Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 4
I have almost one million mastery points with Garen on my main account. I think it's important to make some remarks about the Garen's rework. First, I think you should identify the characteristics of the champion's history/fantasy that you wish to strengthen. Garen is a kind of fighter (titan-juggernaut) with one target "burst" damage, with soft crowd control, low mobility, that can mitigate a relative amount of damage (the various forms of true damage in the game make it no longer as efficient as a tank), and sustain only out of battle. In theory juggernauts should be champions with more DPS damage, some form of sustain in fight, with hihg tankiness, and strong duelists. The forms of sustain in the fight are lifesteal (Darius, Yorick, Illaoi), great life regeneration (Dr. World, Volibear), or through shields (Skarner, Mordekaiser, Urgot). Garen has none of these forms. Their ability to sustain in the fight means they can win a fight against more than one opponent. But Garen is a strange character, he doesn't have many of these main features of the class to which he belongs (sustain during the fight, dps damage, ability to duel against more than one person, and has more mobility than others, and less crowd control). Why isn't he in a good time today? He can't tank like last season, can't access the "villains" to kill them, doesn't have enough wave clear (like the other juggernauts that can clear a minion wave with a Q - Darius, for example.Garen can use all spins from his E that can't kill the crips. Not considering that Darius's Q lasts for half a second, and Garen's E takes three seconds to do all damage. As a result, Garen can't clean the jungle camps either. Another important factor is that Garen's classmates have some form of different damage: either they have damage based on the enemy's maximum life (Mordekaisers passive, Voli E), or an immediate form of defense reduction (Darius E passive, Mordenkaiser E). Garen has no damage based on maximum health (except the ultimate), and to reduce the enemy's armor he must hit a minimum amount of spins(which is his main source of damage). That is, he must use his ability which is his main source of damage to reduce the enemy's armor. But by the time he manages to reduce his armor, this ability that is his main source of damage will be over (on cooldown). Of course there is also a difference in intent in these abilities: In the Darius and Mordekaiser states, defense reduction only counts for themselves, while Garen reduces enemy armor to the benefit of the entire team. He can no longer face neither tanks nor fighters. And his passive does not keep him in the lane, which would be his way to gain advantage to be able to generate pressure on the map and try to win a match. In its current form, it must wait for its level 11 passive to evolve before it can enter the game. For all these things Garen left the top lane and went to the mid lane, and even the bot lane (with Yumi). Currently, Garen is played as a strange kind of assassin that only kills one target and has no escape, depending only on its durability and resistances to get out alive. And that escapes the definition of asassin in League (assassins should have or stealth, or evasiveness, ou mobility). In addition to this form of play, Garen can also be thought of as a tank that has no extraordinary abilities (such as magic, or special powers). The only thing that makes him different is his inexorable will that makes him never give up fighting (perfectly represented in the game by his passive). The other distinguishing feature of him is his way of fighting: spin2win. While this has become a meme, it is also a force to reinforce his inexorable will (since even when he gets some kind of crowd control, he doesn't stop fighting and keeps spinning). Having identified these three main characteristics of the champion, you must choose which path to explore. Pros and cons of each. Admitting that he is a "assassin duelist" would be one possibility. Although it is played this way, I do not believe that is its main feature in the fantasy of the champion. Moreover, he would look very different from all the other characters (both the killers and the fighters). Another way would be to stimulate the spin2win aspect (that's what you tried to do, allowing Garen's E to cause on hit effects). And you saw the disastrous effect it would have on the game. Another possibility would be to increase his ability to tank damage. You are trying to do this by generating a shield for him based on your maximum life. It's an interesting possibility, but it would be one more feature (besides the ultimate) that would be based on something almost magical (a shield that appears from nowhere). Also, this makes it the same as all other tanks in the game that have a maximum life based shield .... Workarounds Decrease the duration of the silence at start of the match and increase slightly at the end. Q Levels: 1 / 1.2 / 1.4 / 1.6 / 1.8 / 2 second silence. Making armor penetration an E passive ability, or a passive scaling per tic hability (like Darius, Mordekaiser, etc); or cause the armor penetration to increase based in the number of spins; or cause increased spins to deal damage based on the enemy's maximum health (from 5 hits, causes 1% of target maximum health per hit). Cause Garen's W active to reduce all damage type (including true damage) creating a new category in the game (something like “ignoring damage”, that applies on true damage), and reduces the passive defenses stack. By creating these different staggering paths (more silence time or more armor penetration) you would allow the champion to have more gameplay depth and to choose which skill to evolve first would most deeply impact the character. I have only shown a few simple modifications that can be further explored. For example, is it preferable that Garen be a champion that brings more benefits to a team fight by reducing the armor of all enemies, or is it preferable that he be played more as a splitpusher? Is it possible to combine these two possibilities without making the character very powerful? It would be ideal ... Anyway, let's debate. But I think this update that is ready to be released in the next patch for the character is not the best way to go.
