Sirrkas (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=kEbEY9EA,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-22T17:31:08.838+0000) > > That's not true, at all > > And your response is one where you're defending the system, not actually addressing any of the grievances, and then putting it all on me lol > > I gave some basic parameters to "test", all of which were supposed to be "safe" actions, none of which where you "ask for reports or ZT suggestions" > > You say its bad argumentation, but I can't be wrong about safe actions to take AND be encouraging people to break the rules at the same time. > > The fact that you all bandwagon to protect a system that doesn't even pay you and lies to you as well just shows you don't moderate objectively, you moderate from your opinions. I've seen it over and over > > my point stands if it was just a "bad" argument you all wouldn't have locked it. If you just disagreed, you could've left it. By banning you prove you're all a part of a big system that lies and that you're helping them lie lol > > its pathetic---- If someone isn't kissing Riots ass or is a little upset, you shut them up by force or drop coddle posts where you give them misleading information. You just could provide your proof? Why is that so hard for you? Also, locking your topic has nothing to do with kissing someones bottom nor does it prove, you are right. It was just what the mods had to do, after what you wrote there.
> [{quoted}](name=Sirrkas,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=kEbEY9EA,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:38:54.212+0000) > > You just could provide your proof? Why is that so hard for you? > > Also, locking your topic has nothing to do with kissing someones bottom nor does it prove, you are right. It was just what the mods had to do, after what you wrote there. Because if they can justify locking down my thread for suggesting the system works differently, I have no doubts they'd turn right around seek permanent suspension against me. Bottom line is everything I suggested is within TOS and shouldn't have received punishments---- I never suggested ZT phrases or trolling---- so according to the rules used to lock my thread I didn't do anything wrong do you see the problem now? I can't be both wrong about "getting punished for mundane things" AND also be encouraging people to break the rules--- So either way moderation is wrong and should've left it
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:14:32.387+0000) > > You said can't because it doesn't exist? lmfao you've proven my point--- you're only on this thread to harass me > > https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/jlojNhME-test-results The moderator explained very clearly that your thread was locked for violating the boards rules for encouraging people to break the rules in game themselves. You did this at **multiple** points in the thread even after being warned by other players that your behavior violated the boards rules. Furthermore, you provided no evidence there even after being asked for it by others - something you did here until I asked three or four times for you to provide evidence (and even then the evidence doesn’t support your thread). I’m confused as to why you think this was because of “opinion”? If anything, this is one of the most clear moderation actions I’ve seen on the player behavior boards in recent weeks.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:16:33.097+0000) > > The moderator explained very clearly that your thread was locked for violating the boards rules for encouraging people to break the rules in game themselves. You did this at **multiple** points in the thread even after being warned by other players that your behavior violated the boards rules. Furthermore, you provided no evidence there even after being asked for it by others - something you did here until I asked three or four times for you to provide evidence (and even then the evidence doesn’t support your thread). > > I’m confused as to why you think this was because of “opinion”? If anything, this is one of the most clear moderation actions I’ve seen on the player behavior boards in recent weeks. The moderator is wrong--- as are you--- and honestly I'm arguing against satans choir at this point--- My post wasn't for you, or Aero (who also follows my posts to harass me) You saying "the moderator explained it" is not an argument, its you thinking that because moderator did it they are right. I couldn't be both right and wrong on the last post. And if you and moderation disagreed with me, well then it could've been left to rot in downvotes. Then there's the comments where the moderators were disrespectful, my responses (3) were struck for giving them their own attitudes. No cursing, no threats, still struck because "oh ho he's not being respectful of us ho ho". Then ofc, if a disagreement is about the rules themselves, and its a disagreement that suggest "code" isn't quite matching up with "the rulebook" then maybe it would've behooved moderation to leave it? Idk to let Riot look at it? Nah it had to be dogpiled because I didn't put up enough evidence to justify third party permanent ban--- which you would've loved, so instead I gave you all a quote from Riot. The quote wasn't enough. You all kept pestering for more evidence, to which I responded you are welcome to test my theory. As in, out of your own free will, at your own risk, and no where did I suggest ZT phrases or trolling/inting, but still, locked and struck You know why this discussion is done? Because in the last 4 threads I've had with you on it, without fail there are points I make you ignore and never answer.
Dr Dog (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:11:20.115+0000) > > No I've gotten mods punished before----- but then they did a re up of volunteers and it doesn't feel like anything has changed. > > This guy Rujitra is playing coy about it all too thats just proof that they do get punished if they are doing something wrong which is good, and they havent did a re up yet i believe interviews just ended recently actually
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:14:04.784+0000) > > thats just proof that they do get punished if they are doing something wrong which is good, and they havent did a re up yet i believe interviews just ended recently actually No that was awhile ago ---- I'm saying they haven't improved lol they brought on a bunch of more people and the same shit kept happening--- I don't get what you're trying to convince me of here?
