: Riot Novalas did endstep say anything yet?
I read through everything again (I read most of this thread last week but wanted to talk to some designers to get more context), and don't have a lot to say that Novalas already said but here's the major points from myself/some designers I talked to: Nasus can't scale into the lategame with his current kit because ranged champions that can kite him have access to more multipliers than him (IE, DCap, Void, Last Whisper, etc.) and his target access (Wither) is too slow/ineffective to make up for those multipliers. Unlike mobile fighters like Camille that can use their burst tools and target access to delete champions with more multiplier items before they get to use them, Nasus almost always has to enter real sustained combat with enemies to beat them - so to change that, Nasus would need more burst or better target access. One of the things you've pointed out here (flat armor pen on E) would boost Nasus' burst quite a bit, particularly against squishy targets, but the point of shifting the E armor pen from flat to % was that at the time, Nasus was actually much better at fighting squishy targets than tanky ones, which doesn't make sense for the character's strength/weakness profile. Nasus should be relatively target-agnostic in terms of damage to be fair, as when he's better at killing squishier targets he's very binary in gameplay (he gets to the squishy and they die, or he never touches them and Nasus dies), whereas target-agnostic damage allows him to have more actual (sustained) combat against squishy targets while giving him a strategic niche against tanky targets (who he can generally lane against well and handle later in the game if he has %damage/%shred). Live Gameplay does currently have Nasus on their list of champions that could use a buff, and we had some discussion about what he could get - some thoughts about extra sustain (either lifesteal on passive or health regen) to give him a bit more breathing room in the early lane, or increased Q stacks for cannon/large monster/champion kills (to reward him more when he's doing well or going even, plus give him a bit of a comeback mechanic). No current plans to ship any of this stuff, but it's being talked about and might make it in one of the next few patches if one of the Live designers decides to put time into a changelist.
: What makes you say nu-Aatrox is closer to old-Aatrox than nu-Galio is from old-Galio? From what I can see (I started playing after Azir release in late Season 4), Aatrox is the most different rework ever made. Even Poppy, Urgot, Galio, who were very far from the original champion, still retained a number of play patterns and numerous nods to the old kit. E.g. Poppy isn't an Assassin-like hyper-carry with an invulnerability R, but she keeps the wall-stun and the MS buff. Galio kept his taunt and Urgot his position-swap, albeit in different forms. Galio still has an untypical ranged poke for a Tank. Etc. What has nu-Aatrox kept from his old kit? The revive and the sustain, mostly, i.e. not a single active skill. What has he kept from his old patterns? Pretty much nothing, from what I can tell.
Revive, sustain, and the play pattern is much closer than other reworks like Poppy, Galio, and Sion. A rework like Poppy, while retaining her primary role (toplane) completely changed the class and pattern of the champion. Sion's rework changed both his role and pattern completely. Alternatively, Aatrox's pattern is closer to his previous one (given that's still partially a diver), and he's also still primarily in the same roles (top and jungle).
: You make me smile. Such a friendly and cooperative person to know. Love ya man. Edit: Theres also this thread that may prove useful in your conversation as it shows that most ppl kind of agree with some nerfs targeted at him except one https://www.reddit.com/r/galiomains/comments/8qek18/current_state_of_galio_and_what_he_needs/
I'm in agreement with you that Galio could use some help, but not sure Q CD is the place to go if we were to buff him (not that there are any plans to do so). My personal thought is that the more power is pushed into Q the more he's focused on the mage/waveclear/poke pattern which is fine in limited amounts but can push the boundaries of what his kit should be allowed to do safely from range. Not sure what Live thinks, but I'll have a chat with someone over there later and see if they have any differing opinions.
Illuminos (EUNE)
: How do you guys feel about turning Aatrox from a duelist / diver into a juggernaut? His kit seems interesting to me, but I feel something is missing
The reworked Aatrox isn't a true juggernaut, he's more of somewhere between juggernaut and diver. That's still a ways away from what the original version is/was, but I think less far than most people are giving him credit for. Every rework comes with change, some are further away from the original concept and some are closer. I'd say Aatrox's rework is somewhere in the middle, much closer to the original than reworks like Sion or Galio but not as close as reworks like Gragas or Irelia. Personally, I enjoy the newer version more but I can understand that there will be some players that miss the old Aatrox. I feel that the divernaut/juggerdiver approach was the right one to take with the Aatrox rework but I think it's hard to understand how that pans out in game until you've seen it/played it a few times.
: How is Aatrox performing with triforce? Is it a viable item on him? Does he heal off the sheen proc with his e? He seems like he could proc it multiple times with his q and e easily in a fight. Edit: also how good is ravenous hydra on him? He seems like the aoe damage could proc large healing. Thanks for the work you guys put in
Triforce on Aatrox is decent, but not great in my experience (though we've buffed his AS growth since I last tried it, so it's probably a bit better now). He prefers to get BC for the faster CDR whereas some of Triforce's stats are wasted or inefficient (mana wasted, AS is not great as Aatrox's base is very poor). The sheen procs do heal him off the E passive as the E passive works off of any physical damage dealt. Ravenous Hydra is quite poor in my experience as Aatrox doesn't need the waveclear and already has innate vamp, so there are just better items to buy that offer more durability or raw damage like Death's Dance that would occupy the same slot.
: As a Ivern main and now that the champ is finally good again I hope with all these Forbidden idol nerfs you guys thought of giving ivern a small buff to compensate. He just got good again :(
We'll keep an eye on him but I don't expect him to hurt much from those nerfs, at least not the current list - there is a pretty substantial buff to Athene's which Ivern uses quite well and he has no problems buying it first to get max benefits early. Even if he were to get indirectly nerfed a bit he'd probably be fine - he's quite strong at the moment.
: 1. I like the small buffs/nerfs like "+5 Movement speed" and"-3 AD" as it doesn´t give the feeling of making a champ to strong or useless. Why isn´t this done more frequently? As you have more data than anyone else, wouldn´t it be possible to apply those small changes to much more champions every patch to make the champ variety more fluid? Sometimes champs just need that tiny bit to perform well again, or at least be niche pick. 2. Are there any plans to increase jungle variety? Obv AP jungler aren´t in a very good state, and alot of champs who were able to jgl, aren´t rly as they can get abused to easily. 3. Would it be possible that changes will come that would chnage the overall meta since it is pretty much the same since adcs started to go on the botlane. For me one of the main fun factors "back in the days" was that it wasn´t always so clear who would do what and that you would see different strategies very often. :* {{champion:23}}
Those types of small changes are something Live Gameplay is trying to do more of (which is why you've seen that type of change much more in the last few patches). I'm personally a big fan of these types of small changes, but sometimes changes that can seem small can have large implications, especially in conjunction with other changes in the patch which is why Live tends to be careful with them. Even with access to huge amounts of data, it's not always as simple as saying "hey, Mundo is 48% winrate, give him 5 ms," - there always has to be thought/effort put into even small changes, and the more small changes we add to a patch the more it's likely to throw off the other stuff in the patch (if we gave Mundo 5 ms, but also nerfed some of his counters in the same patch, how do we know which has more impact and what to nerf if he's then too strong?). Not sure on any planned jungle changes - I'm not really up to date on those as the primary toplane playtester. On overall meta shifts, there are some things that Game Systems/Live Gameplay are trying to broaden the pool of classes available in each role. You might have noted some experiments with mages in the jungle early this season, which was a first foray into the area - there have been some others since, some with more success than others. This isn't something that we're looking to force, but rather something we want to open up as a possibility in some cases - make more champions available to more roles, but not necessarily shove something different to prominence in particular roles.
DW Diana (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BXPmZYyd,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-31T20:10:41.543+0000) > > Hey guys! > > I’m Riot Novalas. I'm a QA Analyst on Riot’s Playtest Team, a group of high elo players who work on Core Gameplay playing new and in dev content before they’re released. It’s our job to test the changes that our designers come up with to ensure that we’re introducing positive changes to League in terms of both balance and fun. > > Rather than a Patch Chat, we’re opting for a new approach these next few patch cycles. Lots of changes are planned in the upcoming patches and a lot of content is or has been on PBE for awhile. We’d like you guys to talk to us about your questions or concerns with upcoming content - We’ve tested a lot of it and would be more than happy to give you guys insight on how the changes are panning out. If you’d like us to test something in particular out - let us know and we can try to get it into a playtest. > > The biggest changes on PBE right now are the Fighter itemization changes. If you have any questions related to the items on the PBE, ask Riot Endstep who is the primary ticketholder for the itemization changes! > > We’d love for players to get in on this & help the Playtest team make Patch 8.12 launch as smoothly as possible! > > Here’s a link to the content currently on the PBE. > https://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html > > Brandon "Roku" Davis > Chris “Auberaun” Roberts > Nick “Riot Endstep” Frijia > Sigmundur “GangIeri” Helgason > Arnor “Riot Hjarta” Halldorsson > Miktat “Riot Koyuncu” Koyuncu > Brian “Riot Madness Heroo” Pressoir > Nabi “Riot Novalas” Barak > Dan “Riot penguin” Hardison > Robert “ROBERTxLEE” Lee > Louis "nubblez" Carpetto What about the AP fighters? are there any plans for them to get any new items to help them be viable?
It's something I've talked with some designers with (creating some real itemization for AP bruisers), but not something that's being actively worked on or planned for. It would require a lot of work as the AP bruisers that are currently in the game are tuned to have a viable build path in the current game and creating new items for that class would likely require a lot of retuning of champions. Maybe one day, but not any time soon.
Zullar (NA)
: **tldr; For Bone Plating and Spear of Shojin the tooltip should specify if damage reduction occurs before or after resistances for clarity.** **Bone Plating:** Tooltip reads "After taking damage from an enemy champion, for 3 seconds, the next 3 spells or attacks you receive from the same enemy champion deal 15 - 40 (based on level) less damage." **Spear of Shojin: **Tooltip reads "UNIQUE Passive: Reduce damage from champion attacks and abilities by 20 plus 10% of bonus attack damage." Neither tooltip is clear and neither specifies if damage reduction occurs before or after resistances. Additionally they behave differently. According to Wiki Bone Plating damage reduction occurs AFTER resistances, but you say Spear of Shojin occurs BEFORE resistances. If you are going to give them different math mechanics I think it should be specified in the tooltip for clarity. Thanks.
Agreed - was unaware the tooltip on PBE didn't have the premitigation noted, as it does internally. I'll ping the designer and let him know.
Taylor D (NA)
: @Riot Endstep Any word on those potential changes for buffering instant cast abilities? IE: Jayce and Zyra.
Nothing as of yet - investigation is in early stages and it'll be a bit slow as it's a side project and not a main priority for the designer that's doing the work.
: I'm still terrified of Spear of Shojin, I feel percentage resists on offensive items have no place in the game and there's no better example than {{champion:157}} {{item:3046}}. Before he gets it he is managable as {{champion:240}}, it's a skill match up. But the moment he buys it, it doesn't matter what I do, he wins purely through stat checking. Now pair this with spear of shojin and {{item:3047}} and not a single champion in the game could duel him. Do you have any great concerns regarding this item? Or who may buy it? What's the point of the titanic hydra change? Seems like a flat out nerf. I don't think many care if it's a little pricey, but lowering its AD is just silly. How much of Ornn's power budget is consumed by his passive? I know pros use him almost purely for the ult. But for a regular player like myself he felt so crap in lane even if I could stay there forever. His 1v1 is horrid vs just about everyone. So far I haven't vsed one but I think I'd end up devouring him based on what I've seen and who I play. What's the overall goal of the ornn changes on pbe?
Spear of Shojin doesn't give percentage DR - it gives flat DR which is calculated pre-mitigation, meaning it stacks poorly with other DR effects (primarily armor and MR). Essentially, when you buy SoS, you're either committing fully to stacking AD with SoS as your only defensive item (maybe Tabi/Mercs, but those are minor and as mentioned stack poorly with the Spear) or buying other defensive effects like PD with the Spear which actually lower its effectiveness, both in terms of getting less total AD which makes the Spear worse and also making its effect worse since it doesn't scale with other DR effects well. There are definitely some concerns around Spear of Shojin but mostly around champions which can gain huge amounts of flat AD (Rengar, Riven, Jhin) more so than champions that will have/buy other DR effects since those don't stack effectively. The point of the Titanic/Ravenous Hydra changes is to allow fighters to spike earlier/a bit faster in the game - and as a tradeoff, those items are slightly less efficient buys. Currently, most fighter builds have a Hydra in their first two or three items, alongside either Trinity Force or Black Cleaver (plus Sterak's for most Triforce users aside from Fiora). The issue with those builds, in particular with the Triforce builds, is that the items are so expensive that the buys delay the next item spike for an extended period of time relative to other classes. Those other classes hit their item spikes much faster (compare to mages with Lost Chapter items or AD assassins with lethality items). The current thought is that it's not necessarily wrong that fighters as a class have powerful but more expensive items than most other classes, but that the degree to which that's currently true is probably too much - and so the place that's easiest to "shrink" a bit is the Hydras. The tl;dr here is that fighter item builds are probably too expensive right now and it makes it hard for them to compete in the early-midgame with other classes that they should be competitive against at that point. Lowering Hydra costs helps those fighters spike earlier in the game at the cost of some gold efficiency overall. On Ornn, the current changelist is intended to make him less of a universally powerful blind pick champion. The intention is to give him some sharper strengths and weaknesses so that he's not just powerful regardless of the context of his matchup and the game in general. Not sure how much of his power is in his passive - more of a designer question, but I'd say it's a fair amount. Don't have any real numbers/percentages to give but the ability to buy in lane is very powerful when correctly optimized, allowing Ornn to frequently blow through his mana and gain incremental advantages through map uptime rather than through direct interaction.
: Yo, I asked this question earlier but no one answered Why did you guys make conq unique among runes in that it doesnt give adaptive stats? What was the design call? There were a couple champs that I thought it would be good on, but I was hesitant because I wasnt sure if the AD over AP might cost me hard in the early game. The three champs I had been thinking were Singed, Rumble and Morde. After a couple games, I can say I dig it on Singed (in certain matchups) and Morde in general, I dont play rumble anymore
When we were iterating through early versions of Conqueror (originally called Embiggen), the stats given were adaptive, and we found some problematic abuse cases with a variety of champions - mages, tanks, and assassins that were all not intended to be served by the rune. The final shape and location of the rune makes it difficult for those champions to access the power of Conqueror effectively, but there were still enough concerns about champions like Fizz that it was decided not to go back to adaptive. It's something that we might look back at in the future as we understand the rune a lot better now (given it's been on Live quite a while) and could probably make an adaptive version work at some point, but it's not a priority as Conqueror is currently filling its purpose and there's not a strong compelling reason to make it adaptive - likely only some fringe case users that might benefit some from it.
: Pretty sure they were like that from the very rework,idk why.But this QoL change makes sense. Thank you
To get back to you: Sol was in today, and we had a brief discussion about Yorick. He's going to treat the ghouls/Maiden not updating their AD as a bug and he's looking to get a fix in, not sure when it'll be done or ship but he does want to make the change. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Elewd (NA)
: Alrighty i have a couple of concerns about the new item, Spear of the Shojin, This item sounds great on paper when thinking about champions like Wukong, Jarvan IV, and Xin Zhao. However im really worried about how this item will pair up with champions like Fiora and Riven who already build Deaths dance, Spear of the Shojin + deaths dance will make a lot of the bruisers in toplane almost impossible to kill unless they are kited to death and even then it'll be a challenge due to their gapclosers. Is there anything in the devtalks or whispers about maybe making Deaths dance and the Spear have the same Unique passive so they can't stack? I really do see this being an issue. My other question, Is there any news on the balance changes Zyra is getting or is that going to be in the next patch?
There haven't really been concerns here about DD+Spear of Shojin for the most part. We've run it a few times and haven't found it to be significantly better than other Spear builds - mostly due to the expense and build path restrictions on both items, plus the issues of build order. Very few fighters often get DD in their first two items (Riven and Illaoi are the only fighters that realistically can in most games), and they are often more interested in other items for their early slots like Cleaver which pushes back the Spear of Shojin to later in the game (often 4th or 5th item) where the premitigation DR isn't as powerful. Mostly, the issue with the high-AD Spear of Shojin builds is that it's difficult to get a lot of AD and also build the Spear early without making significant sacrifices in your build path. If this does turn out to be the dominant build path for Spear of Shojin users it's something we'd likely look to separate out, though there are a lot of ways to do it besides just making their passives unique so that they can't stack.
Neverduft (EUW)
: I just wanted to report a bug: Nocturnes ultimate doesn't activate essence reaver flare passive nor nimbus cloak.
Will report this, thanks for letting us know. EDIT: Just checked, this is already working internally so should be fixed soon on the PBE if it's not already working.
Häxel (EUW)
: what about Graves who can be fighting pretty close? Also can you say something how the new items feel on Urgot as he is more used to build kidna tanky?
Graves seemed solid with the Spear but has a hard time getting it early since a lot of the items he often buys (PD, Cleaver, GA) don't have a lot of AD on them or don't have AD at all, which is needed to scale the Spear of Shojin. It's more of a lategame option for him than other champions since his best builds are often a bit lower on AD than is needed for a good early Spear buy. On Urgot, I'm a huge fan of Atma's. I didn't like Spear of Shojin too much since I felt like it pushed him too much towards a damage build and he couldn't get tanky enough, but Atma's is awesome since it lets him build a bit more damage than just BC without sacrificing his durability much.
: Sweet thanks for the response. When the item comes out I'm gonna try some trial and error for it in a couple of different builds for jhin. I think it might be good on him if there are a lot of divers/assassins/vangaurds or if they have a lot of long range moderate damage poke, but i wont know for sure until its released. As it is now he gets about 100 damage reduction if he gets 600 ad ( a number not that hard to get) and if at least 3 people are within range that puts it at 300. though this is unlikely to happen it could be a nice item into an ingage heavy comp.
Yeah, the general consensus we got to when testing it on Jhin is that it's a great option against strong dive or heavy engage, but since it's expensive and doesn't offer a lot of raw damage it's not always optimal as most other items give more burst/DPS.
Kadexe (EUW)
: I'm curious about the Spear - if I have multiple on-hit effects dealing damage, will the damage reduction still only apply once per attack?
Currently it works on a "per hit" basis, meaning additional effects that apply on the same hit (like on-hit effects with attacks) are included and won't incur an additional reduction from Spear of Shojin. We tried a version that reduced damage from all different sources (meaning each on-hit would incur its own reduction) and didn't see huge differences but the designer decided that didn't really make sense and changed it to the "per hit" model.
: How do you feel about champs like Jhin, Rengar and Pyke taking Spear of Shoju. Do you think it might be strong on champs who can stack a lot of bonus AD easily. I know it would be a power down for Jhin in terms of his potential damage but it might be worth it for the potential damage mitigation it gives
We saw versions of the item that were super strong on Jhin but the current version has low enough range on the passive effect that we didn't find it problematic. We'll definitely be keeping an eye on him though as he's always going to have the most AD (and thus the highest ceiling) for the item. Rengar and Pyke are certainly strong users as well but we didn't find them to be problem cases at the current tuning. Again though, they're obviously going to be strong users so we'll be watching out for them.
: Hey guys.Can I ask for QoL change for {{champion:83}} ? For some reason his ghouls/maiden dont update their AD after summon even if Yorick's AD changes(Conqueror proc for example) and it would be so cool if they did.
Sol (the designer of Yorick) isn't in today, but I'll check in with him about this next time he's back at the office. Agreed this would be cool to add, but I'm not sure if there's a particular reason why the ghouls/maiden don't already work this way.
: Are bruisers getting any ubdate soon? I heard you are going to nerf tri-force and sterek gage.
There are some itemization changes coming (they're on PBE today) that include some new items - no changes to Triforce as of now, Sterak's is shaped a bit differently so it's cheaper but less powerful (and doesn't synergize as well with Triforce).
DW Diana (NA)
: I really love some of the changes you've put through on the PBE, but am a little disappointed with the Bloodletter Vial being ARAM only. It's an ideal item for AP Divers like Elise and Diana who have really been suffering with the lack of viable items for them for quite some time. Is there any chance of this being released on the rift?
Probably not zero chance, but there's no plans for it. Stuff from other gamemodes like Black Market Brawlers has made it into Summoner's Rift before (Dead Man's Plate is from that mode), so it's not out of the question.
: is there any work for a new keystone for Sorcery? I feel like it's too much MS and not enough mana/mpen
No current plans, but there have been some ideas floating around. Don't think it's likely Sorcery gets another keystone any time soon.
Taylor D (NA)
: When can we expect the Input Buffering changes? Will it finally fix the issue of right clicks cancelling buffered abilities? EX: Zyra Q>W>Auto attack and the W not casting at all due to the auto attack overriding the W buffer during Q cast time. Also on Jayce Q>E>Rightclick makes the gate not cast.
I've actually experienced this issue on Jayce a lot, but as far as I know there's no plans to change this for now. I'll talk to some people and get their thoughts, but this is working as intended as in most cases (e.g. using a movement command to cancel buffered actions). Personally I'd like it if we could change this for instant cast abilities like Zyra W or Jayce cannon E, but no promises. EDIT: Talked with some engineers/designers, there will be some investigation into possibly special cased buffering but again, no promises on anything happening. Thanks for bringing this up though, there's definitely some interest in the topic here, especially as of recently with the buffering changes.
: @Endstep what's your usually Illaoi build? tanky, tanky-ad, or ad? in the last few days i played with a full lethality build in rankeds and it felt so good did you try it? first bc, boots, edge, yoummu, duskblade and guardian angel. I may take guardian angel before if i feel the need here's a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FinaqU0_7yA
I generally go for high AD builds (Death's Dance, Cleaver, Sterak's usually), but rarely lethality. I haven't tried that in quite some time so maybe I'll revisit it soon, though last time I tried lethality I wasn't a big fan. That's some pretty big damage in your clip though.
: I've been experimenting with jungling and focusing different lanes to see the outcomes of the impact my focus to a lane can result in. I know PBE isn't the best matchmaking, but bot focus seems even more important on the PBE with the ADC changes. It feels like the Ardent meta, but instead of funneling gold into the support to get ardent, you funnel all the gold into the ADC because their items are a tad more expensive but do more damage now. It also feels a lot harder to come back from the enemy having a fed ADC as well. Have any of the playtesters felt this way as well?
I feel botlane importance is relatively similar to Live (both of which are very botlane-oriented). I do feel like it's harder to come back from losing botlane but from my observation that's more due to the ADC that's behind being less useful than a live ADC that's behind moreso than the enemy ADC being stronger than they would be.
: can you make maybe a third range tier. For champs like urgot and rakan who like the more tanky side of melee but just happen to have ranged aa.
It's been discussed, but all the designers I've talked to about it are against it for multiple reasons (forcing more item splits/overhead on the item system, higher burden of knowledge, forcing another arbitrary split amongst characters, restricting future design space, etc.). It's something I think that sounds very functional in a general sense, but when you look at how you'd have to implement it the idea is a lot less appealing.
: Posting a comment here just to be on the safe side: @Riot, I'm supposed to tell you from a friend that Trundle's E Pillar Cooldown is too long. Maybe you could revert or partially revert the 6.17 nerfs? His Top Lane win rate -- where a CDR buff would affect him the most -- is currently at 48%, so ... there's a justification if you need a justification. Otherwise you could maybe do it as a favor? Would totally appreciate it. Thanks, bros and gal bros.
Don't agree pillar cooldown would impact toplane the most - historically pillar cooldown has been most significant in botlane as a support. Regardless, I do think he's a bit sad right now in the toplane but too strong in the jungle for him to receive any straight buffs. I'll bring this up with a designer on Live on Monday, but as far as I know no one has plans to change Trundle at the moment.
Flemman (EUW)
: Who is the tank main on your playtest team? I want to know how he feel about all those change with true damage Can you still play all the tank with succes or is it worst than before and only the strong one can do okay with those. What are you build/rune/succedeing condition against a conqueror splitpusher toplane? Also, how does quinn ult work with new essence reaver, proc on activation or on landing (since you just can move with r) and for the last question, are you guys aware of ghost poro issue who sometimes vinish as soon as he pop despise no enemy being in the bush (happen a lot on twisted treeline recently) Dunno if it's a TT bug (like vilemaw icon not following other epic monster rules when donne in fog of war) but it would be nice to inspect since it's a pretty nice rune on that map
I'm probably the most frequent tank player on the team (me or Ender L I guess). Personally I haven't had many issues playing tanks with success just due to the existence of Conqueror - it does mean that you can't hold a splitpusher forever back in the 1v1 but that has not always been a strength of tanks and I haven't found it difficult to adapt to a world where tanks are forced more towards grouping. In terms of build, I usually focus more on health over resists against Conqueror - for example pre-Conqueror I often used to buy items like Frozen Heart or Iceborn Gauntlet on Maokai or Ornn into fighters like Riven or Yasuo - now I'm much more inclined to buy Righteous Glory or Glacial Shroud into Sunfire or other more health-oriented builds that aren't as weak to Conqueror. With runes, I don't change anything just due to the existence of Conqueror. On success conditions, it's mostly the same - don't lose lane horribly, look for plays on the map, potentially look to punish them in lane with jungler assistance. In some matchups it's still possible to win 1v1 (e.g. Shen vs Riven), but you do get outscaled more quickly/aggressively so you have to keep that in mind, especially towards the later parts of laning phase and when lane phase is over. I don't think these matchups are fundamentally different for the tanks except in that you're playing with a timer (to when you can no longer 1v1) and with a lot more punishment for making mistakes. Not sure on the Quinn ER interaction - last I heard it was intended to proc ER when Skystrike was cast, but I can check back in on that on Monday. I'll follow up on the Ghost Poro thing, but without a clip/reliable way to reproduce the issue I don't know how much we can do. Let me know if you have a clip of it happening as I've never seen it.
: On ivern, in the patch notes it said "his early game is a bit too punishing" so why did you reduce his late game cost more than his early? Pre buff: 146.25--->176 Post buff: 131.63--->121 It's strange that you made his late game cost lower than his early lol, even though the same thing happens for his mana cost.
2.5% off the health cost early is a much bigger shift in terms of power than 2.5% later in the game (and the percentage change is the same), but it looks like a bigger number because Ivern has more health late in the game meaning 2.5% of his health is higher. Percentagewise it's just 2.5% less health per camp at all levels, which is much more of an earlygame buff than a lategame one since the earlygame is where Ivern was really hurting in terms of HP and clearing. This is a case where looking at the numbers in the way you have can be deceptive - while you're correct that the change saves "more health" later in the game, that isn't really a good metric to use to evaluate when or how this is a buff to Ivern since each point of HP is worth a lot more at level 1 than it is at level 18.
: What's happened? xD you guys pretty occupied? Overnight i would normally see 46 riot answer on the chat with the playtest team, but there're only 16
We had a pretty busy schedule this week with a few people out so less of us had free time to get responses in. Unfortunately sometimes we don't have the time we'd like to put into everything we want to do.
sho ayane (EUW)
: If an item is added to help break shields, how can we expect that to affect champions who have self cast only shields?
It would depend upon how that item works. This question is too broad to give a good answer since no such item exists at the moment.
: Can you please provide some thoughts/feedback on Urgot? Pretty frustrating to continue seeing him lose item options and get indirect nerfs from the melee vs ranged items/keystone struggles. He is punished for being ranged in the bruiser/juggernaut itemization and keystone (cant use half the items or keystones). Punished/gated from new AD items because of his kit (no incentive to stack AD & AS/MS do nothing because of his W interactions). On top of that his “unstoppable” ultimate is stopped by pretty much half the ability interactions in the game. Suggestion: Love the rework theme, but doesn’t seem like there was much of a plan on the future balance side. If we’re unwilling to address his itemization issues then I think he needs to be addressed with major numbers changes like Gallo was (AD scaling to make AD items attractive). Please let me know that someone at riot has remembered Urgot with all these major game updates.
There's been some discussion about this recently (honestly, the discussion never really stopped from when Sterak's was made melee only). There's some stuff in the works that's hopefully going to alleviate some of his itemization issues in the future, and if it doesn't then I'll keep campaigning until he has a decent build path.
Kobold (NA)
: ?! When was it changed to not count as a basic attack? Even after his Rework it counted as a Basic attack for all other interactions even Agro?
It's never been classified as a basic attack - applying on-hits and being able to crit are separate classifications from being a basic attack. Anything that applies on-hit effects draws creep aggro (Ezreal Q is another one, for example), which is why GP Q has always pulled it. I'm in agreement that the classification here is pretty fine/arcane and doesn't feel correct at all points, but this is the most consistent application according to the rules.
: Can you confirm or deny if GP Q will proc Stormrazor? It currently does not on PBE but there is talk that it is due to a bug.
I've talked with the designer of Stormrazor about this a few times - it's not considered a bug. Essentially, GP Q just applies on-hits and can crit (it's not considered a basic attack), which is why Stormrazor doesn't make it crit, as Stormrazor specifically makes your next basic attack crit. We've discussed changing things around but at as of right now this is working as intended.
Hi Jesus (NA)
: Hello PlayTest team! This is more of a balance question I think you guys could answer; I'm just curious if you have a snap shot view of top lane at the moment. It's a generic question, but as a person who plays high plat/D5 mmr I think it is nice at the moment. I can play off meta stuff like Kayle or play a tanky champ. I'm wondering on Riot's point of view for top lane since I'm not sure if you guys disagree on my view and will turn the top lane meta on it's head. P.S thanks for the new keystone, makes champs like Darius and Jax fun vs tanks.
My view on toplane right now is that there's a decent spread of pickable champions but does feel like there are some oppressive melees (Darius, Tryndamere) that might have too few good answers at the moment. Blind picking is heavily punishable (though that's almost always true in toplane), but this is markedly improved from pre-Conqueror toplane days as tanks don't have the ability to generically neutralize most lanes. This is just my opinion - I don't think that toplane is in a terrible spot but I do think that the ways that toplane interacts with the game are not great in some cases and would personally prefer that there were alternative ways for toplane to influence the game besides committing to a botlane TP or splitpushing the entire game. The champions that do have the ability to interact in other ways (Camille, Kled, Irelia, etc.) are quite strong in the current meta and part of the reason is because they don't have so much difficulty influencing the outcome of the game.
armatsu (EUNE)
: Lets talk about Quinn {{champion:133}} Her recent changes didnt really help. But now her ult more stable With new runes and changes for Bruisers and Fighters her place on top lane is bad She is really depend of her team, she isnt assassin rn May be you can do some changes for returning her on bot lane as ADC or may be JG? I thing she is perfect for JG but need more help with cleaning jungle camps MORE LOVE FOR QUINN PLS :'c
I've had some discussions with designers about buffing Quinn in roles outside of toplane, and there's some interest/potential there but no plans to do so right now.
: Heads up in case you haven't checked the thread again! Riot Endstep answered the Poppy question [here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/oYqIA0zf-pbe-chat-with-the-playtest-team-89?comment=00060000)
Morkaskog (EUW)
: Are you trying to shift Poppy a bit more out of the top lane and maybe more into the jungle or bot lane? These changes imo really just makes her lane worse. Her W change i'd say is gonna hurt a lot when getting ganked, both the movement-speed and resistances, but even the ult i wouldn't say helps much in lane. I don't see the point in Qing while they're in ult as you'd save that for after the ultimate to slow them. If anything this just means i have less time to re-positioning for E after ulting because of the duration change. I don't really see any positives to the changes outside of the range buff on E, which is nice, but the carry range isn't changed which is really why it felt unreliable in the first place. That and that it seemed to randomly not stun when it should. The E is also not really that much more reliable seeing how the movement speed on W is now lower so getting into E range is harder now in the first place. In general i feel like this favours jungle and support poppy a bit, but i feel like the movement speed change will also screw with those two lanes, and top lane poppy will suffer as well because of these changes.
These changes aren't targeted at a specific lane but just at the pattern of the champion as a whole. Buffing utility in favor of raw stats is generally going to favor lower-income roles like support or jungle, but I don't think the current list is enough to make her stronger in those roles than in toplane. The R change is particularly strong in toplane as it allows Poppy to have substantially more kill threat 1v1. Being able to guarantee both hits of a Q and an extra auto by casting R means that your opponents have to respect Poppy's burst thresholds a lot more than on Live (or they'll die during the knockup if they don't flash the R in many cases, whereas with the untargetability in they have a window to use Flash/other defensive tools after being hit by R). I've also just realized that there's a line missing from the PBE data pull websites (it's on PBE, just doesn't seem to be listed correctly): Poppy's passive has +50 range on this changelist.
Veijari (EUW)
: Now that you guys have started fixing the pro vs soloQ-problem of Ryze and Azir, could it be possible to do something like this with (toplane) Shen too? I love the champ but he feels kinda lackluster especially after strong 1v1 bruisers have gotten the conqueror rune.
It's something that I've talked with designers about but as far as I know there are no plans to do Shen work. I agree with you that he often feels weak in soloqueue just due to being nerfed for competitive, but he's an outlier even amongst outliers (as far as champions with soloqueue vs pro issues) and has a lot of issues in that regard. There are definitely some designers that want to make Shen's comeptitive/soloqueue split smaller but not any plans to do so at the moment.
: Some of you guys are bound to have playtested Aatrox by now and I'm assuming his kit is getting close to finished (though I could be wrong); on a scale of 1-10 how fun do you think he'll be for someone who loves Aatrox as he is now? Or is that too much to reveal? ;)
Not much we can say at the moment other than that we're enjoying him quite a bit.
: can we please get context on the {{champion:78}} changes on the PBE? ill take anything but its just so random when shes in a good spot, albeit weak but, you gave reasons for changing {{champion:99}} {{champion:85}} and {{champion:13}} wheres {{champion:78}} 's this is what we want to happen?
I can give some context about Poppy. Over time as she's been nerfed/buffed since release, she's generally had her utility stripped in favor of straight numbers buffs in terms of durability, speed, and damage. This has led to her being a stat-checking tank that doesn't really have the tools to support the play pattern of a stat-checking toplaner - the best tank example of that is Ornn, who (like Poppy) has some windowed damage but has enough consistent threat/uptime to back up that pattern, whereas Poppy's damage is more contextual/unreliable and she's much more limited in her ability to win battles of attrition. In an ideal world, Poppy would be more about chip trading/utility rather than raw durability/speed/stats in general, and this changelist is intended to shift her back more towards those strengths rather than the ones she has on live. Specifically on the R change, that's a straight utility buff that's also intended to help make up for her lower overall numbers since it allows her to guarantee another Q hit while the target is airborne, plus potentially an extra autoattack (just from Poppy, and more from her teammates in many cases). It is often quite a lot of extra damage as compared to Live Poppy. EDIT: I've also just realized that there's a line missing from the PBE data pull websites (it's on PBE, just doesn't seem to be listed correctly): Poppy's passive has +50 range on this changelist.
: check your math, it's actually 6% dmg amp with 30 armor (if i'm not mistaken)
You're correct! That's my fault, I was looking at the wrong column on my spreadsheet - the damage reduction at 30 armor/MR is reduced by ~4.6%, which is effectively a ~5.8% damage amp. Thanks for letting me know.
: What about really low range champions like Urgot? Edit: He has an ability that swaps an enemy behind him, putting them in melee range... AND an ability that slows him when he's pursuing an enemy.
Not every rune can be designed for every champion. Particularly in the case of rulebreakers (Urgot being a ranged Juggernaut when one of the typical weaknesses of Juggernauts is that they're immobile melees), sometimes champions are going to lose out on things they'd like due to the restrictions of their kit.
Erdamon (EUNE)
: I'll be definitely looking forward to that then, and will keep my fingers crossed for you guys to find an appropriate change in the meantime. On the side note, would a revert of 7.12 changes and taking a different approach from there be an option? Like going back to that state, and balancing Rumble around the old very short Q cd but also faster heat decay as the primary principles
It's something we considered (and also tested some internally), but didn't find a good way to make it work - there were parts of it that were appealing but there were a lot of gains from the 7.12 changes that we'd like to preserve if possible.
: so the new conquer rune description tells us about refreshing the damage when you are a melee champion but doesn't say crap about how often it can be refreshed by a ranged champion. Overlook something did ya????
It can't be refreshed by ranged champions, by design. It's inherently easier for ranged champions to stack the combat portion (given that they're ranged and don't have to commit their bodies to do damage to things), and also easier for ranged champions to build full damage (for the same reason), thus the rune gives melees disproportionate benefits as it's intended as a splitpush rune that should be mostly prevalent on melees.
: Do you have any insight on when press the attack is better than conq or vice versa? What about champions like fiora or renekton or nu irelia? I've been playing a lot of renekton lately but I'm still learning, and it's hard for me to parse what his optimal runes are, or what you should use in what situation if it's situational (from pta, to grasp, aftershock, and now conq, I just don't know what to run) I also wondered how you feel it affects the value of trinity force vs black cleaver since a lot of champions with innate true damage or mixed damage just don't build bc. Is black cleaver still going to be very valuable on champions who start using conq? Ie I play a lot of illaoi and I can't do the math but I do know that if you don't need armor pen, dd steraks tri force feels ridiculously good
PtA is usually better against squishies or in situations where you're looking for early pressure/early all-ins (as Conquerer is not very good early on). Grasp is the best rune for raw trading power, particularly in short trades that you initiate, and significantly better if you are guaranteed to have wave control. All these things are true of most champions that have these different options for keystones (Renekton and Kled are the first two that come to my mind). BC is still good with Conqueror, but I do think that Conquerer makes it less essential and slightly less valuable. In the case of champions like Kled that really depend on the CDR from Cleaver to function I think you still pretty much have to buy it at some point, but on other champions like Renekton or Illaoi that have less restrictive builds I think there's a case to delay buying it until late in the game or potentially skip it altogether.
Quackas (NA)
: It's Conqueror with an O rito geez.
Vekkna (NA)
: All of the responses from reds in here (thus far) seem to imply that the 4 second delay is triggered upon entering combat *with a champion,* but that is not how the tooltip is worded in the patch notes or in the wiki. If I'm Zyra in mid lane, I'm constantly in combat with minions. if I have a bunch of seeds out and hit Q, then target the enemy laner with aa, the next 3 seconds of plant attacks will have a 20% true damage conversion. If I can follow up with ER, I'm getting that conversion on the spell damage as well. That works just as well in bot lane. Same deal with Ekko. He's always in combat with minions, so he engages with E and then deals 20% true damage for the entire rest of his skirmish. Ditto Fizz engaging with Q, or Katarina using the aa reset on E to get the proc before catching W and ulting (both of which scale heavily with the AD proc). Are you saying that it just doesn't work like this, or that it *does* work like this and it's just not a problem?
The 4 second delay is intended to stack upon combat with anything (just like Grasp); but getting into combat has costs even if they aren't readily apparent, including in the minion case. In that specific Zyra situation, even if you assume that Conqueror is prepped (which won't always be true), what makes Conqueror necessarily better than Electrocute or Comet? Certainly they will do more damage if you Q>AA into only plant hits in most cases, especially in the earlygame where 20% true damage conversion isn't particularly large damage amp (against a target with 30 MR it's effectively a ~4.6% damage amp, which is pretty pathetic). Later in the game, sure, that conversion is much more valuable but outside of laning phase it's much harder to stack the combat portion and much more difficult to AA, making it significantly more restrictive than something like Electrocute or Comet. All the same things are true in the cases of champions like Ekko or Katarina - the power of Conquerer in early lane mostly comes from the AD, which those champions likely just don't use well enough to make it worth taking given how situational it is later on in the game. I can imagine a world where an Ekko takes it with the intention to sidelane splitpush later in the game, but if it's viable in that scenario then that's more than fine (assuming it's not egregiously overpowered). If the rune is correct to take in these cases, then it may need some changes to make sure that it's not optimal there, but so far we haven't found that it's problematic. EDIT: As pointed out by AnataBakka, the damage amp from Conqueror at 30 armor/MR is ~5.8%, the number I listed (~4.6%) is the amount the DR is reduced by.
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