Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 27
Rammus is actually a really fun and unique design that shouldn't be screwed with. He's one of the few tanks I actually find fun to play for that reason. His Q, W, and E are all too perfectly synergistic and iconic to be changed. But his R is out of place, irrelevant, and has plenty of room for change. Although his passive could possibly be tweaked, he should be someone who is rewarded for stacking armor by scaling with it. The only reason I don't play Rammus anymore is, not because I don't like his kit design, but because his strategy was gutted by nerfs. Thornmail no longer reflecting percentage damage back ruined his entire playstyle (this is also probably why damage dealing is getting out of hand in general. Tanks no longer have a counter to hyper carries with high attack speed and low health). Add on top of that other things that ruin his play style and a lot of his fun: Passive interaction with armor nerfed. Stacking armor is no longer as rewarding. Q nerfed to be a channeled ability with less slow and less duration. E armor pen taken away, so he is not the bane of squishies with high auto attack damage. Magic resistance nerfed, so he is no longer the ultimate in tanking damage when defensive ball curl is up.
Yuvn Ti (NA)
: It was Darius Top, Cho mid, Nasus Jungle, Teemo support
> [{quoted}](name=Yuvn Ti,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=EJeBnoTp,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-07-23T19:06:49.605+0000) > > It was Darius Top, Cho mid, Nasus Jungle, Teemo support I guessed it right as Darius top. Except I said Cho support, Teemo jungle, and Nasus mid. Teemo jungle can be pretty viable. Cho support is reasonable although almost never seen. Nasus mid is done by some Nasus players with a different buildpath. It's the same caster build that Nasus players use in ARAM. Darius is the only one who has no semi-viable alternative spots but toplane. Or, to put it another way, all the other champions have better viable secondary options than Darius does. Putting him anywhere else would just mean they are trolling. I suppose you could be trying a double bruiser comp with darius bot, but it's not a very viable strat to begin with and with lucian on the team you have to guarantee he's the ADC unless he's trolling.
: IT'S HERE - Map of Runeterra
This map and all the concept art looks like they need to take this and turn it into an RPG of some sort.
: IT'S HERE - Map of Runeterra
An impressive map. It does a lot to make the lore feel more tangible and cohesive just seeing it mapped out like this. It actually makes you more interested in the lore when it's easier to grasp how it all fits together.
: In Europe Soccer is called Football. In America, it's called Soccer.
> [{quoted}](name=Luxana Crowngard,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YeFEWM1P,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-07-17T22:14:45.585+0000) > > In Europe Soccer is called Football. In America, it's called Soccer. Exactly. It's called soccer. When you're the world hegemon you get to decide what things are called.
: Why is football Ekko in this splash? what do you guys think?
Ralanr (NA)
: I really like the new Silverfang splash.
That was my favorite skin of the bunch. I like the omega or spec ops style skins, so if I ever played akali I'd definitely want this skin. It reminds me also of Naruto style ninjas, like Kakashi, which is cool.
FallenStar (EUNE)
: Gold Funneling is beyond HORRIBLE and UNFUN
Your exaggerated superlatives in title and emote spam in the body ensured I had no desire to read your post, because you probably don't have anything intelligent to say.
Rioter Comments
: Negativity towards the State of the Game goes far beyond the boards.
I believe the point at which they turned a corner was when they wanted to try to force faster games at the expense of strategy. They forgot that this is first and foremost a strategy game, not a teamfight brawler. Dota games regularly last 60 minutes, and I enjoy every minute of it lately.
: Used Car Salesman Tahm Kench anyone?
There's nothing about kench that would lead you to go with that theme. You could just as easily put that theme on any other champion, unless there is something about that champion that makes the theme extra funny or synergizes with their abilities. Like pizza delivery sivir goes with her attacks and won't work on just any champion. Or meowkai is a take off how people say his name. It has to be used car saleswomen Illaoi, with her wacky waving inflatible tube flailing tube men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GznhT__PXs A long standing request of the community.
Riyotous (NA)
: Riot, the way you do things really confuses me.
Old runes were better and funner. You could theoycraft all kinds of possibilities and experiment. You could tailor very specific runes to unorthodox strategies. So what if pro players only had the same runes? It was still a viable system for everyone else. The only downside, and this was a deal breaker, of the old system was that you needed to farm IP for years to actually unlock all the fun stuff just so you could have fun playing around with it. I never actually got to try out all the ideas I had because I didn't have enough IP for it. And this is comnig from someone who almost never spent IP on champions but paid RP when they were half off specifically to be able to afford more runes. I hated the old system for that reason, and don't miss the grind. The best of both worlds would have been to give us the options of the old system but without the grind.
Valkyrie (EUNE)
: about the sejuani nerfs on pbe mr meddler
Tank junglers are still garbage in my experience. I know it's going to be an easy win everytime I see a tank jungler on the enemy team, while I'm playing Yi or Nocturne (who are good level 2 duelers). They will lose every scuttle crab to me without help from their laners, and I will probably invade them with impunity thanks to my scuttle lead. And because I am building for attack speed/onhit, the fact that they are a tank won't save them at any point in the game.
: I had an AP Yasuo in my game in ranked, in RANKED and we lost also he inted and we rported him, nothhing happened
> [{quoted}](name=BogAnubis123,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=yApQr1jJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-11T09:06:33.942+0000) > > I had an AP Yasuo in my game in ranked, in RANKED and we lost also he inted and we rported him, nothhing happened I have only once see someone banned for inting, and it was when I manually reported them through a ticket and they said things in chat that incriminated them. Automatic reporting never works. And manual reporting might not work either unless they say something in chat that proves they are doing it on purpose.
