: Nothing about how ALWAYS having a marksman makes it so that certain other types of champs have a hard time properly fitting into a well designed team comp? Why have a melee carry when you have a ranged one with no major drawback since they're meta mandatory?
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QbQfbguG,comment-id=000300000003,timestamp=2018-09-24T22:17:49.173+0000) > > Nothing about how ALWAYS having a marksman makes it so that certain other types of champs have a hard time properly fitting into a well designed team comp? > > Why have a melee carry when you have a ranged one with no major drawback since they're meta mandatory? But real talk, has that actually happened? Because as far as I can tell, it hasn't really. The problem with a melee carry is how disgustingly OP they'd have to be in solo lanes in order to be viable vs a ranged laner with a support. That's kind of my point (if I had one) - making marksmen more viable for lanes other than bot means you have to balance them around bot *and* other lanes meaning the balance of marksmen just got a lot harder. Similarly, if you want to allow Ren, Darius, and others bot, Riot now has the task of balancing them around both lanes. Neither is impossible, but I do think the odds of it going badly are high. We already got a taste of that when marksmen were made almost entirely non-viable. Then subsequent marksmen buffs basically made the botlane mostly the same with a few outliers. To get true character diversity bot seems like it will be... tough.
Spencer (NA)
: Why is "character diversity" bot a good thing?
Were they really "running out of control"? For the bulk of LoL, they seemed really balanced. It wasn't until the last few seasons that they seemed to spiral out of control. Plus, that's a separate issue. If they were busted before the class diversity initiative, they are busted after.
Tik115 (NA)
: I think the focus of late game carries is moreso powercreep then anything, hell you're seeing less utility supports nowerdays because damage is so high most are just with the attitude of "Well I'll either be a big beefy tank.....or we'll go kill-lane". And when an early game focused carry can't duel a late game carry in the said early game it becomes a question of "Why pick early game champs when you get to late game in 2-3 items" Lets not forget the days when you would pick {{champion:236}} Into {{champion:67}} because she outright could not duel him in the early, or how you picked {{champion:51}} knowing that come mid and late game you would lose out in a straight up fight vs late game focused carries {{champion:96}} {{champion:18}}. Even back in Season 2 despite being spoonfed gold they never had as much powercreep as they do now. Hell before Fnatic made the now iconic lane set-up the ADC went solo mid to get the gold
> [{quoted}](name=Tik115,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QbQfbguG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T18:28:30.407+0000) > > I think the focus of late game carries is moreso powercreep then anything, hell you're seeing less utility supports nowerdays because damage is so high most are just with the attitude of "Well I'll either be a big beefy tank.....or we'll go kill-lane". > > And when an early game focused carry can't duel a late game carry in the said early game it becomes a question of "Why pick early game champs when you get to late game in 2-3 items" > > Lets not forget the days when you would pick {{champion:236}} Into {{champion:67}} because she outright could not duel him in the early, or how you picked {{champion:51}} knowing that come mid and late game you would lose out in a straight up fight vs late game focused carries {{champion:96}} {{champion:18}}. > > Even back in Season 2 despite being spoonfed gold they never had as much powercreep as they do now. Hell before Fnatic made the now iconic lane set-up the ADC went solo mid to get the gold This is kind of where my thinking goes too. I guess I worry about the "character diversity" initiative because it seems to almost embrace the power creep in a "this is how it is" type of way. I also worry for those that like to play ADC in that it seems to be a pretty significant nerf to marksman as a class. When the initiative first launched, it basically saw the end of the marksman. After some buffs they became more viable, but now botlane has tons more levers that need tuning because there's nothing saying that a Heimer won't all of the sudden excel in bot lane which might or might not be bad for marksmen in general, but now every nerf/buff potentially impacts the bot laning phase which I can't see being healthy long term.
