: Nidalee has both a lot of upsides and downsides in her current form. These are what I immediately think of, but of course I am sure there are many things in both categories that I have missed. Despite having a lot of PROS, there are a lot of CONS. I believe the current Nidalee to be feast or famine and toxic gameplay similar to how original Rengar was, but with a skill shot gimmick to land before bursting. PROS: * Spear moving slower than original speed allows for more counterplay/dodge-ability. * No longer moving backward for more damage after spear is thrown. * Traps are improved; They used to be slightly visible, but lasted a lot longer, had no health bar, and did more damage. They granted a lot farther vision and were pretty busted. You have real counter play against the current traps with vision control and the health bar. * The current state of Items (Rod of Ages, Athenes, Lich Bane, Ludens, Trinity Force, BOTRK, etc) gives the player a lot of flexibility on how they want to play Nidalee. * Nidalee combos are still present and are a lot of fun. * Animation Canceling still being present in her kit. * Pounce cooldown lowering on kill is fun and a rewarding skill for wave manipulation and jungle clear. * Auto attack reset being removed by switching forms was a bit unfair in melee vs ranged. CONS: * Hunt Passive on Jungle camps makes Lane Nidalee impossible to be viable without breaking Jungle Nidalee. * Closing the gap on a target with the Hunt requires no skill or pathing strategy * Missing Health Heal instead of a flat Heal makes laning Nidalee difficult. (Not to say heavy amounts of sustain in a kit is good, but making an ability useless isn’t good either). * Too much damage is loaded into Cougar Q versus targets with “Hunt mark”. It needs to be distributed around her kit. * Cougars are faster than people, Nidalee no longer gaining movement speed in cougar feels wrong thematically and the Hunt gives too much movement speed currently. * Current spear hitbox has been nerfed and does not accurately represent the model of the spear flying through the air. This is a problem with other champions such as Morgana’s Q or Lux’s R. Riot has fixed Blitzcrank Q as of recent. * The rework reallocated too much damage from Nidalee’s Spear (Q1) into her Cougar auto reset (Q2) and also made it an execute. Doing so resulted in damage being a bit too high from the cougar Q. This resulted in Q1 not feeling as satisfying landing it from long ranges, while Q2 seems much too strong and at times overkilling opponents. Killing enemy carries at 60% hp with simply Q2 and Hunt passive is much too strong. It’s nonsensical and not fair in terms of counterplay. * Nidalee's movement speed is too loaded into the hunt, she is incredibly slow in comparison to the rest of the champion roster for a cat. But when you have the hunt on somebody you cannot be outrun unless it is a Talon hopping over wall after wall.
> [{quoted}](name=Mid Nidalee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-05-13T01:43:01.649+0000) > > Nidalee has both a lot of upsides and downsides in her current form. These are what I immediately think of, but of course I am sure there are many things in both categories that I have missed. Despite having a lot of PROS, there are a lot of CONS. I believe the current Nidalee to be feast or famine and toxic gameplay similar to how original Rengar was, but with a skill shot gimmick to land before bursting. > > PROS: > > * Spear moving slower than original speed allows for more counterplay/dodge-ability. > > * No longer moving backward for more damage after spear is thrown. > > * Traps are improved; They used to be slightly visible, but lasted a lot longer, had no health bar, and did more damage. They granted a lot farther vision and were pretty busted. You have real counter play against the current traps with vision control and the health bar. > > * The current state of Items (Rod of Ages, Athenes, Lich Bane, Ludens, Trinity Force, BOTRK, etc) gives the player a lot of flexibility on how they want to play Nidalee. > > * Nidalee combos are still present and are a lot of fun. > > * Animation Canceling still being present in her kit. > > * Pounce cooldown lowering on kill is fun and a rewarding skill for wave manipulation and jungle clear. > > * Auto attack reset being removed by switching forms was a bit unfair in melee vs ranged. > > > CONS: > > * Hunt Passive on Jungle camps makes Lane Nidalee impossible to be viable without breaking Jungle Nidalee. > > * Closing the gap on a target with the Hunt requires no skill or pathing strategy > > * Missing Health Heal instead of a flat Heal makes laning Nidalee difficult. (Not to say heavy amounts of sustain in a kit is good, but making an ability useless isn’t good either). > > * Too much damage is loaded into Cougar Q versus targets with “Hunt mark”. It needs to be distributed around her kit. > > * Cougars are faster than people, Nidalee no longer gaining movement speed in cougar feels wrong thematically and the Hunt gives too much movement speed currently. > > * Current spear hitbox has been nerfed and does not accurately represent the model of the spear flying through the air. This is a problem with other champions such as Morgana’s Q or Lux’s R. Riot has fixed Blitzcrank Q as of recent. > > * The rework reallocated too much damage from Nidalee’s Spear (Q1) into her Cougar auto reset (Q2) and also made it an execute. Doing so resulted in damage being a bit too high from the cougar Q. This resulted in Q1 not feeling as satisfying landing it from long ranges, while Q2 seems much too strong and at times overkilling opponents. Killing enemy carries at 60% hp with simply Q2 and Hunt passive is much too strong. It’s nonsensical and not fair in terms of counterplay. > > * Nidalee's movement speed is too loaded into the hunt, she is incredibly slow in comparison to the rest of the champion roster for a cat. But when you have the hunt on somebody you cannot be outrun unless it is a Talon hopping over wall after wall. Pros * Spear being slower isn't a pro and Spear speed is exactly the same as it was pre-rework. the hit box is 1/3 the size it used to be. I personally think it should be a tad bigger and faster than it currently is. It's a single target damage ability not a massive CC ability which are the only abilities with projectile speeds this slow save for Javelin Toss but hey Morgana still has her massive ass hitbox and scaling on dark binding so why they hell did Javelin toss get hit in the size and damage department so hard? * moving backward for more damage ruined the idea of the hunt mechanic and going in with cougar and made poke Nidalee more desireable so this was definitely a good change * Traps are worse... far worse. The don't do damage and you can't use them for zoning anymore. They're glorified hunt markers that are almost only useful in the jungle. These used to be terrifying to step on as any player on the enemy team because they came with respectable damage and strong debuffs that would make tanks and squishies weep. Now it's just a red dot for the cat to chase * The current state of Items doesn't offer nearly as much flexibility as it should for a champion like Nidalee. We're absolutely reliant on runic echoes/ludens to do any kind of burst that other champions get naturally from their kits. * Auto attack reset being removed by switching forms was a bit unfair in melee vs ranged. Not a pro but agreed especially since out base attackspeed and our heal got hit as well. Primal surge heal got cut in half and was reliant on being low hp to get the full benefits and the cooldown was increased. This is a champion you never want to be low hp on and makes absolutely no sense. CONS: * I don't think Hunt passive makes it impossible to balance Jungle and Lane Nidalee together but I think they should be changed. Split hunt between two effects on her abilities. A damage effect and a utility effect. reserve the damage effects fro champions and the utility effects for everything else. Bring back attack resets on pounce and aspect of the cougar. * Closing the gap on a target with the Hunt actually does require a lot of skill. Enemies don't just let you mark them with hunt. What doesn't require skill is kha zix and Rengar jumping on you from out of no where and deleting you... There is a massive difference. * Missing Health Heal instead of a flat Heal makes laning Nidalee difficult and thios type of heal makes no sense on a champion like Nidalee who wants to stay as healthy as possible. * I don't entirely agree here on Too much damage is loaded into Cougar Q versus targets with “Hunt mark”. Takedown damage pre-rework was on average much higher since it just scaled up to 300% I think it should be less reliant on hunt for it's max damage and that hunt should offer some other effects towards boosting it's damage like penetration while making takedown a physical damage ability again and increasing it's old AD ratio back to where it used to be. * Cougars are faster than people, true and I definitely agree she should get movespeed in cougar but she does no get enough speed for what she's expected to do. She should be on par with WW and Hecarim when it comes to chasing people down but instead anyone with a slow can kite her to death and pretty much anyone with a movespeed boost can out run her or run her down. Nothing is more ridiculous than being run down by someone like Jax, Pantheon, Yi, or Nasus because they are innately faster and have some kind of sticking power while you are seemingly at a safe range. * Current spear hitbox has been nerfed and does not accurately represent the model of the spear flying through the air. This is a problem with other champions such as Morgana’s Q or Lux’s R. Riot has fixed Blitzcrank Q as of recent. * Javelin Toss damage is fine if it was more reliable meaning we could hit it more often without relying on the cover of darkness and the element of surprise. A lot of our engages require us to use stealth and completely fall apart without the element of surprise because it's so damn easy to dodge the slow moving needle size skillshot * Anyone with a slow or movespeed boost can outrun Nidalee especially since runic echoes lost it's movespeed buff, celerity go gutted, and boot enchantments were removed. Nidalee has average base movespeed and the hunt just makes it a little above average but the range at which you get the benefits of hunt are too damn short so one little slow and you no longer have your hunt movespeed boost. Give her back 10 bonus movespeed in cougar and reduce the hunt movepseed boost but increase the range and have the amount it gives increase based on how close to the target she is. You'll still be able to kite her but once you've given her too much ground only hard CC will shake her.
