Lyon913 (NA)
: You basically state the reasons why Warwick needs a nerf in your reasons for why he doesn't. He's too safe and consistent i.e. "He'll never be completely useless even if he messes up". He can be very tanky in the mid game while still dealing tons of damage, and _also_ providing utility. Mid game is the most crucial period of time in League, where a big skirmish can completely change the tides of a game. While he doesn't farm quite as well as maybe a Shyvana or Yi, he still holds his own farming wise versus a lot of other junglers. Also Riot has access to a lot of data that armchair theorists don't, and so will likely make better decisions than the general public. If they believe WW needs nerfs, I'm sure they have good reasons for it. Additionally, it's extremely hard to balance perfectly for every elo _plus_ coordinated pro play, so Warwick can still need nerfs while not necessarily being viable in pro play. There's no reason to have a champ be overtuned for lower elo (aka the elos most people are in) just so he can have an even win rate among Challenger players, who comprise less than 0.01% of League gamers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the game shouldn't cater to Pro Players and Challengers in some aspects, but Riot isn't obliged to do that 100% of the time at the complete detriment of most of their player base. Addressing your Grievous Wounds point, completely finishing a Morellonomicon, or getting an Executioner's Calling just for WW can be really inconvenient...and might also be completely useless. Here's why- generally speaking, the champs that buy these items are also the ones that WW tries to ult onto. So in almost every case a QSS would be much more useful than the above mentioned items. Having to buy 2 separate expensive components on an ADC for items they won't finish until much later in the game is unreasonable and will probably cause that team to autolose because the ADC will do no damage. Obviously I'm just theorizing in a vacuum here, but that's exactly the same thing you're doing. Only you're going against the actual statistics and winrates that show he's had high winrates across multiple elos(for quite a while), while I'm trying to show ways why WW might be strong, which agrees with the numbers. Also your comments about having a "perfectly balanced game" without "band-aids" is just another way of saying you want a stale game that never changes and just stays the same. That sounds really boring to me. I love the fact that the meta shakes up every once in a while. I appreciate the active effort Riot takes to shake it up. If the game never changes, pro teams would eventually "solve" the game, and play in the most optimal way to win every game since they now have ample time to do so. This optimal path would trickle down from Challenger to Bronze and the game would slowly become much more monotonous, with everyone knowing what they should do, what the enemy should do et cetera, until all the life is sucked from this game.
> [{quoted}](name=Lyon913,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=005f0002,timestamp=2018-03-31T06:25:35.423+0000) > > You basically state the reasons why Warwick needs a nerf in your reasons for why he doesn't. He's too safe and consistent i.e. "He'll never be completely useless even if he messes up". He can be very tanky in the mid game while still dealing tons of damage, and _also_ providing utility. Mid game is the most crucial period of time in League, where a big skirmish can completely change the tides of a game. While he doesn't farm quite as well as maybe a Shyvana or Yi, he still holds his own farming wise versus a lot of other junglers. Also Riot has access to a lot of data that armchair theorists don't, and so will likely make better decisions than the general public. If they believe WW needs nerfs, I'm sure they have good reasons for it. > > Additionally, it's extremely hard to balance perfectly for every elo _plus_ coordinated pro play, so Warwick can still need nerfs while not necessarily being viable in pro play. There's no reason to have a champ be overtuned for lower elo (aka the elos most people are in) just so he can have an even win rate among Challenger players, who comprise less than 0.01% of League gamers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the game shouldn't cater to Pro Players and Challengers in some aspects, but Riot isn't obliged to do that 100% of the time at the complete detriment of most of their player base. > > Addressing your Grievous Wounds point, completely finishing a Morellonomicon, or getting an Executioner's Calling just for WW can be really inconvenient...and might also be completely useless. Here's why- generally speaking, the champs that buy these items are also the ones that WW tries to ult onto. So in almost every case a QSS would be much more useful than the above mentioned items. Having to buy 2 separate expensive components on an ADC for items they won't finish until much later in the game is unreasonable and will probably cause that team to autolose because the ADC will do no damage. > > Obviously I'm just theorizing in a vacuum here, but that's exactly the same thing you're doing. Only you're going against the actual statistics and winrates that show he's had high winrates across multiple elos(for quite a while), while I'm trying to show ways why WW might be strong, which agrees with the numbers. > > Also your comments about having a "perfectly balanced game" without "band-aids" is just another way of saying you want a stale game that never changes and just stays the same. That sounds really boring to me. I love the fact that the meta shakes up every once in a while. I appreciate the active effort Riot takes to shake it up. If the game never changes, pro teams would eventually "solve" the game, and play in the most optimal way to win every game since they now have ample time to do so. This optimal path would trickle down from Challenger to Bronze and the game would slowly become much more monotonous, with everyone knowing what they should do, what the enemy should do et cetera, until all the life is sucked from this game. If you had perfect balance, the game wouldn't be stale because you wouldn't be directed towards certain OP champs, strategies and setups. There would be no optimal strategy to trickle down from Challenger since you'd see the whole roster played and many different ways to win. You'd be free to execute any strategy without crippling your chance to win long-term (although even there people would gravitate towards the easiest to execute strategies to achieve that). The "freshness" you talk about is somewhat artificial because what happens is that a stale figured out meta generally just replaces the previous one with time. Change for the sake of change is not a good motto for game design. Essentially, instead of X being the dominant strategy, it just becomes Y. The game doesn't actually become better; it just becomes more novel. You're still pushed in a certain direction by the balance decisions and aren't so free to explore if you care about results. Perfect balance is almost impossible so it's not like Riot wouldn't change the game anymore and occasionally there would still be large design changes for the direction of the game, items, classes etc. Also, perfect balance could indeed mean that the game is exciting at the highest tiers but more clear cut at low ELOS (which is already true to an extent). For example, let's say Garen was made viable at the highest ELOs but now had a 57% winrate in Silver. This would kind of suck and I wouldn't be surprised if that's how the winrates wound up were Garen to be viable everywhere. Thus, in this case, maybe Garen would be the highest average winrate top at low ELO and so people there would "figure out" that it's the best way to climb, at least for a bit and if you're not particularly skilled at any other champion. However, it would be just the lowest effort and most reliable way of climbing. Someone who figures out let's say Camille could be just as successful but would need to spend more time understanding her. Eventually, the Garen player won't be able to just rely on the ease of the champion to maintain a solid winrate and climb. He'll need to update his game knowledge too and Garen's winrate will drop as he goes to new skill tiers. This is basically the worst case scenario of objective balance but is it really so terrible to have specific metas at various skill brackets as long as you know that nothing is actually OP? These metas wouldn't be locked or enforced by anyone. Players would understand that the game is balanced around what's actually true and it's their skill level holding them back. They'd realize that blaming balance doesn't make much sense because all those picks are very viable even at higher tiers/competitive. Or at least, that's what should happen but it does require a level of trust when their experiences are different. For example, if you see yourself lose to Yi a lot in Bronze, you might think he's OP even if he never outperforms in competitive. It would take some adjustment of player attitudes. The higher winrate champions at lower brackets would just reflect what a player there can execute more reliably and successfully. It wouldn't be as if other strategies are actually dwarfed by the dominant meta. The game would thrive at top level with a multitude of strategies and picks (although probably trending to what's more reliable). Thus, if let's say the low ELO meta is all deathball comps. with Garen, Annie, Yi and Jinx, so be it. What players would be annoyed about I suppose is just that "hey, X player got to this ELO easier than I did because of his champion" etc. This would probably lead to jokes about being a Garen main and possibly some devaluing of rank in people's eyes if mid ELO was reached with some champion known to outperform there. I'd rather have this sacrifice than to mess with the integrity of objective balance. The Garen main would be stuck eventually too if he doesn't have sufficient game knowledge. Since people would never feel handicapped by their champions, they can just have fun with whatever they like. It might make the game less serious at lower ranks (which may even make it more fun for the average player) while being FAR better and less stale at higher ranks (D5+). People below Gold are unlikely to even now be handicapped by balance decisions THAT much and nor do they care about that a great deal. Meanwhile, the higher ELO players do care and are directly affected by balance. It can negate a large portion of what they want to play. If Gragas is garbage but you're a great Gragas, you're still going to be able to climb from Bronze to Silver. In neither balance philosophy, are champion picks truly the limiting factor at lower ELOs and improving the situation at lower ELOs won't be as appreciated as higher anyway (lower ELO players have other priorities and don't tend to be as dedicated anyway). In the objective balance situation, someone playing Tryndamere especially well would still have no trouble climbing with a split-push strategy in low ELO and also wouldn't be handicapped at the highest levels. The difference would just be in comparative effort to learn. However, they'd always have just as much of a chance to climb to the level of their competence with sufficient time. This is not such a bad scenario and far better than now where you actually have to dump champs you like because they're not meta. Try playing Garen in Masters+ or Gragas anywhere but low ELO :p. In the problematic scenario with objective balance, what holds people back is skill but they can do something about that if they want. In the current one, sufficiently skilled players are constrained by the balance decisions themselves and not just their own ability to perform. Balancing for lower tiers warps balance and doesn't give a good foundation for gameplay. It's trying to build something on quick sand because truth and reality weren't at the core. I'm a bit tired and I'm sure this is super rambling and confusing. Sorry but I hope you get the gist of it. I'm pretty convinced that objective balance is the best way long-term or that the game should be split into two different sets of balance rules for casuals and for serious players but this post is probably not best at explaining exactly why. BTW: Even if everything is perfectly equitable below Plat 1, just the fact that competitive currently only shows a very limited pool/strategic repertoire is likely to discourage players from going something like Garen or Ziggs. Like you said, the Challenger players do have some influence on what is favored at lower ELOs too even if it might not improve their performance to pick a champion that might be a tad stronger at an objective level. Thus, if you have a healthy meta with a lot of variety at top level, it's also likely to make the game more interesting at lower levels. Although, champions won't appeal equally even if balanced perfectly.
Lyon913 (NA)
: You basically state the reasons why Warwick needs a nerf in your reasons for why he doesn't. He's too safe and consistent i.e. "He'll never be completely useless even if he messes up". He can be very tanky in the mid game while still dealing tons of damage, and _also_ providing utility. Mid game is the most crucial period of time in League, where a big skirmish can completely change the tides of a game. While he doesn't farm quite as well as maybe a Shyvana or Yi, he still holds his own farming wise versus a lot of other junglers. Also Riot has access to a lot of data that armchair theorists don't, and so will likely make better decisions than the general public. If they believe WW needs nerfs, I'm sure they have good reasons for it. Additionally, it's extremely hard to balance perfectly for every elo _plus_ coordinated pro play, so Warwick can still need nerfs while not necessarily being viable in pro play. There's no reason to have a champ be overtuned for lower elo (aka the elos most people are in) just so he can have an even win rate among Challenger players, who comprise less than 0.01% of League gamers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the game shouldn't cater to Pro Players and Challengers in some aspects, but Riot isn't obliged to do that 100% of the time at the complete detriment of most of their player base. Addressing your Grievous Wounds point, completely finishing a Morellonomicon, or getting an Executioner's Calling just for WW can be really inconvenient...and might also be completely useless. Here's why- generally speaking, the champs that buy these items are also the ones that WW tries to ult onto. So in almost every case a QSS would be much more useful than the above mentioned items. Having to buy 2 separate expensive components on an ADC for items they won't finish until much later in the game is unreasonable and will probably cause that team to autolose because the ADC will do no damage. Obviously I'm just theorizing in a vacuum here, but that's exactly the same thing you're doing. Only you're going against the actual statistics and winrates that show he's had high winrates across multiple elos(for quite a while), while I'm trying to show ways why WW might be strong, which agrees with the numbers. Also your comments about having a "perfectly balanced game" without "band-aids" is just another way of saying you want a stale game that never changes and just stays the same. That sounds really boring to me. I love the fact that the meta shakes up every once in a while. I appreciate the active effort Riot takes to shake it up. If the game never changes, pro teams would eventually "solve" the game, and play in the most optimal way to win every game since they now have ample time to do so. This optimal path would trickle down from Challenger to Bronze and the game would slowly become much more monotonous, with everyone knowing what they should do, what the enemy should do et cetera, until all the life is sucked from this game.
> [{quoted}](name=Lyon913,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=005f0002,timestamp=2018-03-31T06:25:35.423+0000) > > You basically state the reasons why Warwick needs a nerf in your reasons for why he doesn't. He's too safe and consistent i.e. "He'll never be completely useless even if he messes up". He can be very tanky in the mid game while still dealing tons of damage, and _also_ providing utility. Mid game is the most crucial period of time in League, where a big skirmish can completely change the tides of a game. While he doesn't farm quite as well as maybe a Shyvana or Yi, he still holds his own farming wise versus a lot of other junglers. Also Riot has access to a lot of data that armchair theorists don't, and so will likely make better decisions than the general public. If they believe WW needs nerfs, I'm sure they have good reasons for it. > > Additionally, it's extremely hard to balance perfectly for every elo _plus_ coordinated pro play, so Warwick can still need nerfs while not necessarily being viable in pro play. There's no reason to have a champ be overtuned for lower elo (aka the elos most people are in) just so he can have an even win rate among Challenger players, who comprise less than 0.01% of League gamers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say the game shouldn't cater to Pro Players and Challengers in some aspects, but Riot isn't obliged to do that 100% of the time at the complete detriment of most of their player base. > > Addressing your Grievous Wounds point, completely finishing a Morellonomicon, or getting an Executioner's Calling just for WW can be really inconvenient...and might also be completely useless. Here's why- generally speaking, the champs that buy these items are also the ones that WW tries to ult onto. So in almost every case a QSS would be much more useful than the above mentioned items. Having to buy 2 separate expensive components on an ADC for items they won't finish until much later in the game is unreasonable and will probably cause that team to autolose because the ADC will do no damage. > > Obviously I'm just theorizing in a vacuum here, but that's exactly the same thing you're doing. Only you're going against the actual statistics and winrates that show he's had high winrates across multiple elos(for quite a while), while I'm trying to show ways why WW might be strong, which agrees with the numbers. > > Also your comments about having a "perfectly balanced game" without "band-aids" is just another way of saying you want a stale game that never changes and just stays the same. That sounds really boring to me. I love the fact that the meta shakes up every once in a while. I appreciate the active effort Riot takes to shake it up. If the game never changes, pro teams would eventually "solve" the game, and play in the most optimal way to win every game since they now have ample time to do so. This optimal path would trickle down from Challenger to Bronze and the game would slowly become much more monotonous, with everyone knowing what they should do, what the enemy should do et cetera, until all the life is sucked from this game. That's not how balance works. There's no such thing as "overtuned in low ELOs." There's only overtuned or not. If a champion is balanced at high skill play but overperforms at lower rungs, it's not because the champion is overtuned at lower tiers. It's because those players fail to correctly play against him. This is a skill issue and not a champion issue. The champion is the constant in the equation. What isn't is the players. What you're asking for isn't balance; it's literally exemptions from proper balance because a strategy/champion etc. is not something that you or your teammates are competent in dealing with. Thus, you want Riot to step in and nerf that thing. This is a toxic mentality for long-term game health and detracts from it as an e-sport/competitive game since it actually pushes to move away from the reality of the objective balance state. It's an egoic reaction. It would be as if I got hit by every Ziggs skillshot and thus Riot changed the game for me to compensate for my lack of ability in dodging. Thus, Ziggs' AP ratios would be obliterated by 40% and now I'd be equally matched with a 50% winrate vs my opponent. Meanwhile, the game is ruined for skilled players and a lot of its strategic depth is too since Ziggs is no longer viable once people start playing more correctly. A strategic option was removed and now we've narrowed the viable options to win for someone who dedicates more time to this game and has a higher skill level. The game might be more fun for me now because I feel like I have a fair chance to win vs Ziggs but it objectively turned to shit and once I improve, I will also realize it's shit and that this type of balance mentality is unsustainable/cripples the vast majority of the roster. If you want a good game, don't ask for exceptions. Demand objective balance instead. To have this, a champion needs to be balanced around its strongest exponents, not the average player. Alternatively, you can have multiple versions of the whole game. One for competitive (perhaps even with a pure solo ladder at the top 1000) and one for casuals (even if ranked). Maybe there can be a version of LoL with a separate ranking system that has this sort of objective balance philosophy and you can move from one to the other kind of like you can switch from Flex to Solo. The other version would be geared more towards appeasing whatever the average player finds most frustrating/is performing worst against etc. Riot is trying REALLY HARD to do both in one game and it's a strategy for failure long-term... as it is beginning to become clear I think even to them. You cannot do both well. You can half-ass it and not please anyone or you can do things well but pick one way/have multiple versions of the ranking system etc. Serious players don't appreciate hand-holding balance fixes and casuals feel that the serious players get too much attention compared to the pros. They think that because they're the majority, they're automatically right (not even a little true) and that the balance should be for them - screwing over those who actually care about the game at a deeper level and want exciting competition with a diverse array of picks & strategies.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: From experience? Because i'm not seeing you as a wuk player
> [{quoted}](name=GripaAviara,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k3pg78FL,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-30T23:20:21.886+0000) > > From experience? Because i'm not seeing you as a wuk player win rates mean very little (esp. with that pick rate)... he's a snowball champ and so he has a good winrate in SQ where people often don't play well btw: those stats aren't accurate for KR
: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-30T15:34:57.028+0000) > Smaller balance adjustments (or at least investigations) if time permits. Not all of these will happen and some of those that do will show up later in the patch cycle: > > * Buffs to Pantheon (post minion agro changes), Spellbinder Orb (underperforming compared to comparable AP options), Nautilus (needs larger work too, but is also just weak), Vi > * Nerfs to Archangel's (new build path and stats have made this a bit strong), Janna, Xayah, Caitlyn, Warwick, Braum, Sion, Kog (though also need to see where Rageblade nerfs in 8.7 leave him) 1. TK is good or at least valued in competitive play due to his reliability in saving allies. This is understandable but I don't like the "River King" being pigeonholed into the support role. I want Riot to officially support him as a jungler too. I'm happy that you guys have tried doing this with Ekko to an extent even if he's not quite there yet. Everything about Kench's lore and kit screams "jungler" to me. I bought him and fell in love with him when he was a GOOD jungler (before his mini rework). His kit is overall pretty good for a jungler (except the falling off due to a lack of AoE). The biggest issues are his atrocious clear and high mana costs. Allowing the increasing bonus damage with 3 stacks to work in the jungle would instantly make him viable. 2. If you're trying to balance properly and keep champions viable at all brackets, it should be clear that WW isn't the issue. His win rate is a reflection of careless players failing to adapt. He excels in SQ but isn't objectively that strong (you'd see him a lot in competitive and top 10 Challenger if that were the case). A lot of his cheese, such as doing the enemy top JG @1:15 wouldn't even work there. Moreover, he doesn't have the mechanical demands of something like Lee Sin and thus, his win rate isn't dragged down by bad mains. He's also a generalist jungler that fits most comps. so again, this will artificially make his average win rate higher despite him not being OP. His passive alone helps weak junglers understand what to do better and building tanky means he'll never be completely useless if he messes up (unlike a Rengar, Kha etc.). Even when he's perfectly balanced, he's likely to have an above average win rate. While he has a 43% ban rate in NA, that drops to 1.3% when you look at KR. He's a predictable champion with clear weaknesses. People too often play into his dueling & skirmishing strength while not respecting his early (or adjusting against it by taking different JG paths). Some tips: Grievous wounds, splitting less/more carefully, kiting & disengaging properly (saving CC for R), not hanging around at low HP, warding his JG (he doesn't have the flexibility over walls of a Kha or Sej), and not giving him an early lead. Everything about WW becomes so much more awesome with an early lead. His healing becomes difficult to deal with if you don't have time to get grievous wounds, his tankiness becomes overpowering and he can start to dive. WW's Tiamat dependence for proper farming is one of his balance levers and this is negated as well. Random early leads are the way WWs dominate. WW can't properly farm Krugs or Raptors and yet he frequently gets a kill top ~2:45 after 3 camps. This gank timing is so common and reliable. That's not WW being strong as much as players being bad. Nerfing WW in any sizeable capacity appeases bad players at the cost of true balance and viability through the entire skill tier. It's a band aid fix that makes your game objectively worse just to shut up some whiners who refuse to learn. Vs competent teams, he's already very hard to pilot properly late game so at the very least his scaling shouldn't be made worse. Right now, he's good just because he's a snowball champion with a high chance of actually snowballing. His whole kit is built around it with his passive, R, E, duelist & skirmishing kit with minimal teamfight effectiveness etc. How can you NOT expect that he will have a good winrate especially in weaker regions? That doesn't make him OP. If you want to nerf him for average players, at least provide something more for skilled players to compensate at the highest tiers. 3. I enjoyed Kog as an AP mid in Season 4. He's not really viable there anymore. Again, if you nerf him, I'd like to at least have his secondary role be more powerful. ADC Kog is just boring to me but I doubt he'll be strong after the Rageblade nerf (outside of the Lulu pairing). I don't play the others enough to have many opinions. I just want a balanced game I can rely on and not this non-stop band-aiding whenever the whining gets loud enough or win rates go up. Win rates don't mean shit by themselves unless they're dramatically out of line. Even then and when a champion has a good pick rate, it may still be just that the skill floor is low so people don't screw it up so badly but a champion's strength should really be judged by the skill ceiling (aka as optimal play). That's the real test and that's how you create a balanced game that doesn't need futile band aids every few weeks... the holes in such a strategy will inevitably leak because it's 100% unsustainable and wrong. If you manage to do that and aim for it, people could just accept they suck and it isn't really the balance holding them back. Doing the opposite of this just makes players arrogant and always expecting that anything with a higher winrate gets gutted regardless of the objective balance state or reasons. They don't even bother to adapt besides banning. They expect hand holding. They don't try to think "why am I actually losing to this champion? what are the weaknesses/strengths? how do I adapt to his strategies/kit? etc." People want you to balance around the "majority of players" but the majority of players don't know shit about the game or balance. I played a normal game and people were complaining about how OP Garen is because of his ult. is... these are the people you want to listen to? They're good only to understand what most people find fun. Would you pick your heart surgeon or systems architect randomly off the street just because they're the "majority?" That's how a game is ruined. If people could just trust that Riot were focused on objective balancing around optimal play - not because Riot cares about competitive more but because that's literally what balance is. You don't balance around someone making a ton of mistakes... that's just useless. What if every chess game I started 1. h4 2. h5 3. h6 and then predictably white had an awful winrate. Would we now give White 2 moves at the start to compensate for this bad play? No one can take a game seriously and invest in learning it at a higher level if they can't trust that balance is being done properly and that the game actually has depth.
> [{quoted}](name=astralwit,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=na3Ko02t,comment-id=005f,timestamp=2018-03-30T19:43:06.165+0000) > > 1. TK is good or at least valued in competitive play due to his reliability in saving allies. This is understandable but I don't like the "River King" being pigeonholed into the support role. I want Riot to officially support him as a jungler too. I'm happy that you guys have tried doing this with Ekko to an extent even if he's not quite there yet. Everything about Kench's lore and kit screams "jungler" to me. I bought him and fell in love with him when he was a GOOD jungler (before his mini rework). His kit is overall pretty good for a jungler (except the falling off due to a lack of AoE). The biggest issues are his atrocious clear and high mana costs. Allowing the increasing bonus damage with 3 stacks to work in the jungle would instantly make him viable. > > 2. If you're trying to balance properly and keep champions viable at all brackets, it should be clear that WW isn't the issue. His win rate is a reflection of careless players failing to adapt. He excels in SQ but isn't objectively that strong (you'd see him a lot in competitive and top 10 Challenger if that were the case). A lot of his cheese, such as doing the enemy top JG @1:15 wouldn't even work there. Moreover, he doesn't have the mechanical demands of something like Lee Sin and thus, his win rate isn't dragged down by bad mains. He's also a generalist jungler that fits most comps. so again, this will artificially make his average win rate higher despite him not being OP. His passive alone helps weak junglers understand what to do better and building tanky means he'll never be completely useless if he messes up (unlike a Rengar, Kha etc.). Even when he's perfectly balanced, he's likely to have an above average win rate. While he has a 43% ban rate in NA, that drops to 1.3% when you look at KR. He's a predictable champion with clear weaknesses. People too often play into his dueling & skirmishing strength while not respecting his early (or adjusting against it by taking different JG paths). > > Some tips: Grievous wounds, splitting less/more carefully, kiting & disengaging properly (saving CC for R), not hanging around at low HP, warding his JG (he doesn't have the flexibility over walls of a Kha or Sej), and not giving him an early lead. Everything about WW becomes so much more awesome with an early lead. His healing becomes difficult to deal with if you don't have time to get grievous wounds, his tankiness becomes overpowering and he can start to dive. WW's Tiamat dependence for proper farming is one of his balance levers and this is negated as well. Random early leads are the way WWs dominate. WW can't properly farm Krugs or Raptors and yet he frequently gets a kill top ~2:45 after 3 camps. This gank timing is so common and reliable. That's not WW being strong as much as players being bad. Nerfing WW in any sizeable capacity appeases bad players at the cost of true balance and viability through the entire skill tier. It's a band aid fix that makes your game objectively worse just to shut up some whiners who refuse to learn. Vs competent teams, he's already very hard to pilot properly late game so at the very least his scaling shouldn't be made worse. Right now, he's good just because he's a snowball champion with a high chance of actually snowballing. His whole kit is built around it with his passive, R, E, duelist & skirmishing kit with minimal teamfight effectiveness etc. How can you NOT expect that he will have a good winrate especially in weaker regions? That doesn't make him OP. If you want to nerf him for average players, at least provide something more for skilled players to compensate at the highest tiers. > > 3. I enjoyed Kog as an AP mid in Season 4. He's not really viable there anymore. Again, if you nerf him, I'd like to at least have his secondary role be more powerful. ADC Kog is just boring to me but I doubt he'll be strong after the Rageblade nerf (outside of the Lulu pairing). > > I don't play the others enough to have many opinions. > > I just want a balanced game I can rely on and not this non-stop band-aiding whenever the whining gets loud enough or win rates go up. Win rates don't mean shit by themselves unless they're dramatically out of line. Even then and when a champion has a good pick rate, it may still be just that the skill floor is low so people don't screw it up so badly but a champion's strength should really be judged by the skill ceiling (aka as optimal play). That's the real test and that's how you create a balanced game that doesn't need futile band aids every few weeks... the holes in such a strategy will inevitably leak because it's 100% unsustainable and wrong. If you manage to do that and aim for it, people could just accept they suck and it isn't really the balance holding them back. Doing the opposite of this just makes players arrogant and always expecting that anything with a higher winrate gets gutted regardless of the objective balance state or reasons. They don't even bother to adapt besides banning. They expect hand holding. They don't try to think "why am I actually losing to this champion? what are the weaknesses/strengths? how do I adapt to his strategies/kit? etc." People want you to balance around the "majority of players" but the majority of players don't know shit about the game or balance. I played a normal game and people were complaining about how OP Garen is because of his ult. is... these are the people you want to listen to? They're good only to understand what most people find fun. Would you pick your heart surgeon or systems architect randomly off the street just because they're the "majority?" That's how a game is ruined. If people could just trust that Riot were focused on objective balancing around optimal play - not because Riot cares about competitive more but because that's literally what balance is. You don't balance around someone making a ton of mistakes... that's just useless. What if every chess game I started 1. h4 2. h5 3. h6 and then predictably white had an awful winrate. Would we now give White 2 moves at the start to compensate for this bad play? No one can take a game seriously and invest in learning it at a higher level if they can't trust that balance is being done properly and that the game actually has depth. The only Ekko JG that can be viable but still not amazing is bruiser (some AP but also tank stats). A melee diving champion as a jungler on a low income budget is just never going to work out in the average game. Riot might not like for Ekko JG to be tanky but he does have high mana costs which make it less attractive and yet it's still the only way for him to go when not snowballing. It also messes up your team comp. if your jungler goes a champion like Ekko and gives nothing to your team comp. that Rengar or Shaco can't. The whole point of Ekko is to be a more subtle diving assassin with CC and outplay potential. To actually benefit from this realistically, he needs fights to be long enough for those things to matter. For that, he can't be 3 shot and die or panic ult. ... he needs time to position and to go in/out of the fight. That's why despite what Riot wants, the best Ekko will always require some tanky stats - even in mid lane. Kassadin is similar. He needs at least something like RoA for tanky stats. It's not wrong or unhealthy. It's forced on you if those champions are to be useful. I hate feeling like when I play a champion like Ekko as HIS KIT IS - bruiser, I am afraid of it getting gutted again. Unless he's going to be a cheese champion, even better AP ratios won't make him viable as full AP.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: And Wukong is balanced?
Wu'kong isn't even top tier... try to learn each champ's strengths and weaknesses his Q gives armor reduction and he often buys BC
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 30
Where are the Corki buffs? Perhaps a revert of his last AD nerf. He's performing awfully. All he has is damage and safety... so much opportunity cost relative to CC/pick mids if he doesn't even have a great late game (statistically he's bad late too).
: The Boards: "Snowballing makes the game less about skill expression."
A player is able to carry by crushing their lane -> "The game is determined by the weakest link on the team and thus there isn't enough skill expression."
darkdill (NA)
: That's not the issue. The issue is that usually once someone finishes Ninja Tabi in top-lane, that passive causes them to auto-win the lane (unless your opponent is Ryze or Lissandra).
> [{quoted}](name=Yousosmart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lcpa9z2s,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T21:32:02.040+0000) > > That's not the issue. The issue is that usually once someone finishes Ninja Tabi in top-lane, that passive causes them to auto-win the lane (unless your opponent is Ryze or Lissandra). and yet what are we to do vs a champion like Trynd to even survive lane? they have that passive for a reason... some picks can get out of control fast if Ninja Tabi are weak. 10 armor is probably ~200g worth of stats just removed. It's far too much.
: You wont even believe how many buffs I steal. I always go to enemy top buff first if no one is there, I take it (like 30% of time), so I start with three buffs. I take most of first dragons, I only play Vi and WW, they both can do drake at lvl4 after shop. In bronze and silver no one even expects you to take drake so early. I only get caught randomly sometimes, but it is worth the risk. WW is awesome I just miss ulti a lot because it is so narrow. I also use wards to help my teammates, I place them next to lines where laners usually place them. I like to play safe, so if we loosing my dmg is low, because I don't get caught or stupid fights with no chance of winning.
> [{quoted}](name=Reanimatrix,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l7K89uka,comment-id=00180000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T21:22:15.611+0000) > > You wont even believe how many buffs I steal. I always go to enemy top buff first if no one is there, I take it (like 30% of time), so I start with three buffs. I take most of first dragons, I only play Vi and WW, they both can do drake at lvl4 after shop. In bronze and silver no one even expects you to take drake so early. I only get caught randomly sometimes, but it is worth the risk. WW is awesome I just miss ulti a lot because it is so narrow. I also use wards to help my teammates, I place them next to lines where laners usually place them. > I like to play safe, so if we loosing my dmg is low, because I don't get caught or stupid fights with no chance of winning. If you have over 50 games and are playing your best champions but not climbing, there must still be some major leaks that you're not seeing since there are actually plenty of mistakes to exploit as a jungler in Gold/Silver. Consider watching a random Diamond+ streamer and seeing what you'd do next before they do it. See how often those decisions are the same. Anyway, it's possible that you also had unlucky teams but I don't think it's the whole picture.
: tanks need nerfing ASAP!~
tanks aren't even strong, you just don't understand them and what they do/where they are weak after the cinderhulk nerf, most tank junglers are subpar other than Sej (and even she's at a 49% winrate)... some other junglers go Cinderhulk (such as Olaf or Skarner) but aren't really tanks I recommend everyone who whines about tanks to actually play tanks for a few days. You'll find out that they are nowhere near as strong as you think and just have windows of power as they should. If they didn't have decent base damage, they'd be useless and never picked. They would be so useless that building tank woudn't be worth anything.
Shiznyte (NA)
: {{champion:19}} good to know i won't be getting nerfed anytime soon then!
> [{quoted}](name=Shiznyte,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAr5rZtt,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T20:50:50.502+0000) > > {{champion:19}} good to know i won't be getting nerfed anytime soon then! WW's not a problem, bad players are. In KR he has a 1.3% ban rate and in NA it's 43%. It's not as if he's not played in KR, they still pick him ~6% of the time but his winrate is just ~52% which is normal for a champion with a generally useful kit and lacking the mechanical difficulty of picks like Lee (which is why Lee's winrate tends to be depressed even when he's broken). WW has a relatively predictable kit that punishes a lot of SQ mistakes. I don't know how top laners STILL die to him ~2:45 when almost every WW clears 3 camps and ganks their lane (since WW can't actually do raptors or krugs in a reasonable amount of time - quite dependent on getting 1050g for Tiamat). There's a reason WW is not seen almost ever in LCS.
: Why Isn't Matchmaking Based Off Of Rank?
beause they hide your MMR and the rank isn't always identical to MMR
: [PBE] Crest of Cinders (Red Buff) no longer deals damages to turrets.
I don't like this at all. Many junglers aren't even smart enough to use red buff for maximum pressure and then push the lane + try to damage turret. This is just giving less opportunity to differentiate yourself as a jungler.
darkdill (NA)
: [PBE] Less armor on Ninja Tabi instead of making its passive scale over time? Context please.
Terrible change. It's a huge nerf and they're just a good generalist pick, not necessarily OP enough to merit a 10 armor nerf with no compensation elsewhere. 5 armor is the most I would consider reasonable and I'm not even sure it's necessary. The game just has a lot more threat from physical damage - even JG monsters, turrets, dragon, baron etc.
: Well. I only jungle. I usually fall behind on farm because I'm busy killing people. I try to give kills to my teammates. I think I just have no luck with teams.
> [{quoted}](name=Reanimatrix,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l7K89uka,comment-id=001800000000,timestamp=2018-03-27T20:52:43.360+0000) > > Well. I only jungle. I usually fall behind on farm because I'm busy killing people. I try to give kills to my teammates. I think I just have no luck with teams. It's much more likely that you do not pathing efficiently (not really planning routes or having a game plan) and just are missing a ton of opportunities without even realizing it. There are so many mistakes in Gold and Silver but we often fail to see our own unless it results in a direct result. Most of the mistakes are about the little things which you repeat a lot or about lost opportunities you never even notice. For example, if you see the JG top and are playing Xin (assuming your bot and mid are alive), it should be super obvious to invade his JG on the other side or do a dragon, perhaps set-up a dive, ward his JG well etc. Many weak junglers just continue their regular path without using the new information.
: Can Ninja Tabi not be nerfed if ADCs aren't being nerfed?
This nerf is way too large. 10 Armor is huge. At least buff the auto % reduction back to 12%. Moreover, if you look on stat sites, Ninja Tabi don't perform any better than other boot choices. They're just more generally useful since everything does physical damage (monsters, turrets, champions etc.) and it's the biggest threat late game.
: I never feed and my win ratio is like 35% love this game =D
> [{quoted}](name=Reanimatrix,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l7K89uka,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2018-03-27T16:35:40.769+0000) > > I never feed and my win ratio is like 35% love this game =D Game's not really about KDA. I can be at fountain and never feed. It's about map pressure. If a Singed or Trynd goes 0 7 but forces 3 top for half the game, that's a lot more useful than 0 0 but creating no space.
Rioter Comments
k wìx (NA)
: You will never fix this problem without personal skill affecting your rank in a more meaningful way. **Players that perform poorly, by feeding and making bad plays, yet win because of the team do not deserve to climb. ** **Conversely, players that perform exceptionally well, and still wind up losing because of feeding teammates, do not deserve to fall.**
> [{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBJzrmob,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-27T12:19:25.696+0000) > > You will never fix this problem without personal skill affecting your rank in a more meaningful way. > > **Players that perform poorly, by feeding and making bad plays, yet win because of the team do not deserve to climb. ** > > **Conversely, players that perform exceptionally well, and still wind up losing because of feeding teammates, do not deserve to fall.** OK, but let's think this through a little more. If those who perform exceptionally well don't lose due to weak teammates, those same teammates will climb! That means that the system will then match them in the wrong game overestimating their skill. Thus the cycle continues. And no, I don't think they should ever consider anything besides W/L for matchmaking. It becomes too much about KDA padding and subjective in that way. The thing is, you actually can carry really hard in this game still but only if you're MUCH better than the rest and pick champs with solo carry potential like Riven, Cass, Vayne, Nasus, Darius, Tryndamere etc. If you're much better but yo're playing Ezreal, I kind of think you won't be able to do it. The same goes for Zilean mid or Taric support. You can still win over 60% but you won't get those 70% winrates you see from boosters or smurfs. However, with enough games, you'll still get where you deserve as long as you don't tilt too much from the losses. Also, those kinds of winrates are unsustainable anyway unless you're smurfing on a bronze account. Once people reach their actual ELO, winrates tend to hover between 48% and 52%.
k wìx (NA)
: Anyone who thinks Mundo is strong needs to get with the times, he's an outdated relic. In good hands, he can be strong, but kit-wise, he's almost completely outclassed. I'd like to see him given some minor CC, so he can do more during teamfights. You essentially get ignored as the enemy runs down your team while you chase after them like an idiot throwing cleavers. Original post is pretty much spot on - he needs a complete rework in my mind. Please give him something. I don't think base armor is enough. I'd like to see the distance on his Q increased by a small amount, or his aura have a more dibilitating effect. *EDIT* I'd also like to see mundo convert some of his mana into health or some bullshit like that - would open up SO many decent and interesting items on him. Not sure on the ratio, like 50% of all mana gained from items gained as health? {{item:3800}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3001}} Would all instantly become pretty viable on him.
> [{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WaeNahZh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-25T18:53:32.340+0000) > > Anyone who thinks Mundo is strong needs to get with the times, he's an outdated relic. In good hands, he can be strong, but kit-wise, he's almost completely outclassed. > > I'd like to see him given some minor CC, so he can do more during teamfights. You essentially get ignored as the enemy runs down your team while you chase after them like an idiot throwing cleavers. > > Original post is pretty much spot on - he needs a complete rework in my mind. Please give him something. > > I don't think base armor is enough. I'd like to see the distance on his Q increased by a small amount, or his aura have a more dibilitating effect. > > *EDIT* > > I'd also like to see mundo convert some of his mana into health or some bullshit like that - would open up SO many decent and interesting items on him. Not sure on the ratio, like 50% of all mana gained from items gained as health? > > {{item:3800}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3001}} > Would all instantly become pretty viable on him. I like that he's the only tank with a good poke tool on a low CD. I think stat buffs can keep him in a decent spot but it's true that he doesn't offer a lot kit-wise. I play him a bit like Singed... just trying hard to frontline, be annoying etc. I'm trying to think of a way to change his kit without hurting his identity and it's not easy. I thought of a stacking bleed passive on cleavers but that would probably be useless on jungle or could become obnoxious. A stun after X cleavers might be interesting but is probably too similar to Braum etc. and would require lowering the Q CD. I like his kit if you can "go where you please" and just run around while being a tanky DPS threat. Adding stuns etc. would force adjustments to make him less tanky or lower his base MS and those properties are a lot of the fun. The more I think about it, the more I think he just needs stat adjustments and that's it.** Maybe add 3% bonus MS on his ult. (to counter Celerity a bit) at all ranks along with the proposed armor buff.**
: If Swain did it after the initial time they both said something, it's verbal abuse. Perhaps not an extreme case, but it IS verbal and abusive.
> [{quoted}](name=TsunamiWave22,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=261kjo7R,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-04T08:56:21.270+0000) > > If Swain did it after the initial time they both said something, it's verbal abuse. Perhaps not an extreme case, but it IS verbal and abusive. Nidalee criticized Swain for missing his skillshots. Swain, in good humor, pointed out Nidalee's own misses 3-4x. Note that this actually happened and he wasn't calling her stupid or anything like that - just giving him a taste of his own medicine. If the Nidalee criticizes Swain's misses, surely he should be able to take a few comments about his own missed spears (just reality). That is not verbal abuse at all. To call that "abuse" is to make a mockery of the word and the real abuse that exists in the world. If he said it for every missed spear 50x during the game, then sure, you have a point but not for that. Note also that the Nidalee didn't even ask him to stop. He IMMEDIDIATELY asked for reports and talked about how happy he'd be when Swain got permabanned. Since Nidalee initiated the entire behavior pattern, he could have just said "that's enough of that" or something similar. If Swain continued a lot after that, then I agree that it would be rude and potentially abusive. Although, personally, I probably wouldn't report for that if someone did it to me (unless they lied and said I missed a spear I actually hit). I'd consider it petty, pathetic and assholish but just under the cutoff.
: I've agreed with most of the things you've said in your post but the idea that not "calling people out" for justice is somehow cowardly. It's okay to give input but in the end condescension (whether justified or not) leads to resentment, and lengthens the time a person takes to learn. That's where your method fails - you hope that you planted a 'seed' in Nidalee's mind, and that he'll regret what he did and wish for forgiveness or something. But we both know that's probably not going to happen. In the end they'll probably enter another game tilted more. Personally I would've tried to make Swain's insult s sound more like jokes and say something like "lol I once played Nidalee and kept hitting minions" or tell nidalee to calm down I agree that truth > emotions, but I disagree that justice > emotions
> [{quoted}](name=TeCoolMage,realm=OCE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=261kjo7R,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2018-03-04T07:32:06.492+0000) > > I've agreed with most of the things you've said in your post but the idea that not "calling people out" for justice is somehow cowardly. > > It's okay to give input but in the end condescension (whether justified or not) leads to resentment, and lengthens the time a person takes to learn. > > That's where your method fails - you hope that you planted a 'seed' in Nidalee's mind, and that he'll regret what he did and wish for forgiveness or something. But we both know that's probably not going to happen. In the end they'll probably enter another game tilted more. Personally I would've tried to make Swain's insult s sound more like jokes and say something like "lol I once played Nidalee and kept hitting minions" or tell nidalee to calm down > > I agree that truth > emotions, but I disagree that justice > emotions Yes, it's probably true. It's better to be more delicate about it and not hammer them with it. They'd need some time to process too. The article about the backfire effect was interesting. I could have been less direct. Although, I think that if people had the pursuit of truth as their highest value, they would inevitably have a much thicker skin so some of this wouldn't apply. Conscious hypocrisy and lying are some of the things that I don't have a thick skin for. My school experience was quite good and happy but perhaps the only time I remember crying in school was in really early grades when someone told the teacher I said something that I did not (it wasn't meant to be a joke either). I don't even remember what it was but I remember being upset. Insults wouldn't phase me because it's just some person's opinion but untruths were painful because they forced our two realities to collide and warped them together. In a sense, if someone insults me, I am free to interpret it, analyze it for truth/lessons, process it etc. but a lie about me moves outside of my realm of control and analysis. It enters and potentially affects my world in a powerful way. I can't filter it because it can affect others too. It's an attempt at changing the ground my feet are on and it may affect me in ways totally outside of my control (due to the judgment of others) in a way that is not the result of my authentic behavior. I think lies are infinitely worse than any insults someone can muster. I would rather someone told me to jump off a cliff or whatever sadistic thing popped into their head rather than an outright lie about me. Lies behind someone's back are the worst because they have even less of an option to set the record straight. Their reality is potentially warped by this malevolent actor and they don't even know it.
: > [{quoted}](name=SirPurrr,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=261kjo7R,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T05:50:11.535+0000) > > Ask yourself "what would happen if everyone did this behavior I'm pondering". Would the world go to shit and become totally non-functional? Would healthspans be reduced? Would people be starving and die even more? And so on... Basically, would you prefer to live in that world if everyone was like you? If the answer is no - such as for deceit, stealing, murdering etc. then that action is probably not ethical. What would happen if everyone was a mechanical engineer? Shit. I shouldn't do that. Would you prefer to live in a world where everyone touts their own perceptions as "true" and walked around looking for imperfections to insult, all for the service of their ego and no other reason? Oh. Maybe you shouldn't do that. ________ The second portion was worded rudely for effect. I'm hoping to get you to consider that if the rules were adjusted to allow for "truth" to be spoken in game without regard to how it is said, then it will be those who you consider morons who use that freedom to insult you, every game. If the rules are adjusted to give you a specific leeway, then that same leeway will be given to the worst person you have ever interacted with.
