: Are we supposed to believe "Stormrazor" is an adc item
Intent is niche on some ADCs and some assassins. It's tunable towards ADCs via pushing the gold value into the second passive or amplifying repeatability of first passive, tunable towards Assassins via pushing gold into AD or simply making it cheaper. We're expecting at least one outlier user from both classes initially (Jhin, Rengar, and I guess Quinn is both right now?), but believe that they can be balanced. We do have a nuclear option if they can't, though - locking out Duskblade procs from working on crits (or otherwise preventing you from using both at once).
Häxel (EUW)
: It still remains a question if the as will activate on ult press or ult finish. Ult press would be realy good on trynda, taric, yi. Ult finish would suck for them and be good for jhin, lucian, mf. Kindred idk what would be better, maybe the finish cause in the ult you can't die so doesn't matter much?
Swapping to a "first basic attack after you ult grants the buff" paradigm in testing. That's not locked in, but seems promising so far. (I believe it's bugged on PBE today though :/ )
: spin doesnt reset the timer. otoh for some reason Q won't apply the crit (apparently any modified auto attack won't right now -- hopefully a bug) but you can get 2 free crits before and after spin and it's a fairly big chunk of extra damage
The Q thing is a bug, should be fixed on PBE tomorrow (had quite a few things go wrong in pushing it to PBE). Q-E-Auto should proc it twice if you spin for 2.5 seconds. For a while in testing it just gave you 100% crit chance til you critted something, which was super fun on Garen. Turns out we can't actually let Jhin have 4000 gold of free stats while he ults, though - who'd've thought?
: @Riot Axes I'm aware that they have different applications and triggers and different ways to counterplay, but they BOTH give conditional attack speed, so what is being done to prevent Hail Of Blades from stepping on lethal tempo's toes? Or does it work more like Jayce's ability that gives you Max attack speed for 3 attacks and it's intended to be a stand-alone attack speed steroid as opposed to scaling with other AS items? If that's the case, is the buff short enough to be counterplayed with CC?
> Or does it work more like Jayce's ability that gives you Max attack speed for 3 attacks and it's intended to be a stand-alone attack speed steroid as opposed to scaling with other AS items? It's this Counterplay is intrinsic - if you delay the second or third attack, you've lost a ton of the value of attack speed. Not sure how short the buff is off the top of my head.
Skynix (NA)
: What about Yasuo? Will he be nerf because of this?
I've been asked both if he'll be nerfed and if he'll be buffed D: {{sticker:sg-janna}} ...real answer, champions that work differently with critical strike (Yasuo, Tryndamere, Gangplank, Ashe, Jhin, even stuff like Corki) will need to be watched but it's not at all clear which of them are nerfed and buffed yet, so follow-up is more likely than pre-release changes, unless there's a design quality issue to be handled.
: Most of these changes seem pretty reasonable. The one I'm easily most concerned about is the introduction of Stormrazer + Hail of Blades. I'm gonna be blunt. The "first auto hits really hard" play pattern has been _insanely_ toxic in the past, pretty much without exception. I was hoping Duskblade would eventually be removed from the game for this reason, but I understand its place as a necessary evil to delay assassin burst until they have an item. I'm particularly worried about champs that can stack these with Lethality (obviously Duskblade, as you mentioned, but even Ghostblade would work). I'm thinking Draven and Jhin, primarily. Jhin normally has to wait until 3 or 4 items before he's nuking people with random one-off autos, and Draven.....well, he already does this from an early point, but I don't exactly view him as a pinnacle of League's game design.
Stormrazor is a guaranteed critical strike - it doesn't produce a higher spike than you could already get with a Phantom Dancer, though the reliability of that first crit is quite powerful and there are some cases that will need to be watched. Hail of Blades is attack speed for your first few attacks - that is definitely a burst increase over 1-ish seconds, but it does leave windows for flash/zhonyas/whatever other tools you have.
: As an ADC player I really like what I'm hearing. Yes the class is strong but the "two crit items" is extremely boring and your scaling can feel very bad on some adc compared to others; who lacked options. A few questions!!: 1. Stormrazor sounds good on Draven especially, maybe Miss Fortune and Quinn. Is it aimed specifically at these early scaling ADCs to maintain their power? 2. Speaking of Quinn, is there plans to get Quinn and Corki back into the botlane (and maybe, crossing fingers; a Graves rework/partial revert??) 3. I hope these goals of like, making "winning the lane" more important don't buff Caitlyn indirectly yet more. I'm pretty sick of her dominance. I hope that champion is getting some work because she lacks weaknesses and is strong late while being the ultimate lane bully adc. 4. Is a large cost reduction of BOTRK in the cards? because it would be a good rush on several characters, if it wasn't for the cost...
> [{quoted}](name=Wild Geese,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2ykqAkNa,comment-id=002a,timestamp=2018-04-30T18:42:26.527+0000) > > As an ADC player I really like what I'm hearing. Yes the class is strong but the "two crit items" is extremely boring and your scaling can feel very bad carries compared to others; who lacked options. A few questions!!: > > 1. Stormrazor sounds good on Draven especially, maybe Miss Fortune and Quinn. Is it aimed specifically at these early scaling ADCs to maintain their power? I expect it to help these sorts of champions, though I'm doubtful of it on MF. Stormrazor is intended to fit into a variety of builds as an early purchase, though the meaning of the item changes (crit-heavy builds use it for MS + a steroid; Lethality or raw AD builds use it to frontload damage). > 2. Speaking of Quinn, is there plans to get Quinn and Corki back into the botlane (and maybe, crossing fingers; a Graves rework/partial revert??) Bot lane Quinn's indirectly buffed because she's not getting the base stats treatment of the rest of the class. Corki is more of an edge case, presently he does have the base stat changes applied but I'm not committed to that. > 3. I hope these goals of like, making "winning the lane" more important don't buff Caitlyn indirectly yet more. I'm pretty sick of her dominance. I hope that champion is getting some work because she lacks weaknesses and is strong late while being the ultimate lane bully adc. If Caitlyn's OP, Caitlyn gets nerfs. That said, champions like Caitlyn and Tristana express a more clear weakness with these changes - it takes longer for champions who express mid-late game power through crit strike autoattacks to turn on, which means that they're more exploitable in the mid-game than before. Whether that's enough remains to be seen. > 4. Is a large cost reduction of BOTRK in the cards? because it would be a good rush on several characters, if it wasn't for the cost... BoRK is 200 cheaper on the build today (3200 total). That is of course subject to change between now and 8.11.
: @Riot Axes How will Randuin's interact with the new IE? It seems counterintuitive that the premier anti-crit item would do NOTHING to counteract the premier crit item, But given how true damage works, it seems like that would be the case, so does it apply its crit damage reduction BEFORE the true damage conversion or AFTER? Because it feels like it should be the former.
You make a good point for sure. We're still discussing - I'm leaning towards Tabi and Randuin's applying before Infinity Edge.
: I'm concerned about Stormrazor allowing ADCs to burst squishy targets. I thinks the empowered attacks should come after a delay, not right off the bat, something like "1.5 seconds after damaging a champion, your next 2 attacks deal extra damage".
The item that's in testing today (THINGS MAY STILL CHANGE): Stormrazor B.F. Sword + Pickaxe + Dagger + 925 gold (3400 total) +65 Attack Damage +25% Attack Speed UNIQUE Passive: If you haven't attacked in the last 2.5 seconds, your next basic attack will critically strike. UNIQUE Passive: When you critically strike, gain 25% attack speed and 8% movement speed for 1.5 seconds. This shouldn't be able to generate higher burst than ADCs are already capable of - it just takes the RNG out of it. (Did I burst or not?) That rule is pretty impactful and, as I noted earlier, I have some reservations about Duskblade + Stormrazor purchases, but for max ADC burst, it isn't an increase.
: What changes at are being made to zeal item efficiency? Stat nerfs, price increases, or both?
: In regards to nerfing lane sustain, are you worried this will make taking a Nami or Soraka to lane too much of a requirement as opposed to a tankier support, or do you consider this a win in regards to making the kind of support you bring to lane matter more and have the contributions between the warden and enchanter classes less homogeneous in lane phase?
It's a meaningful buff to both mage and enchanter supports in lane, as compared to tanks. It hasn't made them a requirement in our tests, but if it does we have plenty of tuning levers available.
DrLuau (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2ykqAkNa,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-04-30T18:10:15.286+0000) > > Stormrazor has been excellent on Jhin in testing. I'm less sure exactly what's going to happen with Ashe. I do assume significant follow-up will be necessary, and Ashe/Gangplank/Jhin/Tryndamere are all champions we'll need to keep an eye on. Adding items and masteries that front-load damage seems awful like reintroducing the Duskblade play pattern for assassins. Are you intending to keep an eye on assassin throughput with these items?
