Elphege (EUW)
: Kleptomancy should not give Elixir of Skill.
It's also **really** annoying on the other end because once you use it you will forever have your "level-up" arrows above your abilities.
: No FUCKING way ezreal and sona are playable against
> and for Sona. she has been meta for 3 straight years. Is that so?
: Can we start seeing actual fun game modes again?
Just curious- when was the last Ascension mode? I don't remember seeing it recently.
Rioter Comments
Hellmet (NA)
: Right to decline Autofill
> I don't care how long it takes me to find a game I don't want to play support. I'd rather sit there for 30 minutes You not caring is all well and good- that change makes **everyone** have to wait. I for one am not okay wasting 30 minutes *not* playing a game I'm signed into and trying to play. Also frankly Fill isn't going to be support much longer, every time I do it I get ADC.
: What is something SPECIFIC you wished Riot would make in a skin to a champion you like?
A Paladin version of Malzahar- a "good guy" version that's more than a color-swapped base. Alternatively, a "void" Malzahar. Currently he still is human or so- he just likes the void. Take it a step farther and have him actually resemble a void-being.
: Laziness on riots part. Why bother committing effort to something when you can make up some poor excuse like clarity and brush it off.
"Laziness" huh? Makes sense. Go through all the work and expense of making the animation, test it out, and then decide, after the money is spent and feedback is received and evaluated, to undo the change and essentially toss away the money. 10/10 reasoning.
GigglesO (NA)
: It took me 5 seasons to grind out all of the champs...
I thought of making a similar thread myself but I don't know what season I for sure started to make the comparison. I know I was playing during the perma-ban period of Kassadin but beyond that it's fairly up in the air. I **still** don't have all the champions either. Granted, I've only got about 10 left I think, several of which I don't think I'll be purchasing as I have no interest in some of them. However, I know for sure if the xp system existed previously- I'd be a long ways from 30 by now.
: > [{quoted}](name=SociopathFriend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itlfY2ZA,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-15T18:33:58.384+0000) > > Citation needed I know its hard for you in bronze to think darius can be fought at melee range but its possible Jax, riven, chogath, jayce to a lesser extent, fiora, tryndamere, illaoi, yorick, etc
> I know its hard for you in bronze I know it's hard to imagine- but not everyone in LoL feels the need to measure their E-dick with Ranked matches. I only ever play Ranked when forced by friends- which usually is placements and then like a handful of matches.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Ezreal doing 115 damage (after armor) per Q at lvl 1 with a dorans blade
> if you cant hotfix him then just disable him so we dont lose a ban slot to this fker. That IS one use of ban slots- banning something that's broken and stronger than it should be.
: > [{quoted}](name=FullMetaIchemist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=itlfY2ZA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-15T16:34:59.122+0000) > > well yeah but most toplaners are melee soooo A lot of melees have good enough disengage or can even just fight darius straight up soooooo
> or can even just fight darius straight up soooooo Citation needed
: It's ok, you'll use it twice in the semester.
Twice more than I used my Chemistry book. Passed the class without ever opening the thing and resold it to the store at the end of the semester- still in its protective wrapping.
: But why is this not addressed MORE publicly? Why is there not riot thread saying "hey guys, we messed up, but this is what happened in the previous patch cycle" unless im blind I do not see this thread or announcement anywhere, its just on this thread alone. So people are going to continue to say "hey look I made this much ip before wtf riot" and unless they read this thread they are not going to know that there was this bug. It was NEVER mentioned in the pre-season patch notes either. I dont agree on stealth nerfing. Where you change a bug or mechanic and not mention it to the WHOLE public, it feels sleazy. EVEN if no one noticed it, still. Like you just brushed something under the carpet and kinda hope that no ones notices.
Because the **patch notes** exist to tell you about bugs and how they're fixed? Riot isn't going to address every given problem on the boards when there's an *official place and time* to address them all. The next patch would logically be the time that such a thing is brought up.
: How? Genuinely curious, how is he doing that?
