Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > Morgana and Kayle are a story about duality. About how good and evil can be so ultimately.... grey. Except it isn't. Kayle's entire lore was about how she sealed herself in armor to fight as a warrior. She had sometimes tried to lift her opponent's up from her their dark ways, but most often than not she usually purged them. To Kayle, justice could be an ugly thing. Kayle and her side's forces were also locked in a war, which eventually was overturned when Morgana joined the opposing side. When her sister attempted to get help from an outside source, Kayle offered herself as a servant to that outside source in order to prevent them from helping Morgana. However, her master had gone missing (became Jax), so she began to look for why he disappeared. (3rd iteration of lore.) The story isn't about duality at all because there isn't even any duality to be found. Kayle's side is all about loyalty and the slight depression from purging people because you failed at being able to save them.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pmzcm8WE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-06T23:58:42.706+0000) > > Except it isn't. Kayle's entire lore was about how she sealed herself in armor to fight as a warrior. She had sometimes tried to lift her opponent's up from her their dark ways, but most often than not she usually purged them. To Kayle, justice could be an ugly thing. Kayle and her side's forces were also locked in a war, which eventually was overturned when Morgana joined the opposing side. When her sister attempted to get help from an outside source, Kayle offered herself as a servant to that outside source in order to prevent them from helping Morgana. However, her master had gone missing (became Jax), so she began to look for why he disappeared. (3rd iteration of lore.) > > The story isn't about duality at all because there isn't even any duality to be found. Kayle's side is all about loyalty and the slight depression from purging people because you failed at being able to save them. Ignoring the fact that the League portion of their lores has essentially been eradicated and won't even be taken into consideration moving forwards (thus the whole reason they are ON Runeterra, and Morgana/Kayle's interactions with the summoners and the League) You seem to have read the lore from a very specific point of view, that being the side where, in your mind, you have voted for Kayle. And that is perfectly fine, in fact, that is the EXACT reason their story is diametric, and represents the duality of dark and light, good and evil. Kayle has done HORRIFIC things (purging dissidents) in the name of securing justice and order. Morgana has done HORRIFIC things (taking part in her world's dark arts) to take on pain and suffering, in the name of power which she can wield to crush the tyrannical reign of Kayle. But Kayle sees it the same way, she purges people in an effort to establish order and quell the freedoms and dark arts that Morgana might allow their people to use. It is Autocracy v. Democracy, Good v. Evil, Oppressors v. Oppressed. Depending on which lens you view the story through, one side is good and the other is bad, that is what defines them ultimately.
GreenLore (EUW)
: Betrayed by everyone beyond the point of breaking? The only one who "betrayed" her in the old lore was her teacher. Anyway to me old Syndra always came off as someone who lashes out against others,someone who is angry with the world and leaves out her anger at others. She killed her teacher in anger and didn't show a shred of remorse for killing him,instead she projected her anger onto the other elders and saw them just as guilty as her teacher. And given her voice lines she clearly has no respect for the lifes of others,she sees them nothing as toys for her to play with. Overall she went through a lot of trouble and her anger is understandable,but it does not justify the way she handles this anger, even under these circumstances.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R5N1EWq1,comment-id=00050001000200000000,timestamp=2018-08-06T22:24:11.862+0000) > > Betrayed by everyone beyond the point of breaking? > > The only one who "betrayed" her in the old lore was her teacher. > > Anyway to me old Syndra always came off as someone who lashes out against others,someone who is angry with the world and leaves out her anger at others. > She killed her teacher in anger and didn't show a shred of remorse for killing him,instead she projected her anger onto the other elders and saw them just as guilty as her teacher. > > And given her voice lines she clearly has no respect for the lifes of others,she sees them nothing as toys for her to play with. > > Overall she went through a lot of trouble and her anger is understandable,but it does not justify the way she handles this anger, even under these circumstances. Presumably her family (giving her up to the judgement of the village elders) The Village Elders (her magic is too wild and untamed, she must be sent away) Her Mentor (suppressing her powers, denying her her birthright, threatening to take it all away if she rebels) Society (creating the paradigm that developed this sort of culture, that would bridle a prodigy's talent for the sake of "Balance, in all things") Old Syndra only lashed out at one person directly, and she was honing her skill to lash out at the culture that created that person's mindset. In the new lore, as Scathlocke put it already, who knows how many people she has already killed with outbursts of her magic. You also need to take into consideration that VO's done back when Syndra was released were FAR less concerned with narrative. I promise you if you speak to anybody on the narrative team that was there then, versus now, as I have, they will agree that VO's were not given the same care that we see given now, where lore is tied in, interactions are thought out, and the voice and words always match the speaker (think Tahm Kench, his VO would never have been done that way back in the day, it would have been more akin to a Mundo) As to your last point, you are forgetting she is essentially a child with adult power. She can bend the world to her will, but after being betrayed by her mentor who kept trying to teach her to control her thoughts, emotions, and power, this is her teenage rebellion. She is lashing out at everything that he taught her, in an attempt to wash away the sins he dealt to her. It is a typical teenage journey, the issue is she is an adult, but through her being cloistered away by society, she has not grown and developed the same way her peers might have, simply because everyone was afraid of her unparalleled potential.