: why complain now about how nidalee should be a laner, with reference "i am a lane nida main" when he hasn't played his champ for 3 years ?
> [{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=0000000a00000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T11:05:40.611+0000) > > why complain now about how nidalee should be a laner, with reference "i am a lane nida main" when he hasn't played his champ for 3 years ? What are you going on about? Why complain about something that is virtually unplayable that used to be playable? Hell I still occasionally try to pull out top lane Nidalee but it's so hit or miss that I just keep her to the jungle. It's not that we don't want to lane with her but we want to win so no shit some of us aren't going to lane her.
: yo shes been a jungler for 3 years already, if not more
> [{quoted}](name=MTFN Azor ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=0000000a,timestamp=2019-05-14T20:53:32.658+0000) > > yo shes been a jungler for 3 years already, if not more She was a laner for like what 7 years? your point?
: Nidalee Players Want Riot To Step Up And Fix The Mess Riot Created.
I personally wish Riot had doubled down on Nidalee's versatility instead of shoe horning her into one role and build path. I liked AD Nidalee and AP Nidalee as well as taking her jungle, top, and mid but I'm stuck with ap jungle Nidalee which honestly when not snowballed ahead doesn't compete with most of the champion pool with similar or comparable kits
: To be honest, thematically Nidalee fits as a jungle champion way more than as a mid laner, but that is just my opinion.
> [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-12T23:37:57.584+0000) > > To be honest, thematically Nidalee fits as a jungle champion way more than as a mid laner, but that is just my opinion. and thematically shit fits more as an AD champion too... > [{quoted}](name=Bruiser Nid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-12T23:15:09.709+0000) > > Actually no, she isn't tier 2. She is not viable after 20 minutes into game, no matter how hard you snowballed. Riot should remove the really long pounce so they can afford to give Nidalee power back. There is absolutely nothing wrong with her long range pounce. half the champion pool has a dash, blink, or jump with very similar range and no prerequisite. I think hunt and prowl should be reworked sure but not removed. She should have more ways of getting the mark off but also require more effort to maximize the effects of it. The whole point of hunt was to make Nidalee combo human and cougar together. This isn't pre-rework Nidalee and we aren't getting that back. Old Nidalee was great in her time but she can't survive the game League has become with her old kit.
: It was good for taking down tanks and i'm sure it still will be
> [{quoted}](name=FaZe Cupid,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=aMZruRUh,comment-id=00270001,timestamp=2018-11-20T09:17:45.401+0000) > > It was good for taking down tanks and i'm sure it still will be and most likely it'll still be better to just get Last whisper or void staff
: Patch 8.23 notes
lmao that guinsoo's rework is trash. wth is going on here? Can we please revisit the original direction of it's first form? Thje original gave AD and AP and stacked with attacks and ability casts granting additional attackspeed and AP. It was a bad item that only a few could use but what it was trying to accomplish wasn't bad. This is a joke item even for an on-hit build
Meddler (NA)
: Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=o7Ts852E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-31T15:38:05.689+0000) > > Separate note just for the NA Boards - my apologies, but I'm just about to leave town for a few days. Won't be able to respond to comments or questions this morning as a result. Back to usual on that as well next week. Kind of wish you were more active on your posts throughout the day instead of just an hour or two after posting.
Malak (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Adalvar,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:07:34.255+0000) > > Hi Meddler...now that the issues with {{champion:81}} and {{champion:127}} are finished, i'd like to talk about another point on my personal bucket list: {{item:3027}} > > Currently, the item takes too long to scale up and the pay off at the end isn't really worth it (less mana compared to other mana options and not that much AP). It's gotten to the point where champs that had this as a core item are slowly dropping it. Would you consider tweaking it's passive around so that you gain some added benefit *upon reaching the 10 minute stacking mark*? > > One relatively simple idea would be to shift the damage aura of {{item:3001}} (which doesn't make a lick of sense to belong in a tank item) and place it on {{item:3027}} as a reward for fully stacking the item (which would make a heck of alot more sense due to it's nature as a scaling item). > > Your thoughts on the issue and suggestion? yea RoA should change into Rod of Eternity or something, where the stacking passive is changed into abyssal's damage aura or something else that benefits CLOSE RANGE mages
> [{quoted}](name=Malak,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00100002,timestamp=2018-10-26T21:15:13.956+0000) > > yea RoA should change into Rod of Eternity or something, where the stacking passive is changed into abyssal's damage aura or something else that benefits CLOSE RANGE mages It would be nice if it was more than just a stat stick on a timer
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 26
I feel like I haven't been clear Meddler or you just don't check this past a certain point which happens to be after I'm able to access this site. Nidalee - She's been left in the dust by your balance and gameplay design choices. Too many champions are quick flashy and able to pull off incredible attacks in the flash of an eye and these types of designs have been steadily increasing as the years have gone by making older champion designs obsolete and requireing champion updates and reworks. Your balance design choices for Nidalee have been to plunge her back into the old way of design while she's still surrounded by the new design. I don't know if you've played the souls series games or even know the difference between them all but it's basically like Nidalee is a player from Dark Souls being thrust into the world of Blood Borne except you're still playing with the clunky slow tank controls of Dark souls while everyone has the fast paced quick and agile controls of Bloode Born. Now despite some distinct difference between the two a Dark souls player cannot survive the mechanics and abilities of a Blood Borne character. The closes modern design choice in League that fits this analogy are Juggernauts. They are designed to be slow clunky and telegraphed but hit big and be able to take a big hit while doping it. Nidalee is not a Juggernaut and can't do any of those so we are basically forced to play like a stealth champion and unfortunately we weren't gifted with a cardboard box or given the ability to go invisible so we're stuck with telegraphing a lot and due to clunkiness and having to draw our fights out we're frequently behind eating dirt to try and catch up. Nidalee should be fast and terrifying but she's slow, telegraphed and clunky. You increased cast times on a character that's supposed to be fast, increased cooldowns that are supposed to be fast, you removed auto attack rests from us that slowed down our champion to champion combat, you reduced the range on our speed boost, and you've made everyone faster and faster while leaving our primary way into the fight as one of the slowest and smallest skillshots in the game. I hate comparing skillshots because every champion is the same but Javelin Toss has a hit radius of 20 and a projectile speed of 1300 and it is absolutely mandatory that you hit this skill in order to do the rest of your combo. Lux binding hit radius is 50 and has a projectile speed of 1200 plus it can go through one enemy and hit a second target and Ezreal Mystic Shot has a hit radius of 50 and projectile speed of 2000. Javelin Toss should be somewhere in the middle there. The only skillshots that should be as slow as Nidalee's are the ones that provide CC. I don't see Jayce and Jinx getting a skill that slow and hitting there's is about finishing their combo not starting it. It's already bad enough we have 0 CC and any dash, flash, blink, or movespeed burst can take enemies out of our combo if we even manage to land it but you've made it so damn hard to land and it isn't even about getting good. That would have been fine back in the old days when most characters were slow but now everyone is so fast and agile and easily able to dodge everything. You have more movespeed options in Runes now than you used to and had the bonus from boots split between boots 1 and champion stats so more champions wouldn't require boots early game. This stuff has big impacts Anyway I'm done. You'll probably never read this either. Nidalee has been ignored for the better part of a year while her counters constantly get buffed and all the reasons Nidalee got nerfed get turned on their heads. P.S.: Hunt is bugged again. True site doesn't work on stealth units most of the time especially when they transition to steal just after getting hit. Kai'Sa and Kha'six for example.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 24
