: HoTS is a shitfest in every other aspect though
> [{quoted}](name=LaserDeathBlade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZcFXnKvI,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-05-17T02:05:36.019+0000) > > HoTS is a shitfest in every other aspect though But atleast they went back to a system that once worked for league.
: Balance Team Q+A: Ask Us Anything! [COMPLETE]
Are you guys doing anything for Sona? Ever since she lost her auras she has been absolutely shunned down as a support. The rework made her more useless than before. I've posted long time ago and I believe no one plays her at all. Never seen her since any tournament. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NJ72rEpB-4k-sona-games-master-tiers-perspective-of-53-sona?comment=0000
Rioter Comments
: *NOTE: I am not suggesting that all of these changes are implemented, merely providing some options. While I am not a Sona main, I am a support main, so I do have some sense of action in the bot lane. * I was on board with patch 5.1 where they decreased the damage on her q. I felt Sona was a little strong against any melee support, and it was almost a free lane. However, i think riot is taking the wrong direction in trying to modify her. Although i can't speak for base/scaling stat changes on HP, AD, Mana and MS,** I think the largest issue with {{champion:37}} still exists. The uses for her W or E power-cord are simply too far and few between to warrant not using the Q power cord every time you can.** Even before her rework the Q power cord was the most important. But, rather than nerfing the Q, buff the E and W power cords. The W passive is currently: “DIMINUENDO: If this spell was last cast when Power Chord is ready, Power Chord will also reduce the target's damage output by 20% (+ 2% per 100 AP) for 3 seconds.” * Perhaps make it scale? And not as in more or increased AP scaling, but rather the base damage. Changing it to 10/20/30/40/50 or 15/20/25/30/35 %, and maybe remove the AP scaling. * OR perhaps we increase the Debuff time to 4 seconds? * OR we could change the debuff to an AOE debuff. It doesn't have to be large, just the range of the Trist or Kayle E. It may not apply 20% to everyone, it could give smaller debuffs with the AOE The E passive is currently: “TEMPO: If this spell was last cast when Power Chord is ready, Power Chord will also slow the target by 40% (+ 4% per 100 AP) for 2 seconds.” * Again, consider scaling this to add more power. Change it to 30/35/40/45/50 or some variation, meaning a late game sona will have more reasons to use it, and she is no longer “oppressive” in lane. * Again, we can Increase the debuff time to 3 or 4 seconds * And again, it could be made AOE, either at full or reduced power. ***Forcing Sona's to make a cognitive decision on what to cast will help separate the good Sona's from the great Sona's.*** **Now onto the Auras themselves** There have also been complaints that with such a low aura range late game Sonas have to be in the front line to give the buffs to their team. Because Sona is so squishy, it is VERY easy for her to get killed by AOE or a simple switch in targeting by the enemy team. Straight up buffing the ranges may be seen as to strengthening, so why not make her ult increase the range of her auras like with Gnar? IE while the base aura range is 350 units, 1 point in the ult would make it 375 or 400 units, ETC, so with 3 points in ult her auras would be at the range of 425 or 500. This prevents oppresive laning while providing some safety in late game team fights. W shield has also been considered underwhelming. Perhaps increasing the duration of the shield from 1.5 seconds to 2 2.5 or 3 seconds. E has similar complaints, and the same potential fixes. Performing some of these changes could be compensated by lowering the Q power cord to 30% bonus damage instead of 40%, and maybe some base values on the abilities. That would be fine as long as you provided more options. TL;DR: Give {{champion:37}} a reason to use W or E power cord, and consider some other small changes can help bring her to a balanced and fun state.
I think that's another big solid argument, I'll make sure to include that next time. I did say that her skillset cooldowns were too long but I didn't say anything about the utilization of the powercords that comes with it. Very thorough analysis.
Vesarixx (NA)
: You make some excellent points here, one of the things that concerned me about the rework is the loss of her matching cool downs, it throws off the rhythm of queuing up the next power chord and gives more downtime when not using staccato. If they were going to go for the "more power for more cool downs" approach I think they should have added a charge effect similar to Vi's Q, charge up E for more speed but a higher cool down, W for a bigger heal and higher cool down, it also frees up a bit of her power budget since it's not instant cast for the full effect, you could even do the same for Q, making her poke more telegraphed if she wants to hit harder, giving her the ability to scale damage based on risk, it would also allow for faster charging of power chord stacks at the cost of some of the effectiveness of the individual spells, so you can once again get that 40% slow every 4.2 seconds in order to be more effective at peeling. I also made a suggestion a while ago with the possibility of adding a secondary portion to her passive and modifying Q. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/abXPdY0E-riot-an-open-letter-on-fostering-a-healthy-playstyle-for-sona
I think I actually like this "charge-hit". Feels like a Varus Q. It potentially gives the opponent to dodge the skill shot while in animation. Soild idea.
: Well tell that to OP.Anyway i think it was stealth changed despite them saying it wasn't.The same happened with her Q range.
I maybe wrong. But every time I ult, it just doesn't seem like the old one.
: Usually skin releases are followed by nerfs.
I wonder...new skin = becomes popular = Riot sees win rate = nerfs?
Altricad (NA)
: Well thought out post, I myself thought the auras were "meh, they don't show anything" but the math and the exact work has shown Riot's appaling treatment of Sona. You have to LOVE a champion in order to balance them properly, you have to APPRECIATE them to recognise their strengths. Currently I feel Riot has no sympathy to sona players, just seeing her 'q' as being "Oh, she presses q from a distance without repercussion. That is worrisome, so let's make her unviable!" I feel Riot sometimes doesn't want to deal with "difficult balance" issues and opts to make a former tier 1~2, into tier 3 just so that they can avoid the issue
Well look at some of the most detailed patches that tweaked maybe 1 or 2 stats on Sona. For example 5.1 patch BASE MOVEMENT SPEED 330 ⇒ 325 POWER CHORD DAMAGE AMPLIFICATION 50% ⇒ 40% How much of this nerf does Riot put their time and effort into? How much of that 5 movement speed and 10% damage reduction affects the game? Hardly. If they have this much time to affect the tiniest detail on Sona's stats, they have time to deal with "difficult balance" issues. Well that's my take on it.
Xtremey (NA)
: i think sona is a DD support ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Rioter Comments
MakersF (EUW)
: Sona is a late game support, and needs to be played like janna. Max W in lane, then E or Q depending on the matchup. Saying Sona is useless is like saying Siver is without a ulti: the mobility she offers to the team is incredible, the ability to engage/disegage is really good, can block/heal the pocke and support a full pocke comp. The Q feels a bit unrewarding, I give you that, but the rest of the kit is ok for me. I usually pick her with ummobile champs (she's really good with kog imho). Is she better than thresh/morgana/braum? Obviously not! The point is: are they too OP, or should all support be as them? Thresh can move an ally (that means negating kills and obj controll), braum can stop any dmg, morgana can send you afk for 3 seconds. This is not even with the ulties. And don't get me started on the hook, the shield and the passive of those 3. The point is that there are a few outliers that offers so much in comparison that no one can stand with them, but taken out those 3, I think Sona is completely comparable to the rest of the supports. If you know how to play her (and the OP keeps talking about poking in lane, and that's definitely NOT how I think she should be played) My idea is that the worst culprit is that if you want to make an utility build with some AP you don't have items as a support. I build medallion, crucible, sightstone, boots, then I'd like some AP and armor/MR, but there is no item to do that. Should I build a zhonya? Doesn't make sense? I can not build penetration because utility doesn't scale with penetration. I can not build Morello because I overcap CDR. Twin shadows is not bad but is not good eighter. The ryals passive is not triggered by my Q on-hit dmg, so again it would waste a passive. Deathcap as only AP item is not cost efficient, to DFG i should be premade with my team in order to know who and when use the active. The itemization for AP utility support is the problem here IMHO.
On the contrary, Janna is not a late game champion. Janna relies too much on how well the ADC does. She is actually much more viable than ever before after her tornado buff. Professional Janna players play her really aggressive due to synchronizing her abilities with the ADC. I actually had a lot of problems in climbing master-tier because of several good janna players. The biggest issue here is this, " If you know how to play her (and the OP keeps talking about poking in lane, and that's definitely NOT how I think she should be played)". If she isn't meant to poke in lane what are you suppose to do? You have a kit that is basically Q for poke, W for heal and E for movement speed buff. Powercord gives you extra damage, debuff, slow. So are you not suppose to poke in lane? Let the enemy support roll over you all day? Playing passive doesn't result in anything but a losing lane. Especially for Sona.
