: I'll be honest the game mode seems rather dumb compared to their past ideas that died because they refused to support them properly, TT, old magma chamber concept, crystal scar ect ect. it looks like they designed an entire mode solely to support loot boxes and i guess i don't get why anyone would want to support baby EA, whats next unskippable ads between league of legends matches?
This mode exists because DOTA Autochess is enormously popular. I can guarantee you the game existed as a plan BEFORE they decided how to monetize it.
cale1991 (EUW)
: i mean, what's the point of being vague? when it comes online within 30 seconds it's gonna be on reddit and in another 30 seconds after being posted on reddit the entire internet will know. you basically delayed the info for a total of 60 seconds.
Yes, but people can't plan around it that way. If they gave a specific time, groups will plan to hop on together and you get slammed with stacks of friends all trying to queue at once. With this type of launch, any slow of traffic is huge.
: Yeah I think this is reasonable. I don't work on the Poro King mode but I'll bring it up with those guys. Good call.
Not sure how much I trust Warwick with game balance :thinking:
: "Enter the Mind of the Meddler" "Meddler: Mindfreak"
"Meddler: Mind-Phreak" FTFY
zaire90 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fuild051,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T16:40:49.013+0000) > > I actually think the jungle role fits nidalee's character very well. > > Even before riot changed her to make her the best jungler in the game for some time, I was trying to make it work. It didn't go very well, but I tried. it does make more sense and fit her its just that i bought her for her mid lane and i cant rlly jg
: > [{quoted}](name= Maddened King ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fuild051,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-02-19T14:36:31.447+0000) > > NO, STOP THAT! I WANT MALZ MID, NOT MALZ SUPPORT! {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:90}} NOT {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:16}} and i want {{champion:76}} top mid and support not jungle. but since when does riot care about screwing over the people who main the champ...
I actually think the jungle role fits nidalee's character very well. Even before riot changed her to make her the best jungler in the game for some time, I was trying to make it work. It didn't go very well, but I tried.
PB4UAME (NA)
: A-clicking is still you fucking up, you could just move click and never have to worry about attacking. an A-click is still issuing an attack command, and is entirely your decision and entirely your fault.
Saying this is still you being an asshole. you could just read this post and move on. A rude comment is still you being a jerkoff, and is entirely your choice and entirely dickish of you.
TS Media (NA)
: Really not how it works. ;i The higher you go, the more you expect to count on your team. When you can't even count on your teammates for simple things, especially being in diamond, it only further frustrates you. If you're in Bronze, you know your team is garbo and won't know how to follow up on anything so you wouldn't rely on them at all. In silver, you feel like your team should have a bit more of an inkling on follow ups, but wouldn't rely on them for complicated play. In Gold, you feel like your team should know a bit more now and that you can entrust certain task to them: Like lane ganking/counter ganking or getting a counter objective. In plat, you can expect your team to know when to push/not push/ freeze lanes and get a bit more complex in the way you do things. In Diamond, you have a lot of hope that your team can follow up on plays, read pings and know more of what you can and can't do. The higher you go, the more teamwork you need. The less you can rely on your team, the more frustrating it is -- especially when they enemy team is in complete harmony.
Realistically graves should have at least helped ward up that part of the jungle, if not only to see when nidalee invades him on the weak side of the map
: you cant have the game automatically attack the blast cone only you can right click it
After they fixed it this was the case. Once upon a time you could Aclick them it was hell.