Yamikaze (NA)
: The PBE Talon Nerfs Are The Wrong Way to Nerf Talon - By a Challenger Talon OTP
I don't agree with the Q nerf because the range nerf during his rework took away a lot of the fun and effectiveness of playing him. We shouldn't be dependant on the enemy being near walls to be able to engage on them. That range becomes more important as the game gets longer, especially in a teamfight context. His current Q is still much shorter than old Talon, so the last thing we want is for it to get even shorter again. I tend to be a fan of reverting things that weren't originally there, like removing his higher base MR and then seeing what happens. It zeros us out back to square one so we don't keep compounding mistakes on mistakes. In the case of Q range, though, his Q was always intended to be this range. And his kit never quite felt right without the extra range. I also like the idea of lowering Talon's early damage a bit and giving him better scaling late game through his E. Talon's performance falls off on a graph like a deep ocean trench after the early game (but old Talon did good mid game and didn't fall off as hard late game). It is the number one reason I gave up playing as Talon, because unless you are high elo the early game doesn't matter much in determining the outcome of most games. The only way to win average elo is to both stop the enemy from snowballing early AND being able to carry hard at least into the mid game, but ideally you have to be able to carry decent late game. Too many games I've lost because, even though I had a stellar early game performance as Talon, my team couldn't capitalize on my gains so the game went long and I was rendered useless. I am forced to switch to champions that do well late game in order to solidify my early gains, yet still can do decent early, until I reach a higher elo. Let's also consider another option - Removing tiamat from the game. It warps a lot of designs in the game to equip so many champions in so many roles with exceptional manaless waveclear and farming speed they shouldn't have. It undermines the point of having champions that are actually naturally good at waveclear when so many people are crutching their champions with top tier waveclear through a single cheap item they get early. This isn't the first time tiamat has caused problems when rushed on certain champions. I don't think it's a necessary item to have in the game. Although some people like the ability to turn a bad waveclear/farm champion into an excellent one with minimal investment, I don't like seeing champions with naturally good waveclear having that advantage nullified so easily.
: It's a new incarnation of his old ult. Second it makes sense, it's a short range dash which really looks like a jump. I don't think it's out of place.
> [{quoted}](name=SooFr0sty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cl8Z2KO5,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2018-07-07T06:35:32.245+0000) > > It's a new incarnation of his old ult. > > Second it makes sense, it's a short range dash which really looks like a jump. I don't think it's out of place. As I said it should have been a teleport to be a proper incarnation of his old ult. Thematically it looks stupid that a lumbering beast like that could dash any distance. Since when would a ranged juggernaut, of all types of juggernauts, need a dash? If he can dash then everyone should dash.
: Can the next champion / "reworked" champion not have 850 mobility spells and a displacement ?
I think the straw that broke the camels back on LoL's ridiculous mobility creep was when they couldn't even rework freakin urgot without putting a dash on him. Since when can that giant lumbering pile of blob dash? He's also a juggernaut, which aren't suppose to have mobility. If they were that hellbent on giving him mobility they should have given him a mini-teleport as homage to his old design. It's boring design when everyone has easy mobility. Smart positional play use to be fun. One of the things I like about Dota 2 is that mobility creep never really happened. Granted, everyone has access to a blink or a dash by buying certain items, but overall it results in there being a lot less mobility creep issues in the game because you are making tradoffs by sacrificing your gold for those items. So you don't see it as much, you don't see it early game at all, and when you do see it you know they sacrificed something else to get it.
: That Teleport Nerf.
I've always preferred TP in all lanes. I guess the rest of the game finally caught up to how good it is.
: Can we have techies from dota 2 but in league of legends?
I've been playing Techies a lot in Dota and it's amazing how he is everything I wished Teemo could be. I can push a lane and wall off any gank paths with unlimited mines that are actually a threat to the enemy. I can respond to enemy pushes by establishing remote mines in the way to kill anyone who tries to get near the tower, meanwhle placing proximity mines in the lane to slow their advance, and proximity + stun mines on the flank of the lane and tower to prevent the enemies from manuevering, fleeing, or chasing. I can play mind games with the enemy and set up remote mines + proximity + stun at random areas around the map that will actually kill them in one shot. There are so many fun and creative ways to play techies. I feel like a lot of the fun and creative ways we use to play Teemo just aren't possible anymore after the nerfs.
: > [{quoted}](name=Risen29,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYNfQUWb,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-07-05T05:48:48.102+0000) > > Meh, after Techie's nerfs he's actually really bad. He's still fun, he's just not that good at actually winning. > > They changed his Q mine to have a warning sound and reveal itself when you get near, with a long delay to explode, so you can either attack it or get out of range. It basically renders the whole ability useless for anything other than waveclearing, and even then it's actually heavily nerfed for lane waveclearing because the enemy can kill it before it explodes denying you massive amounts of mana that were just wasted for nothing. > > The only way I can actually hit people with the Q is to combine it with his W root bomb (it use to be a stun, that's a pretty huge nerf too), so you get guaranteed damage of the mine as long as they don't have vision. The problem with this is that it takes an obscene amount of mana to set up this combo and the payoff is minimal because you can't stack multiple mines on top of each other either anymore. > > Techies would be completely worthless now if he didn't still have his remote bombs. This is the only means he has of actually killing anything because you can stack multiples together, but you need to manually detonate them to do it. If the enemy has vision they become useless. But you can buy the scepter which allows you to make a tiny area of mines completely unrevealable by vision, which is really your only surefire way of getting a kill late game - assuming you can get them to step over that spot. Yeah I know, I pointed that out on another post below. Techies was reworked pretty quickly after his Dota 2 release. Still, he's a far more frustrating character to deal with than Teemo (so are a lot of characters from other Moba games). Techies can still stall games something fierce which has always been the worst thing about him.
> [{quoted}](name=Wild Geese,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYNfQUWb,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-05T06:12:59.195+0000) > > Techies was reworked pretty quickly after his Dota 2 release. No, it took more like 2 years for him to be reworked after he was released. Which coincided with them making a lot of major changes to the game that long time players didn't seem to have good reactions to. It's like at some point a couple years ago they decided they wanted to start messing with the game's mechanics and design in major ways that changed everything. Prior to that they seemed to have a hands off philosophy of minimal intervention and not fixing what isn't isn't broke. So I believe the techies rework came about not because there was a pressing need for it, but because they simply changed their philosophy towards the game that opened the door for them reworking and changing all kinds of things that normally they wouldn't touch.
: Most cancerous design ever, I laugh when people say Teemo is the devil.
