Ghi (NA)
: [SERIOUS] How do I approach this? Asking well-experienced or high-elo players [D5+]
In the situation you described, the best course of action would be to go "full Tryndamere" and split push, while hoping your team can slow the enemy push. Master Yi is an assassin who excels in 1v1 duels. While split pushing, you force the enemy team to send two people to stop you or they lose inhibitor. This is the true power behind Yi (and Tryndamere). If the enemy team stop pushing, you should join with your team or hide near the lane you were pushing and wait until you know what the enemy team is doing. Yi is squishy when focused, which means starting teamfight by flanking is a death sentence and thus not recommended in plat+. That is unless you are super fed and can take at least one enemy carry before you die. Teamfighting as Master Yi requires champion knowledge and knowing your own limits. This is due the nature of Yi's ability kit, which lacks instant one shot ability to take down enemy carry. Like all assassin champions, Master Yi has selfish playstyle. You don't spend time to get your teammates fed, you want to snowball as hard as possible. Yi has the ability to achieve "hyper carry" status with core items. Your game plan is to get gold and items as fast as possible.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZyiMaLfZ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-30T11:26:26.040+0000) > > Not necessary buffed, however a change would be welcome. > > Mostly people, who write at forums, ask for a change for the better. We, the players, are masters at recognizing strong aspects of a champion. Sometimes this aspect is intentional and sometimes it is over performing. The players are passionate about their favorite champions and wishes to see their champion / game in a healthier state. Thus, it is only natural they talk about the problems and ask for a change. It comes out as a vocal outcry because the issues have been talked for a long time. Also since in the end the game designers have the final say. > > In Sona’s case her most powerful aspect is damage and because of it everything else in her kit feels weak. This leads to the bad play experience and creates frustration to some players. I’m fully aware that there are players who enjoys Sona being a secondary AP carry and are happy to play her as one. At the same time, there are players who wants Sona to have deeper gameplay than damage. every single change i have seen for Sona is literally either "buff her numbers to be insane!" or "change this into a completely different champion" there are extremely few that aren't that. I am actually sick of it, as a Sona main myself. She could use small tweaks here and there but then again the entire champion roster could use tweaks and i rather have actual decent support items that i can use effectively rather than trying to build the same items over and over and over and over and over regardless of who i am playing as a support... unless you are Brand and company which just build like a midlaner because why not
Playerbase is frustrated because they don’t receive feedback from the game designers about the topic. This frustration leads to the vocal outcry that we see on these forums. The level of the outcry depends on how long the issue been around. Your answer to OP’s question ”Sona, how you would improve her” is that you don’t have problems with Sona particularly, however the support items are stale. And to fix this, is to change current support items and possibly add new ones to create diversity between them. This comment came a long way from your original one. I would like to hear your ideas how to change current support items and what direction should they go.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZyiMaLfZ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-03-30T07:06:27.551+0000) > > Could you please elaborate? > > I’m interested in knowing what makes people dislike Sona discussion threads. > > Clearly there are players who play Sona and have bad gaming experience with her. i have had bad gameplay experiences with champions that everyone says they are OP as fuck... does that mean they need to be buffed?