Just reverse-calc the number. Q = 125% AD + 35 200 = X +35 165 = X 165 / 1.25 = 132 AD He gets half of that just for existing at level 1. So between Runes and his first item he needs either 60 AD to do it in raw damage. Or it might be factoring in stuff like Aery or one of the runes that apply damage- which I don't know off the top of my head. However I would consider that dishonest since it's no longer 'just' his Q and I also can't factor in enemy armor.
: Except that the essences you receive do not match up your plans for "faster champion aquiring" My wife recently just started playing league, and at level 5 she only owns 3 champions with not enough blue essences to even pick up another. her first capsule which gave her the 3rd champion consumed ALL 2200 essences on the champion she loved (it matches her RL name and she's seen me play her a few times) I understand that it is preseason.. but please riot, stop looking at pure math and instead focus on players concerns as well. I have faith that you'll fix the system for both new and old players.
If you make a system that gives people back 3 apples every time they press a button, but they insist they don't feel like they're being given 3 apples AND some are insisting they are not, in fact, being given 3 apples- you do have to address that while the feelings they have are valid- they are most definitely being given 3 apples. Many of the people who feel like they aren't being given 3 apples may only feel that because they don't believe they've getting 3 apples.
: Damn Calad, it takes actual cojones to show a riot flair in these kinds of threads. Especially now that the entirety of the front page is littered with complaints.
It's preaseason and the game didn't suddenly shift into perfect balance- yet at the same time now everything is ruined because of how much it changed. Fanbase gonna fanbase.
: > [{quoted}](name=CGHCGH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2KcsxWX,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-11T03:13:27.432+0000) > > When I first started playing, I randomly picked ryze in the tutorial thing (choice of Ashe, Ryze, or Garen), and I almost gave up on league because I had no idea how his kit worked. Why not switch it out for something like annie? I assume that at some point ryze was easy, but 78 reworks later his kit is definitely not the best for someone's first or second tutorial in the game > [{quoted}](name=ValyrianBlade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2KcsxWX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-11T03:21:06.260+0000) > > Upvoted because your right. > [{quoted}](name=SEKAI,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2KcsxWX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-11T04:18:55.466+0000) > > As such old Ryze was put in the tutorial because he's one of the easiest to pick up, and should be taken down now. > [{quoted}](name=Erockandroll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2KcsxWX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-11T03:50:22.742+0000) > > One of the reds made a statement regarding this. I think they wanted to change it at some point. (And it completely fell on the back burner.) What are all you even talking about?! Ryze was removed from Battle Training **AGES** ago. https://i.imgur.com/X6CQpfE.png Seventy upvotes, good god....
: So, with this new system, you will need to be level 322 to get all the champions BE. However, how does that compare to the old system? How many games would you have to play to get all the champions, with IP? Well, the total cost of champions, in IP, is the same as the current BE, 538,350, so that's the number you need to reach. For simplicity sake, I'm going to say that you play 10 games a day, you win 5 and lose 5, and each game lasts approximately 25 minutes. Each victory would grant you 75.8 IP, with each loss granting you 51.125 IP. Becuase numbers, these will be rounded to 76 and 51 IP. So, every ten games you would be earning _380 (Victory IP) + 255 (Loss IP) + 150 (first win o' the day)_, or _785 IP_. Now, _538,350 / 785_ is _717.8_. It would take you 717.8 days, or 1.96 years, of playing ten games a day, to buy all the champions. The total number of games needed, 7,718. So, while the new system seems crazy in how much you need to grind for all the champions, don't forget the old system was pretty much the same.
I forget when exactly I started, it was before Talon/Kass/Leblanc had their silences messed with- I know that. I've since been playing fairly consistently, I still don't have all of the champions. In fact I think I'm a good 20 short.
: > 60 minutes of gathering storm I will sooner believe the Poppy got killed by bugged Shaco missile from someone else's game than the game lasting 60 minutes.
I wouldn't. A lot of players love drawing out the defeat of the enemy when they're super ahead. Teamfight, wipe them all out, clear jungle, back, repeat until you're bored.
: Arcane Comet On Teemo
This is the sort of shenanigans I'm looking forwards to in pre-season. All the various champions learning wacky interactions with the runes.
AngelMex663 (EUNE)
: Heartseeker Nami
I'm traditionally a Nami-main but I can't find myself liking any of her current skins enough to buy them- this? This I would buy- the second it came out and I logged on.
: Please don't buy the new Blitzcrank skin...
So you're going to boycott the skin for a reason that Riot has expressed as something they do not like but also cannot help? Sounds legit. They had a new walking animation- feedback was stopping people from recognizing Blitzcrank at all. The comparison IIRC was made to Star Guardian Soraka's homeguard animation where she flies out with wings- people were straight-up not recognizing the champion.
nGio (NA)
: It's funny that if my Amazon order isn't fucking PERFECT, they sometimes let me keep the product AND refund me, extend my Prime membership for free, etc. Either way, they bend over backwards to make sure that I remain a valued customer. Gaming companies and ISPs are the 2 business interactions where you're supposed to just feed them money and not ask questions. It's because of people like you, who just take it and don't know any better. If the dude wants a better walk animation then let him demand it, because he holds the money, and he has the power to do it. If Riot tells him to fuck off, then he can take his money somewhere else. Either way, the customer is king, and he can say whatever the fuck he wants about a product someone is attempting to sell him.
> It's funny that if my Amazon order isn't fucking PERFECT, they sometimes let me keep the product AND refund me, extend my Prime membership for free, etc. Either way, they bend over backwards to make sure that I remain a valued customer. Except this skin is perfect- in no way does it not function as Riot intends. Whether this meets your expectations is another thing entirely.
: BC is only useful on champions that can stack it quickly (like Lucian with his ult and passive or MF with her ulti). Speaking of BC, I'm sure Ashe can fully proc it with one auto attack while her Q is activated. Tbh the only ADC champion I see FM being built on is Kog tbh
> Speaking of BC, I'm sure Ashe can fully proc it with one auto attack while her Q is activated. I believe that was specifically one of the virtues Riot was talking about when they explained her rework.
: AP shouldnt be played to force tanks to buy MR
> Before mages / ap assasins were chosen due their kits, they could rely on them damage or utility, now ap are just play to force tanks build mr {{champion:34}} No utility here {{champion:245}} Nope, definitely no utility {{champion:3}} Utility? What's that? {{champion:7}} Beats me- sounds like something that isn't damage {{champion:99}} Don't we all have that? Crowd control or shields of some kind? {{champion:90}} Some of us have both. {{champion:25}} Clearly all we offer is damage. {{champion:61}} Don't people routinely get mad at me for all of my utility? {{champion:13}} Nobody knows what to make of me. {{champion:50}} I find this list suspicious- AP tanks aren't a thing? {{champion:32}} Fair point. {{champion:17}} Nope, we only exist to do damage and force tanks to build mr. {{champion:45}} Some of us still get around that too.
Echoing (NA)
: [CCOS] October CCOS Entry Time! Enter Here!
Alas, I didn't manage to enter this one. I've started having the (ironic) problem of enjoying my character designs to the point of wanting them for my own worldbuilding- not entering into LoL contests. I'm definitely going to try one for November.
Seen (NA)
: Why is Malz allowed to be uninteractive
Kassadin was nerfed because you **could not** outplay him. His innate was a flat "I take less magic damage" stat. His Q silenced you on a ranged point-and-click. His W is an AA-modifier. His E is a point-blank AoE that's almost impossible to miss and it comes up sooner if you use spells (which you would). His R was (at the time) the most spammable mobility the game had to offer, did damage, and had reduced mana costs when he hit you. Let's look at Malz then, shall we? Innate is a damage reduction/cc immunity shield that can be removed by a spell or AA. Q has a delay and is a skillshot. W summons voidlings can be basically oneshot by any ability. E is still point-and-click and still jumps- and does very little damage without Q or W interacting with it to add on damage or refresh. R is still point-and-click and still locks you down- now with an AoE around you- but locks Malzahar in place as well. And since the shield seems to be the biggest problem, let's remember that it comes back after 30/24/18/12 seconds of *not taking damage or cc*. It's not a flat 30 seconds until you get it back- it's 30 seconds of you basically not touching Malzahar at all.
Seen (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ka05YvnI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-05T07:10:37.253+0000) > > Most adcs are uninteractive rn, they get ahead thanks to their babysitter and right click, alt, delete players, malz has no viable keystone in the rune update so hes getting nerfed hard Adc still have to risk each other's poke while laning. Malz can just drop an E, eat a spell, play safe until his shield comes back up. If he was at 50% win rate, I wouldn't say anything, but he's consistent at a 54% ish win rate with a large percentage of players playing him.
> Adc still have to risk each other's poke while laning So does Malz, one of the lower-ranged mages. Even with his shield up he's still "risking" poke. >Malz can just drop an E Context is a bit lacking but I imagine you mean he'll clear the entire wave with an E alone- which is straight-up wrong. He'll have to help it along with AAs, W voidlings, or using his Q. > eat a spell, play safe until his shield comes back up Or an auto-attack. And Malz is far from the only champion that doesn't want to go near enemy champions when an ability is on cooldown. > but he's consistent at a 54% ish win rate Win rate does not make a champion OP or requiring nerfs. It can also mean the meta is favoring them. It can also mean the itemization the character uses is strong. It can also mean the masteries the champion uses are strong. Or, it can mean the flip-side of this. The itemization used to counter them is weak. The masteries that are for other champions in the same role are weak. The meta might not be favorable to the natural counter.
Daunt (EUNE)
: That can be applied to any other lane as well. My mid just gave 4 kills to the enemy mage/assassin. The jungler came and they took the first blood turret. Afterwards they roamed bot/top and got another objective as well as some kills. Competely lost control of the jungle. The game was over by the 7th minute. See? Stop making so many shit posts. Snowballing has been happening way before this meta.
I remember back during the Assassin meta where giving a Kat 4 kills meant she'd penta your entire team anytime you grouped to fight.
: Adc's drop insanely in power when the new runes hit fervor is gone and it'll wreck there damage, I promise. I've been on pbe for DAYS and i can tell you they are a joke. Predator on darius is the most terrifying thing you'll ever see..... A darius with ghost and predator running at you with 1400 movement speed and u can't stop it, how do you feel about that? Blue kayn with predator is atrocious 2000+ MS it's your worst nightmare it'll litterally kill an adc with this combo auto and w (maybe a 2nd auto) and throw in a q to clean up your w alone will deal 1200 damage with the predator burst
I'd guess ADCs are rather weak given that FILL now means ADC. Typically players **love** being the class with the most OP and easy stuff to win. Fill shoving me to ADC implies the opposite- they're now if not the worst role- they're certainly perceived as weak. I even asked why Fill was putting me in ADC in a LoL discord and the response was, "They're not the carry class anymore."
: He'll learn to be more humble after this. That joke showed he clearly isn't as humble as his fans make him out to be.
Or he just wanted to make a joke. You can be humble and still joke about that sort of thing- the two aren't exclusive.
Thornhub (EUW)
: He's basically the undertaker of LoL at this point.
Nymzo (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Elphege,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=LrY80RWi,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-11-03T22:40:12.461+0000) > > Never said he needed to be zippy! But a young, heroic character with an optimistic attitude hearkens back to the main characters of such games in my youth. How about a young tactician? (since Swain will drop the tactician title) Make him thinks like he's the smartest guy around him. Don't make him edgey, make him an arrogant and cocky guy who thinks he is always 3 steps ahead of everyone else.
Good lord you want the kid from Black Butler.
: I'm struggling to find a positive comment on the facebook video teaser.
> [{quoted}](name=Mymyamiaou,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=94w7FRsP,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-11-03T15:54:35.028+0000) > > I'm struggling to find a positive comment on the facebook video teaser. Good luck finding positive comments on Facebook lol
: New Champ: Zoe, the Aspect of Twilight preview
Riot must be doing something right- I got tired just by looking at her. Look at all that energy and frantic desire to play- a child indeed.
: Alistar brings CC into a gank, but trades damage and mobility (for the sake of engagement time and angle of approach). I mean they seem to have no problem with, {{champion:33}} as a jungler.
Slight difference, Rammus CC's you and you basically stay still, Ali CC's you and will throw you right out from under your turret to the enemy.
: Its a real sad state of affairs when EKKO is considered to be one of the more balanced and non frustrating champs to play against.
Well, about 80% of the champions don't really get bitched about all that much.
: It is time for AP to have something to block/negate physical damage
I've never liked this line of reasoning. *It's not fair* implies the classes are supposed to have the same itemization. This premise falls dreadfully flat when you consider a massive portion of the boards practically beg Riot to slap melee-only on half-a-dozen items. AD assassins (please, spare me the ADC joke) are essentially all melee and require closing a gap to get to a mage. AP mages are essentially ranged, from relatively short-range like Annie to stuff like Xerath that will blast you across the lane. AP mages shouldn't have that many defensive options. Your job is to keep the enemy away. The few that are supposed to be close-ranged all have defensive tools in their kits- shields, healing, damage reduction, etc. If you're caught out of position, whiff your skillshots, or the enemy successfully flanks you- you're not supposed to just tank it and live while still doing damage. One of the main reasons ADC has been such a hot topic of annoyance is how much survival potential they have.
: An odd Irelia request.
Well it comes off as a bit off since she'll respawn. Imo the 'death' animations should be more like 'incapacitated' animations. KO'd from Final Fantasy for example, you're not dead, just out of the fight.
: Fair. I'll change him.
Well he did apparently solo a ghost-army headed towards civilization- though his motives were unclear as to why.
: Given how many people have brought up Zyra, I think I'll move her to Nonstandard. And you explaining Malzahar actually makes a lot of sense; after the void goes away for good, will he not be evil anymore?
> after the void goes away for good, will he not be evil anymore? Uncertain, but that uncertainty is why I think he should be a category up from where he is. The last level is for no redemption- champions that will revel in being morally bad and not care. Malz, for better or worse, thinks the world is screwed and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. The choice (in theory) was never his. We don't know what he would do given the choice- which is why I'd advocate moving him up. Although I will be honest- Riot kinda hasn't given a distinction how Malzahar's future sight works alongside characters in the game time traveling, which would be a big deal.
: I own that skin and the silhouette still resembles blitz very much dunno about the new lancer since I haven't seen much but I'm assuming the character model is different enough from the normal big arm big chest tiny everything else that you'd subconsciously identify as blitz
> [{quoted}](name=flibitydoo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=H2AGF5Mo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-02T07:15:32.438+0000) > > I own that skin and the silhouette still resembles blitz very much > > dunno about the new lancer since I haven't seen much but I'm assuming the character model is different enough from the normal big arm big chest tiny everything else that you'd subconsciously identify as blitz It does indeed look very different.
: If you're a jungle support player then you have no clue how to manipulate waves. Nothing pisses me off more than freezing top lane right outside my tower only for my jungle to ruin it.
If you're a laner then you have no clue how to gank or ward jungle. See how well that mentality works?
: Love The Fact We Can Choose The Next Illaoi Skin, but...
I still think Dunkmaster Illaoi would be weird tentacle-wise. Most suggestions implied they should be hoops but... hoops just don't move like that.
: Sliding Scale of Champion Morality
Good list, solid list, although I think Zyra needs to be elsewhere- she's pretty hardcore neutral- she was a plant that had to eat things to live. D&D would paint that as "Unaligned". I don't know if Zyra's character post-transformation has been examined enough to put her in other camps. I do kinda think Malz needs to be Evil instead of Irredeemable. (IIRC disclaimer here) The dude can see the future and the future he saw has the Void winning- he basically got a look at his opponent's Poker-hand and saw a Royal Flush and folded and started telling everyone else at the table how boned they were. And if you could "join" a Poker-hand to not lose money- the analogy would be perfect. Sure, there's a bit more looking into void energies involved, but ultimately he's on that side because he knows without question (or so he thinks anyways) that the Void already won and there's nothing you can do about it. If somehow he could see a future where the Void didn't win- it's plausible he would be redeemed. This would be the key difference imo. Irredeemable implies nothing can change their minds- which Malz doesn't quite have as he's not insane nor is he evil out of malicious intent- but from fatalism. Most of his quotes even reflect this, "Do not challenge Fate's will." This is no different (theoretically) than you seeing someone walking down the street. [He can see the future.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO1TScQwu6g) In the old lore, Malz didn't actually DO anything bad. (IIRC disclaimer repeat) He was more of a raving lunatic that had people listening to him. Someone tossed a girl on-stage (Kass' daughter) and the journal very vaguely didn't specify whether Malz intended to kill her or not for presumably just this sort of thing. Kass showed up and tried blasting Malzahar who fought back- which basically blew up a city-block and sent Kass' daughter to the void. The only other lore is Malz and Kass fought in the mountains and accidentally killed Karthus in the crossfire- but he got better. Granted, Malz and Kass badly need a lore update.
Purgë (EUW)
: not really there still gonna pepole who gonna talk but it's gonna be a minor problem , but now trsitana and twitch and adc in general rushing 3 crit items in a row with warlords and fking ppl up from a far meanwhile bruiser and top lane carrys have no role in the game
Complaining about interactions with keystones is pretty pointless with the new runes on the way
jjcool99 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=warpenguin555,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LvxkLYRP,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-10-26T20:44:51.100+0000) > > Blizzard could try to fix it, but not sure why they would care about Riot's in game problem perhaps they have mercy for us because riot sure as hell does not care thats why they allow aram only accounts.
> [{quoted}](name=jjcool99,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=LvxkLYRP,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-10-26T22:12:08.484+0000) > > perhaps they have mercy for us because riot sure as hell does not care thats why they allow aram only accounts. 'Allow' in this case meaning, 'doesn't punish people for not buying every champion'- which is not something you're required to do. Also there's a massive confirmation bias for these ARAM only accounts, you're supposed to see ARAM-good champions more often than not- that's what the rerolls are for. That's something trading is used for. Not to mention I'm fairly certain Riot pushes you towards champions that are better in ARAM anyways since I own all but perhaps 15 champions at best- but I've rarely been given some of them in ARAM despite playing the mode extremely often. I think I've had Zed once in the several years the mode has been out- and yet I've probably had Janna a good 50x more often at least.
: Does anyone else think that Riot should've prioritize other champions for a rework before Irelia?
>they lack the armor penetration to chunk tanks and don't have an execution ult Voli has his bite based on missing health. I agree overall but like Irelia better so I'm glad she's next.
Dr Poro (EUW)
: Every year blitzcrank and Fervor Leona... Always Kayn and Nocturne jungle BOOOOOORING. I want to see some more orianna mid and tanks toplane. (s/ incase it wasn't obvious enough) On a serious note, apart from these odd picks many people mentioned here, OP is right. Every year in Worlds, most teams follow the same play pattern with the same champions. I can't really blame them for it, if you know something works, you'll stick to that. It's usually up to the underdog teams to make changes in the meta. Some of the blame is with Riot, though. They intentionally keep the meta stable around worlds so teams don't have to adjust too much. I'm not sure if this is the right way to go, since it means the meta will always be sort of figured out (nothing new for viewers). Another thing is that Riot always seems to keep certain champions competitively like Orianna and Syndra. Why do they have to show up every single year? Let midlaners explore more variety.
Note that those are two of the shorter-ranged mages? A year where artillery mages like Xerath and Ziggs are meta is a year where a champion pokes from half a screen away and is supremely boring to watch. Meanwhile, Syndra and Ori are very close to the action.
Warios66 (NA)
: So what would matches be like if in a 5 game series, if a champ is picked or was banned, it is taken out of the champ pool, regulating each following match to use something different.
Soooo put extra rules in place to punish the teams even farther when several regions (NA) already have issues putting competent teams forwards as it is?
Show more

SociopathFriend

Level 32 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion