: It comes from this tweet from Nathan Blau (RiotBlaustoise) on May 31: Pre hotfix: _We'll be doing buffs, likely going to do some larger changes, maybe addressing crit passive and R armor pen passive._ People thought he was talking about the near future the way he phrased it.
me and T were musing on some changes to his R's armor pen passive, theory being that he has too much anti-tank damage in the new world and not enough anti-squishy damage. We decided to wait to see how he settles, but it's something I'm paying a lot of attention to.
Ninetales (OCE)
: Hey Meddler, Is there any talk about the future of yorick now that steraks is being gutted of its trinity combination? He loses out on roughly 100-190 damage every 1.5 seconds with that change, and as he has no bonus AD scalings, the changes do not benefit him in any way.
Heya! Not Meddler, but I've been working on Sterak's with Lowbo. Yorick's the main champ on our radar for Sterak's compensation (if we decide to go through with the Base>Bonus change, it's still a bit contentious). Me and Yorick's designer (SolCrushed) have been talking about what changes we can make to open Yorick's ability to itemize offensively when it makes sense. Won't go into details because it's all very speculative still, but we've got some options we're excited about it if Sterak's goes through. edit: Misspelled 'Lowbo' as 'Lobow,' rip.
Wobly (NA)
: Steraks: A few weeks ago you mentioned you were looking at uncoupling Steraks from Trinity Force and giving it power elsewhere. Is that still being worked on, or did that direction not seem fruitful?
Still hopeful on that direction, waiting to see how fighter items settle before deciding on a ship date.
Ramaero (NA)
: Thanks for trying to read my thread despite the limited time you have to spare for this, sadly yes it is lengthy... I really wish I did a better job of compressing everything. As for this reply this is as concise as I can be...I edited this out two times for the sake of condensing the length. I know you can only spare so much time for this as you have other things working on, but I really hope reading this will make you more interested in reading my thread. Please at least read the part just giving the specifics on the changes in his abilities which is less than half the length of my thread, aside from that the rest is elaboration and clarification. That being said I want to point out Talons gameplay is still my favorite among assassins and he has been my main champion since I started for almost 3 years now, over 600,000 pts in him, and I climbed from silver 3 or 4(forget exactly where I placed) to gold 4 with him this season so far with over 300 games on him in ranked this season. I also have a different playstyle to him than most and prefer taking ghost over ignite, and phase rush over electrocute, with the same thing last season(stormraiders surge over thunderlords). Now onto the concerns you asked me to discuss: ______________ Talons gameplay frequently feels very straightforward and simple when he tries to kill a squishy which is usually pretty easy and takes generally 1-2 seconds(sometimes too easy and less than 1 second if I am very ahead), afterwards trying to re-engage to do anything more in a fight is generally very risky and not worth it without his ult, and many times having just one successful kill isn't enough to win the fight or be worth it, so your stuck between trying to get an objective or cs and hope your team doesn't die without you, or reengage as a sacrificial suicide bomber(with no ult) because the team still needs you, which will really suck if after all of that the enemy team still ended up winning the fight despite the Talons efforts. Thus my solution is to sacrifice Talon's ability to do burst damage so that it is considerably less and gives the enemy more time to react an offer some type of counterplay to Talon and in general not die quite as fast; however In return for lowering his intitial burst damage, give Talon more mobility like the dash I discuss in my thread, and an additional skill shot ability as a part of his W as part of his damage. In addition to that upon getting a takedown, which will be more difficult to achieve because of his lowered burst damage, he then gets a spike in his ability to deal damage as well as a spike in his mobility similar to how Katerina, Master yi, and Darius get benefits during takedowns/kills in a fight. This doesn't mean Talon would not be able to quickly one shot someone, just that the amount of gold and level difference he would need to do so will be higher and he will be less capable of that early game, as well as he would need an extra reliance on landing skill shots to kill. This change to Talon will for me, and I believe for many others who like Talon, will make him a more rewarding and enjoyable champion to play. He will have an increased skill ceiling with more room for error, but a potential to do even greater things if someone does really well with him in certain situations, particularly in teamfights; he will be less about killing someone quickly, but in return will have more mobility, intricacy, and variety in how he approaches fights and gets kills. My original thread dives into this in which I have a detailed idea for his rework, including damage specifics, cooldowns, etc. I know the length is daunting but please only read the part of the thread that has the ability specifications with what the abilities actually do in addition to the damage and the cooldowns; that part is less than half of the entire thread's length. Don't bother reading beyond that unless you are curious of the additional details and my perspective on the changes. Thanks again for helping me with this.
Hey Ramero! Talon update designer here. Thanks for taking the time to condense your thoughts. I appreciate that you focused on the higher level gameplay concerns and direction; it makes it easier to understand your thinking and find where we agree or have different takes. That said, now that I clearly understand your reasoning, I think I have some bad news for you -- many of the problems you've identified here are intended strengths/weaknesses of Talon :(. I'll give some background: Damage-dealing champions broadly fall into 1 of 2 camps - burst damage, or sustained damage. Burst damage champions give their opponents very little time to react and can quickly execute them in the right situation, but have very long cooldowns and have to be careful about choosing the perfect time. Sustained damage champions are ready to fight at all times thanks to their shorter cooldowns, but in compensation need to spend more time with their opponents to take them down. It's important to have both of these profiles in the game to appeal to players with varied tastes and to give some texture/variety to the way champions deal their damage. Since it has to happen in such a short window, burst damage tends to be more straight-forward than sustained damage in the moment, with much of the nuance and gameplay contained in the moments that led up to the burst (ie; did the burst champion make good use of their abilities to find a clever path and bypass the victim's allies?). You might see where this is going : Talon was designed for players who prefer the burst damage experience. When tackling the update, we made it a point to preserve this since it was something that many Talon players cared deeply about; to those that we spoke to, burst was a core part of what made Talon Talon. So, we intentionally preserved that part of Talon while trying to add some distinction to the kit through his unparalleled map mobility. That's not to say that a Talon kit with less burst and more repeatable damage would be bad design or less fun by any means, just that it would appeal to a different audience (more of the Yasuo/Yi camp, less the Zed/Talon camp). At the end of the day, a single champion cannot deliver on every gameplay experience, and by keeping each champion's gameplay and thematic identity clear and focused, they all get to be unique and powerful in their own ways. Talon's way is a very bursty one, so I hope it makes sense when I say I don't think we'd consider any changes to Talon that shift him significantly away from being a burst assassin. I'm really glad you've enjoyed Talon so much up until now and really appreciate all the thought and time you put into this. Hope that helps shed some insight on our thought process, and sorry if that was disappointing to hear! Best, -Stashu
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GiABzJ6V,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T23:50:33.926+0000)The other aspect of it (which didn't make it into the tooltip, my bad!) is that it only blocks damage from the person that triggers it. So if your Soraka Qs the enemy ADC and triggers Bone Plating, the assassin who then dives on that ADC does not suffer any reduced damage. This will be making the tooltip later though, yes? This is...sort of huge. :P
: Hey Stashu, first and foremost loved you on BTR yesterday, what do you think of how Bone Plating might affect overall durability in the game
Haha thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it. As for Bone Plating, it's hard to read how it will affect 'overall' durability. It will likely add to early game durability in _some_ matchups, but will be worse than other options (like Celestial Body) in other matchups. As for the late game, if your team has any amount of ranged poke, you effectively can deny the enemy's Bone Plating at a low cost. The point I really want to push on here is that unlike flat defensive stats like HP or Armor, you can actually play around Bone Plating. It does not reduce the damage on the attack that procs it, it only lasts a few seconds, and then it has a longgg CD. The other aspect of it (which didn't make it into the tooltip, my bad!) is that it only blocks damage from the person that triggers it. So if your Soraka Qs the enemy ADC and triggers Bone Plating, the assassin who then dives on that ADC does not suffer any reduced damage. Sooooo! With all that considered, it's really hard to evaluate exactly what this will do to 'overall' durability. But it is easy to talk about what it will do in specific matchups, since it was designed to be good in some and bad in others :D
Rexxiee (NA)
: Bone plate should have been delayed until the bruiser keystone patch
Hello! Bone Plate Designer and balance designer who handled the top lane changes this past patch. I hear where you're coming from, and I also hate stone-walled lanes. I'm a top lane player primarily, and I play agressive champions like Fiora, Kled, and Renekton. I'm with you that playing into uninteractive farm lanes sucks, whether it be against ranged-waveclear or unkillable tanks. So... I hope you believe me when I say we thought about this stuff extensively when designing Bone Plating. Here's some context on the design conversations around it: Non-tank champions lacked options in Resolve for mitigating 'all-in' opponents like Riven or Tryndamere, since the existing minor runes weren't strong in lane for them. As a result, they turned to Inspiration for early durability/sustain options (like Celestial Body, Perfect Timing, and the potion style bonus). We wanted Resolve to be able to fill that need for non-tanks and landed on Bone Plating - good on tanks, but also appeals to squishies. It's good against burst, but bad against poke since opponents can 'poke it off' (damage of the hit that procs Bone Plating isn't actually reduced), then take advantage of the huge cooldown. With that design trending well, we wanted to make sure we weren't increasing the overall amount of defensive power in the early game, particularly the full-tank Resolve+Inspo build. So we removed Celestial Body, nerfed Perfect timing, moved the potion style bonus to a new rune that you have to give up a slot for, and, most importantly, shuffled Resolve runes around. Resolve users can no longer take the mega-early-game defense package of Iron Skin/Mirror Shell + Second Wind. They CAN go Bone Plating + Iron Skin, or Bone Plating + Second Wind, but that package is not strictly tankier since Bone Plating does nothing for 45 seconds after it falls off. (Combined, The full-tank inspo+resolve build is worse off.) Overall, I believe these adjustments will help the 'stonewall' problem, not make it worse. But, 8.4 was a massive patch and we're totally ready to pull the trigger and nerf or change Bone Plating if it does in fact make top lane less interactive!
: For the minutia-obsessed of us -- can you elaborate a little on where in the system this feature lives? Is it effectively just a % multiplier on an existing base, like an item purchase would be? Or is it some other hidden functionality? Or is it actually a multiplier to the value they get from attack speed items? If the latter (i.e. if it affects the purchase value differently from the value presented), will there be an indicator of what the effect is?
Yeah! Not 100% decided on where the stat will live, but we'll likely put it for the player to see somewhere in this hover-over tooltip: https://i.imgur.com/vBHQATY.png I mentioned this in a previous comment, but I'll copy pasta here since I think it illustrates the change well: As an example, if a rune Rune gives +30% AS: * Previously, the champion gained (0.3) x (BaseAttackSpeed) * Now, the champion gains (0.3) x (AttackSpeedRatio) x (BaseAttackSpeed) For the VAST majority of champions, attack speed ratio will be exactly 1.0, so, nothing will have changed for them. I'm a little unclear on what you're asking, does this answer your question?
: How will this new attack speed scaling interact with some of the new runes (lethal tempo for example)? Would rune sourced boosts to AS work independent of a champs AS scaling (so if they get 30% AS from runes, they'll attack 30% faster), or in line with the champs scalings (so they might get 30% more numerical AS, but won't necessarily attack 30% faster), or something else?
Runes would work the same way items and other sources of bonus attack speed work, kind of like the second way you outlined. To get a bit more into it, if a rune Rune gives +30% AS: * Previously, the champion gained (0.3) x (BaseAttackSpeed) * Now, the champion gains (0.3) x (AttackSpeedRatio) x (BaseAttackSpeed) For the VAST majority of champions, attack speed ratio will be exactly 1.0, so, it will work exactly like it used to!
Naqel (EUW)
: Have you(as in Riot) ever considered just having Attack Speed items give a flat amount of bonus AS. Like, instead of 10%, it'd read +0.12 or something along those lines, and it wouldn't be calculated but just the precise amount of gain from the item.
Yea, that was brought up. We ended up shying away from it for the same reasons we don't do that with such stats as ability power. Consider if instead of blasting wand giving 40 AP, it gave '+40 damage to all your abilities,' or something like this. That would make it a LOT harder to balance each champion around the same item. So instead, items give a stat and champions have a ratio for that stat -- this is true of AP and AS!
: Speaking of weird, semi-invisible "stats" that can greatly influence how effective a champion is, has there ever been discussion about introducing items, effects, or champion abilities that affect a champion's "cast speeds"? I was trying to think of a comparable stat to attack-speed for casters while trying to dream up an enchanter that can support a variety of champions without Marksmen being their obvious companion (damage doesn't quite work, and CDR, while the closest visible comparison, has an entirely different purpose) and thought that "% cast speed" (not missile speed, and not channel time, but only the amount of time the casting animation takes) could be an interesting stat to play with. Is this something that the game's current technology would allow? Would it be balanced for a support to be able to buff allies with, say, + 20% cast speed for 10s? Would it matter?
Hey good question! I believe we have the power to do such things, but typically cast times are set for important reasons. They are tuned around giving opponents appropriate time to react, and kept constant so that both the player AND the opponent can get a feel for how long each ability takes and begin to build a 'muscle memory' of sorts. This allows players to learn and grow in their abilities to react and make predictions, and this is a valuable skill we'd like to keep. So while it's possible, I don't see us doing something like this any time soon.
: How is this going to affect champions that already have weird attack speed adjustments on their wind ups and the like, IE {{champion:429}} and{{champion:412}} ?
This change doesn't give us much more control over how long an individual attack takes to launch, just how many of those individual attacks one can launch per second. So, those champs might still need their black magic.
  Rioter Comments
: Question that's probably more is an opinion than an objective question: I'm looking at how I'm going to build Evelynn post Runes Reforged, and I'm trying to wrap my head around what breakpoints to be looking at to decide whether electrocute or dark harvest is right for me. I know dark harvest scales better into late game, and Eve kinda powerfarms for the first 6 levels of the game so she doesn't use the early game power of electrocute as well as most, but she also kinda stalks around to position for ganks, so only having 20 seconds after a camp might not be enough early. What have y'all found internally? Also: DO SCUTTLERS COUNT FOR STACKING THIS???