Not necessary buffed, however a change would be welcome. Mostly people, who write at forums, ask for a change for the better. We, the players, are masters at recognizing strong aspects of a champion. Sometimes this aspect is intentional and sometimes it is over performing. The players are passionate about their favorite champions and wishes to see their champion / game in a healthier state. Thus, it is only natural they talk about the problems and ask for a change. It comes out as a vocal outcry because the issues have been talked for a long time. Also since in the end the game designers have the final say. In Sona’s case her most powerful aspect is damage and because of it everything else in her kit feels weak. This leads to the bad play experience and creates frustration to some players. I’m fully aware that there are players who enjoys Sona being a secondary AP carry and are happy to play her as one. At the same time, there are players who wants Sona to have deeper gameplay than damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > A role that match to the question was the support. Supports are the utility based role that shouldn’t focus on dealing tons of damage. > All supports no exception (minus janna) have the ability to take down a target sitting at 30% hp from early game to mid game making a support doing no damage cannot work unless you overload it with a fcking ton of utililty even kits like ivern and bard still have damage in their kit, because a champion without damage can simply not work > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > Sona’s current complications: > > * Sona has only one viable playstyle which is known as “shotgun Sona”. The term means she builds offensive AP items and plays like a mage, shooting high damage spells from a range. That’s not support playstyle pattern. > that's because of the numbers on her kit forcing her to buy AP > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > * “Shotgun Sona” playstyle isn’t fun for the enemy players and not always for the player himself. Being behind often creates bad gaming experience. > every single sona player i personally know has fun only by bursting people > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > Enemies can’t prevent the damage happening. hell yeah they can, else she would have been top pick in high elo since a long time the undodgeable part of her damage are so low that doran blade sustain is enough to sustain it the other part is at 550 range leaving you the ability to extend trades against sona with her 325 base ms+ inability to fight because she doesn't have something like lulu's passive or nami's damage in early game > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > > * Rest of her kit abilities are counted towards the best-case scenario, which is enhancing all her teammates. +1 > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > What this design tries to achieve: > > * Establish more decision making on her abilities. your rework failed to do this, the powerchord Q and W does THE EXACT SAME THING but reversed, > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > * Restore the identity of an enhancer support. this is already what she does, sona does nothing but enhance people, and it's boring af the "shotgun" sona only happens if you play her mid, if you go support you buy support items and spam Q+W+E in late game with low cd winning the teamfight for you team > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > * Create truly unique playstyle which describes Sona. unique playstyle doesn't mean shit if your kit is cornered around something that is just bad, just like malzahar's kit being unique but revolves around spaceaids and piece of shit minions > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > * Return aurae back to her kit hell no, just no. i'm tired of Auras, and everytime riot tries to make Sona working more around auras (4.13, 6.16) making her worse and worse in high elo > [{quoted}](name=Rydakora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBifq2Fk,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-27T17:49:31.568+0000) > > > * Low skill floor high skill ceiling. > your rework doesn't fixe sona in any way, it doesn't increase her skill ceiling, it doesn't make her funnier to play. the only thing that made me excited by reading your rework is the ult, everything else is what she is now but out-of-combat WHICH IS WAY WORSE, but also loses her laning phase presence as she can't poke anymore. invisible power is still invisible, low decision spells are still low decision spells i honestly don't have a single clue on how this is going to fixe Sona
Sorry for late answer, I’m not active forum user. I believe I failed to sell the idea of buffing allies or weaken enemies with the power chord attack. As the version in the design allows her to cast it twice after using an ability. This way she has more options to do in the laning phase. Sona can also choose the ability to level depending on her lane partner and the enemies she is facing, which increases skill decision. For example: player might want to level up E to give attack speed buff and movement speed to make quick trades, while throwing movement speed slow on the enemy target. Another good example is that players are facing poke setup, where maxing out W will be critical to survive the lane. As you can reduce the incoming damage and give a strong shield (stronger than the live version). I designed the power chord buffs / debuffs to provide both attack and defensive choices, to prevent linear one ability path only. I’m glad you liked the ultimate change, I noticed you suggested same in your rework idea.
: Sona: How would you improve her?
Great rework idea. I recently made my own version Sona where I tuned her more to an enhancer who buffs allies or weakens enemies with the power chord attack. I also attempted to make aurae to work without being invisible power. You can read it from [here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EBifq2Fk-sona-revisioned).
: how would i improve her? by deleting every single thread that appears saying how terrible she currently is
Could you please elaborate? I’m interested in knowing what makes people dislike Sona discussion threads. Clearly there are players who play Sona and have bad gaming experience with her.
zero356 (NA)
: Interesting, but I doubt it will fly. "Shotgun Sona" can go Damage Sona cannot You cite her lore, but read the last lines again "In secret, she discovered a potent and deadly use for her etwahl, using its vibrations to slice objects from a distance. She honed this discipline in private, mastering her gift. When she felt prepared, she went to the only place which could offer her a fitting recital: the League of Legends." Mana regen for allies is cool, but has been systematically eliminated. % out of combat heal (basically a free Wormogs) is probably too much. Upvoting anyway for exposure
That is the only part of her lore, where it feels the damage was forced on her. As it appears to be only explanation why her abilities deal damage. Also, in whole Sona lacks strong reason why she joined League. Unless her sole reason is to kill everyone… it makes so much sense now! Sona joined League to murder all the people who didn’t adopt her. She is humanoid form for destruction and malice. No wonder her playstyle is high tuned for damage. Out of combat regeneration can be balanced with numbers and there already exists strong out of combat regen, the Ocean drake buff.
