: League 10 Year - Let's play some games!
Game 5 was a loss, but well fought (sometimes the ARAM gods give you a full AP team comp). Thanks you Heavens Karma, ShadowX74, Fastlich and Regi for the great game. Not playing any more today, but thank you all for playing and happy League 10 year :)
: League 10 Year - Let's play some games!
Game 4 was great, actually did OK on Xayah. Thank you Saint Lazarus, Luxray, Nicholas Paul, and Rikuu for crushing that game with me. Going to start up my last game shortly :)
: League 10 Year - Let's play some games!
Game 3 - my garbage Vlad was heavy, but y'all still carried me. Thanks to PartyPoppers, iMaB3AST, platsplat and Freyja Wion for the awesome teamfight wombo comp. Game 4 shortly!
: League 10 Year - Let's play some games!
Game 2 also a win! Kayle carry and really solid teamfighting yall - thank you Dreamhare, liketofight69, wendystclair, and Princess Pippa for carrying my Vi. Game 3 soon!
: League 10 Year - Let's play some games!
Thanks for the game Staryuu, LuaDotExe, Rhejis, Im Bask. That Vayne Yi carry was something else (and my Sion is way too rusty). Game 2 up soon!
: League 10 Year - Let's play some games!
We've jumped into game but will be playing more after.
  Rioter Comments
: I missed you all
Missed you too Tantram :p
: Karma Gameplay Change Preview
Hi all, I'm glad there are a lot of people really excited about the changes, but I think that I've heard two main negative sentiments crop up. I'll try to address them as best I can.     #\#1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W First, the new Ally-W is a strong effect. We wanted to give Karma a tool which has really great strengths when used effectively - experienced Karma players should be able to use this to the best of its abilities. However, we did very intentionally take a number of steps to try to mitigate these risk factors. 1. We gave Karma her _Souls Alight_ passive to help Karma understand when its valuable for her to use W without having to be on voice comms. Additionally, the flat Cooldown Reduction is applied fairly flexibly, opening up the number of picks that its useful with. We've noticed it feels great with Tanks, Mages, other Supports, ADCs with long cooldowns or mana hungry ADCs, so we're hoping that there are a lot of different viable targets and team compositions that feel nice with Karma. 2. The cooldown reduction applied has a stipulation to prevent outright abuse cases of back-to-back spellcasts (chain hard CC). Karma's W attempts to apply CDR every quarter second, but it will not reduce an ability's remaining cooldown to a point of coming off cooldown within 3s of the last time it was cast. This ensures a "3s buffer" between spellcasts affected by Karma's W. We believe this mitigates most of the straight up abuse cases associated with Karma's W. We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control.     #\#2 - These changes feel like they are shoving Karma strictly into the support role/as a solo-lane Karma player, I feel underserved by these changes This is fair feedback. The biggest, coolest change is definitely the Ally-cast W, which primarily serves to help your allies. I'd argue that Allycast-W has a lot of applications for solo lane Karma, whether that's jungle ganks or teamfights. However, I think something I failed to deliver was the scope of buffs and tuning changes we're planning with these changes (since I did not include numbers). So I'll preview the tuning changes below. **Please keep in mind that these are not final numbers - we may change these drastically depending on initial balance reads from the PBE**: * Base Stats * Move Speed: 335 >>> 330 * HP Regen: 5.5 (+0.55/lvl) >>> 7 (+0.6/lvl) * Armor: 26 >>> 30 * Passive - Gathering Fire * Kindled Spirit * Cooldown reduced on Mantra from damage dealt: 2/3/4 (levels 1/7/13) >>> 3/4/5/6 (ult ranks) * No longer halved on auto-attacks * Now works against large monsters * Now operates on a charge system * Karma gains 1 charge per 7 seconds, to a cap of 3 charges * [NEW] Souls Alight * Karma can see an indicator for her ally's total basic spell cooldowns * Q - Inner Flame * Mantra - Soulflare * Bonus Damage: 25/75/125/175 (+30% AP) >>> 35/105/175/245 (+45% AP) * Detonation Damage: 35/140/245/350 (+60% AP) >>> 25/110/195/280 (+45% AP) * W - Spirit Bond * Cooldown: 12 >>> 16 * Mana: 50-70 >>> 70 * Damage per tick: 30/55/80/105/130 (+45% AP) >>> 50/75/100/125/150 (+60% AP) * Mantra - Renewal * Healing (per tick): 20% (+0.01% AP) of missing health >>> 15% of missing health + 25% AP * [NEW] Ally Cast: * Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s). * Mantra - Harmony * Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally. * E - Inspire * Shield: 70/95/120/145/170 (+50% AP) >>> 75/100/125/150/175 (+55% AP) * Move Speed Bonus: 40/45/50/55/60% >>> 35/40/45/50/55% * Mantra - Defiance * Shared Shield Percent: 30% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets * Shared Movespeed Percent: 100% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets We believe that solo lane Karma is properly served by the base stat changes, adjustments to AP ratios, and relative strengths of the Enemy-W cast as a alternative option, but we will definitely see how these land and make sure that solo lane Karma players feel like they can play their champion effectively. However, I will reaffirm that proper choice of which cast of W to use in a given situation is an important skill for Karma in any lane - good Karma players will exercise the proper decisionmaking, both through the modal W cast and Mantra choice, her signature spell.