  Rioter Comments
: Losing promos because of internet
My view on internet issues and punishment is that if it is happening infrequently, then yeah it sucks but it is not much more than a super temporary nuisance. If it is happening a lot, then you have to fix your internet. You're adversely affecting a lot of people, and at that point the punishment is pretty warranted. Riot has already made it clear that they don't want dodging during champ select (to avoid dodging to get a favorable MU, your favorite champ, etc). How are they supposed to tell the difference between your drop and a dodge? I don't believe they easily can. So in other words, if this happens infrequently, I'm legit sorry. That is frustrating, and it definitely sucks. You'll get 'em next time, champ. If it doesn't then fix your internet!
Zerenza (NA)
: When your laner tells you not to fight someone, please listen.
If it helps, signals are full blown mixed at this point. In a ton of games, you're all but told not to help a certain lane only for that lane to start bitching that they've "been ganked 100 times, and report jungler for doing nothing to help". As a jungler, we definitely fuck up (take fights we shouldn't, miss ganks that were easy, etc.)... but the burden put on us can be pretty damn insane. People aren't usually mad at top or bot for feeding until their third contiguous death, but if jungler dies once to a lane? "GG, jungle threw game". Hell, I've had some pretty terrible games mid, and people don't say shit to me... but god help me as a jungler, if I happen to be bottom when the enemy jungler ganks top... It's mad thankless.
: Mecha/Kaiju universe
> [{quoted}](name=Xodiathe4bdn1,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8OdNaHMk,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-18T18:08:18.422+0000) > the theme of giant monsters reeking havoc on cities is in dire need of further exploration Not to be that guy, it is "wreaking havoc"... except in the case of Tahm, there you were correct. Also, hell yeah we need more Kaiju.
Altiverse (EUNE)
: What's wrong with this game, summarized in 1 second
Why in all that is fucking holy are people considering 5/3 fed? That's almost a statement of the problem right there...
: You know why it's 27 min? because people who feed refuse to surrender the first two times, games actually last 10 minutes. Every single time, somebody will feed, and not even jungler can help anymore because they are weaker and the fed champ can easily go 2 vs 1. So yes, fix the snowballing.
> [{quoted}](name=Sugarlicious,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Esv0h81A,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2018-06-14T07:46:03.393+0000) > > You know why it's 27 min? because people who feed refuse to surrender the first two times, games actually last 10 minutes. Every single time, somebody will feed, and not even jungler can help anymore because they are weaker and the fed champ can easily go 2 vs 1. So yes, fix the snowballing. Bot... bot will feed. 100% of the time, it is bot.
: PSA: average game times at patch 8.11 ranged from 27min (low mmr) to 23min (high mmr)
Doesn't sound like this is a popular opinion, but I am all for the shorter games. As I get older, the amount of time I have to play has dropped sharply. Shorter games means more games.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNgviuTO,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-10T14:03:05.733+0000) > > You occasionally get forced to play jungle, and when you do, you do fairly bad at it > > lmao, having no intel on theses games, how can you say i played fairly bad mister hardstuck silver ? Call it a lucky guess mister plays one game way too much.
: The game has always been if I don't do this I fall behind even farther and lose. I don't see the difference. If your having problems in the jungle its because you have valuing buffs to much and camp clearing. New jungle is more about 4 camp lvl 3 then try to gank and tax your lanes for exp. Then go back into jungle to get rest of exp to level up again. If enemy junglers want to invade let them. They will fall behind in levels. I've noticed ill be 2 levels ahead of a lot of people in my games because they aren't taxing lane exp like I do. Because of this lvl advantage I normally snowball for my team. Even If my teammates cry about me taxing them Idc. Jungle exp is pretty trash atm imo that lane taxing is a must.