> [{quoted}](name=Silent Gravity,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=261kjo7R,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-03-04T06:34:59.281+0000) > > What would happen if everyone was a mechanical engineer? Shit. I shouldn't do that. > > Would you prefer to live in a world where everyone touts their own perceptions as "true" and walked around looking for imperfections to insult, all for the service of their ego and no other reason? Oh. Maybe you shouldn't do that. > ________ > The second portion was worded rudely for effect. I'm hoping to get you to consider that if the rules were adjusted to allow for "truth" to be spoken in game without regard to how it is said, then it will be those who you consider morons who use that freedom to insult you, every game. If the rules are adjusted to give you a specific leeway, then that same leeway will be given to the worst person you have ever interacted with. This is a smurf. I know you're joking but being a mechanical engineer isn't in the realm of an ethical discussion about actions (although I have a lot of respect for engineers). As far as professions, I see that as a personal choice and no one's business as long as said person isn't infringing on others' rights. I player pro online poker for a while and I know that doesn't help others (besides possibly being entertained and that I donated a little to charity) but it was fascinating to me then. Ideally, one's profession aims to improve the world and our knowledge but it's not an obligation because people also have a right to be happy. Maybe I could be a good doctor but I'd be unhappy because the career is a poor fit. If society somehow forced me to do that for some utilitarian goal, I'd consider it a step backwards and an aggressive infringement on my rights as an individual. Anyway, I get your point but I think it's better if people operate honestly and directly with respect to truth. Otherwise, we're just digging deeper in a web of lies and we make the bubbles from which we operate ever larger and more distant (certainly a barrier to understanding). This leads to a lack of social cohesion as well as trust. When that happens, you'll have far more predatory and selfish behavior. Trust is the foundation for healthy societies and leads to reciprocity. When we don't operate in truth, we magnify the separation from ourselves as well as from the rest of reality, we're handicapped when trying to change it. It would be like attempting to wield a hammer with a large boxing glove. The boxing glove is the separation from truth - the BS - and you can't build anything until you take it off. You'll also miss a lot when you limit your perspective this way. Perhaps the wood of the handle is putrid and eventually when you try to hit a nail extra hard, the handle breaks and the metal part flies away hitting someone in the face. If your sense of touch wasn't so obstructed by the glove, you could probably have sensed that the handle was putrid and breaking apart much earlier. Even the vibration from the hit wouldn't feel quite the same. This does not mean being disrespectful or mocking (it's especially messed up to insult someone for things they can't change) and nor does it mean that you reject new evidence or arguments as if you have a monopoly on truth. Truth for humans is mainly a process of ever-increasing alignment with reality. When we say "truth" it means that this is the closest to our current state of understanding about something. We can't experience everything in the universe and our senses are limited but with instruments, an open but logical mind as well as a desire to learn, we can get closer to what's real. That's the point but that takes courage because you have to try and see things as they are and not as you want them to be. You also have to stand up and say something when you think there's a gross misalignment to truth. It doesn't matter if you end-up being wrong or not. Good! You learned something but at least you spoke up when you thought the train was off the rails. I don't buy the slippery slope argument against truth and criticizing certainly shouldn't be a heavily ego driven activity - that's when it can slip into abuse. I think the real solution is for everyone to be more oriented to truth as the highest value and to develop a thicker skin too so that we are free to actually operate under its umbrella as a default without being ostracized. Having a thicker skin would allow people to be themselves more and that would lead to more genuine relationships in which people feel they can expose their flaws without fear. This would allow the necessary engagement to perhaps fix them instead of merely hiding them as people usually do today. If people are more free to admit their flaws and biases, they're also less likely to endup in ill-suited roles. This isn't how the world works right now. For example, I remember reading about staunch anti-gay republicans who were later found out to be closet homosexuals themselves. I'm not excusing their hypocritical and damaging behavior but merely pointing out that they probably felt they couldn't be honest about who they were without a huge backlash. With honesty and truth, inaccurate thought patterns out of alignment can be corrected because instead of condemnation, you'd have understanding and an effort at a conversation. You wouldn't have hatred and violence just because someone believes something else and everything would be open to examination. BTW: I said nihilist tendencies not that I am a nihilist. For example, I don't believe in the idea of fate and life having some cosmic purpose ordained by a deity. As a minor point, I want to add that empathy & compassion are very important but upholding well-thought out principles of ethics is generally more likely to lead to a just world. The problem with being overly emotional for this stuff is that one can relate to visible pain as the primary factor. People then start to think about the value of life in terms of suffering. For example, "it's OK to bully and beat a kid who doesn't cry but stop if they do" I don't agree with this at all but it's basically how some think. Perhaps a kid can feel just as much internal pain without crying. Also, if pain is the central factor, then would it be OK to mutilate a human with no pain receptors? Clearly not but overly emotional thinking can start to manifest as such conclusions (through action rather than direct speech). I also don't think explaining my perspective is "manipulating" the reader. That seems like a very strange characterization. If anything, I took time out of my weekend to shed light on what I consider to be a serious problem with the current system. This serves me in no way but I understand that most don't even appreciate it or are actively hostile to it. You can think what you like. I already spent more time on this than I wanted. I feel no duty besides providing the information.
: Is saying "x person is toxic"/"report x person" itself toxic?
I think it is if the behavior isn't super flagrant toxicity, it might count as harassment. You might be misinterpreting the behavior or it might be quite mild in some cases so the other player would find it really unfair that you'd single them out and try to get the team to gang up against him/her. If they start swearing, calling you names, stuff like "x is a shit player and the whole game is his fault. just uninstall or stick to bots!" etc. then I suppose it's more OK to ask for a report since there is little ambiguity about his behavior. On the other hand, if he says, "we need you with us and you need to actually hit your ult." that's not really toxic even if it may feel that way while you're in the game and being criticized. On the other hand, is there really a point to ask for a report if the behavior is obviously toxic to everyone? Not so much... A better way is probably to just tell them something like "just let me enjoy the game and let's work together for the win" etc. This indicates to the team that you want the behavior to stop and wish to win so if the other player continues the bad behavior, it's already going to be on people's radar and they'll likely report.
: {{item:3124}} + 40%CDR The permastun is disgusting
> [{quoted}](name=Spoofghoul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7mOQXvu,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-11-29T11:18:13.898+0000) > > {{item:3124}} + 40%CDR > > The permastun is disgusting That sounds like a nice fantasy build but when I've tried it, I basically died before spitting them out. :(
: Right, but he autos twice which is easy enough with how long his passive lasts, is able to hit a q with ease due to the fatass hitbox, (or he can auto 3 times, q get the stun, and THEN swallow you), then swallow you. (with maybe an auto at the end). And so you're saying that a tank like him should be able to burst someone 100-0 with one combo while allowing himself another lifebar with his shield just because you went into his "zone"?
> [{quoted}](name=Lupan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7mOQXvu,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-11-29T04:53:36.772+0000) > > Right, but he autos twice which is easy enough with how long his passive lasts, is able to hit a q with ease due to the fatass hitbox, (or he can auto 3 times, q get the stun, and THEN swallow you), then swallow you. (with maybe an auto at the end). And so you're saying that a tank like him should be able to burst someone 100-0 with one combo while allowing himself another lifebar with his shield just because you went into his "zone"? His auto range is 175 and he's not the only champion to have that. He's good at dueling and single target damage. That's a big part of his appeal in all roles. He doesn't have an amazing teamfight ultimate like Nautilus, Sejuani, Sion, Maokai etc. (who by the way can often save an entire team, not just one person). He doesn't have AoE damage like them either. He lacks a lot of things outside of straight dueling and tankiness. Yes, I think he's completely fair to play against top given his kit as a whole. In fact, I don't think he's even above avergage as a top laner, as his winrates show. Any kit can be made to sound strong on paper (especially when you ignore what he lacks and grossly oversimplify things).
Rioter Comments
: And Tahm toplane on the other hand has basically two lives and is able to one shot enemies while being 0-3 (happened in 2 cases where I was a fed Twitch/Rengar. Building tank in the Rengar game)
> [{quoted}](name=Lupan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7mOQXvu,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-11-28T11:14:53.287+0000) > > And Tahm toplane on the other hand has basically two lives and is able to one shot enemies while being 0-3 (happened in 2 cases where I was a fed Twitch/Rengar. Building tank in the Rengar game) It's not a 1-shot at all. It's 2 autos Q, more autos, Q, W, an auto or so. He has one damage ability with a telegraphed setup required to even use it. If you don't play around it, of course you get wrecked. He's a duelist champion. Unlike Rengar, he doesn't have stealth and can't jump out of bushes or do dozens of other things. He has very high zone control near him though (especially vs melees).
: tahm mid is pretty good into some matchups, like poke mages, but exceptionally bad into early game assassins like talon or kat that can shut him out
> [{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7mOQXvu,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-28T02:46:17.020+0000) > > tahm mid is pretty good into some matchups, like poke mages, but exceptionally bad into early game assassins like talon or kat that can shut him out nice name Tahm mid has no real scaling though right? Just like Tahm in any role, come late game you do basically just single target damage in melee range. If you use him more to just save people than all those stats spent on damage don't help much.
: Most of his damage is single target? Are you trying to say that even though his Q, W, Empowered W, E, and R are _all_ AOE abilities he does mostly single target damage? Seems legit.
> [{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B5tB9GQH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-21T06:29:03.932+0000) > > Most of his damage is single target? Are you trying to say that even though his Q, W, Empowered W, E, and R are _all_ AOE abilities he does mostly single target damage? Seems legit. Yes, absolutely. Corki builds as an ADC and outside of the early game, his primary source of damage is his autos. The longer the game goes, the less damage your abilities do by comparrison. In fact, using Q in a fight late game is often a mistake because the time it takes lowers your DPS compared to just autoing.
