Pika Fox (NA)
: I think the better statement is that the general LoL playerbase doesnt know jack about how game design works, or what is actually fair or unfair, toxic or healthy.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kzbBTL1o,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-06-24T01:07:40.275+0000) > > I think the better statement is that the general LoL playerbase doesnt know jack about how game design works, or what is actually fair or unfair, toxic or healthy. I wanted the title to reflect the point that there are going to be playstyles you don't like and that doesn't make them unhealthy, and for all the flak Asian players get on this board they have an important perspective.
: >When they're strong.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kzbBTL1o,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-06-24T01:00:07.067+0000) > > What does that even mean? I told you that strength does not correlate with interactivity, and China's definition of fairness is based on interactivity. Interactivity is not solely in the context of 1v1s or scrapping with your opponent, because if that was the case midlaners and ADCs would be massively buffed to be self-sufficient and I don't know a single rational person who wants that. Interactivity means you have options in the laning phase that don't involve letting them do whatever they want. Lanes you have to freeze aren't necessarily uninteractive as you'll probably poke these champions down. Uninteractive matchups are ones where, against a good player, you have no options outside of just letting the player do what they want or getting a counterpick. Nothing you said makes sense in that context.
: The differences seem more like the question being asked didn't translated well between each language. The NA players were answering what champions they felt was not fun to play against and the chinese players were answering what champions were not interactive to play against. The specific words were probably close approximations on a superficial level but didn't properly convey the same meanings. I would be more interested to see how these answers translated into what people banned in china (since it is the only server that most stat tracking websites don't readily have information for).
> [{quoted}](name=haaaaaaalp,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kzbBTL1o,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-23T23:23:29.797+0000) > > The differences seem more like the question being asked didn't translated well between each language. The NA players were answering what champions they felt was not fun to play against and the chinese players were answering what champions were not interactive to play against. The specific words were probably close approximations on a superficial level but didn't properly convey the same meanings. > > I would be more interested to see how these answers translated into what people banned in china (since it is the only server that most stat tracking websites don't readily have information for). No. They asked which felt the least fair. If you look at the differences in playstyles, it's understandable why they'd think slow paced, control style gameplay are unenjoyable. NA players, being the extraordinarily pseudo-passive players they are (I fall asleep every time I watch an amateur competitive tourney), don't like anything that can prevent them from playing passively. This includes things that run them down if they misposition. Chinese players are very aggressive and, as described by MULTIPLE streamers, pick fights at level 1, and their favorite champions (Lee Sin is a particular favorite for this reason) are ones that can lv1 5v5. Naturally, it would make sense that champions that discourage all interaction are the ones they feel are the least fair to play against.
: Anyone who actually knows anything about the game will say unfair champions are the ones who-- when they're strong-- you can't interact with. Mundo is not currently unfair because he's currently weak. But that isn't always the case. Same for champions like Volibear, Udyr, Jax, etc. The ones with very simple kits have no counterplay when their damage and defenses are high enough.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kzbBTL1o,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-23T18:58:18.399+0000) > > Anyone who actually knows anything about the game will say unfair champions are the ones who-- when they're strong-- you can't interact with. > > Mundo is not currently unfair because he's currently weak. But that isn't always the case. Same for champions like Volibear, Udyr, Jax, etc. The ones with very simple kits have no counterplay when their damage and defenses are high enough. That's not true at all. You can absolutely interact with Jax in the lane phase. You can fight him when you spike harder than him, you can control the wave if you're at a disadvantage, and you can win through other methods. On top of that, your metric is "if they're strong they're unfair." Well, yeah. If any champion is S tier they're unfair. That's not insightful or helpful. The Chinese particularly hate these champions because even if they're weak, they discouraged all forms of interaction. Heimerdinger is not an A or S tier mid/botlaner. However, you can't do anything in these lanes because if you try being aggressive, he'll have pushed so hard that you lose due to minions. So the only thing you can do is match his push and wait for him to fall off. Old Nunu was like this as well. There was literally no point to chasing a Nunu in the jungle. He'd slow you massively and then walk away. This is uninteractive gameplay. It's just not worth it to try interacting with them. There's no point in the early game where they're weak as you're forced to come at them. That's very different from some short ranged, strong early game champion that needs to pick fights to stay relevant. Even if said short ranged champion is overtuned.
Rioter Comments
Yenn (NA)
: Because mid lane is dominated by champions who boil down to 'kill the opponent before they kill you.' Lux out-ranges them and retains the potential to burst them down, while her root makes it hard to assassinate her, making her a safe pick and effective pick against virtually everything. Once she gets nerfed, Xerath will probably take her place.
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAkJsvl4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-20T06:04:31.822+0000) > > Because mid lane is dominated by champions who boil down to 'kill the opponent before they kill you.' > Lux out-ranges them and retains the potential to burst them down, while her root makes it hard to assassinate her, making her a safe pick and effective pick against virtually everything. > > Once she gets nerfed, Xerath will probably take her place. Lux is solely used as a counter pick to Zoe at a competitive level and Xerath is a fucking meme of a champion. Did you crawl out of a cave or something? She's meta going bot lane, running Aftershock, and maxing W.
: The lane is won or lost at champ select. Welcome to adc for the past 5 years my dude.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v30ZJ3Ex,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-06-19T17:49:19.506+0000) > > The lane is won or lost at champ select. > > > Welcome to adc for the past 5 years my dude. Maybe one day you'll make a good post. But that day is not today.
: and i was playing against a leblank smurf in euw, that's actually a challanger and was streaming on his smurf. While getting my smurf to g4 as well. still won. I don't think "better Zeds than you'll ever see in your life" counts since, well you know, eu mid laners. half of your pro scene in murica is eu mid laners or koreans. I'd get if you'd say any other role, but sorry. NA mids are quite worse than other servers. Including your zeds. And the fact still stands, the QSS doesn't' work vs Zed. And I still get downvoted for your mistake, lovely. But hey, you still refuse to play Zed a little amount of 10 games to see why others complain about him. Wow, shocking.