> [{quoted}](name=The Missing Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNgviuTO,comment-id=0011000000000001,timestamp=2018-06-10T05:40:21.454+0000) > > The game has always been if I don't do this I fall behind even farther and lose. I don't see the difference. If your having problems in the jungle its because you have valuing buffs to much and camp clearing. New jungle is more about 4 camp lvl 3 then try to gank and tax your lanes for exp. Then go back into jungle to get rest of exp to level up again. If enemy junglers want to invade let them. They will fall behind in levels. I've noticed ill be 2 levels ahead of a lot of people in my games because they aren't taxing lane exp like I do. Because of this lvl advantage I normally snowball for my team. > > Even If my teammates cry about me taxing them Idc. Jungle exp is pretty trash atm imo that lane taxing is a must. I appreciate that you are being pretty reasonable and looking for ways to adapt to the new jungle... but doesn't this post basically say that the new jungle is such a shit show that you have to go to lane and steal xp from your laner in order to generate an advantage against a jungler who actually tries to jungle? That's hardly an endorsement for the current jungle.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNgviuTO,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-10T03:42:37.284+0000) > > How the f*ck i don't play jungle ?? sure its my side role. But i sure play it. And you just look at my main account. > Is it troll cause i don't bitch about changes ? is it troll cause i have a better understanding of jungle than any random silver ? Lord you are sensitive. Don't take it so personally kiddo, we're just chatting on the internet. The troll is that you're a one trick Wu Top. You occasionally get forced to play jungle, and when you do, you do fairly bad at it (with a notable exception here and there). But I'm sure your alt account is you just killing it in the jungle. And I wouldn't pull the rank card, since what little we've heard out of pros and challengers has been bleak. And if your opinion invalidates mine, theirs invalidates yours.
jgbbgj (EUNE)
: New jungle sucks for every player who loved to play jungle
Yeah I'm looking more mid... though going top isn't a bad idea. Yorick is my all time favorite champ. Plus, as an extra "FU", top led the charge in putting jungle in its current state. Helping to clog those pipes seems... fitting.
: > Is there really a person out there that thought that killing a giant golden crab that spends its time running from you would be interesting? i feel like jng is more interesting now than pre 8.10.
> [{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNgviuTO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-06-09T19:19:40.730+0000) > > i feel like jng is more interesting now than pre 8.10. My first post pretty clearly specified jungle mains... and you don't jungle. So the point stands, but I'm glad you find the position that you don't play to be more interesting to play... In fact, it isn't a bit of a stretch to say this entire thread can be summed up as "if you play jungle you hate it. If you've played like three games of the new jungle, you troll by coming in and tell the rest of us how much better it is."
jgbbgj (EUNE)
: New jungle sucks for every player who loved to play jungle
I despise it. I have met zero jungle mains that find it more interesting. It is just fundamentally less interesting to play. It removed viable champions, game presence, skill, and game choice. It added more snowballing to the game which is something we are dealing with right now in how ADCs don't feel like they can contribute any longer since the game isn't lasting long enough to "hyper carry". I have played since beta, and I think it is the single least successful rework in the history of the game. I am still baffled by how anyone thought it would be a good idea. Is there really a person out there that thought that killing a giant golden crab that spends its time running from you would be interesting?
P00PD1CK (EUW)
: Why are there so few AP bruisers? So champs who build some damage items then go tank.
I was hoping this was the direction they were going to go with Ryze back when tanky Ryze was the default build. They went the other direction toward a crazy spell slinger. Same with the Swain rework (though I admittedly like the Swain rework except for this dumb visual upgrade).
Yenn (NA)
: It feels like 90% of games this season are over by 10-15 minutes
I don't actually mind the games being shorter. As I get older, I have less time to play and so a 20-30 minute game is far more preferable to me than a 40-50 minute game (it is a big reason I'm playing LoL and not DotA... though after the jungle changes, that is slowly changing). My bigger gripe is that the game is snowbally as hell. By minute 10 you have a good idea of who is going to win. By minute 20 it seems almost guaranteed. I wish there was a way to keep the game length roughly what it is now while rolling back how bad the snowball is.
Akaviri (NA)
: "Farming at turret" shouldn't be your default... you only play passive and farm at turret if it's your best option. Otherwise you're not playing your champ to its limits.