You guys are completely all over the popular champions regardless of whether they are good or not and completely ignoring champions that you dumpstered. When are you guys going to seriously look at Nidalee? Almost every jungler outperforms her, can clear just as fast if not faster, brings more utility, objective control, and team play. You've made it so that when we get behind we can never recover. We're too squishy for what our kit requires us to do, too slow for what was supposed to be a mobile kit with no CC, and our damage is locked away in scaling putting us at an early game disadvantage in most matchups while having a hard time getting to that mid to late game point because most of the popular junglers can waltz into our jungle and kill us with relative easy and run us down because everyone has damage, CC, and mobility. Tanks are the only class that can't outright do that to us and they don't need to because of what they provide the team even when extremely behind. We've been ignored almost this entire season after the changes to the jungle and runes. Most of the past nerfs made to Nidalee wouldn't have been required in this jungle and this meta. Still even without the jungle you made Lane Nidalee into a joke too. All of her abilities have been gated with clunkiness and unreliability as a means to balance her. I can't think of a single champion who has a skillshot that both gated by size, speed, and distance while also being gated by the fact that the skill has to land for the rest of their kit to be relevant. Are we going to stay in the dumpster for another season or are you actually going to give Nidalee a look. We played her for her versatility, theme, skillfloor(meaning not everyone plays her), and skill ceiling(showing that we're bad asses) but balance decided to clunky unreliability were the best options for balancing her in a game full of mobile smooth fast paced kits that can do what our kit draws out over a few seconds in a near instance without any need to line everything up perfectly. Also Hunt is bugged. It's not revealing stealth units that transition to steal. Kaisai for instance disappears when she uses her stealth instead of remaining visible for us to attack. Also on top of Javelin Toss having an absurdly small hit box it's abysmal projectile speed the hit detection is broken and will often pass right through enemies. I've had countless Javelins pass through red buff and blue buff or zip right on through a champion model and either hit nothing or hit something far behind them. Nidalee's a high risk champion to make changes on because of her history. I get it... but nothing she has required to be balanced since her rework was rocket science. No one is talking to us about a champion we play and know like the back of our hands. Stop putting more power into the champions that already have fun wrecking us and weakening the strategies we rely on if you're just going to keep ignoring us.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 10
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item. PS. DH nerfs are just another indirect nerf to Nidalee
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 19
Meddler... man what is going on with Nidalee? You tell us maybes and maybes but she's been sitting in the gutter for a long time. She's a paper tiger trying to play as some odd combination of poke, brawler, and assassin while failing at all of them and her only defense is mobility and her mobility is becoming more and more of a joke with every patch you guys release. You keep indirectly nerfing her with each buff and rework you give to her counters. You haven't undone any of the past nerfs to her kit which in league's current state would have been completely unwarranted. She's not the fastest jungler, the safest jungler, or even a good early game jungler and she doesn't shine in team fights or late game. You get this nice sweet spot somewhere in the accelerated mid game where she might be great but it's so hit or miss that you are almost always relying on your teammates to execute a perfect early game just so you can be relevant. She's too slow and too squishy for how hit or miss/feast or famine her kit is. She's too squishy and you expect us to do this whole melee deal with 0 CC, average to below average mobility, no CC reduction, no reliable anything to her kit. She's supposed to be one of the epitome of skill expression champions but you've taken to trying to balancing her via clunkiness, sluggishness, and squishiness. Her combo's are difficult to achieve especially on the ridiculous level of mobility currently in the game and even harder to even get started with her binary hunt mechanic. Isn't is hilarious how mobility creep has been hurting a champion that used to be among Leagues most mobile champions? Half the champion pool can run us down and murder us with very little effort if we lose the element of surprise and it's so easy to lose the element of surprise. A guy that fights people with a lamppost shouldn't be able to run us down or beat us in a race across the map... a horse sure but a guy with a freaking lamppost??? Look you don't need a massive team effort to look into her. You have people that would love to work on her at RIOT and you have tons of Nidalee players that have been trying to give you feedback for years but you've been ignoring us and balancing her in ways that are counter intuitive and just outright nearsighted. We've had plenty of ideas and feedback for you but no one is listening. Please stop trying to turn an apex predator known for being extremely nimble, evasive, mobile, and deadly and trying to turn them into a sluggish clumsy toad with a cat skin. Cougar feels like playing game of frogger against oncoming traffic too often Please listen to what we have to say and actually consider our input instead of taking the input of a few that have no idea what Nidalee even is. So many people hate the idea of Nidalee getting most to a point where she's a competitive pick in ranked and the competitive scene but most of those players do not want a Nidalee in their game unless it's on the enemy team and there's a good reason for that. You ignored us before, you messed up, and now we're paying the price for it. That's it. You're probably not going to respond but man we've been waiting and waiting and waiting. She doesn't need massive buffs or reworks just to be functional. A skilled hunter, and apex predator, a battle cat not a prey item.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 9
I'm really not a fan of how jungle items have turned out nor with what's going on with the ap jungle itemization. I personally think you need to really simplify yet also expand how jungle items are currently being implemented. I think there need to be more varying jungle items especially when it comes to AP junglers. A one size fits all jungle item just doesn't work and past seasons have proven that over and over again. I personally believe that there should be jungle items for each general class of junglers to fit the unique archetypes that fall within each. We've got ap junglers, attack based junglers, and tanks/juggernaut junglers. 3 items for each with a gold efficient early buy and a slot efficient late buy and they should be based on items that are already in the game and balanced and be balanced alongside those items. Tuning for the jungle half should be done on the jungle portion of the item, jungle camps, and champions. One example: Skirmisher's Sabre + Sheen = Madreds spellblade. an empowered sheen effect of say 125% base ad and some bonus effect on camps and or with smite. Sheen items can fit all 3 classes of junglers. Madreds spellblade + glacial shroud = Madreds Gauntlet Madreds spellblade + aether wisp + blasting wand = Madreds Bane Madreds spellblade + stinger + phage = Madreds Heart Example 2: Skirmisher's Sabre + Haunting Guise = Madred's Breath. basically haunting guise with a jungle buff of some kind. a unique effect that only works towards monsters? Madred's Breath +blasting wand = Madred's Flame. etc Honestly there should be a jungle/lane equivalent of all the items. It eliminates things like rune glaive ezreal and other past item abuse cases and strictly leaves the balance in the items and not also where they're also mean to be used. You don't need to get super fancy with the jungle items but there needs to be more options and less one size fits all item attempts. not ever champion wants ludens, not every champion wants a sheen items. Some champions want more than a huge lump of AD and CDR, some champions want access to madreds razor outside the jungle. Please try to take some idea from this because while some champions like the runic echoes change others don't and it less so that the item is simply changing and more so that the items tries to accommodate everyone and honestly only accommodates the ones that fully utilize's the stat's and effects that it gives.
Wèaver (NA)
: While I agree with diversity in item builds, the jungle item should be a cheap alternative with lower stats that doesnt alienate a majority of items out there. If you have a jungle item that effectively replaces other in game items (assuming with the same unique passives) then it creates this disconnect. How would you feel about a low cost low stat one size fits all item? That way we could maintain item diversity without needing to funnel metas based on the ap item or needing 5+ items to accommodate everyone?
> [{quoted}](name=Wèaver,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BnERA43Z,comment-id=000300000004000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-06T07:46:31.338+0000) > > While I agree with diversity in item builds, the jungle item should be a cheap alternative with lower stats that doesnt alienate a majority of items out there. If you have a jungle item that effectively replaces other in game items (assuming with the same unique passives) then it creates this disconnect. How would you feel about a low cost low stat one size fits all item? That way we could maintain item diversity without needing to funnel metas based on the ap item or needing 5+ items to accommodate everyone? Because you have too many different types of champion play styles that do and don't use certain items. I'd prefer a cheaper lower stat version of other items that can be later upgraded to a equal version of same non jungle items. level 1 jungle items should be very gold efficient and upgraded versions aka lvl 2 should be slot efficient but not as gold efficient
Wèaver (NA)
: I agree with this, for AD champions you have an option of going Bloodrazor or Warrior, with casters opting for Warrior and Auto Attackers opting for Bloodrazor. It stands to reason you could have an AP option for mages and assassins respectively.