> [{quoted}](name=Wild Geese,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYNfQUWb,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-05T03:16:15.086+0000) > > Most cancerous design ever, I laugh when people say Teemo is the devil. Meh, after Techie's nerfs he's actually really bad. He's still fun, he's just not that good at actually winning. They changed his Q mine to have a warning sound and reveal itself when you get near, with a long delay to explode, so you can either attack it or get out of range. It basically renders the whole ability useless for anything other than waveclearing, and even then it's actually heavily nerfed for lane waveclearing because the enemy can kill it before it explodes denying you massive amounts of mana that were just wasted for nothing. The only way I can actually hit people with the Q is to combine it with his W root bomb (it use to be a stun, that's a pretty huge nerf too), so you get guaranteed damage of the mine as long as they don't have vision. The problem with this is that it takes an obscene amount of mana to set up this combo and the payoff is minimal because you can't stack multiple mines on top of each other either anymore. Techies would be completely worthless now if he didn't still have his remote bombs. This is the only means he has of actually killing anything because you can stack multiples together, but you need to manually detonate them to do it. If the enemy has vision they become useless. But you can buy the scepter which allows you to make a tiny area of mines completely unrevealable by vision, which is really your only surefire way of getting a kill late game - assuming you can get them to step over that spot.
: Can we have techies from dota 2 but in league of legends?
See the post I just made on this subject comparing Techies to Teemo: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zZjAnWvR-after-trying-hard-to-make-teemo-mushroom-strat-viable-i-am-utterly-shocked-after-playing-techies Techies is incredible fun. I wish they would revert Teemo's mushroom nerfs so we can live the dream again and play him more like Techies. I wouldn't care if it comes at the cost of power to his Q or E.
: You're mistaking 'a point' for 'a premise'. It's an easy mistake, especially when you're so full of yourself you can't see straight ;) My premise was not that nobody enjoys it, that was simply one point in my argument which is that funneling, as a dominant strategy, is likely not healthy. The difference between funnel and support is experience. Funnels do not get experience for roughly half of their actions, thus meaning they are LITERALLY sacrificing their ability to even use their champion's abilities. Supports still get experience from most of what they do and thus are still able to participate nearly fully in the game. Physical pain is actually a subjective sensation, as it is a firing of sensors in the brain but no two people experience that the same way, nor do - necessarily - the same sensors fire from the same stimulus in two different people. Similar to pleasure, for that matter. And as a result, the comparison IS valid, since both are subjective experiences.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-04T19:15:18.442+0000) > > My premise was not that nobody enjoys it, that was simply one point in my argument which is that funneling, Wrong. Your second point depended on your first point being true, which made your first point a premise. Your premise was also never proven to be true. For a premise to be a point in itself, you'd first have to prove it was true and not just assume it is. >as a dominant strategy, is likely not healthy. Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. Merely saying it would not be healthy doesn't make it true. You have to establish with logic and reason why that would be, and define healthy first. > The difference between funnel and support is experience. Funnels do not get experience for roughly half of their actions, thus meaning they are LITERALLY sacrificing their ability to even use their champion's abilities. Supports still get experience from most of what they do and thus are still able to participate nearly fully in the game. Wrong. Taric stays midlane and gets all the exp he needs while master Yi is farming the jungle. > Physical pain is actually a subjective sensation, Wrong. Physical pain is a hard wired response every person is born with. If you get shot it will always trigger physical pain, no matter who you are or what your preferences are. Unless your nervous system is broken and you can't feel. I am astonished at your stupidity that I need to even take time to explain this fact to you. You're not making as many fallacies as you were, so that's an improvement. But instead you replaced fallacies with just making outrageously stupid and obviously wong claims that demonstrate astoudingly bad thinking your part.
DeusVult (NA)
: Pyke is the only assassin that actually works as a balanced assassin
The starting premise of your argument is wrong. Pyke is not an Assassin, he's a Catcher. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Catcher_champion So saying "Pyke is the perfect example of a balanced assassin design" is basically akin to you saying you want assassins as a class removed from the game. He is not an Assassin, and cannot fulfill the role of an assassin for his team. ----------------- _Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets. _ -------------------- Pyke can infiltrate but he has no capacity to dispatch targets. He has no upfront burst. He can only enable others to dispatch the targets and capitalize on what they started. He has backend burst that only works after others damage the enemy for him. Although he does fit other aspects of the assassin class, in terms of mobility, target access, and defensive tricks, these are merely secondary concerns. None of them matter to an assassin if they can't do their job by bringing target killing burst damage against a protected target with full HP. This is the reason Pyke is an "assassin-like" support without actually being an assassin. To make all assassins like Pyke would be to remove assassins as a class from the game, because they could no longer do what their class description calls for. We already saw what a clusterfuck of design it was when they tried to redesign assassins to not be able to assassinate by delaying their burst. The last thing we need is another attempt at making assassins into non-assassins while still trying to pretend they are assassins.
: Id reccomend not judging HoTS so fast. there is plenty of champions you can solo carry with. Some even having 60%+ winrates once mastered.
> [{quoted}](name=NocturnalSheild,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zZjAnWvR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-03T22:29:18.721+0000) > > Id reccomend not judging HoTS so fast. there is plenty of champions you can solo carry with. > > Some even having 60%+ winrates once mastered. I actually have played HotS quite a lot (Currently level 300). I was platinum MMR just playing casually, with 70% winrates on several specialists, and 60% winrates on several assassins. I just quit 2 years ago when they basically removed the specialist class from the game, which was what I had the funnest playing. I tried playing again this week and remembered how painful it is trying to play a game where you have so little carry potential on a team full of apes. You try so hard and get rewarded so little compared with Dota or LoL. Specialists can no longer carry a game with pushing power. Assassins can still carry but some of the ones I use to be good at have since been gutted, so I'd need to learn some of the newer ones to carry again. I think what's most frustrating is that they did an MMR reset, so it has me playing against level 5-20 players where every game is a complete coinflip over which team is more stupid. When I team with other players who are platinum MMR, I actually have enjoyable games where I can play the game properly. I can actually play a non-carry role and do so well enough that it wins the game for us. Not unlike LoL in that regard. It's just a shame that all these MOBAs force you to learn how to carry apes before you get to actually experience the game properly with players who have a clue.
Rioter Comments
: Dark Matter Zac (+ Voice Effects)
It would look cool especially if it was translucent with little mini galaxies and suns floating inside of his body. The problem is we need a Zac skin that doesn't simply involve a basic retexture of his base model. Give us a liquid metal Zac or something that has armor attached to his water body, or something like that. Although if they took this dark matter skin and had stuff lighted and animated floating around inside his translucent body, or even had the translucence shift to solid and back at intervals, that would make the skin unique enough that I believe it would be well worth making. And if I were playing Zac actively (I use to, but not anymore) I would surely buy it.
: Season 1 Veteran here; Riot has NEVER suceeded with the Assassin class.
Assassins function fine in Dota, and functioned fine in LoL before all the changes. The problem stems from a failure of philosophy. If you are ok with having a game where players can die quickly to mistakes then there's nothing wrong with the assassin class as they use to exist in LoL or as they exist in Dota; because we don't see balance problems at higher elos or pro play where genuine balance issues manifest themselves. But if you decide it's bad for players to die quickly, because low level players whine about it, then you cannot have a functional assassin class in the game. Trying to design an assassin that doesn't assassinate will never work. That's why the assassin rework failed. Their goal is a logical contradiction with itself.
: That was simply one POINT in my argument. It was not the entire premise of the rest of the post. There were 3 separate points in that post. Point 1 was 'nobody seems to enjoy it'. Point 2 was 'There is more to fun than 'winning''. Point 3 was countering the comment about interactivity. That being said, you're making a lot of assumptions here yourself. You're assuming I dislike playing support, which is actually not the case. I love support in LoL. But I love support in LoL because support players in LoL get resources for playing the game differently, not because they get starved. Which is what the funnel player does, and is the difference between support and funnel. And no, you're misinterpreting my above argument to claim it as a logical fallacy. My argument was that one person enjoying something is not a good metric for deciding whether it is valid, and I - again - used an obvious example of something most people would not enjoy to provide a relatable point of reference. I was not equating funnel to pain, simply stating that knowing one person who enjoys funneling, much like knowing one person who enjoys pain, does not provide a basis for saying it is a healthy component of an experience.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:45:11.792+0000) > > That was simply one POINT in my argument. It was not the entire premise of the rest of the post. There were 3 separate points in that post. Point 1 was 'nobody seems to enjoy it'. Point 2 was 'There is more to fun than 'winning''. Which is an irrelevant if you don't first prove your premise to be true that nobody enjoys it. >Point 3 was countering the comment about interactivity. Which I refuted in a response to you about your use of the word "interactivity", and you had no response to. > > That being said, you're making a lot of assumptions here yourself. You're assuming I dislike playing support, which is actually not the case You're the one who compared playing support in Dota to physical pain (because support in Dota is hardcore gold funneling). So it was not an assumption on my part. I just take what you say at face value. Be more accurate in what you say if you don't want to be mistaken. > I love support in LoL. Then you just admitted to loving a gold funneling role. > But I love support in LoL because support players in LoL get resources for playing the game differently, not because they get starved. Just because you have a way to generate some gold without taking some away from your laner doesn't change the fact that you are still funneling all available gold from the lane and kills to your laner. It is by definition a 100% gold funneling role. Which invalidates your attempt to paint gold funneling as some kind of abberation that goes against the game's design. As someone else pointed out, junglers acting as funnelers has existed in the past. >My argument was that one person enjoying something is not a good metric for deciding whether it is valid, You are the one who made the fallacious claim that nobody enjoys this strat. All it takes to disprove your claim is one person. You need to modify your premise to build a new argument because your premise was wrong to start with. > and I - again - used an obvious example of something most people would not enjoy to provide a relatable point of reference. I was not equating funnel to pain, simply stating that knowing one person who enjoys funneling, much like knowing one person who enjoys pain, does not provide a basis for saying it is a healthy component of an experience. Your comparison is still logically invalid for what you are trying to prove. Your comparison was a fallacy of equivalence. Physical pain is an objective sensation we are programmed to normally hate for survival reasons. There is no parallel to that in playing support in a MOBA unless you presume it is an objectively painful experience that people should be naturally programmed to hate but somehow they like it and are thus unusual. Nothing about your analogy holds up because you start with the presumption that people shouldn't normally enjoy playing a gold funneling position, but your premise is unproven to begin with. You can't build a valid argument on an unproven premise.
: i just saw it as fascism vs communism. VIVA LA COMMUNIDAD
> [{quoted}](name=PENTAKILL Shovel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEkF271K,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-02T04:44:09.007+0000) > > i just saw it as fascism vs communism. VIVA LA COMMUNIDAD You need to study some real history then. Facism and communism in practice have always been the same. A small corrupt elite controls the country's resources and dictates policy from the top down without accountability to the masses, which ultimately serves the interests of the elite at the expense of the masses. You can't put evil people in charge and not get evil results. It doesn't matter what kind of system you have. Likewise, you can put good people in charge of any system and you'll get good results. The reason we don't like totalitarian systems is because we don't trust that only perfectly good people will get into power, so we try to limit the damage they can do by limiting their power. That's why the only person who has ever been, and will ever be, fit to rule over the entire earth is God himself, through the person of Jesus, who is perfectly good in character and all knowing in ability to judge. Only then is paradise restored to the earth, the state of paradise we had before man fell by following the will of satan (whose only goal was to kill, steal, and destroy).
: REading comprehension: I said your argument is NOT unsound.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=0000000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:35:02.756+0000) > > REading comprehension: I said your argument is NOT unsound. Noted and correction made. All my arguments still stand.
: I mean, I know someone who genuinely enjoys self-inflicted pain. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is right to force that upon people simply because 'fun is subjective' and 'one person likes it'. But no, my 'entire argument' was not predicated on that... so invalidating that one component does not override any other part of my post's validity.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:03:13.087+0000) > > I mean, I know someone who genuinely enjoys self-inflicted pain. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is right to force that upon people simply because 'fun is subjective' and 'one person likes it'. Logical fallacy, false equivalence. (your second time making this mistake, I rarely see people commit this fallacy) There is no logical connection between causing physical pain to yourself for pleasure and playing support in a MOBA. You make presumptions that are unproven. You presume it is true that playing support in a MOBA is an objectively painful experience (as triggering the pain receptors in a body is objectively painful), rather than merely a subjectively painful experience (as you apparently find it to be) - but your presumption is unproven. So this particular argument is invalidated because your premise is wrong, based on fallacious logic, and as a result my points stand unrefuted by you. > But no, my 'entire argument' was not predicated on that... so invalidating that one component does not override any other part of my post's validity. Your entire post was based on the premise that nobody likes using that strategy to win. I have talked to people who do. So your premise is disproven. You need to come up with a new premise and build a new argument around that.