Dhenz (NA)
: dat link dont work
: Sona was reworked in large part because A) Her sustain in lane was annoying to deal with early and B) her power in the mid and late game was largely invisible other than her ultimate. Riot screwed up her Q. Fearless may have been in charge of communicating the rework to us but that doesn't mean that he was the deciding factor on every single change made to her, they probably have at least two or three designers working on each rework, and the lead designer (Meddler) most likely has to sign off on final changes before they go live. Her Q is undoubtedly worse, but the problem with a champion like Sona is that her power has to be balanced around the absolute best case scenario, which is all five champions benefitting from her aura at the same time. The problem with that is that it gives Sona a uniquely horrible disadvantage when one of her allies disconnects from a game, a large portion of her potential power goes out the window, while her general power is already weakened to compensate for her enormous potential power. That said, the real issue isn't with her rework, it's with the players. Players focus so hard on the laning phase that they fail to appreciate the power that Sona actually has. Sona is a late-game support, a champion who is designed to have a terrible early game but an amazing team fight power. This seems counter productive, after all supports were originally so popular BECAUSE of their strong early game, and they were given no gold because their scalings were terrible and therefore they needed no late game. So, how do players react when Riot emphasizes this aspect of her? They decry that she has worse poking power (not relevant, she's a heal/utility support, not a bully), that her shield duration is too short (a team shield shouldn't be up for more than a second anyway, but at least this rework gave Riot an excuse to nerf Thresh's team shield), that her auras require her to be too close to the team (a champion with no skill shots and auto targeting has difficulty positioning? Damn, I wish I could just close my eyes and slam my face against the keyboard like I used to!) and etc. Here's the thing: Your adcs are going to be jerks to you. That's just a shift in our meta. Everyone is so thirsty these days because Riot has made snowballing harder. ADCs feel like they don't have enough power in the mid game just by farming up a storm anymore, so they have to "win" lane instead of just "not lose" lane now. IGNORE THEM. As a support, your job is to help THE TEAM. Marksmen will always find a reason to whine at you, just take the abuse or mute until level 10 when the team fights start, and then coordinate with your top laner and jungler to use your Ardent Censer buff and your team shield to CRUSH your enemies. Don't worry about lane phase. Stay back, level W first and keep your wards up and just focus on surviving. Don't poke, don't go all-in, don't try and get your marksman kills because the risk is way too high for the reward. Instead, make it clear to your carry that you are going to play passive and if you're smart and you ward properly you won't feed. Then you get into mid game and you just outscale the enemy support too hard.
This is quite a very well thought-out response but I want to comment on some of your opinion. "That said, the real issue isn't with her rework, it's with the players. Players focus so hard on the laning phase that they fail to appreciate the power that Sona actually has. Sona is a late-game support, a champion who is designed to have a terrible early game but an amazing team fight power. This seems counter productive, after all supports were originally so popular BECAUSE of their strong early game, and they were given no gold because their scalings were terrible and therefore they needed no late game. " I don't believe the Old-Sona was ever in a position where her early game was weak. With the right mechanics and actual poking time, Sona would be able to control lane competitively with any of the current supports. Which means, dodging thresh hook while poking, trading damage output with nami's ebb and flow, focusing on the right target if leona does an all in, ext. Shouldn't players be punished if they shoot out spells randomly and miss their target? She does truely shine very well in late game but her early game was never the issue. We actually have to worry about lane phase in this meta. The adc would be down by cs which leads to snowball. Having to actually be passive vs several of these aggressive supports makes Sona and your adc in a pinch. The lane phase control gets completely out of hand and the snowball lane phase starts. The old sona was able to punish bad supports and transition lane phase into team phase.
: The entire goal of the new redesigns of summoners rift and the champions probably has some to do with visibility for people who watch the LCS. However, increased visibility is better for everyone, not just LCS viewers. They have mentioned that the design goal is to increase clarity for everyone.
But the problem is, the current Sona is just not viable anywhere. Did LCS or OGN ever play the reworked Sona? No. She is in need for direct base stat buffs. She is way too squishy in her current state.
  Rioter Comments
: @Fearless: After giving the Sona rework some time to sink in . . .