Heyo! I'm a designer on Runes Reforged, and also designed the Evelynn update :3 This is a tough question, and we've been pretty split between these runes. I think they are both good, and the better choice will be determined by other circumstances. Evelynn has great synergies with Electrocute since she can proc it really fast with her Q. This allows her to get the snowball rolling quickly, which helps rush her to her powerful mid game. On the other hand, Evelynn also makes good use of Dark Harvest with her E. Lich Bane + Dark Harvest + Runic Echoes = insane damage in the late game. However, as you said, DH takes longer to get going, and isn't especially reliable in the early game. The 20 seconds is enough to convert a gank off a scuttle (yes, it does work on scuttle!) or a nearby small camp (raptors to mid lane, krugs to side lanes) if you hustle straight from the camp to the lane, but Evelynn is more of a opportunistic ganker so this can be challenging. Overall, I think Electrocute gives Evelynn more of what she needs when she needs it (burst damage early/mid game) and while Dark Harvest scales better, Electrocute scales decently enough on its own to be the better choice on average. That said, in games where you expect there to be a lot of kills, Dark Harvest is almost definitely the better pick, since it gives Evelynn a more powerful teamfight presence in the late game and allows her to turn getting a single kill (something she excels at) into multiple (something she is bad at). TDLR; They're both good, but I expect electrocute to be better in most situations, with Dark Harvest trumping it in games with a lot of kills.
: Well, you did just say in an earlier comment that you can limit what spells you can rotate out. Why not just keep Smite out completely initially? Otherwise, we could end up with another Mid smite Ezereal meta. Or Twitch building devourer, or top lane tanks going Cinderhulk. Yeah, the more I think of this, the better it sounds to not be able to swap into or out of smite.
> [{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=000b00010001,timestamp=2017-08-23T23:24:13.591+0000) > > Well, you did just say in an earlier comment that you can limit what spells you can rotate out. > > Why not just keep Smite out completely initially? Otherwise, we could end up with another Mid smite Ezereal meta. Or Twitch building devourer, or top lane tanks going Cinderhulk. > > Yeah, the more I think of this, the better it sounds to not be able to swap into or out of smite. Yeah, there's a pretty good chance we end up doing that for the reasons you outline. We'd really like junglers to be able to take this, though, so finding a balance is going to be tough.
: stashu i stg if you bring back tank ekko we will find you
> [{quoted}](name=LyingOnLine,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=002200020000,timestamp=2017-08-24T00:08:30.350+0000) > > stashu i stg if you bring back tank ekko we will find you It was these hands that killed him. If I bring him back, I'll put my own name on the bounty board.
: Hextech Freezeray is gonna feel really bad to play against as a juggernaut
As a top laner, I sympathize -- I know what its like to be a melee getting trained on by Frozen Mallet Kennen, and it sucks. This rune is an attempt at the healthiest possible version of that. Importantly, the Kennen who takes this will NOT have Fervor Of Battle as they would on live, or any other damaging keystone, so while they get to stick on you a little longer, they'll be doing significantly less damage. Also, the Kennen who takes this will likely not buy Frozen Mallet (since they don't stack favorably), and thus will not be able to permaslow you even later on (this effect has a cooldown, giving you windows where you can couter-attack with your damaging or tank keystone that should give you an advantage in the trade). It's more than likely that the current values are too generous to ranged champions or that the cooldown needs to be longer, but that's the current thinking on why this is fair and -- ideally -- less frustrating than you may think.
: Am I the only person that doesn't like this change at all?
> [{quoted}](name=DarkHalo16,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=003d,timestamp=2017-08-24T00:18:26.431+0000) > > Am I the only person that doesn't like this change at all? Definitely not! Every change we've ever made to the game has met with at least some negative reception, even internally. But please believe me when I say we really, really don't want to intentionally make things that you dislike, we sincerely want you to enjoy the game that we put tons of hard work into. However, there will always be things about League that can be improved, and the answer should not be "don't change that, some people will dislike it!" to everything because then nothing would ever get done. This is not to marginalize you and others who dislike these changes -- I am really, really sorry that you don't like these changes. We strongly believe that Runes Reforged is moving League towards a better future in the long term, and are eagerly awaiting preseason to see how we did. Truthfully, we've been wrong about such things before (Dynamic Queue), and we will do our best to recognize those situations and revert if its clear we went astray.
: Ugh. Freezeray just screams "more cancer for you to deal with, toplane melees!". Doesn't help that it sounds like Akali's just begging for it.
> [{quoted}](name=LyingOnLine,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=0038,timestamp=2017-08-24T00:01:36.898+0000) > > Ugh. Freezeray just screams "more cancer for you to deal with, toplane melees!". Doesn't help that it sounds like Akali's just begging for it. Yeah this is definitely a concern. We have some ideas to mitigate that if it gets too out of hand, like making the slow ramp or decay based on which gives better play for the opponent, or just starting the value very low but scaling it up later in the game when laning phase is over, or just giving it a much higher cooldown early, etc.
: So does the "Active Item Slow" work with damage items that have {{item:3116}} on it? Say for example {{item:3116}} {{item:3152}} would that create the field since you used an active item that made the target slowed? Or is the keystone basically programmed for those actual items that have a slow in them? Just thinking about all the items that have a active slow on it, would be {{item:3153}} {{item:3092}} {{item:3030}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3800}} I might be missing a few but I think I got them all. If these are the only items that work with it then it really isn't as well distributed as you said it was. But then again this was an after effect for the keystone, and the main reason for the keystone was the on-hit auto attack slow I guess.
> [{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=003a,timestamp=2017-08-24T00:06:14.135+0000) > > So does the "Active Item Slow" work with damage items that have {{item:3116}} on it? Say for example {{item:3116}} {{item:3152}} would that create the field since you used an active item that made the target slowed? Or is the keystone basically programmed for those actual items that have a slow in them? > > Just thinking about all the items that have a active slow on it, would be {{item:3153}} {{item:3092}} {{item:3030}} {{item:3146}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3800}} I might be missing a few but I think I got them all. If these are the only items that work with it then it really isn't as well distributed as you said it was. But then again this was an after effect for the keystone, and the main reason for the keystone was the on-hit auto attack slow I guess. You got most of them, the only items you're missing are Cutlass (though, you have the upgrades there) and Face of the Mountain (yeah, that shield slows when it explodes). Currently, it's hooked up only to work with those items that specifically have a slow in them. I can see an argue for the rylai's protobelt interaction, will discuss!
: I think Hextech Freezeray ranged slow ratio is too high for a low cooldown of 8 seconds
> [{quoted}](name=MEWK Dunkprophet,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=000500010001,timestamp=2017-08-24T00:10:19.172+0000) > > I think Hextech Freezeray ranged slow ratio is too high for a low cooldown of 8 seconds Very possible, there's still a lot of tuning to do!
: just make it once per game and we're fine
This takes a lot of the fun and excitement out of it, but limiting the number of uses per game could be a nuclear option if this thing ever gets too out of hand.
: I'm not really sure about how I feel , but 3 sec CD for a 50% slow is insane , should be 6 seconds at least. I would love to see some new runes for burst mages!
Yeah, that cooldown might not be tuned quite right. What sort of things would you like for burst mages? More burst, or things that help you get to burst, or other rewards for bursting, orrrr :D?
: I like the idea of the Hextech Freezeray, but there's no way I can see Summoner Specialist being in the game in a balanced state. Might be an overreaction, but can you imagine the nightmare it could be if people could change summoners on the fly? Champions adept at running several different summoners (Top laners who can run flash, ghost, teleport, and ignite for example) would become stronger.
Yeah, it's definitely a scary thought. Currently, this hasn't been a problem because they have to base first, so it's never going to happen 'randomly' in a fight. In testing, we've experimented with global chat callouts (5:05 -Riot Stashu has swapped Ignite to Flash!) to reduce this same burden, which is very possibly something we ship with.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: {{champion:245}} A 50% slowing attack every 3 seconds you say? >:) {{champion:245}}
Oh know... what have I done. > [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=4KAg8Y1F,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2017-08-23T23:29:28.517+0000) > > {{champion:245}} A 50% slowing attack every 3 seconds you say? >:) {{champion:245}} Oh no... what have I done. *edited know >> no
: Hey, did you discuss adding a rune that allows you to store control wards in your boots?Maybe as a alternative to zombie wards or the activateable boots (sorry i forgot how you called it).I think it wouldnt be too weak or too strong compared to other runes of that category and would be a nice possibility to allow players to store control wards in later stages of the game, instead of not being able to get a component.Other possibilities i would like to see are boots you can activate just like yumuus that grant you a greater amount of movement speed for a little duration, maybe double movement speed for 1 s with a 45 s cooldown.A alternative for the flash rune could for example be a ghost rune that allows you to have kayns e-effect without the heal component on a separate 4-minute cooldown if ghost is currently on cooldown. I would really apprechiate to hear your thoughts on my ideas.Sry for my bad english by the way
The problem you're trying to solve here is a real one. Unfortunately, I don't think a rune is the best place to solve it. Ward slot restriction is a systemic pain that should be solved globally for all champions, rather than on an opt-in basis through a rune.
Ars3lyn (NA)
: would {{champion:516}} be able to abuse the summoner specialist with his passive? cause it not a consumable item. which in alot of can be abusing it if you think about it.
Incidentally, they are currently implemented as consumable items :P ('Potion of Flash on 'D'' is a temp name for one of them). Unsure if this is how they'll ship, but that's a good question. Probably best to keep these only purchasable at base, so we'll probably have to make that happen in whatever way makes the most sense.
Hupsis (EUNE)
: I like the idea of affecting potions somehow through runes (currently we have biscuit mastery). I guess such a rune could be considered for the inspiration tree. Just an idea: Potion dealer - player can use health potions on an ally player once every 60 seconds. Each potion consumed increases the healing of the next health potion by 20% to a maximum of 100% increase (150 healing --> 300 healing over 15 sec). Player starts the game with one free health potion. Refillable potion disabled if this rune is picked. To be able to specialize in potions as any champion would be cool.
