: Sorry, but I don't have a problem with her heal. Her W actually is not OP and is in fact the most burdensome part of her kit to her team; Keep in mind: while attached, she leaves her ally completely vulnerable to being destroyed. And almost nothing she can do really avoids that fate. Her R is only a Root (if it hits 3 times), which means people can STILL TRADE. If it's a 2v2 situation, the side without Yuumi will win 90% of the time. The only exception is those who are already brawlers who are already ahead, and can almost 1v5 on their own. Attaching to Kayn or Nasus, for example. Most of the time, Yuumi is suicide for her ADC. If she detaches, she dies in 2 hits. If she doesn't detach, she dies 2 hits after her solo ally dies.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q17AGX1p,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-19T22:19:59.439+0000) > > Sorry, but I don't have a problem with her heal. Her W actually is not OP and is in fact the most burdensome part of her kit to her team; > > Keep in mind: while attached, she leaves her ally completely vulnerable to being destroyed. And almost nothing she can do really avoids that fate. Her R is only a Root (if it hits 3 times), which means people can STILL TRADE. If it's a 2v2 situation, the side without Yuumi will win 90% of the time. The only exception is those who are already brawlers who are already ahead, and can almost 1v5 on their own. Attaching to Kayn or Nasus, for example. Most of the time, Yuumi is suicide for her ADC. > > If she detaches, she dies in 2 hits. > If she doesn't detach, she dies 2 hits after her solo ally dies. Having one less body does not make her more burdensome. It means that she won't die unless she pops to the wrong champ (getting intercepted by the enemy team's CC, which is HER problem). It means that no matter what, she's not going to have the threat of death to the enemy team when played right, which means her healing, damage, etc, is completely unthreatenable once she's latched on. You act like her being attached leaves her ally to being destroyed, but it's the same regardless what healer support you pick. None are tanky enough to survive what the ADC would be receiving. Soraka can't heal herself with her Ws (which are off CD more often), Sona's heal+shield is actually WEAKER than Yuumi's double E burst (and vastly weaker than Yuumi's Auto Attack shield + EE combo), No support should be INTING (because what else is it) to save their ADC/partner. And if the ADC/partner is bad enough to die in a situation where Yuumi dies too, then the odds are that 'Raka, that Sona, etc, would probably be equally screwed. I've found 0 situation where there's much if any difference. You say that in a 2v2, the side without Yuumi will win 90% of the time. Yet bar a couple situations, one including a frickin Volibear support, we've won all but maybe 2-3 of our ~20 now laning phases. I've won 2v3s with Yuumi (when we get ganked). You say she dies in 2 hits, but forget her health's effectively the same as Nami (only 100 difference at level 18). But she has better MS (E), better and cheaper single target heal, a permanent shield (not that she'll use this often late-game), etc. I think you just have this weird prejudice because you just don't know how to either play with, or as, Yuumi. I'm a support main, I can soundly say I know WTF I'm doing, even if I'm stuck at silver-gold ELO because my junglers tend to int, and if not them then usually top lane (the best thing for Yuumi to latch onto late-game). Also you forget one thing: You say her W does nothing: Giving a free ~70 AD (after the 0.6x Adaptive force to AD modifier) lategame to an AD who builds high AS or hits VERY rapidly or hard gets massive in gains. Kayle, Yi, Riven, Olaf, Draven, potentially Kog'Maw, etc. Hell, giving ~120 AP to an AP Burst mage like Ryze is JUST RIDICULOUS. Her benefits are subtle, if you can't realize and utilize those subtle advantages, odds are you'll never win a game, with, or as, a Yuumi.
: These days with how short fights are a 7 to 9 second cooldown (Yuumi Q doesn't go on cooldown until the projectile dies, so bare minimum of 7 seconds if you want the slow), might as well be a 12 second cooldwon. Zyra E doesn't have to last at least a second in flight to slow. Zyra will pump out a lot more damage, and has the utility of usually building Rylais so her plants slow (and her normal E plants slow as well). You can juke Yuumi Q as well, bu t also she's not doing anything while directing Q (not healing or ulting... unless she ulted first). Zyra can do her thing from the backline, but it seems Yuumi is designed to go on the front line to disrupt (again I'd probably chose another champ), so whoever she's on dies, she's dead too. A Garen can break your slow, but not Zyra Q. I mean, if you like Yuumi, go ahead and play her. I think that therea re subtle sacrifices that she makes that are too much for what she brings. EDIT: One of those sacrifices, is that all of her abilities that CC don't just CC. Her Q has to fly for at least a second (so unless attached you're probably not going to slow), and her ult roots after 3 hits. Honestly, I would expect that to be like a stun and not a root. THough I guess for base damage it does a lot if you hit all the waves.
> [{quoted}](name=Hethalean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6oBMW4G7,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-19T17:43:30.334+0000) > > These days with how short fights are a 7 to 9 second cooldown (Yuumi Q doesn't go on cooldown until the projectile dies, so bare minimum of 7 seconds if you want the slow), might as well be a 12 second cooldwon. Zyra E doesn't have to last at least a second in flight to slow. Zyra will pump out a lot more damage, and has the utility of usually building Rylais so her plants slow (and her normal E plants slow as well). > > You can juke Yuumi Q as well, bu t also she's not doing anything while directing Q (not healing or ulting... unless she ulted first). Zyra can do her thing from the backline, but it seems Yuumi is designed to go on the front line to disrupt (again I'd probably chose another champ), so whoever she's on dies, she's dead too. > > A Garen can break your slow, but not Zyra Q. I mean, if you like Yuumi, go ahead and play her. I think that therea re subtle sacrifices that she makes that are too much for what she brings. > > EDIT: One of those sacrifices, is that all of her abilities that CC don't just CC. Her Q has to fly for at least a second (so unless attached you're probably not going to slow), and her ult roots after 3 hits. Honestly, I would expect that to be like a stun and not a root. THough I guess for base damage it does a lot if you hit all the waves. Bit late. 6 Second CD * .55 (45% CDR) = 3.3 second CD. The max range is at 1 second, you'll aim to hit them within 2, fast running champs will be hit in 3. Either way that's 4.3 to 6.3 seconds give or take. A 4.3-6.3 second CD of 1.5 second 80% (80% is massive mind you) nigh undodgable Skillshots wherein I'm moving non-stop long as my 'body' is moving. Meaning that if I miss, I don't end up snared in place for 0.5~ seconds. This means that long as I keep hitting, my opponent isn't escaping without wall jumping or flashing - something I can still pre-empt their position and still hit them. Zyra misses, she gains nothing whatsoever without Rylais and her plants - shoehorning her build for a soft heal. >You can juke Yuumi Q Which a good Yuumi would WANT you to do either way as it forces you to move non-optimally, allowing your chaser(s)/engager to catch up. >A Garen can break your slow, but not Zyra Q The fact you mixed her Q and E up probably proves you aren't a Zyra main and just grabbing the info off the fandom/wikia, unfamiliar with projectile speed or the sort and hence unfamiliar with the champ's feel. >One of those sacrifices, is that all of her abilities that CC don't just CC. Her Q has to fly for at least a second (so unless attached you're probably not going to slow), and her ult roots after 3 hits. Honestly, I would expect that to be like a stun and not a root. THough I guess for base damage it does a lot if you hit all the waves. A second + 3.3 = 4.3 second Cooldown, nowhere close to the 12 second you presumed. 1.5 / 4.3 = 34.8(repeating) or basically 35% upkeep of a 80% slow. That's equivalent to a 28% permanent slow with a 600+ Damage late-game consistent poke. Of course, 1.5 / 6.3 is 23.809~ for 24% we'll say upkeep, or 19.2% continuous slow. A slow that more or less will chase your ass down and is deceptively large (even I hit minions with it, and I'm pretty familiar with the move, and that minion issue's one of the smaller issues). So in short, even at it's worst - her Q is a Rylai's crystal scepter on the champs who CAN hit 1 skillshot EVERY second. AND when the enemy team finally catches up, you can have your carry back off. They pursue? They line up nice and well for an AOE comparable to Nami's Tidal wave but shorter range and MUCH quicker, and boom, potential snare seeing as Yuumi's R is basically half the width of a freaking lane ( https://youtu.be/TYkvBijQccA?t=116 ). Her E? 574 AP, using {{item:3098}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3041}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3089}} (which is MY late-game NORMAL build unless we need a Morellos), and excluding runes or her teammate's Adaptive gains for her, equals 82.4% decaying MS over 2 seconds. That's a HUGE burst and excellent for juking, engaging, disengaging, etc. (For reference: Sona would give ~48-49% movement speed with the same items. And remember - I am not counting Yuumi's runes or the adaptive force her teammate gives her)! Again, stop thinking about her CC as instant, think about it as zoning with strong benefits and it makes a huge difference. Think Xerath for example, or brand. You don't WANT to get hit, especially repeatedly, by them. It's even worse IF you get hit because it slowly scales out of control (lost HP, CC slowing or snaring you, the speed boosts). If you engage too hard, then you suddenly have that half-a-lane ult to deal with. Her abilities are subtle, I've said this before, and when those subtleties are utilized correctly.. oof.
: > [{quoted}](name=ShinRaigeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6oBMW4G7,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-19T17:16:28.907+0000) > > The Slow is 80% for what, 1.75 seconds during late game? On a what, ~3 second CD after 45% CDR? Think of the root as a massive AOE Zone, use it to split the enemy team and pick their team out accordingly, or to cancel their engage. Even Nami does offer more than that, and only needs to hit her Ult once. > Her heals are, when used at low HPs, absurd. Her Speed boosts hit 80% rather easy. > > Whoever thinks she has no utility is absurdly ignorant of what she does, or HOW to utilize it (more often than not? The latter). I think they mean CC.
> [{quoted}](name=Laufplanke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6oBMW4G7,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-05-19T17:27:53.769+0000) > > Even Nami does offer more than that, and only needs to hit her Ult once. > > I think they mean CC. Nami's ult knockup lasts 0.5 seconds, travels slowly, 10 second longer cooldown, does ~the same Damage as Yuumi's ult, and can be ran away from which leaves plenty more counterplay. I fully understand your point though. Think of Nami's Ult as a 0.5 second stun/snare though, and you realize in reality it's just a giant slow. This is a case of people tunnel visioning on what they're familiar with and not learning to optimize around something new. Sona's ult is closer to what you want to talk about but it's quick and much smaller, meaning it has far less potential and is easier to bait/play around. Also you got to remember: Nami's one of the squishiest supports in the game - 7th lowest at level 1, and 5th lowest at level 18. Yuumi despite having less health (~120 less at 18) is technically vastly tankier as she's invincible until you kill her partner (or ALL her team). (Yes, her Q is strong, but it's also a slow travel time, decent cast time, and takes a short bit for counterplay.)
: The thing is that it is an 80% slow for 1.75 seconds... which seems nice. However, it's not AoE in the slightest so it's moderately useful, but it doesn't penetrate so you're likely slowing the tanks. I'd honestly take the CC from Zyra over Yuumi any day.... and probably any other support really. An ability that slows only one person which can be tanked is honestly quite bad. At least her ult can feel reliably applied, but still... I'd not choose her over anyone like let's say Sona really. I'd never pick her over someone else really.
> [{quoted}](name=Hethalean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6oBMW4G7,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-05-19T17:25:23.022+0000) > > The thing is that it is an 80% slow for 1.75 seconds... which seems nice. However, it's not AoE in the slightest so it's moderately useful, but it doesn't penetrate so you're likely slowing the tanks. > > I'd honestly take the CC from Zyra over Yuumi any day. Zyra's is linear, pierces minions true, but that means you can easily sidestep it. Yuumi can track you into your jungle, follow your flash, and still hit you. Zyra's E is also on a perpetual 12 second CD (6.6 seconds with 45% CDR), meaning it's not always up. Despite being the same range, Yuumi's is just far more efficient in long term cases (higher damage per hit on shorter CD does mean something too, and the ability to curve it means juking it might just be WORSE than simply taking it, unlike Zyra who you juke you win either way, in Yuumi's case you try to juke just to take the hit on the turn anyhow so you didn't gain anything from it). Zyra's E is strong, I ain't saying it's not, but a 1100+ Range (I DO believe it goes further than 1100 considering it moves somewhere around what, 400 or 500 missile speed, and travels for 3 seconds? That's 1200-1500 range effectively) rage-seeking missile up every 2-3 seconds is TERRIFYING to deal with. I've caught out tanked out Garens for my Draven to kill, and the garen couldn't catch my draven because of the MS I gave him. A Zyra? Would just be another food to a tanked out Garen. The AOE people want is excessive, it already does an absurd job zoning, and if not zoning, then chunking HP bars bit by bit.
: There is one QoL Buff i want to see: If Q lasts more than 3 seconds, and hits a target, aoe damage. That's all. She needs SOMETHING in her kit for dealing with waves to some extent. I'm not even saying large aoe Maybe Zoe Q size. The animation is already there. Her heals are fine. Her shields are fine.
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q17AGX1p,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-19T16:15:00.368+0000) > > There is one QoL Buff i want to see: > > If Q lasts more than 3 seconds, and hits a target, aoe damage. > > That's all. She needs SOMETHING in her kit for dealing with waves to some extent. > > I'm not even saying large aoe > > Maybe Zoe Q size. The animation is already there. > > Her heals are fine. Her shields are fine. If she needs a buff anywhere, it's probably her E's cooldown and nothing more. Her Q is absurd, her W is especially absurd (her passive not included as that's STILL absurd), her E is the weakest thing excluding the speed boost and probably the only thing holding her back. It already costs a huge chunk of MP a use. Having it up more would weed out the overambitious healers from the skilled players of her.
: I think they mean CC, she has a slow and a very bad root (takes a while to apply it), that's it.
> [{quoted}](name=Laufplanke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6oBMW4G7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-19T17:13:10.940+0000) > > I think they mean CC and stuff, she has a slow and a very bad root (takes a while to apply it), that's it. The Slow is 80% for what, 1.75 seconds during late game? On a what, ~3 second CD after 45% CDR? Think of the root as a massive AOE Zone, use it to split the enemy team and pick their team out accordingly, or to cancel their engage. Its size is absurd. Her heals are, when used at low HPs, absurd. Her Speed boosts hit 80% rather easy. Whoever thinks she has no utility is absurdly ignorant of what she does, or HOW to utilize it (more often than not? The latter).
: Yuumi's winrate makes sense and does not mean she is bad.
There's some champs that require GREAT teamwork to get the most out of. Their power is built around the whole team not playing like idiots, or utilizing her strength. Yuumi is a Poke champion and a huge zoner. If you don't make use of that, you're not going to win fights. She provides a MASSIVE amount of subtle, nearly invisible bonuses (permanent shield, 1.75 second 80% slow, huge speed buff, huge heals at low health, Snare). Unless you know WHAT she does and play knowing how they'll optimize it, you'll always sit there thinking she's doing nothing. Giving an AD ~70 AD late game isn't doing nothing, you're hitting 70 AD harder, which is absurd on crit+AS champs. AP champs get ~120 AP, your poke's doing WAY more. You're getting a much longer, wider pseudo Sona ult, use that zoning. REALIZE what a YUumi actually brings, and things change.
Kharlon (NA)
: Her profile page is just wrong, she has 0 utility and 1 bar in tankiness. I am not sure who wrote it out, but its so wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=Kharlon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B2w5b95E,comment-id=000600020000,timestamp=2019-05-19T16:49:39.638+0000) > > Her profile page is just wrong, she has 0 utility and 1 bar in tankiness. I am not sure who wrote it out, but its so wrong. 80% Slow for 1.75 Seconds. Provides ~70 AD lategame (~120 AP) to teammate. Has a 1.75 Second snare that deals more damage than Sona's ult for similar AP. Her E provides VASTLY more MS than Sona's and way more actual healing (and her passive shield is not only bigger than Sona's - it's permanent unlike that 1.5 second joke). She has absurd volumes of utlity. Just people don't realize it because it's so subtle. That's her power - subtlety. And because her pokes are stronger and longer range than Sona's Q (this is EXCLUDING Sona's Empowered Auto btw, which is high risk high reward compared to Yuumi's low risk medium reward) you can spend most of a teamfight just poking opponents until they need to back, or flat out force a fight wherein Yuumi's R or Double E burst healing come into play.
: 38% winrate. Underestimated by facts.
> [{quoted}](name=Shiroyashayami,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B2w5b95E,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-05-19T11:23:08.410+0000) > > 38% winrate. Underestimated by facts. 38% winrate which is forcibly pushed down by the fact that people have this odd habit of INTING MORE because they see her, and because of her low winrate, people feel an urge to punish people who play Yuumi because they feel the match is already over, creating a vicious cycle of continuously dropping her winrate because not only do they refuse to realize her power, they refuse to give her the chance and hence throw the match. And as a result of that lane getting fed, they help another lane get fed, this leads to the match becoming nigh unwinnable anyhow to the point Yuumi can't make up the difference anyhow.
: Yuumi canchange the course of a teamfight no more than an ant can stop a tsunamy. Her abilitilies are extremely weak in teamfights. Without her ult, a teamfight is like a 4v5. She is not underrated. she is ok in laning and bad in teamfights and brings little CC.
> [{quoted}](name=Lystrates,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B2w5b95E,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-18T17:54:50.836+0000) > > Yuumi canchange the course of a teamfight no more than an ant can stop a tsunamy. Her abilitilies are extremely weak in teamfights. Without her ult, a teamfight is like a 4v5. > > She is not underrated. she is ok in laning and bad in teamfights and brings little CC. Ever heard of a 1100 Range Poke that is near undodgeable and applies a nearly 2 second 80% slow on a ~3 second cooldown? That's absurd zoning. Not to mention good use of her ult can isolate 1-2 champs from their team allowing for control of a teamfight.
: Yuumi - what people got wrong and tips
Do not give her boots, for crying out loud. She should be On a champion 80% of the time, off to poke 1, maybe two times depending on the target, then W back on a champion. If she's off that long she's either WAY out of position, or the person she's linked to isn't working WITH her, which is something that HAS to be done to get the most out of Yuumi. Those boots aren't going to give much if any real gains compared to a real item. Better to focus on her Q pokes and occasional autos than to constantly stay out of her partner's body. Instead you can go say this: {{item:3092}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3041}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3089}} . The last item can be Morellos, or Void Staff, or a high AP item, it's up to you to figure it out. You could build this item earlier, but this is my usual path. Mejai's is simply there because its cost for 120 AP once fully built is ABSURD Value, and Yuumi shouldn't die much, if at all, making it easy to stack. Grail speaks for itself and synergizes with most of those CDR items. Censer synergizes with Grail and makes her heals/passive stronger. Watcher's is more a filler and you're fine often with Frostfang. Rabadon's is a cap (hah) to your main build with the 6th item going for presuming things are going longterm.
: the thing is that if we're talking single target she also loses to Nami who... isn't single target
I checked, and indeed, Nami's Q does... 5 more damage than Yuumi's at 300 AP (Again, my measuring stick). Nami's E obviously gives more damage than Yuumi's W (but Yuumi's lasts longer and doesn't limit to 3 hits, sooo... eh? I needa check this further). R vs R, Nami's Ult definitely is superior in utility, if a bit less consistent. But Nami also suffers from "Fish in a Barrel" syndrome where a sneeze will kill her xD Edit: Yep. Her W needs better stats probably even more than her E, jeez.
: The only reason I can see her being worse than sona besides her heal being weaker is that she is more difficult to play and doesn't take hits for your ADC. She is heavily teamfight reliant and sona can be effective just by face rolling your keyboard since the only ability that requires you to aim is her ult. People just don't know how to work around Yuumi.
Her heal is weaker per case - if you include Sona's shield (which falls off). Excluding the shield, Sona's heal is... actually quite underwhelming really, in short it won't work well at bringing a weakened champion into fighting condition without needing them to back to apply constant pressure. But yes, I honestly think her heal's the main component that needs tweaking. Yuumi definitely requires a much higher skill floor than Sona. With Sona all her skills auto-fire, and are short range to compensate. But with Yuumi it's a case of needing to control and micromanage timings of not only your own movement (to proc passive) and your teammate's (for Q, Ult, and maybe even jump to a teammate). I think the issue is, people are trying to play her LIKE Sona, and as a result are screwing up. ADCs also just don't know how to play like they're the only one in lane. Which honestly, any good squishy support's doing anyhow. A Soraka nor Sona should be walking anywhere up past their ADC in laning position, in short, for all purposes, unless the enemy team dives, they shouldn't be taking hits to begin with unless they're poking. The whole argument's just inane childish complaints by people who don't realize lanes basically already are 1v2 in an odd way with someone just popping heals and occasional poke in the background. Edit: In case someone forgot, here's the Heals ALONE, no Shields: Sona: 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 25% AP) Yuumi: (Single Charge) Min Healing: 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 (+ 10% AP) Max Healing: 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 / 130 (+ 40% AP) (Double Charge) Min Healing: 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 / 130 ( + 20% AP) Max Healing: 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 / 260 (+ 80% AP) At it's weakest, we're looking at 185 (Sona) vs 180 (Yuumi) at 300 AP. AT MIN HEALING. At MAX healing, it's 185 (Sona) vs 500 (Yuumi) on BOTH charges. (Halve these values for Yuumi for a single charge). LIke I said, if it came down to getting a weak member back into fighting shape quicker, Yuumi does it far better than Sona. She just needs some cooldown tweaks to her E and she's golden.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mkpL9tXm,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-05-15T18:22:03.749+0000) > > You havnt given a single reason why shes objectively worse, just apecific scenarios where shes weaker when she has specific scenarioa where shes stronger. > > Q is a skillshot and needs to be aimed. But it has a larger range, damage and a slow. Sona's Q doesn't miss and its cd and cost is way lower. Yuumi's can be blocked by minions. > Heal only heals one target, but is more powerful. Sona's heal is for herself and one person, so double its value. Also, she shields **for five people** on a way shorter cd than Yuumi's heal charges. > Her shield only shields one person.... But its more powerful with infinite duration. With a cd as short as Sona's, after a bit of mana sustain this point is moot. A constantly refreshing team-wide shield is way better than any other shield in the game. > Her ult doesnt CC immediately and is only a root, but has more damage, longer CC duration, lower CD and larger zone uptime. They can still kill retaliate. They can't retaliate against Sona's. > Shes factually not a weaker sona. Shes not even sona. She's still weaker THAN Sona. That is, if you're looking to use her like you'd use any other enchanter.
> Sona's Q doesn't miss and its cd and cost is way lower. Yuumi's can be blocked by minions. Answer - Yuumi Q is, in SKILLED hands, longer range (hence safer), hits harder on an individual target, and Slows. If you're hitting minions, you got some horrible control of your mouse. > Sona's heal is for herself and one person, so double its value. Also, she shields **for five people** on a way shorter cd than Yuumi's heal charges. Answer - Sona's self heal doesn't count. Why? Because in that essence we'd need to count Yuumi's invulnerability/untargetability, which equates to a heal equivalent to Pyke's that is instantaneous and overrides death. You also forget Sona's shield lasts 1.5 seconds, and without it, her total healing is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than Yuumi's healing, especially her burst healing. > With a cd as short as Sona's, after a bit of mana sustain this point is moot. A constantly refreshing team-wide shield is way better than any other shield in the game. This can be said for Yuumi's too. > They can still kill retaliate. They can't retaliate against Sona's. This can be said for Morgana and Lux's Qs too, yet they're two of the best supports in the game. Lux is more bursty sure, but it's a valid point that in that mentality "they can still kill retaliate them too". > She's still weaker THAN Sona. That is, if you're looking to use her like you'd use any other enchanter. You have yet to explain why she's weaker. Just how she's worse in certain situations. "Weaker" and "more situational" are completely different things. You're in plat, and I expected you to know the difference. Need a clear example? Do you run Blue Kayn normally against a 3 tank/bruiser team? Do you run Galio support all the time? Why not? These are situational conditions. Yuumi thrives as a support to 1 character, Sona as a support to multiples. Yuumi gets more bang for her buck, and Sona thrives more with larger numbers. It's that simple.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Yuumis stats are squishier maybe.... But heres the thing... SHE HAS MORE RANGE AND PERMANENT UNTARGETABILITY. She is, by definition, more durable. Thats like saying "Ezreal Q is weaker than sona Q because its a skillshot". No, no its not. In most cases its better. It synergizes amazingly well with athenes the fuck are you on? Extra heal on heal.... How does that not work? Jesus its like you people are dense or something.... Also, sonas heal is too small to be of any real use in fights, her shield is better. Sonas heals provide more long term healing, but in a real fight yuumis will always be objectively better, given sona can only heal 1 person and is forced to self heal with the other cast. So shes healing for less for practical use cases, where as yuumi doesnt need to self heal as much as she can just W and use a health pot or let herself heal naturally. Seriously, stop being dense. The only time sona is better is her AoE shield and movespeed. Thats it.
I checked the guy up. He's Silver 4, like me. The difference is he seems to be stuck in a Silver mentality where Stuns are everything and snares are horrible. Not that he realizes some of the best champs use snares like Jhin, Jinx, Lee Sin (his ult does Root), Lux, Morgana (A big one!), Nunu (his E), Rengar Enhanced E, Varus ult, and more champs. Nah, this guy is delusional who can't see that his whole arguments rely on situationals which are common in Silver, and ergo anything not in those situations are non-existant. Ah, scrubs.
Kevoskin (NA)
: Yea but over time in lane Sona will heal more. She's healing 2 people at once, and W gives a shield for the aura. Adcs look like they are 1v2ing the lane (even when she's not attached). Now, if her adc got stat boosts for survivability because she was attached to them, that would be useful (similar to ori ball).
She's healing herself and 1 person. In essence, she's just giving herself a 1.5 second shield. In a different view Yuumi's giving herself permanent invulnerability while she heals her teammate. It's really not comparable. The biggest argument you could have given was Sona's 1.5 second shield "music" field. As for ADCs 1v2ing lane? Kinda already a thing. Bard, Mobo Boots Annie, Morg, etc, all roamer supports who go out to gank other lanes. It's entirely a thing. Yuumi's still there, she's still doing damage, she just isn't an extra body to help distract the foe with a juicy target to attack, meaning the ADC's own incompetence on positioning is on full display.
: 1) You're completely ignoring Sona's Q enhances ally hits, and the auto and attack damage base on Sona enables an on hit Lich Bane build. Yuumi's doesn't. You're also ignoring the attack range difference: 500 vs 550. Sona's Q can almost enable a 1 shot. Yuumi's Q tickles. 2) Yuumi's heal is single target. Sona's is 2 targets and doesn't require targetting at all. It prioritizes low Health. Sona's W also synergizes with {{item:3174}} FAR more than Yuumi's, and applies aoe {{item:3504}} , where Yuumi doesn't. Half the cooldown on Sona's W is HUGE. _**Furthermore, Sona's Ult brings her cooldowns down to ONE FOURTH of Yuumi's.**_ ----------------------------- You are comparing Oranges to Apples, and calling them both fruits. Yuumi does not have multiplicative cooldown reductions. Yuumi has no non ult aoe function at ALL Yuumi cannot abuse {{item:3504}} {{item:3174}} {{item:3100}} Yuumi cannot poke other laner into recalling. Yuumi is not a TEAM buffer. Yuumi's Peel/Escape is nonexistent.
1 ) I believe I did list it, but yes, that's a small thing. Oops. (Edit: Oh yeah it was there all along: http://puu.sh/DsMG6/9c615e0142.png ) 2 ) I mentioned in my data that we don't count Sona's heal on herself (as her W heals herself AND the Weakest nearby Champ). Because healing yourself at full (the equivalent of a Yuumi) is still 0. A Support shouldn't be getting hit to begin with unless they're a tank type, and should be tanking blows for their ADC. 2.5 ) You forget that I listed her cooldowns, which are AFFECTED by her ult. Hence why there's only 4 CDs on each of her moves. 3 ) You've never played with a persistent and annoying Yuumi have you? *Pokes you non-stop* That aside, I am not the one comparing an orange to an apple. Everywhere I go (here, Surrender @ 20, etc), people are comparing Yuumi to Sona. I simply laid out the information. But hey, ignore the basic facts that I've covered ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU SAID HERE, in order to make yourself feel intelligent :). I mean ignoring what's said seems to be a specialty for you ^_^
: Yuumi is a worse sona. The q damage you babbled on about was only if it was in the air long enough to become empowered. You also ignore how Sona's q cannot be dodged. Nothing except her ult can be dodged while nearly everything in Yuumi's kit can. Furthermore, the fact that Sona's abilities can affect more than one target at a time gives them more inherent value than anything Yuumi can do. You also completely ignore that Sona has better laning than Yuumi due to her range and reliability.
>In the air long enough If you aren't doing that correctly, you're not playing her right. >Sona's Q Cannot be dodged It can be easily, and I emphasize easily, outranged. It can also still does less damage. Yuumi's Q radius is closer to 1200 units, vs Sona's ~825. >Sona's abilities affect more than one target. I covered that. >Sona has better laning due to her range and reliability Uhh... her Auto's the only thing with longer range... again, Yuumi's Q can maneuver through a massive area. And whenyou're ALWAYS on your 'target', Range doesn't mean much for a heal. (If your jungler is over 1000+ units away, you're either being Zoned or something, thus your Jungler would be derping hard on his engage). ___ Your every statement is just "She sucks". You don't explain WHY that makes her suck more. You state it like you expect it to be accepted as a truth. Soraka heals one target, doesn't make her worse than Sona, for example. If anything you'd compare Yuumi's E to Soraka's W, more likely than not. (Spoiler: Yuumi loses this one super hard).
Rioter Comments
Kevoskin (NA)
: To be fair, I did have a somewhat hard time of hitting it. Without being attached it's almost never going to hit, and when she is attached the range is based on where your adc is. Well my adcs kept running away for the most part and it would disappeared before I could connect with it. The thing about yuumi, is so much of your positioning in lane to do stuff with Q is based off your adc. If you adc isn't on the same page as you, it's gonna be a bad time. Going to take time for adcs to learn how she works along with support players to be able to use her to Max potentional.
See. Here's a thing. I went from League, to Heroes of the Storm, and back. Yuumi is a champ you play WITH, not that you play ALONGSIDE. As ADC you should consider your position relative to Yuumi. You should consider your survival like Yuumi isn't there - aka like when your Bard is roaming (or Annie, or any Mobo boots Support). And I think the idea that the Yuumi isn't actually actively supporting other than the Q poke and otherwise 'invisible' benefits pre-6 have created a stigma that she "does nothing". Her E is stronger than Sona's. Her heal, while weaker, can be used in bursts. (25-65 + 10% AP) to (75-195 + 30% AP) x2. Sona's is 30 to 110 + 25% AP and 25-125(+30% AP) shields for 55 (55% AP) to 235 (55% AP). When you get down to it, Yumi heals MORE (150 - 390 + 60% AP). This is just an example of how people underrate her
Kevoskin (NA)
: Yuumi
Y'know, I stopped rather soon when you said she doesn't Poke well. She can literally ignore the entire minion wave, and force your opponents to move into uncomfortable positions where your ADC can rip 'em a new one else take a Q from Yuumi (which will slowly drive your enemy insane). I don't get where you think her poke's bad. If anything it's the single most broken thing in her kit.
: > [{quoted}](name=iiGazeii,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EAKGuWfA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-15T05:42:00.877+0000) > > You already have to do that. Yuumi's mana sustain is dependent on her passive. She'll quickly go OOM if she doesn't pop out to auto attack every once in a while. But you don't have to leave, and that is the problem I think.
> [{quoted}](name=Smashed Hash,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EAKGuWfA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-15T05:56:30.435+0000) > > But you don't have to leave, and that is the problem I think. You don't have to use Jax's ult stacks to increase his attack speed. You don't have to hit that third Proc for Vi's W. You don't have to auto people with Corki. But you sure as hell SHOULD do so. That's how narrow your mindset is. Edit: You don't HAVE to toss in Autos on Sona. You don't HAVE to Auto to proc with Lux. I could keep adding on and on...
: Yuumi's win rate in plat+ is 30.97 right now.
Honestly I can't tell if its Yuumis misplaying, or the kit is bad. I know I'm only Silver right now, but I've found her burst heal scary strong, especially on Riven and Yi. Having a carry like those regain ~half their HP in a burst is terrifying. I'm... however, absolutely in agreement she needs buffs. A bigger slow on her Q, a higher E heal (VASTLY higher...), make her more comfortable in a niche as a healer instead of a poker, and maybe she'd be useful. Touching her cooldowns won't solve a thing. She needs a full out buff, no 'compensations' or else she'd be in a worse place, if you ask me. At this point over buffing should be the least of their problems.
Rioter Comments
Sunfield (EUNE)
: I said FF is all you need in terms of damage when you play Shyvana. Throw out 90% of your post that talks about Yi and ad itemization. The real reason you take flare on Shyvana is because you get bonus gold, clear camps faster and attack speed. Bonus gold lets you build tank faster, because the most influential Shyvana is a tank Shyvana. No Botrk or Triforce Shyvana. You get ff, get bonus gold, get defenses, destroy mid game. Any other shyvana jungle playstyle is inferior.
> I said FF is all you need in terms of damage when you play Shyvana. Throw out 90% of your post that talks about Yi and ad itemization. The real reason you take flare on Shyvana is because you get bonus gold, clear camps faster and attack speed. Bonus gold lets you build tank faster, because the most influential Shyvana is a tank Shyvana. No Botrk or Triforce Shyvana. You get ff, get bonus gold, get defenses, destroy mid game. > > Any other shyvana jungle playstyle is inferior. Uhh. You heal more from Elder Lizard. You also deal more (to camps) because your W, E, and Q do bonus damage. You also have them up more/faster, meaning faster clears. And you get equal if not superior gold out of conservation (1 gold a second compared to a slightly inferior rate out of the Wriggle line). Sorry, but Flare is just inferior in terms of everything you're describing. Please go do your math, again. PS: While AS is nice on her, it's not exactly crucial. And my point stands that everything Flare can do, it can be subbed out effortlessly for something that does it better. AS? Okay, I'll give Shiv, TF (roughly same AS) or BORK. All give similar amounts of AS and much superior passives/actives. The only. ONLY thing Flare has over the rest is the long-range Green ward.
: I have played as a shyvana with about 480 armor and 4000 health at a full build late game against a yi with no (zero, 0, zip, notta, none) armor pen from runes masteries or items. All it took for him to burst me 100 to 0 was a alpha strike and 2 basic attacks. How can a tank survive with that kind of dmg?
> I have played as a shyvana with about 480 armor and 4000 health at a full build late game against a yi with no (zero, 0, zip, notta, none) armor pen from runes masteries or items. All it took for him to burst me 100 to 0 was a alpha strike and 2 basic attacks. How can a tank survive with that kind of dmg? To do his math for him: That's roughly an 83% Damage reduction is he's telling the truth. The Yi would need to do about 33200 Damage if I'm doing this right to kill Shyv. Let's presume it's BT, IE, Trinity, BORK, Dancer and a 2nd BT or a Maw of Malmortius. 80 + 80 + 30 + 25 + 80/90 (presuming low HP yi and not 1% HP so not a fully powered Maw and speaking pre-change BT at current AD values). Yi has 99 AD at 18. So it's 399 Average (+85 AD for a midway between BT or Maw). With his E passive, this adds 10% to make him 438.9, let's say it's 439 to be clean. Alpha Strike - 165 + 439 = 604. Implying it Crit, that's 439 * .9 (IE modified) = 395.1. Combined that is 999.1 damage for his Q. Now let's include his AAs. Let's presume the first procs double strike. 439 * 2.5 = 1097.5 Damage. Double Strike AA is 439 * .5 * 2.5 = 548.75 Damage. With one final AA that's another 1097.5 Damage. With E on we add another 30 + (20% AD) for 30 + 87.8 = 117.8 Damage (True Damage). We'll multiply this by 3 now for 353.4 damage. And with Trinity Force, we add another 439 * 2 = 878 damage. Now we got BORK's active, which we'll assume was activated for 400 damage. 3600 * .08 = 288 Damage. 3600 - 288 = 3312 3312 * .08 = 264.96 3312 - 264.96 = 3047.04 3047.04 * .08 = 243.76 3047.04 - 243.76 = 2803.28 (This ignores armor calculations and the loss of HP per auto/the Q, so this is VERY favoring Mike's story conditions to make a point...) So, presuming if for some reason BORK dealt TRUE damage on it's active+passives (it don't), he's need to deal about 14.4k Damage in AA alone without Armor Pen to kill Shyv. Sooo his tale's probably exaggerated. As that would norm take a lot more. BUt regardless we can tell that Yi's dealing: 3742.85 AD + 878 (TF damage) = 4621 (rounded) Physical Damage + 353.4 TD (True Damage) for 3 hits. (According to this, the Yi should have done about 1/3rd Mike's HP in Alpha + 2 Normal AAs (including Double Strike). Yeah, Mike's tale is an exaggeration without Armor Pen, but still quite likely that if there was armor pen that it's true. But what is true is that that's an obscene amount of damage >_>; A single Whisper over the Trinity Force probably would have made it as he stated.
Sunfield (EUNE)
: As long as cc is as strong as it is in league, tanks will remain viable and strong. About Shyvana, I still have no problems with her. FF is all the damage you need and mid game is all yours if you get ahead even a little bit.
I don't know where you get that. I've seen a 50 Stack Feral Flare Master Yi lose FLAT OUT to a Lane Master Yi. Like they were equal in skill, but the Feral Flare Yi rediculously fell off since it doesn't really provide any REAL damage. "It provides like 30 Damage + 1 per stack what do you mean!?" Think about that for a second. The only champs that would REALLY benefit out of that are entirely AA Damage based. What Jungler's FULL DAMAGE is exclusively from AA? Not even Yi. And the bonus abilities of Flare -do not- make up for the damage/damage potential lost when compared to items like Youmuu, Whisper, Shiv, etc. Shiv alone provides superior stats AND 10 extra damage per hit. That crit, that AS, that MS, all completely make Shiv alone dwarf the output that Flare could put out. Then there's Skill damage. I assure you, all of Shyv's damage isn't from flare.
: The State of the Imbalance
I could see that, but there is Nunu, Leona, Thresh (to a degree) who are still viable tanks as well (as well as Amumu). The % shreds though do put those 3 very high up there I'll give you that.
Rioter Comments
: The thing I really don't get tho is this: Why throw games over a "non-meta" pick? For example I like running Swain support and I've had adc's literally declare their intent to feed, do so, and them blame the loss on me because I didn't play a "real" support. Is throwing the game really that much more fun than adapting your play style ever so slightly and trying to win? I'm serious, I'd really like someone who dose this kind of thing to answer me: Why would you rather throw the game than just play normally and try to win?
Some people will say even SUPPORTS aren't real supports. I remember using Janna once, and was told she "isn't a real support".
: Gangplank Rework Concept
Short of some of the values (5% Bonus armor? That's... pitiful) I love this. I really do. Big problem I foudn is, this suggestion wants him to be a bruiser (FRONT LINES HOOO!) but nobody who goes front lines (bruisers, tanks) really BUILD crit.
: Community! Tell me your skin ideas.
SUPERHERO GAREN {{champion:86}} (Legendary Skin) -Forgoes the Sword for his awesome fists. -Keeps his bulky appearance complete with Cheesy but awesome Superhero -Now Complete with a flowing cape that just screams out "DEMACIA!" Passive - Now comes off as Super-hero flashy sparkles! Q - Garen uppercuts an enemy champion to the Jaw, his speed boost has him fly through the air like Superman. W - Garen 'bulks up', gaining a very minor increase in visual size but not hitbox. If he's standing still when he does this, he'll flex like a bodybuilder! E - Garen spins in place rapidly, creating a hyper-tornado! R - Garen snaps his fingers and smites evil with his awesome Holy Energy Ray! Example Quote: "Demacia, where Heroes Spin, To Win!"
Fearless (NA)
: > You don't necessarily need to play the new changes if you simply apply mathematics in place instead. Countless people that did not have access still followed the changes and used arithmetic to understand what was happening: > > Power Chord triggers 33% less often Assuming you were casting every ability on CD, sure. Questionable in actual play. > Staccato does 25% less damage, Diminuendo and Tempo are more difficult to apply with differentiated CDs > Changing the CD requires adjustment sure, and there is some lack of access here, yes. > (Not)Auras have 350 range = ~66% less, 75 range less than the shortest ranged champ in the league(Urgot), 200 range less than an average ADC(550) > This is an interesting point of comparison. Given that these auras don't tag enemies, I don't know if it's particularly useful. The aura range has been kept conservative compared to previous auras or item auras, but that allows for them to have a lot more impact/power. > Hymn gives ~50% less strength to your ADC, 100% less to most mages and probably some small percent less to the front line as well(assuming you can give it to them without dying) I'm really interested to see how you calculated this. Looking at level 9, Q aura previously gave each ally 20 AP/AD. It now grants 90 magic damage, not counting her AP ratio. Outside of Kog or Trist, who can actually use some of the AP, that takes 5 auto attacks to beat out the new Q, assuming Sona has 0 AP. Saying that the new Q bonus can't be used by mages or front liners is pretty situational. Plenty of our mid laners either have strong incentives to use autos, while admitted some will not. I'll fully admit that Anivia + Sona isn't as powerful. Sona having a more strategic place in game generally allows us to make her better at the things that she does. > > Aria heals less ranks 1 and 2, can become even ~3 and finally comes back at 4, shield duration is too short, debatable if stronger than +20 defense, but again won't benefit the front line unless you feed a kill This ignores entirely the missing health scaling. Max heal on the ability is greatly increased over pre-update Sona > > Celerity has higher base and scaling, but without the passive MS breaks even for those 1.5 seconds, then falls off when it ends This is only true for very limited segments of the game, and definitely not true for Sona herself. Because E grants %MS, this ability gets stronger as people start buy boots, upgrading them, etc. That being said, giving it power in cases of engaging and disengaging over roaming was intended. It goes back to if Sona should being maintaining her team or empowering them. Obviously the current thought leans very heavily towards moments of empowerment. > > "Some buffs" ain't gonna cut it, as the numbers show. It's going to take buffs across the board solely to bring her back to her original strength and even then people won't have forgotten what happened. Obviously, we don't agree in our analysis, but I do really appreciate a post that clearly reflected your thoughts and laid out where your frustrations came from. I hope you actually give the Update a chance and try it out in a game.
And I'm posting this seperate so you could get this since it's especially important fearless: it seems that this whole "rework" only thinks that there's a laning phase, and what it 'gave' only favors the laning phase (and it barely does that). It does not favor teamfights, it does not favor enemy team all inning, it does not favor any form of scuffle involving multiple members as a support. She cannot truly peel without getting off her W or E Power Chords (now less likely to occur) or her ult (nearing full teamfighting phase by this point). She cannot help push winning a teamfight without getting close to her allies, and the benefits does not aid mages during teamfights like her old Q passive She cannot aid faster moving champions with her E as she cannot get close to them (old E didn't really have this problem) to get them in the aura. Her W does not help teammates really survive burst damage, which is more important as most teamfights end within 3-10 seconds. And the aura will be down before the 2nd burst (after killing the first priority target(s). Generally, the whole entire kit no longer cares for teamfights, it only cares for laning phase, and hence she's lost her identity as a "Support" in the traditional sense. To make it worse for her, she can't even aid her laner well. She has low Armor and health, the bottom 5 champs in both cases at both level 1 and at level 18. This means she'll be priority to kill and abort (and a popular target for Leona, Thresh, and Blitzcrank all ins) for the ADC to get fed and win lane. In these cases she won't be PERMITTED to get her W off, and it won't matter, that barrier will be down before they shift their attention from her (now dead) to the ADC due to the low duration (1.5 seconds vs Morgana's 5 seconds *cough*). Essentially, Sona just... can't 'win' now without the player being that much better than the enemy team. She isn't geared well or scaled well.
Fearless (NA)
: > You don't necessarily need to play the new changes if you simply apply mathematics in place instead. Countless people that did not have access still followed the changes and used arithmetic to understand what was happening: > > Power Chord triggers 33% less often Assuming you were casting every ability on CD, sure. Questionable in actual play. > Staccato does 25% less damage, Diminuendo and Tempo are more difficult to apply with differentiated CDs > Changing the CD requires adjustment sure, and there is some lack of access here, yes. > (Not)Auras have 350 range = ~66% less, 75 range less than the shortest ranged champ in the league(Urgot), 200 range less than an average ADC(550) > This is an interesting point of comparison. Given that these auras don't tag enemies, I don't know if it's particularly useful. The aura range has been kept conservative compared to previous auras or item auras, but that allows for them to have a lot more impact/power. > Hymn gives ~50% less strength to your ADC, 100% less to most mages and probably some small percent less to the front line as well(assuming you can give it to them without dying) I'm really interested to see how you calculated this. Looking at level 9, Q aura previously gave each ally 20 AP/AD. It now grants 90 magic damage, not counting her AP ratio. Outside of Kog or Trist, who can actually use some of the AP, that takes 5 auto attacks to beat out the new Q, assuming Sona has 0 AP. Saying that the new Q bonus can't be used by mages or front liners is pretty situational. Plenty of our mid laners either have strong incentives to use autos, while admitted some will not. I'll fully admit that Anivia + Sona isn't as powerful. Sona having a more strategic place in game generally allows us to make her better at the things that she does. > > Aria heals less ranks 1 and 2, can become even ~3 and finally comes back at 4, shield duration is too short, debatable if stronger than +20 defense, but again won't benefit the front line unless you feed a kill This ignores entirely the missing health scaling. Max heal on the ability is greatly increased over pre-update Sona > > Celerity has higher base and scaling, but without the passive MS breaks even for those 1.5 seconds, then falls off when it ends This is only true for very limited segments of the game, and definitely not true for Sona herself. Because E grants %MS, this ability gets stronger as people start buy boots, upgrading them, etc. That being said, giving it power in cases of engaging and disengaging over roaming was intended. It goes back to if Sona should being maintaining her team or empowering them. Obviously the current thought leans very heavily towards moments of empowerment. > > "Some buffs" ain't gonna cut it, as the numbers show. It's going to take buffs across the board solely to bring her back to her original strength and even then people won't have forgotten what happened. Obviously, we don't agree in our analysis, but I do really appreciate a post that clearly reflected your thoughts and laid out where your frustrations came from. I hope you actually give the Update a chance and try it out in a game.
> > You don't necessarily need to play the new changes if you simply apply mathematics in place instead. Countless people that did not have access still followed the changes and used arithmetic to understand what was happening: > > > > Power Chord triggers 33% less often > > Assuming you were casting every ability on CD, sure. Questionable in actual play. Questionable? not at all. Because it's triggering less often, Sona's ability to deal out her W and E abilities' Power Chords, much less the Q (which made her great for helping take out turrets!) is effectively cut down by a huge amount. She can no longer Slow or Reduce the enemy's damage significantly anymore. > > > (Not)Auras have 350 range = ~66% less, 75 range less than the shortest ranged champ in the league(Urgot), 200 range less than an average ADC(550) > > > > This is an interesting point of comparison. Given that these auras don't tag enemies, I don't know if it's particularly useful. The aura range has been kept conservative compared to previous auras or item auras, but that allows for them to have a lot more impact/power. It is extremely useful. Why? because the closer you got to be to your ADC, the closer you got to be to their ADC. If the distance isn't that large between you and your ADC, you'll end up being bursted down near instantly. I cannot count how easily it was pre-rework for a Leona to all in you with a Lucian or Tristana, and you'd be either automatically dead, or on your way back to the base with 10 HP. The size of the aura is -insanely- important for survivability, which Sona needs a lot as as the squishiest support in the game (sans Zilean, who doesn't even see common use as Support anymore, probably because of the same reason). In fact, due to the obscene kill potential bottom lane constantly is anti-squishy supports (hence the prevalence of Thresh, Braum, Leona, Morg...) > > Hymn gives ~50% less strength to your ADC, 100% less to most mages and probably some small percent less to the front line as well(assuming you can give it to them without dying) > > I'm really interested to see how you calculated this. Looking at level 9, Q aura previously gave each ally 20 AP/AD. It now grants 90 magic damage, not counting her AP ratio. Outside of Kog or Trist, who can actually use some of the AP, that takes 5 auto attacks to beat out the new Q, assuming Sona has 0 AP. Saying that the new Q bonus can't be used by mages or front liners is pretty situational. Plenty of our mid laners either have strong incentives to use autos, while admitted some will not. I'll fully admit that Anivia + Sona isn't as powerful. Sona having a more strategic place in game generally allows us to make her better at the things that she does. Because the aura does apply for more than 1 attack, it actually scales better in overall damage. And in mid-late game, those AP ratios help THE WHOLE TEAM, -very- important as a support. > > Aria heals less ranks 1 and 2, can become even ~3 and finally comes back at 4, shield duration is too short, debatable if stronger than +20 defense, but again won't benefit the front line unless you feed a kill > > This ignores entirely the missing health scaling. Max heal on the ability is greatly increased over pre-update Sona This scaling's negligible, if non-existant in a way. The loss of armor for a shield actually doesn't help much either except versus DOT damage (ignite, Trist E). And that's simply because you can put it down during the damage to mitigate a majority of it, wherein with burst if you're even a 10th of a second late, your ADC can be dead (happened to my duo partner too much, Akalis and all that)
: I've only worked alongside new Sona as I neither own nor play her. That said her E actually looks like it makes people go faster now. Old E didn't even visually register. It looked like it did nothing. I have seen nothing bad from new update, but I haven't played it. Just worked along side it.
> I've only worked alongside new Sona as I neither own nor play her. That said her E actually looks like it makes people go faster now. Old E didn't even visually register. It looked like it did nothing. > > I have seen nothing bad from new update, but I haven't played it. Just worked along side it. The old E was up quite often in comparison, and you could buff your team basically as long as they were on screen (roughly 1000 range). The Old E sent out blue waves that smacked into allies and buffed their speed. And it was very noticeable if you were the sona.
: I tried out the new Sona and there's things I like and things I don't like. Things I like: 1.) I do like the shield on her W, I feel like that makes it a bit more useful because you can give a shield to potentially everyone. 2.) I think she looks much better (except for her blue eyes which should be brown : I ) 3.) I kinda like the Magic Damage added onto basic attack with her Q. Things I don't like/miss: 1.) I miss the passive AD/AP on her Q. I always liked using it to help take down towers a bit more quickly. 2.) The ranges of these auras are really small. I feel like I have to get practically right up next to someone to give them a speed boost/heal. It's really annoying that I can't help someone escape/chase because they're right outside my little aura bubble. 3.) Her ult feels so much smaller now, I realize that's a kinda meh thing to complain about, but it just feels less satisfying for some reason.
> I tried out the new Sona and there's things I like and things I don't like. > Things I like: > 1.) I do like the shield on her W, I feel like that makes it a bit more useful because you can give a shield to potentially everyone. -While it feels more useful, 10 Armor (max level) if I remember = effectively 150 to 300 additional HP to your whole team within range. Excluding the superior heal from before... > 2.) I think she looks much better (except for her blue eyes which should be brown : I ) -True > 3.) I kinda like the Magic Damage added onto basic attack with her Q. -Agreed, but as you said... > Things I don't like/miss: > 1.) I miss the passive AD/AP on her Q. I always liked using it to help take down towers a bit more quickly. -I miss it because it actually helped my ADC on last hitting/etc. Helped prevent minor incidents. > 2.) The ranges of these auras are really small. I feel like I have to get practically right up next to someone to give them a speed boost/heal. It's really annoying that I can't help someone escape/chase because they're right outside my little aura bubble. -Same > 3.) Her ult feels so much smaller now, I realize that's a kinda meh thing to complain about, but it just feels less satisfying for some reason. -To be honest? It always seemed smaller than it looked at times it felt like... seems like Rito can't make up their minds.
: Her ult didn't recieve any change, so you're wrong there. Her Q got buffed. Her W got nerfed as a sustain tool, but got buffed as an anti-burst spell. This spell is the only one that changed it's purpose from old sona. Her E got nerfed in range but buffed in power. Her passive did get nerfed a bit. I wouldn't say she got nerfed. They changed some things around if anything. If they feel like she needs power, they will give power to her, so don't worry too much about that.
Her Ult levels provide bonuses to her Q, W, and E. Or did you COMPLETELY ignore the passive bonus it gives (+10/20/30 magic damage for Hymn of Valor +10/20/30 extra shield for Aria of Perseverance +2%/4%/6% move speed for Song of Celerity ). Her Q overall got nerfed, adding damage to the Q itself does not counteract how hard it affects the passive, which actually was BETTER by leagues before (makes last hitting easier as well as harass), which actually SUPPORTED the ADC Her W was a better anti-burst before. Adding Armor and Magic Resistances did better cancelling burst especially late game (150-300 Effective HP via Armor bonus, not to mention superior heal. Sona has no reason to have, what, 750 AP in order to give a shield of 300 HP?). Her E's Range nerf -kills- her. She can no longer safely save her allies without putting them at risk between the HEAVILY nerfed W and E. And overall, her power levels still **do not** compare to top supports. Nami's power comes from the fact she contains a level 1-5 CC - her Q. Morg's power comes from a level 1-5 CC too - Her Q Leona's power comes from her tankiness and her E-Q Braum's power as a support comes from his Q and passive. Thresh's power comes from his Q and E, both excellent for securing kills. Blitzcrank's power is his Q, yet again, a powerful CC effect, and his E, which deals good damage and hard CC. What does Sona have? Her Ult. Her Q (40-200 + 50%AP)) per target does less than a Morgana's (80-300 +90%AP), the fact Morgana gets a 2 second snare makes better results than a measly 40-110 (+25% AP) damage buff for a single hit. (This ignores the skilshot and 1st hit flaws on Morgana. I know that's a benefit on paper for Sona, but trust me in practice it won't end that way most of the time). Her Heal? Is -still- meager. The shield does not do what people think it does against burst (proven in actual matches, not in theorycrafting, my old W would save the team better than this new one). **And even if it did,** the problem exists the enemy could burst down Sona in 5 hits if not less (a very real problem existant since old Sona) and take out her teammates anyhow now since her Aura's even more situational now compared to before (and I will note, yes, a barrier based on an aura is situational compared to a flat out armor/mr buff). Her Speed boost is stronger, but again, Sona has to put herself, the squishiest support, at heavy risk to give it. And yes, Sona Is THE squishiest even now: less Armor than Nami, Less MHP than Nami (1640 HP vs 1697). EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: INCREASED CDs on EVERYTHING effectively makes all her skills WEAKER, buffs or not!
: Sona's Rework - Discussion thread
As someone who's mained Sona since getting together with a Duo partner (and we've been creaming botlanes with a MF-Sona combo), I have to say this is about the biggest piece of **** riot's done with a champion since I joined (aatrox/Spirit Guard Udyr updates). Sona's generally just unplayable now. The enhanced CDs, the weakened everything, I get they wanted to cut down the invisible bonuses, but at the same time they gutted her hard. Before she was having trouble standing on the level of Leonas, Morgannas, Braums, Threshes. Morganna's the squishiest of those, and she's still infinitely more tanky than Sona, while packing 2 HEAVY CCs (Q and R), and **OLAF'S GOD DAMN ULTIMATE ON HER BLOODY E!** And yet for some reason, Morganna's the one immune to the nerfs while Sona gets a whole rework to her system? Sona's not the one seeing use in a majority of normal, ranked, and LCS games now-a-days. It's Morganna. It's not Sona in all of those, it's Leona. It's not Sona in all of those, it's Braum. It's thresh. **IT. IS. NOT. SONA.** Sona requires a huge buff now, because as usual Riot undertuned her. Her W is pathetic now. I mean, it was pathetic before, it took a LOT even with my usual build (Lich/Frost Queen/Athene's/Sorc Boots/Rabadon/Archangel) to heal up one member of my team **Decently**. Now I might as well not get W. When my ally was down to 25% health, my Level 2 W did -nothing- drastic to save my Jinx from an all in **while she was at full health** from a Lucian+Leona. Shield and all, it wasn't enough. What's worse is, that if you don't time your W until after the first hit, then the heal's wasted and all they get is a shield! BUT if you don't shield as they're initiating, then they just smack down ignite or Grievous wounds (Tristana for example) anyhow. **It's now a no-win situation for the Sona as her W's driven to obscurity**. Her E is even more pathetic really, the cooldown's obscene and requires you to be rediculously close to give it to your teammates. In fact, **most people I speak to say they didn't even get her E before as it was, and it had some huge range back then and was vastly weaker. Why would they get E now that it's range is rediculously small and puts you at risk of feeding?** You can't even get her passive off reliably anymore or fuel her Tear/Archangel anymore as well as you use to. Her Q... I don't want to go here. The values are undertuned, and in some respects, it was **already** undertuned considering the fact this is a tank heavy meta (up to 3 tanks at any time - Support, Jungle, Top). Now it just feels useless and she can't deal anywhere near reliable poke, which is Sona's core identity. Poke Down, Ult in, Eat GP's oranges and laugh at him. Her ult's the only thing 'buffed', but that Buff is an excuse to ruin her identity.
