Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 2
What happened to giving us updates on the prestige point system last week? I haven't seen anything.
Rioter Comments
Hotarµ (NA)
: > Coming in and accusing him of lying is pretty shitty. Except I provided alternatives for both scenarios. I gave responses to if what he was saying was true and if it wasn't true. You know what else is shitty? Claiming that 3 employees agreed that something was unjust, then not providing proof of it when asked. >If needed, I will post the screenshot of the Rioter responding to me as proof the automated bot being hasty, Your situation isn't the same as his, those screenshots aren't going to do anything for me. Edit: And even if the bot was hasty, do you wish that wasn't the case? We get a ton of people that already complain that inters/feeders/trolls/afkers don't get punished enough, so you want to make it _more_ lenient? > but I think how you're responding to this situation is very white knight-ish for Riot Don't really care how you perceive me. I get variations of that same comment every day on the Boards. "You're just a Riot employee", "you're just a white knight", and/or "look at the little Riot fanboy over here" all because I choose to not blindly believe everything I come across and want to actually, you know, think and discuss things. >when it could very well be an error in the chat filter or the bot being adjusted recently when it was fine before. It very well could be, you're right. If it was an error, they should definitely overturn OP's punishment. It's only fair. However, he's giving me different answers atm (now saying he's got the screenshots, that Riot reset his punishments to a 10 game chat restriction, and more) so there's clearly more to this situation.
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=3Thzlgw2,comment-id=0002000100000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-04-10T16:14:54.896+0000) > > Except I provided alternatives for both scenarios. I gave responses to if what he was saying was true and if it wasn't true. > > You know what else is shitty? Claiming that 3 employees agreed that something was unjust, then not providing proof of it when asked. > > Your situation isn't the same as his, those screenshots aren't going to do anything for me. > > Edit: And even if the bot was hasty, do you wish that wasn't the case? We get a ton of people that already complain that inters/feeders/trolls/afkers don't get punished enough, so you want to make it _more_ lenient? > > Don't really care how you perceive me. I get variations of that same comment every day on the Boards. > > "You're just a Riot employee", "you're just a white knight", and/or "look at the little Riot fanboy over here" all because I choose to not blindly believe everything I come across and want to actually, you know, think and discuss things. > > It very well could be, you're right. If it was an error, they should definitely overturn OP's punishment. It's only fair. > > However, he's giving me different answers atm (now saying he's got the screenshots, that Riot reset his punishments to a 10 game chat restriction, and more) so there's clearly more to this situation. Of course I think the bot being hasty is a problem or I wouldn't be posting here. I don't think it's a good player experience at all for a bot to 14 day ban multiple people for tame, first offenses. OP provided screenshots of his experience and I can provide mine as well. I think this is pretty open and shut that the bot isn't working as intended. It's likely the word filter got altered.
Hotarµ (NA)
: >I mean if the OP is telling the truth then they didn't deserve either of those 2 punishments because they were way to harsh considering what was said. He said his first punishment was a 14-day ban. I'm going to quote Busty Demoness here because they summed it up nicely: _"If your first punishment was a 2 week suspension, then you clearly crossed a zero tolerance line. The big ones are death threats, encouraging self harm, and hate speech (including blatantly racist/sexist/homophobic terms). There is no other way for that punishment to be your first."_ >I mean does "stfu and stop typing" really sound like a bannable offense? When he openly disregards his previous punishment that specifically said "**Any continued negativity will result in a permanent suspension**", yes. Does it suck that he went from clean slate to 14-day to permanent ban? Sure, but he used racist, homophobic, or derogatory statements outside of the 'usual flame' that most people use. Special situation calls for special punishments/rules. He brought it on himself. >Also I assume this account the OP is on is the account that was perma banned in the first place so I assume they have it back since they are posting with it. Could be wrong though. Boards punishments and live-game punishments are separate. I could log in with my permanently banned account here and still have full use on the Boards.
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=3Thzlgw2,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T00:33:16.632+0000) > > He said his first punishment was a 14-day ban. I'm going to quote Busty Demoness here because they summed it up nicely: > > _"If your first punishment was a 2 week suspension, then you clearly crossed a zero tolerance line. The big ones are death threats, encouraging self harm, and hate speech (including blatantly racist/sexist/homophobic terms). There is no other way for that punishment to be your first."_ > > When he openly disregards his previous punishment that specifically said "**Any continued negativity will result in a permanent suspension**", yes. > > Does it suck that he went from clean slate to 14-day to permanent ban? Sure, but he used racist, homophobic, or derogatory statements outside of the 'usual flame' that most people use. Special situation calls for special punishments/rules. > > He brought it on himself. > > Boards punishments and live-game punishments are separate. I could log in with my permanently banned account here and still have full use on the Boards. Coming in and accusing him of lying is pretty shitty. If needed, I will post the screenshot of the Rioter responding to me as proof the automated bot being hasty, but I think how you're responding to this situation is very white knight-ish for Riot when it could very well be an error in the chat filter or the bot being adjusted recently when it was fine before.
KTFresh (NA)
: Account penalties should be handled by humans, not a bot
I had the same thing happen to me. My account was 14 day banned for calling someone on my team r%%%%%ed and wanting to ff the game and go next I'm not saying my chat log was clean, but it was 1 game and I had never received a warning or any other punishment previously. I think the chat bot got adjusted or something because it's never been this sensitive before to my knoweldge, and it should not be jumping to 14 day bans for relatively tame first offenses. I wrote into player support and they agreed the ban was harsh. Here is a copy of their response to me and my punishment was reversed it to a chat restriction. (Riot Games Player Support) Apr 4, 9:37 PM PDT Hey there Thanks for reaching out about this penalty on your account, looking at the game in question I do see that our system was a bit hasty here. While you were contributing to a more negative environment by insulting others, calling for reports, and calling out poor performance/decisions, this behavior wasn't so extreme that it should have warranted a two-week suspension. I've gone ahead and reverted this back down to a chat restriction, as that was the penalty that should have been placed for this conduct. In the future when other players are giving you a hard time I strongly encourage you to mute the players in question and focus on the match until you are able to report them yourself. Reports do not stack and it only takes one to put a player on our radar, so please do continue to use the post-game report system to bring negativity to our attention. Let me know if you have any other questions, and thanks again for reaching out. ***** Player Support Zaun Cleanup Crew
: Kayle's Skins Should Have a Helmet Toggle
Yes please. I like silver kayle without a helmet, and wouldnt even be able to see it until level 16.
: Transcended Kayle's Hair Doesn't Match In Game
Agree - in game should be flowy and long like in the splash art. It seems misleading.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: AP Itemization on PBE (8.4)
I'm concerned with the fact AP itemization is still so expensive, and you nerfed AP values pretty much all across the board, with a few minor exceptions. As someone else pointed out, even with Rabadon's (which is still fucking way too expensive to ever build), you will have LESS AP than you have on live. It's still ridiculous that AD carries are finishing their late game builds in the mid game, when mages aren't even getting their mid game power spike due to the cost difference between AD and AP. I'd like to see costs moved down across the board.
: > [{quoted}](name=Levanter,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KypbyVBv,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-14T18:53:44.401+0000) > > I mean I never had wifi when net neutrality was thing so I wouldn't know The only thing that has changed is that the cost of internet has gone up due to inflation. That's pretty much all. I just do not understand how people think that they are slaves to corporations. You are the one with purchasing power. You are the one who drives the free market. Vote with your wallet.
> [{quoted}](name=Xion Moonray,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KypbyVBv,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-12-14T19:03:37.719+0000) > > The only thing that has changed is that the cost of internet has gone up due to inflation. That's pretty much all. > > I just do not understand how people think that they are slaves to corporations. You are the one with purchasing power. You are the one who drives the free market. Vote with your wallet. I'm so glad that I have a choice between Comcast and nothing, since they have no market competition!! YAY CAPITALISM.
: Increase the 3 Club Limit!
Hoping for an update on this
Aeszarck (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Buffy,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=AGU1RtHn,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-15T00:09:21.714+0000) > > hire that man _And so they did._
> [{quoted}](name=Aeszarck,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=AGU1RtHn,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-04T21:59:44.819+0000) > > _And so they did._ Haha, that's awesome! It's great to see talent being recognized :) Grats, Tom!!
Rioter Comments
Riot JxE (NA)
: For now, just letting me know here is the best thing
> [{quoted}](name=Riot JxE,realm=NA,application-id=osqw6G4M,discussion-id=lZv6E2Xz,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-28T19:27:32.282+0000) > > For now, just letting me know here is the best thing Ah ok, thank you for looking into it! If it helps, the problem gets significantly worse when I'm streaming. I stream other games (Dark Souls, Hearthstone, Overwatch) and do not have the FPS problem when playing those games on stream. I tried lowering all my visual settings in League and switching servers, all that jazz. Good luck solving things!
Riot JxE (NA)
: We'll definitely look into that, thanks for the idea!
> [{quoted}](name=Riot JxE,realm=NA,application-id=osqw6G4M,discussion-id=lZv6E2Xz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-28T06:38:27.175+0000) > > We'll definitely look into that, thanks for the idea! Should we send in a ticket with info if we're having these issues? I'm getting massive FPS drops, but I'm playing on a pretty much brand new computer with quite a bit of memory.
: I mean, while I kind of agree with you ... they left {{item:3504}} in such a disgusting state of dominance for quite some time. Also, {{champion:40}} had a 58-59% win rate for a long while, so while I do get the balance team isn't horrible at their job, they seem biased all too often.
> [{quoted}](name=The Dark SouI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=abZrqEHd,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-26T19:16:37.977+0000) > > I mean, while I kind of agree with you ... they left {{item:3504}} in such a disgusting state of dominance for quite some time. Also, {{champion:40}} had a 58-59% win rate for a long while, so while I do get the balance team isn't horrible at their job, they seem biased all too often. No she didn't. Her win rate was 58% for a day after the changes... And she was hot fixed because of it... Twice.
Meddler (NA)
: Desire to play support has increased meaningfully yeah, which then reduces the frequency at which we have to autofill people to support, or put people with support listed as secondary there instead of their primary. Some of that increase is likely dependent on some things that aren't sustainable long term (e.g. Censer having been very strong and recognized as such) so possible we lose some of it again.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=RWtlGHrp,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-10-18T17:41:56.109+0000) > > Desire to play support has increased meaningfully yeah, which then reduces the frequency at which we have to autofill people to support, or put people with support listed as secondary there instead of their primary. Some of that increase is likely dependent on some things that aren't sustainable long term (e.g. Censer having been very strong and recognized as such) so possible we lose some of it again. Maybe think about redirecting the power allotted away from the ADC and more toward the support? That can let supports feel stronger without making the ADC so overbearing? Not sure, just a thought. I think Censer is a good item overall, just that it makes ADCs too strong, not the supports themselves.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against. To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years. Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs). As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while. I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc. So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much).
> [{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=svsAKkFw,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-10-17T01:07:41.351+0000) > > Personally, I think live Twitch indexes a bit too hard into teamfight power and not enough into his assassination/map control playstyle, though arguably both are quite frustrating to play against. > > To me though, Twitch's winrate is not extremely alarming as a hyperscaling carry with stealth which biases towards solo queue and he has pretty much sat at this winrate for almost the last 2 years. > > Having said that, there are things about this game state that are different than previous years (eg. Ardent is better on him and probably more frustrating than most other champs). > > As a result, we have opted not to nerf him for the last while. > > I'm personally not sure how much of this is Twitch is the best ADC vs "an ADC is the best ADC and here's the problem with them" - a lot of ADC's have been this at various points in time while being balanced for pro, eg. Ashe does too much damage while having too much utility, Caitlyn does too much damage while being too safe, Draven is too snowbally, Sivir engage is unbeatable, etc. > > So my earlier thoughts about a hyperscaling stealth ADC being top winrate is not surprising to me, because this is a good combination of traits to succeed in solo queue. (Though it's possible he is allowed to be the best, but not by this much). Are you actually kidding? A hyper carry with stealth one shotting entire teams doesn't alarm you? How is that ANY different than old Evelynn, other than that he is an ADC? The bias is nuts lately. He is becoming permanent ban status in high diamond since the balance team refuses to actually do anything to him.
: On ally cast, her W should polymorph allies into a cute critter, increasing their Movement and Attack Speeds, but making them melee.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xlJtnW2E,comment-id=001d00000000,timestamp=2017-10-11T05:18:26.570+0000) > > On ally cast, her W should polymorph allies into a cute critter, increasing their Movement and Attack Speeds, but making them melee. This would be so cute
: Hey dude. To preface my response, I'm a Playtester rather than a Designer so I'll give you a response to this to the best of my ability. The process of buffing/nerfing a champion is a lot more complicated than it seems to be on the outskirts, namely that we don't necessarily look at just the champions win rate to determine whether or not the champion is problematic and is in need for buffs/nerfs. Speaking of Twitch specifically, Twitch is a champion that has almost always had a 50%+ win rate in solo queue (though the play rate has frequently been lower) due to the nature of his kit (providing gank pressure, AoE damage in late game teamfights, etc). He's a champion that has had that as his "resting" win rate because of what he provides to the team on the assumption that he gets past where he is normally punished (his early game). He's recently been put moreso in the spotlight with all the focus on bottom lane and the strengths in bottom lane with the current meta, namely the fact that it's harder to punish his weak point as effectively because of Ardent & Enchanter supports keeping him alive. Due to the nature of Twitch and how his resting win rate has always been so high, we're not sure if we want to nerf him due to the fact that the meta may be completely upended with the preseason Runes Reforged update.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vb9GJNmX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-11T03:29:32.922+0000) > > Hey dude. To preface my response, I'm a Playtester rather than a Designer so I'll give you a response to this to the best of my ability. > > The process of buffing/nerfing a champion is a lot more complicated than it seems to be on the outskirts, namely that we don't necessarily look at just the champions win rate to determine whether or not the champion is problematic and is in need for buffs/nerfs. > > Speaking of Twitch specifically, Twitch is a champion that has almost always had a 50%+ win rate in solo queue (though the play rate has frequently been lower) namely due to the nature of his kit (providing gank pressure, AoE damage in late game teamfights, etc). He's a champion that has had that as his "resting" win rate because of what he provides to the team on the assumption that he gets past where he is normally punished (his early game). He's recently been put moreso in the spotlight with all the focus on bottom lane and the strengths in bottom lane with the current meta, namely the fact that it's harder to punish his weak point as effectively because of Ardent & Enchanter supports keeping him alive. Due to the nature of Twitch and how his resting win rate has always been so high, we're not sure if we want to nerf him due to the fact that the meta may be completely upended with the preseason Runes Reforged update. A champion stealth nuking your entire team isn't healthy for the game. Whether ardent is strong or not. He's reached permaban at high elo. I dislike your logic, because it shows a lot of favoritism. Why nerf any champion at all if they'll be drastically changed in the pre season with runes?
