PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
I think ER needs to be made into an attack speed stat item with its mana regen passive and split into a crit option and a bruiser counterpart crit ER: zeal+hammer+mana crystal and similar offensive stats as suggested PD with slightly higher AD lets use 30 for this thought bruiser ER: bf sword+stinger+mana crystal and increased attack speed+attack damage compared to crit ER
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 14
Considering the design success of how blue kayn's passive works has there been a thought about making some of the %penetration items/kit mechanics into some type of % damage inversion, either inverting a portion of the damage or or a bonus about of and inverted damage type? For example void staff making a % of magic damage into physical instead.
Rioter Comments
: A game where your team ffs a losing game successfully at 15 mins feels better than winning.
Play PVE, avoid any and every fight/soft int if you are going to be held hostage.
Meddler (NA)
: Potentially, It's on our list of items that aren't in great states, as with Rageblade/Edge of Night it's something we're planning to look at, but wouldn't want to make any promises beyond that yet. As a side note this version of Essence Reaver was designed to be good for fighters as well as marksmen. Even on fighters like the ones you list though we're not really seeing it perform all that strongly. It's a reasonable choice at times, and will feel very strong when it really pops off, but doesn't seem to be out of line with other items they could be choosing instead on average.
On essence reaver I think switching its stat weighing with SR is better. so SR can mimic IE build path and ER can have a stinger+bf sword+mana crystal. For EoN I think it's health component item should be out of catalyst with EoN of course having that effect. With the ER suggested change it will give AD champs of many types have an avenue for managing their mana. For rageblade I think that the bonus AP/AD scaling needs to be removed from the item. That is a large part of the reason it has been a problem in all of it's most recent changes. Effectively taking over trinity force's ball o' stats design.
Meddler (NA)
: These are all relative to other marksmen. Primary weaknesses intended: * Low range (has to take more risk to deal damage both in lane and afterwards) * Soft lane * Item reliant Secondary weaknesses: * Low utility/no CC * Low AOE damage against champions
An idea for locking out her ability to unlock all skills so easily is to have 2 tiers of upgrades for each and not being able to upgrade a new tier 1 until the current one is made to tier 2 while unifying the requirements for unlocks (100 ap OR ad OR as for any unlock instead of the stat being tied to a certain skill). That will make it so at best there are only 2 unlocks at least and further enforce the point of being item reliant.
: Riot, when will you guys explore Zilean and Icathia in more depth? Before its fall.
Maybe one of the 2 new champs will be the source to expand on that lore. Since it seems anyone that survived till now will have some type of extreme strength (jax in general, zilean being a time master of sorts).
: Illaoi's E and Poison effects
Ya that is how I found out the way the illaoi vs darius match up goes with his passive....
Velasan (NA)
: Interesting ideas. Want to point out though that Cinderhulk has had it's own issues, particularly because it is so heavily tied to how fast tanks can clear (and their clears are usually a lot slower without it). There was also other iterations before Cinderhulk including one that just gave a huge amount of HP and I think it had CDR on it and no damage. Warrior is indeed boring... though it is also one of the most efficient items for AD so it's hard to say if that is good or bad. Many AD junglers just want to finish their item as quickly as possible and move on to their tri force or other associated damage item. I would have agreed you with on Runic, but the current iteration is basically just the mirror version to warrior in that provides damage + AP and CDR. Bloodrazer I feel is just straight up underrated. Several champions do use it (Xin sometimes uses it, Udyr can use it, Yi uses it etc and it's actually good on Warwick for those rare cases you want to go heavier on the damage than tank), and it makes junglers very good at taking objectives quickly. You are right that they could be more interesting, but they also need to be efficient items for jungling, so it's hard to place that on the same item (i.e. one that scales in an interesting way vs one you can just get quickly with required stats). Good read though.
For runic really the only thing that stops it from being a bland stat stick, is the proc. On the last point about the balance of a good first item rush and good scaling option. I would like to hope that these cases fulfill that well enough and that I put the proper amount of thought to not making them all problem cases in one way or the other. I do know that they are weaker than lane rush potential comparisons (as I pointed out in the edit), and overall roughly similar to the power of the current offerings as a first item rush with the only real factor issue being the strength of the scaling for the changes compared to current.
Alzon (NA)
: I agree with you when you say that the damage-oriented jungle items need an overhaul. As for your suggested enchantments in particular, I believe all three of them are ridiculously powerful and would be 100% poached by laners. Every damage-dealer would build Smite. I do like some of your ideas, though. Here are my takes: {{item:1400}} Still builds out of {{item:3133}} +30% Base Attack Damage +10% CDR +10% Movement Speed when moving toward nearby enemy champions {{item:1402}} Still builds out of {{item:3802}} +70 AP +300 Mana Haste UNIQUE Passive: Spellcasts reduce the cooldown of your other abilities by 0.5 seconds. Cannot be triggered by the same ability more than twice within 8 seconds. {{item:1416}} Still builds out of {{item:1043}} +35% Attack Speed UNIQUE Passive: Deal bonus on-hit magic damage equal to 100% of your permanent bonus Attack Speed modifier.
I think yours would be much more of a problem honestly. The warrior would way to strongly favor the sheen/total AD junglers, but hard nerf the assassins spell damage since most scale with bonus rather than base or total AD. For runic although it is an interesting one and is an idea for empowering the more purely spell based kits, as Champion Skin said it scales too well with CDR. Also the 8 second limiter means for basically all AP champs it is simply translated into removing a flat 1-1.5 seconds off all basic spell CD's but inflating the effective CDR for ults meaning it too heavily favors ult based AP champs. For bloodrazor it would follow the similar goals of allowing champs to be less restricted in their builds because of the attack speed limiter, as well as allowing the option for building crit. But it still has some issues in that it would still, although reduced, maintain the issue of wasted stats/gold value from items. It is a heavy handed approach to limit the vast majority of attack speed junglers having built in attack speed steroids that does not feel good to have to exist as a limiter, not only them but the support champs that also empower the attack speed of others will have parts of their kits wasted on those that would build this suggestion. Not to mention this would be weaker than the current bloodrazor of almost all current build types for all points of the game.
: {{item:1400}} should probably build out of {{item:3077}}. Tiamat's passive is good on all melee AD junglers. Ranged ones might have an issue, but graves wasn't intended to be a jungler in his rework. To be honest, IDK why riot doesn't let ranged champs use the passive. As for {{item:1402}}, I'm not sure what to do with it. Part of me thinks riot should let it be built out of {{item:3057}} and then give it an adaptive stat bonus so AP champs and AD champs could get it. A second option would be {{item:3916}}, ap junglers would have less stats with that item, but more penetration. {{item:1416}} I like, but I play Shyvana when I jungle.
For warrior... I can empathize with your thought but we know that riot would never do that. I made the mistake of not putting forth thoughts of why the suggested changes are good/better. For runic.... I have a very strong agreement with you on that. There are a notable amount of junglers with strong synergy with sheen who would love be able to build it first and rush a complete upgrade. This would be a new point though of adding new jungle enchants rather than just replacing. It should be better holistically, but I feel that it wouldn't be enough of a priority to be put into riots time budget to do both, so best to stick with replacing. Nothing to say about the bloodrazor point.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: We're seeing mid Taliyah perform a bit weaker than jungle Taliyah, particularly at low MMR (gap's a lot smaller at high MMR). We're happy to see her getting jungle play, especially given she brings something pretty distinct to the jungle role as a mage. Would like to see her do a bit better in mid as well though, so whenever we need to do balance work on her we'll look at ways to narrow that gap. Her mid performance is pretty close already to well performant though, especially in higher MMRs, so not aiming for urgent or large changes overall. In terms of what players are looking for from Taliyah, definitely get that liking a champ in one position and seeing the majority of their play shift to another can be pretty frustrating if you're not a fan of that new position. At the same time though we want to balance that around trying to keep the evolution of the game where possible and recognizing that it can make a lot of other players enjoy a champ who weren't previously. For quite a while Taliyah was one of our least played champs, despite being a really strong, or even really dominant, pick in mid. We've seen a lot more people engage with her, playing a significant number of games each, since she started getting play in the jungle and feel that's important to acknowledge too.
It really feels like riot throws at a dart board for choosing which champs get supported in off roles and which get hard gutted out when they see viability in any role out of the riot enforced choice.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 5
Has there ever been any discussion about bloodrazor? There are a number of people that feel that the item is not in a good place. Right now there is really only one outlier user who uses this item (yi), and even still has a strong argument to go with another option. Literally everyone else who in theory synergizes well with it prefers to go with a different enchant. I think this item needs another ground up work, even more than runic echoes needed one it its previous update. Another jungle item note being warrior. This item should follow a closer pattern to the other jungle upgrades in how they encourage building the main stat: cinderhulk -> %health increase, runic -> AP scaling proc, bloodrazor -> on hits generally scaling well with AS. Warrior in the past most often had the issue of having a "bruiser style" be too good because it is so stat efficient, to let champs build only that then go into straight tank. I know there was a post saying there is no intention to make any major jungle changes in the near-ish future but this is an issue that has existed for basically the whole of warrior's existence, and there has yet to be a healthy AS jungle item to be made yet.
: Preseason Development Update 1
I thought it was more appropriate to ask here instead of nexus blitz thread. What could we expect to have strong considerations being brought over to SR in preseason. We already know of the fighter items (spear, atmas) but what else could be considered? I would personally like to see that starter jungle item idea replace our current SR option, of simply giving the combined tooth and nail effect but in a mini form.
: Jax and Xin are honestly terrible examples for rageblade right now, since the former doesn't build it often and the latter doesn't build it at all. (Also, Jax was meant to be a {{item:1416}} jungler himself, but usually opts for {{item:1401}} instead.) Bloodrazor itself isn't an item I see to be an issue, given out of _FOURTY-SEVEN_ Junglers, only {{champion:19}}, {{champion:102}}, {{champion:11}}, and {{champion:29}} use it as their primary pickup (according to OP.GG). That leaves 43 junglers using the other three enchants as their most common pickup, which is 91% of the jungle roster. That's not to say the item _itself_ may be at fault (given attack speed junglers are pretty rare now, and the ones that currently exist for the most part appear to prefer Warrior and Cinderhulk with other items that give attack speed for various reasons), but... barring Yi, it doesn't feel like a super powerful spike.
You honestly put it in a much better way than me. I have complained about this more than once on the boards, and have simply given up putting effort into properly writing out the thoughts since it is rather clear how little care there is about it.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 29
On the ekko point, how about jungle targeted buff?
: Thoughts on Frustrating Abilities: Unbreakable & Windwall
A point to bring up for those who are on the side of defending yas. Zed has before had to have a dedicated mini update targeted specifically at making him less annoying. Also recently pointed out the intent of gameplay changes for zoe targeted at making her less annoying that is being worked on right now. So there is complete merit in saying parts of his kit is BS and needs to be shifted around. I also agree with the idea brought many times of pairing his shield into his windwall together. I think it should work similar to TK's grey health/shield. So while wind wall is off cooldown his shield wont be available. Other points of adjustments that can be worth thinking about can be to find a way to give an item stat scaling to his shield instead of per level, add having moving AND attacking charging up his flow so it charges a little faster than now, make his wind wall block in the same way as now up to a certain amount of damage. Another point that is complained as a BS point about him is that his ult puts him in the safest point out of towers for tower dives. That is the biggest change that would make people feel not slighted by laning against him. Another thing that can be considered is making able to be CC'd out of his out like WW with his ult after landing. Again I will reiterate annoyance targeted changes are not wrong points to bring up and even if they result in being a net nerf, balancing can be done after to bring him into a better state after.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 18
You all REALLY need to have a proper talk with the irelia community. There is a clear showing that you are being headless chickens about what to do with her. There has been little to no communication for dealing with the tuning of this champion. Making an announcement that you intend to go with despite the feedback otherwise (would have thought the lesson was learned after the mess of dynamic Q) is not communication with us, that is communication at us. Repeat noting of the issue that is bloodrazor. Repeating the issue of the need to modernize the sheen items.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 13
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 11
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items. There are also quite a number of complaints about how badly irelia was balanced even from ICU......
abdul569 (EUW)
: What if Duskblade's damage had a stacking mechanic when unseen that decays when unseen?
The fist thing i think needs to be done is the ICD of the proc.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 6
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items. There are also quite a number of complaints about how badly irelia was balanced even from ICU......
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 4
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items. There are also quite a number of complaints about how badly irelia was balanced even from ICU......
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 29
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items. There are also quite a number of complaints about how badly irelia was balanced even from ICU......
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 22
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items.
: {{champion:11}} {{item:1419}} {{item:3124}}
SmashinBob (EUNE)
: Bloodrazor is not bad, works well on Draven, Jhin, and some others. I think that a lot of the champions that could actually use this item havent figured it out yet. But basically anything that weaves in beetween AA would be good with it, its decent as a 1 item spike aswell, but i think that this item actually works better on some non adcs rather than being an adc or crit item build.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, straight AP's going to be fairly hard to make satisfying or even noticeable (hence 'or ally buff good on AP users' in the post above). With you that things like Nami E or Pix do a better job of buffing functionality in ways user and beneficiary enjoy for the same amount of power stats could be.
Why not make an item that has the support gain bonus stats based off the stats of the APC
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 20
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit. Can something be done about bloodrazor. Even for the users that have the best synergy with it it is statistically the lesser option compared to the other jungle items.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 15
Since there is much more time now I guess that means we can expect more items that fighters use to get updated and properly modernized. Like the sheen upgrades, black cleaver could really have it's shred replaced with an AD stacker similar to rageblade, rageblade can hopefully finally not be so drastically better for majority of the ranged users compared to melee users with synergy, may even be time to remove the phantom hit.
Meddler (NA)
: Sterak's change doesn't seem to have affected them much at all, somewhat surprisingly. Yorick's noticeably stronger, given we also buffed him in the same patch. That means we'll be going with larger nerfs than we'd previously been thinking for Irelia (had been counting on Sterak's/Triforce combo loss to carry some of the power removal). Not sure about balance changes for any of the others yet, nothing currently in testing at least.
I guess you are going to ignore that there is a reason why there was such a drastic change in her play rate of her off role midlane suddenly becoming her main role. Irelia struggles too much against other bruisers early and on top of straight losing to them early, they can delay her mid enough that they beat her at that point to. This can be seen by the point of almost all of her top lane counters are now suddenly not only doing better overall but even better than before against her with the steraks change. This is comboing on top of the fact that you as a team blatantly lied about supporting her in her off builds/roles. When you functionally removed her from being jungle viable and are planning to hurt her AP builds too which haven't shown to be out of line.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 14
I do recognize that Irelia is seen as an issue in the solo lanes (maybe not as much after the recent steraks change). Something that has bothered me for a long time and the issue returned itself looking at Aatrox pre-release tuning is the heavy handed forcing her out of jungle viability, in the similar fashion that AP off-builds were made to be the universally strategically lesser choice on her. A question I brought up before to address her power issue that i think is still valid even now is why not completely remove the damage from her ult and spread that power into the rest of her kit. I have had light suggestions of compensating all the build options through improving the utilities (E cc length, Ult cc length, ult wall length, ult cd, q heal, etc). Another more specific list of suggestions is to shift the power into the base kit through adding 5-10% tAD ratio to the Q, adding a mechanic that makes the damage applied through Q splash with the splash radius scaling with AP, and lastly adding a passive to the ult to add base AD equal to a flat+%AP per rank of ult. On the note of the fighter items. The timing of the pulling of it was EXTREMELY poor. It takes a huge hit to any attempt of working with the community to add to the game. Since the items were pulled and now there is even more increased time to do more comprehensive work on them as well as the knowledge that rageblade is going to be seeing work too; I think the 3 items trinity force, black cleaver and rageblade could be added to that. Those items have a pretty broad synergy with many different fighters. Starting with rageblade, as others have said before I think it should be purely an AS/on hit item. For rageblades effect it may be time to retire the phantom hit, I would suggest an effect that scales up the damage of on hits depending on bonus AS similar to jhins passive with bAD. For black cleaver I think it is better to separate the anti armor niche it has since the recent last whisper changes, and replace its stacking shred with rageblades current bAD stacking but per application of physical damage. For trinity force the item really needs to have its price (of course that means it's stats too) toned down. I think making it purely an AD/sheen item rather than its current stat ball is the healthiest overall choice. Can build it out of caulfields warhammer, offer a flat out of base instead of bonus AD, and the sheen % can be lowered to 100-150% depending on which seems most appropriate. The item can ahve the added effect of converting a portion of bonus AD into base so it has a way to scale up rather than being the one item wonder it is now similar to rageblade.
Rioter Comments
: They can certainly build full tank and still do some damage. Think about it this way, if you're Camille and spend 60 - 90 seconds hitting a tank trying to kill them (cause lets be real its gonna take you that long). It will take the tank (it varies of course) prob 50 seconds to kill you by simply standing next to you with sunfire cape due to the relative health blocks. Its not the amt of damage a champ does that makes them hurt, its the amount of time it takes them to output that damage (if you're into cars its like torque vs horsepower). Bruisers are tricky cause they take forever to kill and still do a lot of damage in a short amount of time.
But then you have the ability as a tank to build IGB+sunfire+abyssal+thornmail, and be overall healthy as a damage soak but suddenly unhealthy as a damage dealer. Just like the issue pointed out about bruisers in general being a fine line for their ratio of damage:tanking ability. The only thing holding back tank builds like that is the amount of pen in the game now with conqueror/last whisper being recent changes/additions. I personally think that these tank items that lean more onto the damage side of things like i listed above should be made more into health/damage items while the more pure ones like visage/randuins/adaptive be better empowered in their stats or passives.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 8
Can we get some more/better context behind that kindred bug. Did it completely ignore all bonus attack speed? Was it only items? Was it scaling at less than 50% bonus AS? That statement is about as ambiguous as saying you are fixing a mord bug.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 8
Can we get some thoughts towards bloodrazer?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 8
Banner - I think you should do something similar to portal in that its power scales with champ bonus stats. Example gains armor, health and mr equal to 20% of your bonus. Something similar too for giving bonus damage equal to percent ad or AP. Rageblade - may want to go the route of removing the phantom hit and stat stacking. Too much in one item on top of phantom hit being too strong. Maybe consider making it scale up the power of on hits depending on bonus attack speed. Another option is to have it's attack speed to be total instead of bonus and let the champ break the cap. Kindred - consider also adding an AD scaling to the heal. Example 15%AD increased by x% per % missing health Trynd - please note for him the issues are that his highs and lows are more prominent. Not fun to be against when ahead not fun to be as when behind Xayah - considering letting her w/passive interact with on hits but a lower amount like with her auto ad. I know it is possible because i remember kog had a bug of that exact effect of lowering all damage from his auto's including on hits.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 6
There have been more than one call out to the point that bloodrazor is in a very poor state as an item. The jungle champs that would build it that are successful are seeing that success with the other jungle item options. On a similar note farming jungle champs haven't gotten any proper attention for years now, in fact riot has been making changes that make things worse for these types of jungle champs. Similar to the yi+taric cheese what are the thoughts of the recently popular 5 man zzrot+ banner cheese ?
Infernape (EUW)
: Imagine if Thresh's, Blitzcrank's and Nautilus' hooks were somehow rendered invisible. Now imagine how you'd somehow play against that.
cool first ill remove all their bonus health and turn it into their offensive stat (AP in this case)........
Rioter Comments
Kadexe (EUW)
: Completely removing the ultimate damage would be going too far, that's like 300-500 magic damage that you would have to somehow compensate for in the basic abilities.
oh I understand. Like i said compensate by shifting power into the basic abilities and adding/increasing AP ratio's. I did say increasing damage at first but there are other options. Could go for increasing utility/defensive power through longer/stronger ult slow, longer ult disable, higher Q heal, longer stun, ult wall lasting longer, lower ult cooldown, increase base/scaling health, increase armor/mr. In terms of AP power addition could add a mechanic of making Q have its damage splash around the target scaling with AP similar to how IBG works (so single target with zero AP and scaling splash with AP). I of course don't mean for all these at once too, but I think there are possible options that can be considered for the change.
: Remove the damage from her ult and let it be a utility tool is a great idea! Just don't understand why increase AD ratio on her, there's no need IMO, since she's intended to be a triforce bruiser. I know that some people like to play alternative builds, but sometimes ou can't force that too much because it goes against the champion design.
The champion design allows for alternative builds if they remove all damage from her ult they may as well make her a pure AD champ. Which would mean changing AP ratio's to AD. How does the damage reduction on W and damage on E scaling with AD sound to you..... Not to fun huh. If they remove ult damage and don't shift damage up in the rest of the kit, then it would likely be the utility that goes up. That could come in a combo of longer/stronger slow, longer disable, higher heal, longer stun, base stat or per level stat scaling increases. That is simply how much power in the form of damage is in the ult.
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Shadow Hazard

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