: I think there needs to be careful consideration in regards to their new story as to not turn their story into something too similar to Renekton and Nasus or Leona and Diana. In the case of Renekton and Nasus, they were brothers who were great partners and allies until a tragic event that eventually lead Renekton to turn on and seek out Nasus for revenge in his madness. It also can't be Leona and Diana, with Diana committing a heinous act without realizing what she was doing at the time and fleeing rather than face the consequences and Leona going after her. I really want it to be a true "War in Heaven" type story. Morgana should be a fallen angel type character, someone who has somewhat been corrupted by dark magic. But her reasons for doing so should be in what she believes to be the best interests of others. I think Morgana should, at least originally, be compassionate and maybe sees her corruption as a last resort to help the people she cares about. Kayle on the other hand should be a warrior, less like a regular angel and more like a Valkyrie. Stern, rather standoffish if one doesn't know her, and always dedicated to her task at hand. She inevitably has to represent the "good guys", the ones not corrupted by dark magics. She should see Morgana's rebellion, whatever it is, as an ultimate betrayal and go after her with fire and fury. Kayle should more or less massacre anyone even remotely involved with Morgana's fall from grace but I also think she should feel sadness about her sister. However Kayle should be ultimately loyal to her orders and be totally willing to strike down Morgana if the chance presents itself. Both should believe they are in the right and be really blinded from the bad things they both do to achieve their end goals. I'm thinking like Paradise Lost with a little more empathy shown for Lucifer's side of the story.
> [{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pmzcm8WE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-06T22:29:47.049+0000) > > I think there needs to be careful consideration in regards to their new story as to not turn their story into something too similar to Renekton and Nasus or Leona and Diana. In the case of Renekton and Nasus, they were brothers who were great partners and allies until a tragic event that eventually lead Renekton to turn on and seek out Nasus for revenge in his madness. It also can't be Leona and Diana, with Diana committing a heinous act without realizing what she was doing at the time and fleeing rather than face the consequences and Leona going after her. I really want it to be a true "War in Heaven" type story. > > Morgana should be a fallen angel type character, someone who has somewhat been corrupted by dark magic. But her reasons for doing so should be in what she believes to be the best interests of others. I think Morgana should, at least originally, be compassionate and maybe sees her corruption as a last resort to help the people she cares about. Kayle on the other hand should be a warrior, less like a regular angel and more like a Valkyrie. Stern, rather standoffish if one doesn't know her, and always dedicated to her task at hand. She inevitably has to represent the "good guys", the ones not corrupted by dark magics. She should see Morgana's rebellion, whatever it is, as an ultimate betrayal and go after her with fire and fury. Kayle should more or less massacre anyone even remotely involved with Morgana's fall from grace but I also think she should feel sadness about her sister. However Kayle should be ultimately loyal to her orders and be totally willing to strike down Morgana if the chance presents itself. Both should believe they are in the right and be really blinded from the bad things they both do to achieve their end goals. I'm thinking like Paradise Lost with a little more empathy shown for Lucifer's side of the story. See I think this is perfectly reasonable, and respects the established story between the two, yet fleshes out some more of the details. Granted, this might not be the direction they DO want to flesh out, and maybe it is the story leading up to what we know as them, but again I think it is incredibly important to start exploring what we think of these characters, and what we expect going forward. Ultimately Riot is the owner of their IP, and what they choose to do is definitive. But I think they have neglected to really consider what existing champ-mains consider to be important to their champ's backstory. The more we communicate this upfront and with great advance notice, the better chance we have of being heard and acted on. Keep it up, this is really helpful even if it is just an anecdote of how you specifically see the story shaping.