Vekkna (NA)
: >I hope that Karma mid will still feel like a good option for you (since we've got tunings that should support that playstyle well), and please let your voice be heard if that's not the case when the changes land. This is exactly what happened with Zyra's update. I've been doing that since 6.9, and all I got was gutted plant hp. After Zyra's update she was nerfed seven times, and *not once* were those changes even playtested in midlane. Is there some reason to believe this is different than when 20thCenturyFaux promised that Riot was "committed to balancing for both lanes?"
I can't really say anything about other champs, since I've only worked on Fizz and Karma. By the end of the Fizz process, I got the changes in a place where I think the majority of the Fizz players were happy, but of course not all of them. I aspire to take the same diligence in making sure Karma is in a good place.
: Thanks for the answers. I get the mana/cooldown thing, but shouldn't it then work with all ressources, i.e. energy? I'd rather have bonus damage than bonus root. The extra root serves no purpose... RW used to be the perfect trading tool? > _However, at the end of the day, when we put the shield bomb with the AoE shields/MS, the proper tuning would make this ability feel pretty weak (and different configurations added complexity with little gain), so we needed to choose between Shield Bomb and AoE shields. We made in the call to go with the version closer to live, since more live Karma players are attached to that, than the power of the old shield bomb._ Okay, erm, sorry to sound rude, but did you play Karma 3.5 to 5.10? RE maybe "felt" weak to the inexperienced, but was comparable in damage to RQ. All the time. It was never a balance problem. It works perfectly well with your new passive. This is the reason Karma players couldn't shut up the past 3 years. They had shieldbomb for 5 years. It was her SIGNATURE spell. And it was taken away without a word. Now you justify NOT reintroducing it, because it "feels weak"? Are you kidding me??? Also why the hell would you value the 3 years, that caused an endless wave of rage, more than the 5 years of Karma having the spell, and it WORKED? While now it is the source of countless unresolved balance issues? Even your rather neat shield-capping is only a result of this mistake... I honestly don't get it...
To your points: * Ideally, it would work with all resources. Honestly, that's a bit tricky to implement to cover all future resources. It doesn't give energy right now because energy refund is honestly quite powerful - a lot of champion's burst windows are balanced around a certain energy pool, and Karma being able to freely donate that might create some incredibly powerful picks that overshadow most others. * The objection to bonus root in favor of something else (like damage) is fair, and I think a matter of taste on the skill. I know folks who don't really know its there, some folks who really like how strong it is, and some folks who don't care for it. * The issue is that pre 5.10 Karma's R-E was a pretty large part of her power budget already, in not a great way to meet our goals around diverse Mantra choices. We'd likely need to significantly nerf it past where it was. I really enjoy her shield bomb as well as a spell, but at the end of the day, I can't sacrifice the thing that a lot of current Karma players really enjoy for my own preferences.
: I feel like i'm the only person that wishes you guys just turned her into more of a mage. I really prefer how fun Karma mid is and also the power a mage brings. For me Karma's lore (so far) defines her as a leader and as someone with a lot of power. Hopefully this is still in beta and you guys can somewhat manage to turn her into more of a mage than a support lol. + I was hoping Karma would've gotten a full rework since her last rework was some what like 7 years ago? but this sounds like a Ezreal kind of rework :c a little disappointed {{sticker:poppy-wink}}
I object to the notion that supports aren't powerful leaders! But that aside, I think you'll find midlane Karma to still be strong. If you're looking for a gold income stream, I'd actually suggest trying AP carry Karma bot - it can be surprisingly effective.
: "Most players play Karma as support" well DUH, it's because you guys pushed her there and made her E so strong that her mid lane was destroyed basically. She was in mid before you guys did that. So can you see why people are frustrated? You guys do this to our favorite champs. Morgana, Zyra, Karma. All mid lane mages until a couple took them bot, so then you all were like "let's just make them supports then!" I am a level 7 mastery Karma so I know how she does in the bot lane. I will be skeptical about these changes until I can play her both mid and support and see how she fairs.
