DarkPhil (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7i6mePq,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:20:05.458+0000) > > You don't have to.. but it probably wont help anything. Looking at it another way, what kind of idiot would try to balance a game around what does and doesn't make players of a single champ leave the game when he already wasn't that popular to begin with and most people probably will just switch to another champ which brings me to my next point > > Sounds like bullshit to me. Here's some statistics for you. > > You, 1 in 80+ million players are part of the 1% that are expected to actively participate in the game's community making you 1 in 800,000+ and then of all of us you are part of the lets say hmmm... > > http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=bronze > http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=silver > http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=gold > http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=plat > http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=platplus > > looks like he's been hovering around 3-4% for the previous 4 patches so you're 1 of 4% or making you 1 in 32,000 assuming an equal number of players of each champ is represented here. > > Whatever the odds, for whatever reason you feel like throwing a fit and leaving the game is worth mentioning as feedback. > > Whatever your motivation, you've gained some sort of attention and have thus squandered some chance to actually open a discussion about your experiences and draw attention to your specific hypothetical 1 in 32,000 active community renekton players thus energizing others of this group to further increase the odds of discussion and investigation into specific renekton players. On top of this, if you were to gather the attention of a higher ranked member of this group it could even further raise interest and urgency. > > here's a statistics problem for you. > > Timmy doesn't like the color red, there are infinite possibilities that aren't considered to be red. What are the odds that a person picking a color for him will pick one he likes on the first try? Does it help if I mention that humans can only detect a finite number of different colors and shades and then tell you that Timmy likes blue? > > Lol, I'm an ahri player. Ahri players don't have these problems because our players give feedback instead of salty tears for the most part. When riot causes an issue we press them for changes instead of quitting. Some of us quit yes.. nobody cares about them. > > Also 300 to 200 hp doesn't even seem important considering the rune changes. Hell there's a rune to give you 100hp for the duration of the game from level 1 lol. Everything you just wrote is completely meaningless because the bottom line is that there are players who have a favorite champion, and will stop playing if that champion becomes non-viable. Fewer players playing the game = less money for Riot. They are a business in the end, and will patch the game if people like me complain about it. Why do you care so much about what other people do with their time?
> [{quoted}](name=DarkPhil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7i6mePq,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-17T02:45:30.742+0000) > > Everything you just wrote is completely meaningless because the bottom line is that there are players who have a favorite champion, and will stop playing if that champion becomes non-viable. Fewer players playing the game = less money for Riot. They are a business in the end, and will patch the game if people like me complain about it. Why do you care so much about what other people do with their time? I don't really care that much. I just left a tidbit at first, something to consider while I was passing by. And then I got some kind of response and responded as I would respond to that kind of response. Renekton players leaving the game one at a time really doesn't mean much. Even if every renekton player left it wouldn't be that big a deal to be honest, all we need is ahri... #AhriFancultBanner But if you really want to make them change it would be better to stay and make a fuss than leave and take your information with you. That's why when ahri gets changes ahri players are happy in the end and when other champs get changed the changes tend to be awkward and uncomfortable. If you leave how can riot really know what you want? I mean sure you left them some shitty message but your gameplay and statistics tell them even more, things you don't even know theyre looking at. People have a terrible habit of saying what they don't like over.. and over.. AND OVER. But then cry when people who just say what they want get what they want and then they don't. Your original post basically asks "why can't he have that bad design pattern you've been avoiding for years on literally the entire champion base" and then doesn't really ask for any specifics nor do you attempt to engage other players much. You just say you're leaving and youre taking whatever is left of your money they already got or don't expect with you.
: Someone explain to me why I'm not allowed to win.
From experience I'm going to give you a probably correct guess based off what I saw. I've completely ignored your actual skills 3 problems 1. looking at your runes I bet you're not actually set up for a game that matches your slow game building. 2. you lose almost every game that goes past 30 minutes.. Something you're doing is falling off lategame and its not just your runes.. which are probably also falling off lategame 3. tear jayce isn't something you are going to carry yourself with if your team sucks. Especially with your burst masteries. How long does it take for you to get muramana anyways. I doubt its anything reasonable since your loss streak ended after you ranked up after a few wins with that one time trick. I suggest having another look at your runes and thinking more deeply about your champ, build, and what parts of the game (timewise) you actually excel in as opposed to what you're trying to excel in.
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > doesn't matter. The point is that there are already multiple instances where ridiculous things will continue to happen regardless of whether or not you cc the opponent. Yes it absolutely does it matter, because these functionalities are simply not the same. Again, read what I posted: Lux's CC isn't interrupted because it is simply a long cast animation, and cast animations cannot be interrupted once they are initiated unless you kill the champion. Ezreal does the same thing with his own ult. This is a general rule, not an exception. Zoe being able to cast while silenced, however, _is_ an exception. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > abnormal lore > abnormal theme > abnormal kit type Again, none of this describes what is "abnormal" about her. What's so abnormal about her lore? What makes her theme abnormal? What about her kit type? > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > abnormal.. what is even normal about her? Hell we just kindof assume its a 'she' even. She's actually pretty androgynous which is also abnormal So Zoe should be able to cast spells while CCed... because she's androgynous? I really don't follow. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > correct, it is a probably unjustified interaction. It is toxic Okay, glad we agree on this... > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > Many things are toxic and it doesn't require justification.. all of which is irrelevant This I do not agree with at all. The developers don't leave toxic in the game "just because", they either leave it because they personally think there is a justification, or they plan to address it in the future. There is no room whatsoever for unhealthy gameplay in a competitive PvP game. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > they'd be more directly related if people didn't try so hard to derail and change the context of my words. When I ask "why can't you dodge" it means I want to know why you can't dodge. If you follow with "I can't dodge because cc stopping abilities is a fundamental law of nature" that conversation is going to get weird Of course that conversation is going to get weird, because there is no relation between the question you're asking and what is being answered. In this case, dodging an ability is not relevant counterplay when a champion is hard-CCed, and therefore cannot throw out things to dodge, but even if it were, Zoe's projectile is fast enough that if you're within its initial casting range, you're likely to get hit no matter how fast you are. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > The first is a dismissal > The second is an inquiry > > The first is a demeaning suggestion that someone sucks and that orbwalking will fix the now downplayed problem > The second is a question meant to be answered in a very simple manner I don't think so, I think the second statement is merely a dismissal disguised as an inquiry. Framing accusations as a question does not make them any less accusatory, and whether or not you intended this, the question you asked did come off as demeaning, in exactly the way you mentioned. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > read the first post And I quote: "Literally the only counterplay for this fucking ability _other than 'dodge it'_..." So the OP did not, in fact, state that disabling Zoe's casts was the only counterplay to the entire champion, or even the ability being discussed, even though reading only the first four words of their post might suggest that. This would also answer your "question" about dodging. Not only is your argument here a straw man, but the above quote shows your interest in dodging here is even less relevant to the conversation, as it has already been answered in the first line of the original post. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > but it does seem to imply that there is much more counterplay to her than suggested _No, it does not._ Please listen to what I am telling you. I just explained to you that _balance and design are two different things_: a champion's win rate and raw statistical strength is balance; their counterplay is a matter of design. You can pick the most toxic champion in the game and nerf them to the ground, and they'll end up having a terrible win rate while still maintaining the same unhealthy gameplay, which is why _balance and design are not the same thing, and one cannot be evaluated based on the other_. This process of nerfing unhealthy champions is also something that Riot has deliberately applied in several cases, such as Poppy and Urgot pre-VGU, Kalista, Yasuo and Azir, to name but a few. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > again, this is the difference between what was suggested and what was actually said. I asked a simple question and I have yet to receive an answer. It doesn't matter if you think i'm disingenuous or not, the attack on the criticism is not a fabrication of my own making. If you didn't like my question you could just ask me to rephrase or ask my why i'm asking it. Instead I was accused of something off the wall and given a bunch of shit talk You asked an irrelevant question that deserves no answer here, and despite being told this, insist on focusing on it, which derails the original conversation. Intended or not, this falls under an internet trolling tactic known as [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lioning), wherein a troll comes into a space to derail it with irrelevant argumentation, pretending to be civil all the way through in an attempt to make their opponent look bad. I recommend you take steps to avoid coming off like this, particularly since your first few comments here were very quickly identified as such by many other players. At the end of the day, you are not entitled to having your question answered, particularly since in spite of your insistence upon it, you haven't actually justified why your question is relevant to the discussion. I think it is worth asking you why you asked that question, but also why that was also the only thing you talked about in your post: as mentioned by many others here, being able to orbwalk better or dodge outright is irrelevant to a discussion on a champion being able to cast through hard CC.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T15:24:38.909+0000) > > You asked an irrelevant question that deserves no answer here, and despite being told this, insist on focusing on it, which derails the original conversation. I asked a question that you, judge and jury have deemed irrelevant and proceeded to hand down your pompous judgement. If you don't like the question then don't answer it. If you don't want to go that route then don't give me your crap. > Intended or not, this falls under an internet trolling tactic known as [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lioning), wherein a troll comes into a space to derail it with irrelevant argumentation, pretending to be civil all the way through in an attempt to make their opponent look bad. I recommend you take steps to avoid coming off like this, particularly since your first few comments here were very quickly identified as such by many other players. I'm not pretending to be civil. I have a simple question and would have preferred a simple answer. I'm not pretending that you were being an ass when you responded and i'm not pretending that you needed to type anything more than that response I eventually got buried in your pile of crap. intended or not, your own actions could fall under a similar definition minus the civility. > At the end of the day, you are not entitled to having your question answered At the end of the day I didn't claim I was. You came practically crying foul over whatever imagined villainy i was perpetrating so I responded. > particularly since in spite of your insistence upon it, you haven't actually justified why your question is relevant to the discussion. Just as I am not entitled to an answer, you are not entitled to a formal explanation. I have a question, you are free to answer it or not answer it. Nobody is making you answer it just as nobody is making you cry over it. > I think it is worth asking you why you asked that question, but also why that was also the only thing you talked about in your post: as mentioned by many others here, being able to orbwalk better or dodge outright is irrelevant to a discussion on a champion being able to cast through hard CC. That tidbit was just to suggest that I'm thinking from a particular perspective. Maybe it doesn't matter. But as you can see some of the people here complaining about this don't even realize that there is such a tactic for dodging skillshots. From what I gather the problem is not simply that she can cast through hard CC but that she is lacking in counterplay or at least the ability is. Dodging, in theory, is not legitimate counterplay according to riot but just how dodgable is the ability really. It is counterplay in a manner of speaking just not accepted counterplay. I wonder if someone would be willing to suggest it cannot realistically be dodged and why. This also helps to establish a low counterplay playpattern perhaps but her winrate suggests that this isn't so simple. I also notice that the people here are impressed by 2000 damage in 3 seconds... Its not the damage, its not the casting through CC, that leads me to how reliable her attacks are which again leads me to "Why can't you dodge?" regardless of what route I take I end up at "why can't you dodge it?" which could be lengthened to "why can't you dodge it, or can you? Can it realistically be dodged and is it easy? What kind of playpattern makes it dodgeable, counterplay begins long before you ever land your cc and this conversation seems to be more about counterplay design than the actual ability.. but I don't want to accuse you of making a shit thread, I just want to know something from whoever might know.. why can't it be dodged?" I could also expand upon this but honestly at the end of the day its possible you'll find something to whine about no matter how I word it. I'm not even in complete disagreement, I just have a question and frankly don't care that much if you understand why I asked it right off the bat. Don't blame me just because you lack focus or ability to connect one thing to another just because I didn't spell out something you didn't actually ask me to spell out, not in this context anyways.
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > doesn't matter. The point is that there are already multiple instances where ridiculous things will continue to happen regardless of whether or not you cc the opponent. Yes it absolutely does it matter, because these functionalities are simply not the same. Again, read what I posted: Lux's CC isn't interrupted because it is simply a long cast animation, and cast animations cannot be interrupted once they are initiated unless you kill the champion. Ezreal does the same thing with his own ult. This is a general rule, not an exception. Zoe being able to cast while silenced, however, _is_ an exception. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > abnormal lore > abnormal theme > abnormal kit type Again, none of this describes what is "abnormal" about her. What's so abnormal about her lore? What makes her theme abnormal? What about her kit type? > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > abnormal.. what is even normal about her? Hell we just kindof assume its a 'she' even. She's actually pretty androgynous which is also abnormal So Zoe should be able to cast spells while CCed... because she's androgynous? I really don't follow. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > correct, it is a probably unjustified interaction. It is toxic Okay, glad we agree on this... > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > Many things are toxic and it doesn't require justification.. all of which is irrelevant This I do not agree with at all. The developers don't leave toxic in the game "just because", they either leave it because they personally think there is a justification, or they plan to address it in the future. There is no room whatsoever for unhealthy gameplay in a competitive PvP game. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > they'd be more directly related if people didn't try so hard to derail and change the context of my words. When I ask "why can't you dodge" it means I want to know why you can't dodge. If you follow with "I can't dodge because cc stopping abilities is a fundamental law of nature" that conversation is going to get weird Of course that conversation is going to get weird, because there is no relation between the question you're asking and what is being answered. In this case, dodging an ability is not relevant counterplay when a champion is hard-CCed, and therefore cannot throw out things to dodge, but even if it were, Zoe's projectile is fast enough that if you're within its initial casting range, you're likely to get hit no matter how fast you are. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > The first is a dismissal > The second is an inquiry > > The first is a demeaning suggestion that someone sucks and that orbwalking will fix the now downplayed problem > The second is a question meant to be answered in a very simple manner I don't think so, I think the second statement is merely a dismissal disguised as an inquiry. Framing accusations as a question does not make them any less accusatory, and whether or not you intended this, the question you asked did come off as demeaning, in exactly the way you mentioned. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > read the first post And I quote: "Literally the only counterplay for this fucking ability _other than 'dodge it'_..." So the OP did not, in fact, state that disabling Zoe's casts was the only counterplay to the entire champion, or even the ability being discussed, even though reading only the first four words of their post might suggest that. This would also answer your "question" about dodging. Not only is your argument here a straw man, but the above quote shows your interest in dodging here is even less relevant to the conversation, as it has already been answered in the first line of the original post. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > but it does seem to imply that there is much more counterplay to her than suggested _No, it does not._ Please listen to what I am telling you. I just explained to you that _balance and design are two different things_: a champion's win rate and raw statistical strength is balance; their counterplay is a matter of design. You can pick the most toxic champion in the game and nerf them to the ground, and they'll end up having a terrible win rate while still maintaining the same unhealthy gameplay, which is why _balance and design are not the same thing, and one cannot be evaluated based on the other_. This process of nerfing unhealthy champions is also something that Riot has deliberately applied in several cases, such as Poppy and Urgot pre-VGU, Kalista, Yasuo and Azir, to name but a few. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T14:21:12.669+0000) > > again, this is the difference between what was suggested and what was actually said. I asked a simple question and I have yet to receive an answer. It doesn't matter if you think i'm disingenuous or not, the attack on the criticism is not a fabrication of my own making. If you didn't like my question you could just ask me to rephrase or ask my why i'm asking it. Instead I was accused of something off the wall and given a bunch of shit talk You asked an irrelevant question that deserves no answer here, and despite being told this, insist on focusing on it, which derails the original conversation. Intended or not, this falls under an internet trolling tactic known as [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lioning), wherein a troll comes into a space to derail it with irrelevant argumentation, pretending to be civil all the way through in an attempt to make their opponent look bad. I recommend you take steps to avoid coming off like this, particularly since your first few comments here were very quickly identified as such by many other players. At the end of the day, you are not entitled to having your question answered, particularly since in spite of your insistence upon it, you haven't actually justified why your question is relevant to the discussion. I think it is worth asking you why you asked that question, but also why that was also the only thing you talked about in your post: as mentioned by many others here, being able to orbwalk better or dodge outright is irrelevant to a discussion on a champion being able to cast through hard CC.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T15:24:38.909+0000) > > Yes it absolutely does it matter, because these functionalities are simply not the same. Again, read what I posted: Lux's CC isn't interrupted because it is simply a long cast animation, and cast animations cannot be interrupted once they are initiated unless you kill the champion. Ezreal does the same thing with his own ult. This is a general rule, not an exception. Zoe being able to cast while silenced, however, _is_ an exception. it doesn't matter, the reason why it behaves this way really just doesn't matter. It was made in such a way that CC cannot stop it. It doesn't matter if its because its called an animation or because manatees are chubby. The end result is the same. Something that cannot be interrupted except through an extreme and unlikely scenario with optimal or even reasonable play. Furthermore it does not remove all fun and counterplay and they can all be dodged.. I added that last part just to tie into the thing I was actually interested in to begin with in a jokingly spiteful manner. > Again, none of this describes what is "abnormal" about her. What's so abnormal about her lore? What makes her theme abnormal? What about her kit type? I'd really rather not go through the motions of explaining why an abstract and unusual thing is abstract and unusual. Feel free to insist that she is just a cookie cutter design similar to every or anything else while in the same breath complaining that she does so many unique somethings > So Zoe should be able to cast spells while CCed... because she's androgynous? I really don't follow. androgyny is also linked to her intentional uniqueness. The first and only champ to have a name starting with the letter Q also ended up being androgynous. It is a symbolic act that makes the champ more unique in one more way. > Okay, glad we agree on this... a lot of things in this game are toxic, i'm just asking why it can't be dodged. Is it a lot of effort? What does she gain when you dodge and is it significant? What if you just eat it, what does she do then? > This I do not agree with at all. The developers don't leave toxic in the game "just because", they either leave it because they personally think there is a justification, or they plan to address it in the future. There is no room whatsoever for unhealthy gameplay in a competitive PvP game. Indeed, and when a major tournament is about to be underway they will address it immediately. Until then a peasant like you can just eat cake and give feedback on the flavor if able. That they can't afford to do this means nothing. I cannot afford to go to jail, that doesn't mean I can't and wont do illegal things. Whether or not I do it will not always be based off my moral compass nor my needs. I might do such things simply to see what its like or out of curiosity to see why its illegal in the first place. There is no need for justification, they don't have to justify what they do. They left Nasus strong for a while just to see what players came up with and to collect data on attack speed slows. The end result was that slowing attack speed was the biggest problem compared to a massive slow. Instant crippling was also an issue. They eventually decided they wanted to fix it. Also riot has repeatedly broken things around Christmas time and didn't bother fixing it till they got back or just after Christmas for whatever reason. After new years actually. See when Diana got her W range back and you will probably know when they will be making changes to zoe. > Of course that conversation is going to get weird, because there is no relation between the question you're asking and what is being answered. In this case, dodging an ability is not relevant counterplay when a champion is hard-CCed, and therefore cannot throw out things to dodge, but even if it were, Zoe's projectile is fast enough that if you're within its initial casting range, you're likely to get hit no matter how fast you are. Dodging isn't relevant when hard cc'd? The reality says otherwise. The reality says that she can shoot you while CC'd. It doesn't matter what you think should happen in regards to this question, what matters is what does happen. The only time I've noticed her attack being undodgeable is when she snipes you from out of nowhere because she happened to be within combo range of you which is really upsetting to watch. But it really doesn't surprise me when you have to keep moving to evade a support or mage's abilities. But seeing as this is the first answer I've seen i'm going to assume it really is just hard to dodge though i'm going to state that this is an assumption. I'm also going to mention again that riot doesn't acknowledge dodging skillshots as actual counterplay. The relation here is that I now have a complete picture to respond to. Her Q is to be assumed undodgable due to it's speed. It's speed also determines how fast it builds damage. The amount given was 2000 damage every 3 seconds or so on her only high damage ability which I will repeat is not impressive damage in the slightest assuming that's even a realistic figure. Her low winrate also supports this. The signs point to another form of counterplay and it would seem, based off what you've said, that it has nothing to do with dodging which I know now because I've asked "why can't you dodge?" > I don't think so, I think the second statement is merely a dismissal disguised as an inquiry. Framing accusations as a question does not make them any less accusatory, and whether or not you intended this, the question you asked did come off as demeaning, in exactly the way you mentioned. No the second statement is a question I want an answer to. If you don't want to answer it then piss off. If you do then go ahead. There's no need for your theories on my character. Maybe your response was just meant to ignite this barrage of insults and discredit someone because you couldn't come up with a proper complaint about a simple matter of toxic design. Maybe I should call this whole thing a salty whinefest and actually dismiss you. I don't need to ask you some useless veiled dismissal, a simple hastaggitgud would suffice. > And I quote: "Literally the only counterplay for this fucking ability _other than 'dodge it'_..." > > So the OP did not, in fact, state that disabling Zoe's casts was the only counterplay to the entire champion, or even the ability being discussed, even though reading only the first four words of their post might suggest that. This would also answer your "question" about dodging. Not only is your argument here a straw man, but the above quote shows your interest in dodging here is even less relevant to the conversation, as it has already been answered in the first line of the original post. this does not answer my question. I asked why can't you dodge it? Do I need to add "or is it easy to dodge" to protect your epeen? Its not a strawman, it's a question. The only strawman here is being made by the me in your wild, insecure imagination. > _No, it does not._ Please listen to what I am telling you. I just explained to you that _balance and design are two different things_: a champion's win rate and raw statistical strength is balance; their counterplay is a matter of design. You can pick the most toxic champion in the game and nerf them to the ground, and they'll end up having a terrible win rate while still maintaining the same unhealthy gameplay, which is why _balance and design are not the same thing, and one cannot be evaluated based on the other_. This process of nerfing unhealthy champions is also something that Riot has deliberately applied in several cases, such as Poppy and Urgot pre-VGU, Kalista, Yasuo and Azir, to name but a few. No, please listen to what i'm telling you and while youre at it cut the condescending shit. Balance and design are in fact different things but the problem here is that they are related and I am not assuming that you are all knowing nor that you have provided me with the needed details to come to any conclusion. Her winrate in this case is greater evidence of counterplay than the OP's and your own halfassed complaints. You suggest that the counterplay remaining is not really counterplay though she is in fact getting countered. I am not interested in your theory and suggestion so I would like solid fact. Actual claims. I have decided to start with the mentioned counterplay/non-counterplay/notadequate counterplay. An actual lack of counterplay would result in a 100% winrate, an unacceptable form of counterplay could result in an 0% winrate. Whatever she has.. it has wound up at a reasonable but low winrate. And so I return to "why can't you dodge it?" or in another way of putting it "what is wrong with dodging it?" It doesn't really matter why I asked, or if you want to know where i'm going with it you're free to ask that instead of acting as though you can't read simple English.