: I am interested in LoL precisely because it is NOT DotA. I bet a lot of LoL players feel the same. Applying DotA logic to LoL is a surefire way to lose a lot of the playerbase. That being said, your argument isn't unsound, but the end result of it is an environment where Riot essentially shouldn't ever change anything because eventually players will adapt to it. And I don't like that line of thinking. Like, the same argument could be used to justify Riot not making the changes that enabled funneling in the first place too.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=00000000000100010000,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:01:06.850+0000) > > I am interested in LoL precisely because it is NOT DotA. I bet a lot of LoL players feel the same. > > Applying DotA logic to LoL is a surefire way to lose a lot of the playerbase. Logical fallacy, irrelevent conclusion. Merely stating that LoL is not Dota does nothing to prove your original claims or disprove what I said. You would have to give details in a logical way about how they are different and why that fact proves or disproves anything said in this thread. Logical fallacy, avoiding the issue. I pointed out the flawed line of reasoning you were using by trying to argue against gold funneling, and your comment makes no attempt to disprove my rebuttal, but your comment merely servers to avoids the issue. I will repost what I said for you: _The fact remains that you cannot demonize it as somehow being an abberation of standard MOBA gameplay when it is in fact currently a part of LoL's gameplay (Supports still sacrifice all CS to the carry), has been since season 1, and has been a part of MOBA strategy itself since the beginning with Dota. _ >but the end result of it is an environment where Riot essentially shouldn't ever change anything because eventually players will adapt to it. No one said Riot would never change anything. We said they would change based on legitimate balance issues, not merely change based on forcing a subjective preference for a certain playstyle. Gold funneling mid lane was not a legitimate balance issue. It was easier to counter than it was to pull off. It only worked as a boosting strat because you had skilled players cooperating against unskilled players. But two high elo players smurfing will be able to carry a game almost all the time anyway even without this particular strategy. High elo solo boosters can achieve 80-95% winrates smurfing at low elo without the benefit of even another teammate smurf. So a smurf duo is unstoppable on any champion combination. This just happened to be the most efficient strat avaiable for them so why not. Low elo players trying this strat were not going to get the same results at their own elo that smurfs would, because skill, game knowledge, and coordination are still the primarily determining factors of whether or nor you'll win a game. >Like, the same argument could be used to justify Riot not making the changes that enabled funneling in the first place too. Riot never changed the game to insert gold funneling into the game. As I already explained to you, the ability has been in since day 1.
: I have not yet heard anyone playing the funneling role say they enjoy it. Ever. Not everyone enjoys winning regardless of what they do. In fact, given the number of one-tricks, single-role players, and people playing game modes like ARAM/URF... I have the feeling there's a lot more to 'fun' than just winning. I know there is for me. I hate winning a bad game. I would rather lose a good game than win a bad one. And I feel like most people, whether they're willing to admit it or not, feel largely the same way. A good game is fun regardless of whether you win or lose. A bad game is boring regardless of win or lose. But people WILL do something they hate to win, because they want to climb. So if funneling is the strongest strategy, people who hate it will be forced to do it - well, either that or quit the game. Not to mention that there are three roles not at all involved in the funnel and an entire enemy team who has no say in whether you do it. Which basically means 2 players decide they want to funnel, and the remaining 8 suffer for it. As far as Assassins go... there is interactivity to a good assassin. Unless they get super fed, they can rarely ACTUALLY kill you before you can react, and if you're paying attention and playing well as a team, you can respond to it. That's why they got rid of old Talon, and were trying to adjust Leblanc's damage, etc. Ahri is almost never 'guaranteed to kill' unless she has done something to take away your abilities to AVOID being killed(ie. forced a flash/zhonyas/ga/qss/etc.). And forcing THAT stuff is interactive. For Caitlyn, that's why they try to keep her from being too strong actually. It's one of the reasons why they're tentative to buff crit marksmen items again, is that if Caitlyn is too strong, she creates a bland gamestate. But if she's not too strong, then when you play against her, you just need to take advantage of the points during the game she's weak to keep her down. And that creates an interesting strategic puzzle, even if the actual laning against her can be not that fun. Not to mention that laning against assassins is an extremely interactive opportunity to slow them down. Especially melee assassins. Well, unless there's a funnel comp making it so you have no opportunities to interact during the laning phase.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T16:16:03.649+0000) > > I have not yet heard anyone playing the funneling role say they enjoy it. Ever. I have. So I guess your whole post falls apart then, because your premise was just disproven.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-02T07:40:52.243+0000) > > 1. That's fine. Racism is as old as America, doesn't make it good. Funneling is about telling palyers 'you're useless so don't take resources'. Supports in LoL have some components to make up for the 0 gold concept that DotA started, but the funneling jungler just gets nothing. So basically you're sacrificing one player's enjoyment for another's... on the same team. > > 2. Very few people enjoy uninteractive experiences. Funneling basically removes 'laning' from the midlane, which a LOT of midlane players enjoy. If it is too prevalent, it's a problem. > > Edit: Before someone makes a big deal of it, I'm not saying Funneling is like racism or equating the two. It was just an example of something that had been around for a long time... that most people would agree was not correct. The point is simply to say that something being around for a long time does not make it right, fun, or good. Hey. Did you know back in season 1 and 2 there was a position called "roaming"? The Roaming role was taken by the extra player (who was usually the support) and their entire job was to semi-counter jungle (take the small monsters and a little XP tax from lanes) and either set up kills with their CC or keep the enemy jungle safe for a laner to counter jungle. Sound familiar? At all? Roaming was killed when the 1/1/1/2 meta solidified and riot changed jungle camps and XP, but it was essentially a wide-scale funneling strat which allowed the mid lane and the ADC or jungle to get more gold and XP faster. Further, "fun" is subjective. Your entire argument assumes that "one person is having fun at the expense of another" but... thats simply how competition works. Losing is not fun. Winning is fun, and its its a CHOICE if someone funnels. They choose to play that strategy. No ones forcing them to funnel. By your logic all assassins should be removed from the game because theyre not fun to play against. Ahri should be removed from the game because she non-interactive. Caitlyn should be removed from the game because shes non-interactive. Ekko should be removed from the game because its not to get instantly blown up. Well, its fun for the Ahri player to stay safe until shes guranteed a kill. Its fun for the caitlyn player to toss out pot shots until she can ult for a kill. Its fun as frag for the ekko to oneshot a level 18 squishy with only 400AP. And for the funnelers? Its fun to win. Its fun to feel like youre _helping_. Its fun to feel like youre _contributing to the team in a way other than "hold lane dont die dont feed and let the marksman carry"_.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-02T09:25:19.988+0000) > > Hey. > Did you know back in season 1 and 2 there was a position called "roaming"? > The Roaming role was taken by the extra player (who was usually the support) and their entire job was to semi-counter jungle (take the small monsters and a little XP tax from lanes) and either set up kills with their CC or keep the enemy jungle safe for a laner to counter jungle. > > Sound familiar? At all? > Roaming was killed when the 1/1/1/2 meta solidified and riot changed jungle camps and XP, but it was essentially a wide-scale funneling strat which allowed the mid lane and the ADC or jungle to get more gold and XP faster. > > Further, "fun" is subjective. Your entire argument assumes that "one person is having fun at the expense of another" but... thats simply how competition works. Losing is not fun. Winning is fun, and its its a CHOICE if someone funnels. They choose to play that strategy. No ones forcing them to funnel. > By your logic all assassins should be removed from the game because theyre not fun to play against. Ahri should be removed from the game because she non-interactive. Caitlyn should be removed from the game because shes non-interactive. Ekko should be removed from the game because its not to get instantly blown up. > > Well, its fun for the Ahri player to stay safe until shes guranteed a kill. > Its fun for the caitlyn player to toss out pot shots until she can ult for a kill. > Its fun as frag for the ekko to oneshot a level 18 squishy with only 400AP. > > And for the funnelers? Its fun to win. Its fun to feel like youre _helping_. Its fun to feel like youre _contributing to the team in a way other than "hold lane dont die dont feed and let the marksman carry"_. Exactly. When people starting throwing around fun as an argument for something in MOBAs you always know they don't have a valid game design argument, because not only is fun subjective but fun is determined usually by whether or not someone is winning. Nobody likes losing to something, so they label it as unfun to play against.
: 1. That's fine. Racism is as old as America, doesn't make it good. Funneling is about telling palyers 'you're useless so don't take resources'. Supports in LoL have some components to make up for the 0 gold concept that DotA started, but the funneling jungler just gets nothing. So basically you're sacrificing one player's enjoyment for another's... on the same team. 2. Very few people enjoy uninteractive experiences. Funneling basically removes 'laning' from the midlane, which a LOT of midlane players enjoy. If it is too prevalent, it's a problem. Edit: Before someone makes a big deal of it, I'm not saying Funneling is like racism or equating the two. It was just an example of something that had been around for a long time... that most people would agree was not correct. The point is simply to say that something being around for a long time does not make it right, fun, or good.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YirPaKTO,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-02T07:40:52.243+0000) > > 1. That's fine. Racism is as old as America, doesn't make it good. Logical fallacy, false equivalence. Your analogy has no logical comparative value, and as such does nothing to disprove my argument. > Funneling is about telling palyers 'you're useless so don't take resources'. Your characterization is wrong and ignorant. No top player or pro in Dota looks at their supports that way. They are incredibly valuable members of the team that are essential to victory. Your perception could only reflect your own personal hangups and lack of teamwork which causes you to think that anyone who isn't getting all the kills on a team is somehow useless and not having fun. I actually enjoy support roles when I have carry players worth supporting. I actually enjoy enabling other players to succeed in indirect ways more than having to be the one who hard carries. >So basically you're sacrificing one player's enjoyment for another's... on the same team. Whether or not you personally like the strategy is irrelevant to disproving what I said. The fact remains that you cannot demonize it as somehow being an abberation of standard MOBA gameplay when it is in fact currently a part of LoL's gameplay (Supports still sacrifice all CS to the carry), has been since season 1, and has been a part of MOBA strategy itself since the beginning with Dota. > 2. Very few people enjoy uninteractive experiences. You are misusing that term. Interactive: _ influencing or having an effect on each other._ The enemy duo midlaners do have an influence and effect on the midlaner. If the solo midlaner doesn't have any ability to do the same, it's because they are 1vs2 against superior players and are being shut own. But that's what happens when people use teamwork against you. You would, in fact, find 2 skilled players coordinating against only one will usually always shut them down and they don't need particular champions in order to do that. That's why we don't leave ADCs alone in their lane against two enemies. You cannot expect to be in a solo lane against two enemies and expect to thrive. You need a new strategy. You need corresponding help from your jungler or other laners. Or you need to come up with something else that is totally unique that nullifies what they are doing. LS said the stratgy was easier to shut down than it was to execute. That's why it saw no high elo usage. So obviously there is a way to respond to it. You just need to stop doing the same thing and expecting different results. You need to learn to adapt. The very foundation of all strategy gaming is seeking ways to put the enemy into positions where you can act on them but they are limited in what they can do to you. It is the responsibility of the opposing team to find a strategy or tactic that will allow them to restore their control over the situation. Only when there exists no viable counter strategy can something be labeled as legitimately unbalanced. >Funneling basically removes 'laning' from the midlane, which a LOT of midlane players enjoy. If it is too prevalent, it's a problem. This gets to the core of the problem. You're trying to force players to behave in a certain way that you have decided they should based on subjective ideas about is or is not acceptable gameplay in the mid lane. It is precisely this hyper controlling attitude towards crafting the meta that leads to the game being competitively stale. The game use to have the philosophy that they weren't going to try to force players to play a certain way to win the game, but were just going to provide the tools and see what they come up with. That's why it was interesting.
Drawxne (NA)
: For People Wanting a Better Understanding of the Pros & Cons for both God-King Garen and Darius...
> [{quoted}](name=Drawxne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEkF271K,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-01T21:49:13.492+0000) > > Garen is YHWH, representing Law. He offers the safety of community and order, where everything has its place in a perfect structured system. When taken to extremes, however, this leads to a totalitarian society where there is very little individuality and free will. > > Darius is Lucifer, representing Chaos. He offers unbound freedom and opportunity for all, free from the limiting shackles of laws and governments. When taken to extremes, however, this leads to total anarchy where safety is never guaranteed, always having to look over your shoulder in case someone wants to take your power for their own. > > In short, neither side is good or evil. Both have their merits, as well as their flaws. Simply choose the side that appeals more to you, but please don't paint a misinformed picture of one side having the moral high ground over the other. I recognized the attemped parallels when they released. However, it's important to note that both sides are based on major distortions of YHWH and Satan. Garen and Darius don't actually repesent the Biblical truth of God and satan, but actually represent what followers of satan believer to be true. Satan was a liar from the beginning, and it was believing his lies that caused man to fall from perfection. Satan continues to lie, and has convinced Luciferians that there is no such thing as good or evil, that God is a tyrant who just wants to control them, and that lucifer promises them freedom. The truth is that Satan wants to destroy them by separating them from God, the source of life, and the freedom he promises ends up just being enslavement to the will of satan. That's what he did to mankind originally, and what he continues to keep doing. There's no such thing as neutral ground in this world, you either serve God or satan. A proper parallel, therefore, would be to say that Darius is decieving everyone who follows him. He actually intends to enslave everyone who follows him while promising freedom. He probably knows he cant actually defeat Garen, so his only real goal is to cause as much death, destruction, and suffering as he can before he's finally defeated. Darius distorts what Garen does to paint it in a negative light, as a way of decieving people into turning against him. But the truth is, Garen does out of love he has the good will of all people in mind (if we are being a proper Biblical parallel, and not going by what Garen's voiceovers actually say). Any judgement brought against individuals is always done with a perfect understanding of what is necessary and right for the long term safety of everyone.
Risen29 (NA)
: The mid/jungle duo nerfs typify everything wrong with this game's design philosophy
Your hypothetical argument is a waste of time because the entire strategy was suboptimal to begin with. It was never going to replace the standard set up. That's also why it had no business being nerfed. You are only arbitrarily limiting the amount of strategic expression allowed to players for the sake of appeasing whiners who don't want to put out the effort to grow and adapt.
: Riot is not trying to destroy the changes to the bot lane, so clearly the problem is not 'meta violated'. The problem is that playing against these strategies is NOT FUN. I have not encountered a single person who enjoys playing against funnels due to the reduction in interactivity and the 'time bomb' feeling it builds. Riot is trying to maintain funnels as a possible strategy while reducing the frequency with which it is the optimal strategy.
Your premise is wrong for two reasons: 1. Funneling is as old as the MOBA itself. It's called team strategy. It's where the concept of the carry and the support comes from. Dota in the early days was hardcore about funneling as much gold into the carry as possible to the point where you had two supports who barely had items, and they would help the carry absorb exp from multiple lanes and jungle camps to the extent that was possible. The problem is not that the strat is unreasonable to deal with, but because people dont want to deal with change. 2. "fun" is a bad line of argumentation because it's subjective, shifting, and doesn't necessarily reflect sound game design. People find urf fun, but then they quit the game. So obviously just because they thought it was fun doesn't mean it is a viable approach to game design. People often have a kneejerk reaction to think things are unfun because they lose to it, or it forces them to think and adapt instead of going on autopilot what they've already learned to do. But they may actually find it more fun and fulfilling in the long run when a game challenges them to grow.
Rioter Comments
: Aatrox's WIP banner wings from the AMA
: Haven't been home to play. Also acting like there was sufficient data to make an accurate hotfix. The hotfix came out at like 3 PM. That's 6 hours after the patch drops. People, including riot, need to stop enforcing kneejerk reactions.
> [{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qk6MBEKs,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-29T01:50:28.589+0000) > > Haven't been home to play. ... kneejerk reactions. The only one making a kneejerk reaction here is you. You haven't even played the game since the patch came out and you presume to declare people are just whining with no basis. Your post is garbage because you don't know what you're talking about and you're a hypocrit. Anyone who has actually played Aatrox knows better.
: > [{quoted}](name=Risen29,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Lkf3qwt8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-06-28T16:10:23.894+0000) > > There is no meta shift. > For some reason low elo players are just under the impression there has been a shift so they take it as an excuse to pick garbage into the bot lane, and then think it's good when it works because garbage works in silver. > > Come talk to us when you see master+ korean games doing this with any significant frequency, let alone pro games. Only then has the game truly shifted. Lux ADC in lcs, vlad ADC in lck, karma ADC in lcs, lulu ADC yasuo ADC ... These are only the game I bothered to watch
> [{quoted}](name=LightIsMyPath,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Lkf3qwt8,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2018-06-29T01:32:19.311+0000) > > Lux ADC in lcs, vlad ADC in lck, karma ADC in lcs, lulu ADC yasuo ADC ... These are only the game I bothered to watch Literally 1 game of lux doesn't constitute a meta shift. You also have to pull up the specific game to see if there was a marksman somewhere else in the team comp. That's what happened last time a few people played ziggs bot - They either had a marksmen in the support position or top/mid. Even if you find games with no marksmen, they are probably less than 1% of pro games. You can't say the entire meta has shifted because of isolated examples of off comps.
: I think it's pretty self-explanatory. They are balanced with the intention of facing other on-hit champions and being vulnerable(squishy, lack of mobility). Aatrox, Yi, Trynd, Kayle, WW and co. all have some kind of additional protection or target access to ensure they can be relevant because they are melee. ADCs don't have this, generally speaking. You won't see ADCs with Aatroxes natural healing, Yi's mobility, Trynd's dash spamming + w slow, WW's healing, Kayle's invulnerability, etc. ADCs are weak when you're close to them. Melee ADCs are weak when you're kiting them, but for many of them that's difficult because of the tools in their kit to make them viable (or healing to ignore your harass). The part both ranged and melee ADCs share is that they can just outtrade champions through pure autoattack dpsing. Ranged champs are more vulnerable, less mobile( have less target access). Ranged ADCs have less tools to cover being in melee than melee ADCs having tools to cover not being near their target.