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: In mid-season, one of our projects was to increase the attractiveness and general agency of the support role. By giving supports access to income streams that they never had before, they are also much more impactful. For reference, Redemption and Locket also are very cost efficient , though most of their power is in the actives. I would say what players find particularly offensive (though correct me if I'm wrong) is the relatively low skill expression of Ardent's power. So yes, I would agree that the role and items have been power crept, but this needs to be held in the context of supports having less gold income as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HiV8tNrd,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-10-10T03:03:59.177+0000) > > In mid-season, one of our projects was to increase the attractiveness and general agency of the support role. By giving supports access to income streams that they never had before, they are also much more impactful. > > For reference, Redemption and Locket also are very cost efficient , though most of their power is in the actives. I would say what players find particularly offensive (though correct me if I'm wrong) is the relatively low skill expression of Ardent's power. So yes, I would agree that the role and items have been power crept, but this needs to be held in the context of supports having less gold income as well. I'm pretty sure supports aren't really the problem - it's how overbearing the item makes ADCs when it's bought. It's so strong that ADCs are opting into starting relic so their support can get it faster. The solution is probably to make support items like ardent not so benefical to the ADC and more oriented toward making the support themselves have some kind of meaningful action attributed to the item. More akin to Redemption.
Aeszarck (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Rezyn,realm=EUW,application-id=cBWEdEZ4,discussion-id=W0aEONuP,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2017-10-07T19:31:19.607+0000) > > So, getting Challenger - Master - Master won't net me anything better than people getting Gold - Gold - Gold when it comes to rewards? > > Also, what happened to the promised praise of getting better rewards for getting multiple ranks in queues? > > Sadly I'm a bit let down this time You get exclusive Master and Challenger Icons, Master and Challenger Loading Screen Borders, and physical Challenger rewards. This is the exact same stuff that Master and Challenger players in previous seasons got, except they got different looking Icons and Borders, and did not get physical rewards if they placed Challenger before Season 6.
> [{quoted}](name=Aeszarck,realm=NA,application-id=cBWEdEZ4,discussion-id=W0aEONuP,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2017-10-08T01:00:23.168+0000) > > You get exclusive Master and Challenger Icons, Master and Challenger Loading Screen Borders, and physical Challenger rewards. This is the exact same stuff that Master and Challenger players in previous seasons got, except they got different looking Icons and Borders, and did not get physical rewards if they placed Challenger before Season 6. Oh boy, an icon and a border for 300x more work :)
Adalvar (EUW)
: Maybe because the problem isn't the champions? Maybe because the problem is a overtuned item? Maybe because they are already introducing a game changing set of mechanics that will significantly alter most playstyles and want to see how things shake up first before slapping nerfs left and right? I know, crazy right?
> [{quoted}](name=Adalvar,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=TbHlfb46,comment-id=005f0000,timestamp=2017-10-07T02:23:00.852+0000) > > Maybe because the problem isn't the champions? > > Maybe because the problem is a overtuned item? > > Maybe because they are already introducing a game changing set of mechanics that will significantly alter most playstyles and want to see how things shake up first before slapping nerfs left and right? > > I know, crazy right? Yah, because Twitch assassinating your entire team from stealth is SUPER healthy for the game lol. It's not an overtuned item that's the problem, ADCs themselves are overtuned.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 6
Why are you guys ignoring the problem of Twitch / Tristana?
Bunnymap (NA)
: It’s not just the lane, it’s the play style. Graves is a low range burst champion that happens to have a gun and builds ad. He isn’t an adc because of how different his play style is. Ezreal uses abilities to do damage, but his play style is still like a traditional adc with kiting, long range poke, and dps.
> [{quoted}](name=MrBunnyslap,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvkgdmMi,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T21:21:09.294+0000) > > It’s not just the lane, it’s the play style. Graves is a low range burst champion that happens to have a gun and builds ad. He isn’t an adc because of how different his play style is. Ezreal uses abilities to do damage, but his play style is still like a traditional adc with kiting, long range poke, and dps. Graves also has range, poke and DPS. :| He just /also/ is burst centric. All ADCs have different play patterns, but he's definitely an ADC. Even Riot classifies him as one.
: Graves isnt really a traditional ADC. I dont think "ranged champion that does AD damage" is enough of a binder to make that a class
> [{quoted}](name=WhoIsThisDude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvkgdmMi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-06T21:00:59.398+0000) > > Graves isnt really a traditional ADC. I dont think "ranged champion that does AD damage" is enough of a binder to make that a class I mean by that logic Ezreal is no longer an ADC. Just because an ADC is being played in the jungle doesn't make them not an ADC.
Rioter Comments
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Is this any different to a really fed mid laner trying to catch people out and dying in the process while you're supporting them? Sometimes you just have teammates that don't play optimally; that's the game. However, there's something to be said about having multiple roles be supported in lane, we just haven't been able to achieve it in the attempts we've tried internally - not to say we'd never do it, but it's a hard problem to solve and takes time. AD/Support in the current landscape feels a lot more statchecky out of the early game than I'd personally like, but that is almost an expected effect if Ardent is the only offensive support option.
> [{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qjf4o9Ah,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-10-04T01:38:01.470+0000) > > Is this any different to a really fed mid laner trying to catch people out and dying in the process while you're supporting them? > > Sometimes you just have teammates that don't play optimally; that's the game. > > However, there's something to be said about having multiple roles be supported in lane, we just haven't been able to achieve it in the attempts we've tried internally - not to say we'd never do it, but it's a hard problem to solve and takes time. AD/Support in the current landscape feels a lot more statchecky out of the early game than I'd personally like, but that is almost an expected effect if Ardent is the only offensive support option. Yes. The entire game shouldn't revolve around the ADC and which bot lane wins.
: Where exactly are you getting 55%+ from? Sona: 54% in both [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/) and [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Sona/) Lulu: 50% in both [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Lulu/) and [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Lulu/) Soraka: 54% in [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Soraka/) and 53% in [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Soraka/) Janna, meanwhile, is at 54% in both [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Janna/) and [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Janna/).
> [{quoted}](name=Redesignated,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=lY1Nkh9J,comment-id=00500000,timestamp=2017-10-03T19:41:15.374+0000) > > Where exactly are you getting 55%+ from? > > Sona: 54% in both [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/) and [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Sona/) > Lulu: 50% in both [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Lulu/) and [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Lulu/) > Soraka: 54% in [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Soraka/) and 53% in [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Soraka/) > > Janna, meanwhile, is at 54% in both [Platinum+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Janna/) and [Diamond+](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Janna/). You're looking at aggregate data, which includes data from when the past was first shipped (Where Janna was sporting around a 58-60% win rate). Janna's winrate has since dropped to 52% over the course of the patch, which includes the hotfixes that went live, and this number has continued to drop over the course of the patch, though it's now finally starting to stagnate. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Janna/ Sona's winrate has been 54-55% consistently over the course of the patch, which should be very concerning. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sona/ Soraka's has been consistently around 54.5% over the course of the patch, though since Janna's hotfixes, has been rising toward 55% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Soraka/ Lulu has a very high pick/ban, with her pick rate being around 20% and her ban rate at 30%. Despite this, she's managed to stay above a 50% win rate, on a those who are skilled with her, her win rate is even higher. I suspect this is because Lulu has more of a skill/learning curve than others: http://champion.gg/champion/Lulu/Support? As soon as you bop one, another one is going to become strong in this meta. I suspect this is because of how strong Ancient Coin and Ardent are.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 3
Now that Janna was micro patch repeat nerfed, Soraka, Sona and Lulu are just replacing her, with winrates of 55%+ in high elo. What are your thoughts on this?
: I'm not sure where that info comes from. As of checking with the data crew internally this week, it seems Coin users gain marginally more gold than Spellthief's users from their gold generation item specifically. I'm not an expert on the specific tests that were run, so I'll see if I can have one of them drop into a thread with more info at a later time.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEaEnc3r,comment-id=000700070000,timestamp=2017-10-03T06:07:09.808+0000) > > I'm not sure where that info comes from. As of checking with the data crew internally this week, it seems Coin users gain marginally more gold than Spellthief's users from their gold generation item specifically. I'm not an expert on the specific tests that were run, so I'll see if I can have one of them drop into a thread with more info at a later time. It depends on WHEN you're looking at the income levels. Coin gives you enough /early/ gold to rush an ardent.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: AP items usually have CDR so that they are not so spiky (power in burst damage) as a 1 item purchase. Though as a design tradeoff, it means we need to give the item stats in other scaling categories (eg. CDR, %health damage), which leads to things like CDR creep. Agree that we need more choices in AP itemisation, however it's a reasonably big project and the designer needs to be careful they don't power creep the system, which is hard to do. I wouldn't say the system is all bad though, there is still some choice between Liandries/Ludens and Void/Zhonyas/Banshees/Hat are also all situational in 2nd/3rd slot too.
> [{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jHAgghMg,comment-id=002c,timestamp=2017-10-03T02:50:16.205+0000) > > AP items usually have CDR so that they are not so spiky (power in burst damage) as a 1 item purchase. Though as a design tradeoff, it means we need to give the item stats in other scaling categories (eg. CDR, %health damage), which leads to things like CDR creep. > > Agree that we need more choices in AP itemisation, however it's a reasonably big project and the designer needs to be careful they don't power creep the system, which is hard to do. > > I wouldn't say the system is all bad though, there is still some choice between Liandries/Ludens and Void/Zhonyas/Banshees/Hat are also all situational in 2nd/3rd slot too. Are they though? No one in high elo or competitive play is building Rabadon's Deathcap, and most people do not finish their Zhonya's Hourglass, they simply sit on armguard. Ludens Echo is mandatory on most mages, but gives pretty cost inefficient stats. Void Staff is mandatory on every mage most games. The order in which you buy items doesn't make AP itemization very variable IMO.
: not really. 48%-52% is the preferred zone, so 53% is almost there but not quite. For this case, there's also the fact they may be looking into some of the causes like more ardent censer changes or gold item changes. We don't know this information, so we can't assume anything
> [{quoted}](name=ARRaven908,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=001000030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-01T06:57:58.238+0000) > > not really. 48%-52% is the preferred zone, so 53% is almost there but not quite. > > For this case, there's also the fact they may be looking into some of the causes like more ardent censer changes or gold item changes. We don't know this information, so we can't assume anything Her win rate has continued to drop over the course of the patch. She's down to 51-52% now. As people learn to adjust (such as now capitalizing on the massive CD shield), she will likely taper out of favor, as stronger picks (Lulu, Sona, Soraka, Taric) who abuse ardent take precedence over her. I suspect that is why the PBE nerfs are reverted.
: Likelihood is that we're not shipping the changes on PBE. Also worth noting is that the numbers stated by lolalytics for that last datapoint is inaccurate. Currently Janna is sitting at 53.5% at high MMR based on internal data, so not nearly as low as 49%.
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-09-30T02:03:59.489+0000) > > Likelihood is that we're not shipping the changes on PBE. > > Also worth noting is that the numbers stated by lolalytics for that last datapoint is inaccurate. Currently Janna is sitting at 53.5% at high MMR based on internal data, so not nearly as low as 49%. Will be interesting to see if those numbers flux as people adjust to her new hotfixes. What are your thoughts on Coin/Ardent, as well as Janna's Ally MS part of her passive? If she needs a nerf, I'd personally like to see that be what's hit. It's probably the most uninteractive thing in her kit, and it offers quite a bit of invisible power, especially combod with Coin. Before coin was buffed, Janna was sitting at around a 52% win rate, so I can't help but think that's at least part of the problem.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Buffy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-29T22:50:11.796+0000) > > You realize the hotfixes went out today and yesterday right? Toony is talking post hotfixes, which lolanalytics (what I'm linking you to in the OP) shows you. You're looking at aggregate statistics for the current patch, which include release Janna (which was too strong). I wasn't aware of the hotfix, but basically what you're telling me is you're freaking out over a nerf that hasn't even been out a single day.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=000000000001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-29T22:54:01.063+0000) > > I wasn't aware of the hotfix, but basically what you're telling me is you're freaking out over a nerf that hasn't even been out a single day. No. I'm not freaking out at all. Not sure where you're getting that. I'm stating pretty matter of factly what Janna's current statistics are, and that despite those, she has hefty nerfs set to go on the PBE. This is after a double hotfix that has dramatically lowered her winrate. I'm also pointing out that there are quite a few ways to address Janna without making her feel bad, like removing the ally movespeed bonus she has right now. She doesn't need it with the new passive they just gave her, and it's adding a lot of invisible power to her kit.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Toony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T22:35:34.891+0000) > > Except now, before this new nerf is proposed, her winrate is below 50%. Others are still standing at 54-55%+. Ok dude you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I'll post a link to op.gg below. Over the past week she STILL has the highest win rate among supports in almost every division. And her win rate definitely is not below 50%. http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ As you can see the link above shows the numbers for plat, but you can check almost any division she is still WAY too strong.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T22:41:08.490+0000) > > Ok dude you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I'll post a link to op.gg below. Over the past week she STILL has the highest win rate among supports in almost every division. And her win rate definitely is not below 50%. > > http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ > > As you can see the link above shows the numbers for plat, but you can check almost any division she is still WAY too strong. You realize the hotfixes went out today and yesterday right? Toony is talking post hotfixes, which lolanalytics (what I'm linking you to in the OP) shows you. You're looking at aggregate statistics for the current patch, which include release Janna (which was too strong).
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Buffy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:30:12.869+0000) > > Now watch as Lulu, Sona and Soraka become huge issues. Janna was just the current biggest offender. Lulu has already climbed up to a very high ban rate in diamond elo. > > Gameplay needs to look at coin and ardent - They're crowding out all other options. And for some reason, the most boring and uninteractive part of Janna's kit (her ally% MS passive) has been left alone. So someone other than Janna is strong for once? Good.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-09-29T22:23:12.072+0000) > > So someone other than Janna is strong for once? Good. They've been strong. Ardent supports are currently dominating the meta. It wasn't actually until coin got buffed this hard that Janna became so ridiculous.
: Just wanna know is riot nerfs ardent cvencer and coin does janna deserve compensation buffs? Or is the enchanter class gonna plummet for a while or still be fine because of the nature or crit adc's currently?
> [{quoted}](name=CrimsonLotus3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-09-29T22:17:02.441+0000) > > Just wanna know is riot nerfs ardent cvencer and coin does janna deserve compensation buffs? Or is the enchanter class gonna plummet for a while or still be fine because of the nature or crit adc's currently? Janna definitely does not need compensation buffs at all. It's likely that enchanters will suffer a lot with the rune update (they're losing Windspeakers), but they're also gaining access to a lot of other tools they didnt have before to be aggressive. It's probably best to wait and see rather than jump the gun and buff them.
MagÊ (EUW)
: the nerfs already happend it was hotfixes of 09/29
> [{quoted}](name=MagÊ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:39:32.799+0000) > > the nerfs already happend > > it was hotfixes of 09/29 The shield nerfs and passive nerf were shoved to live, the AD per level on shield nerf is still PBE only.
Shadòw (EUW)
: just delete all of them lol. that aren't even real champions.
> [{quoted}](name=Shadòw,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:32:17.928+0000) > > just delete all of them lol. > > that aren't even real champions. Right. Quality feedback. Thanks for the intuitive discussion!
Shadòw (EUW)
: nah nerf that shit she has been OP long enough
> [{quoted}](name=Shadòw,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5yf11ZdA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:28:24.609+0000) > > nah nerf that shit she has been OP long enough Now watch as Lulu, Sona and Soraka become huge issues. Janna was just the current biggest offender. Lulu has already climbed up to a very high ban rate in diamond elo. Gameplay needs to look at coin and ardent - They're crowding out all other options. And for some reason, the most boring and uninteractive part of Janna's kit (her ally% MS passive) has been left alone.
  Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 29
Thoughts on Janna after second hotfix? A lot of Janna mains have suggested removing the % MS on ally passive. What are your thoughts on this? Is that part of the passive still needed with the new aspects that were tacked on? Additionally, the hotfix listed Janna's passive as levels 1-7-13 (15-25-25). Is the level 13 value supposed to be 35? What are your thoughts on coin and ardent now? Personally I think coin is still crowding out the other support options, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Rioter Comments
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.19
Have you considered removing the old part of Janna's passive to put her in a more balanced state? It's really not needed anymore, and it has pretty insane stacking with coin (~20% ally bonus move speed). Is coin something you guys still want to look at going forward? A lot of supports that should be specing into frost or relic are going coin, simply because it's so ridiculously low risk and cost efficient.
: Janna Hotfix Context
> [{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=gikJEw03,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-27T20:35:41.741+0000) > > Hey folks! > > As you’re reading this, we just finished deploying a balance hotfix for Janna as follow-up on our changes to her on 7.19. The goals for the initial changelist were pretty simple, if a Janna wants to win lane, she has to interact and engage with her lane opponents in ways she didn’t have to before. We wanted to make playing as Janna feel more rewarding when played well while giving her opponents the opportunity to actually outplay her in lane, instead of just watching her sitting behind her ADC and shielding their way through lane. > > Before shipping, we took the deliberate approach of not over nerfing Janna considering that we were working on reshaping Ardent Censer in parallel to her kit changes. We judged that a world where both her and the item were nerfed substantially to be a worse world, and planned our changes to that. At the end of the day, we concluded that she had the potential to be strong on release, but firmly believed that when properly tuned, the direction of this new play pattern would result in a Janna that was healthier for League. In light of that, we made plans to quickly follow up based on her day one metrics if need be, which is why we’ve pushed out our balance hotfix to her today. We’ll also continue to be pay attention to both to her and Ardent Censer closely for the new few weeks. > > Ultimately, with how hot of a topic Janna has been recently, you might be wondering why we didn’t just hold off on Janna for another patch, or why we shipped her like this. To us, it felt more valuable to put a change out we were far happier with directionally than leave her in her current state for another two weeks. It’s important to note that the extra time of internal playtesting likely wouldn’t have resulted in a drastic increase in confidence in this changelist, especially not when compared to the millions of games we can get from around the world in a matter of hours once we go Live. So, if you’re a Janna main (or enthusiast, or someone who just bopped her in lane), feel free to let us know what you think about her changes! > > The changes that we shipped an hour and a half ago: > > **Base Stats** > Base Movement Speed :: 335 >>> 320 > Base Health :: 525 >>> 500 > Base Mana :: 409.52 >>> 350 > > **Zephyr (W)** > Cost :: 40/50/60/70/80 >>> 50/60/70/80/90 Agree with Janna Mechanics. Seems weird you keep hitting her damage (by nerfing her MS again, you're now nerfing her damage and her "shtick" of being the "fast" champion) when the main issue seems to be her passive combined with Ancient Coin. It's granting Janna's allies ~20% bonus move speed for Janna just existing. That is a ridiculous amount of invisible power that should be allocated elsewhere. I'd like this power budget to be allocated to her offensive or playmaking parts of her kit. Coin in general is still way too strong in comparison to frost queen's and relic shield. Far better rewards (more gold, better passive) for far less risk. I'd suggest talking with some high elo support mains at Riot like Jinxylord to get an idea on how best to approach coin going forward. I'd like to see Janna's shield duration looked at as well (and perhaps every shield support). A shorter length shield better rewards a well timed shield. It might be also worth nerfing her late game shield length. Something like 16-15-14-13-12 might be more appropriate for her shield CD, so that Janna still does need to make meaningful shield decisions late game. With 45% CDR, shield has effectively no cooldown late game. That's a huge part of her problem, to be honest. I'd also caution over-nerfing her right away. People need time to figure out that Janna needs to be punished early game now, where she is exceedingly weaker in lane. I also do think that having dialogue with the community would be good... You were pretty much silent until now about the Janna changes, and there was a lot of useful feedback that could have been collected from Janna mains on how to best approach her.
Auberaun (NA)
: An autoattacking Janna is certainly a force to be reckoned with now, attack speed might not be bad (no idea honestly) but I'm pretty sure that taking ghost is cheezy. Maybe it'll work though!
> [{quoted}](name=Auberaun,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=f8hp6yG8,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-09-27T00:16:34.443+0000) > > An autoattacking Janna is certainly a force to be reckoned with now, attack speed might not be bad (no idea honestly) but I'm pretty sure that taking ghost is cheezy. Maybe it'll work though! I'm fairly shocked you went with an 18 second cooldown on E. I don't see Janna really being viable after that. It would have made more sense to nerf the shield duration in order to reward well timed shields, or to go closer to a 15-16 second rank 1 E (which is still quite punishing). With the significant nerfs to her base AD and scaling AD (and the dimishing returns on movement speed as Janna buys it) she will completely be drowned out by Lulu, Soraka and Sona. It's also kind of insulting that in the patch notes you guys stated that you want to hit her with more nerfs before these have even gone live, with a nerf already on the PBE. Honestly pretty ridiculous how these changes have been shoved through with little to no dialogue at all.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 26
Won't it be quite difficult to judge rune balance before you adjust champion stats? This is particularly true for any of the damaging runes. We can't see a realistic damage representation without most champions having their base MR reduced (due to penetration not being in the rune setup).
Keyru (NA)
: Boards Moderation Discord Verification
: The main problem with Janna is that she can work by not interacting with the enemy directly. She can stay way in the back, shielding the ADC and throwing out her long ranged tornados. Meanwhile the champions you mentioned actually have reasons to interact. Soraka can heal, but she spends her own health to do so. If she wants to get that back, she has to hit an enemy with Q, so she has to move in range of the enemy to retaliate. Sona wants to deal damage in lane. Walking up to the enemy and use Q + AA combo. Again, she actively walks in range of the enemy to do her stuff. Lulu wants to go in range of the enemy to polymorph. And she isn't really performing on the same level as the other enchanters you mentioned right now. What they are trying to do with Janna is to force her to interact with her enemy, otherwise she will lose lane hard. Nerfing her shield CD is part of this. If she doesn't walk in range and actively participates in trades and fights, her ADC will suffer alot, since a shield every 18 seconds is not gonna cut it.
> [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIy3na8N,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-09-18T07:58:47.380+0000) > > The main problem with Janna is that she can work by not interacting with the enemy directly. > She can stay way in the back, shielding the ADC and throwing out her long ranged tornados. > > Meanwhile the champions you mentioned actually have reasons to interact. > Soraka can heal, but she spends her own health to do so. If she wants to get that back, she has to hit an enemy with Q, so she has to move in range of the enemy to retaliate. > > Sona wants to deal damage in lane. Walking up to the enemy and use Q + AA combo. Again, she actively walks in range of the enemy to do her stuff. > > Lulu wants to go in range of the enemy to polymorph. And she isn't really performing on the same level as the other enchanters you mentioned right now. > > What they are trying to do with Janna is to force her to interact with her enemy, otherwise she will lose lane hard. Nerfing her shield CD is part of this. If she doesn't walk in range and actively participates in trades and fights, her ADC will suffer alot, since a shield every 18 seconds is not gonna cut it. The champions you just mentioned have tools to do damage when they go in. Janna does not have those trading tools, only disengage tools. If Janna goes in to trade, her and her ADC will likely die, because they don't have the abilities to compete. Janna is basically a sitting duck aaing with now miserable base damage. Soraka does not really have to get into danger range to use her Starcall (I play quite a bit of Soraka too). Sona's Q range is also quite large, and she can reliably poke with it. Also Lulu is a top pick right now in high elo. Lulu should not be randomly polymorphing in lane. She should be shielding her ADC and going in to Auto / Glitterlance poke when possible. Both of these are not risky to lulu due to her range. Lulu has the same capability as Janna to simply shield all lane and not interact, but she definitely has the tools to interact if she chooses to. If you want Janna to interact in lane, then she needs a reason to do so. Current PBE changes do not afford that to her. These changes do not force Janna to interact. In fact, they do the opposite. Janna has two options this patch. Pushing with Howling Gale so that she isn't pressured into using her shield (incredibly risky, but not in an engaging way), or sit behind her turret and wait until she can get to level 7-9 to be a champion again.
Broporo (NA)
: https://i.gyazo.com/f134d3ae73aab06f692fc5c12a5209f5.png This is the one I was talking about, not the circle one. This is not the way it originally looked no, but I'm being told that this is how the icon was *meant* to look. I'm not sure who accidentally changed the icon, but it wasn't intentional. Don't shoot the messenger is all I'm saying here. TBH, at the end of the day, we on the boards can't actually get our hands dirty and change it to how you'd want it to look regardless. If you're unhappy with the icon accidentally being changed and you're looking for some type of compensation, I'd suggest reaching out to our billing teams in a [**ticket**](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) to voice your concern and see what could be done!
> [{quoted}](name=Broporo,realm=NA,application-id=osqw6G4M,discussion-id=OmMFZ1qe,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-18T03:17:32.396+0000) > > https://i.gyazo.com/f134d3ae73aab06f692fc5c12a5209f5.png > > This is the one I was talking about, not the circle one. This is not the way it originally looked no, but I'm being told that this is how the icon was *meant* to look. I'm not sure who accidentally changed the icon, but it wasn't intentional. Don't shoot the messenger is all I'm saying here. > > TBH, at the end of the day, we on the boards can't actually get our hands dirty and change it to how you'd want it to look regardless. If you're unhappy with the icon accidentally being changed and you're looking for some type of compensation, I'd suggest reaching out to our billing teams in a [**ticket**](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/requests/new) to voice your concern and see what could be done! Intent is not to shoot the messenger. If my post comes across that way I apologize. But as a customer, I think it sucks that the product was switched out. I'm not petty enough to file a ticket asking for my 15 dollars back (and I know they wouldn't anyways), but I do think the OP's request that both versions be granted to those who purchased the bundle is more than fair. The icon is already made. All you'd have to do is grant it to those who purchased the bundle. Don't really see why that is an unfair request at all. Additionally most people interpreted the "accidental" change as the icon being made to be a circle, which was the second version of the icon. Which means the icon had 2 accidental versions before this third version. Edit: For reference, this is what the bugged icon looked like https://i.imgur.com/TYrD5CB.jpg
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Sharmander

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