> [{quoted}](name=Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=10dNwy5l,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-06-06T20:27:25.365+0000) > > "Farming at turret" shouldn't be your default... you only play passive and farm at turret if it's your best option. Otherwise you're not playing your champ to its limits. I think the point is that at bronze/silver/gold, no one is playing their champ to its limits. If you push because it is the right pro thing to do, but you don't ward and/or don't have the map awareness to avoid the inevitable gank... it isn't the right thing to do.
Zerenza (NA)
: What do you expect your jungler to do.
I find people have a misconception about what a jungler is doing. "Why are you always ganking top... we are losing bot." Well... I am always ganking top precisely because you are losing bot. I'm not your catch-up mechanic (that's a good way to give the lane you already fed an extra kill). I'm your get-further-ahead mechanic. You want ganks? Win your lane and we'll snowball together. If you have a rough early game, no problem... play safe and if you can sufficiently catch-up, you'll get ganks again. Or you'll go into the mid game slightly behind but with a fed top. Catch up then. tl;dr: Jungles don't gank to "help you out" when you're behind. That's dumb.
: I think the jungle changes need to just be around a little longer for people to develop different strategies, but getting rid of champion diversity I don't think is EVER a good decision …...
> [{quoted}](name=Chill Vibez,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wW8zh847,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-31T03:13:14.304+0000) > > I think the jungle changes need to just be around a little longer for people to develop different strategies, but getting rid of champion diversity I don't think is EVER a good decision …... It isn't about strategies, it is about fun. I agree that there's plenty to still flesh out with the current jungle. The question is whether or not it is fun. I think the majority of jungle mains don't feel that it is. Ultimately, I think this is the harshest criticism I can give it. OP/UP can be nerfed/buffed to a good place. But it is much more difficult to inject fun into something that isn't fun. It is even worse since the old jungles were all pretty damn fun. I'm close to going mid too tbh because I'm fucking tired of getting every Scuttle, being 2/0/1 and still hitting 6 after my support.
: I've stopped playing jungle. Ain't no point no more.
I'm giving it more of a shot, but I think it is undeniably less interesting and less fun (perhaps the most damning criticism we can level at it).
: These changes are going live for her in 8.11 Mark of the Kindred Mark Respawn Time :: 50 seconds >>> 40 seconds First Mark Time :: 2:20 >>> 2:05 [BUGFIX] :: Assists on Rift Scuttler now appropriately collect marks
Can I make a case for that not being enough? Her early game mark farming is hit pretty hard. I like that they are popping more often, but with there only being one scuttler, the odds that her first 3 marks are entirely in the enemy jungle is pretty high (assuming she can't grab the first one). Hell, given the respawn timer on crabby, doesn't it basically guarantee that her second mark is going to be in the jungle? If she gets the first Scuttler, her next mark will respawn in 40 seconds with 110 seconds left on Scuttle popping again. If someone is able to farm that mark in the next minute and some change, then her third camp is all but guaranteed to pop in the enemy jungle as well. That's fine on games in which I get a decent early lead, but it is disastrous if I fall behind. Added to that, the only other way to "reliably" farm marks was to get kills. But by design, Kindred (and every other jungler) is less competent at ganking during this period.
Xonra (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Jhrsuw9o,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-29T18:35:44.105+0000) > > If you're a top laner and you didn't help them secure the Scuttle you are partially to blame. > > Always look up changes after a long break from League. Mid is the one who is supposed to have priority and helping with scuttle, not top. If you are relying on your top like that you are doing it wrong, and probably losing your top their lane.
Doesn't that largely depend on where scuttle is? I would hardly expect mid to come help 3/4's a lane away. Top wanted less jungle ganks, and now that burden has shifted to them having to help carry us. Shitty? Yes.
Slythion (NA)
: The jungle changed pretty drastically recently so it's very likely that jungle mains are still adapting. Also, jungle is heavily reliant on their midlaner having priority so it's possible having bad picks mid are also effecting jungler performance
A lot of us are not jungle mains anymore too. That could see a rise in fills having to go jungle. Shit's just not fun anymore.