: Part of Sona's appeal to some of us guys is that she deals damage, i've been playing her as a very aggressive lane dominator since season 2 and that is part of the charm for me, the fact that I can control the lane while healing and if worst comes to worst as a solo player then I can basically play Sona as a 2nd APC who melts towers if my ADC is lacking Ever since the (technically 2nd rework) of Sona where her auras were changed from a static statboost to small effects the Sona playerbase had voiced their opinion on what they wanted to stay the same about Sona, and Fearless knew her damage was one of those things I for one would not be happy that the champion I had been playing for so long was warped into being the complete opposite and makes my playstyle with her completely invalid
I understand that Sona’s damage from Q – Hymn of Valor is the defining character of her gameplay currently. At the same time, it feels it’s the limiting factor for her other abilities. Players wanted to keep the damage as it is the only thing that makes you feel you are doing something with the champion. Dealing damage isn’t unique as you can do it better with other champions. I might be dreaming too big for Sona changes at this point. Her playstyle has been same for so long and it feels bad to see the potential of such a great fantasy theme to not be pushed to the fullest.
Rewt (NA)
: How much utility can you give to a champion who deals no damage? Literally 0 damage. Not even basic attacks. The answer is not much. It may seem like a good idea on paper but think about it this way. Supports are already thought of as CC bots. We dont really use them for damage unless you are a degenerate Zyra player or play some wacky shit like Vel Koz Support. Most supports do basically no damage. Lets look at it this way. Thresh hook does damage, but if we made it do 0 damage but have a longer CC the ability would actually be significantly stronger. While it has a lack of damage, the enemy would be defenseless for even longer. The concept of removing all forms of damage on a champ to just give them monster Utility has the adverse effect of not really changing anything about a support but just making them overkill. Now Sona is a weird one here because she is often built heavy AP and used as a slightly weaker mage. but she is an exception to the rule. As a design concept removing damage to make a support have stronger CC isnt actually a tradeoff. Its actually a benefit. The Support can no longer jew kills, and any form of CC they had is now significantly stronger. imagine removing all damage off of morgana. The snare would be longer and the black shield would be bigger. She would be even more cancer than she already is. TLDR: Sounds good on paper but if thought of in the way that a meta is shaped around supports you realize that overloading a support with Utility in exchange for their damage isnt a trade off. Its actually just a straight benefit in 90% of situations. Also this kills off one of the most fun off meta mid laners in the game.
Exactly! As you said, monster utility on most champions would bust them out of their frame. Currently the supports that are favored are the ones who can do both, good amount of damage and strong CC to boot. A good example is Lulu. She does both damage and CC while not sacrificing much in the trade off. In fact, she does it so well she can be picked as a viable top and mid. Is this how supports are meant to be played in League? Are supports meant to be backup damage to finish off enemies while having amazing CC? What should be champion’s weakness? Does it come with the role or does the champion abilities create weaknesses? If there is no weakness in champion’s kit, how do you play against one? It is interesting how you too noticed Sona standing out from the support roster. She does a bit of everything, yet doesn’t fully commit to anything. Thus, I chose Sona to explore the other side of damage spectrum. We currently can’t say for sure how much enhancer utility you can pack in one champion. I’m not talking about CC, I’m talking about enhancing. Like in the CSI “Enhance, Enhance, Enhance!” Enhancing, in League (and to my understanding), means to temporarily increase stats on a champion. And that what I’m trying to do with this design. Making Sona a strong enhancer.
Rioter Comments
: An Exhaustive list of Sona's problems and how Riot can potentially fixe them
Good to see that Sona isn’t forgotten and can still create conversations about her kit. Your post is similar to mine, which got deleted since I posted it to the wrong forum "Concepts & Creations" few weeks back. I guess we all want to see the burst Sona to go away and give her unique role. My post discussed mostly the same problems as you listed. I also have quite good rework idea for her kit and could use feedback about it. I'll post my rework idea again to the Gameplay once I get home from work, if you would like to read it.