LankPants (OCE)
: >So, yes, he isn't "OMG, SO BRKN, RITO HOTFX NOW!!1!!11", but he is looking pretty damn strong, especially considering the fact that most of these sites say he was below 50% win rate before 7.22 For Corki that is in that range. He's a champ who takes over high ranked games and is damn near a perma ban when he's at ~48% win rate. Corki at 52% is insanely broken, kind of like Lee Sin at that same winrate.
> [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B5tB9GQH,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-21T07:34:29.333+0000) > > For Corki that is in that range. He's a champ who takes over high ranked games and is damn near a perma ban when he's at ~48% win rate. Corki at 52% is insanely broken, kind of like Lee Sin at that same winrate. That's not even remotely true and the reworked Corki was never permabanned in any region. In fact, his ban rates have never even been high. What is high ranked for you? Diamond+ is pretty damn high (probably D4-D3 MMR average) and he's nothing special there. The idea that Diamond+ and Masters+ are such different environments that a champion is completely broken in one but not the other tends to be BS. We're not talking about Bronze vs Plat+ here. Diamond+ players are quite capable of utilizing a champion like Corki well. The difference isn't some super amazing mechanics or perfect CS ability. It's more about map play than anything else. Lee Sin is also a poor example since he has a huge play rate and an irrational appeal to many players. His winrate is dragged down by a lot of really clueless Lees or even people with 100+ games on Lee but 43% winrates. Plus, even if you were right (and you're definitely not), if the champion can't even be in a balanced state for players in Diamond+, who is he for? If we're saying that he has to have awful winrates everywhere so he's balanced for top Challenger, that just doesn't add up. That means he'd need a rework. I don't think that's true though. Diamond+ is plenty representative and once Challenger winrates have large enough samples to be relevant, I doubt that Corki will be seen as a problem there either.
KoKoboto (NA)
: I don't like this buff to Fleet Footwork because it narrows down users for the rune
I kind of agree. Focusing on the MS or ratios could make this more general.
Penns (EUW)
: Also Corki is probably op, less MR with him having magic damage crits... hm. He never had a high win rate in soloq and even then he was one of the best. So now with ~52.. ye
> [{quoted}](name=Penns,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=rwFEZcUi,comment-id=0066,timestamp=2017-11-17T18:54:19.146+0000) > > Also Corki is probably op, less MR with him having magic damage crits... hm. > He never had a high win rate in soloq and even then he was one of the best. So now with ~52.. ye He never had an overwhelmingly high winrate in competitive either but he was often a safe pick. He's finally in a decent spot and he should have massive damage if he gets to late game. Why else would you pick an ADC mid? What else does his kit have (for the record, I think Lucian was never as good mid as people though: standard ADC problems outside of laning phase)? Corki also needs ~20 minutes to actually become relevant. Plus, if your comp isn't dogshit, you can have people build Adaptive Helm (strongest item vs Corki). You don't always even need to itemize specifically vs Corki since Randuin's, Ninja Tabi and Frozen Heart still affect him. He's a magic damage ADC but he's still susceptible to AS slows, crit. reduction and all the other traditional ADC weaknesses. If your comp. isn't just a bunch of squishy assassins, like I've often seen in preseason, there are plenty of answers.
zecastar (NA)
: Petition to increase Zhonya's armor by 5
make it 7 more armor for 100g and we have a deal
: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Electrocute_(Rune) >Adaptive: Deals either physical or magic depending on which would deal the most damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Mysticman89,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KsqTTsbQ,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-10T06:05:21.164+0000) > > http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Electrocute_(Rune) Yeah, that's completely wrong. The person writing it probably just assumed that whatever stat you have the most of will mean that you deal that damage type. They need to change the wiki. I even tested this in customs. For example, if I go Press the Attack WW taking Sorcs and Witt's End vs a target dummy with 100 MR and 100 Armor, it still makes Press the Attack deal physical damage. Electrocute does the same.
Rioter Comments
Chermorg (NA)
: The *person* who is making money off of Riot services or attempting to do so without their permission can be punished as well.
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=imETP5vR,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T18:09:22.003+0000) > > The *person* who is making money off of Riot services or attempting to do so without their permission can be punished as well. Making money from Riot's game isn't automatically against any law even if they refuse to give permission. For example, if I choose to coach someone in it, Riot has no claim and it doesn't matter if they give permission. I can also make YouTube videos with a little footage from their game and they'd have no claim. Boosting is of course against the rules (probably not legally speaking but still, it's understandable), but there needs to be a very credible reason to ban an account not related to boosting. That was his Challenger climb account and he was not boosting on it. That reason holds no water. If it was toxicity to the level that merits a ban, they need to provide him with logs. It shouldn't be "ban and ask questions later." Did he even get any prior punishments on it? I wouldn't normally care much about this but it feels so strange for it to happen now and on an account tarzaned was trying to do his rank 1 climb on. I just don't think tarzaned would jeopardize that with toxicity and even if he were toxic, he just started playing ranked on it this month. Was he really so bad as to merit a ban so soon? It just seems very suspicious. I think even last year when he got rank 1, he wasn't actually banned then and that was after a lot of games. Has he really gotten so much worse about it all the sudden on an account he really cares about? It doesn't add up and I wish Riot would clarify. They need to give solid proof on this or it just looks like they're playing favorites and not applying rules uniformly/to the same standards of evidence.
Vallalan (NA)
: 1800 range is way too high. if his range was nerfed to where it capped at maybe his level 11 range he would be healthy. but you really are underestimating how big 1800 range is. like you can hit people from fog of war over a screen away. you can poke people and they can't even see you.
> [{quoted}](name=Charlie Tilts U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Bt0ROna,comment-id=002100000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:34:53.458+0000) > > 1800 range is way too high. if his range was nerfed to where it capped at maybe his level 11 range he would be healthy. > > but you really are underestimating how big 1800 range is. like you can hit people from fog of war over a screen away. you can poke people and they can't even see you. it isn't at all considering the rest of his kit and that's why he has the shit mid winrates that he does (low 40s on leagueofgraphs) you're just blinded by one ability (which again, isn't even good poke vs normal targets after the changes and it takes 30 minutes to reach that 1800 range) I could sit here and make a huge thread about how OP Yasuo's windwall is or Fizz's E, Kayn's E or Brand's R or a million other things. None of those abilities exist by themselves. Ultimately, what determines whether something is OP or not is actual performance in higher ELO as well as competitive.
ErnestoXP (EUW)
: Give Veigar an "execution" sign like that of Cho'gath's and new Eve's ult.
idk, this is one of the skills of an experienced veigar
Vallalan (NA)
: ap kog is fine. its still viable. it just takes longer to ramp up and his wave clear isn't quite as good although its still good. Ive played it a few times since the nerfs. its not strong as in meta strong, but its not bad either. and that's how it should be. his ult has 1800 range on a 1 second cooldown late game. that's stupid. sure its gated by rising mana cost, but with a huge mana pool (seraphs + nomicon) its pretty easy to spam like 4 or 5 of them and then wait to reset for poke. and then in a team fight u can jsut exhaust your entire mana pool. nevemrind that is E has huge range and does a shit ton of damage with ap. the main play pattern of ap kog is the ult though. and that ult has to be gated the way it is. if it goes back to the way it was you can just endlessly spam that shit and reset very quickly. it makes siege kog insanely oppressive if the enemy does not have dive. hell he STILL is if the enemy does not have a way of getting to him. AP kog is super unhealthy. fun, but unhealthy. and this is coming from a player who had an account dedicated to just playing ap kog. I don't think you should want ap kog to be buffed anyway because if hes strong enough to be meta that means he is banned and if hes banned you can't play him.
> [{quoted}](name=Charlie Tilts U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Bt0ROna,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2017-09-29T20:15:08.476+0000) > > ap kog is fine. its still viable. it just takes longer to ramp up and his wave clear isn't quite as good although its still good. > > > Ive played it a few times since the nerfs. its not strong as in meta strong, but its not bad either. > > and that's how it should be. > > his ult has 1800 range on a 1 second cooldown late game. > > that's stupid. sure its gated by rising mana cost, but with a huge mana pool (seraphs + nomicon) its pretty easy to spam like 4 or 5 of them and then wait to reset for poke. and then in a team fight u can jsut exhaust your entire mana pool. > > nevemrind that is E has huge range and does a shit ton of damage with ap. > > the main play pattern of ap kog is the ult though. > > and that ult has to be gated the way it is. > > if it goes back to the way it was you can just endlessly spam that shit and reset very quickly. it makes siege kog insanely oppressive if the enemy does not have dive. hell he STILL is if the enemy does not have a way of getting to him. > > > AP kog is super unhealthy. fun, but unhealthy. and this is coming from a player who had an account dedicated to just playing ap kog. > > > I don't think you should want ap kog to be buffed anyway because if hes strong enough to be meta that means he is banned and if hes banned you can't play him. It's not unhealthy in the slightest with the current kit (you may have a point if you're talking about his kit back when R did double damage to champions regardless of HP). Anything can be made to sound that way on paper. The truth is, AP Kog is the opposite of unhealthy to such an extent that he's barely viable. He's not a Riven with infinite jumps and shields or an Ekko who does what he pleases then ults. when in trouble or as a finisher, a Kassadin diving your back line then blinking out every 2 seconds, or Morg mid (basically ungankable, pushes and spellvamps up while shielding damage... she Qs you die if it lands) etc. Despite his range, he has a very unforgiving style and is more dependent on his team/vision than other champions. Just because something has long range (and his poke's pathetic now unless you're at his thresholds) doesn't automatically make them unhealthy and nor can you focus on a single ability then make it out to be that the entire champion is unhealthy just because that one thing is strong. AP Kog's problem is actually that there is TOO MUCH counterplay to him both in terms of strategy and just mechanically. Plus, with how his kit is now, you absolutely have to use his entire kit if you don't want to be a liability. The old sit back and R style does not work outside of cleanup.
: 2 Strongest champion in League right now are Veigar and Azir. based on my recents wins with them.
I tried Veigar a lot (but some bad matchups like vs Fizz) and I think he's in a decent spot. I can't snowball early enough to justify using them in super low ELO though.
: > [{quoted}](name=SirLime,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=PVEOEOcE,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-13T20:25:11.214+0000) > > Nope. The first warning is already a punishment (like a chat restriction or suspension) which reduces honor and possibly season rewards.. let me ask you... you've been banned for 14 days which suggests severe violation... would a pop-up saying to cool it down actually work on you?
> [{quoted}](name=maTc,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=PVEOEOcE,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-13T20:31:39.120+0000) > > let me ask you... you've been banned for 14 days which suggests severe violation... would a pop-up saying to cool it down actually work on you? I haven't been banned but I did get a chat restriction on a new account without using profanity, racial slurs, homophobic remarks, ad hominems etc. or anything of the nature. It was mainly just a disagreement about champion viability and apparently that's not allowed on here. I NEVER received ANY warning. The first thing was a chat restriction for 10 games and the "evidence" was complete BS. Even totally out of context so as to make me look crazy and angry, it still seemed like complete BS. People control what you can say if they don't like it even if you are not objectively being rude about it. However, that's not what's under discussion now. You do NOT get any warning prior to punishment as the game is now and you also never get any notification of having been reported for any game.
: 1st you get the "You've been acting unsportsmanlike" warning in your client then there are chat restrictions and ultimately ban... Ofc if you tell someone to hurt himself or other severe violations of riot policies those "light" forms of punishments are skipped and it's good to be so EDIT: Also prolonged queue but i guess that doesn't apply for flaming
> [{quoted}](name=maTc,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=PVEOEOcE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-07-13T20:24:58.974+0000) > > 1st you get the "You've been acting unsportsmanlike" warning in your client then there are chat restrictions and ultimately ban... Ofc if you tell someone to hurt himself or other severe violations of riot policies those "light" forms of punishments are skipped and it's good to be so > > EDIT: Also prolonged queue but i guess that doesn't apply for flaming You do not get the unsportsmanlike error or any other. You used to but now the first thing that happens is a chat restriction (yes, on a new account). Also, I found that error inaccurate. It should have been "Some players find you to be unsportsman etc.." instead of pretending it's bestowing you with infallible truth from the gods.
: Hey Meddler, what do you think about Veigar? He has quite low winrate
> [{quoted}](name=enderrborn,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qXAN1k8U,comment-id=004c,timestamp=2017-07-14T19:20:01.417+0000) > > Hey Meddler, what do you think about Veigar? He has quite low winrate They probably thing Veigar is so far from being good at higher levels that buffs might break him lower. I don't know though.
Cabruh (NA)
: "That means buffs to TF, {{champion:245}}, Ziggs, Xerath and potentially one or two more." Never yessed so hard to {{champion:245}} buffs in my entire life.
> [{quoted}](name=Cabruh,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=qXAN1k8U,comment-id=0046,timestamp=2017-07-14T18:28:32.997+0000) > > "That means buffs to TF, {{champion:245}}, Ziggs, Xerath and potentially one or two more." > > Never yessed so hard to {{champion:245}} buffs in my entire life. Ziggs will still likely be worthless unless they show their mid laner though. Champions like Kassadin can dodge his entire rotation and take half his health in their rotation at level 6. If Ziggs tries to push them in with superior waveclear, he just gets camped by the jungle and since his mobility is low, Kassadin + a J4 etc. will crush him. Unless you're Bjergsen with 4 wards around you, he's really tough to play mid lane. I haven't tried bot personally ever since ADC scaling got sped up. He can't compete with ADCs past mid game and becomes a liability then so he had to get a big lead from FB turret etc. early. Also, Ziggs has only mild pressure even in good matchups. He's not like Viktor Ahri who can waveclear well but also solokill you from nearly full hp. He plays like a late game champion without actually being one. His waveclear is good but his roams are awful and pushing your opponent in is risky if you don't know where the jungler is so it's hard to use it effectively unless the team groups. I'd rather have a Cassioo on my team for late game AND the option to solo kill or maybe a Taliyah for fast waveclear (SAFELY) and good roaming. I don't know what Ziggs needs exactly but I think he should probably be more late game focused since his roams suck and he can't solo kill competent players (plus, his thing was supposed to be stalling out games and keeping your team in it so it would only make sense if he actually had an above average late).
Drugoth (NA)
: As far as I'm aware, you do get feedback from the system when you've been reported.
> [{quoted}](name=3SheetsTotheWind,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=PVEOEOcE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-13T20:20:05.586+0000) > > As far as I'm aware, you do get feedback from the system when you've been reported. Nope. The first warning is already a punishment (like a chat restriction or suspension) which reduces honor and possibly season rewards..
: Chat restrictions do exist. They are the lightest form of penalty. An escalation schedule exists that will increase the severity of penalties for players who constantly get them. However, that does not mean that the first penalty every player gets is a chat restriction. > Is this intended? Or is the system bugged? It is intended. Please do be aware that the next penalty after a 14-day ban, without showing sufficient reform, is a permanent ban.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=PVEOEOcE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-13T19:47:59.019+0000) > > Chat restrictions do exist. > > They are the lightest form of penalty. An escalation schedule exists that will increase the severity of penalties for players who constantly get them. However, that does not mean that the first penalty every player gets is a chat restriction. > > It is intended. Please do be aware that the next penalty after a 14-day ban, without showing sufficient reform, is a permanent ban. That seems excessive without any prior warning. At least show a warning when someone gets reported frequently (unless they're false reports) or SOME form of feedback. If you're going to be that harsh on mere words, it would be MUCH more helpful for game health to focus that energy on people intentionally trolling in-game, inting, afking etc.
: Just wanna point out... it's spelled "Nazi", no T in there. In case you ever are writing an essay or something, ya know.
> [{quoted}](name=ƒåÞ GøÐ,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=6Xq714Px,comment-id=003400000001,timestamp=2017-07-12T06:38:30.219+0000) > > Just wanna point out... it's spelled "Nazi", no T in there. > > In case you ever are writing an essay or something, ya know. Thank you. I mean that genuinely. I have no clue why people get mad online when they're corrected for incorrect language usage.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 11
I think I tried pinging an item on a player after pressing tab and it didn't work. It would be nice if that was supported too. Also, do pings work for active items like Zhonyas to show your CD? I'm guessing so.
: Well, good morning. 1. You didn't get banned because of what someone else called you. You got banned for bringing your argument and frustration with the Lux to ALL chat and using racial slurs. Riot takes hate speech very seriously. 2. You penalty was also escalated because you were recently off a 14-day ban. 3. In the future, don't ask other people to submit reports. There is no advantage. Simply report them yourself, and they will be held accountable for their behavior. There is no reason to bring yourself into the crossfire. 4. I am going to remove this ban. The Lux was clearly trolling, and trying to get a reaction out of you. But seriously, don't bring drama into all chat. 5. In your next game, consider playing Aatrox. Seriously, that guy needs love.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=6Xq714Px,comment-id=0034,timestamp=2017-07-11T18:15:39.607+0000) > > Well, good morning. > > 1. You didn't get banned because of what someone else called you. You got banned for bringing your argument and frustration with the Lux to ALL chat and using racial slurs. Riot takes hate speech very seriously. > > 2. You penalty was also escalated because you were recently off a 14-day ban. > > 3. In the future, don't ask other people to submit reports. There is no advantage. Simply report them yourself, and they will be held accountable for their behavior. There is no reason to bring yourself into the crossfire. > > 4. I am going to remove this ban. The Lux was clearly trolling, and trying to get a reaction out of you. But seriously, don't bring drama into all chat. > > 5. In your next game, consider playing Aatrox. Seriously, that guy needs love. "Riot takes hate speech very seriously." OK, but using a word isn't automatically hate speech. If I say, "the Natzis were bad" am I now a Natzi or otherwise offensive because I used the term? Context ALWAYS matters. This case certainly seems more reasonable in the context of a previous 14-day suspension. However, the problems it shows about the automated system still exist even if this one is resolved. One big issue is that false reports can bring someone closer to the punishment threshold so while some people get extra leeway, the ones reported more often (even falsely), do not have that same leeway if they had a bad day. I'm not saying it's acceptable to lash out but any fair system should have the same thresholds for everyone, just like my neighbor and I have to follow the same speed limits.
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SirLime

Level 30 (NA)
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