I get the frustration, and I'm sorry that the changes aren't delivering more for you. I hope that Karma mid will still feel like a good option for you (since we've got tunings that should support that playstyle well), and please let your voice be heard if that's not the case when the changes land.
: Hey NeuroCat, These changes are interesting, but I am quite concerned that you guys are only pushing changes on her for her support role. Mind you, before her failed "mini rework" and then being pushed into the support role, she was a mid lane mage first and foremost. Why are there not any changes besides the Mantra Q damage higher on initial spell the only ones for her mid lane play? Just like Zyra and Morg, you guys keep pissing off the mains that had been playing them for their mid lane play, where they started out in the beginning before being pushed bot.
I think a fair amount of the tuning changes will help mid Karma feel pretty good. Regardless though, when we started, we identified support Karma as the primary audience for the changes. Most players play Karma as support, and there are more support Karma mains today. This is why the biggest changes focused on the supportive W cast. (I also like to think that the change restores some duality back to Karma's kit, but that's more waxing philosophical than anything) However, we know Karma is played in many roles, and we actually think this will open her up to more! With her passive changes, she now has a "not-great-but-not-completely-impossible" jungle. Plus, she's actually pretty effective as an AP carry in the botlane. I'd suggest giving it a shot :)
: Oh boy. Well, I promised you honest and kind criticism, so here we go. **Design Goals** I think you nailed those. I would have had some additional ones, like unifying the fanbase and stuff, but hey, I am just a nostalgic internet smartass here. # PASSIVE _Kindled Spirit_ - That sounds interesting. It kind of shoots jungle Karma in the knee before she happened, but I guess it's a healthy form of capping the insanity that is the endless RQ barrage in late teamfights (or endless RW healing). Good thinking! Reserving actual critique for after playtesting tho - numbers can mean a lot here. (But the way it looks now, spellweaving AAs is kinda dead right?) _Souls Alight_ - No idea how that is feasible without cluttering UI, but... I guess you have to make it work for W? # Q and RQ Frontloading the damage to the initial explosion makes the second part of RQ even more pointless than before. Do you want to keep unreliably one-shotting squishies being a thing? I think it's the most unhealthy part of her kit, but I guess people like lobbing hadoukens >_<... Not a fan here! # W Yay for ally function. Confused about the rest. To me this feels like inviting people to find gamebreaking combinations with her (sounds fun!), which then requires Riot to balance everything around the ideal case, making it ass in most other lane-combos (no fun)... Isn't this like the opposite of what you tried to do? You know, "not making her too strong in coordinated pro play" and stuff? _EDIT: I fear people flaming Karma for pairing with "sub-par" champions already. Like "WHY DeFuQ do you pick Karma, when I am ASHE? DO I LOOK LIKKE I NEED CDR YA NUWB???"_ # RW Please explain to the Soraka mains out there why granting mana to others is a good idea for a champion in LoL. And to me. Because I am confused. I like how the heal ratios are a nod to old Karma, but - as you know - I have expressed continously how opposed I am to missing% heals on mage champions. I reckon this is a compromise in favour of tank-Karma players, but I have always felt like tank Karma players would prefer to play her as a bruiser anyways. Like: reasonable survival chances while doing useful stuff. Also this heal would've been perfect for making her heal OTHERS with. Just judging by the values here. What happend to bonus damage and bonus root tho? # E and RE Yeah, not gonna lie. Extremely disappointed in the "no-shieldbomb" thing. I mean, you didn't explicitly comment on this, but not seeing any trace is not a good sign for me. People love and miss the shieldbomb. Splitting the Shield/MS sounds incredibly interesting, even if it feels like a nerf for teamfights. Could be a buff in duo lanes. But without shieldbomb, without 5-man-saving, without 5 man speeding, I reckon all Karma players have chance to hate this spell. As they say _"That's a bold move, Cotton!"_ # OVERALL Positively Surprised about those Gathering Fire and Renewal ideas. Thrilled to test them. Disappointed in the lack of shieldbomb. I for ONCE would have loved to see a Rioter adress why it was justifyable to remove a signature spell from a champion (that they had for _5 years_ ) without giving any reason and then have it return on another champion. Like, wtf. I also don't know if you achieved your goal of making mantra more of a decision. Sure, RW is now more applicable in fragile builds and more useful for supports, but RQ seems to be even MORE tempting for glass cannon builds to be the only mantra to ever use, and RE still is the only spell profiting from heal/shield increase... dunno if it's worth it anymore tho. Going straight AP seems nearly better now, depending on how RW behaves. But that's too value-y already, let's see that stuff on PBE first. Greetings, your friendly neighbourhood Squid
Thanks for the feedback! I know you care a lot about Karma, so I appreciate the thoughts. With respect to your questions: * The mana restore wasn't intrinsically bad on old Soraka, but there was low opportunity/resource cost to it, and it existed in a pretty different meta (sustain heavy). Mana is on this ability to help pattern-enablement (cooldown isn't valuable if you can't cast your spells). * Bonus Root is still on the RW! Sorry, I accidentally omitted that from the description. Re: Shieldbomb - I had a feeling this would elicit the most negative feedback. I mentioned this in another post, but I tried to test the Shield Bomb a fair amount, and it actually played pretty well! It added more thought to the placement of the shield, given its positional requirements. However, at the end of the day, when we put the shield bomb with the AoE shields/MS, the proper tuning would make this ability feel pretty weak (and different configurations added complexity with little gain), so we needed to choose between Shield Bomb and AoE shields. We made in the call to go with the version closer to live, since more live Karma players are attached to that, than the power of the old shield bomb.
: > [{quoted}](name=DrBrainzzz,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=TkiBEVYV,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-10-24T17:04:46.534+0000) > > How does she see her allies cds? Is it like Dota 2 where you click on them, or is there some indicator window? Maybe have small icons of said abilities under the hp bar. Would hate to have to look at the top left to see it because I made my UI small as possible to see everything happening on screen.
We're figuring out the final visualization, but this is similar to the version what we've been testing.
: I feel that the new W alone could make Mages more viable in the bot-lane again. Seems quite interesting so far.
Yeah there are a lot of really fun combinations I'm excited to see folks experiment with! We've certainly had fun testing different lane partners internally.
: Hey Naomi can I hear your thoughts on bringing back Karma's shield bomb
Happy to. I know shield bomb was a pretty big request from a part of the community, so I tried to get a good amount of testing in on it. The mechanic actually tested pretty well - it created more thoughtful usage around the R-E since the target's positioning is more important. However, putting the shield bomb together with the shared shields, either the version we'd ship would be really anemic (since we'd need to tune it appropriately to have both effects on the mantra) and feel bad to play with, or exceed the complexity bar on the spell. So we chose shared shields similar to live in favor of shield bomb, since we believe that's something that current Karma players enjoy about her, and would want to see stay on the kit.
J Eevo (EUNE)
: Seems like a really bizzare niche for that W. Do you shave off the CD gradually or instantly, does it work retroactively - because if so, is karma supposed to for example just W Karthus every time she sees him just so he can ult sooner? I honestly think it's really interesting from a game design standpoint, but kinda... lame from a karma player standpoint. casting W on an ally isn't interesting or exciting, and if it turns out to be a chore I'd rather it not exist at all honestly.
Its applied gradually over the 2s link duration. I'd give it a shot on PBE honestly - the read of it I think is less fun than the actual play of it.
: > When she is tuned appropriately for the average player, she can become dominant at the pro level Isn't that like a common theme though?... {{champion:266}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:12}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:427}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:429}} {{champion:38}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:113}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:29}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} I think there's a much deeper problem here that extends far beyond Karma.
Honestly, I agree with you. Not sure how to solve systemically though.
  Rioter Comments
: Thanks for trying all the things NeuroCat! I'm not terribly surprised the tests didn't fully work out. It is very interesting to see the spirit form versions. I had not thought of those ideas. The last implementation feels like it might work well on Morde of all things. Clothesline was the biggest part of old Karma that necessitated a rework. It's worth noting that it worked best with _melee_ champions in duo fights. Imagine a Xin or Irelia whose dashes put them into or past the enemy model. W procs immediately and off stuff they already want to do. A Garen just runs past with Q dash speed, procs, then Q Es on a slowed target because his Q (iirc) doesn't put him into the enemy model. In contrast ranged champions with dashes had to put themselves greatly at risk to utilize the slow and damage of W. Something that could win a trade if they knew to do it (cause they'd also be close enough to shield bomb off of, so you'd get 2 extra damage spells in not just w). But as you said, burden of knowledge. They wouldn't and so old Karma support had a terrible time with terrible peel and only being able to use 40% of her kit. So I do want to ask._ Did you test a handcuff shape?_ By that I mean, a tether between two targets and a small radius around both being the hit zone. And by small I mean small, like shorter then sunfire cape radius. There's a huge difference between having to run past an enemy (especially with champions being circles) and having to run _into_ an enemy.
Yep, all of the iterations had this.
: Reav3 said that you’re only on the team for a small amount of time?
Ah yes, Karma will likely be my last champion project for awhile. I'll still be doing game design, just not actively on League champs :)
: @Riot Neurocat Did you guys try bringing back old Karma's Mantra Charges? Maybe weakening them but giving her back two charges. Or were you guys focused on trying to make the clothesline spell work out?
I've tried a lot of things. Hopefully I can discuss more in the future :)
: Neurocat, is there a reason why you’re not gonna be a permanent addition to game design? I guess I’m confused as to why this is just a temporary thing.
: Thank you for the insight. That looked really fun! Just out of curiosity tho: Old Karma was able to tether to minions and wards. I wonder if this would have made a difference for the first tether version?
I had tried this in a couple of the iterations. It created more unintuitive interactions than compelling gameplay.
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot NeuroCat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rnvO7uGw,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-18T23:48:41.384+0000) > > I appreciate the love and the passion you have for Karma (I'm very excited to see what we can accomplish together). Its a bit early to start talking about changes, but I'd agree with a lot of the assessment of the world today you called out. Yeah SilverSquid definitely has passion. However do remember there are a lot of us who don't talk about karma who do enjoy how she currently feels and plays. We may be quiet but don't forget about us.
Of course! I'm going to be spending more time listening than posting generally, so when I do have changes ready, having your feedback is really important for us making good iterations.
: Yeah, I reckon the most sensible approach would be, to first get a feel for the champ, the community, the issues and the potential. The brewing comes a bit later, at least for me. But whatever your way, I'll happily stroll along.
Took a look at your other posts btw. I appreciate the detail you go into on Karma's current state/opportunities. Having this level of feedback from you and other passionate Karma fans will be invaluable.
: An Open Welcome Letter to RiotNeuroCat as the Person Working on Karma
I appreciate the love and the passion you have for Karma (I'm very excited to see what we can accomplish together). Its a bit early to start talking about changes, but I'd agree with a lot of the assessment of the world today you called out.
: Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE
Hi folks, quick update. Based on feedback and further testing, we're adding a bit more power to his W early. Plus, we're stripping out the bleeds that Q and R add to further streamline his kit and free up some situational power. **Changes** * Removed the bleeds on non-primary targets of Urchin Strike (Q) and all targets of Chum the Waters (R) * W Active Bonus Damage: 20/30/40/50/60 + 40% AP >>> 40/50/60/70/80 + 40% AP Also, we fixed some bugs where his W active duration before hitting a target was 2s instead of 4s and his on-hit damage was higher than intended.
: Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE
Just an update, we're looking to ship these changes in 8.14 - I'll let y'all know if we change the numbers, but they don't seem too far off.
: Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE
**6/29/18 Update** Some minor changes based on feedback and testing we've observed. Looking to make the windows around uptime/downtime of the W more normal/defined, cut the cooldowns a bit, and compress his damage a little more. These will probably land on the PBE next week (whenever the next build is). **Changes** * W On-hit Damage Buff * Duration: 6 >>> 5 * Damage per Hit: 10/15/20/25/30 + 25% AP >>> 10/15/20/25/30 + 30% AP * W Cooldown: 18/17/16/15/14 >>> 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 * Now starts at the end of the Buff duration
Talinis (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot NeuroCat,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=dLyjyRT5,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-06-28T18:18:19.060+0000) > > Fizz gets a lot of power from the W cooldown reset, and we want to keep that since y'all really enjoy that, but it needs tradeoffs and clear windows of downtime for the opponent when it does get activated, so the cooldown can't be too low. That being said, I'll likely be reducing it in the next iteration, but having the cooldown start after the on-hit buff expires, rather than on-cast. > I don't understand how the W cooldown reset "provides a lot of power". Like, I can get behind some of what is said but this makes very little sense. There does not need to be trade offs and here is why. Old fizz W was 10 seconds level 1. At max CDR, the CD was 6 seconds. Fizz W had 6 seconds of uptime. At max CDR, there was no CD, it was permanently up. With current iteration, at best, it's a net neutral change and at worst, you'd have to add power to his kit from his old W version to make up for that fact because the current reset is actually weaker than the old version if you keep anything close to the current cd. Fizz was and always has been gated by his E and Q cooldowns in his ability to go in because he is a pure melee champion. He isn't a ranged attacker or have ranged attacks like most other champions. If he can't gap close then he can't auto. The W CD is just unnecessary punishing and very bad on a champion who already has super long early cds for a melee. Every single AD champion is not punished for using their AD enhanced regular autos and the current PBE version of fizz is basically that, using what is basically the AP version of AD auto attacks. How about Akali and her Q?? THe moment it falls off she can reapply the mark. What about Kayle??? And both of these champs can apply it at RANGE. There is no need for the "downtime" window on W and if there is one, for it to be very short.
The power from it is mainly coming from the amount of stability and wave control with relatively little cost he gets from a reset on the W. Most other champs need to pay in both mana and cooldowns when they use their spells to help control a wave or manipulate how it is pushing, whereas Fizz has a lot more flexibility. Him using his W active to last hit doesn't come at any real cost, which means his uptime on "able to trade effectively" is pretty high (all other factors equal). Add his passive, which also lets him navigate around/trade within minion waves with less penalty than other champs.
: Hey, I'm gonna copy/paste this from the Reddit thread: The CD is actually deceptively short. The 6s duration is I believe longer that it's lasted in the past and because the cooldown currently starts on cast, it scales extremely well with cdr. At max rank and 40% cdr it'll only have an effective cooldown of 2.4s, so it actually has 71% uptime, and even more if you account for the time it takes between hitting W and getting the initial hit off. Coincidentally if the cooldown started after the buff ended and lost 6s base cooldown to compensate, the downtime would actually be twice as long at max cdr at 4.8s. ___ The CD is going to probably change to after the buff ends instead of when it starts, which will benefit low cdr and nerf high cdr depending on the new numbers. To prevent the cd change from being a nerf the cooldown will have to be reduced by more than 6s. Something like a flat 7s cd reduction would buff early and nerf late game, or a change like 6s off rank one scaling to 8s off max rank would keep the cd close to the same at all times.
: What are the passive dot values now and what are the full changes to the passive? Also does W still have an aa reset on cast? I will be checking this out, so i will refrain from commenting too much at the moment. Things I noticed so far are that the W cdr is way too long. 12 sec with used W rank 1 to 8 sec rank 5. With 40 CDR it's 2.4 rank 5. Seems a bith high for an ability you max second, but I'll have to test it. This is all assuming cdr starts when fizz uses it, like old fizz. Also old Fizz had 5.4 sec cdr adn could perma use it, which he might need now too with the lack of strong bleed.
Everything is the same, except the stuff noticed above. So DOT is the same, AA reset and damage on W activation is the same.
Murr Wurr (OCE)
: Wow these changes look absolutely amazing guys! really looking forward to trying them out on PBE thanks so much.
Landorin (NA)
: I like this approach a lot better than the last one. Will give it a try tonight and give feedback. One thing I notice immediately is that the cooldown on W is extremely high now. I understand the reason (not allowing 100% uptime at high CDR), but it seems to me that it maybe shouldn't have an 18 second CD at level 1. It gates his trading in lane by a lot and if you mess up a CS with W, you're now a sitting duck for 18 seconds instead of 10 like on live. 14 flat CD seems like it could be a happy medium. The other thing I want to bring up is the small shark. I understand the reasoning for its existence, by right now I think it is too punishing and using it is literally never the direct choice unless you are against Yasuo (otherwise it is always better to back off and throw the shark later). Any chance of looking at flattening the ult damage a little bit across the 3 sizes?
Fizz gets a lot of power from the W cooldown reset, and we want to keep that since y'all really enjoy that, but it needs tradeoffs and clear windows of downtime for the opponent when it does get activated, so the cooldown can't be too low. That being said, I'll likely be reducing it in the next iteration, but having the cooldown start after the on-hit buff expires, rather than on-cast. We're focusing on W alone right now, so we can isolate the effects of the changes. Changing too much at once can make it unclear as to what effects different changes are having. For example, I bet that melee sharks will be more useful in this version, since Fizz can get a lot of damage out now if he sticks to the target, and his melee shark can give strong and long CC.
: This looks like a much better starting point, awesome! Some questions: 1. Does the cooldown start at the beginning of the 6 seconds or after the buff ends? 2. Is the DoT still the same? 3. The ap ratio seems a bit low but this is probably because the damage is frontloaded a bit on the initial hit having a .4 ratio, right? What's the reasoning for scaling the ratio with level, and does it make W max better? Some thoughts on possible changes if they're needed: 1. Without the W mark, I think the Q applying DoT in AoE is unnecessary. Maybe this could be traded for a bit more damage on the DoT itself? 2. Any thoughts into changing the ult at all? I feel like the max range shark eats up a lot of his power budget atm but maybe that'll be less true without the mark. Edit: Also, do you think it'd be a good idea to keep that trident mark above people that have the DoT ticking just to make it more obvious that it's on them, or would that be confusing since it would have a different function that it does on live?
To your questions: 1. Right now it starts on cast. I'll likely be reducing his W cooldown and starting it when the buff ends in the next iteration. 2. Yes 3. He still has the 40% AP ratio on the active on-hit, yes. And the ratio doesn't scale with level. Its just 25% AP. I removed the trident icon, because it does have a pretty clear tie to the charging bleed on live. Plus pre-rework seemed to do fine without it (just the bubble animation). Happy to give him a smaller trident icon if the clarity turns out to be poor.