Khadaver (NA)
: Program Cassiopeia Sketch
Wouldn't Cassiopeia fall into Battlecast skin line, would she? I could totally see Viktor creating Battlecast Cassiopeia. The theme would fit her better. But that's just my opinion. Your concept and sketch looks quite solid.
Asmerath (NA)
: Character concept (insert name here)
I too enjoyed playing Mina in Dawngate. Her playstyle was truly unique and really brought support rule to a whole new level. The tag mechanic with an ally was fun to play which made really interesting item build paths and strategies to go with it. If a champion with similar playstyle would ever be implemented in LoL, I would main it in a heartbeat. I believe few years back Riot did experimented with such idea but was put on hold for some reason (sorry can't really remember so well all the details, it was red post though). Mina's playstyle would definitely be something that LoL could use. Currently LoL needs to nail down role indenties. Too many champions are damage focused over pure utility/protection. Riot said they are going to take a closer look on the issue and planning to make tanks more about damage soaking over passive AoE damage. I can only hope they touch supports in same way and make more utility based supports over damage. Specially enhancer type supports. Dawngate inspired us all which filled our hearts with something unique, with something that even LoL can't... match? I'm sad that Dawngate was closed to never return again, but I'm happy I was part of it.
Fearless (NA)
: Let's talk about Sona (for all)
In the present day supports have become the backbone of the team. In this post, I will share my ideas briefly in three sections. The sections are: Auras, Passive and Abilities. A good support is able to carry a whole team and make the flashiest play; sadly not every support is able to do that. Sona is one of them. To bring Sona up to modern standards of support, she needs mechanics from the latest champions. - **Sona's auras** should stack like Jinx's Q, longer she stays in one aura more benefits she and her allies gain. To speed up the stat gain, she can tap the ability again to increase stacks for herself and allies. Moving outside of aura's range would kickoff the stack decrease. This would punish multiple aura spamming, increase more interaction with the abilities and enforce Sona to be near teammates, to be in full potential. Choosing the right aura for right situation brings more depth to her play. - Just like having the right aura for the right fight, so should be her **passive**. In order to be a true support, Sona needs unique utility. Currently her W and E only give utility, which isn't enough to stand out. Lets look at the **passive procs** first. Her Q should reduce the damage output of enemy hit by 20%. Her W passive proc to shred % of bonus armor enemy have. E to slow movement and attack speed for the duration. These changes would give each ability individual utility and really increase the skill expression Sona lacks. - In the light of the fact that she doesn't stand out much in skill play, Sona require radical abilities. As I proposed earlier for passive proc effects to be unique, they should also reflect in the **abilities**. In this section I will introduce few ideas to ponder and reflect. The core idea is to turn static stats into dynamic, which makes them easier to tune. | Hymn of Valor (**Q**) **passive aura:** Increases % of allies AD and AP ratios. **active:** Currently the activation feels fine as it is now. Some people said a skill shot or cone would be cool, and I agree. It would be worth of testing. | Aria of Perseverance (**W**) **passive aura:** Health regeneration per 5 / % increase self healing effects. **active:** Armor increase and healing over time (HoT) for X second. Prioritizes two lowest health allies without the effect, right after Sona. She should help more than one ally at the time, when she is at full health. Turning direct heal into HoT allows it hit multiple targets in a team fight and removes the heal bot play. | Song of Celerity (**E**) **passive aura:** % Movement speed. **active:** Increases attack speed for X seconds. Adding attack speed top of movement speed makes it more interesting and more fitting. | Crescendo (**R**) **active:** No change for the present one, but on top of that could apply extra utility. For example: The aura she currently have active decides what effect enemies have after the ultimate fades. - In the final analysis Sona needs better execution for her kit. The biggest reason to pick Sona is her AoE stun ultimate; everything else in her kit isn't strong / unique enough to challenge other supports. Hopefully, we can see and hear a new Sona in the field of justice.

Rydakora

Level 10 (NA)
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