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > 1) This isn't a fundamental rule. Its only an understood pattern that already has various exceptions {{champion:99}} Cast animations are not channels and cannot be interrupted once initiated, as is the case with Lux's ult. This is a general rule as well. The instance being discussed, however, is one where a new input is registered and applied, even though this input occurs while the champion in question is having their casting is disabled, and after the disable is applied. Where else exactly does this happen in League? > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > 2) Zoe is not a normal champ... and thus probably doesn't adhere to normal logic > 3...10) ZOE IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL A) Define what constitutes a "normal" champion, and B) please explain how "Zoe is special" translates to "Zoe is not bound by typical rules of crowd control applied to her, in a manner that is clear to no-one". > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > Yes, clarity is nice and actually is a riot design pillar. But I'm talking about counterplay and asking why it has to be that specific counterplay Because that specific counterplay is more than justified: if you hit a champion with ability-disabling crowd control, and they aren't explicitly given the ability to cleanse or resist it, they should not be able to cast while disabled. Being able to ignore crowd control is not a listed strength of Zoe's, whose slipperiness and squishiness means she shouldn't be CC-resistant in the first place. As you pointed out, this interaction is detrimental to both her counterplay _and_ her clarity, with seemingly no good tradeoff to be made from it. Again, this kind of exception is something that requires justification _to exist_, because it breaks so hard from the norm, so the real question is: what is the justification for this interaction? What good does it bring? > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > When someone asks a question sometimes its better to try actually answering the question in your head to understand the question rather than just assuming they were implicitly giving some sort of order and dismissal. I completely agree, which is why I ask you not to dismiss my response to you and give an explanation of why you think Zoe being able to ignore CC is justified. You may claim to be "just asking questions", but your questions are themselves dismissive and only tangentially relevant to the topic of discussion. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > What you say I said was "just orbwalk" > What I actually said was "why can't you orbwalk" Please explain what meaningful difference exists between these two quotes. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > It was suggested that her only counterplay has been removed thus Rito must nerf! This thought on its own, as misguided as it is, is hardly complete nor is it at all supported by the reality. This was not what was suggested at all, this is a strawman you're pulling to try to make it seem unreasonable for standard counterplay to apply to a League champion. Where exactly did anyone here suggest that this was the only counterplay to Zoe? > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > Zoe's winrate isn't very good btw. So what? This isn't a discussion about her balance, this is a discussion about her design, or potentially a bug. Just because she's statistically weak doesn't mean she should be allowed to have unhealthy interactions in her kit. > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:35:43.146+0000) > > Anyways my post was not a suggestion to orbwalk, it was a question about why something cannot be dodged. Sure, but the topic of discussion has nothing to do with dodging skillshots, it's about a champion being able to cast abilities while having their ability to cast disabled. Your "question" had absolutely zero relevance to the subject matter, and whether you intended it to or not, came across as a disingenuous attempt to dismiss valid criticism.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T05:49:07.687+0000) > > Cast animations are not channels and cannot be interrupted once initiated, as is the case with Lux's ult. This is a general rule as well. The instance being discussed, however, is one where a new input is registered and applied, even though this input occurs while the champion in question is having their casting is disabled, and after the disable is applied. Where else exactly does this happen in League? doesn't matter. The point is that there are already multiple instances where ridiculous things will continue to happen regardless of whether or not you cc the opponent. This is not something strange or new. That zoe does this is weird looking but it is not as though she is the only one who could possibly ruin your day like this. Even if it does need to change it doesn't go against some fundamental rule > A) Define what constitutes a "normal" champion, and B) please explain how "Zoe is special" translates to "Zoe is not bound by typical rules of crowd control applied to her, in a manner that is clear to no-one". abnormal lore abnormal theme abnormal kit type abnormal.. what is even normal about her? Hell we just kindof assume its a 'she' even. She's actually pretty androgynous which is also abnormal > Because that specific counterplay is more than justified: if you hit a champion with ability-disabling crowd control, and they aren't explicitly given the ability to cleanse or resist it, they should not be able to cast while disabled. Being able to ignore crowd control is not a listed strength of Zoe's, whose slipperiness and squishiness means she shouldn't be CC-resistant in the first place. As you pointed out, this interaction is detrimental to both her counterplay _and_ her clarity, with seemingly no good tradeoff to be made from it. Again, this kind of exception is something that requires justification _to exist_, because it breaks so hard from the norm, so the real question is: what is the justification for this interaction? What good does it bring? correct, it is a probably unjustified interaction. It is toxic Many things are toxic and it doesn't require justification.. all of which is irrelevant The supposition is that this was her only counterplay and thus this counterplay she never had and somehow lost upon materialization.. perhaps because someone read about her and decided what reality would be too early.. this is false and does not help the case revolving around her strange interactions as a strange champion > I completely agree, which is why I ask you not to dismiss my response to you and give an explanation of why you think Zoe being able to ignore CC is justified. You may claim to be "just asking questions", but your questions are themselves dismissive and only tangentially relevant to the topic of discussion. they'd be more directly related if people didn't try so hard to derail and change the context of my words. When I ask "why can't you dodge" it means I want to know why you can't dodge. If you follow with "I can't dodge because cc stopping abilities is a fundamental law of nature" that conversation is going to get weird > Please explain what meaningful difference exists between these two quotes. The first is a dismissal The second is an inquiry The first is a demeaning suggestion that someone sucks and that orbwalking will fix the now downplayed problem The second is a question meant to be answered in a very simple manner The first contributes nothing to the conversation and even attempts to end it perhaps The second looks deeper into the nature of the situation before coming to any conclusion The first is what someone decided I said The second is what I actually said The first is to be responded to with whining and salty tears The second is to be answered without drama > This was not what was suggested at all, this is a strawman you're pulling to try to make it seem unreasonable for standard counterplay to apply to a League champion. Where exactly did anyone here suggest that this was the only counterplay to Zoe? read the first post > So what? This isn't a discussion about her balance, this is a discussion about her design, or potentially a bug. Just because she's statistically weak doesn't mean she should be allowed to have unhealthy interactions in her kit. but it does seem to imply that there is much more counterplay to her than suggested > Sure, but the topic of discussion has nothing to do with dodging skillshots, it's about a champion being able to cast abilities while having their ability to cast disabled. Your "question" had absolutely zero relevance to the subject matter, and whether you intended it to or not, came across as a disingenuous attempt to dismiss valid criticism. again, this is the difference between what was suggested and what was actually said. I asked a simple question and I have yet to receive an answer. It doesn't matter if you think i'm disingenuous or not, the attack on the criticism is not a fabrication of my own making. If you didn't like my question you could just ask me to rephrase or ask my why i'm asking it. Instead I was accused of something off the wall and given a bunch of shit talk
: Wrong. Nasus is a progressive CC and all future effects will disappear when you cleanse Wither. Additionally, as I recall cleansing Fizz's attached ultimate will cause it to drop. Regardless, the two CC are also completely independent in terms of operation. Even if he misses, the Knockup is a delayed CC. If he hits a target with the skillshot, it will apply a slow with the normal delayed knock up. Zoe does not follow either of these AND CertainlyT stated it was intended as a progressive CC (So Nasus should be the example set). If you cleanse the drowsy, you will still be affected by the sleep. That's equivalent to Nasus getting the remaining stacks of his slow even though you cleansed Wither partway through. Nasus does not follow that pattern which means Zoe shouldn't either.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0003000100010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T04:20:21.522+0000) > > Wrong. Nasus is a progressive CC and all future effects will disappear when you cleanse Wither. > > Additionally, as I recall cleansing Fizz's attached ultimate will cause it to drop. Regardless, the two CC are also completely independent in terms of operation. Even if he misses, the Knockup is a delayed CC. If he hits a target with the skillshot, it will apply a slow with the normal delayed knock up. > > Zoe does not follow either of these AND CertainlyT stated it was intended as a progressive CC (So Nasus should be the example set). > > If you cleanse the drowsy, you will still be affected by the sleep. That's equivalent to Nasus getting the remaining stacks of his slow even though you cleansed Wither partway through. Nasus does not follow that pattern which means Zoe shouldn't either. intended as a progressive cc isn't the same as "that's how it happened in the end" If Nasus's slow did anything after the slow it would still do it. Fizz's behaves more like Zoe's whatever the intent may have been.. and certainly T does not seem to get the final say in anything anyways, for example darius's ult or yasuo's ult.