SeeKerŻ (EUW)
: I didn't try yet but if numbers are too low, you should avoid touching the base damages and up the ratios more. Something like 45% like old fizz had instead of 25%.
That's the plan. Two things that might not be clear that makes the damage look low: * He still has the 20-60 + 40% AP on hit when activating like live. * His Q applies on-hit, so he can use it to close out some damage
  Rioter Comments
: Fizz Change Heading to PBE
Hey all, I want to thank you for all the feedback being posted. On these Boards, Reddit, Youtube, Twitter - we've been listening to your thoughts on these Fizz changes. Our initial goal with the new W was to make a lightweight change and see if Fizz players enjoyed a different input for W. But from what we've heard from the majority of Fizz players, you enjoy the current live W over the experimental changes. So we're going to be pulling these changes out from PBE. If there is a clear opportunity for the right Fizz changes in the future, we're open to it, but we don't want to force changes to live that Fizz players don't want. Thank you again for your input. {{champion:105}}
: Fizz Change Heading to PBE
**6/21/18 Update** First, I want to thank you all for the feedback, especially for you who have had a chance to try him out on the PBE. I'm trying to read it all, even if I don't have time to respond to it all. I'm going to try to summarize the broad themes of feedback I'm hearing from you all, and my brief thoughts: * **"Revert Fizz's W to pre-Assassin Rework"** * We aren't planning on doing this, since we believe that this model isn't particularly healthy, especially with a high AP assassin. While I agree that the deceptive damage and 'whittling-you-down' feeling around the empowered bleed do feel "tricky" and playing into Fizz's nature, we ultimately want to make Fizz's windows of power and burst more clear and consistent to Fizz players and opponents. * **"Make Melee Range Shark Viable/Revert the Shark changes"** * We aren't bringing back the old R, but we intend to make your melee range ult a bit more effective with these changes. In the case where you do land a melee range ult, you can unload your W burst immediately, which should make this case feel more powerful/give you more options. * **"Will this change make Tank or On-Hit Fizz crowd out AP Assassin Fizz?"** * We will be trying to make sure we aren't shifting too much power away from AP Assassin Fizz. You'll notice in some of the changes below we're shifting more power into his AP ratios. * **"His Damage Seems Low"** * From the PBE testing we've seen, we think his damage numbers are around where we intended, but it doesn't feel as impactful, due to the missing health execute damage on the second W. I'm trying an iteration below where we remove this in favor of just flatter damage on his second W. * **"Without the W reset on kill, his laning/farming under turret is going to be terrible"** * We tried some iterations of the new W with this, but they either had really unintuitive interactions or gave him a lot of strong wave-clearing power with no real downtime for his opponents to play around. So we aren't currently planning on adding this back, but want to make sure his laning phase and ability to farm still holds up without it (even if it might be less safe to just farm with it under turret). Below I'm increasing the mana refund on his W, and I'll be looking for other ways to increase his farming ability if we find it insufficient - keep in mind, the second cast is free, so this change will effectively make it mana neutral for him to last hit with it. Here are some changes that will land on PBE tomorrow: * Mana refund on kill with W: 10/14/18/22/26 >>> 15/20/25/30/35 * W2 Damage: 35/50/65/80/95 + 50% AP (+0-100% increased damage based on enemy % health missing) >>> 35/50/65/80/95 + 90% AP Thank you again for your feedback so far. Over the weekend, please give it a shot on the PBE and let me know how it feels. I'll likely have another update like this sometime next week.
: "Awkward an Unintuitive" To... hit once, wait, and hit again? Im sorry, but i fail to see how a doublecast with lockout (I know is the same amount of damage) is more intuitive, specially if you put a condition to remove the lockout with the shark. And even then, it's a nerf on the damage, considering you'd get the triple amount of damage if the target has low health, rather than this being a set flat amount. If you wanted to poke, you simply WQ'd into the enemies and then jumped out. {{champion:105}} _Hmm... Something's Fishy_ (edit: I remembered that lich bane exists and this could help you proc it twice, so my point for damage is invalid. Still, it does not seem more intuitive)
I'd encourage you to give it a shot on the PBE and see how it feels (more or less awkward/intuitive). To give you an idea, the cadence is similar to last hitting a minion with W on live and it getting the cooldown reset. In terms of damage, I think it should be higher when they are low health, but we can always tune numbers if things are off.
: Do you ever think we will see an increase in the DOT damage?
We played around with actually removing the DOTs from the rest of his kit and making his second W apply a really strong DOT - this didn't feel great in testing. The issue with DOTs is its hard to make them feel good and still be balanced. Most of the dots in our game are tied into other things or have some strong base damage/scalings to make the damage feel good (Teemo, Malz, Darius, etc) - you'll notice that these champions also have their kits strongly focused around the DOT. Hypothetically speaking, if we wanted to shift Fizz to be more strongly focused on his DOT, we'd likely have to shift the focus and power in the rest of his kit as well. So to answer your question, not likely IMO (unless we more strongly rework him)
Aaravos (EUNE)
: By removing the reset mechanism are you planning to reduce his cooldown a little, maybe 10-8 to 8-6 or something or giving him a bit more extra ad to help him farm under tower? His laning is naturally very weak and the current w helps him to grab some cs even under tower. It seems a bit painful to farm and lane (at least on mid) with this w. Will the new w still incrase his aa range like the current one? Are you guys planning to change his current w animation to his crit animation? it would be sweet. Can you reintroduce the old ult interaction with black shield and void shift? (preventing the slow and the knockup but not dropping his entire ultimate, those are not spellshields)
We'll monitor to see how his laning is. With these changes, I'd imagine his lane bully potential goes up significantly while his farming under tower case is less safe. His second W is functionally identical to first W, except different damage. No plans to change his animations right now and I believe the interaction with Black Shield/Void Shift working similar to spellshields is intended (though I'm not an expert on that specific topic). Sorry.
Kadexe (EUW)
: Why can't his ult be reverted to deal the same damage at any range?
The ult changes in the Assassin rework created healthier counterplay for opponents and introduced some elements of decisionmaking, so I don't think we're looking to change those anytime soon. However, you'll notice with these changes that Fizz's burst case from melee range ulting someone is better, since you don't have to wait for your mark to prime (and instead double cast W instantly).
: Hey NeuroCat, how do you think this change might affect Fizz's TTK, are you happy with it?
I think it will be lower overall, especially past the early game, given the 1s lockout vs 2s to charge the mark. However, if you want to get a kill early, unless you've already chunked them out, you'll likely want to weave some autos to cancel around your W casts, which should increase the TTK in those scenarios where you optimize damage.
CritDoge (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot NeuroCat,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=huEn04VG,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-06-20T18:41:33.928+0000) > > He still has a dot, just doesn't have the "charging" mark that he applies with autos/R. > > Delaying Fizz's full damage allows his opponents to play around it, so we want to keep his time-to-kill in a range that still feels fair to opponents. Items change the equation a bit (e.g. Lich Bane), so its probably more fair to look at different gameplay situations holistically. > > I'd encourage you to try it on PBE if possible - I actually think his damage is a bit high in this version right now, especially early, but we'll see how it tests. I'm happy to jump onto the FizzMains subreddit. I feel like this change removes a lot of clarity for how his opponent should be responding to him. Before, with the trident mark, it was clear that once that thing filled, you should either get out or be prepared to eat a large chunk of damage. With this, it will feel like "Huh he did a chunk...and then he did another chunk for no reason." I greatly dislike this cast paradigm, and would recommend you seek a better alternative. Honestly, I don't really see anything wrong with the trident mark system other than "it makes people who played pre-rework Fizz not like it anymore," which is not necessarily a problem, because pre-rework Fizz was an awful balance nightmare with untargetability, a dash, and an AOE slow all on one ability with a low cooldown. I played Fizz both before and after the rework and while there was some adjustment period for post-rework, I honestly felt like it was more interactive to play, and felt a lot better when I could time a W+Q right as the mark matured as they got knocked up by a max-range shark.
I agree that the Trident mark is a very clear visualization of the damage, and likely any version we do in this direction will be a clarity downgrade from that. However, we believe that since the first chunk is significantly lower than the second, we can probably solve the clarity around big burst through additional VFX/SFX if needed. Fizz has a limited window in which to recast the W, so the play around case is to beware the second W once you see the first W come out.
Murr Wurr (OCE)
: Could you explain the logic behind removing the CD reset of his W after killing a minion? A lot of Fizz mains actually liked this change and it greatly helped getting through tough laning phases like Azir, Ryze, Malz, Brand etc. I just feel like his laning phase either playing agressively or defensively have been severely weakened by this change.
The CD reset on killing a minion did feel really good to play with I agree, so I tried to keep in on the ability is long as I could. However, different iterations on the new W with this either had really unintuitive interactions or gave him a lot of strong wave-clearing power with no real downtime for his opponents to play around. So we killed it, but want to make sure his laning phase still holds up without it (putting power into his scrapping vs his passive farming ability).
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Riot NeuroCat

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