Ever since the change I have been less motivated to play her for several reasons. #1. Her damage output is less satisfying than the previous Sona #2. Her cooldowns have completely ruined Sona #3. Other supports just outclass her by far. (Nami's W, Thresh hook, Leona initiate) #4. There just seems to be no use for her at this meta. She gets outsustained, outdamaged, outganked. #5. Her range on her Q have been nerfed and it is stupid to be poking the opponent adc/support without getting punished. The pickrates and the winrates clearly show what an utter failure this change has come to. I am really dissapointed by these nerfs. She is even more of a weaker character pre-6. By the time she hits 6 there's already action going on but there isn't much Sona can influence. Her ult damage is weak, her Q damage is weak, powercord is weak. The only thing that's worth mentioning is maybe her boobs got a buff.
Fearless (NA)
: Sona Update Q&A
I know this is PBE, but from someone who has played Sona over 4000 games from Season 1 with 4 D1 sona accounts, this is going to ruin Sona completely. = Proof= http://www.lolskill.net/top?filterChampion=37&filterRealm= http://na.op.gg/ranking/champions/name=sona http://www.twitch.tv/best_dota_2_sona (I rarely stream so don't expect it) I have posted numerous times about the current state of Sona and how she fits well in the current meta. But when I read over these pbe changes it's gotten to a point where I want to quit league completely. (My challenger friends are already quitting if jungle timers are being implemented). The biggest issue with this patch is the 7 to 10 second cooldown increase. Sona is currently viable just because her Q pokes are constantly harassing the opponent ADC so that the ADC can't lifesteal or heal back up. But if you increase her cooldowns it's taking away the core aspect of Sona's viability in lane phase. What happens if you poke with Sona Q at level 1? You have to wait 9 (10-1) seconds (5/0/25 mastery or 9/0/21 mastery with 10% cd) for your next Q to come up and that goes on for the entire lane phase. So basically less pokes against leona or thresh who one shots you if they get a good E or Q? Sona is already having hard time vs braum thresh leona blitz, the current meta support champions. Why would you nerf her cds so that you can't even poke some of the hard counters? Have you seen Janna or Taric in ANY of the LCS OGN? NO. Fix the champions that needs fixing not Sona. I have always been lenient with the quality you have provided till now. But lately it's gotten to a point where I could careless and and expect less. As a Korean player who plays in NA server, I am getting sick and tired these garbage excuses. Gambit got screwed over because of a Visa problem. The Korean World LoL Cup fiasco. Now you ruin champions that doesn't even need fixing. How much more collateral damage do you wish to cause yourself? She might need a slight armor and health buff but still I don't even think that is necessary. Is Riot really going to right way of making this game more viable or is it ruining to their demise? Games die out because of the lack of fan base. The more you fix the champions the more the game turns to S***. Every champion that somehow gotten a rework turns out to be either OP or down right garbage. And when the champions are OP you nerf it to the ground where it turns out to be garbage. Do you think this is the correct way for a game to develop? Now all I see is just money hoarding garbage. Let's give it an example. Braum. So let's see, Braum comes out in League EXTREMELY OP where everyone would buy it not only for the looks of the champion, but also because he is OP in ranked (100% ban rate?). And when people buy the champion and feel that he is REALLY good(due to the OP stats) they have an impulse to buy the skin too. Why NOT buy a champion that is OP? Why not buy a skin for the champion that is OP? After about a month of revenue they probably decided Braum is too strong and is about time to nerf the champion. And look at it now, it's STILL being nerfed because he is still too strong. From an Ex-Dota 1 Tournament Player, I understand this game is hard to balance. I played dota 1 and dota 2 where all skills and champions have somewhat of a fixed value. There are no AP or AD influence in skills. League maybe slightly harder but there shouldn't be this much of a disparity. IceFrog and Guinsoo both are talented MOBA game producers. I love their work and their mechanics for each game. But personally, I think Riot is going downhill. Not only from a Korean point of view but also from a NA Riot Fan. I think I have written too much and while I've been typing this out all I have is anger and disappointment. I don't care if I am the world top 10 Sona player, this is going to ruin all Sona players at a whole new level. Thank you for reading. tl;dr Riot is going the wrong way with these patches.


Level 64 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion