: PSA: MMR no longer shields you from demotion.
Some of these systems are pretty complex, so I'll have to lean on another designer for more info. Will update this thread once we have more information about whether this is the same as before, intended, etc.
: will it be a different MMR by role or will we have almost the same one everywhere?
It's a different MMR per position, but they're linked so we can make sure weird things don't happen, like you end up in a Diamond game one game and a Bronze game the next game.
jaser00 (EUNE)
: How much points do you get after every win, is it the same amount as LP or is it a whole diffrent system
It's about 20 per win, more when you win in a secondary or if you get autofilled I believe.
Selec (EUW)
: I'm just gonna expose my case so you can take your own thoughts. I've been playing mid since forever, but I rerolled to ADC this season because that was my innate most comfortable role. But when you're playing ADC, the way you play the game is way different than playing other roles. You're playing like in "ticks", you adapt yourself to those ticks which represents your attack speed and your moments of doing damage and your moments of position yourself. No need to talk about kiting and priorize autoattacking over skills, so I'm now much more accurate using autottacks, but less using skills. When I get filled in Mid, I'll be facing an opponent that is used to use skills, to think about the value of those skills more properly than I do, and he's not playing with the "ticks" mindset that I'm playing with. That's gonna result in a huge disadvantage against them. Of course we don't know the exact difference between your "filled" rank and your "main" rank. Let's suppose ie you're Platinum 1 with ADC and Platinum 5 with the filled roles. I'd find myself having a hard time playing against a Platinum 5 "main" midlaner if I'm getting filled. And I'm considering a role that I played a lot, if I get into jungler, a role that I never liked, the difference would be much higher.
There are a lot of factors that will be different between players depending on their amount of experience in a position, how long they've been playing, etc. We bundle all those things together and look at things in terms of your win rate. We know you're at the right MMR/rank when you win about 50% of your games in that position. If you're losing more than that, we know you should be lower and we can adjust accordingly. That should generally help compensate for the potential issue you're mentioning, but if you still have questions I'm happy to go deeper on it with you!
Larriet (NA)
: >Dynamic Emote - 500pts You earn a split-themed emote that dynamically matches your tier. We’re still working on making it update when you rank up, so look for that a little later this cycle. Even while the Emote is dynamic, once the split ends, it will be finished, right? And then there will be a new emote for the next split?
Yep, it gets locked in at the end of the split.
: As a master-diamond player and a player since season 3 I find positions ranks will just bring more problems than the actual ones that they intend to fix . In my opinion having a overall a rank is a core piece of league and dividing it in 5 just feels weird climbing with specific roles. Honestly u guys say that feedback is important but actually I don't see it happening . https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/06/dev-addressing-your-feedback-on-ranked-for-2019/ . As u can see in that link the comments show clearly that the feedback about this change is not positive it even has a comment made by a rioter with 179 downvotes. I can´t find the link of a post in reddit about this but I can remember it was not really positive aswell. U guys can go just through all posts mentioned above that feedback is always the same (negative). It is actually the first time I post some feedback on the forums since I started playing cause I find this a really heavy game change to the ranked system that will actually take alot of players to start quiting slowly. Im not gonna go in depth about this cause there is already player's feedback in the threads/posts that they are supposed to give feedback, so please listen to the community. Thanks in advance !
Hey, just wanted to say I really appreciate your feedback. I talked more about my thoughts on this in another comment and I think it's really relevant to your criticism as well. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/bdBcjHbB-position-ranks-and-split-rewards-coming-to-pbe-today-for-92?comment=00150001
Chaoxx (NA)
: I heard earlier in the process that mmr will be linked for each rank, but what is the point of separate ranks if you are multiple divisions difference in different ranks, but are placed in with a set mmr whichever role you decide to play? I feel as though there will be little point playing the roles you are worse with and have a lower rank if you are just playing with other players in the same scenario since you are matched based on mmr and not necesarily your rank.
The key is that the MMRs are linked but they're not the same. They're mostly linked so we can avoid situations where a player might be Diamond in one position and then somehow get matched into Bronze games in another position. That doesn't make sense, so we put some restrictions on it behind the scenes.
Aaiyrin (EUNE)
: So about this role swap. I just wondered how the rank gap between duos would be calculated. Last season if I was plat i couldn't queue with silver players. But say I would get Plat as Support and Silver in any other role. I could queue as Jungle with a player that wanted to play, say, mid (as primary/main role) having a Silver rank. Then we could queue without a rank gap. In champ select i could then swap to Support and we both would play our desired roles. Now I know it has been stated, that frequent swapping would result in a matchmaking closer to my best rank. So at some point, I'd get to play a Plat game no matter if I'm silver in all other roles except one. But I would still be able to play with that one person if i chose a silver rank in the lobby? How does this affect the other persons game? Would their rank affect the game, would their role still be taken into account? And if so, would i win less LP, and they more?
We use both players' highest positions to handle duo queue restrictions.
: > You earn a visual upgrade to your Ranked Armor that dynamically matches your tier and lasts for the rest of the season. So you can get these upgrades at all elos? I.e can you have a visible gold upgrade, plat upgrade, and diamond upgrade at the end of the season? multi color armor?
The upgrades will always match your current tier, so no rainbow armor. Our artists would've taken my lunch money T_T
Sangy (EUW)
: Since you can now rank in multiple roles can challenger players now get into challenger 5 times with each role or is only their highest rank shown?
Position ranks turns off at Master+ and you have a single representation of your position on the ladder.
Cosnirak (NA)
: These new ranked rewards are really crappy. Summoner icons are essentially worthless if they aren't your favorite icon atm (and I suspect most people will never consider any such icons worth displaying), ranked armor is worth about the same or maybe even less, and an emote that just displays your current tier is only very slightly better than an icon or just as worthless if you have enough other emotes you'd rather use (which I suspect will be most people who have that many other emotes period). I would trade all of these rewards for each of these tiers of ranked points giving me just 1 RP a piece instead. Yes 3 RP a season > these rewards, it's not even a remotely close call for me. Honestly I'd rather you just not even make these rewards if they're going to be so bad and put the time and effort of the Riot employees that would go into them into nearly anything else that improves the player experience instead. I'm generally a fan of you at least trying out this new position rank system as I think it could turn out good (though I also definitely have my doubts). And yet these rewards are so bad that I feel compelled to reiterate this point even further. That you would even propose them is a little insulting. You can do so much better than this.
I'm sorry the rewards don't hit your standards or get you excited about playing Ranked, but I appreciate the feedback all the same.
: Wish you guys weren't so hellbent on shoving this down our throats when so much of the community has made it clear we don't want this.
Replied to this sentiment a bit in another comment. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you! https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/bdBcjHbB-position-ranks-and-split-rewards-coming-to-pbe-today-for-92?comment=00150001
: "We aspire to be the most player focused company in the world" - Riot Game back then What has happened to this guys? I went thru all of the posts that were strictly about the positional ranking (including this post on the boards) and what I saw is nothing but pure negativity towards the idea. 1-2 positive comment next to 10s if not 100s of negative ones. Either you need to give glasses to the person who said that we like the idea or you need to fire that person altogether. I'm sorry, but if this change goes live, a lot of people will most likely quit playing ranked (or League altogether), including me. Riot made a ton of bad stuff over the years to help cover the other bad ideas instead of removing/fixing them. You tried to make role picking reasonable with autofill instead of removing the feature. (which is fine, probably even better this way) The balance folks ruined the smart part of the game by taking away everything related to vision (pinks revealing stealth, green smite, sightstone, etc.) just because esports wasn't good enough. I'm basically the second support as a jungler, I should be getting autofill protection for every single game I play as jungle. But this update is different. Ranked with these updates was bad, but still playable. But when this goes live on EUNE, the amount of people who int autofill games (which you don't take care of, since the report system is a pile of trash for anything other than chat) will at least double. You asked for the opinion of the community, you got replies from every region indicating that they don't want it (including NA which has a lot less inters compared to EU), so please man up and say that okay guys, this was a bad idea, we're scrapping it. Please!