: > [{quoted}](name=Scathlocke,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R5N1EWq1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-06T16:49:43.692+0000) > > IMO, Syndra is now a character with a thematic conflict, where before she was rather lacking. She is a personification of not being aware of the consequences of your own actions, but also of the dangers of marginalising people who don't fit into the dominant worldview - can you imagine if she'd been born in Noxus with this power? They would have been very impressed, and nurtured and trained her, and let her loose on the front lines at the first opportunity. > > She's not evil. She was just dealt a difficult hand of cards, in the grand scheme of things. Intent and dealing with consequences of actions shows character tho. I understand the need for conflict to drive story, but it seems you are making consequences just a side effect that characters never deal with. I can understand making a character into a tragic individual, as done here with Syndra. But like the other commenter mentioned, she selfishly ignores the consequences of her actions. That _does_ seem pretty evil, although admittedly even antagonists can eventually earn their redemption. Annie was a hell child before, so I understand making her backstory tragic to evoke sympathy. But very similar situation there. Zoe is a seemingly good-hearted, fun character but she shows zero reflection upon the consequences of her actions, making her seem more psychopathic than anything. Again, maybe that's the goal. My own personal fave, Fizz, was also a good-hearted light and fun character, but he's had the pall of death put over him due to the consequenses of taking tithes. Sure, he doesn't want to cause harm, but will we ever see him realize what he's done and try to make amends? Dealing with consequences of negative actions reveals the true character of an individual, probably moreso than most other conflicts. But with 140 champions and such nebulous "But what if they aren't truly evil?" teases, it'll be a long time before getting around to any resolution of these situations it seems. And that's rather frustrating from a player perspective. Again, I understand the need for more complexity in characters, but does it always have to be so dark?
> [{quoted}](name=FattyDrake,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R5N1EWq1,comment-id=00050006,timestamp=2018-08-06T20:56:28.423+0000) >But with 140 champions and such nebulous "But what if they aren't truly evil?" teases, it'll be a long time before getting around to any resolution of these situations it seems. And that's rather frustrating from a player perspective. I just wanted to quote this again for more visibility, because this/cadence is the biggest pain point for lore-lovers like ourselves, and it needs to be yelled from the rooftops over and over again.
Pale Mask (EUW)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Tharizdûn,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pmzcm8WE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-06T21:01:27.978+0000) > > Kayle and Morgana are amongst the first champions I ever played and my personal favorites, but I have no faith in Riot to tell a morally grey story that involves them. > > Their conflict's become too diluted. It's been reused in Order VS Chaos, Leona VS Diana etc. and they didn't go too well. I'm pretty sure we'll leave dissatisfied at the end of this update. And yet, the sooner we express this concern, hopefully the more time in we give for somebody to see this concern, and possibly cause them to rethink if even for a moment a direction that would be going southward.
Rioter Comments
GreenLore (EUW)
: To be honest,how does old Syndra not feel evil to you? She murdered her mentor in the old lore as well,granted in the old lore he threatened to seal her power permanently,but given what she did next it felt like he was justified in his threat and at the end she sets out to destroy the "weak and foolish leaders of ionia and anyone else who would dare to shackle her greatness." even though the only one who tried to shackle her was her old master. Not to mention her voicelines like "Run, playthings." "A whole world to toy with."
> [{quoted}](name=GreenLore,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R5N1EWq1,comment-id=000500010002,timestamp=2018-08-06T19:27:41.306+0000) > > To be honest,how does old Syndra not feel evil to you? > > She murdered her mentor in the old lore as well,granted in the old lore he threatened to seal her power permanently,but given what she did next it felt like he was justified in his threat and at the end she sets out to destroy the "weak and foolish leaders of ionia and anyone else who would dare to shackle her greatness." even though the only one who tried to shackle her was her old master. > > Not to mention her voicelines like "Run, playthings." "A whole world to toy with." Piggybacking on my previous post, if you look at Syndra's old character, she was betrayed by everyone around her to the point of breaking, and with a final threat of having her gift sealed, she snapped. Just like in the new background, but without the petulance of a child who is being bullied. Instead, it is with somebody threatening to imprison her powers within her own body, she would be helpless then. Her griped with Ionia is that of how the elders ran the state (at least in the old lore) The center path, balance and harmony, restraining powers and growth so that everything stays in equilibrium. The exact culture of Ionia, is what made Syndra's mentor to suppress her powers, thinking he could teach her control while keeping her powers under his control, until she was mentally mature enough to use them without excess. As to her quotes, think of the joy and elation she must felt finally breaking her chains, of which she didn't even know she was a victim of until recently. She is jubilant in her freedom, free to do what she wants, and she KNOWS she is powerful enough to do it. She never achieved that mental maturity while she studied with her mentor, so she regressed after she killed him, to a child learning to ride a bike for the first time.