: wall hops on skilled players{{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
Hopping out of baron pit praying you don't Aclick the blast cone
: well like I stated most build him pure tank... and I stated I don't... I have mained and played him for the last 3 years. have hundreds of games on him... I have a lot of games where I can out damage my entire team... and be a tank. as maokai due to my build path. and I don't really give up a lot on the tank stats. and you say ROA not worth on him but it actually it is... the passives from catalyst give him mana, and hp back. and that helps sustain him... and the stacks of ROA increases his mana pool, his hp and provides him with enough ap to be a threat to kill something . and the passive of catalyst where it heals is increased by spirit visage ... which also in turns increases his passive for healing... frozen heart is ok ... if you are facing a lot of as/auto attack based champs... but ice born provides aoe slow... helps with his wave clear, gives him cdr, armor , mana and the sheen procs on all of his abilities... and he has high base ad so his autos after a sheen proc actually hurt. liandry's is so good on him cuz it also procs on his q w e but mainly the synergy with his W and with ROA you can do 22-25% magic damage based on targets maximum hp . which makes maokai able to win a lot of trades. plus the magic pen you get from it helps with all of his abilities and sunfire cape .
I don't know why you would build anything other than sunfire to help with waveclear. Maokai can clear a wave with E+Q+ a few sunfire ticks in almost no time at all.
: so you would agree that maokai is a tank? he does a good amount of damage with his kit and has cc , sustain and typically builds only tank ( except for me I play him with ROA, ICEBORN , SUNFIRE , SPIRIT VISAGE, and 5th item depending ) but maokai usually builds pure hp and tank stats and can still do damage by his base damage alone... seems mundo kinda does the same thing even though they are different designs.
Maokai functions to engage, then be a wall to protect his allies. Sure he has some damage built in to his kit, but only enough to be relevant. Mundo does NOT function as primary engage. He is goddamn terrible at it. Mundo also doesn't switch into a protective role either. At no point in a fight to Mundo and Maokai play the same role / do the same job. The ONLY thing they have in common is durability.
: hmm ok but considering he don't build damage at all, has cc with his Q that provides a slow... and a sustain tank who heals like crazy and aoe damage I mean I get how nasus isn't and so on... to me mundo is an HP tank similar to sion they that get tanky by HP but that's my thought on it... I get it he is more of a "fighter" but he don't build damage he just stacks hp and tank stats
Doesn't matter what he builds. What matters is his primary function in teamfights. News Flash: Mundo's job is to kill shit. His job is not to be primary engage (so he isn't a Vanguard) His job is not to protect his allies (so he isn't a Warden) His job is to kill shit and never fuckin die (so he is a Juggernaut)
: The problem I see is that sometimes you dont want to build Lethality, and scaling abilities with Lethality would probably result in lower AD ratios. Sometimes assassins want to go tankier - if they arent having problems getting kills with a snowball, or they are getting blown up before getting on a squishy target. Like GBM's Zed in a very un-Zed meta: he made it work by getting a huge lead, but also kept the lead by going Titanic/Steraks/Maw/Deadmans to stay alive in fights once he inevitably wouldnt be able to kill a single target due to Lulu and QSS (back when it removed the Deathmark).
No. Not lower AD Ratios. The assassin items should just have less AD so that when purchased on an assassin who scales with lethality, they give their full potential damage increase. The GBM Zed example is just an example of those items being TOO strong at the time. I watched that game, I know what went down. Assassins should NEVER have a viable fallback option of MULTIPLE TANK ITEMS. MAYBE Steraks is OK. MAYBE Maw is ok. The issue is that every ounce of tankiness that an assassins buys will mitigate their balanceable weakness of being extremely squishy, relying on their maneuverability and / or stealth to survive. Any time an assassin is able to build tank to do their job, there is a serious balance issue. that tanky Zed build came at a time where defensive offense items were just too strong. Sterak + Maw were constantly being purchased together. Tank Fiora was at its prime at this time. The game was pretty fucked up.
: Well I don't think that's a good idea as only 3 (4 if you count the dirk that builds into all 3 of them) items have lethality to begin with. That would turn every assassin's build into binary "build these 3 every game" nonsense
At least range won't be able to abuse it, though, if executed properly. It is a million miles closer to fixed that way.
Dasdi96 (NA)
: The "one shot or be one shotted" meta is extremely degrading gameplay.
Pointless clutter shitpost. Nerfs to damage creep been on PBE for some time now. Riot planning to fix.
Trick2G69 (EUNE)
: its never gonna happen,unless all adcs are chaged to scale with critical chance absurdly theres no way. For so many ADCs crit builds are borderline useless they barely autoattack in teamfights and all of their damage comes from abilities. {{champion:236}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:119}}
Or assassins had scalings on their spells tied to lethality. Then the items could be adjusted around that.
: you could find a way to adjust the scaling on assassins vs ranged casters so that the former just needs pen to do their job but the latter needs a lot more AD somethin like that maybe
What if Assassins had abilities that scaled DIRECTLY with Lethality? Then the Assassin items could be adjusted so they offer the same power to Lethality-Scaling champs while being less powerful for champs that only scale on AD.
: In practice, ward jumping has always been a method of turning a unit-targeted dash into a free-targeted dash. If Lee or Jax somehow really need unrestricted mobility, then their dashes should just be made free-targeted on their own, and if they don't, they shouldn't, but in either case that shouldn't have to rely on popping down a vision item and exploiting the game's old unit targeting system, which is clunky and especially opaque to newer players.
The only issue with this is that Jax and Lee have the benefit of being able to not miss. You click, you land there. Being free targeted is different from being able to ward hop, since you CAN run out of wards if you are actually providing vision. They are just slightly more restricted than they otherwise would be, is what i am getting at.
waelbecha (EUW)
: Your agency is landing your skill shots with actual skill.
: > [{quoted}](name=2bad2badger,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=XuAJPHo1,comment-id=00350000,timestamp=2017-02-11T05:44:55.263+0000) > > How is this a bad thing? It's a bad thing because Jhin having to rely on teammates just so he can land his ult is counterintuitive to him having such an ult in the first place. What if there are no teammates at the scene to help lock down on targets? What if the target(s) is/are too far away for your teammates to reach and Jhin's ult is the only thing that can help get to/kill them? The slow and the reveal are the only two things that 1 - let him keep hitting the same target without teammate intervention and 2 - let his teammates catch up so they can lock down. Removing/nerfing either one makes it impossible to land anything otherwise because 1 - the target will have enough movement speed to get out of the ult's range and 2 - If Jhin can't see them he can't hit them unless he lands that "lucky shot," which wouldn't be so lucky if he doesn't kill anyone considering he only has 4 bullets.
Why should Jhin be able to buy ghostblade and just 4 hit kill you with ult alone before he even gets back to lane? The slow needs to go down. It should be up to Jhins skill to hit it.
Adalvar (EUW)
: But that is what they reffer as "invisible power". Abilities with powere that isn't properly displayed. Old Alistar E has a under rated heal component since it not only provided moderate sustain, but is also helped with pushing waves and screwing last hits for the enemy ADC. Old Trist E has a Grevious Wounds component, despite the fact that the spell was almost useless on ADC Trist it was still taken first because it countered Heal and had a vary high base damage. Fizz W, also had a GW and a missing % damage component, which didn't add too much to Assassin Fizz, but made Trinity Force top lane Fizz a monster for several patches. > There isn't a way to change it to have meaningful power without removing power directly elsewhere in his kit. That's pretty much the entire point. Make the "useless" abilities usefull and adjust the rest of kit accordingly. In that way you have a champion with 4 actual abilites, not a a champion with 3 abilities and a mana sink/rank points sink.
Ezreal's W is valuable for his passive, but it is also the reason that AD and AP Ez can both be playable.
Spârky (NA)
: Really your messing with jhin ive always thought of jhin as a very reasonably balanced champ hes always below the top 2 "meta" adc's for example like right now hes slightly below varus who is the clear number 1 adc but then there is him and ashe who bot offer utility. If you were to nerf the slow please make it a decaying slow but dont let it decay to fast because then his consecutive shots will be much harder to hit therefore not rewarding him for hitting the first shot.