: Early 9.10 Patch Discussion
Detail: 3.6 seconds cdr, and isn't URF.....
: oh yeah i totally forgot that Riven is the only champ in the whole game that has a shield that scales on her offensive stat {{champion:99}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:240}} obviously dont count
> [{quoted}](name=DarkSpiritslayer,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=82cE8haV,comment-id=00de0001,timestamp=2019-04-28T19:08:38.179+0000) > > oh yeah i totally forgot that Riven is the only champ in the whole game that has a shield that scales on her offensive stat > > {{champion:99}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:240}} obviously dont count The only with 100% scaling with 3.6 cdr...
: Early 9.10 Patch Discussion
Riot says items like atma's impaler are not fair, as they converted life into damage. It is not fair to convert defense into attack. So we have Riven that converts 100% of her physical damage into a shield. Converts ATTACK DAMAGE to DEFENSE, with 100% (ONE HUNDRED PERCENTE) efficiency. REALLY seems fair ..
: Dear Riot, I heavily implore you to not make any changes to Riven's kit. Riven has in the past few years not been out of line, but suddenly she's had a spike in her win-rates. No major changes were made to her numbers, but new items and runes have been introduced which coincidentally all work very well on her as well as champions she's directly afraid of being nerfed. Riven does not do well into Renekton, he just got nerfed, the same is the case for Kennen. I urge you to look further into the statistics to explain why she is in her current state rather than assuming it's the champion being out of line. If you nerf the things that currently make Riven strong, while not changing her after the nerfs, she will be unplayable as she will have none of the things she has now. There are currently no real match-ups that are bad for Riven because of the immense sustain provided from the resolve tree as well as the buffs you gave her with health regen. Riven SHOULD NEVER be able to sustain through a Jayce lane, but the changes to the game and around her have made her too healthy early on. Reverting the health regen buff you gave her a few patches ago would be one step to improving the window in which you can punish her mistakes early. Riven scales too well into late-game as a result of the death's dance + Conq + Spear of Shojin. This is once again not because of her kit, but because of the tools you have provided her over time. Riven can proq Conqueror within a second with the doublecast e - aa+w+q combo. This is of course not good, as it provides an extra death's dance healing effect on top of death's dance, providing her lifesteal on everything she has while also taking less damage because of Death's dance' passive. No bruiser should be able to sustain that much through a fight, but as established, Riven wouldn't be able to do this if it wasn't for the string of buffs to Death's dance and the new conqueror. Spear of Shojin adds insult to injury as it makes every tank match-up obsolete late-game as she can just run them down with no problems. Riven's kit synergizes very well with all these items, but it doesn't make her rework-worthy. I suggest nerfing the lifesteal that conqueror provides, so it doesn't make her unkillable. Maybe also change Death's dance' damage reduction so it isn't as potent, or perhaps make it only work on physical damage so bursty mages have a better match-up, like you did with Irelia's W. This would make her mid/late-game teamfights harder to sustain through without damaging the kit that so many players have come to love. Finally, I will argue from a pathos point of view. I am a Riven main. Like many other players out there, I have come to fall in love with the immensely unique gameplay that Riven provides. There is quite literally nothing like her anywhere else, so league of legends is the one place that can provide me with exactly the kind of character I love the most. I currently sit around 1.8 million mastery points across all accounts I have, but this only reflects the amount of time I've spent inside online matches. As we all are aware, mastering Riven is quite the task because of the mechanically taxing combos and animation cancels you have to rapidly switch through in your head in order to play a fight or trade optimally. The amount of time I have spent in practice tools or custom games, just practicing all the different combos and cancels that the character has, just because I loved doing it and improving on the character I had so much fun with playing is insane, and it would cast a shadow on the amount of time I've spent playing any other champion. The effort and passion I've poured into practice as well as playing her in PVP is time that I won't get back, but I don't regret a single second of it, cause it's been the most fun I've ever had with a video-game, if not in my life all-together. To see all of that practice and time become essentially moot, as a rework would remove the goal that I've tried to accomplish for about four years of my life now, it would be a crushing blow. All of the time that I, and other Riven mains out there have spent working on our craft. Taking that away would make many of us very upset. I've looked through comment sections here and there and I see multiple people saying how they'd quit league if you were to rework Riven, how she is the only reason they play League of Legends. I have to agree with them, as I don't find the same joy out of the game without being able to play Riven. It would devastate many loyal fans of your game and surely hurt the community overall. I don't speak only for myself when I ask you to not make changes to her kit. As such, I once again implore you to not make any changes to how her kit works and keep the kit as it is. A few changes can be made, which would make her less frustrating to play against and it would increase the skill-cap required to play Riven. They're listed below; - Revert health regen changes so she is easier to punish early - Nerf conqueror heal to prevent her late-game sustain in teamfights - Maybe change Death's dance damage reduction to only work on physical damage to make mages more effective against her - Possibly lower base HP or HP scaling - Change numbers on shield to make it a bit less powerful, could be something like 100% scaling -> 90% or something like that - Look into Spear of Shojin, among other things I hope I was able to convince you in some way, to at least prevent a rework of her kit. I will continue playing Riven no matter how bad she is, as long as her kit stays the same. Please, do not rework her. - Riven main #231768
Riven has 2 builds: with cosmic insigth, or with trascendence. It makes no sense a champion who possesses a shield of 215+432 (trasncendence) 3.6 seconds cdr, or 215+426 with 3.3 cdr (without counts the damage buff from her ultimate). A stun in an area that deals 175+462 damage - 4.2 cdr, or 175+426 damage - 3.85 cdr. Her q three dashs which if used in the minimum interval have 7 seconds of cdr, or if used in the maximum interval have nearly 0 seconds of cdr. And an ultimate ability that has 36 or 33 seconds of cdr that increases physical damage by up to 122. Seems fair... Not counting the shojim activations and the true damage of conqueror hat can be activated in a second.
: Early 9.10 Patch Discussion
I will divide the answer into three parts: the first part, refers to Riven, Master Yi and Vayne. About counterplay, you say that every character has to have it, but they have created an absurd mechanic of true damage based on the percentage of maximum life. This does not have any kind of counterplay, only shield, which not all characters have. True damage should be calculated in two ways: flat damage, with a fixed value that is not a percentage, or a percentage value of life, but then reduced by armor or magic resistance. Or at least damage reductions that are not based on armor or magic resistance, also work against true damage, such as allistar ult, Garen W and Master Yi, etc. Or true damage is not based on life percentage, or damage reductions work against real damage, or damage based on maximum life percentage always considers the armor or magical resistance of the opponent. nor that it is necessary to strengthen the true damage by giving other buffs afterwards, such as ignoring shields. Conqueror, in addition to magnifying the amount of damage that can not be reduced, still greatly increased healing, including based on the use of skills. Then comes the second point, which is the itemization. There are only three items throughout the game that reduce healing: executioner's calling, morellonomicon, thornmail. Two of these items are offensive options, and only one is defensive. And to make matters worse, the defensive option is only really useful, when healing is based on basic attacks. To make things worse, items that have grievous wounds are created from items that have only one itemization path. So when you buy a bramble vest, all starting players already know that you will buy a thornmail. In the same way with bami cinder. So if you created an item that mixed bramble vest with bami cinder, for example, you would solve two problems at once. Could be an item that caused grievous wounds to anyone who caused physical damage to the user (regardless of whether it was a basic attack or not). Even because the conqueror made it possible to heal even damage in the area of abilities, which also has no counterplay, since thornmail only works against basic attacks. So the summary of the second point is that no item should have only one build path. All items should progress to at least two different complete items. Finally, when you make the minions increase their HP throughout the game. You are only benefiting characters who have maximum life-based % damage. Sunfire cape has no utility at any point in the game, as it causes minimal damage to a troop that has a huge hp. Garen, for example, 30 minutes into the match can no longer kill a minion wave because it was not made to build damage items, and has no maximum life-based % damage like the other tank / bruisers.

Shinzoo Ryu

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