> [{quoted}](name=Wèaver,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BnERA43Z,comment-id=0003000000040000,timestamp=2018-05-06T06:13:28.746+0000) > > I agree with this, for AD champions you have an option of going Bloodrazor or Warrior, with casters opting for Warrior and Auto Attackers opting for Bloodrazor. It stands to reason you could have an AP option for mages and assassins respectively. Hell with AP you have burst casters, assassins, and then you have sustained ap damage. Ludens, lichbane, and liandires fits all of those and I think there should be a jungle equivalent for them all
: Diana has an area of effect slow knock up and a shield. She is far tankier than Nidalee.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c0000000100030001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-05T19:06:27.059+0000) > > Diana has an area of effect slow knock up and a shield. She is far tankier than Nidalee. Not really. she still blows up if she pulls that off in against a team. She might last a second longer if she wasn't horrendously fed
: Nidalee is most certainly an assassin. She has high mobility and high damage. Her primary goal is to dive the enemy squishy and kill them, then get out. She has no crowd control and no durability, so she's not a diver/assassin hybrid like Elise or Diana.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c00000001000300010000,timestamp=2018-05-05T17:23:10.219+0000) > > Nidalee is most certainly an assassin. She has high mobility and high damage. Her primary goal is to dive the enemy squishy and kill them, then get out. She has no crowd control and no durability, so she's not a diver/assassin hybrid like Elise or Diana. Her mobility is average and when she gets in she typically can't get out like other assassins. She's like a more mobile version of diana almost completely. hell her engage pattern is the same... hit Q do big damage and hope you live
: Few things here - A) I recall that during the last rework attempt on Nidalee, Riot said that her heal was important to her theme of hunting and that Nidalee players in general were attached to her not having CC. I think both of these things are a mistake to keep on her. B) If Nidalee is going to be in lane, she either needs to one shot or she needs some form of utility. At this point, Nidalee's kit does nothing that Zoe's kit doesn't do better. The only thing that Nidalee has going for her over Zoe is her form shift, and really what does her form shift offer her other than 0 mana abilities? C) Nidalee needs some form of crowd control. I suggest replacing her E entirely with something more offensive. However, if you want to keep E, at least make it so Nidalee can only cast it on herself. There's no reason for her to be able to heal her allies, it doesn't fit with the lore and it doesn't fit with an assassin's kit.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c000000010003,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:54:53.193+0000) > > Few things here - > > A) I recall that during the last rework attempt on Nidalee, Riot said that her heal was important to her theme of hunting and that Nidalee players in general were attached to her not having CC. I think both of these things are a mistake to keep on her. > > B) If Nidalee is going to be in lane, she either needs to one shot or she needs some form of utility. At this point, Nidalee's kit does nothing that Zoe's kit doesn't do better. The only thing that Nidalee has going for her over Zoe is her form shift, and really what does her form shift offer her other than 0 mana abilities? > > C) Nidalee needs some form of crowd control. I suggest replacing her E entirely with something more offensive. However, if you want to keep E, at least make it so Nidalee can only cast it on herself. There's no reason for her to be able to heal her allies, it doesn't fit with the lore and it doesn't fit with an assassin's kit. You don't even understand her kit thematic man. She was designed after warcraft druids with a hunter/domain over the jungle theme. All of that ties into primal magics which include things like healing, shapeshifting, and power over nature. Her kit having CC actually does make sense just not bonkers hard CC.(things like slows, staggers(breaks channels), disarms, and roots) Nidalee does not need to one shot and she does not need her E replaced. Her kit has always been about setting things up and going in for the kill like a proper hunter. She needs more of her damage moved to her abilities and less to her passive. Her passive should be a bonus not a requirement and she needs more reliable and additional ways to apply it. As for laning she needs something her current kit does not yet provide for it to work and it's something that could simply be added on as a passive to another ability but would require tweaks across her entire kit to allow it in. While I could totally give up on the heal allies part of her kit it should be noted that she's not an assassin. She's a little bit of everything and that's what draws a lot of players to her. She used to be the signature jack of all trades in league but the jungle pigeonholing has ruined that.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: Oh hi it me. Am interested in getting Nid back into a solo lane. Seems high value if we can achieve it given her gameplay and thematics. The issue I'm running into is that her current kit doesn't seem to support lane play without a number of game health risks or risks of making her jungle bonkers. As a result I expect getting lane Nidalee back would take a number of larger mechanical shifts on the champion as opposed to simple numbers changes. This is doable, but would take time (Similar scope to the work we did on Rengar). Was thinking of doing some exploratory work on her once I wrap up work on my current VGU. No promises however, the exploration could end up yielding nothing of value (Would only make changes if we were confident Lane Nid AND jungle Nid were being made better).
> [{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=B9N9NiWE,comment-id=001c00000001,timestamp=2018-05-04T21:13:49.816+0000) > > Oh hi it me. > > Am interested in getting Nid back into a solo lane. Seems high value if we can achieve it given her gameplay and thematics. The issue I'm running into is that her current kit doesn't seem to support lane play without a number of game health risks or risks of making her jungle bonkers. > > As a result I expect getting lane Nidalee back would take a number of larger mechanical shifts on the champion as opposed to simple numbers changes. This is doable, but would take time (Similar scope to the work we did on Rengar). Was thinking of doing some exploratory work on her once I wrap up work on my current VGU. No promises however, the exploration could end up yielding nothing of value (Would only make changes if we were confident Lane Nid AND jungle Nid were being made better). I was afraid of this but I did come up with a ton of ideas for guys like you to brain storm while you take a look into it. There is a reddit and League forum version which both may differ. I believe the reddit one has more details https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/kv9smc9N-nidalee-the-primal-gaurdian https://dd.reddit.com/r/NidaleeMains/comments/6yppqe/nidalee_rework_ideas_if_she_ends_up_being_on_the/
: Yep, unfortunately the movespeed was just better utilized by Nidalee, Elise, and Eve. We're hoping that this change opens up the jungle to more mages, along with the mana tuning on talisman.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BnERA43Z,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-05-02T00:26:24.724+0000) > > Yep, unfortunately the movespeed was just better utilized by Nidalee, Elise, and Eve. We're hoping that this change opens up the jungle to more mages, along with the mana tuning on talisman. Maybe you shouldn't try to make a one size fits all ap item and actually make 2 or 3. You can easily base them on items that the different class ap junglers already build just how runic echoes was another version of Luden's Echo. The way you're doing this now one class or another is getting screwed
Meddler (NA)
: Thanks. Haven't heard a pitch from August on lane Nid, going to tag him in to share his thoughts instead as a result. We'd like to get Nid back into lane, but have concerns that need to be addressed is the starting point and why we haven't just added some laning focused power to her.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZpEtcFmB,comment-id=0036000000030001,timestamp=2018-05-02T17:48:03.328+0000) > > Thanks. Haven't heard a pitch from August on lane Nid, going to tag him in to share his thoughts instead as a result. We'd like to get Nid back into lane, but have concerns that need to be addressed is the starting point and why we haven't just added some laning focused power to her. We've given tons of feedback to several of you on Nidalee and I know personally I've posted on your gameplay thoughts several times, Ricklessabandon's twitter, and RiotAugust's twitter. So many ways to go with her. I would like to point out that generally with most roles there is a gold standard that balance tries to match and normally one or two champions represent that gold standard. Perhaps reverting Nidalee and doing a jungle rebalance along with a change to most junglers is in order? That's be a silly big project though so likely no. Her passive could be changed drastically. For one she's too reliant on it and it makes her kit very binary and it aids in making her too strong of a jungler. There are many ways to go with this but if lane Nidalee is ever going to be a thing a gain her passive needs to be a bonus not a requirement and she needs to fell like a fast efficient huntress. You could try balancing her passive in some similar fashion to how Evely's stealth is balanced where she gains new bonuses with ranks in R. You could split her passive into a damage bonus and utility bonus - The damage bonus applies to champions only and the utility to everything. Her Traps and Swipe are very underwhelming uninteresting skills in her kit right now. You've straight stripped traps of all their useful attributes in order to balance her in the jungle. Honestly a lot of mechanics in her kit are stripped down, underwhelming, and easy to outplay. One reason why she's even good at all is because she can jungle and most of her flaws are hidden by the cover of Fog of War allowing her to potentially get off powerful combos when an enemy is unaware. Element of surprise is our biggest tool. This is something other junglers don't need nearly as much and can just run up in plain sight and do because their only requirement is being in range for most things. Anyway please keep us in mind when you start looking for ideas. Nidalee mains subreddit have a lot of ideas
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 27