CLG ear (NA)
: https://i.imgur.com/tcaumZR.jpg[]
> [{quoted}](name=CLG ear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=T2tjpsQ1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-15T03:46:27.443+0000) > > https://i.imgur.com/tcaumZR.jpg[] It will.. the problem is the speed of innovation and the cost to the individual i.e. the hurdle bottlenecking your gaming community in the future.
: There seems to be some confusion where people think removing NN will benefit them
The removal of net neutrality is like giving money to the rich and waiting for it to trickle down... it will start out with what seems like great progress and then it will slow down as people realize they actually want money and profits. Suddenly people pull out of their businesses and etcetc. What this means for you is that you will be tossed around like a ragdoll and suffer a lot as companies rearrange themselves and attack others and freak out and do random things to survive or whatever. Money will leave or enter the market in massive amounts at time and we will become dependent on groups like wallstreet to drag it out of the pockets of the ultra rich. **Anime and online gaming will ultimately become subject to the whims of people who do not even play games or watch anime...** ... not that this isn't already a problem ... not that the opposite is necessarily any better The problem is not the end result, it will be interesting and probably worth it. The problem will be the transition, during which you will all be worthless trash to be passed around and... tickled... like a ticklish person... who is paid... to be tickled. Nobody will really care much about you, just your net worth. The F2P market will probably git rek'd. The advancements that come from this system will probably not be of much worth to your own generation, you will just be a victim of its drawbacks while they swear each day we are making leaps and bounds. Even when the new tech comes from this it will probably start out as something for the mega rich to watch porn with or for the military to kill people.. or both. And then it will "trickle down" until you can afford it and its no longer anything worth even talking about.
Elipo (NA)
: And that's why peopple hate his champions (aka his freaking job) but weirdly still defend him while Riot just "ignores" all tgis crap. I call Nepotism.
> [{quoted}](name=Elipo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2017-12-14T03:02:17.008+0000) > > And that's why peopple hate his champions (aka his freaking job) but weirdly still defend him while Riot just "ignores" all tgis crap. I call Nepotism. I enjoy all his champs and at the same time I don't really play any of them I think
: And fighting Zoe is about as fun as driving pins into your nails. CT failed again what a surprise.
> [{quoted}](name=SweedishGunner,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00030004,timestamp=2017-12-14T12:49:36.173+0000) > > And fighting Zoe is about as fun as driving pins into your nails. CT failed again what a surprise. I had a lot of fun actually.. though I was playing azir at the time :V
: If Morg's shield is not allowed to block the sleep because "progressive CC", then cleanse/QSS should prevent sleep if used during Drowsy. This is exactly how it works on Nasus. Zoe does not need to be an exception.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00030001000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-14T01:06:00.281+0000) > > If Morg's shield is not allowed to block the sleep because "progressive CC", then cleanse/QSS should prevent sleep if used during Drowsy. > > This is exactly how it works on Nasus. Zoe does not need to be an exception. That's not how it works on nasus, nasus applies 2 cc simultaneously.. zoe does 2 that are separate. Zoe is actually more related to fizz. She gives a cc and a debuff. The debuff triggers a CC. Morg shield blocks cc not debuffs and the triggered effect of debuffs. There will still be a shark though I think fizzes may fall off since its silly and does this sort of thing. Zoe's doesn't have anything to fall off really.
: Like many things from CertainlyT, I think the answer is "because it wouldn't be fun for the user". If you play Zoe yourself, it would suck to throw a star behind you, then get stunned and it just fizzles without doing anything. Can't think of another reason why he intentionally coded that Morgana's shield doesn't block the sleep effect either. Do I think it is valid? Not really. Fun for the player is important, however, fun for the enemy is as well. For example, they decided in favour of the defender in special interaction cases for Urgots ult. I don't see this "it shouldn't be too frustrating for the enemy" in CertainlyT designs. I don't have anything against him, but how I see it, he puts the fun of the player of the champion over the enemy's.
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-14T00:02:34.667+0000) > > CertainlyT certainlyT's ult = turn checkers into chess
: Except preventing a champion from casting while inflicting spell-disabling CC on them isn't "additional" counterplay, it's default counterplay. It is one of the fundamental rules of how crowd control interacts with abilities in League, and the only way to bypass it is by explicitly using a cleansing or CC immunity effect on your champion. For an ability to ignore this kind of counterplay, not only would it require a _very_ good reason to do so, but it would also have to be made clear to everyone, so that everyone involved is aware of that special interaction. The above effect, if it is true, does neither. Telling people to orbwalk or "just dodge" the ability in response to this is, at best, completely irrelevant to what is being discussed, and at worst an attempt to excuse an inexcusable in-game interaction.
> [{quoted}](name=Teridax68,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-13T18:47:13.788+0000) > > Except preventing a champion from casting while inflicting spell-disabling CC on them isn't "additional" counterplay, it's default counterplay. It is one of the fundamental rules of how crowd control interacts with abilities in League 1) This isn't a fundamental rule. Its only an understood pattern that already has various exceptions {{champion:99}} 2) Zoe is not a normal champ... and thus probably doesn't adhere to normal logic 3...10) ZOE IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL > and the only way to bypass it is by explicitly using a cleansing or CC immunity effect on your champion. For an ability to ignore this kind of counterplay, not only would it require a _very_ good reason to do so, but it would also have to be made clear to everyone, so that everyone involved is aware of that special interaction. Yes, clarity is nice and actually is a riot design pillar. But I'm talking about counterplay and asking why it has to be that specific counterplay > The above effect, if it is true, does neither. Telling people to orbwalk or "just dodge" the ability in response to this is, at best, completely irrelevant to what is being discussed, and at worst an attempt to excuse an inexcusable in-game interaction. When someone asks a question sometimes its better to try actually answering the question in your head to understand the question rather than just assuming they were implicitly giving some sort of order and dismissal. What you say I said was "just orbwalk" What I actually said was "why can't you orbwalk" It was suggested that her only counterplay has been removed thus Rito must nerf! This thought on its own, as misguided as it is, is hardly complete nor is it at all supported by the reality. Zoe's winrate isn't very good btw. Anyways my post was not a suggestion to orbwalk, it was a question about why something cannot be dodged.