Smithy2Q (NA)
: This. Singed would stand in your base, run around, have all the minions follow him, the enemy team chases him, takes him down ... and get 15 gold. Meanwhile Singed has just farmed three waves and his team does Baron. I think there's an argument for making feeding be worth less gold, but you can't just revert it. Now, I remember reading something somewhere about how certain amounts of farming could reset your kill bounty, so proxy Singed in particular would not be an issue. I don't remember if that was just a fan proposal or if it ever became a thing, but that's another lever you can turn.
That's really not a terrible idea. You get that 0/6/0 Vayne that just splits off while her team holds on defense and actually becomes relevant again due to farming her ass off. She should probably be worth more than 0/6.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eyesack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gz3EmVt9,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-29T02:21:41.325+0000) > > must-ban champion in literally every meta of this game. Yea I complain alot on the boards, and I don't understand why we tailor the games to burst champions being top notch, and then why did we make everyone a burst champion. I honestly feel 90% of leagues problems are that damage is too high.
KZ Engel (NA)
: half the bans are from people who don't want him on their team. he's easy to fuck up on. extreme popularity + unreliable = don't want them on my team
Sometimes you just don't want to deal with it too. I ban plenty of popular characters that aren't necessarily strong.
: before this season ever since i started playing junglers used to be behind in levels. But hey I only played 1 jungle game on 8.10 and as if that wasn't bad enough it wasn't even ranked, so i guess i've never jungled before. So let's get this straight most of what i said is plain wrong? What a nice argument. It's safe to assume you agree with the following then?: - I guess i was just trippin for most of the time i played league and junglers were ahead in exp all this time, i just didn't notice untill this season. - Junglers SHOULD decide the whole game. - If you can't 2v1 someone it's because you're a sad weak jungler and not cuz you fucked up. - Doing Scuttle wasn't needed before. - Junglers weren't overbearing as hell All in all you don't have to "relearn jungle" you're still just playing pve half the time, and other than that you need to learn pathing. This isn't the jungle i wish it was, i'd love to be able to play leo jungle again but that was pretty ihard before the scuttle changes already. Your meta shifted and now you're just looking for an excuse for your 34% winrate. sorry if your favourite role isn't broken anymore but i'm just glad i actually get to win my own lane again.
I've played since beta, and junglers have had ups and downs in their XP gains and gold. In some cases junglers would even out farm and level the solo lanes. In this case, they drag along somewhere around the support (depending on some factors). I'm not criticizing you because you have an opinion. I'm criticizing you because you just said something as if it was a fact when it wasn't. Further, even were it the case that junglers lagged behind in xp and gold for every season (which it isn't), the "is" doesn't presuppose the "ought". You are making an "ought" argument... namely that jungler's "ought" to be behind in gold and levels. And to defend that, you are using "is" language. If you want to make an argument as to why junglers ought to be behind in levels, then make it. The rest of your post, I can comfortably ignore since it is projections of what you think I was saying (likely stemming from the fact that I hurt your feelings and you're feeling overly defensive). But for fun, no you may not be tripping, but yes you are being myopic. No, junglers shouldn't decide the whole game. Okay. If you think that, you definitely don't get an opinion on how junglers should play. And sometimes yes, sometimes no. In any case, I want to clear-up some of these hurt feelings since I didn't mean to insult you. I was just pointing out that a person who only plays one round of the new patch as the most affected role and then has the audacity to over-simply it using stupid language to insult people like "it's not hard" while using the fact that they've "played jungle this game" as evidence that they should be taken seriously isn't a person that we should actually take seriously. I just wanted to make that explicit for anyone that tripped over your post and thought that you might actually know what you are talking about. Your opinion on this matter is 100% biased by your feelings about playing "against" junglers. And that's fine too... but just be honest about it...
: Mostly fill players in my group of friends
Any jungle mains? I have met plenty of people that liked the patch (top seems especially pleased). I was speaking specifically more specifically about jungle mains. If you know of any jungle mains that enjoy the patch, I'd be curious to hear their opinions.
: I've experienced the opposite. Everyone I asked liked the jungle changes. Admittedly, I didn't ask a lot of people. But I think it's safe to say that not as many people dislike the changes as most posts make it out to be.
Trias000 (EUNE)
: People complain that they get ganked early. (I don't know why. Do they want a "friendly lane till 20:00" policy or what?). Riot nerfs that, so people complain that they can't gank early ;) *sigh*
Yes, that's exactly what they want. Top is playing what is effective a 1v1 game (with a random burst here or there where they can tele gank). They have zero interest in letting someone else play that game with them. Mid is effectively free from ganks since it is easy to ward, has a tiny distance to the tower, and plenty of mids are highly mobile. Bot is fairly easy to gank, but it is incredibly high risk, and that risk can end in feeding the strongest character in the game at present (the ADC). Many games have been lost because an ADC can get an early snowball which translates into a game ending lead. I think the absurdity of all of these changes is to stop the level 3 gank top that happens fairly quickly. That's it. I am really curious why they didn't just scale XP for the first run through. I'm sure it was bandied about, but fundamentally changing the game (and the subsequent buffing/nerfing that will have to happen as a result) seems crazy to me to fix something that happened exactly once in most games.
: Geez it's almost as if the jungler is supposed to be behind in level on laners. You know kinda like it used to be. But guess notf. Clearly a jungler should make or break the game (a bad jungler still loses you the game btw). If laners are capable of 1v2ing you np, then mby you need to realize that the only reason you had any success was because your role was too strong. i've played jungle this game, instead of invading try taking crabs, clear your own jungle and gank. It's not hard, it's not that different. Idk why you weren't doing scuttle before the changes anyway.
Unless you have an alt, you have jungled exactly one (unranked) game in 8.10. Most of what you say is plain wrong. Perhaps getting some jungling experience would help with that?
: junglers are literally stronger then they have ever been with these changes. you guys are fucking high
Well that's going to need some qualification...
: I don't have any statistics to back it up, but I feel like it's just a really vocal minority complaining about Scuttle changes.
I don't have statistics either, but I do know that I have never found a jungler that liked the changes in all of the games I ask it in. That's not an exaggeration. I am literally batting 0. That's anecdotal, but it is worth trying in any case. "Lack of an impact" seems to be the most cited reason. There have been quite a few top laners that seem to enjoy the change though. So yeah, I think that vocal minority might be limited to the majority of people who main jungle... but that's not nothing.
: Junglers for all intents and purposes is the ONLY role in the game with "free" resources to exp and gold generally uncontested. Junglers technically have the most ACCESSIBLE amount of money since they get largely free gold/exp and aren't punished for "roaming" since they have the largest amount of downtime between their resources. Laners WILL lose multiple waves if they roam. That is a fact. Junglers after a full clear will lose MAYBE one rotation of camps if the gank takes an entire 2 minutes after recalling and buying, but that is also a stretch.
I still don't know what you are saying. You (by your own words) are quoting "facts". But that doesn't actually explain why we "ought" to do something. Further, jungle pays for that freedom by making some purchases that aren't all that optimal for much else but speeding through the jungle and ganking (on upgrade. There's a reason Ivern doesn't build a jungle weapon; it is a waste of a slot on a champ that doesn't *need* it. Theirs is also the only gold in the game that can be taken from them. If both of us get pushed off of our gold, laners get an opportunity take clean-up under the tower. Junglers just lose the gold and if the timings are bad (which isn't uncommon), the jungler is just milling about hoping something will happen that will bring them back in the game. Jungle is, by design, some of the least efficient gold and xp in the game outside of the early level 3. There's a reason that junglers gladly sit a lane in most cases. So in that case, there is already a punishment for the "free" gold/exp. You haven't really made a case as to why there needs to be even more of a penalty for playing jungler. Finally, I think there's a dishonesty about your argument that makes it difficult to actually have a fair conversation about this. Junglers don't just start Gromp, work their way through the entire jungle to gank top, and then rinse and repeat as your argument implies... and I believe you know that.
: Incoming buffs and nerfs for junglers
Scuttle is the gift that keeps on giving. Now we get champion balance around how well they can contest scuttle.
: And? They should never be on par with laners in the first place. That's the whole point of it being the jungle with less resources. They're suppose to work around that basis. Not everyone in the game has to be at the same level to have an impact in the game. It's legit a role that's sole purpose is to secure objectives.
Why shouldn't they be? You haven't really made an argument explaining why jungle should lag behind supports in xp. Can't really secure objectives if ADC or top can gak you at any time simply because they have two levels on you. At that point, you're better off letting support ward objectives. A counter-point is that historically jungler had a lot of variety. Sometimes a comp needs an assassin. Sometimes it needs a tank. Sometimes it needs to provide regular ganks. Etc. There was no "that's the whole point of jungle" since jungle as a role varied so much. Narrowing the role of jungler to only be "dragon babysitter" is, I think objectively wrong (and boring as shit if that's the case). I do love that in a patch that was a massive nerf to all but half a dozen junglers, your solution to "fix" it is to nerf them even further... I'd also add that by just about any opinion I've read, jungle was entirely fine in its level pattern with the big exception of its route to level 3. Hell, even Riot knows they fucked this up some since they are nerfing Crab xp and putting some of that back into the camps.
: No, we ended up in this because riot doesn't know how to change the game properly. The only reason early game champions are viable is because of the scuttle crab bs. If they revert scuttle changes, and leave the jungle xp as it currently is, it will balance out.
If they leave the jungle xp as-is, junglers would be leveling slower than support. Like I said above, if they wanted to balance around lvl 3 ganks, they just needed to nerf the experience on the first clear. There's even a precedent in the form of Krugs (30% reduced xp for the first clear in < 8.10).
: lv3 jungle ganks weren't really fun as a lv2 laner tbh. XP increase would bring that horrible experience back. I dont think even D1+ elo players actually know how to fix the jungle without making the game stale-since-season-5 at this point, let alone the balance team
How do lvl2 ganks vs the lvl1 laner feel? All this patch did is lower the time til the first gank and make a whole host of junglers non-viable because of it. If all they wanted to do was to balance how soon a lvl 3 gank could occur, why didn't they just lower the first clear's jungle xp? There's even a precedent for it in the form of golems. Instead they created the weirdest, most out of place, and least interesting mini-game and forced junglers to play it (further alienating the handful of junglers who can actually jungle). Now we are in a weird place in which junglers like Xin are going to get nerfed for no other reason than they play this dumb-dumb minigame better than the other champs. And other champs (some that were oppressive literally a week and a half ago like Kha'zik) are going to get buffs because they suck at crabbing. But I'm sure those buffs won't affect the other lanes when this host of useless junglers find success at top or mid... Real talk, does anyone that mained jungle actually prefer this jungle over the previous one outside of the handful of Graves and/or Xin mains that can still find matches where their champs aren't insta-banned?
Xyzx (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Shazzbot69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iyyBWg1T,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T02:26:54.586+0000) > > yes, because Riot is paying me the big bucks to balance their game. Bad excuse, don't cry for balance if you won't honestly tell riot what needs to be balanced and give reasoning for it.
I mean... it is kind of a perfect excuse. First, don't work for free. Second, there is no guarantee that Riot is going to listen to you, me, or anyone else. Whining is low effort, sure... but working your ass off as an unpaid game dev is a ton of effort with little (if you are lucky) to no payout.
Aptest (EUW)
: Here is my view: is the jungler a threat to play around (proactively or reactively)? or is he a potential free meal, to attempt and get (proactively or reactively)? Should be both.
I don't disagree, but my question to you is how does the current jungle facilitate that? I would argue that the pre-8.10 jungle did that better even though it wasn't perfect.
Aptest (EUW)
: @OP: Ok. So far I agree with you. However all of the items on your list should be contestable by the laners. Does the laner: 1. get a reasonable chance of not letting you ward? 2. get a reasonable opportunity to not allow you to guard objectives? 3. get a reasonable opportunity to not allow you to be hidden or make plans? 4. get a reasonable opportunity to surprise attack you? The situation you describe is where you have all the knowledge and can make all the decisions, and while you play spyVSspy with the other jungler, the other team's interaction with you is purely defensive - i.e. to play in a way that does not permit your gank to succeed. your summary of the jungler job is unfair. There are several problems it causes, chief among which is pinning laners to lanes, and laners not having good enough opportunity to act outside of lane. therefore that definition ought to change. Especially if jungler champions can 1v1 lane champions. I only agree with your no3 point - that the RNG of scuttle spawn ruins your ability to make plans.
Good laners can and do play a pretty proactive game against the enemy jungler. Further, I would argue that the jungler as an unknown quantity actually makes the game more interesting. Top is a snooze fest without the threat of a jungler. Mid isn't much better unless you have a character that can roam. Similarly, outside of a few kill comps, bot just farms until someone pushes a lane down. Jungle is largely the piece that stirs the pot and forces decisions like "do we want to push", etc? This patch has turned jungle into a largely known quantity. Deep warding and fucking with the jungler is less interesting since camps are worth less meaning jungle is going to fall behind generally speaking. The correct option is largely to always push as hard as you can in lane since that gives you crab priority and the jungle threat is pretty limited these days. Even were the jungler unpredictable, they are weak enough that ganks are massive risks. Further, with how hard leveling in the jungle is now, falling behind is a death sentence. Games are massively snowball-y now. Now I don't want junglers to be the only dominate piece of the game. Nor do I want them to be the major deciding factor of who wins or loses. But their unpredictability is a big part of what makes the game so exciting. I remember the farm wars a few seasons back... those games were tedious and awful. It is the killing that makes LoL interested... and the jungler is (was?) largely about facilitating that.
: He has plenty of skill expression with all of his abilities even though he is broken right now
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: If they decreased the XP granted from jungle camps, then there would be no point in farming the jungle. There would be even more lane ganking presence than before, and dare I say, the jungler role could cease to exist. You would once again see duo top, and maybe one of the duoers takes smite so he can clear some camps while the lane is pushing.
You would likely not see duo top. Duo top means two champs are getting behind on XP.
remakoro (EUNE)
: True. I expected something else. You wasnt nice for sure but 14 days is just overkill
For the entirety of my playtime (since beta), I have literally never seen one of these that wasn't warranted. Remember that OP always has incentive to paint themselves in the best possible light. According to the Red in this thread, this was the nicest chat log in the report, and it wasn't that nice. Can you imagine being in that match? Worse still, could you imagine being the target of that? He tilted his own team (and likely lost) for no other reason than he's an infant. Now multiply just this chat across a handful of games and ask how many people's match (and sometimes night if they got tilted enough to quit) he single-handedly ruined. So was it that bad? No, probably not in isolation (depending on how you personally view the insult "retard"), but given that he's probably not even that polite, and he's almost certainly does this on the regular, yeah... 14 days and good riddance.
: "She" http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/915/652/b49.gif
I mean... what does Wolf really do other than KS Lamb?
: They're not horrendously weak, but might need a small nudge. They see play in every elo, and work pretty good if you main them.
Speaking from a low level, Kindred can be tough. She requires your teammates know her kit... and most don't.
: 8.10 and Kindred
Took me forever to get stacks. These changes make getting them from monsters more difficult, and with ganking from the jungle intentionally nerfed, this change makes getting them from kills harder. Took me forever to get to 4 last game. Move the first 4 stacks into our own jungle please.
Mhihnj (EUW)
: Kled and skaarl work well along with kayn and rhaast.
Kayn and Rhaast is just Kayn A and Kayn B. Kled and Skaarl almost work, but it still mostly just feels like Kled and worse Kled.
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Spencer

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