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:09:37.532+0000) > > Dude-- why you playing ignorant? You were on that thread I don’t remember every single thread on the boards, as I’m sure you don’t remember every single thread either. It takes 5 seconds to copy a link and post it here (it takes a little longer to screenshot if it’s been deleted since I can’t see the deletion or the deleted thread, but still, it’s not that hard). Your refusal to do so even after I’ve asked 3 times now tells me that you can’t because it doesn’t exist.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:12:21.935+0000) > > I don’t remember every single thread on the boards, as I’m sure you don’t remember every single thread either. It takes 5 seconds to copy a link and post it here (it takes a little longer to screenshot if it’s been deleted since I can’t see the deletion or the deleted thread, but still, it’s not that hard). Your refusal to do so even after I’ve asked 3 times now tells me that you can’t because it doesn’t exist. You said can't because it doesn't exist? lmfao you've proven my point--- you're only on this thread to harass me https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/jlojNhME-test-results
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:04:43.068+0000) > > I filed a support ticket, they're investigating it > > Yes it does come into play if you're on the line of what may or may not be wrong. If the moderator doesn't like your opinion you can get a lock down or comment struck--- especially if its a critique aimed at a moderator who was giving you attitude in the first place. Well, yeah. And the police can arrest you and hold you for up to 72 hours (or longer if they claim “terrorism” or national security) for **no reason**. But they don’t (hardly) ever, or if they do they’ll quickly lose their jobs and likely be arrested and imprisoned *themselves* for it. Just because something **can** happen does not mean it *does* happen - and you’ve provided no proof that you had a “lock down or comment struck” because a “moderator doesn’t like your opinion”. I encourage you to provide **proof** of this if you have it - you can screenshot a deletion message if you want, or link to a thread that was locked.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:08:51.033+0000) > > Well, yeah. > > And the police can arrest you and hold you for up to 72 hours (or longer if they claim “terrorism” or national security) for **no reason**. But they don’t (hardly) ever, or if they do they’ll quickly lose their jobs and likely be arrested and imprisoned *themselves* for it. > > Just because something **can** happen does not mean it *does* happen - and you’ve provided no proof that you had a “lock down or comment struck” because a “moderator doesn’t like your opinion”. I encourage you to provide **proof** of this if you have it - you can screenshot a deletion message if you want, or link to a thread that was locked. Dude-- why you playing ignorant? You were on that thread
Dr Dog (NA)
: if a mod is after you for personal reasons and you didnt break any rules they're not gonna be a mod for very long, and mod are different people with different opinions if you feel something is unjust just talk to a different mod its not too hard to do but if your actually in the wrong not much is going to be done because well your in the wrong. as for bad behavior its all outlined in the universal board rules or the league TOS which are what the mods follow for their rules, personal opinion isnt really something that comes into play there
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:00:16.542+0000) > > if a mod is after you for personal reasons and you didnt break any rules they're not gonna be a mod for very long, and mod are different people with different opinions if you feel something is unjust just talk to a different mod its not too hard to do but if your actually in the wrong not much is going to be done because well your in the wrong. > > as for bad behavior its all outlined in the universal board rules or the league TOS which are what the mods follow for their rules, personal opinion isnt really something that comes into play there I filed a support ticket, they're investigating it Yes it does come into play if you're on the line of what may or may not be wrong. If the moderator doesn't like your opinion you can get a lock down or comment struck--- especially if its a critique aimed at a moderator who was giving you attitude in the first place.
rujitra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-22T17:49:24.210+0000) > > I like how you slide in this thread pretending you didn't strike material that technically wasn't against board rules---- you and others gang up on "opinions" and you guys tend to sell yours like they come from a position of authority. Its like watching school bullies get to be hall monitors, then they pretend everything is all good when they're biased > > Your first sentence proves my point--- you guys shouldn't be saying shit about what is or isn't. I've seen you all abuse it one way or another. Moderation my ass lol you guys are just volunteers with opinions and power When have I ever “stricken” anything? I’m not a moderator, never have been, have no desire to be, and don’t see myself ever being a moderator on the boards here. I have never once seen a moderator act like they’re a Riot representative when giving their **personal opinion** on a person’s punishment. Why should moderators be limited in their ability to comment on threads any more than you are as a fellow player? If you think regular players shouldn’t comment on threads, start by not commenting on them yourself.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T17:51:13.664+0000) > > When have I ever “stricken” anything? I’m not a moderator, never have been, have no desire to be, and don’t see myself ever being a moderator on the boards here. > > I have never once seen a moderator act like they’re a Riot representative when giving their **personal opinion** on a person’s punishment. > > Why should moderators be limited in their ability to comment on threads any more than you are as a fellow player? If you think regular players shouldn’t comment on threads, start by not commenting on them yourself. wheren't you a specialist not too long ago? I could've sworn Forgive me for that, but I have seen your name before. You've also been on a lot of my threads with a much worse attitude than you're displaying now "i've never seen a moderator do bad" -- Yeah opinion and bias noted
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T17:43:58.170+0000) > > No smart ass > > As in if you come to ask a question, post your logs, anything, they are about as good a second opinion as you asking someone else to read support page aloud to you > > And if they disagree with you, even if you aren't breaking the rules, you'll get "moderated" > > "Post your chat logs so we unpaid employees can get our jollies to telling you how wrong you are" Not true. Mods will voice opinions (in an unofficial capacity) about bans and whether or not they're deserved. If it seems like the ban wasn't justified they'll try to summon a rioter on their end to take a look at it. Typically at that point Tamat comes and smites them because the logs are edited or something, but occasionally a ban gets overturned. You need to remember that mods are just players and forum lurkers who volunteer to handle this place in their spare time. Typically they do a pretty good job because they're familiar with the culture; they're a definite improvement over the paid mods we had previously. And yeah, they'll qoute the rules at you. It's their job to enforce them, and if you're breaking them they'll let you know what you've done wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=A Swarm of Koala,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T17:49:42.893+0000) > > Not true. Mods will voice opinions (in an unofficial capacity) about bans and whether or not they're deserved. If it seems like the ban wasn't justified they'll try to summon a rioter on their end to take a look at it. > > Typically at that point Tamat comes and smites them because the logs are edited or something, but occasionally a ban gets overturned. > > You need to remember that mods are just players and forum lurkers who volunteer to handle this place in their spare time. Typically they do a pretty good job because they're familiar with the culture; they're a definite improvement over the paid mods we had previously. And yeah, they'll qoute the rules at you. It's their job to enforce them, and if you're breaking them they'll let you know what you've done wrong. Omg you're just repeating the "yes man" stance. If they weren't "going beyond opinions" why would I be making this post? If they were "doing good", why would I be making this post? Have you read all of my posts? Have you seen all of the posts removed or locked before? You assume those were all perfectly moderated? If you've assumed this is made in response to chat logs, then you're way off and you shouldn't even be weighing in on this Saying they do good is not the same as refuting what I'm saying to you.
rujitra (NA)
: I mean, I’ve seen moderators here blatantly say a punishment was undeserved (until Riot came in and clarified the circumstances, that is). Maybe what you think is “just reading the support page” is just them agreeing with the punishment because it was valid? Plus, moderators aren’t here to evaluate cases, they’re here to **moderate the boards**.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=fIKiXar1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-22T17:45:28.047+0000) > > I mean, I’ve seen moderators here blatantly say a punishment was undeserved (until Riot came in and clarified the circumstances, that is). > > Maybe what you think is “just reading the support page” is just them agreeing with the punishment because it was valid? Plus, moderators aren’t here to evaluate cases, they’re here to **moderate the boards**. I like how you slide in this thread pretending you didn't strike material that technically wasn't against board rules---- you and others gang up on "opinions" and you guys tend to sell yours like they come from a position of authority. Its like watching school bullies get to be hall monitors, then they pretend everything is all good when they're biased Your first sentence proves my point--- you guys shouldn't be saying shit about what is or isn't. I've seen you all abuse it one way or another. Moderation my ass lol you guys are just volunteers with opinions and power
Rioter Comments
Ulanopo (NA)
: >Now Moderation would have everyone believe that I'm both encouraging you to break the rules and at the same time, that I'm wrong about how the rules are broken. The problem with your thread was that you met every disagreement with "go do what I did". That's just poor argumentation. You're also misrepresenting what people asked of you, which was most often simply to describe your methodology. Even were it permissible to do so, other people can't replicate your results without any details. What types and amounts of profanity did you use? What were the circumstances? How did you respond to people who called you out on your behavior. What you've basically done here is said, "Go out and be rude. See what happens." That's not science, it's an overture to anarchy.
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=kEbEY9EA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-21T22:51:08.484+0000) > > The problem with your thread was that you met every disagreement with "go do what I did". That's just poor argumentation. You're also misrepresenting what people asked of you, which was most often simply to describe your methodology. Even were it permissible to do so, other people can't replicate your results without any details. What types and amounts of profanity did you use? What were the circumstances? How did you respond to people who called you out on your behavior. > > What you've basically done here is said, "Go out and be rude. See what happens." That's not science, it's an overture to anarchy. That's not true, at all And your response is one where you're defending the system, not actually addressing any of the grievances, and then putting it all on me lol I gave some basic parameters to "test", all of which were supposed to be "safe" actions, none of which where you "ask for reports or ZT suggestions" You say its bad argumentation, but I can't be wrong about safe actions to take AND be encouraging people to break the rules at the same time. The fact that you all bandwagon to protect a system that doesn't even pay you and lies to you as well just shows you don't moderate objectively, you moderate from your opinions. I've seen it over and over my point stands if it was just a "bad" argument you all wouldn't have locked it. If you just disagreed, you could've left it. By banning you prove you're all a part of a big system that lies and that you're helping them lie lol its pathetic---- If someone isn't kissing Riots ass or is a little upset, you shut them up by force or drop coddle posts where you give them misleading information.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jlojNhME,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-19T20:44:45.654+0000)Are you sure? I'm sure, yes. There are some behaviors that WOULD be severe issues and probably disqualifying (hate speech, 14-day bans for abusive behavior, etc), but a punishment here or there in your history isn't disqualifying.
well then ill apply :D thanks Djinn
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jlojNhME,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T20:30:19.257+0000) > > > besides, you have to be pretty squeaky clean to get your position right? They just kiss Riot ass and spam Riots propaganda for free.
This thread is almost entirely volunteers
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jlojNhME,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T20:30:19.257+0000)besides, you have to be pretty squeaky clean to get your position right? Not really, actually. I *personally* happen to have a clean account history, but that's not a thing that's applicable across the entire team's account history.
Are you sure? Last I checked a clean account history was a requirement to apply (I considered it myself, to be a different voice amongst the volunteers that constantly back status quo)
: Well, encouraging other players to break the rules is in and of itself against the rules, so, advising people to test out rulebreaking to see whether or not it gets punished is...Y'know. Not the best of ideas? From the [ToU, Section 5](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/legal/termsofuse#code-conduct): > The following are examples of behavior that warrant disciplinary measures: > > xiv. Inducing or encouraging others to violate this Code of Conduct or the terms of this Agreement. Don't encourage people to break the rules, even for scientific purposes. _You've already done the "tests", if you want any of us to believe/accept your claims, provide the results. Do **not** tell people "test it yourself"._
Why not suggest others test it? I like how this discussion went from "I'm wrong" to "censor him". To which I say, you propose a lot of those parameters *don't break the rules, so if I'm wrong, how am I encouraging people to break the rules? I never said go say a zero tolerance phrase--- the others I'm wrong about right? Can't be both
Shiwah (EUW)
: ***
facts are checkable are they not? This is officially my last response--- I have no responsibility to you all. I proposed something--- take it or leave it lol
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jlojNhME,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T20:30:19.257+0000) > > I said capable not guaranteed--- So if you're being you cussing up a storm but aren't making anyone feel like you deserve a report then you won't get punished. > > besides, you have to be pretty squeaky clean to get your position right? You are doing the ad hominem now.
we wrote it down--- This post is to challenge others to do the same. I really dont gaf if you don't agree with me lol and I don't feel like typing alllllll that up. I've already typed enough
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jlojNhME,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-19T19:31:37.412+0000)You probably didn't piss anyone off enough to get reported tbh. Then that suggests a difference in my behavior and the way I undertake those actions that makes them acceptable, I would think. >You really don't play that much too In the last season, no. But prior to that (with the same IFS) I played a *lot* more, with the same behavior.
I said capable not guaranteed--- So if you're being you cussing up a storm but aren't making anyone feel like you deserve a report then you won't get punished. besides, you have to be pretty squeaky clean to get your position right?
Jo0o (NA)
: The burden of proof is on you. You're arguing against the common understanding of how things work, including the explicit statements made by Riot. If you want this to be taken seriously, show your work. We won't take your word for it. That's not an ad-hominem attack in any way.
No no no, I have no burden of anything. We didn't get paid. We just tested the standards for ourselves and gave you the shorthand of our results. If you don't like what I've presented on a public forum then you can feel free to disagree without testing it yourself. But i suggest you test it
: I'm gonna pick out a few of the points from your list here that either need correcting or further comments, and I'll get to your TL;DR afterwards. > Any form of swearing _even if not aimed at an individual_ is capable of getting you a chat restriction This is _not true_. You can swear all you want within reason, and as long as you're not leveling those swears to insult others, you won't get chat restricted for it. I've exclaimed "fuck" or "shit" after missing cross-map ults (_Trueshot Barrage_, _Enchanted Crystal Arrow_, _Super Mega Death Rocket!_, etc.), and have said "damn" or "ah, shit" after bad teamfights/scrums/etc. - and I have yet to receive a chat restriction. Swearing is _fine_. Swearing _at people_ is _not_. > Typing too many sentences (if it irritates another player) even if aimed at no one can get you a chat restriction I'm gonna call this conjecture. As far as I've seen, there's only very little correlation between chat log length and the likelihood of being chat restricted. Of course, it _is_ against the rules to spam chat and disrupt the game flow, I would still take your statement about "typing too many sentences" with a grain of salt. I have yet to see chat log length alone lead to a punishment, so unless you're spamming "?" or other stuff like that, I would posit that it's the content of your logs that matter more than the length of them. > Anything near the topic of racism including "racist" and mention of specific colors is likely to strike you immediately with full chat restriction or instant permanent ban. This includes names. "some black guy" I'm skeptical, but at the same time, there's no real reason to be discussing race/skin color in a match of League, so I'd say the point is moot. > Typing too many sentences + swearing even w/o directing it at anyone is more likely to get you punished. This is just points 1 & 2 put together. > Lastly, we questioned support in multiple tickets ------- the resounding "standard" that seems to be held is this quote from support when asked about banter > "I wouldn't type anything outside of telling your teammates gj or calling an objective because anything you say may be misconstrued :/" > So if someone reports you for chat and you were using chat there is a percentage chance you will get punished. IE save your typing for just the game. To start off, let's get this out of the way, since it's probably one of the biggest misconceptions I've seen on the PB boards: > **Banter** > _noun_ > the playful and friendly exchange of teasing remarks. > > _verb_ > talk or exchange remarks in a good-humored teasing way. **_Banter is NOT synonymous with toxicity._** Banter is saying things like "nice flash" or "not even close" or jabbing about how you've become a raid boss after being 3+man ganked. If you're getting punished for "banter", _then it's 100% not banter._ So, with that out of the way, let's look at that quote from Riot Support: > I wouldn't type anything outside of telling your teammates gj or calling an objective because anything you say may be misconstrued :/ This is, on its own merits, and in response to the question of "banter" (which, as I've mentioned, is often misconstrued for toxicity), _solid advice_. The two most bare-bones uses for chat are complimenting/having friendly chatter with your teammates, and strategizing/working through the gamestates. There is, naturally, a realm of other things you can use the chat for, but those two are the safest uses that the chat has. Judging from that, I'm fairly certain that the Support Agent gave that response so as to avoid dealing with the "banter" confusion. Since a fair few people seem to not be aware that banter is _light-hearted_ and _well-meaning_, it's altogether safer to just encourage people to use the most basic, safest forms of chat so as to avoid punishment. > So if someone reports you for chat and you were using chat there is a percentage chance you will get punished. Using an RNG-based punishment system seems a little...Bad, don't you think? Why would Riot implement a system that punishes people based on RNG, when that could wholly lead to the possibility of someone with a 99% chance to get punished (hardcore flamer) getting to go off scott-free, and have someone with a 1% chance (early gg) getting punished immediately for an inanely modest offense? There is no reason to assume that there's a percentage chance of getting punished for anything. Such a system would be flawed beyond compare, so it's safer altogether to assume that there is a rigid and logical system behind punishments that does not deal in RNG. > TL:DR --- Riot should tell people openly "only use your chat for the game or compliments--- straying outside those guidelines risks punishment" There's a few pretty big issues with this proposal, first and foremost, people would assume from it that Riot intends to police chat and keep people from saying anything outside of what they specifically want to be said. And that's just not true. Second, even if they did make a public statement - what good would it do? I mean, they have [the rules up for everyone to read](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/legal/termsofuse#code-conduct), and people either ignore it or don't understand, or deliberately misconstrue and twist the words to suit their view of things... So, if Riot warned people to only use chat for complimenting teammates and strategizing around the gamestate, how many people do you wager would listen? And, of course, there's the fact that "straying outside those two domains risks punishment" is generally not true. You can stray pretty far away from complimenting teammates and strategy without getting punished. Discussing skin lines, rune choices (although that's kinda counted as strategizing), Champions, lore, etc. So telling players "only compliment or do strategy - otherwise you may get punished" would only serve to foster ill-founded paranoia.
Dude You may disagree You may re quote rules all day long You can make excuses for them But I did the test---- if you disagree go do the test instead of trying to disprove my results with your opinions All I gave you is facts, maybe you're too trusting and don't understand what you're standing up for. Maybe because you're a volunteer?
: And someone who tends to type a lot and frequently uses curses to intensify emotion, I'd be curious to see exactly what you were writing, because I've never experienced any form of punishment despite a fairly consistent pattern.
You probably didn't piss anyone off enough to get reported tbh. You really don't play that much too. Last, we tested in and out of duos because you can't ask for reports but you can't guarantee people will report you for cursing but not flaming. Resoundingly, curse + frequency + report got a form of chat restriction. You're welcome to test it yourself with multiple accounts and multiple people--- you'll need duos or groups to make sure a report happens. So CAN you banter and curse? Yes, if you don't get reported.
Xidphel (NA)
: Gonna have to check the log itself.
Rioter Comments
Xidphel (NA)
: >for typing "racist". Yeah. It's rarely if ever that simple. You typed more than just "racist".
You're right, I used it in three sentences the rest of the log was clean: no asking for reports, no insults back. "That's kinda racist" "No seriously dude X is being really fucking racist" "Yeah it doesn't matter if its against white people, its still racist" What you guys think was justified as perma? The word "fucking"? I have several accounts i made for testing the parameters myself since this happened (with help from a few other individuals) - not throwing games just testing chat rules We concluded The zero tolerance phrases are enforced as advertised - They're even good at catching misspelling Thats about where the good points end imo Any form of swearing even if not aimed at an individual is capable of getting you a chat restriction Typing too many sentences (if it irritates another player) even if aimed at no one can get you a chat restriction Anything _near_ the topic of racism including "racist" and mention of specific colors is likely to strike you immediately with full chat restriction or instant permanent ban. This includes names. "some black guy" Typing too many sentences + swearing even w/o directing it at anyone is more likely to get you punished. Lastly, we questioned support in multiple tickets ------- the resounding "standard" that seems to be held is this quote from support when asked about banter "I wouldn't type anything outside of telling your teammates gj or calling an objective because anything you say may be misconstrued :/" So if someone reports you for chat and you were using chat there is a percentage chance you will get punished. IE save your typing for just the game. You can go test it yourself. At the end of the day I don't see their standard as necessarily bad, but even Riot pushes a misconception that they're only harsh on certain things. That's only true if they openly say "use your chat for just the game, or you might get punished".
: Ranked Issues
I took this same issue to support, and they literally bounced me employee to employee. They contradicted each other several times and mainly just re pasted the same replies. At one point, support told me a bronze 4 being in my G2 game was ok and "nothing was off". The enemy team didn't have a bronze player. Then same person says "well maybe it was a display glitch". But the player said they were bronze 4. Their account is easily checked as bronze 4. So this person who is the third person on the ticket didnt even check the game, or the data, or anything. They didn't give a shit it was all deflection back to me about how its on me to "raise my own mmr". Holy shit, my ticket wasn't about my mmr, it was about "aren't you not supposed to put bronze 4 with gold and no bronze on other team? isn't that a glitch?".
PH45 (EUNE)
: > You don't deserve ban off one game. You don't get banned for one game, unless you use homophobic slurs/ other zero-tolerance words or do a really obvious hard-int, and even then it results in a 2-week ban first.
Not true received a perma on another account for typing "racist". Not a racist word, just "racist"
Azenthex (NA)
: Banned But Not BROKEN. My support of Riot's LoL is still STRONG
This company is just shy of scamming standards in our regions. You don't deserve ban off one game. They're bleeding players from the regions that have these rules. Its a bad, inefficient non transparent system
: pretty sure gnar beast everything there except darius maybe becomes useless when he has to melee form versus firora and urgot.
He really doesn't. He's super low tier for top picks right now.
Antenora (EUW)
: 1.1 million mastery Vayne Main here. I have my games where I pop off like a monster and some games I feed my ass off. The thing that's ruining the game for me right now is getting 1 shot by nearly everything, especially AFTERSHOCK Mages/Tanks like Lissandra and Galio, Difference is Shen's in a bad spot as a champion... Sadly Shen suffered "Pro Play Syndrome".
1.3 million mastery Yasuo main here. Same as Vayne. Can monster or lunchlady, but at lvl 13 nami has more base health than I do. Everything nukes. Riven is massively over-tuned in comparison. Vayne buffs were needed, but only do so much in a game of Team Deathmatch 500k Kench and Gnar--- they're hardly playable. Almost every match up out damages them, has more impressive spikes, or gets more out of their gold usage. They _can_ be good, but its in a Meta where you could technically stomp lane 4 0 with a "winning" champ and still lose because your bot lost hard. I used to take Tahm Jg, was my favorite thing to play in this game even over yas. I never saw him as support from launch. Even now I want to play this champ more. I want to play gnar more, but if I want to a chance to beat {{champion:266}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:6}} I should probably pick other things. imo, this started with Brand/Zyra/Vel mains tired of being 1 shot by Katarina/Zed/Yas mid and autofill. When the community discovered squishy burst mages could have more success out damaging the adcs in bot lane they quit building utility items. It would be tiresome to fill, build support, and lose to dmg. In fact i'm pretty sure that Pyke was just Riot pandering to the style of "dmg bot lane" but with AD stats. (cool champ, probably not the best time to release)
rujitra (NA)
: Players who intentionally feed at any point of the game are given bans from the game - 14 days on first offense and then permanent on subsequent offense
if they're caught usually, they aren't
Jojobees (NA)
: Just because you are trying doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game.
Well the purpose is to try, and enjoy the game soooo your point? I'm saying separating the difference in "how hard you want to try" would be very healthy.
: Toxicity in this game.
file support tickets--- dead serious
ZeroBlink (EUW)
: I'm not talking about normals , were talking about ranked ladder here, enjoy your normals and bot games bro.
No, I disagree even with this. If you want to dick around, go to blinds, customs or ARAM Do not go into a draft game "just cuz". Draft is the only place you can somewhat emulate rank practice. If we as a community don't hold up a certain standard of "pls try hard here and here" this game will just keep bleeding out players
: Griefing is the Powder Keg Exploding, but Flaming is the Spark that ignites it.
This is only true because we have a petty community with no sportsmanship values, or at the very least, a passion to win. We use to, and no the chat wasn't cleaner. It was as open as a youtube comment section. However, if you got over your feelings and used your mute you could usually at least count on teammates to still want to win. Most of the fights were over role selections and picks, because we couldn't lock anything in. People would fight over it, but we wanted to win. Now I'm not saying that cleaning up chat was bad, but in hindsight I wish IFS never happened. I'd rather have overly passionate flamers I can mute, than petty passive aggressive assholes, silent trolls, and a clusterfuck of people who don't want to put energy into a win if it isn't handed to them. The decreasing playerbase shows the passion is leaving it, and its our community thats driving it out. It drags away from all the other critiques I'd rather be at the front of discussion, like matchmaking, updating MMR systems, or addressing power creep. But Even if this game becomes mechanically better, that won't stop us from being matched with people that you'd "better not set off, cuz they are powderkegs" no offense to OP trying to keep up this super positive vibe-- I just think we need to re-evaluate what we expect the players to mitigate about multiplayer friction and what we really need companies to intervene for. I don't think what people say to you is one of them. just imo
rujitra (NA)
: Once again, that is a zero tolerance word. It is a completely different discussion than the one we are having now. Please stop commenting on my posts misleading others by changing the subject.
You're not addressing the whole post and you know it lol The biggest issues is you, as a volunteer, cannot guarantee anything and have no data. You should not say things as if you could. You also are misleading people to think that if they avoid ZT words that their language won't be subject to ZT bans, but I just gave you an example that the word "racist" was used in 1 game and I got a permanent ban for that 1 game on that account. Is Racist a ZT word? No. There are more than just ZT words that can get you an instant punishment, its not just "attitude". Therefore you shouldn't be discouraging and misleading people away from critiquing the system. Its an algorithm. Word use + frequency. Thats definitely flawed and hasn't cleaned up the rift. So "please" stop misleading people from legitimate critiques. This system needs heavy changes because the player base is decreasing rapidly in NA and EU. The overwhelming opinion isn't just "Dmg too high" its "Teammates are assholes"
: First of all, I didn't need the clarification as to why I got in trouble. %%%%% was an obvious one. Then I give example of just "racist" I used it in 3 sentences. No previous history of anything. punished. Is Racist a ZT word? No, but its apart of an algorithm, which means it has to have a word/phrase bank to work off of, one thats not clear and dry My main issue is with the "guarantee" clause as if Riot themselves are implying everything passed ZT is fine and working as should be. If OP just took this "Volunteers" response at face value all of this legitimate critique potential is snuffed for no reason. The system isn't good. Its not cut and dry. Its not based on your attitude. Its an algorithm that matches reported phrases/words to frequency of chat use and if you trip the system it issues a punishment. You shouldn't suggest that you can freely talk outside ZT phrases because you can't.