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-19T15:56:53.300+0000) > > and i was playing against a leblank smurf in euw, that's actually a challanger and was streaming on his smurf. While getting my smurf to g4 as well. > still won. > > I don't think "better Zeds than you'll ever see in your life" counts since, well you know, eu mid laners. > half of your pro scene in murica is eu mid laners or koreans. > > I'd get if you'd say any other role, but sorry. NA mids are quite worse than other servers. Including your zeds. > And the fact still stands, the QSS doesn't' work vs Zed. And I still get downvoted for your mistake, lovely. > > But hey, you still refuse to play Zed a little amount of 10 games to see why others complain about him. Wow, shocking. 1. Lemme see the clip of you beating the LB and proof of that being your account. You can op.gg me any time and see the game vs. the Zed. All I see when i look at your account is a match vs. bots and that's already a fantastic sign. 2. I'd wager Stylish is the best Zed player in the west. I've played vs. him a number of times. I still don't feel that Zed is particularly oppressive. 3. I pointed out the QSS was a mistake that I made due to tiredness and not paying attention to the post/champion I was writing about. Do you really want to die on that hill? 4. I try practice Zed in normals. The more I play him the more I realize his glaring flaws. The champion is very obviously not as strong as people make him out to be. He lacks the consistent pressure and wave control of other mids, and while he more killing power his kill pattern has so much more counterplay than most of the champions that also plague low elo. tl;dr git gud
: > [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-06-19T04:11:47.702+0000) > > He still has the same counterplay, including dodging his shurikens, Zhonya's, QSS, teamfight, and keep track of what shadows he's used. He also has no lane presence for the first 3-4 waves so you can set up massively for him. > Are you the OP ? because it sounds like you didn't play as Zed or against Zed in like 4 seasons QSS no longer removes his ult. You should reevaluate all your points about Zed, maybe play him 5-10 times, then come back to us and say what you learned (besides the QSS is useless)
> [{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-06-19T05:02:55.210+0000) > > Are you the OP ? because it sounds like you didn't play as Zed or against Zed in like 4 seasons > > QSS no longer removes his ult. You should reevaluate all your points about Zed, maybe play him 5-10 times, then come back to us and say what you learned (besides the QSS is useless) Nah I was just thinking about the counterplay to Morde and I blanked out and said QSS. Fact of the matter is I play vs. better Zeds than you'll ever see in your life. Just played vs. a Zed smurf (65% winrate over 260 games, Master tier, fresh account) and I didn't die until the last teamfight. I don't think he's an issue because he's very easy to control in the first 3-4 minutes of the laning phase and you can use that to set the tempo for the rest of the lane. But most people see this game as a fighting game and it shows when they think Zed is OP.
: 300+ consecutive games banning Zed - Heres a few things I've learned.
> [{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-19T01:53:30.951+0000) > > 1. Worth it, meaning no other single ban has more capacity for making a match fair/playable. Yuumi, lmao. Champion is gross and chokes out games when she's even. > 2. No other champ has the same capacity for roaming and wrecking an entire game all by itself. Talon > 3. Riot deletes anti-Zed posts. You mean like the Zed/Yasuo posts that go up to +50 once a week? > 4. Counterplay in league exists, just not on Zed who's been welfare pumped time and again into some rioters faker wet dream. He still has the same counterplay, including dodging his shurikens, Zhonya's, QSS, teamfight, and keep track of what shadows he's used. He also has no lane presence for the first 3-4 waves so you can set up massively for him. > 5. His range + damage on Q is toxic and shouldn't exist. It's on a long CD, it's very easily punishable as he no longer has tools to control the wave, and buying armor goes a long way into making it not very much damage. > 6. His escape capacity is extremely toxic and shouldn't exist. It's got a 20+ second CD and can't be used if he's using it for his "toxic damage". > 7. His wave clear is extremely strong for ZERO mana. His waveclear also forces him to get into melee range of the wave, making him a very easy target for skillshots. It is strong, conditional waveclear and when he activates that condition it's very easy to punish him. At the end of the day you can ban whatever the hell you want but none of these points are good. EDIT: was writing this half afk. QSS doesn't work on Zed ultimate.
: Master Yi should not be able to build %health damage items and then go full tank.
Lmaooo getting shit on in a Yi comp with no enchanters. That's incredible.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: PSA to midlaners
1. Gameplay is not your vent space. Please do it elsewhere. 2. If the midlaner is down in cs, it's not because he's incapable of csing in a 1v0 scenario? Obviously they got destroyed in lane and that enabled their midlaner to roam, and the guy is just trying to play catch up. Suboptimal strategy? Sure. But people tend to do that when they got absolutely destroyed in lane.
: I rarely build Luden's anymore, the goal of a burst mage is to kill them with one rotation when you catch them with cc so you shouldn't need much cdr for most characters. The damage passive is nice but its better for poke characters, Morello's also gives nice damage and the grievous wounds passive is super relevant mid-late game. If you are mostly using your shortest cd spell in lane and only using your cc spells to finish them off then you don't need the mana either, especially with Ahri, not so much with the others you listed. Also, the health it gives you can help you survive enemy burst a lot as well. I build Luden's on aram though for the mana gain on level from lost chapter XD Also, cdr's effectiveness is mostly on long cd spells which you shouldn't be casting much. If your cc skills are off of cooldown your enemy has to respect it and play around it, but if you cast it even if you land it they will have a window of opportunity for a counterattack. Edit: I would definitely go Luden's if you aren't confident with managing your mana on your character or are playing long range poke/siege type of strat.