He can buy ghostblade and kill you from damn near full with just his ult. Hitting all 4 NEEDS to be less reliable.
Risen29 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZNsmuY8E,comment-id=000800010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T23:38:53.836+0000) > I am not saying 110% armor pen vs a 500 armor target. > I an saying 110% of the PURCHASED armor on a 400 armor target, using 300 bonus armor. Which is a misleading and pointless way to phrase it. You're trying to make the situation sound worse than it is. >On paper lethality is bad vs tanks. > >In practice, it is being stacked with % shred and pen, and due to the INCREASE in the pool of available flat pen, the sheer amount you can stack >becomes overwhelming when combined with % pen and reduction (which is what IS happening) No, in reality, it is bad vs tanks. Flat armor pen has always been bad vs tanks and still is. I already gave you the math to prove it. The only difference between having max lethality + dominiks and just dominiks is that the 500 armor tank goes down to 215 armor (68.3% damage reduction), as opposed to just dominiks being 275 armor (74% damage reduction) . For a burst champion, there's no practical difference at that point, because you won't burn through either of those damage reduction amounts. 6% extra damage means nothing against a target with so much health when you are a burst champion. An extra 6% damage would only be meaningful if you were attack speed based, able to take advantage of it - which won't be possible because you've used all your item slots already for flat pen. It is terribly gold inefficient to use flat armor pen against an armor stacking tank. The more armor they have, the more weak and inefficient your flat pen becomes. >i am not saying that Tanks are getting oneshot, but due to the overwhelming availability of penetration, Lethality abusers are not being punished >accordingly. We have the same availability of armor penetration as we did before lethality. We had three flat armor pen items before, dominiks, and black cleaver. Nothing has changed.
It all comes down to how you choose to read it. What I am saying is, all the armor you opted into is GONE from this build, that should not be the case. Used to be 20 / 10 / 10 across the pen items Now it is 20 / 15 / 15 AND at the expense of attack speed on ghostblade (in exchange for FAR more AD and a better build path) and the other items have much better effects on them to boot. that with the Powerful combination of Cleaver and % bonus pen...
: {{item:3147}} 15 {{item:3814}} 15 {{item:3142}} 20 {{item:3134}} 10 Masteries: 8.5 max runes: 6.72(quint)+10.17(mark): 16.89 Total: 85.39 \--------------------------------------------- {{item:3110}} 90 armor {{item:3143}} {{item:3047}}: 90 armor Frozen heart also costs less than any of the other items except Dirk and Tabi. Lethality it pretty inefficient against tanks.
You miss the point. On paper lethality is bad vs tanks. In practice, it is being stacked with % shred and pen, and due to the INCREASE in the pool of available flat pen, the sheer amount you can stack becomes overwhelming when combined with % pen and reduction (which is what IS happening) The stat is TOO efficient vs multiple tank comps. i am not saying that Tanks are getting oneshot, but due to the overwhelming availability of penetration, Lethality abusers are not being punished accordingly. Further support for this: Full AD comps are doing fine right now. Not suffering against tanks. EDIT: here is some math I had done on pen builds vs a 400 armor target. this applies largely to Pen ADC's since nobody else is really fully stacking cleaver with ease. a 400 armor target (300 of which is bonus) will lose 110% of their bonus (items runes masteries) armor: (30% of total) 90 from Cleaver = 310 135 armor from LW item (bonus armor (45% of 300) is counted in full value regardless of reduction, since bonus and total armor are calculated seperately) = 175 34 lethality runes and masteries ( Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × Target's level ÷ 18) ) = 141 50 lethality from items (Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × Target's level ÷ 18)) = 91 armor. 400 armor straight to 91. So slightly shy of 110%, but still more than 100% and absolutely absurd.