Meddler are we going to see any kind of updates or fixes for Nidalee anytime? I can list off a few things that do and don't effect her jungle since that's always a reason not to help her anywhere else or in general. Nidalee is stuck in a game currently where teams snowball completely diminishing a large reason for playing her. She's reliant on snowballing the early game and in most cases she's even with other champions when she should be ahead or heavily behind when she's behind. One major idea for balancing Jungle Nidalee is to change the hunt mechanic. Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus like it should have been. Split hunt into a utility bonus and damage bonus on all skills. The utility effect applies to everything while the damage effect only applies to champions. Move power out of hunt and back into the base skills. The removal of the auto attack reset was meant to curb her power but ruined her fluidity and coupled with her base attackspeed nerfs hit her dps heavily when swapping forms. They served a very big purpose in her kit because of what form swapping does to your attack timer when you don't have the reset. Without the reset your attack timer is increased lowering your dps and making it take longer to get off your next attack(basically a self inflicted cold steel debuff). With the reset it increases your dps but only when you actually time it right otherwise it just leads to you not having a dps loss. Now tell me which sounds better to you? being punished for using ability or being rewarded for using an ability efficiently? I know that's always going to be a problematic topic because balancing her for the jungle is a pain but honestly I think It would have been easier to tweak the jungle camps and items than to do so many changes to her. Jungle Nidalee is a hot mess so we'll move on to other things. Her engage pattern and her laning are horrible. Her kit is too binary and while she isn't the most binary champion in league the way her is setup leads it's self to being either extremely oppressive or completely useless. She already got gutted for the oppressive aspects so I think it's time she got something back in return. Improve her engage pattern, Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus, and give us better ways of dealing with tanky CC heavy teams. Her Engage pattern * Her engage pattern suffers from being far too predictable and easy to avoid when enemies have line of sight which is one of many reason why Jungle is really her only good option. * My suggestions are to increase Javelin Toss Projectile speed and size. There's no reason for a single target raw damage skill, that is her only semi reliable way of accessing hunt to be so slow and easy to miss/dodge. There are hundreds of instances where we watch our skills go right through targets they should have hit. * Bushwhack need some serious work... Just look at this skill... it's pathetic. I loosely understand that there were limitations put on them to slow her jungle even though both pounce and bushwhack were both nerfed heavily. Traps did not need to be changed to be invisible and have health. We need them to have power that makes stepping on them dangerous while also having them visible so enemies know to avoid them. Give them shred again but cap monster damage, if not give them a debuff that only Nidalee benefits from, Give Nidalee a trap reservoir which seems standard on most trap bearing champions now. * Give her a third option for applying Hunt. The rework team really dropped the ball on making Primal Surge make more sense in her kit and the balance team just made it worse. The attackspeed heal needs to count for something if she's just going to be a jungling AP assassin even though I think she makes more sense as AD or some AP auto attacker. Give her or an ally a 3-4 hit attackbonus when under the effects of primal Surge that applies Hunt. This could solve a lot of issues when it comes to laning and dealing with ranged laners that utilize the minion wave against you while poking you down with AOE. Making Hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus is something that can be easily achieved. Give them a damage damage amp side and utility effect. * Examples: Takedown reverted to pre-rework status in all regards - Deals physical damage, scales up to original values, and has original cooldown. hunt bonus: ignores a percent of the targets DR and gives true sight of the target based on how low they are. * Pounce cut the damage in half , increase the range by a smidgen, increase damage(champions only) and range on hunted targets. * Swipe: A very boring skill with nothing special to it. lower base damage give it AD and AP scaling, apply on-hit effects, shreds hp, and hunt bonus increases health shred(champions only) and reduces a small amount of damage from the hunted target for a small duration. I could list so many ideas but take what you will from this. Nidalee has no way of dealing with tanky comps, She's nowhere near mobile enough to deal with the level of CC in the game right now, she has no CC, She's extremely squishy yet expected to go melee to compete for damage, and she doesn't do enough damage to deal with front liners especially if she falls behind. You fall behind and it doesn't matter what you build as Nidalee. You don't have the damage, mobility, durability, or utility to compete with tanky deathball comps once you're behind. * Bushwhack was traditionally the skill for dealing with tanky foes but you removed the hp shred and so many other things from the skill to the point that it's basically like summoning a lvl 1 caster minion for 2 seconds if you step on one. It's pathetic and you base get to use the hunt portion of it. Traps should regain the shred even if it's a champion on effect and you should gain a trap reservoir and be able to place more traps more often even if it means they lose their invisibility. This is an ability that's cost, utility, and damage don't make up for it taking an ability slot. * Takedown is already there for killing and with the above suggestion it would be another tool for hitting tanks in the soft spot. This ability is supposed to be about hitting a weakened enemy in their weak spot and attempting to kill them so I suggest it ignored a scaling percent of defensive stats on hunted targets. I should be able kill a tank or juggernaut at 10% health at any stage of the game but right now they can completely surprise you and live. * Swipe is the second most bland skill in Nidalee's kit. Just like every other skill in her kit it just does damage... There is no bonus effect to keep Nidalee strong in the game and frankly the is another skill that makes sense as a health stacking hurt skill. Lowering the base damage would easily make room for a light HP shred. Adding in AD scaling and applying on-hit effects would open the door for more diverse builds that can utilize AD, AP, and hybridized items and that flexibility is where Lane Nidalee shines As usual I know most rioters don't want anything to do with Nidalee so we'll get ignored but you keep buffing everything around her after tossing her into a pit. Eventually everything around her is going to rise up and bury her. You already rarely see her because her strengths are so hard to capitalize on since gold income changes and all these class and item changes. Please consider looking at her. Maybe give her a proper relaunch and bring back the original voice actor so we can improve her voice lines? She already said she'd love to.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 25
Meddler are we going to see any kind of updates or fixes for Nidalee anytime? I can list off a few things that do and don't effect her jungle since that's always a reason not to help her anywhere else or in general. Nidalee is stuck in a game currently where teams snowball completely diminishing a large reason for playing her. She's reliant on snowballing the early game and in most cases she's even with other champions when she should be ahead or heavily behind when she's behind. One major idea for balancing Jungle Nidalee is to change the hunt mechanic. Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus like it should have been. Split hunt into a utility bonus and damage bonus on all skills. The utility effect applies to everything while the damage effect only applies to champions. Move power out of hunt and back into the base skills. The removal of the auto attack reset was meant to curb her power but ruined her fluidity and coupled with her base attackspeed nerfs hit her dps heavily when swapping forms. They served a very big purpose in her kit because of what form swapping does to your attack timer when you don't have the reset. Without the reset your attack timer is increased lowering your dps and making it take longer to get off your next attack(basically a self inflicted cold steel debuff). With the reset it increases your dps but only when you actually time it right otherwise it just leads to you not having a dps loss. Now tell me which sounds better to you? being punished for using ability or being rewarded for using an ability efficiently? I know that's always going to be a problematic topic because balancing her for the jungle is a pain but honestly I think It would have been easier to tweak the jungle camps and items than to do so many changes to her. Jungle Nidalee is a hot mess so we'll move on to other things. Her engage pattern and her laning are horrible. Her kit is too binary and while she isn't the most binary champion in league the way her is setup leads it's self to being either extremely oppressive or completely useless. She already got gutted for the oppressive aspects so I think it's time she got something back in return. Improve her engage pattern, Make hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus, and give us better ways of dealing with tanky CC heavy teams. Her Engage pattern * Her engage pattern suffers from being far too predictable and easy to avoid when enemies have line of sight which is one of many reason why Jungle is really her only good option. * My suggestions are to increase Javelin Toss Projectile speed and size. There's no reason for a single target raw damage skill, that is her only semi reliable way of accessing hunt to be so slow and easy to miss/dodge. There are hundreds of instances where we watch our skills go right through targets they should have hit. * Bushwhack need some serious work... Just look at this skill... it's pathetic. I loosely understand that there were limitations put on them to slow her jungle even though both pounce and bushwhack were both nerfed heavily. Traps did not need to be changed to be invisible and have health. We need them to have power that makes stepping on them dangerous while also having them visible so enemies know to avoid them. Give them shred again but cap monster damage, if not give them a debuff that only Nidalee benefits from, Give Nidalee a trap reservoir which seems standard on most trap bearing champions now. * Give her a third option for applying Hunt. The rework team really dropped the ball on making Primal Surge make more sense in her kit and the balance team just made it worse. The attackspeed heal needs to count for something if she's just going to be a jungling AP assassin even though I think she makes more sense as AD or some AP auto attacker. Give her or an ally a 3-4 hit attackbonus when under the effects of primal Surge that applies Hunt. This could solve a lot of issues when it comes to laning and dealing with ranged laners that utilize the minion wave against you while poking you down with AOE. Making Hunt less of a requirement and more of a bonus is something that can be easily achieved. Give them a damage damage amp