> [{quoted}](name=Zezockary,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lVxMjqT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-16T20:47:20.806+0000) > > I rarely build Luden's anymore, the goal of a burst mage is to kill them with one rotation when you catch them with cc so you shouldn't need much cdr for most characters. The damage passive is nice but its better for poke characters, Morello's also gives nice damage and the grievous wounds passive is super relevant mid-late game. > > If you are mostly using your shortest cd spell in lane and only using your cc spells to finish them off then you don't need the mana either, especially with Ahri, not so much with the others you listed. > > Also, the health it gives you can help you survive enemy burst a lot as well. > > I build Luden's on aram though for the mana gain on level from lost chapter XD > > Also, cdr's effectiveness is mostly on long cd spells which you shouldn't be casting much. If your cc skills are off of cooldown your enemy has to respect it and play around it, but if you cast it even if you land it they will have a window of opportunity for a counterattack. > > Edit: I would definitely go Luden's if you aren't confident with managing your mana on your character or are playing long range poke/siege type of strat. And then the enemy builds Hexdrinker. What do you do now? Fact of the matter is mages can't oneshot most characters, and the ones they can there's enough counterplay to prevent it. You might as well just maximize your utility and CC and rotations.
: Sorry if I'm wrong I don't play mages, but don't they sell it mid-late game?
No their site has gotten really buggy lately. Idk what it is but it's damn near unusable. > [{quoted}](name=Nerf Qiyana,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2lVxMjqT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-16T20:37:47.708+0000) > > Sorry if I'm wrong I don't play mages, but don't they sell it mid-late game? No 20% CDR and all that mana is way too useful for late-game DPS.
Rioter Comments
: Why do the worst players always refuse to surrender
As someone who rarely gets leads inside the laning phase I don't surrender because I know I can macro and turn the game around, or punish a really bad play and rubber band back into the game. There are times when I do surrender, but they're either because 1. a player is so insistent on giving up they make the game a 4v6 just by existing in their defeated state 2. the enemy team is stronger but nobody wants to make engages. That's the easiest way to draw out a losing game and it's extremely taxing 3. gold lead is 10k+ and the team doesn't know how to respond. 5k if their late-game scaling carry is ahead of everyone else w/ an egirl support since I know that player just won't die.
Taiyox (EUW)
: how they fuck should you play against mundo/sylas then? btw how can you post for over 7 months but still only be lvl 7 ? im confused mr -{{summoner:6}} {{summoner:1}} {{champion:27}}
> [{quoted}](name=Taiyox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3gEci1mj,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-06-08T18:00:15.276+0000) > > how they fuck should you play against mundo/sylas then? btw how can you post for over 7 months but still only be lvl 7 ? im confused mr > > -{{summoner:6}} {{summoner:1}} {{champion:27}} It's a smurf account. I can confirm his real level and rank are 138 and D4, respectively.
SirHydro (NA)
: Remember all this when Mord gets hot fixed =)
> [{quoted}](name=SirHydro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyZ8uyR5,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-05-30T16:28:28.407+0000) > > Remember all this when Mord gets hot fixed =) You mean when Riot either releases the champion overtuned and then has to nerf him you'll rub it in my face or Riot undertunes him, hotfix buffs him, and then immediately nerfs him you'll rub it in my face =) The point I was trying to make is that, while it looks like some unbalanceable nightmare on the outside, it's not overly different from a number of current mechanics and monkey NA players need to chill out. Give it some time, and wait before posting about how the ultimate is some unbalanceable mess.
: I guess I'm smoking the stuff that says that Reksai, Hecarim, Eve, Amumu, Nunu, Rammus, and Ivern are better jungles. Hell Karthus is 17th in overall jungle win rate. Clearly he's a monster. Meanwhile, nunu has been 53-54% win rate since his release and has only ever received minor buffs despite requiring pretty much no brain activity to play. So again, I'm asking who are the victims of Karthus jungle?
> [{quoted}](name=Morgana Deus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjYPbE32,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-29T21:18:55.398+0000) > > I guess I'm smoking the stuff that says that Reksai, Hecarim, Eve, Amumu, Nunu, Rammus, and Ivern are better jungles. > > Hell Karthus is 17th in overall jungle win rate. Clearly he's a monster. > > Meanwhile, nunu has been 53-54% win rate since his release and has only ever received minor buffs despite requiring pretty much no brain activity to play. > > So again, I'm asking who are the victims of Karthus jungle? Pro players, challenger elo, ya know just the average no-name shitters.
: Karthus victims let your voice be heard!
Karthus has been top 5 jungler (at worst, a number of patches he was the best) because of Dark Harvest for months now what are you smoking?
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyZ8uyR5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-27T21:37:26.249+0000) > > There's little value in taking a support AND yourself out of the game. On top of that the only stats you receive are base stats. you kidding? Janna taken out of the fight IS FUCKING HUGE LOL Janna's entire purpose is to cockblock the enemy team, she will be worth 0 if she gets ult by morde and dies and then the adc is left out with 0 peel LOL
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyZ8uyR5,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-27T23:59:13.743+0000) > > you kidding? Janna taken out of the fight IS FUCKING HUGE LOL > > Janna's entire purpose is to cockblock the enemy team, she will be worth 0 if she gets ult by morde and dies > > and then the adc is left out with 0 peel > LOL Taking a Janna out of a fight for free is huge. Taking out the support by trading the toplaner is... not so much. You're removing the main person Janna has to peel.
Sherogarth (EUNE)
: Lets face it: Mordekaiser's ult will become a balancing nightmare.
> [{quoted}](name=Sherogarth,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cyZ8uyR5,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-27T20:57:52.092+0000) > > **Problem No. 1 "A worthy oponent."** > Lets face the sad truth. How often will we see {{champion:82}} willingly targeting feed {{champion:266}} / {{champion:24}} / {{champion:11}}... with his ult? > Do you know who will be targeted insted? Champions that cant defend themselves and cant run away. > "Lets challenge this {{champion:350}} / {{champion:16}} / {{champion:40}} / 0/10 {{champion:157}} , they definitely looks like a good and fair fight." There's little value in taking a support AND yourself out of the game. On top of that the only stats you receive are base stats. > **Problem No. 2 "What happens in death realm stays in death realm... unless we are premade."** > Imagine a simple situation. You play on top vs {{champion:82}}. You killed him already and you are ahead in cs, he is no threat to you. You just spotted enemy jungler, {{champion:120}}, heading toward toplane so you turn around to evacuate to your turrent but then Morde ults you. He is not engaging you, he knows he cant win... but he can wait for his premade jungler to take good position on the other side. What do you do? Fight him? Even if you win there is his teammate waiting for you. Well, you can at last count on that his teammate will not know where you will reappear, right? Worng, they are on voice chat so he knows exactly where you are. GG fair duel. That's part of playing vs. him. You can't say Lissandra is unbalanced because she can use her ultimate in coordination with a jungler. Anyone can, especially if it's a crowd control type. Also, I imagine while he's there he can't see or deliver pings either. > **Problem No. 3 "Scrifacial {{champion:82}}"** > Another sitauation. You hard carry your team... 20/3/5 on {{champion:11}}, feels good. Just one more teamfight and the game game is yours. You go in and... poof, you are stuck in this death realm with this useless 0/10 "support" {{champion:82}} that went full tank.... How long will it take to kill him? 4-5s max. Once you are done with him you ready yourself to go into the teamfight... but your team is gone. Without it's only carry your teammates were decimated in seconds. Enemy team "traded" one support for one extermally feed carry. A worthy trade. ? How is this a problem. Mordekaiser will be decimated before he even gets remotely close to you, unless he gets off a good flank or your positioning is shit. And in this case what's to stop a crowd control tank or support from doing the exact same thing? > **Problem No. 4 "Left to die"** > And last situation. You and 2 other members of your team ecounter 4 members of enemy team (dragon/herald fight or whatever). Your team disengages and everyone is almost safe but then enemy {{champion:82}} ults you. This leaves 2 v 3 on the outside... your team decides to run for thier lives and leave you for certain death once you reappear, even if you menage to kill Morde there are 3 enemies waiting for you (or they are Irons and decide to go back 2v3 to save you... and all 3 of you die :D). And then you die because part of the utility in his old is trapping you. > One last thing... imagine all this in Proplay. Pros are gonna hate this champ. > Not that i care about esport nowadays anyway. If the range is too long, that's one thing, but you don't like legitimate and interesting uses for his ult because they punish your bad play or give Mordekaiser some flexibility outside of being a damage machine.
Kr1sys (NA)
: midlaners, could you explain why you afk under tower?
I gotta go get water Stay hydrated m8
: > [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bQYQdAUt,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-25T00:30:50.130+0000) > > I mean, every Korean and their mother also thinks jungle is broken. Most high elo players also agree. You get a lot of influence macro-wise (to be expected), but for how much you get in that regard you also get way too much champion strength due to being decently leveled, smite items being really good, and smite being a really strong damaging summoner spell. > > But please, with your 500 games of Warwick and a whopping 47% winrate do tell me how I'm wrong. While you're at it tell me how you can improve so that you can maintain a decent winrate this season. No shocker you're going there, but seriously, *you're the Graaaaand Master*. I'm lowly punk who can't climb. Why don't you show me? You're the one who's supposed to know better, but you aren't going to risk your Precious GrandMaster account playing jungle getting murdered on coinflips. It's much more likely you keep track of the strong meta champs and safely do your small party while someone else is really Carrying and taking care of the serious stuff each game. Like, totally, I could be wrong, show me. Put your grandmaster account where your mouth is. I laugh throwing these taunts cause you won't do it. You have bunches of experience on different champs on your account, should be no problem since role is so overpowered. LoL.
> [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bQYQdAUt,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-25T02:31:54.692+0000) > > No shocker you're going there, but seriously, *you're the Graaaaand Master*. I'm lowly punk who can't climb. Why don't you show me? You're the one who's supposed to know better, but you aren't going to risk your Precious GrandMaster account playing jungle getting murdered on coinflips. It's much more likely you keep track of the strong meta champs and safely do your small party while someone else is really Carrying and taking care of the serious stuff each game. Like, totally, I could be wrong, show me. Put your grandmaster account where your mouth is. I laugh throwing these taunts cause you won't do it. You have bunches of experience on different champs on your account, should be no problem since role is so overpowered. LoL. I'm going to ignore the part where you try to rank shame me and then claim victimhood cause you can't handle getting roasted back and get straight to the point. I don't play jungle. I play the other roles to some degree but it is my least favorite role and the role that interests me the least. That doesn't mean the role isn't broken or that I have no idea how the role works. I can read data and stats. I have personal experience playing with these people. I have to learn to work around these players. I also watch pathing videos so I can teach players how to track the jungler. It just means I don't want to play it. Lastly, I'd play meta champions as well. Why? Because they provide the most for the team and I don't want to intentionally gimp my team over my inflexibility. If that bothers you I'll just move right along. Anyone pretentious enough to think playing meta makes you a bad player is clearly just trying to compensate for being hardstuck, LOL.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bQYQdAUt,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-24T18:20:00.377+0000) > > Meanwhile jungle considered most broken role in Korea and the top 6 in NA are all jg main accounts. OMG think it through? Jungle is absolutely the strongest role to carry from if you can carry; no other role is going to have influence across as much of the map simply because the jungle roams continually, it's literally their job. In the same way jungle can make all these fabulous decisions to carry a game, jungle can also make total shit calls and blow the game entirely. You don't get more xp farming jungle, you get less. You have one less item slot, and one less summoner spell to choose. In lower elo levels you have to do most of what you do solo with no backup expected. When you see someone totally carrying the game from jungle, it's not luck, they are carrying because they have a clue what they are doing. - - - I'm fairly sure it's the hardest job, high risk high reward. Jungle, at least in NA, is now so abandoned because of the factors I mentioned where they gutted our xp, that anyone can queue jungle aha get jungle with certainty any time. I haven't been filled out of jungle in over 600 games, if you think it's the easiest role, by all means, queue up for jungle and climb those ranks. Edit: OMG LOL you have grandmaster rank! What a JOKE. You a grandmaster and you know this game so well and jungle is broken? Would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see you play ranked jungle for thirty days straight, you would drive your rank into the ground!