Verdade (EUNE)
: Why would he double-dip from crit? Crit already gives him AD, which in turn gives him QWER damage
Ever heard of brainstorming? It is this thing where people DUMP ideas, and see how it goes. Pointless criticism is not part of the process.
: >The lethality buffs made it so buying lethality is not inefficient vs multiple tanks. Lethality isn't meant for tanks. Flat pen is meant for squishies, % pen is meant for tanks. Over-tuned or not, it *is* working as intended.
Let me rephrase. Lethality SHOULD be inefficient if facing multiple tanks. It currently is not.
Risen29 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZNsmuY8E,comment-id=0008000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T21:23:52.363+0000) > > The point is: everyone and their cousin is building it. > > Also, flat REDUCTION applies before pen. > Flat PENETRATION applies after. > > Pen is just you, reduction is your team. I double checked, and you are right about the order of application (I think it use to be the other way around) - but you are still wrong about everything else in your math. Applying the Dominiks first against a 500 armor target still only gets you from 242 armor down to 215. Nothing has changed. An assassin still won't kill you any easier. They will need sustained damage or multiple rounds of bursts over a very prolonged period, but they probably won't stay alive that long. For all practical purposes, cleaver stacking has no effect on an AD caster's ability to burst you down. It only comes into effect during teamfight scenarios. So there's no real point in calculating that on top of it. But, just for the sake of calculation - All six stacks, and applying the percentage first, will still only put their armor at 65. No where near the 110% armor reduction you claimed. Now your burst is blown just applying the stacks so you have nothing to follow it up with, and you still have to burn through all that health they have on top of 65 armor (which would be a challenge for a lethality build assassins to do even if the target had no armor). So, again, not practical for assassination, but only has value in teamfights where they can follow up for you.
I see where you got confused. I am not saying 110% armor pen vs a 500 armor target. I an saying 110% of the PURCHASED armor on a 400 armor target, using 300 bonus armor. Purchased = Items, runes, masteries, anything not BASE, same as BONUS.
Risen29 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZNsmuY8E,comment-id=00080001000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T18:31:47.064+0000) > > Cleaver is currently very powerful as an all around AD item. > Every AD caster except jhin wants it because of CDR, HP, AD, and shred. > Also, it isn't JUST one champion stacking the debuff, usually atleast 2 champions a team will have cleaver, meaning it stacks the debuff much faster. A {{champion:21}} + {{champion:104}} will apply that fully stacked damn near instantly. > People built it more for the utility and defense rather than the burst damage increase. It's not going to do much to help you burst people down if you are an assassin, but it might help your team take them out after you hit them. > Since % pen and shred apply before lethality, a 400 armor target (300 of which is bonus) will lose: No, they don't. Flat pen is applied first. That's why flat pen is a waste of gold against a full armor tank.
The point is: everyone and their cousin is building it. Also, flat REDUCTION applies before pen. Flat PENETRATION applies after. Pen is just you, reduction is your team.
Joseraph (NA)
: But Crit is better with Attack Speed, which Jhin doesn't have
: I can think of one thing that might work although i am uncertain if it's good. That would be to create a "lock" of sorts. The function would be that if you start building an item that uses {{item:3134}} then you may not build {{item:3071}} or {{item:3035}} . Because lethality by itself is not terrible. It's the fact that you can stack it ontop of the old armor shredding items that causes massive issues in many cases. So by implementing such a "lock" you could avoid it and see if it helps which would be a start at least.
The only reason I dislike this is that it completely locks out any anti tank building for champions that REALLY want to sweep wards out, or get the movespeed from ghostblade. I would rather see lethality apply BEFORE and % effects, that way at least the synergy with cleaver goes down. This might be a good starting point on the route to full balancing.
Risen29 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZNsmuY8E,comment-id=000800010000,timestamp=2017-02-15T16:16:53.337+0000) > > False. > > Lethality builds are: > {{item:3142}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3033}} > and they penetrate 110% of purchased armor on a 400 armor target. > > So no. 2 Chain vests do not do the trick. > > Armor pen builds of 5 items should ABSOLUTELY ignore the majority of purchased armor of a 5 item armor build, however, they should not reduce your armor to the point of having LESS armor than you would at 0 armor items. Total math failure. You obviously don't know how lethality works (it's flat armor penetration). At level 18, a tank can have base armor of 100, for 500 total armor. Flat armor penetration only takes it down to 440. Whisper takes it down to 242. Black cleaver is not going to help you for burst. So you can throw that out the window of your calculations if you are an AD caster. 242 armor is an impossible barrier to burst through as an AD burst assassin. You will need sustained damage to deal with them, or multiple rounds of bursts. But, if you happen to be a bruiser that can survive long enough to apply all six stacks, then you'll reduce their armor down to 110. 100 armor leftover is still 50% damage reduction. That's a lot for an AD assassin to try to burst through, but they'll never get to try it because they will either be dead before they reach 30% reduction, and then their burst is already spent getting you to that point, so they have nothing left to take advantage of it. Plus, it's a complete waste of gold and item slots to stack flat armor pen with percentage armor pen if your only goal is to take down a full tank - because the flat armor pen doesn't give you enough to be worthwhile. If you only used cleaver and whisper you could still reduce them down to 125 armor. You're better off building defense items so you can actually apply the cleaver - but then you are no longer capable of burst.
The only part of that build meant to aid in tank killing is the Mortal Reminder / LDR. Cleaver is currently very powerful as an all around AD item. Every AD caster except jhin wants it because of CDR, HP, AD, and shred. Also, it isn't JUST one champion stacking the debuff, usually atleast 2 champions a team will have cleaver, meaning it stacks the debuff much faster. A {{champion:21}} + {{champion:104}} will apply that fully stacked damn near instantly. Since % pen and shred apply before lethality, a 400 armor target (300 of which is bonus) will lose: (30% of total) 90 from Cleaver = 310 135 armor from LW item (bonus armor (45% of 300) is counted in full value regardless of reduction, since bonus and total armor are calculated seperately) = 175 34 lethality runes and masteries ( Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × Target's level ÷ 18) ) = 141 50 lethality from items (Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × Target's level ÷ 18)) = 91 armor. 400 armor straight to 91. So slightly shy of 110%, but still more than 100% and absolutely absurd. EDIT: For clarification, the way the formula works for lethality is that you do 0.6 + (0.4 x (level / 18)) this way lethality is 1 for 1 at target level 18.
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VfEXAhRk,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T02:45:57.312+0000) > > It's not always an option to get out of MFs ult, CC exists in the game, MF even has a fairly strong slow on her kit. It's also not always black and white, sometimes you stay in it for a few shots to get a chance at interrupting it. It's also just a giant fucking AOE, it can often be quite hard to escape due to its shear size. And we are talking about the one class in the game where many of them have targeted CC... Look, I'm not pretending lethality isn't a bit overtuned currently because it most certainly is but tanks didn't suddenly become unviable. It's not black and white, you are correct but assuming that a tank will take a full channel MF ult every time it happens falls under that same faulty logic. The spell has always been powerful in that way. If she fully channels it on your team, it hurts. > The point was more that lethality does way too much to tanks and really just everyone. The most important number you should take from that isn't the MF's ult damage, that's just an example of how quickly a tank can potentially die if the situation allows. The important number is what the Rammus's armour drops to, 114 armour, he has 10 more than his base armour when he obtained 436 more armour than base. Why is it ever OK to ignore 8720 gold worth of stats. That's absurd and something needs to be done about it. Why should 8720 gold nullify 30k+ gold an entire team (assuming 3 ADs) spends on damage/pen? That is absurd. > And yes, tanks fucking melt on this patch, because the current state of pen makes it almost impossible to gather any armour. If you're denying that you're being incredibly biased. Tanks aren't melting. Are they dying slightly faster? Sure, but we all know lethality is a bit overtuned and BC is getting nerfed. But the complaint that tanks instadie now is just completely inaccurate and I know this because: A) i play tanks and bruisers and I'm not dying significantly faster than i was last patch B) these full lethality + percentage pen builds work on a very small handful of champions. And in each case, there's plenty of room to play around those champions and prevent them from doing that absurd level of damage. So no, I'm not bias because I play tanks and play this game intelligently. I'd describe myself as someone being rational and logical.
Nobody said the tank will eat the full MF ult EVERY TIME. Nobody ecept YOU at least. The issue is not dying to the MF ult. The issue his how LITTLE armor you end up with. 400 armor = 90 armor. 110% of your purchased / runes armor gone. (for an average tank's base armor stat) Not Ok. I would be ok with 75% purchased / runes armor, a strong majority mitigated by a 5 item investment is fine. But over 100% is a goddamn war crime lol.
: Jhin gets bonus AD from crit **and** attack speed. [See yourself.](http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Jhin) I doubt they are going to buff this ratio. They should just nerf lethality in my opinion.
: > [{quoted}](name=Spaceman5pff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZNsmuY8E,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2017-02-15T16:08:59.139+0000) > > That is fine, but his kit was built to be balanced around crit and attack speed builds. > > He has a bunch of "tuning levers" (as riot likes to call them) that only work if he is doing an attack speed / crit build. > > Maybe he needs to have less AA range so his MS buff on crits is more meaningful? He DOES only use a pistol to AA. Just a thought though. Doing this would make Jhin next to useless, he would just get chased down by every other champ out there due to his terrible maneuverability, even with the MS speed buff from his AA he'd be so close that it wouldn't give him a chance to get away.
Maybe then, if riot REALLY wants to force him into crit, they can give his W and / or Q crit chance and reduced base damage. I don't know how to fix it 100%, but what I do know is that these lethality builds are not healthy for the game, at least on ADC's.
: Mordekaiser's Q equivalents in other games
For Honor https://s3.amazonaws.com/tank-war-room-www/assets/editorial/2017/02/For-Honor-Shugoki-Attack.jpg
: > [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVPbhQu1,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T02:24:19.601+0000) > > But she has a high mobility spell and a strong range spell. Without her ult, she has no dash. No dash is a juggernaut characteristic. With her ult, refer to the title of this thread. > As opposed to Irelia and Nocturne who are low damage, understood. If those champs build as much defense as Shyv builds, then they would have comparatively less damage, yes.
{{champion:102}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3047}} {{item:3091}} {{item:3102}} {{item:3022}} In her prime, when Shyv could lane and her kit was good, not some butcher's table rework crap, shyv was no stranger to offense.
LankPants (OCE)
: >Low mobility and range, But she has a high mobility spell and a strong ranged spell. >high damage. As opposed to Irelia and Nocturne who are low damage, understood.
Shyv WAS low range, then riot decided to play with her. As for her MS Buff: {{champion:86}} {{champion:72}} Pretty Typical for a juggernaut to have movespeed on a basic spell.
: so you can build two chain vests and make all AD champs in the enemy team absolutely useless?
False. Lethality builds are: {{item:3142}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3033}} and they penetrate 110% of purchased armor on a 400 armor target. So no. 2 Chain vests do not do the trick. Armor pen builds of 5 items should ABSOLUTELY ignore the majority of purchased armor of a 5 item armor build, however, they should not reduce your armor to the point of having LESS armor than you would at 0 armor items.
: A large part of the issue is that lethality is vastly more cost efficient than crit. I don't recall exactly but for the price of {{item:3006}} {{item:3031}} and{{item:3085}} you can buy {{item:3006}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} and a {{item:3134}} . Meaning that by the time the critbuilds have barely completed their 2nd big item the lethality users are already building their 3rd. And there is the fact that lethality items all have great stats. AD, lethality, movement speed and various passives. Those passive's increase the value of the items so much in a way that isn't reflected in the prices and the current state of the game is testament to this.