side and utility effect. * Examples: Takedown reverted to pre-rework status in all regards - Deals physical damage, scales up to original values, and has original cooldown. hunt bonus: ignores a percent of the targets DR and gives true sight of the target based on how low they are. * Pounce cut the damage in half , increase the range by a smidgen, increase damage(champions only) and range on hunted targets. * Swipe: A very boring skill with nothing special to it. lower base damage give it AD and AP scaling, apply on-hit effects, shreds hp, and hunt bonus increases health shred(champions only) and reduces a small amount of damage from the hunted target for a small duration. I could list so many ideas but take what you will from this. Nidalee has no way of dealing with tanky comps, She's nowhere near mobile enough to deal with the level of CC in the game right now, she has no CC, She's extremely squishy yet expected to go melee to compete for damage, and she doesn't do enough damage to deal with front liners especially if she falls behind. You fall behind and it doesn't matter what you build as Nidalee. You don't have the damage, mobility, durability, or utility to compete with tanky deathball comps once you're behind. * Bushwhack was traditionally the skill for dealing with tanky foes but you removed the hp shred and so many other things from the skill to the point that it's basically like summoning a lvl 1 caster minion for 2 seconds if you step on one. It's pathetic and you base get to use the hunt portion of it. Traps should regain the shred even if it's a champion on effect and you should gain a trap reservoir and be able to place more traps more often even if it means they lose their invisibility. This is an ability that's cost, utility, and damage don't make up for it taking an ability slot. * Takedown is already there for killing and with the above suggestion it would be another tool for hitting tanks in the soft spot. This ability is supposed to be about hitting a weakened enemy in their weak spot and attempting to kill them so I suggest it ignored a scaling percent of defensive stats on hunted targets. I should be able kill a tank or juggernaut at 10% health at any stage of the game but right now they can completely surprise you and live. * Swipe is the second most bland skill in Nidalee's kit. Just like every other skill in her kit it just does damage... There is no bonus effect to keep Nidalee strong in the game and frankly the is another skill that makes sense as a health stacking hurt skill. Lowering the base damage would easily make room for a light HP shred. Adding in AD scaling and applying on-hit effects would open the door for more diverse builds that can utilize AD, AP, and hybridized items and that flexibility is where Lane Nidalee shines As usual I know most rioters don't want anything to do with Nidalee so we'll get ignored but you keep buffing everything around her after tossing her into a pit. Eventually everything around her is going to rise up and bury her. You already rarely see her because her strengths are so hard to capitalize on since gold income changes and all these class and item changes. Please consider looking at her. Maybe give her a proper relaunch and bring back the original voice actor so we can improve her voice lines? She already said she'd love to.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 20
It would be nice to hear something about Nidalee. You have no idea how it feels to be kicked into a hole and left there while everything around you rises up above you and buries you and that's how it feels right now as a Nidalee player. Like we're being left in the dust
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-04-10T22:47:59.257+0000) > > Nidalee's cougar form is gated by her ability to utilize her human form properly including the mana cost gating. in essence you get cost free cougar abilities but if you want empowered abilities it costs mana and the empowered abilities are immensely better than the regular ones. There was nothing wrong with her stacking tear with cougar ignoring the point what we agree with each other and yet you still seem to be trying to argue with me. the way you say you need to pay for human skills to empower your kitty forms skills, is i guess true if you stretch the wording enough. i mean technically yes, the abilities wont become empowered unless hunted if proced. and you can only proc them by spending mana on human skills but that is still a really bad way to look at it. becuase you spend the mana on the skills REGARDLESS or not hunted is ever proced. and when u say "spending mana to empower it" makes it sound like you could like just pay more mana w/e you want the ability to be empowered like you cold with the old {{item:3042}} . procing hunted is based entirely around landing the spear, yes u need mana to throw the spear, but you can spend infinite mana and it wont do shit if you cant ever hit anyone with said spear. and although traps do _technically_ proc hunted. its pretty much worthless for anything except acting like a mini ward becuase the changes you actaully being in range pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap is next to zero.. and the chances of you WANT to pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap IS zero i think since nidalee's rework 4 years ago i had got to pounce in for the kill TWICE because they stepped on a trap. and i have MANY more people with the traps THEMSELVES traps back when they did % max hp. and i have also killed one person since the gutting of traps but they were also taking other forms, it was just the trap DOT tick that did the killing blow.. my teammate would have killed them regardless
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T02:08:35.811+0000) > > ignoring the point what we agree with each other and yet you still seem to be trying to argue with me. > > the way you say you need to pay for human skills to empower your kitty forms skills, is i guess true if you stretch the wording enough. > > i mean technically yes, the abilities wont become empowered unless hunted if proced. and you can only proc them by spending mana on human skills > > but that is still a really bad way to look at it. becuase you spend the mana on the skills REGARDLESS or not hunted is ever proced. > > and when u say "spending mana to empower it" makes it sound like you could like just pay more mana w/e you want the ability to be empowered like you cold with the old {{item:3042}} . > > procing hunted is based entirely around landing the spear, yes u need mana to throw the spear, but you can spend infinite mana and it wont do shit if you cant ever hit anyone with said spear. > > and although traps do _technically_ proc hunted. > its pretty much worthless for anything except acting like a mini ward > > becuase the changes you actaully being in range pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap is next to zero.. > and the chances of you WANT to pounce in on someone who stepped on a trap IS zero > > i think since nidalee's rework 4 years ago i had got to pounce in for the kill TWICE because they stepped on a trap. > > and i have MANY more people with the traps THEMSELVES traps back when they did % max hp. > > and i have also killed one person since the gutting of traps > but they were also taking other forms, it was just the trap DOT tick that did the killing blow.. my teammate would have killed them regardless I'm simply saying that unlike Jayce, who's abilities can be used in any number of orders and don't really have big requirements to be effective, Nidalee's kit is very binary and you really only have one effective way to utilize it to it's fullest which is proc hunt and cougar engage and then disengage or repeat the pattern again. The pattern is mana gated by an unreliable empower mechanic that you most likely take several attempts at so there's no reason to gate her cougar abilities for mana further and there was no reason to nerf her ability to utilize tear. In short all of Jayce's abilities are reliable and can be used in any order so they all cost mana to gate that effectiveness. Nidalee's Human form is gated by mana while her cougar is free but if you want to use cougar properly it actually is gated by human mana costs since you need hunt procs to get threatening damage and engage. Lets just agree that tear change was a bs nerf to one champion that we enjoyed
: @riot Can we get an update on nidalee
I get the feeling she'll remain in the dumpster till next season. Nidalee when ahead is almost literally equal with most other picks where as when she's behind she's just complete garbage and you get punished for mistakes so heavily it's not funny.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-09T04:35:06.846+0000) > > They already nerfed Nidalee, Jayce, and Elise by making it so Their R transform didn't proc Tear. I have no idea why they decided to hit their manaless abilities too since they don't have a relatively quick way to stack it otherwise. This was literally a direct nerf to Nidalee and just Nidalee for no real reason. You could stack tear just as fast as some of the other tear users when you could use cougar and maybe a little faster than the average user but without cougar it's a abysmally slower. > > You won't see elise build tear and this doesn't effect Jayce at all. this.. {{champion:126}} hammer forms costs mana still, this was a complete needless gut of {{item:3070}} on nidalee. i mean it would be stupid easy to fix... just make nid's kitty abilities cost .01 mana. you're done i mean granted that would be a shitty cheap-ass spaghetti-code way to do it. rather than properly coding them to work with the item. but hey.. w/e works... and its not like riot has ever been exactly opposed to spaghetti-code
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xV5L80ji,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-04-10T01:28:27.764+0000) > > this.. {{champion:126}} hammer forms costs mana still, > this was a complete needless gut of {{item:3070}} on nidalee. > i mean it would be stupid easy to fix... just make nid's kitty abilities cost .01 mana. > > you're done > > i mean granted that would be a shitty cheap-ass spaghetti-code way to do it. rather than properly coding them to work with the item. > but hey.. w/e works... > and its not like riot has ever been exactly opposed to spaghetti-code Nidalee's cougar form is gated by her ability to utilize her human form properly including the mana cost gating. in essence you get cost free cougar abilities but if you want empowered abilities it costs mana and the empowered abilities are immensely better than the regular ones. There was nothing wrong with her stacking tear with cougar
: why was tear changed to "mana expendature"
They already nerfed Nidalee, Jayce, and Elise by making it so Their R transform didn't proc Tear. I have no idea why they decided to hit their manaless abilities too since they don't have a relatively quick way to stack it otherwise. This was literally a direct nerf to Nidalee and just Nidalee for no real reason. You could stack tear just as fast as some of the other tear users when you could use cougar and maybe a little faster than the average user but without cougar it's a abysmally slower. You won't see elise build tear and this doesn't effect Jayce at all.
: I don't think Ionia is very strongly based on Asian culture. Some Ionians {{champion:110}} {{champion:141}} appear to be European, while some Demacians {{champion:5}} appear to be Asian, so I think Riot has tried to avoid making any continent/nation into a symbol for a real-life race/culture/ethnicity. The real-life Ionians were Greeks, and while they did interact with Asians and there were Indo-Greeks, etc., they were still culturally European. Varus even has a Greek -us suffix on his name. I think Riot wanted to be able to use a mix of cultural inspiration for Ionia and they just picked the name because it gave a sense of "east" due to real-life Ionia being an eastern fringe of the ancient European world.
> [{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=mXFnyTYk,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-04T02:48:39.044+0000) > > I don't think Ionia is very strongly based on Asian culture. Some Ionians {{champion:110}} {{champion:141}} appear to be European, while some Demacians {{champion:5}} appear to be Asian, so I think Riot has tried to avoid making any continent/nation into a symbol for a real-life race/culture/ethnicity. The real-life Ionians were Greeks, and while they did interact with Asians and there were Indo-Greeks, etc., they were still culturally European. Varus even has a Greek -us suffix on his name. I think Riot wanted to be able to use a mix of cultural inspiration for Ionia and they just picked the name because it gave a sense of "east" due to real-life Ionia being an eastern fringe of the ancient European world. Xin is from Ionia. He was rescued from Noxus fighting arenas by Jarvan III and brought to demacia where he now serves loyally
Neamean (NA)
: Conqueor and challenger skins
Nidalee is human not Vastayan
: If the solution thats reached for buffing midalee is better wave clear maybe instead they could just make swipe deal increased damage to creeps so that it wouldn't have any affect on jungle nidalee. Though even then I think another big problem is that even if you can lane safety and farm up in mid lane it won't matter if her late game is still bad. Maybe we could look at ways at making her more dominate in lane vs her opponents.
> [{quoted}](name=WindLord7070,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mIs34AWs,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-01T19:03:56.914+0000) > > If the solution thats reached for buffing midalee is better wave clear maybe instead they could just make swipe deal increased damage to creeps so that it wouldn't have any affect on jungle nidalee. Though even then I think another big problem is that even if you can lane safety and farm up in mid lane it won't matter if her late game is still bad. Maybe we could look at ways at making her more dominate in lane vs her opponents. I don't see her having good wave clear without having something akin to an AP scaling attack buff similar to nashors tooth passive or another odd idea that would probably make her too good at poking but say a partial cooldown and mana refund when she kills targets with Javelin toss and a partial mana refund when it merely hits a target(the greater refund being on kill) Cougar is already good for wave clear but you're more likely to lose half if not more hp doing so when vs another champion mid
: > The kill streak bounty changes previously mentioned (solo gold instead of team) I missed out on the previous mention, but as a first impression, I don't like this idea. It seems like the "wrong" person last hitting a shutdown would be not only tilting, but potentially an occasion for within-team toxicity. (Even more so than it is already, I mean.) If someone is shutdownable at all, it probably takes a team to actually get the shutdown, so giving a huge individual reward to just one person doesn't feel right. Unless it were restricted to literal solo kill shutdowns, I guess. Or maybe, instead of just going to the last hitter, it is divided equally among everyone who participated in the shutdown, but not people on the other side of the map (aside from ulting Soraka/Karthus etc.)?
> [{quoted}](name=Partholonian,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=009b,timestamp=2018-04-01T01:07:40.429+0000) > > I missed out on the previous mention, but as a first impression, I don't like this idea. It seems like the "wrong" person last hitting a shutdown would be not only tilting, but potentially an occasion for within-team toxicity. (Even more so than it is already, I mean.) > > If someone is shutdownable at all, it probably takes a team to actually get the shutdown, so giving a huge individual reward to just one person doesn't feel right. > > Unless it were restricted to literal solo kill shutdowns, I guess. Or maybe, instead of just going to the last hitter, it is divided equally among everyone who participated in the shutdown, but not people on the other side of the map (aside from ulting Soraka/Karthus etc.)? This means that death balling becomes weaker and that you're more reliant on carry champions getting the gold. Currently death balling teams are too strong because global gold gain is too high on those shared kills and objectives. Champions that rely on getting a high gold advantage aren't as impactful because everyone has their pockets lined
: obnoxious ?? not for all.
> [{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=002d00010002000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-31T22:38:43.325+0000) > > obnoxious ?? not for all. True. but when you get placed vs yasuo as a immobile skillshot user it's horrible
: fun is subjective. i like play against yasuo, but most feel like its toxic
> [{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=002d000100020000,timestamp=2018-03-31T00:25:54.374+0000) > > fun is subjective. > > i like play against yasuo, but most feel like its toxic Because playing against him feels like an obnoxious mini game on it's own.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 30
How's Nidalee looking on your future radar? She was traditionally a laner till she got the ability to hunt monsters and AD Nidalee got gutted. She's gone through so many changes to balance her jungle but changes hit both her PVE and her PVP and now her pvp is in a sorry state and with the whole shift in what's good she's in a really weak spot and nothing feels good on her. She's an early to mid game champion and all her power has been pushed into her passive or scaled over the ranks in her R making her early game weaker and weaker. Are there any plans to look at her at all?
Kaìju (NA)
: IBG and Frozen Mallet, heal the ADC when they get low.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaìju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0hqhh519,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T23:03:27.167+0000) > > IBG and Frozen Mallet, heal the ADC when they get low. Sure but there are so many other champions that are going to do all of that better. You're basically playing at a handicap in the enemy teams favor
Kaìju (NA)
: I suppose. I just go tanky healer at that point.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaìju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0hqhh519,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T02:49:39.520+0000) > > I suppose. I just go tanky healer at that point. But what do you provide as a tank healer? You have the weakest target burst heal in the game and no CC.
mirAcIe (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=kv9smc9N,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T19:57:36.423+0000) > > Is she though? How often do you see a good Nidalee do good? How often do you see her played? > > Ya don't say? Where was Nidalee again? She might have fallen out of favor because of the current meta, but it doesn't mean she has to be deleted and replaced with something else labeled as "Nidalee" for the sake of seeing her more often. I would prefer if Riot reverted some of the previous nerfs like W and auto resets, because since then the game has been polluted with such utter cancer that those things don't even seem like a big deal anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=mirAcIe,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=kv9smc9N,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T07:47:50.820+0000) > > She might have fallen out of favor because of the current meta, but it doesn't mean she has to be deleted and replaced with something else labeled as "Nidalee" for the sake of seeing her more often. I would prefer if Riot reverted some of the previous nerfs like W and auto resets, because since then the game has been polluted with such utter cancer that those things don't even seem like a big deal anymore. I fail to see where what I've presented deletes her... I've basically enhanced all her skills to more modern standards and given them all unique effects that are both powerful and unique to Nidalee while also making since with her kit thematically. Her skills are more or less the same and serve virtually the same purpose.