We have been, yes. The nuclear option will be locking out Duskblade and Stormrazor from being used together. I would strongly prefer to avoid that situation if possible, but testing has been inconclusive and its a real risk. Last Whisper is also significant here, though in that case it'll be about tuning either the lethality items' stats or the champions around a world where those builds scale better across game time.
usul1202 (NA)
: Thank you for the comment about nerfing lane sustain. I've been worried about the status of my poke make supports ever since the announced removal of mana from spellthiefs. This makes me feel much more comfortable that I wont be nerfed out of lane.
In case you missed it, we reverted the Spellthief's change based on feedback.
: Do you have any plans for how this will affect non-standard crit users like ashe and jhin?
Stormrazor has been excellent on Jhin in testing. I'm less sure exactly what's going to happen with Ashe. I do assume significant follow-up will be necessary, and Ashe/Gangplank/Jhin/Tryndamere are all champions we'll need to keep an eye on.
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000) > > Fighter work in a follow-up patch. make me dream, tell me what are the goals
> [{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=00050009,timestamp=2018-04-17T21:31:53.214+0000) > > make me dream, tell me what are the goals "Snowballing Fighters can carry" (Caution: It is very likely that our idea of "snowballing fighters can carry" is different from a fighter main's idea of the same thing)
Ultîma (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2018-04-17T20:01:09.557+0000) > > I don't think it needs to be deleted. Fleet Footwork is a cool fallback and great for a certain style but should not be allowed to be the dominant option in the meta. That might mean nerfs to FF, buffs to other keystones, or a combination - we're pretty sure there need to be changes, less sure exactly which changes. I'd say a combination is most likely. Please consider melee characters who might enjoy using FF if you nerf the Keystone due to ADC abuse in the botlane. FF is pretty interesting for some melee-carries who take it in matchup specific instances and it would be a shame to see it become unviable there.
> [{quoted}](name=Ultîma,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-17T20:06:38.853+0000) > > Please consider melee characters who might enjoy using FF if you nerf the Keystone due to ADC abuse in the botlane. FF is pretty interesting for some melee-carries who take it in matchup specific instances and it would be a shame to see it become unviable there. I'll flag that for the person working on it. I'm not sure what the outcome will be, but I'll make sure we're tracking it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000) > > Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. > > One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch. > > We're looking at Marksmen with a few values: > > 1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot. > 2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits. > 3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen. > 4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions. > > This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes. Im curious as to what you guys think about fleet footwork. In my opinion it needs to be removed because adcs should have to buy lifesteal if they want sustain.
> [{quoted}](name=BoilTheOil,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:39:38.270+0000) > > Im curious as to what you guys think about fleet footwork. In my opinion it needs to be removed because adcs should have to buy lifesteal if they want sustain. I don't think it needs to be deleted. Fleet Footwork is a cool fallback and great for a certain style but should not be allowed to be the dominant option in the meta. That might mean nerfs to FF, buffs to other keystones, or a combination - we're pretty sure there need to be changes, less sure exactly which changes. I'd say a combination is most likely.
Tomosima (EUNE)
: Sounds good so far I´d love it if you made the Jungle harder so you need knowledge, jungle items, smite buffs and a champion that can survive the harsh conditions(Olaf,WW,Udyr,Fiddlesticks) and not champs like twitch in there. Rework the AP jungle item as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Tomosima,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:49:12.091+0000) > > Sounds good so far > I´d love it if you made the Jungle harder so you need knowledge, jungle items, smite buffs and a champion that can survive the harsh conditions(Olaf,WW,Udyr,Fiddlesticks) and not champs like twitch in there. > Rework the AP jungle item as well. Someone's working on the jungle but not my project - don't know how likely they are to ship anything, or when that'd be shipping.
AmazoX (EUW)
: Give us an Update of what's coming this Mid Season, don't leave us in the shadows.
Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch. We're looking at Marksmen with a few values: 1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot. 2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits. 3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen. 4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions. This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.
: My favorite thing is when people complain, "this game is wayyyyyyy too snowball!!" But then a couple days later the same people are complaining "catch-up xp is so unfair, when I put someone behind (when I snowball) I deserve to continue go have that lead!!!!!" You can have either or. Not both when it only benefits you
Sort of. This game is supposed to be snowbally - feeling great about playing awesome is important. It's also supposed to have comebacks - games shouldn't usually be over at 15 minutes (sometimes it will be, but the rate shouldn't be super high). Keeping the right balance there is tricky, especially given how influential champions are - if you get a run of Riven vs Yasuo in your games for a few days, the game will feel super snowbally; if you get a run of Maokai vs Cho'Gath top lanes for a few games, the opposite will be true. How snowballing occurs and how you come back also matter. There's a big difference between 2 kills and then zoning vs 8 kills; there's a big difference between a comeback because the game just gives you XP when behind and a comeback because you shut down your top two opponents in one fight. I think we're at a reasonable place but not at an optimum - I think we can do better on both snowballing and comebacks than we currently do.
: What happened to the Yasuo rework that Riot said they would do?
Explorations so far haven't been fruitful, so we have nothing pending. We still recognize the value of good Yasuo work, though.
: Really quick hijack, is the passive damage boost portions going to apply fully to GP, given that his Q proc is treated like an AA for all but his Passive Thusfar?
Melee Only (and Ranged Only) items care about whether the champion is ranged or melee, not whether the attack is coming from far away or anything like that. Gangplank is a melee champion, he gets to use melee items fully. This makes Parrrrrrrrrlay quite the special snowflake as a functionally ranged basic attack that applies Melee Only effects - I had to spend a good couple hours getting it to match expectations with Titanic Hydra back around the Juggernauts patch, and the jerk isn't even considerate enough to buy it >:[
: Wait, +30% Tenacity as in additive to Merc Treads Tenacity, Multiplicative to Merc Treads, or doesn't stack with Merc Treads? Also to consider: Irelia Tenacity.
Additive with Mercs, multiplicative with (I believe) every other source. There's probably some other strange interaction in the system somewhere. If I missed something I might have to revisit. We need to do a pass on how Tenacity stacks in general, but for now this was the least harmful approach I could find.
Häxel (EUW)
: Do you know what decides Classifications in the client? We had the Marksmanupdate 2 Years ago and the urgot update recently: Why is Urgot now classified as a Fighter with Jayce while Graves is still a Marksman? Sure, Graves builds a little bit more Damage, but he builds far more tanky as other adcs (or Jayce some times), goes not realy crit like most adcs and has a realy low range. Only 75 range more as Urgot but same time 75 less range as Lucian or Jayce Canon Form, but Graves autos need to recharge and can be blocked. Why is Teemo a Marksman while Kennen is a Mage and Kayle is a Fighter? Teemo could be also a Mage or Assassin. At least on Kog'maw the main intended Build should be onhit and the Ap mid build is more of a secodnary one, but on Teemo and Kennen Riot seems more to like the community building ap on them. Exceptio is Onhit teemo being played high elo and onhit Kennen was played realy much recently, even in the LCS. In my opinion either Urgot should be in the Marksman class as well as Kennen or Teemo and Graves should not be there. Probably secondary. Cause while Jayce and Kayle have Melee Forms (Kayle rework without it maybe ;) Urgot and Graves are full range. So its ofc odd to have them on Fighter. But with their Lowrange having them on Marksman is neither strange. But how it actualy is, Graves Marksman and Urgot/Jayce Fighter, is the worst clasification i can imagine. And while Fighter and Mage already have some Ap Sustained Damage with Kayle, Kennen, Tf, Azir, Casio, etc - Teemo being a Marksman is just strange too. Teemo realy could be Mage or Assassin, similar to how Lb/Shaco are Assassins.
Players seem to spend a LOT more time on those classifications than we do. They're guides that help us understand the shape of changes we're making/champions we're developing, not a rigid class structure like you'd see in an RPG. The champion is still primary, we still make decisions that we feel are best for the particular champion, and we still value champions that are hard to classify quite highly - it's just helpful for us to also understand when champions are facing shared challenges. So for examples like Graves - it doesn't matter in any deep way how he's classified, because his pattern is unique enough that assigning him a class doesn't help us to find commonalities with other champions; his classification doesn't really help us solve Graves problems. This would change if e.g. we did class-based itemization; it'd suddenly matter a lot whether Graves was a fighter or a marksman. That would also mean that Graves would almost certainly end up being more like whichever group he was classified with rather than being able to mix and match whatever suits his kit best, which is a major reason we don't want to do class-based itemization.
: MY STERAKS BRINGS UGLY DEATH
SQUISH SPLAT YOU WERE A HUMAN NOW YOU ARE RED GOO ON MY TREADS
: Wait....it gives tenacity instead now? The era of my toplane dominion is at hand! {{champion:24}}
Just wanted to get out ahead of this one - we've been testing it on Jax/Irelia/Camille, it may be strong on them, we're comfortable with that.
: A bit off topic but do you guys intend to maybe add a few more toys similar to Sterak's gage? I loved this aspect about class updates where we got a lot more items to play around with and a few more fighter and AP items would be really cool!
Don't really have a great answer to that right now. I know that diversifying some of the more stale item spaces is something we'd consider valuable, but I don't know how that stacks up against other value we can be providing. Right now we're very focused on preseason and especially Runes.
: Isn't it being bonus health already a deterrent to it on Corki? You could even buff the shield further and say "Bonus Health from outside sources" and then the shield would only work with Corki's Trinity (which is next to nothing). Urgot is already one of the few champions that buys the item more often than others so switching it off for him in the HOPES that other people with pick it up seems very.....weird.
I tried a bunch of math-y stuff before falling back to Melee Only (which I regarded as a nuclear option) - none of it really worked. It doesn't take that much shielding on top of 400-450 bonus health to get out of range of a burst threshold and tri force is a health item.
kasfas (NA)
: So does that mean urgot buffs?
It means we'll balance the champion around not having access to Sterak's Gage. Given that he purchases it quite rarely, that doesn't mean automatic buffs.
: {{champion:6}} FeelsBadMan
Urgot has stressed me out while working on this :/ Ultimately, if a champion breaks enough rules, I can't let them hold the item system hostage, and I can't make this item this strong if Corki can use it to gain immunity to assassins.
MagÊ (EUW)
: which part?
The item can only be purchased if melee; if form swapper champs buy it, the base AD and the shield will only work while in melee form. Consistent with Tiamat behavior. (Not fully hooked up yet; Gnar on PBE is presently getting full value) The % Base AD is going to be unique passive shortly.
: Now we just have to wait until ADCs abuse it so Riot has to nerf it for everone else.
It should be melee only on PBE.
YGY818 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fuEk8jeh,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-08-25T02:22:00.953+0000) > > We think the Fiora nerfs did harm. If it was correct to nerf her at all, it should've been a simple damage or base stats tweak. Given the dramatic meta shift immediately after the nerf, and given we were shipping Bramble Vest, it probably wasn't correct to even do that much. This only isn't a total revert because we think we made some small game design gains on not giving the movement speed up front on the R - if this doesn't pan out, we'll likely just do the revert of the nerfs. > > The Ivern nerf was made when his itemization looked quite different. He's doing approximately the kinds of things we expect and he could use a little power, so a tap up here is appropriate. Trying to keep it relatively small, though. > > Jarvan isn't powerful for just one thing - it's how much damage while how tanky. We don't want to see his kill threat go down, particularly not while the meta's still jungle tanks, so we're tapping down the other side of the equation instead. This should still be a net buff as long as he's putting gold into defensive items, relative to before we touched him in patch 7.7. > > Ryze has been horrible for a long time; we're looking for a buff that might get him some spot Worlds play and doesn't do a ton otherwise. We think we need to a pretty meaningful tune-up (we are NOT planning any kind of rework), but it's too risky for pre-Worlds; hoping to ship something between Worlds and preseason. Can you compare Jarvan and Vi? Idk, but Vi seems to be tanky and strong as well...
They have some similar properties, but Jarvan's more comfortable jumping into the center of an enemy team and Vi's more dependent on being able to single someone out, plus Jarvan thrives better with tank stuff while Vi's dps itemization needs are bigger. That adds up to Jarvan being mostly just stronger right now, though Vi can at least compete in more disorganized settings.
Azteryz (NA)
: is this the extent to the ryze tweaks meddler mentioned earlier? and if not could you give some insight into what you might have in mind? meddler said it would be akin to the shen changes that happened earlier this year where you shift strengths and weakness as opposed to functionality
That's a different set of changes slated for after Worlds, still early in development though.
: Does riot have short memory or something?
We think the Fiora nerfs did harm. If it was correct to nerf her at all, it should've been a simple damage or base stats tweak. Given the dramatic meta shift immediately after the nerf, and given we were shipping Bramble Vest, it probably wasn't correct to even do that much. This only isn't a total revert because we think we made some small game design gains on not giving the movement speed up front on the R - if this doesn't pan out, we'll likely just do the revert of the nerfs. The Ivern nerf was made when his itemization looked quite different. He's doing approximately the kinds of things we expect and he could use a little power, so a tap up here is appropriate. Trying to keep it relatively small, though. Jarvan isn't powerful for just one thing - it's how much damage while how tanky. We don't want to see his kill threat go down, particularly not while the meta's still jungle tanks, so we're tapping down the other side of the equation instead. This should still be a net buff as long as he's putting gold into defensive items, relative to before we touched him in patch 7.7. Ryze has been horrible for a long time; we're looking for a buff that might get him some spot Worlds play and doesn't do a ton otherwise. We think we need to a pretty meaningful tune-up (we are NOT planning any kind of rework), but it's too risky for pre-Worlds; hoping to ship something between Worlds and preseason.
: > [{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4AwQWrlE,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-08-10T11:32:14.590+0000) > > Well you don't need to worry anymore because the changes got reverted. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6srf21/89_pbe_update_thunder_lord_orrn_splash_more/dlf3kzy/?context=10000 Not completely reverted. Just not enough time to make the changes right, it seems.
I would characterize them as a successful experiment - we got the information we wanted out of playtesting the changes. We still believe we need to act on Vayne (both buff and nerf), probably won't have time to land them for 7.17 (maybe not 7.18 either, as its the worlds patch, depending on magnitude). When we do ship them, they won't be the list you saw on PBE, some elements might stay, nothing set in stone. There's a serious conversation to be had about whether we're being too permissive of allowing experimental changes out to the PBE - it seems to be causing some fairly dramatic pain and we are able to do those experiments entirely in-house without them going to PBE, we just haven't been prioritizing that.
: @Meddler: thoughts on Adjusted Nasus so far?
From the data perspective, looks pretty good. Still evaluating to be sure it's a mechanic we're happy with, but so far looking pretty promising. If we turn out to need to tone it down, we'd likely do something along the lines of - Reduces Q cooldown by 10%/30%/50% by rank, or only reduces Q cooldown at rank 3. Don't think we're going to have to do either, though.
Áery (NA)
: Numbers were nerfed, slow nerf is next patch or sometime in the future
Numbers were nerfed by hotfix early this week. Slow being melee only and a further damage nerf for ranged champions will go live with 7.15. We're evaluating whether this will be enough or not - there's still a possibility of further nerfs for melee, ranged, or both, but no commitment yet.
: Out of curiosity... pbe thornmail change last patch. pulled? why?
Didn't get any useful data off PBE, but internal playtesting was pretty conclusive. Findings were basically: * There's a possible place in the game for a strong counter item that says "You can't drain tank off me." * At 15% damage reflect + Grievous Wounds, it reads like a damage item - user feels bad about not seeing it do good damage, enemy feels bad about not being able to build lifesteal to counter it. Tried a version that deals 20 magic damage and reduces self-healing by 75%, which did solve those problems - it was clear why you bought it. * At 2000 gold (i.e. tuned to be exactly stat efficient off of armor alone), it was 600-800 gold too expensive to be a good counter item (typically need to be able to pivot onto counters fast), 600-800 gold too cheap to be something you can sit on (2000 gold end point item is hard to make be worthwhile). * Collides pretty hard with Frozen Heart/Randuin's Omen, which also reduce lifesteal quite a lot due to their anti-auto attack properties. Next steps would be looking at a component/final item combo like Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius or QSS -> Mercurial Scimitar, where the reason to buy the final item is because you needed to buy the strong component item earlier in the game. That has some promise, but it also has a lot of risk (may not make the game better) for a lot of cost (at least one new item) and I don't know if anyone will be pursuing it any time soon. For what it's worth, this sort of exploration isn't all that unusual - the unusual part is just that I shipped it to PBE.
DeusVult (NA)
: It's Happening!!!!!
Just to pump the breaks a bit on this one - I had intended to roll this back before it went to PBE, but then a technical snafu sent it out anyway. This changelist is very unlikely to ship as is, there's no deadline for shipping it, and there's an appreciable chance it doesn't work out at all. That said, yes, I'm looking into what it would take to make Thornmail the go to item to for tanky champions who need to counter runaway drain tanking damage threats.
DreamerP (NA)
: So you're nerfing Caitlyn and not touching Lucian??? {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
We're also looking at Lucian this patch cycle.
: Steraks gage where ? Nowhere. Oh that's right it's just a failed item waiting for deletion Edit: just so you all know this comment was posted before any changes to Steraks made it to the PBE. Frankly could be the reminder Riot needed to change it
> [{quoted}](name=Mordepool,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Ejyoz66h,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-04-11T02:49:53.061+0000) > > Steraks gage where ? I agree that it needs love. Not sure if that will happen for midseason or not. We're talking about it.
: Will you guys be touching the armor pen mastery as well in offense tree and if since you are looking at the Hydras, don't you feel Titanic may fall out of favor with the reduction of HP in exchange for higher resists on items
Not touching the armor pen mastery. I'm not all that concerned about Titanic Hydra - even if it does go down slightly, it's quite powerful. We'll obviously be keeping an eye on it and if it needs love, we'd work on it, but I don't expect that to happen.
: While we're at it, can you guys look into Zeke's Harbringer and Talisman of Ascension? Both items are pretty lackluster and bland, especially Zeke's Harbringer. I have no ideas of how to improve Zeke's, except maybe make it so that it is an aoe buff that occurs around the item holder and whomever the item is linked to (much like Taric's ult). but I think it'd be much appreciated by most support mains if Talisman of Ascension built out of Forbidden Idol again instead of Raptor's Cloak. Also Redemption and Locket of the Iron Solari needs to be looked into. I think you should force its active to be centered around the item holder, restrict its usability, and have it so healing/shielding bonus doesn't affect items.
I would like to look at Zeke's at some point, but we haven't got any changes for it just yet. Talisman is more a matter of what lane phase options you're going to buy - the effect is strong, but if Coin puts you behind, you won't bother. I imagine we'll take a look at that at some point.
Adalvar (EUW)
: What about {{item:3508}}? The item is a parallel to {{item:3031}} . Is it not getting any adjustments like Infinity is? Will individual ADC's see changes to their kits to follow with these itemization changes?
> [{quoted}](name=Adalvar,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Ejyoz66h,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-04-11T02:31:47.295+0000) > > What about {{item:3508}}? The item is a parallel to {{item:3031}} . Is it not getting any adjustments like Infinity is? > > Will individual ADC's see changes to their kits to follow with these itemization changes? Currently don't think I need to touch Essence Reaver to keep it relevant on its best-case users. If I'm wrong about that, it's easy enough to do a follow-up change. No individual kit changes to Marksmen at midseason, most likely. I'm sure we'll have to do some tuning once things begin to shake out, of course, but there's nothing obvious enough to justify preemptive changes.
Leonerdo (NA)
: It will probably make BF Sword>Zeal>IE the optimal start on some ADCs, like Jinx, and at least make it an option on others like Cait, Ashe and Sivir. But I imagine a lot of ADCs will still prioritize the Zeal upgrades over the raw damage of IE. This probably puts the nail in the coffin for Essence Reaver too, for everyone except Sivir. Maybe we'll even see some Jhins rush IE. Only time will tell for sure, though. In any case, the Zeal upgrade + IE powerspike will be 200 gold cheaper, so any ADC not rushing BoTRK should be more relevant in the mid-game. As for Runaans, I would bet my best cow that the secondary bolts still proc on-hits.
> As for Runaans, I would bet my best cow that the secondary bolts still proc on-hits. Secondary bolts still proc on hits.
: What about Mercurial Scimitar? I know it's not used primarily as a life steal item, but it gives lifesteal. Are you guys going to touch on that or is it not part of the core lifesteal items/doesn't need to be on par with them?
Pretty happy with Mercurial as a niche buy when you have to have that QSS effect. Lifesteal makes that more palatable, but I wouldn't want to push it back into being your core lifesteal purchase in most games.
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xVnFEmma (EUW)
: Still no Rek'Sai ?
Still taking more time. Really sorry about that - I did a poor job of setting expectations at the outset, and our estimated timeline was wrong by a sizable amount anyway. We're very positive on the direction and she is coming along well, but our pipeline for this scope of work isn't as good as it needs to be.
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