The Chained (EUNE)
: First, let me thank you for attention to our goddess Diana and let me ask you two question" Did you read the r/dianamains suggestion? If so, what is your opinion on that? Sec., i feel disappointed by the changes because they are some kind of fixes but not the promised help to improve her assassin X bruiser potential, low skill cap potential and other problems /looking at you E/. Thank you Edit: Please, please - reframe your "Diana goal/problem" and talk to us more, we gonna love you. I can promise you honest and usefull feedback that can bring Diana back to her Lunari peak. {{champion:131}}
Hey there, I totally follow the Diana subreddit and all the suggestions and ideas that get thrown in there. Did you have a specific example of the one you mentioned offhand? I really don't want to change her pattern too much as a whole, but just provide a better play experience when it comes to reliance of AP and Spell casts.
Zaghyr (NA)
: As with every other person who has commented so far, I also think these changes are terrible. **Simply put they completely miss the mark for the changes you were aiming for.** > In the meantime I’ve also been thinking about ways to add small improvements to Diana's kit to make her more enjoyable overall to play as and play against. Patch 7.14 had significant changes to Diana that brought her closer to being a very single-purpose AP assassin, while also gating her attack speed behind spellcasts. I want to try bringing her attack speed back to a more normal baseline and reducing her reliance on AP to succeed. Your changes do not follow this at all. To start, you said that you want to make her more enjoyable to play as and against with 'improvements'. The changes you made will actually make her even worse to play with for a few reasons. 1. **The loss of the AS steroid.** This is essential to Diana's play pattern and satisfaction because her base abilities early are not very strong and she needs to have DPS to succeed. The loss of AS makes her lose a window of power that was necessary to trade patterns, could lower her jungle clear health and speed, and when combined with the passive damage nerf it will maker her tower/split pushing power much, much weaker than it currently is unless you build enough attack speed to offset the nerf. Don't get me wrong, the buffed base AS and AS growth are wonderful changes, however these changes would only truly be felt when you are already building a lot of attack speed and would only maker her high AP bulid more clunky and less satisfying to play 2. **R reset time.** When combined with the lack of an AS steroid on her, this would make her even more clunky to play. You said you wanted to slightly increase her time to kill, that's fine, but this specific change comes with the downside that it makes her already weak and usually slow burst pattern early even worse. Diana is not going to one-shot someone early in most cases and will usually have to poke and then land a full combo with 2 R's in order to kill the target, and in clutch moments that 0.5 seconds could be the deciding factor in whether you die or they die and whether or not you can catch them before they escape. This is the exact same issue that arose when Pre-Rework Akali had her ult dash times messed with. This is also a slight nerf to her in-combat mobility, but the movement speed buff of her passive might heavily outweigh this change. 3. **E cooldown buff not hitting the mark.** This change doesn't necessarily go against the goals you set, they just don't hit the mark for what she needed. Don't get me wrong, this is one of the better changes you made, but this isn't what we needed. The primary issue with her E in terms of satisfaction and usability is how unreliable it is. As it stands this ability is only usable when the target is already close to you. The problems start when the target starts getting to the edge of the radius. This ability becomes really weird and frustrating when they reach the edge. Even if they are in range when the spell is casted, they will either walk of range during the cast time, or the ability will just not pull them at all even though they were clearly in range. While the cooldown change is nice because it would buff her sticking potential top-lane and massively increase her sticking power late-game, it doesn't fix the core issues with the ability. Besides the problems with its reliablity at the edge of the radius, it is also a nearly dead jungle spell until lv6 and is only used for the AS steroid increase, it is also nearly useless against ranged match-ups pre-6. You also said you are changing her AS so that she relies less on AP to succeed. This won't work because in order for her to succeed with less AP, her kit needs to be able to function with other builds that focus less on AP. Not to mention you nerfed the AP ratio on her passive, which would would make non AP builds weaker, and would require more AP to offset the nerf. The only viable builds that would work for her that involve less AP are on-hit DPS builds and bruiser builds. The DPS builds could work with the base AS buff, would be a bit weaker because of the passive damage nerf. The bruiser builds would be less effective than pure DPS, because while you do have higher mana, base AS, lower E cd, and the new MS buff, there is no proper AP bruiser itemization, her Shield is too reliant on high amounts of AP to be effective, she does not have good DPS without Nashor's, and she has no form of tank-busting innately to deal with other fighters and tanks. _**SUGGESTIONS**_ * **Lower her base AS (lower than 0.725, but much higher than 0.625. Keep her AS steroid after ability cast, but change its scaling to be less explosive and more manageable with the higher base AS.** In terms of satisfaction a mix of both changes would be ideal. Having a higher base AS would open up more viable builds and increase early game satisfaction and the AS steroid would still give her windows of power, but would have to be tuned so that her AS post change and pre change comes out roughly the same when using AS steroid. * **Don't nerf her early base Mana as hard, keep the Mana growth buff, keep the removal of passive Mana restore**. Overall these are nice changes actually. The reason I'm suggesting on making the base Mana nerf less harsh is because to try and keep some of the suggestions power-neutral, I will be suggesting lowering her Mana regen and/or Mana regen growth, and slightly uping some of her mana costs (by like 5, maybe 10 for her E or R, but not all abilities will get a mana cost change. * **Keep the passive Movement speed buff, or put the movement speed buff on her W.** I actually quite like this change, and honestly it could work on her W as well granted the MS increase is higher on her W because it would be utilized less often, especially if you are focusing on DPS. If the MS buff is good enough, then I would keep the AP ration nerf to offset its power a little. * **Keep her E cooldown buff, and make it more reliable to use when champions are closer to the edge by hitting the pull directly and/or messing with the cast time and channeling.** The buff is nice, and I would keep it, but the ability really only needs QOL changes to make it more reliable and satisfying. If the E is better to use and she gets MS on her passive, then naturally this ability should also get a slight nerf to it to compensate. Lowering the slow % would do the trick sich her sticking power is already more frequent and reliable from other changes. * **Remove the R reset Nerf.** There are other ways to increase her time to kill without making her clunky. * **Keep the fog-of-war change on her Q, it's actually kind of nice to have that option.** * **Increase her base AD.** IF AND ONLY IF YOU INTEND TO GO THROUGH WITH _YOUR_ ATTACK SPEED CHANGES, then please increase her base AD so it doesn't feel like she is hitting someone with a wet noodle. Would also help offset the AP nerf to her passive slightly and while may be hitting people is massive bursts of speed like she did, they are slightly faster on a base level and hit a little harder. * **Buff her base Shield, lower the shield's AP ratio, possibly add a bonus HP ratio or Mana ratio.** If you want her to succeed with less AP then her W ABSOLUTELY needs to be functional at less AP. Giving her a better base shield would already help her other builds and should be a nerf to her full AP build, and if you have to you could add the bonus HP or Mana ratios as other ways to the make the shield good without he need for a lot of AP. Naturally this change would come of a nerf to offset it, something like lower damage, slightly higher cooldown, or slightly higher mana cost, or a combination of them would do. * **Using R on a Moonlight marked target no longer removes all other Moonlight marks from other targets.** This is something a lot of Diana players want, while it would probably have to come with some kind of nerf, it would help her reliability and satisfaction a bit. * **Nerf her burst, but buff her DPS.** How you do this is up to you, but I think it is necessary for her health and balance based on the changes you presented. I have my own suggestion, but he only problem with mine is that is might require a VFX change, but hopefully it won't. The Suggestion is this: **_Enemies marked by Moonlight now take X(+Y% AP) bonus magic damage from Diana's basic attacks and Lunar Rush._** This change would be accompanied by a very slight nerf to her Q damage and a slightly higher nerf to her R damage, but would also work with your Passive damage nerf, and should NOT be done with by base AD buff suggestion. This would lower her burst a bit, but give her more dueling power and DPS in moments of power. Her ult would be less bursty overall except when reset with Q. I don't think this is a heavy Mechanic change at all, but the main issue with it is that you might have to add a VFX for when the damage is dealt. However, the VFX change wouldn't have to happen if you just don't make a VFX change at all, or preferably make Diana use her Crit animation when attacking enemies marked with Moonlight. Most of your changes, and some of mine, are either power shifts or buffs accompanied by compensation nerfs. Overall if the combined list is less power neutral then desired, then naturally you would have to make more nerfs to compensate assuming you can find the proper areas to nerf. Some of YOUR changes are nice in concept but they miss YOUR mark and would only hurt Diana in other ways that as you can tell do not make Diana players very happy.
Thank you so much for the extensive analysis, this hits a lot of the areas I was hoping to discuss and read about. I won't be able to get through all of the points you've made but they're all very remarkable. The biggest gamble I want to suggest is the shift from expecting Diana to get her AS steroid from her spell cast rotation to just getting her to a point where she naturally grows into a fast-attacking champion. I tried putting that steroid elsewhere on the kit but it felt like it was extra buffs when trying to instead give the power through Q and the base. I do love a lot of your suggestions and will try to see if I can put some of them in to test.
: For reference, I am a Diamond 3 Diana onetrick with over 1,1 million mastery on her. These changes are absolutely terrible and honestly just a straight up nerf to an already terrible champion. Her oneshot potential is the only reason why you would play her, because there is no reason to play her as a "bruiser" as long as Jax, Riven, Hecarim, Rek'Sai, Irelia etc. etc. exist. Increasing her mana growth isn't gonna help when you remove the mana on passive. Why would you even do that considering how weak she is? Increasing her attack speed is nice for cs'ing, but removing the E bonus hurts her overall damage and 1v1 potential and makes E a non-ability that's not worth taking until level 8 once again. The R change will also do nothing else than make her feel more clunky. If you want to reduce her oneshot potential, please do it in some other way (and do the same to champs that can also oneshot, like Rengar).
Heya! First, thanks for taking the time to reply and give me your thoughts on this. I'm also going to agree that most of the changes can read as a power down overall when reading through them. A lot of the power that i'm trying to redistribute is scattered in places where it's really hard to tell from a glance. The base stats, movement speed buff and Q changes should be where the bulk of the improvements are when it comes to playing around with them. Would love to hear more of this if you get a chance to play around with it and feel the same way.
  Rioter Comments
: If it helps any, I documented my findings about E via the Training tool. Sorry for throttling you with information, bughunting is kind of a passion of mine and seeing responsiveness kickstarts my engine something fierce: **The E** It appears as if an exterior source kills the target or applies enough damage to the target immediately after E hits the minion, then the minion is scripted to die (full stop of collision body, and doesn't even count as you killing it.) This actually ends up being an interesting situation: If E doesn't do enough damage to the minion to kill it, then it applies the damage to the minion immediately. If E would do enough to kill the minion outright, then for the whole damn ability to work, it must not take the damage until after it hits terrain/distance. This opens up a window of opportunity whereupon the minion can be at extremely low health, Sion E's it, then the minion gets another source of damage (your sunfire cape + various caster minions, anyone else attacking it) in which it will take immediate damage, die, and do all the things a minion does when it dies. Since your ability didn't finish it off per se, it doesn't give you gold, etc. It was a pain in the ass to replicate in the training tool but I finally got it to reproducible steps. Really, the problem with Sion's E is that **rather than freeze the minion's HP if Sion's E would kill it, until it stops and then kill the thing** it instead holds off on applying Sion's E damage until it hits its end **which allows for other damage sources to pre-empt or cheat Sion's E out of doing its job.** Furthermore, given someone else's findings about Sion's W not working when leveled up during his passive (as in, tragically dying just as he hit level 3) I did some deep passive investigation as well. **Passive** * If you skill up W for the first time during Sion's passive it will no longer give you 10 max health on every big kill/assist, and only give you 2 per minion for the remainder of the game. Leveling it up after the fact while alive does not fix it. Leveling W up to rank 1 while alive, then leveling it up afterwards while his passive is up will **not** trigger the bug. Neither will ranking W up for the first time while transitioning to passive (stasis point) nor doing it while greyscreen'd after the passive expires. * If Sion has over 1.75 attack speed pre-death (e.g. a few Nashor's tooth or something), then Sion's passive will actually reduce his attack speed down to the new cap of 1.75. * Fleet Footwork, unlike Luden's/DMP/Statikk, does not stack nor activate when in passive. * Lethal Tempo does not incorporate Sion's passive attack speed cap (1.75). If Lethal Tempo would take Sion's attack speed (say 1.70) and boost it above 1.75, then Lethal Tempo's bonus override's Sion's passive, resetting to 1.75 after Lethal Tempo expires. Conclusion: Sion's attack speed "bonus" in his passive is actually a secondary cap. Since Lethal Tempo allows him to exceed attack speed caps it lets him surge past 1.75 if Lethal Tempo modifies pre-death attack speed to beyond 1.75 I hope some of this helps!
This is actually a superb analysis of the E bug. I will be adding those notes to the ticket and move it on up on our list of issues to fix. As for the ones relating to the passive, most of those are known but current don't weight in enough to be worthy of being prioritized at the moment. I know the first one is potentially extremely harmful to a Sion game due to the repercussions of losing that much potential HP, and will probably be looked at eventually ^^ Awesome job on the report, thanks a lot!
Sioń (NA)
: Riot... Please fix Sion (List of bugs on Q,E,R and autoattack)
Heya! I have updates regarding the first issue, where the Q cooldown doesn't refund correctly. We've been able to track down the issue and the fix is ready to go out with the next patch coming out next week. The E bug is on our radar and we're working on a fix for it in the future. As for the other issues, some of them pertain to the general game more than being Sion specific and are being looked at (Minimap/Portrait clicking over the HUD) **UPDATE:** : I've also fixed the issue where Learning W in zombie mode did not provide him with the proper HP gains. Also still working to get a fix on the E bug by 8.3. Thanks everyone for the replies! Thank you so much for the report, those can really help us prioritize certain issues. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: I'm RiotMEMEMEMEMEME AMA about Champion/VGU Development!
Hey MEMEMEMEMEME big fan, What was your most difficult project to tackle so far and how would you say it turned out in the end? Which Champion would you like to have a full VGU the most right now? Who is your favorite QA peer, and why is it me? Cheers {{champion:432}}

Riot Zhanos

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