THIS. The lethality buffs made it so buying lethality is not inefficient vs multiple tanks. Removing the drawback of lethality brings us back to the same issue of old armor pen: Buying it snowballs you simply by absurd gold efficiency. Blah blah scaling blah blah. The efficiency is too high.
: Maybe we should buff the AD he gets from Crit.
Are you suggesting they ADD a passive where he get AD from crit? Or that they BUFF the part where he gets AD from attack speed? As of now, he gets AD from attack speed, and movespeed from crit chance.
KETSU0 (NA)
: riot needs to stop forcing champs to build a certain way
There is one huge advantage to it: Easier to balance (when building as intended): Jhin has plenty of ways to balance around AS / Crit builds. That being said - I would like to see AP ratio on his W and his 4th shot scaling.
: Jhin is op anyway. Hadn't left the top 3 marksman since what? Release?
I miss Jinx being meta. Was fun to play as / alongside, and has very clear counterplay.
: Jihn always benefited from armor penetration. I learned this from playing Sion Support in Jihn botlanes.
That is fine, but his kit was built to be balanced around crit and attack speed builds. He has a bunch of "tuning levers" (as riot likes to call them) that only work if he is doing an attack speed / crit build. Maybe he needs to have less AA range so his MS buff on crits is more meaningful? He DOES only use a pistol to AA. Just a thought though.
Leonerdo (NA)
: I think the meta for Jhin is actually: Ghostblade (which is generically good on every AD caster/assassin, and is getting nerfed), and then IE + Rapid Fire Cannon. There are much worse offenders of the all-Lethality builds imo; I'd target MF personally.
: the 4th shot being an auto-crit has nothing to do with speedy jhin they should rework that actualy, remove the auto-crit and look at some part of passive to compensate it while not doing compensation to lethality jhin
I think the only way to do this would be to amp up the way he scales with attack speed - and then give his spells scalings such that they require such absurd amounts of AD that only building attack speed is viable.
Ralanr (NA)
: But I love my speedy on every shot Jhin.
: Nice! Good. It's a pretty shitty feeling seeing all of these threads to the extent that it's almost impossible to just write em off as liars. As far as people calling you cheaters... I rarely ever saw that. What I see is critical thinkers realizing that they can't know whether you're innocent or not, so they're not gonna take your side and fight for you. This is the internet... if you expected everyone to have faith in you anonymous strangers, then you're delusional, and I'm sick of everyone saying "everyone just says I'm guilty" ..it wasn't like that. Just because we don't defend everyone who makes a wrongfully banned thread, doesn't mean we all thought you were guilty liars.
To be fair, it IS true that scripters will write up similar complaint posts to make it seem more legit.
: Wait your a shaco one trick and cant play support? Hes got good range and damage and properly set up boxes make it almost impossible to gank the lane hes in. You being 0/15 simply means your bad at engaging.
This LMAO. This guy is the first Shaco one trick I have heard of that can't support lmao.
: No mechanic supports are worse for me. I tried to play Janna but I ended up feeding because I kept wanting to do things when I really can't. So it's not that you should play a non mechanical support, it's that you should play a support that most fits your playstyle. For me Morganna/thresh would be easier than Janna.
I can relate. there is this really toxic "I dont wanna be carried" mindset in a lot of the community. People would rather throw away a possible win by trying to scrap back from a lost lane than just sit back, play safe, and let themselves be carried. I think the issue is people just think the game is boring if they aren't fed. Regardless, you support picks reflect this mentality. Not saying the champions are bad picks, but the reasons described for why you hate Janna add up with these picks. Some people just will not ever learn how to sit back, defend their AD and E spam their way to some free ELO.
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Spaceman5pff

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