> [{quoted}](name=Ambitious Minnow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bQYQdAUt,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-24T22:02:00.493+0000) > > OMG think it through? Jungle is absolutely the strongest role to carry from if you can carry; no other role is going to have influence across as much of the map simply because the jungle roams continually, it's literally their job. In the same way jungle can make all these fabulous decisions to carry a game, jungle can also make total shit calls and blow the game entirely. > > You don't get more xp farming jungle, you get less. You have one less item slot, and one less summoner spell to choose. In lower elo levels you have to do most of what you do solo with no backup expected. When you see someone totally carrying the game from jungle, it's not luck, they are carrying because they have a clue what they are doing. - - - I'm fairly sure it's the hardest job, high risk high reward. > > Jungle, at least in NA, is now so abandoned because of the factors I mentioned where they gutted our xp, that anyone can queue jungle aha get jungle with certainty any time. I haven't been filled out of jungle in over 600 games, if you think it's the easiest role, by all means, queue up for jungle and climb those ranks. > > Edit: OMG LOL you have grandmaster rank! What a JOKE. You a grandmaster and you know this game so well and jungle is broken? Would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see you play ranked jungle for thirty days straight, you would drive your rank into the ground! I mean, every Korean and their mother also thinks jungle is broken. Most high elo players also agree. You get a lot of influence macro-wise (to be expected), but for how much you get in that regard you also get way too much champion strength due to being decently leveled, smite items being really good, and smite being a really strong damaging summoner spell. But please, with your 500 games of Warwick and a whopping 47% winrate do tell me how I'm wrong. While you're at it tell me how you can improve so that you can maintain a decent winrate this season.
Rioter Comments
Saezio (EUNE)
: The thing is, that only happens in lower elo. In high elo, junglers have really low impact because lanes are not morrons...
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bQYQdAUt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-23T20:26:12.420+0000) > > The thing is, that only happens in lower elo. In high elo, junglers have really low impact because lanes are not morrons... Meanwhile jungle considered most broken role in Korea and the top 6 in NA are all jg main accounts.
Kazekiba (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cchGaLRP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-16T17:11:19.853+0000) > > every high skilled players like Wickd already forsaw that the nerf was going to impact her a lot, +4 sec cd at all ranks on ANY spell is a kneecap on any champion > > remember when varus Q cd went up by 4 sec at all ranks and then his win rate went down to 42%? > What about a 3 second buff on your most important skill? Thats surely going to spike her already excessive w%
> [{quoted}](name=Kazekiba,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cchGaLRP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-16T18:02:12.336+0000) > > What about a 3 second buff on your most important skill? > Thats surely going to spike her already excessive w% Take away Riven's shield and she pops. Very quickly. Riot damn near doubled her late-game shield CD. That dps is useless if she doesn't have the survivability to output it. It also nerfs her lane trades as well as her interactions with Death's Dance.
: You all remember when you said Kai'sa was underpowered, and they buffed her?
Stats Base attack range increased to 525 from 500. General BUG FIX: Now correctly swaps out Aftershock rune Aftershock for Grasp of the Undying rune Grasp of the Undying if she is equipped with an Aftershock rune Aftershock rune page. Second Skin AP ratio per stack increased to 20% − 40% (based on Plasma stacks) AP from 10% − 30% (based on Plasma stacks) AP. Plasma detonation AP ratio increased to (3.75% per 100 AP) of target's missing health from (2.5% per 100 AP). Icathian Rain Range increased to 600 from 575. AP ratio increased to 40% AP from 20% AP. Void Seeker AP ratio reduced to 45% AP from 65% AP. Supercharge Charge duration reduced to 1.2 − 0.6 (based on bonus attack speed) from 1.5 − 0.75 (based on bonus attack speed). Minimum movement speed increased to 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75% from 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60%. Killer Instinct Radius around enemy champions increased to 525 from 500. NEW EFFECT: The shield is now granted on-cast. Still lingers for 3 seconds after dash ends. V8.5 - March 8th Hotfix Stats Base attack damage increased to 65 from 62.46. Icathian Rain Cooldown reduced to 8 / 7.5 / 7 / 6.5 / 6 seconds from 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6. Mana cost reduced to 45 from 55. Yes, it's because people learned how to play her. It's not because they massively buffed almost every part of her kit.
: Glacial Augment is a Ranged Only keystone.
: Let’s stop kidding ourselves: Shyvana needs a full scale update the most - and it’s not even close.
Volibear needs a ton of work as well. He's got all the same problems except, unlike Shyvana who was good for a season (season 4), Volibear was literally never good. That's why I think he should get it more than Shyvana. He has the same visuals issues, the same kit issues, he just sucks. If you're describing the experience from an outsider's perspective though, the kit that is by far the worst to play against and around would be Fiddlesticks, followed by Nocturne. Nocturne is just bland overall and feels unsatisfying while Fiddlesticks is an absolute nightmare to play against.
: As someone completely uninterested in Esports, i need help understanding the "houses"
It's just based on the new Battle Academy skins and the characters represented in them.
: if you ever doubt the extent of power creep in this game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA tl;dr for people who are too lazy to watch it, it's not powercreep to turn a 3 mana 5/1 in Hearthstone into a 3 mana 5/2 because that 3 mana 5/1 was so dogshit that even a buffed version of itself didn't see play. The game was overall not powercreeped from that card. Now just replace "dogshit 3 mana 5/1" with "dogshit bruiser with no depth, incredibly low skillfloor, and completely champion-invalidating counterplay."
Ironmad (EUNE)
: Buffs and Nerfs from patches 8.1 - 9.8
These numbers are super fucked up.
: LL stylish doesn't play alot of Zed because he is bored of the champion...
Stylish bored of Zed =/= Zed being boring lmao Stylish plays the same champion for hours a day almost every day. Of course he's going to want to try something new. Also the thread you're referencing is at least a year old.
: > [{quoted}](name=Small PP Player,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kzL1iZ4K,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-04-15T04:14:21.207+0000) > > Junglers see themselves as a baby sitter having to watch idiotic children. I have yet to meet a jungle main who doesn't think every single lane is the problem. Show me a laner that doesn't b**** and I'll show you a jungler who doesn't complain. It's league we're all mostly sick and tired of the game but still we carry on. It's in our blood to be rude AF to one another at this point.
> [{quoted}](name=GreatDerpression,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kzL1iZ4K,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-04-15T04:38:31.802+0000) > > Show me a laner that doesn't b**** and I'll show you a jungler who doesn't complain. It's league we're all mostly sick and tired of the game but still we carry on. It's in our blood to be rude AF to one another at this point. Jungler: Laners are toxic and stupid Nobody bats at eye Laner: I've honestly yet to see a jungler who doesn't act condescending and rude Jungler: YEAH WELL I JUST GUESS EVERYONE IS TO BLAME HERE
: Healing and Sustain Being so Easily Accessible is Unhealthy
It's funny, people keep screeching for defense tools to help them survive so Riot gives them to 'em, but in response Riot has to buff damage so make it reasonably possible to kill people. And then they screech for damage to be tuned down.
: Its your fault.
I like how junglers act like their laners are incredibly stupid and incapable meanwhile last 4 games in a row I've played were almost solely decided by a stupid decision made by one of the junglers, followed by them being the first to call for open mid.
GFREEMEN (NA)
: RIOT: How about YOU AGREE TO FIX YOUR CLIENT Instead of telling me to "I Agree" for Leave Buster
Yeah new client finds fascinating new ways to break every time. > [{quoted}](name=Basstaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kTmYE5Hv,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-04-14T06:03:03.194+0000) > > Am I the only person that has never had an issue with the client? Yes
Paroe (NA)
: So i had a piece by piece response all typed up... it got eaten, but i realized something. You hate tanks and... ... You hate protection. You also equate bruisers TO tanks despite them not being defensive champions in the slightest. Your item complaints in shields - **those are all fighter or bruiser items**. Expensive. Outside an actual tanks effective reach. Your support item complaints - there are 0 items with item CDR. I dont know where you pulled that out of... but you should put it away. ENCHANTER support itemization is some of the best sustain support items in the game, and theyre cheap by need; supports dont make a lot of gold. TANK support itemization though? Complete. Garbage. Hugely ineffective considering their budget and requires a laners income to make work properly... Knights vow is barely an item, and you dont get it for the carry damage reduction. You get it for the carry sustain. Locket of the iron solari is only ever gotten by utility supports like thresh and rakan nowadays. Ill finish off with your champion complaints here... Remember this because it is VERY true and you seem to have forgotten it: _A tank even is a tank behind_. Braum: Hes what a tank should be, a champion who protects allies via interception. He is not better than yasuo as you imply, and while he does shine in protect the marksman comps... In this meta where _damage is cheaper than defense_ a support tank is a backline tank forced to protect the carry. Tahm: You seem to think tahm kench is a walking zhonyas? Yes he can protect people, thats WHAT A TANK DOES. do you just want to want to right click everyone to death all the time?! Rakan: Hes not a defensive champion. Hes an enchanter. His job is to heal, shield, and CC. Soraka, Sona, Karma, and Lulu ALL do the same thing _BETTER_. ____________________________________________________________________ It seems as though youre in the camp of "i should be able to deal all the damage" and "this game needs less defenses so i can do more damage". You, sir, are in the wrong camp. Period. Damage in this game needs to be reduced so that the meta isnt stagnant. Marksmen in this game need to be reworked as a whole so that _the meta doesnt mean "who deals with marksman the best_". Assassins in the game need to be reworked so that theyre not hyper mobile. AD bruiser itemization needs to be toned WAY down, AP bruiser itemization needs some buffs on the AP front. AP itemization in general needs some flat AP buffs.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HE5QZwEr,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-11T05:24:27.531+0000) > > Ill finish off with your champion complaints here... Remember this because it is VERY true and you seem to have forgotten it: _A tank even is a tank behind_. And they can still set up with good cc even if they're 0/5. Malphite that's 0/5, 40 cs down? Still can land a game winning ultimate. Sej that got outjungled by Kha'Zix all game? Still can lock him down for the team. Tanks have a 1-2 item time to shine in terms of raw 1v1 potential but after that their capability to 1v1 anything should be limited for how much teamfight power they pack. Also, if they're good at the 1v1 then bruisers lose their place again. > Braum: Hes what a tank should be, a champion who protects allies via interception. He is not better than yasuo as you imply, and while he does shine in protect the marksman comps... In this meta where _damage is cheaper than defense_ a support tank is a backline tank forced to protect the carry. jfc. I've said it 1000x times but Braum is literally the best support in the game. He provides so much to his team. He's got great setup, phenomenal peel, he's extremely tanky, there's a reason he's the most picked support of all time in competitive. Yasuo shows up for a couple patches, probably because Riot broke crit items, and then falls off again. Yasuo MIGHT be a better champion in solo queue right now but Braum will always be a top 3 support. > Tahm: You seem to think tahm kench is a walking zhonyas? Yes he can protect people, thats WHAT A TANK DOES. do you just want to want to right click everyone to death all the time?! Tahm completely warps the game with his W. He's been destroyed one piece of his kit at a time, because the spell is so disgustingly powerful. We're now left with a champion with a 45% winrate because he just can't exist outside of pro play and it's fucking sad. I would love to nerf that ability into the ground if it means Riot would put more power back into the rest of his kit. > Rakan: Hes not a defensive champion. Hes an enchanter. >His job is to heal, shield, and CC. .... moving on. >Soraka, Sona, Karma, and Lulu ALL do the same thing _BETTER_. Sona, Soraka, Karma, and Lulu can't engage from a full screen away. > It seems as though youre in the camp of "i should be able to deal all the damage" and "this game needs less defenses so i can do more damage". You, sir, are in the wrong camp. Period. Fuck I'd rather be in a camp with this guy than some goon who thinks Soraka, Sona, Karma, and Lulu are better champions than Rakan. You literally don't know the role you main and think because you can't utilize it it's weak. > Damage in this game needs to be reduced so that the meta isnt stagnant. Do you have proof damage is stagnating this game? Because the most stagnant this game got was season 7, where almost no toplaners and jgs were viable, and they all ran Gargoyle/Locket, 3 mids were viable (Orianna, Malzahar, Galio), adc was reduced to late-game scaling crit champs, and bot lane was only enchanters. > Marksmen in this game need to be reworked as a whole so that _the meta doesnt mean "who deals with marksman the best_". That's going to happen EVERY SINGLE TIME there is a role where you're looking for late-game dps. Do you think that you can nerf or rework them into not being the center of games? > Assassins in the game need to be reworked so that theyre not hyper mobile. Kk let's just remove fundamental parts of gameplay because you don't like being punished for getting caught out. > AD bruiser itemization needs to be toned WAY down, AP bruiser itemization needs some buffs on the AP front. AP bruiser itemization doesn't exist and Riot is working on that. > AP itemization in general needs some flat AP buffs. Maybe some buffs to DRing since Cpot is bar none the best starting item but would be nice but why would you just tack on flat AP when you have a number of champions that absolutely destroy the game with their damage? WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT DAMAGE CREEP AND THEN BUFFING THE HIGHEST AOE CLASS IN THE GAME??? and I get it, it's tiring to see the same champions over and over again, especially when class is geared to only punish mistakes you make. But you really have to see the double standards. I'm sure if I went in and complained about tanks you'd tell me that I just need to play better.
: > [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYXrZBfJ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-04-10T11:20:20.252+0000) > > Ummm no basically all of those champions are only played in one role like where are you getting this idea from if yas was good in 3 roles he would have a much higher playrate in those roles but he doesn't he is only played mid. > > Like what did you lose to a yas adc that just snowed I can play gnar adc too and snowball and win. All those champions are not good in there off roles vayne top sucks it doesn't help your team and can be easily ganked, yas actually loses a lot of top lane match ups Vayne bot/top Riven top/mid/jungle Yasuo bot/mid/top Zed top/mid Lux mid/sup Yet Ezreal dares to be at a 48% winrate bot and a 47% winrate mid and got his ap ratios gutted because “silly ad, you can’t leave your role” except Vayne for some fucking reason. Morgana is another example of this. Suddenly she is PLAYABLE mid. Not even good. PLAYABLE. And riot gutted her mid viability. I don’t see riven’s Jungle viability being taken away.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TYXrZBfJ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-04-10T11:54:50.817+0000) > > Vayne bot/top > Riven top/mid/jungle > Yasuo bot/mid/top > Zed top/mid > Lux mid/sup > > Yet Ezreal dares to be at a 48% winrate bot and a 47% winrate mid and got his ap ratios gutted because “silly ad, you can’t leave your role” except Vayne for some fucking reason. > > Morgana is another example of this. Suddenly she is PLAYABLE mid. Not even good. PLAYABLE. And riot gutted her mid viability. > I don’t see riven’s Jungle viability being taken away. He wasn't being played mid he was going bot lane and had way too much safety and damage with the AP build. That's why the build got nerfed. It had NOTHING to do with him going mid and the changes didn't even hurt traditional mid builds for him
: Oh ppl like to see the most picked midlaner in the game that also ha 53% winrate nerfed So dumb amirite
> [{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eh2dAuEN,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-10T02:01:47.127+0000) > > Oh ppl like to see the most picked midlaner in the game that also ha 53% winrate nerfed > > So dumb amirite it's boards Zed could have a 48% winrate with a 2% winrate and they'd cry he's oppressive.
Moody P (NA)
: Doesn't this push her further out of mid lane if her scaling damage and defense are both taken down so hard Is this reasonable?
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T9AOlwEF,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-04-09T22:23:10.583+0000) > > Doesn't this push her further out of mid lane if her scaling damage and defense are both taken down so hard > > Is this reasonable? Honestly I don't really know. I know that knocking 90 damage off a champion's damage at 600 AP is pretty big but you don't pick Morg mid for her utility so I feel like it's not changing anything significant about her. That black shield change is huge though. With her getting MS for running at you though I'm assuming they wanted to create some level of counterplay and ability to remove her shield. Both of them together + waveclear nerfs last patch probably aren't reasonable but I don't know a single midlaner that likes playing vs. Morg.
: Is balance team aware that Morgana is a mage and she's supposed to build AP?
I would assume they are aware she's supposed to but AP, or they wouldn't hit her AP ratios.
Netorare (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-08T17:56:19.158+0000) > > We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem. > > The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her. U can easily dodge her Q if ur not a bonobo but whateve man, mages are broken. She clears quickly yes, yes she is a mage like any other... Can y'all stop forgetting that her Q scales with distance and fucking flash TOWARDS her and get a fucking free kill. Zoe ain't as safe as Vel'koz and Xerath because of her R that puts her in PLACE which is obvious...
> [{quoted}](name=ZoWeeLoli,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2019-04-09T03:29:59.668+0000) > > U can easily dodge her Q if ur not a bonobo but whateve man, mages are broken. > She clears quickly yes, yes she is a mage like any other... > Can y'all stop forgetting that her Q scales with distance and fucking flash TOWARDS her and get a fucking free kill. > Zoe ain't as safe as Vel'koz and Xerath because of her R that puts her in PLACE which is obvious... 1. Dodging one Q is easy. It's the old Nidalee argument if that one kills you and she invests very little into netting the skillshot, it's a frustrating, low counterplay experience. 2. She literally clears casters with a single spell 4 levels before the vast majority of mages can. Don't pretend it's normal for mages to clear as safely as she does. 3. Vel'Koz and Xerath also don't have the ability to steal summoners. They also don't have the same pick range as her. Just because she isn't as far back doesn't mean she's not a safe pick, nor does it mean that she's not a problem right now.
: Lmfao literally every change to her W was a Buff...... Buff 1) Move speed at level 1 increased from 10% to 20% Buff 2) Damage per orb increased Buff 3) Orbs prioritize champions.... Nerfs? The nerfs have been elsewhere.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2019-04-09T01:26:37.742+0000) > > Lmfao literally every change to her W was a Buff...... > > Buff 1) Move speed at level 1 increased from 10% to 20% > Buff 2) Damage per orb increased > Buff 3) Orbs prioritize champions.... > > Nerfs? The nerfs have been elsewhere. Upon release, yes every change to her W WAS a buff. 8.4 Spell Thief Minions can no longer drop shards for Teleport Teleport. Bonus movement speed increased to 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% from 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70%. AP ratio increased to 60% AP from 40% AP. 8.5 Spell Thief Bubble acquisition range increased to 550 from 525. Base damage increased to 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 from 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250. AP ratio increased to 75% AP from 60% AP. And then people realized it was pretty stupid with Electrocute so they nerfed it repeatedly. 8.13 Spell Thief AP ratio reduced to 65% AP from 75% AP. Bonus movement speed duration reduced to 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3 seconds from 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4. 8.14 Spell Thief Total base damage reduced to 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 / 195 from 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255. AP ratio reduced to 55% AP from 65% AP. 8.16 Spell Thief AP ratio reduced to 40% AP from 55% AP. And then there's the other changes where they took items like Gunblade and Teleport out of her grab bag. Don't try tell me half the story.
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-08T17:56:19.158+0000) > > We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem. > > The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her. The random component is still a pretty big problem, especially with summoner spells. It would be possibly be okay if we could see what the bubbles are going to drop, so we can play around it. Her Q gives her a lot of safety, but certain summoner spells can completely remove your ability to trade with or kill her, or certain combinations can allow her to basically run you down if you're playing a 100% skill shot reliant champion (i.e. she's holding a Ghost and then an Exhaust drops).
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2019-04-08T23:16:52.852+0000) > > The random component is still a pretty big problem, especially with summoner spells. It would be possibly be okay if we could see what the bubbles are going to drop, so we can play around it. > > Her Q gives her a lot of safety, but certain summoner spells can completely remove your ability to trade with or kill her, or certain combinations can allow her to basically run you down if you're playing a 100% skill shot reliant champion (i.e. she's holding a Ghost and then an Exhaust drops). The random component is frustrating. But if her only problem was she was frustrating, she wouldn't be an LCS pick. LCS picks are LCS picks because they're reliable. Use your head.
Saezio (EUNE)
: Care to explain this [Zed is S+ tier in 2 roles in M+ Elo](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/master/plus/tierlist/)
> [{quoted}](name=Saezio,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g4m2nmQm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-08T20:34:16.690+0000) > > Care to explain this [Zed is S+ tier in 2 roles in M+ Elo](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/master/plus/tierlist/) First, that's lolalytics, which overinflates winrates. There was a huge discussion on this. Second, I did say that Zed is likely overtuned (accounting for the high winrate) BUT he feels bad to play as. There's a huge difference, and although he is seeing pro play right now it's to little success, which confirms high elo players' bias against the champion. Even if he's strong right now, I have little frustration with the champion for that reason. His kit does not have a lot of strength built into it so I don't mind him being super strong in terms of damage, nor do I mind him being a meta pick. I'm simply just offering a perspective on how higher tier players view the champion and why they don't feel that he's great, even if he's winning a ton of games.
Rioter Comments
FSRER (EUNE)
: Nerfed? I still ignite her, barriers it and ignites me back, where is the balancing in that? It could have been balanced (right now isn't) if the spells were only at 40% scaling up with ap (up to about 90%) of their original power. Her q on the other hand is a skillshot, which actually needs a lot of practice to get it right and we have other champions with point and click abilities doing more dmg with less items (rengar can delete a adc with a 2900 gold item ({{item:3147}}) with no counterplay while at least zoe has her only (almost) damaging abilities locked behind experience on playing the champion.
> [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-04-08T18:29:01.382+0000) > > Nerfed? I still ignite her, barriers it and ignites me back, where is the balancing in that? > It could have been balanced (right now isn't) if the spells were only at 40% scaling up with ap (up to about 90%) of their original power. > Her q on the other hand is a skillshot, which actually needs a lot of practice to get it right and we have other champions with point and click abilities doing more dmg with less items (rengar can delete a adc with a 2900 gold item ({{item:3147}}) with no counterplay while at least zoe has her only (almost) damaging abilities locked behind experience on playing the champion. You're paying zero attention to the risk/reward. Yes, if she gets a lot of summoners, in a lategame teamfight she does a lot of damage. But you're not factoring in a number of things. 1. How she has to step up to get the orbs. 2. You see what the orbs are and what summoner spell she has in her inventory 3. she has a set range with which she can use them. So there are risks to it, and it's fair to reward her greatly with it. But Q is another story entirely. Zoe's Q is low risk for very high reward, it autoshoves waves until she gets to the point she can one-shot you, and the range on it is huge. Yes her W is targeted damage but Zoe is picked in LCS as the premier poke champion. It's not because of her W because that's not a poke tool in the slightest. I wrote a 3 page essay on Zoe's problems. Would you like me to upload it and link it?
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Rock MD

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