Thanks for contributing! We also like the idea of hooking into potions, and have tried several different alchemy-inspired keystones that sadly didn't pan out. We haven't tried anything like this, though, and the idea of using potions on an ally is pretty exciting -- some worries about it becoming a must-take for supports, and then also forcing them to sink a bunch of gold into it, but that might be avoidable with some clever mechanics. Really appreciate your time!
: I guess Summoner Specialist will give a big boost to the popularity of the warding Jungle Item, since it's not directly tied to Smite? Or do you think Smite is too important for objective control so people won't swap it out?
That's an interesting decision point. At the least, there will be times when, as a jungler, Baron and Elder Dragon have both been taken, so smite is pretty useless for a while, and Exhuast/Ignite/TP might make more sense, at least for a window. Hopefully, there will be other, less obvious times when it would make sense to switch off smite (like, if their Zed gets extremely fed and becomes the major factor of the game, or if you are snowballing hard as a damage dealer and really need ghost to carry your advantage forward, etc.)
Scopé (EUNE)
: Wait, so having Red Smite or Blue Smite means that I can exchange the spell and still have the jungle item? Or you're going to remove smite upgrades? Because you can't get a jungle item without smite (duh). What if you get one though, and sell it later in the game while not having smite anymore? You have to wait until you can get your smite again?
These are details we have to hammer out, but current thinking is that if you get blue smite, you can still trade out blue smite for, say, exhaust and keep your jungle item (you'll lose access to blue smite, but you'll keep your cinderhulk stats or runic echo proc). As for selling and rebuying the jungle item and that relation to smite... unsure! We'll do our best to give the jungler as much choice and power as possible, without causing weird or arcane optimizations or other game health problems.
: tbh im actually really scared about all the new keystones and the new zhonyas mini item(for assassins with their slow burst nowadays) but lets get back to runes: with this slow thing frozen mallet becomes pretty much useless right? and idk if it doesnt remove alot of counterplay when you chase ppl and im sure supps like thresh want to 100% take this you aa them and basiclly make your stuff unmissable but well lets see how this is gonna play out in preseason and PBE **when** it hits
Yeah, this rune is redundant with frozen mallet, so if you take this rune, you probably won't buy a frozen mallet. Core frozen mallet users will likely choose between taking an offensive keystone and buying frozen mallet OR taking this keystone and buying a different, offensive item. Agree with the skillshot hit-confirming concern, we're currently experimenting with changes to add more gameplay there. Current test: make the slow start realllly small, and then ramp up to a more powerful slow within its last 0.5s or so, giving the opponent more time to react before hitting a small window in which they are unlikely to dodge incoming skillshots. This might turn out to be the wrong approach, but we're confident that we can find a healthy balance here with this or some other mechanical tweaks.
pkcrory (EUW)
: Ok.. so in relation to Summoner Specialist, what would happen if you started the game with smite, bought a jungling item, i.e. get the cinderhulk enchantment, then swapped smite to a different summoner spell? Would the item still give its effects? or would that be disabled?
Currently, there are some... problematic optimizations here around starting with smite, even if you're not a jungler. We'll have to make some changes to address this, but ideally they leave it possible for you to start smite, buy a jungle item, then swap off smite later and keep your jungle item (though, lose your special smite, since you won't have smite anymore).
: So how will it work with Randuin and Glory exactly? See my other comment below: > For Randuin and Glory, it's more complicated since it's already a circular AoE, but I guess a field of ice will spawn at the feet of people slowed by the initial AoE.
Those items will apply the slow effect mod to all units affected. So, in the current model, all units you slow with randuins will have the slow puddle spawn under their feet. We may have to make the AoE slows use a less powerful effect because of the potential high end, but yeah, they'll be included!
: No, no! I mean change the name "summoner spells"! Like as in, the collection of spells comprised of Ignite, Teleport, Exhaust, and friends. _Summoner spells_ is just a bit outdated and feels like a relic.
Ah... while that's probably a good idea, I think that's our of scope for our team here
: Hey Stash these are some super dope Runes, can I ask how you feel these fit into the Inspiration path and what that path is all about. And on a side note, hear me out, you guys should rap about Runes Corner Thoughts?
Here's some notes that we use to describe the purpose of the Path amongst ourselves: INSPIRATION Gameplay: Users seek indirect power through creative tools at the expense of direct damage Audience: Intended to be player type/preference bound rather than function/class bound. This player type is interested in indirect power because it lets them express mastery in novel/unique ways. Note: Nothing in here directly deals damage or grants you damage dealing power. There may be indirect contributions to DPS, like CDR, but nothing direct.
Naalith (NA)
: I see that there is an entirely new alchemy tab in the store in that Bard gif. Are there going to be other masteries besides summoner specialist that utilize this tab?
Unlikely! Trying to reduce complexity and keep the 'rules breaking' component of each rune that does it special for that rune, but that said, it's always a possibility and if it makes the most sense to do, then we'll do it.
: First impressions: * Summoner Specialist is sick. It will be very fun exploring and trying new stuff in the beginning, but I fear it will be crazy overpowered once people (pros, lets be honest) will have mastered its use. You mention in the article that you're "confident it will be balanceable". What gives you such confidence? What are the levers you envision? * Hextech Freezeray is super original, but I'm not 100% sure it's powerful enough for a Keystone, but we'll see when the system is actually released, and the tuning levers are much more obvious. But why restrict it to "item actives *slows*"? Most notably, it means it doesn't work with Protobelt and the Tiamat line, or with Redemption for Supports. Especially Protobelt seems odd not working when Gunblade, Cutlass and GLP all work.
Specialist - We're leaning on the opportunity cost a lot here. From testing, Summoner Specialist users tend to have very tight windows of power, because of how high summoner CD's are. High-level opponents have had a lot of success taking advantage of the windows between cooldowns by forcing fights with their more reliable, lower CD damage/tankiness keystones. Additionally, you have to go back to base to swap spells, so whenever you're on the map, you're locked into the summoner spell pairing that you have and will express the appropriate strengths/weaknesses (for example, if a summoner specialist is rocking exhaust + ignite, then they are VERY vulnerable to ganks, and will lose 1-on-1's to your keystone if you can bait their summoners out). We're also thinking of including global chat call outs to let everyone know when a specialist has swapped summoners, so that enemies can prepare themselves and take the appropriate counter-measures. Lastly, we can always introduce new gates if we have to, like a cooldown on swapping summoners, or if we REALLY have to, we can remove problematic summoner spells from the pool (ie; if everyone takes smite/tp at level 1 with this and we get some weird jungle invade > tp to lane meta, we can fix that) Freezeray - adding a slow to items that don't have them is simply a LOT more pattern warping and much more dangerous. Also, we wanted to limit the number of items that would have this new effect, so that the optimal play wasn't FILL MY INVENTORY WITH ALL ACTIVES! As that can get stressful. Lastly, it just so happened that the suit of active items with slow effects made for a very compelling set, across classes and champions, and made for really meaningful tradeoffs.
: I have to admit that I am extremely disappointed in Summoner Specialist. The 15% cdr on summoner spells is the part I'm talking about, as the current mastery we have that reduces summoner spell cooldowns has led to significant power creep across the board in my opinion. Between blast cones and shorter cooldowns on flash, this was the one mastery I was truly hoping would be removed with the runes rework to cut back on the growing mobility creep.
Understandable, I see where you're coming from. Also, that stat isn't especially strong or exciting. Currently, it's serving an important purpose of making this keystone have a reliable and powerful output. That output can really be anything that fits with the other effect, so I'd definitely like to find something better, but worst case, this will do.
: Does the slow also work on other items like BotRK, Randuins and Righteous Glory?
Yes! whatever effect we land on will be applied to all active items that slow.
: This is so minor but with these changes, and the removal of Summoner's from the lore, is there any chance they might end up renamed in the preseason? I know they're a cool and essential part of League, but I think this is a decent chance to update an outdated piece of nomenclature from the game
Yes! both of these names are very very temp. There's a chance Freezeray sticks, but we'll see!
  Rioter Comments
Landorin (NA)
: To clarify based on what I think the previous poster is saying (and I agree with him): in the current system, AP damage dealers basically have 3 options: Thunderlords, DFT, and Stormraiders. AD damage dealers have 5 options: Thunderlords, DFT, Stormraiders, Fervor, and Warlord's. The runes that have been revealed so far seem to be fairly generalist, which is great, but under the current system there are basically runes usable by everybody, and runes usable by AD only, which basically means that AP damage dealers will always have less options. Just as an example, if something Fervor or Warlord's-esque were to appear in the new system, I'd really like to have them work for both classes of champions (e.g. a version of Fervor that stacks AP with multiple spell casts, or a version of Warlord's that scales off of AP as well as AD).
Yeah that AP warlord's example helps a lot to clarify, thanks. No explicit plans on making something 'AP only,' but we definitely plan on making sure every play style has something for them. Now that you mention it, though, AP warlord's is an interesting idea...
Magisidae (EUW)
: Not sure how much of a fan I am of the active on boots or keystones being an active skill at all. I feel like the rune system should mostly consist of passive effects, while summoner spells take the role of the active effects. I think it's good to have that distinction. Especially because this keystone is basically an out of combat ghost spell or a Youmuus Ghostblade . What I suggest is something more passive. The extra movement speed will activate if you're out of combat and not near any (enemy) champions, perhaps something like Kha'zix's isolated mechanic so it includes minions. This means it will strictly be used for either getting back to lane or for roaming and it would create a lot of stress if you ever went MIA. It could activate at some inopportune times if your opponent plays smart but this makes for some fun counterplay if you manage to pull it off. If you feel the need to, you can always tweak the channel time and the move speed to make sure it won't ever activate in lane. If you do keep it as an active, then I must wonder why some of the other keystones aren't actives as well. Meteor or Berserker could easily be their own active, but you chose to make them a passive effect.