I can see why it might look like we're not paying attention to feedback or being open-minded if you're looking at feedback through the lens of Reddit/boards comments. I want explain why that might not be the entire picture: - Reddit and boards are communities that tend to bias toward certain qualities (mostly western, etc), so they don't provide a clear picture of our entire player base even though they're large. As a result, we have to look at additional data from surveys to understand how players feel about things we're working on - Players are significantly less likely to post about how they like a feature. As a result, oftentimes neutral-to-positive sentiment gets under-represented compared to negative sentiment to a large degree - Hopefully we've shown through posts like [/dev: Addressing Your Feedback on Ranked for 2019](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/06/dev-addressing-your-feedback-on-ranked-for-2019/) that we're definitely listening and making changes All that aside, we want to test out position ranks because we really think we're onto something. Right now, it's super frustrating to play off-positions because those games feel less winnable. As a result, even if you otherwise _want_ to play multiple positions competitively, you feel like you can't because the games won't be fair and your rank will suffer. When we look at win rates for off-positions and how frequently players play off-positions in Ranked compared to other queues, we can see those are real problems. Positional matchmaking and position ranks gives us a shot at fixing those and giving players a lot more transparency and insight into how good they are at different positions. We totally agree there's a chance it won't work out as intended, which is why we're testing the ability to revert position ranks in case of any major issue, technical or otherwise. We're not afraid to scrap work if we make something that's genuinely bad, but we believe position ranks is a legitimate upgrade to matchmaking and the Ranked experience. We're open to being wrong, but we plan to see how the previews go before concluding it's not feasible. Thanks for your feedback, really appreciate you taking the time to write it up.
: how does this interact with role swaps in champ select? Thanks for the post <3. will be testing!
We detect when you've swapped positions in-game and give you LP for the position you played. There are systems in place to detect if you're doing this frequently to try to abuse the system, and matchmaking will start matching you closer to your best rank for all games until you swapping as frequently.
  Rioter Comments
: Hi Ed! Like your stream. 8)
  Rioter Comments
  Rioter Comments
: Will we see position ranks in pre-season?
We'll likely test them on PBE; they're coming to preview regions on Live in 9.2 with the season start. We'll announce which regions closer to that time.
set435 (NA)
: Grandmaster change does nothing to bronze/silver/gold/etc, the grandmaster change only affects high-elo players as of 8.24 BUT since the time of arrival for iron has not been announced here, Im assuming that iron will be out before grandmaster comes out, so probably in the start of 8.24, people with low mmr will be placed in iron after placements
Iron and Grandmaster, along with other changes, are both coming in 8.24.
: Since Iron is below Bronze, I doubt anything will need to be done. People will backfill into Iron from Bronze naturally.
New players also start at Iron, which lets us test that one easily.
: Since they're removing all V tiers from the ranks below Master, my best guess is that all Bronze 5 player get turned into Iron 1. Though it's the other 5's i'm wondering about. Will a Silver 5 become a 4 or a Bronze 1?
Bronze V becomes Bronze IV, Silver V becomes Silver IV, etc.
: How will iron implementation affect those currently in bronze or silver?
Players who are in Division V of a tier will move to Division IV until the standard season reset.
  Rioter Comments
: Is there a chance you guys would lets us have an overall rank in addition to position ranks? With an overall rank that is affected regardless of role, people wouldn't be able to hide behind "Not my main role" or "This game doesn't affect me so I don't care" type of excuses because it now would matter. I also like the idea of having all ranked games you play matter. You would have to try if you get an off role because it will always affect your rank. Overall ranks could use the system we had before tiers and promos and stuff. Promos are already stressful, do we really need to have "double promo series" be a thing? Also thank you for the promise of not shipping ranked changes if you guys don't think major issues are fixed. Nobody wants another dynamic queue disaster, and this shows you've learned from that.
That's certainly something we have talked about in the past as an option, but our current solution is a little different. Look forward to hearing more about it in the next dev blog. Thanks for the feedback!
: Hi, I have a little bit of concern about the ranked rewards. I see that this has been brought up before in this thread, and that a new reward type that reflects our end-rank this season is being developed to go alongside the changes to the border system. However, I still feel like there might be some issues with the new border system that should be brought up regardless. This change obviously feels good for people that reach new peak ranks next season, but it feels sort of bad for people that reach peak ranks in this current season. For example, I just hit Master tier for the first time, after ending last season in Diamond 5. I don't play ranked as much as some people so it feels like it took a lot of time, and a lot of emotional investment as well. Knowing that I will probably not have a Master tier border going into next season makes me a little sad. This is particularly an issue for people that reach any peak ranks this season that are higher than whatever the Placement cap will be next season. It'll take longer for these people to "reacquire" their loading screen border. In the name of giving solid feedback, I've tried to come up with some potential solutions to this issue. 1) You could make it so that the rank displayed in loading screen is your end rank from last season, until you reach an even higher rank, at which case it will update dynamically as originally planned. Basically, this version is that your loading screen border will never be lower than your previous end rank, but can be higher. This rewards people who pushed themselves this current season, and it rewards people for pushing further in the next season. 2) Apply the previous solution, but only in Unranked queues. Ranked queues go forward with using the border system that Riot proposed. This allows borders in Ranked to keep their theoretical use as a completely accurate representation of a user's current rank, which is a feature of the system that my first proposal neglects. Arguably, Normal queues are far less serious and thus the border being an accurate representation of current rank isn't as necessary, and it should be fine for borders to be a bragging rights thing in these queues, rather than using the "higher of two options" system. 3) Keep the currently active system in Normals, use the Riot-proposed fully dynamic updating system in ranked. Similar to my second proposal, this keeps the idea that the borders in Normals are for show, while the borders in Ranked are an actual display of current rank. Unlike the other two proposals, this option removes the need to invest time into engineering the "higher of two" system. Drawback is obviously that reaching a rank higher than the border displayed in Normals might feel bad as you have to wait until next season to see it updated. These are just three ideas I had to make the border changes possibly feel a little better. It's entirely true that if the new reward is cool enough then further changing the border system isn't "necessary", but even still if there is room for improvement in a system then it should at least be considered.
Thanks for sharing all your feedback and ideas. We're still working out how we want to do all the new borders/emblems and how we want to treat previous-season rank, and every bit of feedback helps. :)
Haman (NA)
: Can you elaborate a little bit on the idea for ranked borders next season. I'm a little worried that if i were to climb to diamond this season, the only benefit would be the mmr and not the border that i would be getting, if ranked borders are based on current rank next season.
We'll be sharing a little bit later on, but our current thinking is there will be a prominent display of your previous season rank on the loading screen and other locations.
AtomToast (EUW)
: Hey, what would you think of adding like a general background mmr that influences all position ranks? Maybe not all equally but like if you lose alot on your offrole you also get a small damper on your lp gain on your main and when you do well you gain more etc. Or are there any downsides I am not seeing with this?
That's basically what we're doing - we'll go into more detail in the next week or two about how this works. There are some trade-offs to doing this, but we think it's generally positive since it reinforces the idea that when you're improving at any position, you're also learning transferable skills like how to play the map, vision, etc.
Soníc (EUW)
: Solid update and addresses a lot of the concerns. I think a lot of the Ranked playerbase do worry about the separate ranks for separate positions as its far more open to abuse. Also fears of extended queue times (because autofill can't exist with this proposed system, otherwise games/matchmaking would be all over the place, right?) and other problems do hound the potential of a new system. Its not that I don't want to express my skill in multiple roles but I don't feel like it would add anything to the experience as a whole. Most of us already play 1/2 roles religiously and dedicate ourselves to playing those roles, with the added pressure or option to queue up for different roles, why should we be spending more time perfecting/honing our craft in different positions for another rank. It's also going to cause potential toxicity for only being a high rank in certain positions, perhaps more hatred towards Support, just because they are "only Diamond" in Support. All the other changes im on board with, but I just can't see the position ladders working properly without really big problems and a more negative experience over all for Ranked.
I think your concerns are pretty legit. For high skill players who want to focus their efforts into one or two positions, that's fine and we aren't planning to do anything to discourage them from doing that. There are a lot of other players though who play their heart out, eventually hit a wall where they don't feel they can improve, and don't have anything else to pursue in Ranked that they feel is meaningful. We want to give those players better ways to continue challenging themselves. Good call out on how players might value different positions. In general, players might choose to pursue multiple position ranks to legitimize how other players view their skill.
Tilt SZN (NA)
: How will placement matches be? Do we have to play 10 games in that position?
You'll play ten in a position to get your rank, but you'll get a provisional rank after the first game that only you can see.
Coyote (NA)
: One thing that worried me was the grind this year. If we work hard to get a specified border this year, wouldn't it just become void due to the new ranked border changes? (You get your new border instantly when placed in season 9 , which replaces your season 8 border)
Nope - we're working on a new reward for your previous season rank that will accompany your current season rank.
: What about the overall match making system? One of the bigger frustrations of playing ranked right now is it always feels like the same formula. For example, go on a 10 game win streak, get matched with players who are tilted and inting, then a 10 game loss streak. Going through this cycle over and over is not fun. It makes matchmaking feel very calculated to the point where a lot of players now expect these streaks even when not on tilt.
We're making some changes to support Ranked that may help to alleviate some of this. We'll probably be able to share more when we go into our deep dive on the matchmaking and rank changes.
: Since I'm killing time. Copper is a useful metal but weaker for the purposes usually given to Bronze-Gold. And sounds more pleasant than 'wood'. So my mind hasn't moved from **Copper for the lower tier**. Last week I tried looking up synonyms for a term weaker than Challenger and Masters but none really fit nicely so I figured finding something rarer/more precious than Diamonds would make the most sense. Wikipedia has a list of the most precious metals being: * Rhodium * ~~Platinum~~ * ~~Gold~~ * Palladium * Iridium * Osmium * Rhenium * Ruthenium * Germanium * Beryllium * ~~Silver~~ * Indium * Gallium * Tellurium * Bismuth * Mercury The biggest issue I think is most of them, being rare metals, are a shiny silver color. So you need it different than Silver but still impressive. And most of them are so bleh with names you could just go with Titanium/Steel and be happy. Rhodium is easy to pronounce and is more commonly heard of. So for the **upper tier, I vote for Rhodium, and perhaps Bismuth**. If you don't mind making a hyper shiny silvery metal, Rhodium could work. Bismuth, being rainbow and angular, has a lot of border/art potential. Only real issue with Bismuth is it's also a B like Bronze.
Holy crap? You're a god. Thank you so much for doing all this. :)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot SapMagic,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=QTXRJ9fj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-05-24T15:51:09.463+0000) > > One thing we are planning to do differently next season is to have all new players seed into Ranked at a lower MMR than they do today and begin their climb at the lowest tier. They&#x27;ll climb out very fast during placements if they&#x27;re actually good. These two changes should at least help your situation a bit. That's great news! Can you correct me or confirm: The most frustrating experience for me is climbing into silver only to be placed into bronze in the next season. I thought I read that one we place in a division next year, that's the Lowest division we can be placed in? So if you finish in silver, that's the Lowest division you could place assuming bad placement matches? 2 seasons ago it took me around 450 games to climb out of B5. This season it was significantly less, but I wish I had spent the games I played digging out of B3 in Silver 5, which is where I feel I should have been placed. Thanks for the reply!
Next season, the first game you play will determine your "provisional rank" which only you will see. It will be similar to how the system works today in that you will be placed lower than where you/the system actually think you should be. The reason we do this is because we make a lot of changes around preseason; in addition, lots of players come back and others might take a break. It's an opportunity for you to re-prove yourself. The difference next year is your placements should get you closer to where you ended the season by the time you complete them. You won't be able to lose LP during placements since we think your rank should be higher than your initial provisional rank.
Kyunsei (EUW)
: "Swap abuse" isn't really an abuse if you compare to the current system. In the current system, you can "swap abuse" by using a smurf account, and play with a friend. Your level won't be the one the system take into account. So I highly doubt backing off the whole project for something you can currently abuse is a good idea.
You're right that players can do this today through smurfing. We're considering that separately, but we probably won't do anything about it as part of these Ranked changes. We agree in terms of overall match quality vs. today swapping isn't actually a huge issue, but we know it's a big concern for players and we think we have some pretty reasonable ways to solve persistent abuse of it. One thing to consider is that since this doesn't require creating a new account and leveling it, it becomes a little more accessible than smurfing is today. Thanks for your feedback!
Scuttle (NA)
: please need hint just lemme know if there is a tier below bronze and maybe if it's called wood pls
LOL. Wood...rhymes with good, right? :D We don't know the names yet, but we'll share them when we do.
: Well you seem you got a good start to this and are investing the time to make it the best it can be. I just want to know what the names of the new tiers are. (Hoping for Copper at the bottom and Rhodium for the near Diamond tier)
Thanks! Ahhhh, keep hitting me up with those awesome names - we're working on finalizing them now.
Dragfin (NA)
: Positional Matchmaking is why position ranks won't ship because there is no way you can solve that problem as evidenced by your failure to offer any current solution or reason like you did answering the other questions. It simple means you don't know and have nothing in the works at all. Oh and the word grind was created by the lazy casual and because there are so many of them it stuck.
Hey there! The goal of this post is for us to make sure we heard all the key pieces of feedback and you understand what's next for us. Since we completed this post, our team has settled on solutions to all of these. We're in the process now of getting the next dev blog ready, so hang tight! If you read the next one and feel like we haven't addressed your concerns about matchmaking, reach out to me directly and I'd love to have a chat with you!
: My biggest worry was the swap abuse as well. Have you given any consideration of how to best adjust matchmaking so in the bot lane you don't have a recent Ranked player with less than 20 games paired against another Bot lanners who has triple the amount of games? I'm okay that it happens from time to time, but it's super frustrating when you get a player who is either Auto filled or Choses the ADC/Support role but has little games played in that specific role. Unfortunately I don't' know what to suggest to combat it and I also concede we all must start somewhere. I really hope that at some point all new players to ranked are auto placed no higher than Bronze 3. A couple times this year I've been paired with a guy who is only wining 47% of their games, yet they were placed in Silver5? A few times last season and a couple already this season considering the 4 bot laners on both sides, I've either faced a player who had significantly less games in bot or with BOT lane champs. And it's no fun for any of us. I don't like to wreck a person who has no idea how to play the lane any better than I don't like it when it happens in the lane I play. I'm hoping these changes will address that somewhat. I'm eager to see how these changes bear out and thank you for adjusting the ranked system, I think it's a step in the right direction too.
One thing we are planning to do differently next season is to have all new players seed into Ranked at a lower MMR than they do today and begin their climb at the lowest tier. They'll climb out very fast during placements if they're actually good. These two changes should at least help your situation a bit.
: Can't remember if it was said anywhere but has it been decided on where the new tiers are gonna be and what they might be called?
We're working on that now and we will share more in one of our upcoming dev blogs!
AlorsAzir (EUW)
: I would very much like to know if you would be prepared to pull position select from season 9 should you fail to guard against abuse cases and lack of competiveness due to off-rolling ? At least temporarily if you can't figure out a working solution before the season start.
Definitely - we haven't decided this yet, but we may even consider strategies for rolling out the feature more slowly (one region first) or testing position ranks for a single split and then making a decision about whether to leave it on after that. In addition, if we don't believe we are able to solve the concerns players have, we won't ship position ranks next year. Period.
  Rioter Comments
: I have "dodged" twice in Poro King in one day. The first was because I didn't lock in a ban (because I didn't want to ban anyone) and the second was because I was looking at Runes and didn't lock in. Rito pls
Bans work the same as our other modes - you need to at least hover a champion or click none. We'll increase the finalization phase timer though, it's way too short. :)
: Poro King game champ select needs to give you more time to set up Runes
Totally possible that this was just a miss on our end from previous times we've used the mode. I'll ask our guys to bump it up to match draft modes which I think is currently 35 seconds. Should give you some more time to figure out how you're gonna cheese the enemy team.
Thryale (NA)
: but see, I'm perfectly okay waiting 10-15 min for queue to pop as long as I'm guaranteed to play in the position I selected. Shouldn't you at least give us the option to individually disable auto-fill if the individual is okay with higher queue times?
I talked about this a little bit in another comment - allowing players to opt into waiting instead of autofilling can have a snowball effect on matchmaking times that we've seen before when we've tried experiments aimed at changing Autofill. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nAk7zwQT-dirty-change-riot?comment=001e0004000100010001 Check this out! It's actually super interesting and was initially surprising to me.
: I would like to know what the standards are for MMQ, Agency, and Game Quality. How do you measure these? With matchmaking speed it is fairly straightforward, keep queue times on average less than X time with Y variance, but with Agency and Game Quality it is somewhat more nebulous.
There's some pretty technical and sensitive stuff there, but I can speak about it broadly. When we think about agency, we measure things like how often you get autofilled, how often you get your primary, etc. For game quality we unsurprisingly look at a combination of MMR distribution across teams and other factors. We have measurements for all these that we track on an ongoing basis.
Zalmez (EUW)
: @RiotSapMagic I was against auto filled in the start, but I've gotten used to it and started taken a liking to it kinda. But there really isn't a way to know if someone was autofilled. It would be awesome seeing a autofilled icon. I think it could kickstart the "I see you got autofilled, which role did you actually want?" conversation. Especially important in ranked I would say -- Zalmez
This comes up from time to time. A potential concern we have with this is that it could actually lead to players bullying other players by targeting them and saying things like, "we're losing because you suck at X position and got autofilled" and things like that. Not something I'd rule out for the reasons you mentioned, but worth noting.
: I have a question. So when I queue up I always pick Primary: Top and Secondary: Fill. I would say about 80% of the time I get my Top roll. Now, here's where the question comes in. Do I typically get top because 1) nobody wants top or 2) because I'm super lucky and players actually want to play support or 3) I get top and some unlucky sap gets auto-filled into support even though he doesn't want support one bit? This confuses me because I hear all this complaining about no one wanting to support so I keep my 2nd role open just in case yet rarely do I actually end up in support. Would it be also possible that, in fact, no one is, indeed, picking top so my primary is overriding my secondary not allowing me to ease the support pain?
The system tries reasonably hard to give you your primary position - in most cases, it's above 80% of the time which correlates with your experience. If we can't give it to you, we'll start looking at your secondary and autofill you if it has been a while and there are some positions in high demand at the moment. If you just wanna play whatever we need, queue up as Fill and you'll probably see your game distribution change a reasonable amount. It could also be true that in your MMR bracket support isn't as high demand, so you're getting assigned other positions.
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot SapMagic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nAk7zwQT,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-11-16T02:02:13.004+0000) > > As far as we have been able to tell so far, this looks like it could be a bug in the UI rather than something wrong with Autofill itself (although that is possible and we should look into it). > > We haven&#x27;t intentionally changed any behavior of Autofill - we&#x27;ve checked a few cases where players reported the symptoms you mentioned and in those cases we saw the players were actually protected even though the UI said they weren&#x27;t. > > We&#x27;ll continue to investigate, but I just wanted to make it completely clear any issues here aren&#x27;t intentional and we&#x27;re working on identifying and fixing them! Why is it that almost any time someone dodges in lobby you get automatically autofilled? Has been happening since your introduced it
As far as I can tell, there's nothing in our system that does that. It might be the case that it feels that way and it's especially painful because you were just in a game where you DIDN'T get autofilled. It really sucks when that happens. There are probably some optimizations we could make there, but they aren't super high priority for us at the moment.
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot SapMagic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nAk7zwQT,comment-id=001e00040001,timestamp=2017-11-16T19:08:10.033+0000) > > Autofill is tricky. You&#x27;re right, we should probably do more to make support a compelling position. That might not fix the problem though. The entire population of players isn&#x27;t as homogeneous as it might seem at first. At some MMRs and times of day, we have more than enough supports in the system but not enough junglers or top laners. Position distribution also varies by region. > > {{champion:74}} ****Warning: we&#x27;re about to get pretty technical.**** {{champion:74}} > > Strictly speaking, Autofill isn&#x27;t the only solution to position starvation, but we believe it&#x27;s the best one we have thought of so far given our goals. To understand why, we have to dig into the tradeoffs of matchmaking in general, which are matchmaking speed, player agency, and game quality. > &amp;nbsp; > > --- > > **Matchmaking Speed** > How long does it take from the time you click Find Match to when we transport you to Summoner&#x27;s Rift for an epic five-on-five clown fiesta. Sometimes we can improve this by optimizing our algorithm. > > **Player Agency** > How much control we give you; position preferences fall into this bucket. Autofill also affects player agency - it means you don&#x27;t get to play the thing you picked this game for some reason (which we&#x27;ll get to shortly). > > **Game Quality** > How competitive your games are. We want to match you with people of similar skill so both teams have a good shot at winning the game and it doesn&#x27;t feel like a total stomp. > > --- > > The easiest way to talk about the tradeoffs among these is to look at game quality. If we wanted to make matchmaking as fast as possible, we might be ok with lower game quality. If we matched you with basically any other player, we could probably make matchmaking pretty fast. For League, we typically choose to optimize for high quality games, which means longer matchmaking time because there are fewer &quot;compatible&quot; people to match you with. > > So how is this related to Autofill? I mentioned above that Autofill is a lever we have that takes away some player agency. The position preference feature lets us give you more agency, but also makes the pool of compatible people smaller, so it comes with longer matchmaking time. Let&#x27;s say we always wanted to give players their primary position. We could potentially do that, but we would likely need to trade game quality, matchmaking speed, or both. > > When we know there&#x27;s high supply for both your first and second preferences at the moment, rather than putting you in lower-quality matches or making you wait for a long time (in some cases *very* long), we make the choice to trade some of your agency and assign you to a higher-demand position. > > This is probably WAY more than you ever wanted to know about why we have Autofill, but I hope it helps you understand how we look at the tradeoffs in matchmaking. We&#x27;ve talked about doing some long-form posts about our matchmaking system. If you guys are interested in knowing more, let us know! No one likes autofill. Good Lord get rid of it I'll wait glady
We view Autofill as a way to keep matchmaking time and game quality in a reasonable place. Players say fairly often that they're willing to wait as long as it takes to get one of their position preferences, but that actually carries some other problems. Let's say you opt to wait until one of your positions opens up. Let's also say we WOULD have autofilled you. So now, another player will be autofilled instead, increasing the Autofill percentage for players who don't opt to wait. Then, more players start to opt to wait because they don't want to get autofilled, which drives the percentage up even more. Eventually every player opts to wait and matchmaking times are high. This might sound kind of silly, but we actually saw this behavior when we tested veto, which was a feature that allowed players to say, "I'll play top or mid, but NOT jungle." We thought that would be a good way to give players more agency, but we eventually saw the system collapse because every player would veto support. It's a really interesting problem space - I'm definitely not convinced the current implementation of Autofill is optimal. I think there are probably designs that are better than what we have, but we haven't identified them quite yet.
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Riot SapMagic

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