: fine if you want to be so technical, 3.6 or 3.3 depending if you have 40% or 45% CDR. Still don't see how she's not highly mobile. Terrain scaling is more important than just movespeed
> [{quoted}](name=SkyeMoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fhc4bHcG,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T02:58:20.875+0000) > > fine if you want to be so technical, 3.6 or 3.3 depending if you have 40% or 45% CDR. Still don't see how she's not highly mobile. Terrain scaling is more important than just movespeed Probably because you don't play her and get run down by the plethora of highly mobile champions like the rest of us do. Most of them have CC to kill our mobility on top of their own mobility
Kaìju (NA)
: I've never really had an issue poking out tanks in the top lane as Nidalee. I take Grasp for the extra health and survivability but I generally can poke the enemy out through Grasp procs, either ranged or melee.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaìju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0hqhh519,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T02:14:47.778+0000) > > I've never really had an issue poking out tanks in the top lane as Nidalee. I take Grasp for the extra health and survivability but I generally can poke the enemy out through Grasp procs, either ranged or melee. I'm not talking about top lane 1v1s I'm talking about coordinated team engagements. Early game most champions are going to be weak to poke though it's once laning begins to end that that sustain really becomes problematic.
: ok so we're going by base CD. Still shorter than most.
> [{quoted}](name=SkyeMoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fhc4bHcG,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T01:51:18.788+0000) > > ok so we're going by base CD. Still shorter than most. You're not getting 3 seconds anyway unless you're talking about hunt resets and you don't typically build over 20% cdr on Nidalee. The majority of those champions I listed earlier can run faster than Nidalee can move with movespeed and pounce combined so unless you got a luck wall to hop over you're not escaping and if you're chasing well good luck with that one too because they're just going to outrun her the moment they get any distance because riot nerfed the range on her passive to useless levels. You have to be nipping their ankles to get it's benefits
Kaìju (NA)
: What tanks have healing outside Mao?
> [{quoted}](name=Kaìju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0hqhh519,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T22:30:10.723+0000) > > What tanks have healing outside Mao? Innate sustain they get just from building tank is actually pretty absurd. Most tanks are tanky enough to negate damage and have enough regen to out regen poke making poke a non-effective way of dealing with them. Tanky engage comps are supposed to be countered by poke and peel but you can't poke them and if they gain any distance on you they regen back to almost full hp and come back for round 2
: 3s pounce, not highly mobile :thinking:
> [{quoted}](name=SkyeMoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fhc4bHcG,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-28T00:22:37.563+0000) > > 3s pounce, not highly mobile :thinking: 6 seconds actually. used to be 5 and way back before her rework it was 3
: A lot of those champions you listed have limited or conditional mobility. Just because other champions are mobile doesn't make Nidalee immobile. Her Pounce is on a much lower CD than most if not all those; many of them need something to click to for their mobility. Why the fuck are you arguing her about her mobility anyway, this is off topic. You sound like one of those people who just love to argue or hear themselves talk.
> [{quoted}](name=SkyeMoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fhc4bHcG,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-26T03:20:35.458+0000) > > A lot of those champions you listed have limited or conditional mobility. Just because other champions are mobile doesn't make Nidalee immobile. Her Pounce is on a much lower CD than most if not all those; many of them need something to click to for their mobility. Why the fuck are you arguing her about her mobility anyway, this is off topic. You sound like one of those people who just love to argue or hear themselves talk. In regards to your statement it is on topic. She's mobile but she's not "Highly mobile" as you seem to think and just like all of those choices I listed her is also situational. Pounce is a joke of a mobility spell without hunted targets to leap to. Almost all those picks get CC, mobility, and durability and their itemization allows them to function. Nidalee's options are spell damage items with limited durability options and not many useful bonus effects that she can use to empower the rest of her kit which does mostly raw damage with next to no utility and 0 cc. All you can build for is a deep diving all in assassin and hope you stay ahead and have mostly squishy enemies. Look at all the AD item options and tell me they're on par for an ap champion that functions mostly like an AD assassin. Oh and please stop describing yourself through me. you'er the one going off topic and pulling off the ad hominem attack
Kaìju (NA)
: Her kit might need a tiny bit of tweaks since she has built in healing that is also a combat steroid but I think with some work she could be made to lane again without too much overbearing power.
> [{quoted}](name=Kaìju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0hqhh519,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-27T13:59:25.758+0000) > > Her kit might need a tiny bit of tweaks since she has built in healing that is also a combat steroid but I think with some work she could be made to lane again without too much overbearing power. I don't know if you've noticed but pretty much every tank in the game has access to absurd sustain and most top laners have it too. Nidalee's is probably the weaker of the bunch especially after they gutted it by making it only scale to strength on low hp which exactly where Nidalee doesn't want to be.
: This doesn't seem like it necessarily changes anything about her current kit that needs fixing. Nidalee's problem is that her kit does everything at once but it does it all anywhere from mediocre to badly. Imo remove the E, that has no place in her kit. Add a damaging ability. Tone down the amount of power in her cougar form, all of her power is loaded into that. Possibly remove or heavily rework her W, I don't use it that much and even when I do or others use it, it contributes nothing to her gameplay.
> [{quoted}](name=Rico Nasty,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=kv9smc9N,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-26T18:04:21.112+0000) > > This doesn't seem like it necessarily changes anything about her current kit that needs fixing. Nidalee's problem is that her kit does everything at once but it does it all anywhere from mediocre to badly. > Imo remove the E, that has no place in her kit. Add a damaging ability. > Tone down the amount of power in her cougar form, all of her power is loaded into that. > Possibly remove or heavily rework her W, I don't use it that much and even when I do or others use it, it contributes nothing to her gameplay. Healing is a primary component of nature based primal based character and it makes perfect sense in her kit. It just isn't implemented fully into her kit in a way she can use. She doesn't need more damaging abilities on top of the ones she already has and the healing in her kit is there because she's meant to trade health in her skirmishes but she's meant to be the getting a positive trade out of it by mitigating some damage by healing it off. Bushwhack used to contribute a lot to her game play from Zone control, to tank busting, and vision. Her traps used to be visible so enemies knew not to step on them and they used to do respectable damage giving Nidalee a zone in which she could keep enemies from passing. Now they are a glorified hunt applier. They make sense on her kit though since she is a hunter and a predator and they merely need to be made a threat. You honestly sound like the kind of Nidalee player that just plays her for her spears and you're honestly not going to contribute much here if you can't utilize her entire kit as it is now. > [{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=kv9smc9N,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-27T09:54:38.884+0000) > > Nidalee is fine tho, the only change I'd like to have on her is a small VU Is she though? How often do you see a good Nidalee do good? How often do you see her played? > [{quoted}](name=mirAcIe,realm=EUW,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=kv9smc9N,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-27T09:36:12.632+0000) > > Don't give them ideas. They have already deleted enough champions. Ya don't say? Where was Nidalee again?
: > [{quoted}](name=Sagee Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fhc4bHcG,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-26T01:39:15.892+0000) > > lmao I'm sorry but she's not highly mobile. Ever chased a good Nidalee before? She can run your entire team around the map and still make it back to her own base safe & sound
> [{quoted}](name=SkyeMoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fhc4bHcG,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-26T01:45:45.954+0000) > > Ever chased a good Nidalee before? She can run your entire team around the map and still make it back to her own base safe & sound ever chased a good lee, a good jax, a good riven, a good kat, a good hecarim, a good udyr, a good gragas, sejauni, zac, yasuo... how about azir, ekko, leblank, fizz, and talon. This list can go on and all of those can do exactly what you just said and they can easily catch up to a nidalee unless she manages to safely clear a few walls without getting cut off. She only gets off with those type escapes by jumping over barrier walls and those aren't always an option. Too many champions get mobility, durability, and CC in one and it's really straining the effectiveness of those who only have mobility. The worst thing is all her mobility is given situationally. She doesn't get movespeed without brush or a target to chase, she doesn't get long range pounce without an in range hunted target, and regular pounce is not a very reliable source of mobility with it's range and cooldown.
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Sagee Prime

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