Yeah I get where you're coming from. Reasoning on why this one is okay to be a button press vs meteor or berserk is that those have much lower cooldowns and are in-combat buffs, whereas hunt of the bloodmoon has a high cooldown and can really only be used *before* combat. If meteor were on a button press, the player would have to be thinking about and pressing that button very often, thus making their moment-to-moment inputs significantly more demanding.
: I understand this is a WIP as far as numbers go at this point, so I'll give a little input. I believe that 60 as a level 1 number is to high. You'll get the ability to use the effect at 3 minutes, which is roughly level 2, making it a free spell cast if you step behind your minions for the channel duration. So to help balance out its early game, I believe instead of 60-140 it should be more along the lines of 30-140. As a Trundle player, I see this as is and think "Free level 2-3 kill or force them to base." As Trundle you don't need a starting damage item because of your Q's AD buff which creates opportunities like this.
Yeah this seems reasonable. We've got a lot of tuning yet to do.
: Hope I am not to late for QA. 1) When are we expecting the new rune reforged? Season 8 or Season 9? 2) We have seen 2 aggressive keystones. They are really awesome. Can we see some defensive keystones in the next Runes Corner? 3) So does that mean {{champion:19}} smell an enemy twice??? 4) Is it the old {{champion:19}} in the icon?
1) runes are targeted at this upcoming pre-season! 2) still undecided on what will be next, but we've definitely got some defensive runes to reveal at some point ;) 3) Yes, more or less. This one doesn't tell the player who used it where nearby enemies are like WW does, but it does give the MS to hunt them down if they know where they are. 4) It's the new one, actually :P
Jmman (NA)
: Can I make a possible suggestion. It seem a lot of what I have seen are for AD users. I also feel like the mastery's are like this too. (good changes to make tanks ones better) Can we have unique mage ones. I feel like AD has theirs and then we get AP ones that are just as good for ad. So AD will have choices and AP will just get the one that works the best with AP rather than filling a nich role. Thunder lords and DFT are good for casters but AD users are just as effective with them. But then AD can also use the tank ones just as effective but have 2 pretty much unique ones for AD users (something tanks will take them) but at the end of the day AD has vastly more options to deal with situations. It would be nice to have some just for AP users. It sucks how the ones for AP are just as effective for AD its not the other way around. Then tanks can have their sets ones. Maybe its just AD is just too general and can use everything. Possible make some caster or tank only might help.
I feel you here, but a big problem is that nowadays AP vs AD is more about damage type and less about play pattern, and runes focus on play pattern. For example, meteor is a poke rune and Hunt of the Bloodmoon is roaming rune, neither is intended as an AD or AP rune -- there are plenty of both AP and AD champions that poke (Jayce, Varus, Jhin vs Ziggs, Xerath, Lux) and the same for roaming (Talon, Hecarim, Quinn vs Kassadin, Aurelion Sol, Twisted Fate). So we're trying to make the runes work for both AD/AP champs, as long as they fit their pattern. This is why you see runes that scale with both AP and AD. Is there a particular type of pattern or style that you associate with AP users, or casters, that we haven't provided for yet?
: Is each keystone in the current system going to have a suitable replacement in this new system? I cant wait to know what the storm raiders surge replacement is. (also, what about ones like fervor? I need meh kled lvl 2 w cheese :))
I can't speak to this without stepping on the future reveals, but here's a short summary of our view of porting over live keystones: Holistic quality of the system comes first, and there's a lot of value in creating a *brand new* system. This can suffer if 9/15 of the new keystones are extremely familiar. That said, we definitely look to take what people like from the existing system if it has good gameplay and fills a healthy niche. Sometimes, this means porting a keystone directly over and buffing it, other times it means making slight alterations and then porting it to a new keystone, and OTHER times it means tuning it down and making it a new, non-keystone rune in the new system -- we've done all of these things in testing, so expect to see some examples of this down the road!
: yep. as a thunderord 90% all the time user i approve. meteor is ok but i dont like the idea of its design cause its kinda big and may block view site unlike thunderlords which it comes from above and doesn't distract you
Those meteor visuals were temp, stolen from Ziggs R :P. We agree with your concerns though, and are making sure to account for that with the final visuals ;)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=hFIemE4p,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-19T21:06:01.640+0000) > > C'mon, Darius will love it! does that mean {{champion:33}} can go ***FAST***
: Is this the stormraiders surge analogue? Or will there possibly be another keystone that fulfills a purpose similiar to SRS? I really love stormraiders surge and would hate it if there wasn't a new keystone with a similiar design and purpose
This is not intended to be a stormraider's surge analogue. I don't want to give much more away than that, as we have lots more rune reveals to do and a bunch of stuff is still up in the air, but please do stay tuned ;3
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