> [{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u5RIevyN,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-29T01:00:45.844+0000) > > I think it's pretty self-explanatory. That word doesn't mean what you think it does. Self-explanitory: _easily understood; not needing explanation._ You said: " Err, the difference between ranged autoattacks and melee autoattacks is huge." Your statement explains absolutely nothing. You aren't even capable of being clear enough in your thought process, with this sentence, to make clear if you think being "hugely different" is a good or bad thing in favor of the melee. > They are balanced with the intention of facing other on-hit champions and being vulnerable(squishy, lack of mobility). Again you don't know how to communicate with clarity. Who is balanced with that intention? Marksmen or Skirmishers? >Aatrox, Yi, Trynd, Kayle, WW and co. all have some kind of additional protection or target access to ensure they can be relevant because they are melee. ADCs don't have this, generally speaking. You won't see ADCs with Aatroxes natural healing, Yi's mobility, Trynd's dash spamming + w slow, WW's healing, Kayle's invulnerability, etc. ADCs are weak when you're close to them. Melee ADCs are weak when you're kiting them, but for many of them that's difficult because of the tools in their kit to make them viable (or healing to ignore your harass). > The part both ranged and melee ADCs share is that they can just outtrade champions through pure autoattack dpsing. Ranged champs are more vulnerable, less mobile( have less target access). Ranged ADCs have less tools to cover being in melee than melee ADCs having tools to cover not being near their target. You're confusing explaining the difference between Melee and ranged ADCs with explaining how that proves your claim to be true. You haven't done the later. So your entire pos is pointless. There's nothing in what you just said that proves why your original claim to be true that melee ADCs can't be balanced.
: Sure let's just ignore {{champion:6}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:72}} champs who've basically been more or less replaced with a new champion outright upon rework. At least that's what a lot of players on the boards claim. Nonetheless it's the same shit different story. Champ who was underwhelming for prolonged periods of time, community asks for rework, Riot takes the rework to a different level than what the community expects (mainly Aatrox mains and OTPs), and the whiners make posts non-stop to omit the rework, thousands of posts about how players would rework them instead of Riot's version, "good-byes" are posted all over the boards, the rework comes out and there's so many, "this is so wrong" posts." Everyone's bickering is the same. Rhaast would agree, "You're not special, just one of many." Meanwhile there are players who have a more positive approach and appreciate the reworks regardless, whether they're new to the champ in general or old OTPs. I know of many veteran Talon players who would kill for Cuttrhroat to come back and others who are absolutely satisfied with his rework. Same goes for the rest of the reworked champs. There's always going to be the players who refuse to go on and 'grieve' hoping that one day Riot will revert. And there are players who will go about there day and see what's next in store for the champion that just got their makeover.
Calling valid objections whining doesn't prove any point, nor disprove any point we've made. It is wrong to show such disrespect for champions that people love that you don't even make an attempt to preserve who they were. Successful reworks have shown respect to the champion and tried to preserve what they are, and who they are, for the fans. Yorick is a good example where they this. Nobody complained. They preserved his personality and built upon aspects of his limited lore in positive ways. His kit was a reasonable attempt at adapting what was there to be something new. Aatrox is neither of those. Different personality. A different lore that many don't find as compelling. And no attempt at all is made to adapt his playstyle to be something new. Everything went out the window except resurrecting and his visual look.
: The most difficult to play juggernaut by far and does poorly day one since his playstyle is completely different from everyone elses? Who could have EVER guessed that?
You're spouting garbage because you haven't even played him yet. He's getting hotfixed for a reason. Reasons that are plainly obvious to anyone who has played him.
: Welcome to the club. Come have a seat next to most of the mains of previously reworked champions. There's a chair next to me (old swain main) and my friend ( old talon main) you can use. Just dont complain too much or the karma mains will bit your ears off.
> [{quoted}](name=Skeletons Grave,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u5RIevyN,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2018-06-28T20:04:25.774+0000) > > Welcome to the club. Come have a seat next to most of the mains of previously reworked champions. There's a chair next to me (old swain main) and my friend ( old talon main) you can use. Just dont complain too much or the karma mains will bit your ears off. At least they tried to stay true to what Talon was and how he worked. As a former Talon main I was ok with it conceptually. But Aatrox is a pretty bad example of just deleting a champion outright and creating something new out of thin air. I was disappointed with the swain rework. They just deleted swain the mage tank and replaced him with a new champion outright.
: Err, the difference between ranged autoattacks and melee autoattacks is huge. Trying playing Kayle without her E on.
> [{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u5RIevyN,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-28T17:39:59.173+0000) > > Err, the difference between ranged autoattacks and melee autoattacks is huge. > > Trying playing Kayle without her E on. Saying the difference is huge doesn't even mean anything. You could be saying they are hugely worse. You have to quantify why you think they are different.
: Hey you'll notice I said "melee"
> [{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u5RIevyN,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-28T17:30:31.896+0000) > > Hey you'll notice I said "melee" What you didn't notice is that an auto attack scaling champion is an auto attack champion regardless of whether they are melee or ranged. The same damage output and item usage is there. Except melee ADCs are at a huge disadvantage compared with marksmen, which is why they aren't that viable at high elo and see no pro play. So there's no reason for you to lose your mind over melee ADCs existing.
: Every time I brought this up the only feedback I would get is "no one cares about Twisted Treeline". It's a dead game mode, the most you'll see is occasional bug fixes.
> [{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BcMEuEc5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-28T15:24:46.695+0000) > > Every time I brought this up the only feedback I would get is "no one cares about Twisted Treeline". > It's a dead game mode, the most you'll see is occasional bug fixes. They have no business even having a ranked mode for it when it gets no attention. Handing out challenger rewards each season for a game mode people forget even exists.
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Risen29

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