "one of the best in the world" SIMPLY because H2K made semis at Worlds without playing a SINGLE Korean team up to that point. That is stupid. I'm SIMPLY saying, if you put the Koreans in their own group and make the entire rest of the world fight for the OTHER finals slot, I don't think H2K win that slot, they MIGHT do so (which shows EU isn't "trash" or anything of the sort) but if they wanted respect beyond people (like me) saying that they got "freelo" draws, then they needed to beat a Korean team, and they did NOT. And I'm saying H2K wasn't even able to take one GAME off them (neither did C9, I'm saying I give DLift a LITTLE credit because TSM was able to take 1 game). Nope, no credit for Egolift because he was talking trash and couldn't back it up. One fluke win over a Korean team and a total lack of impact over the rest of Groups doesn't prove anything. Forg1ven arguably had weaker competition, but still put up very good numbers that others didn't touch. I wouldn't say he's top 3, but you can't deny how effective he was for much of the tournament. Picking and choosing select games doesn't address the whole body of work a player does.
: > [{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-24T01:12:53.421+0000) > > list of adcs from worlds in order of stats > > http://best.gg/dbook/worlds/adc/bang > > something to for ya to chew on Yea. Take a close look at those stats. Look at Stixxay's DPM, DMG% share, kill participation compared to Forgiven. Forgiven farms well and survives. Stixxay's stats show hes gets things done. His DPM is 650, DMG% 29%, KP 63%. Forgiven is 548, 26%, 54%. Hell, damn near all of his stats are better except for kda and farm. So, please tell me how much forgiven hard carried all those games. I mean Stixxay got Cop'd if you look at those stats. Forgiven literally beat him out because he afk farmed and didn't die because he wasnt even participating.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-24T05:17:49.348+0000) > > Yea. Take a close look at those stats. Look at Stixxay's DPM, DMG% share, kill participation compared to Forgiven. Forgiven farms well and survives. Stixxay's stats show hes gets things done. His DPM is 650, DMG% 29%, KP 63%. Forgiven is 548, 26%, 54%. Hell, damn near all of his stats are better except for kda and farm. So, please tell me how much forgiven hard carried all those games. I mean Stixxay got Cop'd if you look at those stats. Forgiven literally beat him out because he afk farmed and didn't die because he wasnt even participating. If you compare Stixxay, or even most of the Worlds ADCs, to Forg1ven, clearly the strategy used by H2K was different. Forg1ven's role was to farm/keep towers cleared/push up lanes first, engage in team fights second. Even if he didn't get a lot of kills or participation, in the end he's putting out damage and keeping lanes controlled because he was clearing waves and not dying. Is that hard carrying? No, but clearly it was effective so long as the rest of his team didn't feed. People don't seem to understand how impactful the combination of NOT dying and highly efficient CS can be.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T02:51:03.027+0000) > > It is....Q-Auto-E-W Auto if they are going to outrun you. > If you needed E to get her in melee in the first place you were screwed from start. If they are going to outrun you then there is absolutely no reason to auto unless you're trying to proc phage, in that case if she throws traps you will need your E to pull her back and in some situations slowing down someone by 90% is better than gaining a small amount of movement speed.....
> [{quoted}](name=ApexCH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-24T03:18:37.834+0000) > > If they are going to outrun you then there is absolutely no reason to auto unless you're trying to proc phage, in that case if she throws traps you will need your E to pull her back and in some situations slowing down someone by 90% is better than gaining a small amount of movement speed..... You don't understand Darius. It's not about Phage or move speed. You want to burst her down because Jinx will whittle your HP away. So you need MAX passive stacks. That's the point. You clearly don't know how to combo Darius right, probably running bad runes and mastery at that. Factor in as others have said, you were hiding the game at first, then it was revealed you were behind in gold and levels, there should be no shock at all you were killed. I'll admit I'm not a very good player, but I understand the combos, match-ups, and strategies that clearly you don't.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-10-24T02:41:23.835+0000) > > I'm just assuming since you didn't even list the proper combo that you don't know how to play Darius right. > (Hint, Q-Auto-W Auto. W resets your AA and that is key to maxing stacks ASAP buddy.) I W'd because she had movement speed on me. Thats like saying W first is wrong because someone is running away from you..
> [{quoted}](name=ApexCH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yWQx3zdL,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-10-24T02:43:26.788+0000) > > I W'd because she had movement speed on me. > > Thats like saying W first is wrong because someone is running away from you.. It is....Q-Auto-E-W Auto if they are going to outrun you. If you needed E to get her in melee in the first place you were screwed from start.
: I caught a jinx late game as darius
I'm just assuming since you didn't even list the proper combo that you don't know how to play Darius right. (Hint, Q-Auto-W Auto. W resets your AA and that is key to maxing stacks ASAP buddy.)
HeeroTX (NA)
: Just want to note, that the only common opponent TSM & H2K had was SSG. In TSM's best game Doublelift went 4-0-4 and TSM won (only team to beat SSG), in TSM's worst, Doublelift went 9-3-1, but team lost. In FORG1VEN's "best" (?) game he went 4-2-8 and H2K lost. At worst, FORG1VEN went 0-0-2 and also lost. FORG1VEN is a great ADC and had a great run at world's, but he also benefited from an easier path. Its ridiculous to say he's proven better than many other ADCs at world's simply because he beat weaker teams. (2 IWCs, 1 questionable LMS team and a probably overrated LPL team) Props to them for taking care of business, they did what they had to do to get to semis. But I'll wager several other teams (C9, RNG & TSM notably) could have and I'd say WOULD have, done the same if they swapped places with H2K.
> [{quoted}](name=HeeroTX,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-10-24T01:20:50.589+0000) > > Just want to note, that the only common opponent TSM & H2K had was SSG. > In TSM's best game Doublelift went 4-0-4 and TSM won (only team to beat SSG), in TSM's worst, Doublelift went 9-3-1, but team lost. > In FORG1VEN's "best" (?) game he went 4-2-8 and H2K lost. At worst, FORG1VEN went 0-0-2 and also lost. > > FORG1VEN is a great ADC and had a great run at world's, but he also benefited from an easier path. Its ridiculous to say he's proven better than many other ADCs at world's simply because he beat weaker teams. (2 IWCs, 1 questionable LMS team and a probably overrated LPL team) Props to them for taking care of business, they did what they had to do to get to semis. But I'll wager several other teams (C9, RNG & TSM notably) could have and I'd say WOULD have, done the same if they swapped places with H2K. What you're attempting to do is akin to "mma math". Comparing two teams against a common opponent under different circumstances doesn't translate to theoretical results. Looking only at the kills/deaths of a couple games without even looking at CS, final KDA ratio, etc...that's Bronze level analysis and breakdown. What you're missing is that even in his worst game you found, Forg1ven didn't even give away a death. Meanwhile, Egolift showed as always his greedy tilt nature he's famous for, soaking up resources and giving some back, unable to translate an advantage into success. That's why end stats for groups show Stixxay is better than both Lift and Sneaky. And given how people are bagging on Splyce and RNG's wins were alleged upsets, it speaks more to how disjointed TSM is as a team on a whole, and if Lift couldn't post a better CS or kda I don't believe he would have done better in a different group at all.
: FORG1VEN
In regards to pick/ban, I think the real problem is the carries as a whole being in an unhealthy state. While Cait, Jhin, Ashe, and Ez are good, Sivir and Lucian are OK, then there is a list of other ADCs unseen. MF, Trist, Corki, Varus, Vayne, Quinn, Kalista, Draven.... If one or two ADCs are banned, or if a team doesn't prioritize the pick, a role with only a handful of viable options leaves a player in a rough spot, especially if the current game balance cuts out several champs they just plain can play better but won't scale or fit the comp.
dakm102 (NA)
: Na=Eu
League of Legends Worlds Championship is kinda like Alien vs Predator. No matter who wins, The West loses.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ricketts,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-23T23:10:13.848+0000) > > Stixxay was the best ADC out of NA, but his stats fall short of Forg1ven. The only ADCs who really outperformed him were the Koreans. He even was notably better than Uzi. What did forgiven face? We saw him finally face a Korean team and look at him. Dude was banned out off 1 pick, because he refuses to practice meta champs. Played a walking ward.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EU4ErpE3,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-10-23T23:28:19.210+0000) > > What did forgiven face? We saw him finally face a Korean team and look at him. Dude was banned out off 1 pick, because he refuses to practice meta champs. Played a walking ward. Their team had struggles against SSG, but the problem wasn't necessarily just Forg1ven. Their bot lane was clearly as WTF'd as SKT was with MF support. I would have to look back, but I remember seeing players outside bot lane feeding to Galaxy. While a losing series often looks bad, to talk smack about him is foolish. He proved himself a top shelf ADC throughout the tourney.
: FORG1VEN
Well, if you look at stats for this Worlds, Forg1ven was consistently at or near the top in KDA and CS, while having lower deaths, in either the Group or KO stage. The only ADCs consistently better than him were all three Koreans (Bang, PraY, then Ruler) with more Kills, Participation, and not much behind Forg1ven in KDA and CS. Stixxay had stat strengths more like the Koreans than Forg1ven, yet while his stats were a bit below Forg1ven, he clearly had better output than Sneaky or Egolift. In no particular order, I'd say worlds best ADCs are Bang, PraY, Ruler, For1ven, Uzi, Deft and Stixxay.
: FORG1VEN
Stixxay was the best ADC out of NA, but his stats fall short of Forg1ven. The only ADCs who really outperformed him were the Koreans. He even was notably better than Uzi.
: HEY EU
As a NA player I don't understand the people trying to argue NA is better than EU. Splyce and G2 were bad, but H2K actually put up a decent fight against SSG. Far better than C9 did in quarterfinals. Meanwhile TSM and CLG both failed to live up to hype two years running. Fans forget EU really formed the meta and won first Worlds, and have more regularly represented further in Worlds than NA ever has. NA fans forget our region started importing talent first....from EU. Simple truth is NA is the weakest major region and has been bottom for years. Korea is King, with China and EU jostling for 2nd.
: So......what SKT skins will we get this time?
Orianna might be the first champion to get two different championship team skins. Or Riot will troll us all with a timebomb Cup throwing Zilean with a massive SKT crest on his back.
: GG SKT
That match was intense. When was the last time we saw Koreans go off meta? Hell, when did Zilean become a chosen mid? Or when last did a series go to 5? Everyone just mad and jealous of SKT or Korea is to be ignored. That was some great and entertaining play. Hats off to ROX too, it was a great series. And I really think Riot should start releasing an All Star Worlds mix of skins, besides the Champs. Smeb, Peanut, Ryu, Forg1ven, Mata?
: first game: jayce got double kill, double buffs and the wave crashed into tower, he could've played doombot gnar, he would still be fucked poppy was banned in all games vs him, so he picked what he was thinking was a safe pick in game two or three, smurf even was able to 1v1 jayce as gnar in mid to late game. The thing is, the pick itself was fine, the way they played around it was not. Take game two, jayce tps bot, gets fb...... again...... i mean, you can't go in champ select "ok, my enemy laner will get fb and deny at least 1 minion wave from me while doing" and expect to play it equal yet he still did decent. It wasn't the pick that was the problem, it was how they played. In the same instance where Jayce got FB, the ADC from ANX retreated way to quickly (along side with ANX tp-ing to late), to the point H2K got a lane advantage and the ANX jungler was unable to punish it. It happens, I bet even you get games where the enemy gets a small advantage and then you are fucked........... you can't go into a game with the mentality: we will be 10k gold down by 15 mintues, and we need a team comp around that fact
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=40uUpWGE,comment-id=00000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-17T18:40:55.101+0000) > > first game: jayce got double kill, double buffs and the wave crashed into tower, he could've played doombot gnar, he would still be fucked > > poppy was banned in all games vs him, so he picked what he was thinking was a safe pick > in game two or three, smurf even was able to 1v1 jayce as gnar in mid to late game. The thing is, the pick itself was fine, the way they played around it was not. > > Take game two, jayce tps bot, gets fb...... again...... i mean, you can't go in champ select "ok, my enemy laner will get fb and deny at least 1 minion wave from me while doing" and expect to play it equal yet he still did decent. > > It wasn't the pick that was the problem, it was how they played. In the same instance where Jayce got FB, the ADC from ANX retreated way to quickly (along side with ANX tp-ing to late), to the point H2K got a lane advantage and the ANX jungler was unable to punish it. > > It happens, I bet even you get games where the enemy gets a small advantage and then you are fucked........... you can't go into a game with the mentality: we will be 10k gold down by 15 mintues, and we need a team comp around that fact Dude...three games they went with a champ that Jayce counters. They prioritized Caitlyn so bad it makes glaringly clear how bad their ADC was. Likkrit was exposed as a trick pony reliant on Brand, and they never tried to take the Zyra first that was giving their bot duo fits. FFS, who the hell bans Sivir? Sure, she's a strong wave clear ADC but is in no way such a strong champ that calls for a ban. ANX was just horrible in pick/ban.
: ANX's impact on eSports+the bonus of 5 bans per team
ANX's impact over the course of Worlds boils down to a few bullet points. - Playing your way as a team might win you a game instead of trying to outdo the Koreans at their game. - Your star player better have more than one champ they can play well. -Pick and ban better than a Bronze team if you want to seriously advance in knockout.
: Am I the only who hopes H2k loses?
Why do people mention MSI? It's a totally different tournament that proves nothing. EU has ups and downs from year to year at Worlds. For EU, a good year is a team representing their region in Semis. For NA a good year is anyone escaping groups.
: The Hype Scales Back
That's the problem with this "Real Life" thing, reality scales better than hype.
Ricketts (NA)
: ANX Throws
Or BAN JAYCE! Who the hell bans Sivir FFS?
THE D1C (NA)
: ANX </3
Seriously, why not Teemo instead of getting stomped on Gnar again? Hell, even Illaoi would have brought variety even if Jayce would've eaten her alive.
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Ricketts

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