DarkPhil (NA)
: So I should keep playing a game I don't have fun with anymore? I should play a champion with an as-of-now 46% winrate because the top players in the world can win with low winrate champs? You make such a convincing argument. I'll probably play again after he gets buffed in the next patch, but we'll see if he's actually fixed. By the way, you still very clearly don't understand math or statistics if you think me playing League has any sort of influence on Riot's decision-making. I'm one player in an online game that has 80+ million players. A single data point isn't going to mean anything. You're either trolling, or flunked out of high school math. The one thing I hate about Riot is they nerf champions, but don't revert the nerfs once the champion becomes underpowered/underplayed. When they changed his ultimate to only give 200 HP instead of 300, it was such a massive hit to his early game that they tried making his late game better, but now he's just a mess that doesn't excel at anything and gets stomped by champions who outscale him super hard. It just doesn't seem fair to his identity.
> [{quoted}](name=DarkPhil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7i6mePq,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-14T05:51:22.834+0000) > > So I should keep playing a game I don't have fun with anymore? You don't have to.. but it probably wont help anything. Looking at it another way, what kind of idiot would try to balance a game around what does and doesn't make players of a single champ leave the game when he already wasn't that popular to begin with and most people probably will just switch to another champ which brings me to my next point > I should play a champion with an as-of-now 46% winrate because the top players in the world can win with low winrate champs? You make such a convincing argument. I'll probably play again after he gets buffed in the next patch, but we'll see if he's actually fixed. By the way, you still very clearly don't understand math or statistics if you think me playing League has any sort of influence on Riot's decision-making. I'm one player in an online game that has 80+ million players. A single data point isn't going to mean anything. You're either trolling, or flunked out of high school math. Sounds like bullshit to me. Here's some statistics for you. You, 1 in 80+ million players are part of the 1% that are expected to actively participate in the game's community making you 1 in 800,000+ and then of all of us you are part of the lets say hmmm... http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=bronze http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=silver http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=gold http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=plat http://champion.gg/champion/Renekton/Top?league=platplus looks like he's been hovering around 3-4% for the previous 4 patches so you're 1 of 4% or making you 1 in 32,000 assuming an equal number of players of each champ is represented here. Whatever the odds, for whatever reason you feel like throwing a fit and leaving the game is worth mentioning as feedback. Whatever your motivation, you've gained some sort of attention and have thus squandered some chance to actually open a discussion about your experiences and draw attention to your specific hypothetical 1 in 32,000 active community renekton players thus energizing others of this group to further increase the odds of discussion and investigation into specific renekton players. On top of this, if you were to gather the attention of a higher ranked member of this group it could even further raise interest and urgency. here's a statistics problem for you. Timmy doesn't like the color red, there are infinite possibilities that aren't considered to be red. What are the odds that a person picking a color for him will pick one he likes on the first try? Does it help if I mention that humans can only detect a finite number of different colors and shades and then tell you that Timmy likes blue? > The one thing I hate about Riot is they nerf champions, but don't revert the nerfs once the champion becomes underpowered/underplayed. When they changed his ultimate to only give 200 HP instead of 300, it was such a massive hit to his early game that they tried making his late game better, but now he's just a mess that doesn't excel at anything and gets stomped by champions who outscale him super hard. It just doesn't seem fair to his identity. Lol, I'm an ahri player. Ahri players don't have these problems because our players give feedback instead of salty tears for the most part. When riot causes an issue we press them for changes instead of quitting. Some of us quit yes.. nobody cares about them. Also 300 to 200 hp doesn't even seem important considering the rune changes. Hell there's a rune to give you 100hp for the duration of the game from level 1 lol.
Hibeki (NA)
: 2000+ damage on a 3 second cd sustain damage trash?
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2017-12-13T17:43:12.086+0000) > > 2000+ damage on a 3 second cd sustain damage trash? correct
Hibeki (NA)
: what the fuck are you talking about.
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-13T17:17:00.072+0000) > > what the fuck are you talking about. I'm talking about why you need the additional counterplay. You didn't really go into detail about this and she sucks against sustained damage once it starts melting her. As expected but still you never really said much about this. that's what the fuck i'm talking about and I think its pretty obvious that's what the fuck I'm talking about.
Hibeki (NA)
: 1. Because its a basic mechanic in the game. Having to individually code every single ability to not override stun and zhonya effects is pointless and redundant. Therefore its reasonable to expect that the one exception was done purposefully, especially on a champion designed by a person who has made many other characters who have many many 'exceptions' to their kits. 2. If you want to go into an AI game right now, and hit me with a stun while my Q is out, I can recast it. She doesnt need unpredictability, this is just an excuse to have less counterplay.
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-13T15:55:25.826+0000) > > 1. Because its a basic mechanic in the game. Having to individually code every single ability to not override stun and zhonya effects is pointless and redundant. > > Therefore its reasonable to expect that the one exception was done purposefully, especially on a champion designed by a person who has made many other characters who have many many 'exceptions' to their kits. > > 2. If you want to go into an AI game right now, and hit me with a stun while my Q is out, I can recast it. She doesnt need unpredictability, this is just an excuse to have less counterplay. excuse? Anyways, even if it was a mistake riot very probably knows about this and intentionally left it there for data purposes. Also thematically zoe may be able to do things that shouldn't make much sense, same with lulu. None of which actually hurts her counterplay. Her counterplay isn't that you can dodge her skillshot. Riot doesn't even acknowledge that as actual counterplay. Her counterplay is that her sustained damage is trash and her escapes are situational trash that are sometimes less trashy trash than normal trash. I'd like to emphasize again, that even if you could dodge every skillshot Riot in the past has not acknowledged this as legitimate counterplay.
Hibeki (NA)
: Why can Zoe recast Q while stunned or even zhonyad?
why not just dodge it though? Did you realize that building attack speed and actually knowing how to orb walk can help you dodge skillshots more easily? It lowers the animation time for your autoattacks so you can un-root yourself after every aa faster.
: Can we STOP with the mass lies about zoe?
enough with the lies! "Zoe matters" bs there is only ahri #AhriFancultBanner
Bultz (NA)
: Long range champions need a damage nerf
melees have the advantage in a forced fight. If you want to win as melee you just need to actually play with some direction and strategy. Same goes for ranged but not if melee players aren't doing anything intelligent. Melees also have better stats and will be the ones that can end games without the help of minions and the entire team protecting them. Melee's also have better and lower cooldown CC and tend to have more. The exception is mages who tend to be more reliant on abilities rather than sustained damage. Ranged doesn't need a nerf, you just need a new perspective and you need to understand that the rune changes have damaged like 50% of the champion base and not just melee champs.
DarkPhil (NA)
: He's not strong enough for anyone who has a basic understanding of math or statistics... apparently you don't. I'm not going to waste my time playing a game that isn't fun for me.
> [{quoted}](name=DarkPhil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7i6mePq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-10T01:44:48.646+0000) > > He's not strong enough for anyone who has a basic understanding of math or statistics... apparently you don't. I'm not going to waste my time playing a game that isn't fun for me. If you don't want to play games you don't like you shouldn't start them. Shen had a 45% winrate when he was dominating the meta in korea. Ezreal had a 45% winrate when he was dominating the meta in worlds years back. Don't lecture me about statistics if you can't even understand that winrate doesn't determine playability or even whether or not your champion is functional ...especially when his most successful runes and most common runes don't even come close to matching. If you had a basic understanding of math and statistics you wouldn't be giving me shit for my post. There is nothing incorrect about it, you have valuable renekton feedback to give and instead of shoving it down riots throat you are threatening to run away and take any future data with you. Even the champs you switch to from renekton has some importance to fixing renekton. Riot actually keeps up with this as well at times
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jFWzNhKm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:29:26.981+0000) > > There is no need for protection. > > The strong will rise and the weak will perish. This is the way of the rift. The strong will keep playing and the people below level 30 constantly getting matched against platinums or higher are gonna leave the game because getting stomped isn't what most people would call fun. > Learn what you can and be thankful for your chances to compete with those stronger than you, this gives you the opportunity to test your ideas and learn of new ones... or realize your inability to do either... There isn't much to learn when the game ends in less than 20 minutes. I am all for learning from your mistakes, don't get me wrong here, but your advice is horrible in the scenario OP is talking about.
> [{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jFWzNhKm,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-12-10T11:47:00.399+0000) > > The strong will keep playing and the people below level 30 constantly getting matched against platinums or higher are gonna leave the game because getting stomped isn't what most people would call fun. this is not a game for people who can't handle getting stomped. If you are consistently losing against plats you will eventually never see another plat for months.. nothing to worry about there > There isn't much to learn when the game ends in less than 20 minutes. I am all for learning from your mistakes, don't get me wrong here, but your advice is horrible in the scenario OP is talking about. Nothing horrible about it. That the game is ending in 20 minutes is actually helpful to one's development as a player. Honestly, if the game is only half as long as a normal match and you can't figure out what portion of the game to focus on then you are terrible and deserve to stay terrible if you aren't willing to even try and learn from that. Literally all you have to do is remember what happened and why it seemed to work. This isn't like tekken where noobs are getting pwned by hidden frames of spaghetti code and invincibility that make no sense on a regular basis and you even get all the data from the match and sometimes even video if you like. If you can't learn from it you have no one to blame but yourself.
Raije (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=woX7JZH9,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-10T01:28:55.163+0000) > > Who do you like to play and where do you like to play them? > > Zoey and yasuo are bad for you but for me they are candy.. snacks for my precious ahri > > Which minion to kill first and why > What laning strategy to pick > Under what condition do I expect to go to base > What to do if the jungler ganks > > As I search for ahri pronz I ponder the endless possibilities to better myself with. > > As a tactical player and analytical person I love playing against these champs even though I rarely play as them if at all. > As someone who plays ahri a lot people often ask how I can hope to understand champions if I don't play the champ.. but I do understand, I am an analytical person... > > I don't need to understand yasuo that well to understand why he is pushing mid so feverishly... all I need is a counterstrategy > Zoey is reliant on angles and play setups win and has a long range she benefits from her range from you as well... Then i'll rush her at a confusing range... > Old kassadin was oppressive for a second but because I am an analytical person I realized he couldn't afford to trade after that... so I had the balls to counterattack one fo the most feared assassins in the game with less than 50% hp left > > For someone like me these champs are the reason this game is worth playing > > Because when your champion is the greatest thing since the internet the only way they can rise further is to pile the opposing trash beneath them > > #AhriFancultBanner Wow, that was a lot of cringe in one post. Also, I'm assuming your posting from your smurf...
> [{quoted}](name=RaijeTofJ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=woX7JZH9,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-10T19:38:54.132+0000) > > Wow, that was a lot of cringe in one post. Also, I'm assuming your posting from your smurf... Nothing cringy about the truths of this world. I suppose this can be called my smurf, yes. Regardless, just as there is a champ for everyone there are opponent types for everyone. Balance in all things as they say
: Eternally Silver, Why?
in a sentence, why shouldn't you be silver?
: Some Volibear buffs to make him no longer trash
absolutely not, just start building damage on voli again
jannit0r (NA)
: Best lane to camp in low elo?
bot, because there are two people to kill and a bad player will come to save them after they are already dead. Then you can go get a free dragon on top of that
DarkPhil (NA)
: Quitting the game until top lane/Renekton is fixed
"Renekton isn't strong enough for me so i'm just gonna stop providing Rito with data to fix him with."~TheOP
: > [{quoted}](name=ScissorsNstuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jFWzNhKm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:29:26.981+0000) > > There is no need for protection. > > The strong will rise and the weak will perish. This is the way of the rift. > > Learn what you can and be thankful for your chances to compete with those stronger than you, this gives you the opportunity to test your ideas and learn of new ones... or realize your inability to do either. There is no benefit from losing a game in 20 minutes against people who are significantly better than you.
> [{quoted}](name=SkumbagAdam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jFWzNhKm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T01:18:40.882+0000) > > There is no benefit from losing a game in 20 minutes against people who are significantly better than you. This alone proves that someone better than you can end the game in 20 minutes. From this you can conclude that where you must improve does not begin at 21 minutes nor 20 minutes unless you are just losing by some last second fluke So what then? At what point in your games against these people does what you do begin to go down hill and where can you realistically improve. Perhaps it is even as early as 30 seconds.. BUT WAIT! isn't that strange since you don't normally even interact with the other team unless they are being really aggressive that early.. so then now we have perhaps 1.5 - 15 minutes in perhaps? What is it about your earlygame that is such trash??? No matter how you look at it they aren't just winning because they have a higher rank than you and get some sort of special advantage. They are kicking your butt because they are doing something that you aren't. example in your last match I can see you were playing kalista and the only one who placed less wards than you (on either team) was your support (lololol) who was playing sona. Considering how hard their jungle rek'd you and the dragon and your terrible jungler earlygame perhaps playing around a stronger jungler is where you should start your self reflection
: Zoey and Yasuo really put me off playing league
Who do you like to play and where do you like to play them? Zoey and yasuo are bad for you but for me they are candy.. snacks for my precious ahri Which minion to kill first and why What laning strategy to pick Under what condition do I expect to go to base What to do if the jungler ganks As I search for ahri pronz I ponder the endless possibilities to better myself with. As a tactical player and analytical person I love playing against these champs even though I rarely play as them if at all. As someone who plays ahri a lot people often ask how I can hope to understand champions if I don't play the champ.. but I do understand, I am an analytical person... I don't need to understand yasuo that well to understand why he is pushing mid so feverishly... all I need is a counterstrategy Zoey is reliant on angles and play setups win and has a long range she benefits from her range from you as well... Then i'll rush her at a confusing range... Old kassadin was oppressive for a second but because I am an analytical person I realized he couldn't afford to trade after that... so I had the balls to counterattack one fo the most feared assassins in the game with less than 50% hp left For someone like me these champs are the reason this game is worth playing Because when your champion is the greatest thing since the internet the only way they can rise further is to pile the opposing trash beneath them #AhriFancultBanner
: that way you can trade with the trash for guaranteed ahri.
> [{quoted}](name=Mos Deadly98,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tAZEmHgQ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T01:00:11.035+0000) > > that way you can trade with the trash for guaranteed ahri. Ahri is always guaranteed I wish they'd give us something like an arcade game to play using blue essence as tokens or free passes to another one of riots game(s) for a million blue essence (badum tisss) #AhriFancultBanner
: I wouldn't expect the numbers to be very high. But that's precisely why I didn't put in any numbers in the first place. Is that the only gripe you have?
> [{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtEIAs3G,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:34:59.737+0000) > > I wouldn't expect the numbers to be very high. But that's precisely why I didn't put in any numbers in the first place. > > Is that the only gripe you have? .000001 damage is 10 damage too much yes, there are only two issues and the latter is just aesthetically tacky but not something worth an outburst. Also this suggests that lissandra should be rewarded for bulling people by forcing them to run from her after hitting them. Something about this very uncomfortable and I think it should be more the opposite. I'd honestly prefer if she just got CDR for building mana. 1000 mana = 10% or something. After 40% or whatever the max is she should get an additional bonus that is useful situationally. Keep in mind that most of the reason lissandra needs help to begin with is because people don't abuse her properly. If you buff her she will hose the living shit out of anything she actually does counter to the point it will be flat out toxic.
: soo. i was just vs a riven in lane who was very obviously scripting...
The player is a frequent riven and cait player. He doesn't seem to have played riven recently though.. its like he just used his "hacks" against you specifically. This riven player lost 6 of his last 10 matches He's level 13 You were playing full glass kayle You are hardly a kayle main with a mastery score of 3829 You don't seem to have ever played riven as you have 0 mastery on her You took Precision Fleet Footwork Triumph Legend: Alacrity Coup De Grace sorcery The Brazen Perfect Celerity Gathering Storm in otherwords you were fluttering around like a fairy and somehow managed to get in a fight with riven earlygame who was built and is designed to win earlygame against champs like kayle. You were complete glass You built complete glass You fed Your champ doesn't even have skillshots or hard cc, exactly how sophisticated is this scripting you're talking about and how does a level 11 player recognize such high precision positioning because that's what you'd use to exploit this situation... unless they weren't scripting and you just got snowballed on so hard that you just realized how badly one can get snowballed on by a snowballer champ during a snowballing ironically during a wave of snowstorms ಠ_ಠ
Ralanr (NA)
: Can you explain in more detail on why you thought the Riven was scripting? Perhaps even load a video of the match?
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6f9GQ7qo,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:10:06.860+0000) > > Can you explain in more detail on why you thought the Riven was scripting? Perhaps even load a video of the match? according to lolking this riven "alien mouts" can be watched playing live http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/53435757/Alien%20Mouts#/live-game
: yep. It's pretty insane TBH. He totally deserves the nerf.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3bQTNkZ,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T23:50:07.306+0000) > > yep. > > It's pretty insane TBH. He totally deserves the nerf. glacial augment needs to be nerfed before people find a way to REALLY abuse it {{champion:102}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:82}}
: I'VE FOUND THE SECRET FORMULER! What are some builds that you guys find hilarious?
{{champion:51}} {{item:3009}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3031}} {{item:3085}} {{item:3071}} for when people start owning your team with silly poppy builds
: Normal Matchmaking is a Nightmare Right now.
There is no need for protection. The strong will rise and the weak will perish. This is the way of the rift. Learn what you can and be thankful for your chances to compete with those stronger than you, this gives you the opportunity to test your ideas and learn of new ones... or realize your inability to do either...
: Then again if youve been playing for 7 years and dont own all the champions... well what the hell are you doing in the game man?
> [{quoted}](name=Mos Deadly98,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tAZEmHgQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:23:10.582+0000) > > Then again if youve been playing for 7 years and dont own all the champions... well what the hell are you doing in the game man? Why would I want to collect unworthy trash? All I need is more ahri... #AhriFancultBanner
: not that rediculus. her moves are supposed to be telegraphed now. not split second full combo 1 shot
> [{quoted}](name=Bradley Dragonia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6f9GQ7qo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:16:55.095+0000) > > not that rediculus. her moves are supposed to be telegraphed now. not split second full combo 1 shot ... I mean they are pretty telegraphed but once she starts hitting you you're gonna die unless you went in prepared who were you playing when she did this by the way
: An idea for Lissandra's passive...
Lissandra does not need more damage. She is meant to be a low damage control mage and needs to remain as such.
: Unpopular opinion: The new blue essence is better in almost ever way. For free to play anyway.
Its better if you just started playing yesterday. If you've been playing for 7 years its not so great.. unless you keep releasing skins that can be bought with blue essence without the RNG issue of the chests like with muh ahri chromaz
: they removed her emote canceling that allowed her to 1 shot in half a second. so she was obviously scripting and i hope she gets a perma ban. that was disgusting to play against
> [{quoted}](name=Bradley Dragonia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6f9GQ7qo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:15:04.722+0000) > > they removed her emote canceling that allowed her to 1 shot in half a second. so she was obviously scripting and i hope she gets a perma ban. that was disgusting to play against emote canceling? I mean, that's abusing a bug in the system if it is what you make it sound like but to suggest that this is "scripting" is a bit weird. Scripting is where you have a bunch of code executed to control the character for you to do things a human couldn't possibly do. Bursting you down in a split second is something any faceroller could do.. So are you saying she somehow cancels commands with emotes or what?
: Why do Koreans come to NA after worlds?
ranked season resets after worlds a high rank makes your junk look big people will pay money in korea as a regular practice to get an edge over the competition so a market for this exists people in America will pay to get their rank raised so the ladies will be like "wow" as they look into the camera like in the movies because everyone loves a winner and the Korean market for rank raising has no real competition in the states where such a market does not really thrive because it takes a lot more than one or two games to get enough clients
Ralanr (NA)
: Can you explain in more detail on why you thought the Riven was scripting? Perhaps even load a video of the match?
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6f9GQ7qo,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:10:06.860+0000) > > Can you explain in more detail on why you thought the Riven was scripting? Perhaps even load a video of the match? ^^ he put a question mark.. but its not really a request. One of you needs to be investigated. ._. do it!
: soo. i was just vs a riven in lane who was very obviously scripting...
how do you know they were scripting vs just very well practiced
lbon (EUW)
: Riven Bullshit
which one are you even complaining about. Also how long does Q - AA - Q - AA - Q - AA take at level 1...
MirrowFox (EUW)
: She's fine but she isn't a kite mage and neither and assassin
> [{quoted}](name=MirrowFox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A09BK981,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-12-07T15:59:07.232+0000) > > She's fine but she isn't a kite mage and neither and assassin I'm really hoping they bring back that experimental item from the brawlers game. The spellbook that gives the movespeed. Ahri should be like a mage carry like azir but more mobile
: Any reference as to why Cutting ManaRegen Growth and increasing Base mana regen is midlane specific
Because part of the problem is that mages were kindof unrelenting once they got their resources and it was better to create some actual gating around which they could be balanced and thus everything else could be balanced as well. The goal was to make mana regen a "choice" so to speak and balance it against damage, movement speed, etc. Back in the day you could just basically skip the earlygame challenges on some champs and just try to make it to some snowballing point which was bad for the fun factor. {{champion:131}} {{item:1011}} lel, earlygame complete!
MirrowFox (EUW)
: Ahri feels bad to play with and to play against.
Ahri is fine for the most part. She just needs a new solution to long term fights she doesn't win with ease OR she needs to be rewarded more for "winning" without actually killing if you don't want to treat her as an assassin (you == whoever or rito in this case) Basically what ahri needs is a new item or a way to take towers down faster or she just needs something like a neverending stack system.. something. She is otherwise actually really healthy By the way take mage runes primary and support runes as her secondary unless you are faker and can just win with any champ with any setup because trololo faker
Weedbro (NA)
: ahri's charm shoudl force champions to play with themselves
> [{quoted}](name=Weedbro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A09BK981,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-07T14:14:49.101+0000) > > ahri's charm shoudl force champions to play with themselves APPROVED
: The trap is set. Now we wait for Ahris to appear.
> [{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A09BK981,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-07T14:10:46.598+0000) > > The trap is set. Now we wait for Ahris to appear. You were expecting ahris... BUT ITS ME!!! CEREAL
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ScissorsNstuff

Level 30 (NA)
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