Also why would you, who had nothing to do with the game in question know literally anything about it?. That's asinine.
: Using hate speech or ANY zt-phrase, even if it's just to a friend, will get you punished. Unless you're in a 5-man premade that is fine with that, you're playing with at least 3 other people on your team that are randoms, or at least 8 counting the enemy team and your team. And seeing how that word you used is in %, it's a ZT phrase, meaning you will be punished if someone reports you. Also, you didn't get punished because you used the word racist, you got punished for having a constantly toxic chat.
First of all, I didn't need the clarification as to why I got in trouble. %%%%% was an obvious one. Then I give example of just "racist" I used it in 3 sentences. No previous history of anything. punished. Is Racist a ZT word? No, but its apart of an algorithm, which means it has to have a word/phrase bank to work off of, one thats not clear and dry My main issue is with the "guarantee" clause as if Riot themselves are implying everything passed ZT is fine and working as should be. If OP just took this "Volunteers" response at face value all of this legitimate critique potential is snuffed for no reason. The system isn't good. Its not cut and dry. Its not based on your attitude. Its an algorithm that matches reported phrases/words to frequency of chat use and if you trip the system it issues a punishment. You shouldn't suggest that you can freely talk outside ZT phrases because you can't.
rujitra (NA)
: That is a Zero Tolerance word and doesn't fall under my post which I explicitly say **most** punishments. Regular punishments are not keyword based.
No you didn't draw a very good line at all with the word most and your comment is very suggesting that I could cuss and use foul language all day as long as I'm not aiming it at people. That's not true. Even joking with my friends "%%%%% don't do that!" HAS gotten one of my accounts perma'd. On another account, all I did was say the word "racist" as in "wow that was really racist" and THAT account got a punishment. I've had high honor lvl snatched away even when I didn't have real evidence of being a bad player or negative to the game on my main, where I use to cuss pretty freely. Now you just have to watch what you say period because its more likely to get you in trouble than how you act. But thats a tangent- you can't guarantee anything from your position, so you shouldn't use that word, and if you can guarantee it I wanna see the evidence lol because your account says only lvl 30. Unless you got some main tucked away with crazy experience or are a Rioter with access to how the IFS is coded you shouldn't suggest such concrete things like "its all on your attitude". Its about A.) Did you type something? B.) Did someone take offense to it? C.) Can IFS justify it based on word bank and frequency of chat use bam you may or may not have slipped through the system
rujitra (NA)
: I am not sure how many times people have to say this: **There are no “trigger words” for *most* punishments**. Period. You do not get punished because you “said a ‘bad’ word”. You get punished for your attitude and demeanor in chat **as a whole**. A *normal* punishment, i.e. one that is not for something “zero tolerance” (which gets a 14 day ban off the bat) is **never** based on solely one line within chat. It is based on your attitude and demeanor throughout the game. While you may have only *directly* attacked someone once, continual negativity including giving up, being defeatist, making fun of your teammates deaths or score, and other things like that. You are correct that things like “game state” and past “positive contributions” do not excuse negative behavior. It does not matter if you are winning, losing, getting destroyed, or if you think is “intentionally feeding” or bringing the team down. It does not matter if you think you’re playing better than everyone else and you think you have the “right answer” and the team “just needs to listen”. You are not the boss of others, and you do not get to be defeatist or negative just because you feel like it. You claim that you are one of these “positive players” - but you’re not. You were punished as a hint that, hey, your behavior is falling below the standard accepted by the League system. You were not punished by any “griefer” or “troll” - you were punished because of **your** behavior (and your lack of self control to not use chat inappropriately). I understand it’s frustrating to hear that you are being problematic in League - but blaming it on what is, in reality, a **very** small number of “griefers” or “trolls” does not make it okay - even if it **were** true. The problem is that many of the things that “trigger” toxicity from players like you is that **those things aren’t punishable**. There’s a lot of people who get mad when they have someone running it down or blatantly trolling - heck, me included. Never received a punishment, though, because *if* I get mad and go off in chat it’s only in that *one* game where the troll is - and they’re so rare that if you went off in every game with a legitimate troll in it, it’s likely you’d never meet the limit for punishment (which is much more than one game in almost all cases, even if only one game is shown in your chat card). However, you likely don’t just “go off” in games with *actual* trolls/griefers. You go off on teammates who don’t listen to you, because they’re “trolling” unless they do. You go off on teammates because they lost lane and keep trying to fight - even though that’s their prerogative and they don’t have to listen to you. There’s so many more options, but I **guarantee** you that you don’t just get “triggered” by trolls/griefers.
Aren't you as a specialist not supposed to talk about things you really don't have the data for? And how would you really know to speak as a volunteer from experience if you, yourself, had to have a squeaky clean account to get your position? You can't guarantee anything and you're being misleading AF
: There are very much "trigger words" - go type %%%%%% in your next game one time and ask for a report
Its ridiculous that you're implying that a non human entity that uses a language/phrase bank + frequency isn't looking for "confirmations"
rujitra (NA)
: I am not sure how many times people have to say this: **There are no “trigger words” for *most* punishments**. Period. You do not get punished because you “said a ‘bad’ word”. You get punished for your attitude and demeanor in chat **as a whole**. A *normal* punishment, i.e. one that is not for something “zero tolerance” (which gets a 14 day ban off the bat) is **never** based on solely one line within chat. It is based on your attitude and demeanor throughout the game. While you may have only *directly* attacked someone once, continual negativity including giving up, being defeatist, making fun of your teammates deaths or score, and other things like that. You are correct that things like “game state” and past “positive contributions” do not excuse negative behavior. It does not matter if you are winning, losing, getting destroyed, or if you think is “intentionally feeding” or bringing the team down. It does not matter if you think you’re playing better than everyone else and you think you have the “right answer” and the team “just needs to listen”. You are not the boss of others, and you do not get to be defeatist or negative just because you feel like it. You claim that you are one of these “positive players” - but you’re not. You were punished as a hint that, hey, your behavior is falling below the standard accepted by the League system. You were not punished by any “griefer” or “troll” - you were punished because of **your** behavior (and your lack of self control to not use chat inappropriately). I understand it’s frustrating to hear that you are being problematic in League - but blaming it on what is, in reality, a **very** small number of “griefers” or “trolls” does not make it okay - even if it **were** true. The problem is that many of the things that “trigger” toxicity from players like you is that **those things aren’t punishable**. There’s a lot of people who get mad when they have someone running it down or blatantly trolling - heck, me included. Never received a punishment, though, because *if* I get mad and go off in chat it’s only in that *one* game where the troll is - and they’re so rare that if you went off in every game with a legitimate troll in it, it’s likely you’d never meet the limit for punishment (which is much more than one game in almost all cases, even if only one game is shown in your chat card). However, you likely don’t just “go off” in games with *actual* trolls/griefers. You go off on teammates who don’t listen to you, because they’re “trolling” unless they do. You go off on teammates because they lost lane and keep trying to fight - even though that’s their prerogative and they don’t have to listen to you. There’s so many more options, but I **guarantee** you that you don’t just get “triggered” by trolls/griefers.
There are very much "trigger words" - go type %%%%%% in your next game one time and ask for a report
: A Mind-Blowing Idea for all the Riot Devs
You shouldn't have lost all that content over words to begin with
: > [{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=GbeI8c7p,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-01-08T01:26:00.362+0000) > > except that doesn't really work to catch passive aggressive players. Trolls who pull blatant moves are the minority. The majority of behavior is "soft inting"- you build normal. You could die anywhere. You're technically farming but you aren't playing. If you aren't doing this to make people rage you're doing it in response to someone trash talking you. "they don't deserve the win but I don't want a ban and can't tell them fuck off" etc > > I don't think you can fix this attitude thats been introduced without both changing punishment parameters and campaigning specifically against said behavior. "Soft inting?" WTF??? That sounds like an excuse to just report mechanically bad people. What's bad about farming and/or split pushing? The whole point of farming elsewhere is "I'm scared of the enemy team. I want to get my items and stay as far away from the majority of them as possible." If I'm down a kill or two as ADC, I don't want to be ARAM-ing mid lane at an item disadvantage.
Its not crazy and I'm not talking about people _actually playing the game from behind_. Its not like I'm looking at every loss or every player having an off performance as troll. That's not productive for me or anyone else. You may think its an excuse to punish mechanically bad people but thats exactly why its the prevalent "go to" way to throw games. How in the actual fuck are you going to tell the difference just by a scoreboard? You're not, but just because its hard to catch doesn't mean it isn't happening and shouldn't be discouraged. It's simple---- If I don't want you to win I could just stop actively trying to win and that's usually enough to secure the loss and maybe get somebody to rage. Usually if you ask these players as they farm while your base falls anything they just won't answer. That kinda shit is so out of hand in rank rn.
: How effective is the reporting system?
Punctual (NA)
: Well, the thing is, it's impossible to actually determine if you inted that 1 kill or not lmao. That's why most inters/trolls don't ever get banned because Riot can't determine if that's a bad game or not. The easiest way to see if someone inted is their death score because usually they have unusual build patterns and their deaths are near the same spots.
except that doesn't really work to catch passive aggressive players. Trolls who pull blatant moves are the minority. The majority of behavior is "soft inting"- you build normal. You could die anywhere. You're technically farming but you aren't playing. If you aren't doing this to make people rage you're doing it in response to someone trash talking you. "they don't deserve the win but I don't want a ban and can't tell them fuck off" etc I don't think you can fix this attitude thats been introduced without both changing punishment parameters and campaigning specifically against said behavior.
: One of the Easiest Ways to Turn Games Around
Gurane (NA)
: Riot Ban System At Its Finest
Sometimes the best way to show a system is broken is to break it and show everyone. Kudos to this guy
Rioter Comments
rujitra (NA)
: Ok. I'm going to be blunt here. **If this were as big a problem as you claim, Riot would've changed their mind on many things**. Obviously Riot's private data shows that most players **don't** come back after a permanent ban. If they saw a lot coming back, they'd do something about it. Sure, some do. Some come back over and over again. But most players don't.
Evidence shows that there has been an overall drop in membership for NA/EU. I've yet to see Riot release any real announcement/data showing "how well things have improved" in player reform, etc. In fact, their silence can be just as much an indicator of struggle within the company. Lastly, you shouldn't say things like "Obviously Riot's private data shows _____" if you don't know it for sure/aren't reading it yourself. Its misleading, and you're just a volunteer.
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Sorin Alucard

Level 284 (NA)
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