: Why Sona's rework is a failure - A discussion about identity
As someone who's mained Sona since getting together with a Duo partner (and we've been creaming botlanes with a MF-Sona combo), I have to say this is about the biggest piece of **** riot's done with a champion since I joined (aatrox/Spirit Guard Udyr updates). Sona's generally just unplayable now. The enhanced CDs, the weakened everything, I get they wanted to cut down the invisible bonuses, but at the same time they gutted her hard. Before she was having trouble standing on the level of Leonas, Morgannas, Braums, Threshes. Morganna's the squishiest of those, and she's still infinitely more tanky than Sona, while packing 2 HEAVY CCs (Q and R), and **OLAF'S GOD DAMN ULTIMATE ON HER BLOODY E!** And yet for some reason, Morganna's the one immune to the nerfs while Sona gets a whole rework to her system? Sona's not the one seeing use in a majority of normal, ranked, and LCS games now-a-days. It's Morganna. It's not Sona in all of those, it's Leona. It's not Sona in all of those, it's Braum. It's thresh. **IT. IS. NOT. SONA.** Sona requires a huge buff now, because as usual Riot undertuned her. Her W is pathetic now. I mean, it was pathetic before, it took a LOT even with my usual build (Lich/Frost Queen/Athene's/Sorc Boots/Rabadon/Archangel) to heal up one member of my team **Decently**. Now I might as well not get W. When my ally was down to 25% health, my Level 2 W did -nothing- drastic to save my Jinx from an all in **while she was at full health** from a Lucian+Leona. Shield and all, it wasn't enough. What's worse is, that if you don't time your W until after the first hit, then the heal's wasted and all they get is a shield! BUT if you don't shield as they're initiating, then they just smack down ignite or Grievous wounds (Tristana for example) anyhow. **It's now a no-win situation for the Sona as her W's driven to obscurity**. Her E is even more pathetic really, the cooldown's obscene and requires you to be rediculously close to give it to your teammates. In fact, **most people I speak to say they didn't even get her E before as it was, and it had some huge range back then and was vastly weaker. Why would they get E now that it's range is rediculously small and puts you at risk of feeding?** You can't even get her passive off reliably anymore or fuel her Tear/Archangel anymore as well as you use to. Her Q... I don't want to go here. The values are undertuned, and in some respects, it was **already** undertuned considering the fact this is a tank heavy meta (up to 3 tanks at any time - Support, Jungle, Top). Now it just feels useless and she can't deal anywhere near reliable poke, which is Sona's core identity. Poke Down, Ult in, Eat GP's oranges and laugh at him. Her ult's the only thing 'buffed', but that Buff is an excuse to ruin her identity.
: I'll get it once they end the stream and review the stream. I was gonna screenshot but I was too focused on watching it to try to make out the champ.
It was Zed's splash, m'bad. But for fun in case I'm wrong: http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/b/548753691 4:58:48 roughly.
: Revealed next Champ?
I'll get it once they end the stream and review the stream. I was gonna screenshot but I was too focused on watching it to try to make out the champ.
: Yeah there are quite a few things that go against that design value. It's just odd that they put that there specifically to let us know how they think about making decisions, but constantly make decisions that contradict it.
> Yeah there are quite a few things that go against that design value. It's just odd that they put that there specifically to let us know how they think about making decisions, but constantly make decisions that contradict it. Don't forget Tristana. "We acknowledge she's in a weird position" - Referring to her being an ADC whose skills scale on AP. First changes to her? "Let's make her Q not cost mana. OOH and let's boost the range on her ult equal to her passive."
: I think they are failing to realize that one of the best things about this game is it's malleability. The fact that so many champs are not forced into one specific role is a great thing, and doing things like this only gradually makes the game have less and less options. It's hard to say what they are thinking with stuff like this, as they do tend to go against what they say somewhat often. The Design Values blog said "Instead of offering a best path forward, we want to offer different paths forward that have real tradeoffs. Players should see changes that reflect this philosophy when we introduce strategic tradeoffs for emergent strategies, not because they're new and unique, but usually because they're dominating the scene.". So, if this is true, why keep shoehorning champs into one role? The blog also says: "Whether a player wants an assassin that waits for the perfect engage or a tank that fights when he pleases, we want to present a wide selection of champions that can deliver on a variety of distinct roles." Did they just mean a variety of roles, but only one per champion? I feel like that blog is making less and less sense over time, because if these were really the things they see as the most important, they wouldn't go against them so often. Another great example is the design value "A fight loses its excitement if the first punch wins – it's what you can do after that adds depth and complexity.". If that were true, then Blitz/Thresh grabs shouldn't end fights the vast majority of the time they land, and I think someone like Fizz blows that sentence away as soon as he gets ahead.
Your last paragraph confuses me too. Blitz, Thresh, Morgana, Amumu, Orianna, all of these are not exactly high skill (see: Gragas ult) but can completely change a teamfight into an instant win. Morgana's Q just lasts forever, effectively a kill, and it sets up her ult for a single target assassinate. Not to mention her shield. No offense but **WHY IS OLAF'S ULT PUT ON A BEEFY AS CRAP SHIELD THAT IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK WITHOUT A 3-4 AP CHAMP TEAM!?** (Olaf's ult is more acknowledged as a giant CC negator than anything if you were to ask me from my talks with friends).
Rioter Comments
MrSc0tty (NA)
: It's a case of somewhat irritating double standards. If, say, Renekton and melee bruisers with strong kill potential early force out oh, let's say every tank in the game from toplane-then that's the natural Metagame. But if a "support" goes and competes ANYWHERE (lulu mid, Soraka top, Alistar jungle, Janna ADC ) then it immediately gets targeted nerfs to "bring it in line ". Then, because every support is too undertuned to work anywhere else, any time something goes botlane that beats them, it gets the bat (Fidds Zyra Annie) The other class with "the protection of Riot" is the precious AD carry. Anything that creates a game where there is a successful comp without an AD carry, or anything that counters ad carries well enough to reliably kill them gets a heavy nerf.
Exactly my point. It feels like Riot has some sort of damned crazy double standard. I don't think they themselves are even seeing that they're controlling the meta and trying to restrain it. If a champion can go multiple positions great, but why punish a champion for it? It means that lane needs to change it's own meta to match. Yet god forbid, Always Nerf Irelia, don't nerf Renekton though!
Rioter Comments
: [Art] Gnarr, The Harvester
Looks like one of the MP EVAs from End of Evangelion... TOO much so.
SirTezla (NA)
: Story Behind Your Name
"ShinRaigeki" is just to hide who I normally am known as on the net. Shin means "God" or "True", depending on the Kanji in Japanese. Raigeki is split into two parts: "Rai" being "Lightning", "Geki" being "attack" or "Strike". So it comes out to "True/God Lightning Strike". My NORMAL Alias are "Katoma" and "Vartio". Katoma being based on a custom language I made when I was younger for RPs, which meant "Four Souled Warrior". "Vartio" was just meant to sound European, pronounced in a shakespearian fashion (Var-shi-oh). Ironically. Vartio means "Guardian" in Finnish I believe. Yay.
: have the bush sight be only for you, make it available only to champs that come standard with a hunters machete as a starting item to prevent stacking. give it a five minute cd like flash to prevent spamming, and have slaughter only proc on enemy camps so that way you have to counter jungle. I get the idea of the items, and I like the diversity, but it grants some junglers too much in the jungle, just think that a rengar is in the top bush on the blue side above red just waiting with out a ward in the side to hop on the jungler that drags it in there because he can see into it.
>make it available only to champs that come standard with a hunter's machete as a starting item to prevent stacking Eh. Would be hard for Riot to impliment such a concept. There's a reason I effectively made it a far more expensive Ruby Sightstone with less warding ability and made it require stacks to activate the ability post-purchase. Slaughter change sounds good. However I'll change it up a bit to make it more restricting so that they have to be more careful. I'll change the NIGHT VISION into an Active that lasts let's say... 5 seconds, with a minute cooldown?
: Increase Zoom Out on Fixed Camera View
I agree whole heartedly. While I am a locked player, one huge problem which I bet even unlocked run into is players who try to run pokey champs who just kite from within the HUD in order to get free attacks in. This shuts down champs like Udyr, Pantheon, etc whose damage relies on "auto-fire" attacks (like Panth's Q). Not only that, but really, it REALLY hurts ADCs. I've become so used to locked, I can't really GET USED to Unlocked, and as someone said: when you got to add flicking your mouse every 3 seconds it gets even worse.
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ShinRaigeki

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