: How's her lore even significantly different. I agree with you that sometimes the player facing material doesn't give us enough to come to the same conclusions as riot always expects us to, but I don't get it with syndra specifically. She's still the dark mage who decided her craving for power was, like, totally fine, and people should prob not get in the way of that. And she still flies around in a castle after murdering her master.
> [{quoted}](name=EROTIC RAID BOSS,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R5N1EWq1,comment-id=000500010001,timestamp=2018-08-06T17:11:17.498+0000) > > How's her lore even significantly different. I agree with you that sometimes the player facing material doesn't give us enough to come to the same conclusions as riot always expects us to, but I don't get it with syndra specifically. > > She's still the dark mage who decided her craving for power was, like, totally fine, and people should prob not get in the way of that. And she still flies around in a castle after murdering her master. Let's start with the original bio linked in full so its visible at least somewhere in this thread >Born with immense magical potential, Syndra loves nothing more than exercising the incredible power at her command. With each passing day, her mastery of magical force grows more potent and devastating. Refusing any notion of balance or restraint, Syndra wants only to retain control of her power, even if it means annihilating the authorities that seek to stop her. >Throughout her youth in Ionia, Syndra's reckless use of magic terrified the elders of her village. They took her to a remote temple, leaving her in the care of an old mage. To Syndra's delight, the mage explained that the temple was a school - a place where she could develop her talents under his guidance. Though she learned much during her time there, Syndra no longer felt her power growing as it had in her youth. Her frustration grew, and she finally confronted her mentor, demanding an explanation. He revealed that he had dampened Syndra's magic, hoping to help her learn control and restraint. Accusing him of betrayal, she advanced on the mage, commanding him to lift the spell that was holding her back. He backed away, telling her that if she couldn't control herself, he would be forced to nullify Syndra's magic completely. Furious, she summoned her power and dashed the old man against the walls. With her mentor dead, Syndra felt the rush of her unbounded potential for the first time in years. Though she had won her freedom, she refused to return to the society that had tried to steal her gift. Instead, Syndra decided to claim her former prison as a stronghold. Pushing the boundaries of her magic, she tore the structure from its foundations and raised it into the sky. Free to delve further into her art, Syndra now aims to grow powerful enough to destroy the weak, foolish leaders of Ionia - and anyone else who would dare to shackle her greatness. Intrinsically, I think we see a shift in Syndra's source of power (her emotions). Previously her power was innate, and she was born into this power, not necessarily stumbling into it from an emotional outburst. Think like the baby in The Incredibles, born with immense power, discovering it and the joy of each passing day finding out how vast their powers are. THAT was our previous Syndra, now she is a bundle of raging hormones and emotions, almost as if she never grew to be an adult, lashing out at people with anger and vitriol. Previously, Syndra's lashing out was only at an incredible betrayal. Betrayed by her village elders, betrayed by the only person who seemingly understood and was "helping" her with her gift, she lashed out in one singular fit of rage, killing somebody who not only betrayed her, but threatened to take away the one thing that makes her special. On a side note, she ripped an entire temple from the ground in the old lore, in the new one it was but a mere tower (think princess locked in a tower trope, doesn't really fit with her character even if this wasn't an intended trope) But these are just the most glaring changes to her character. I agree, for the most part she is the same, but there were a lot of liberties taken to flesh out details that, granted, needed to be fleshed out, but it felt like it was done in a manner that did not really do a good job of exploring who we, the audience, already know Syndra to be.
: This is apparently a common misconception. We even reworded the bio to make it clearer, based on concerns that were voiced to the writer by (a VERY SMALL number of) players when the draft story was leaked... Syndra is not "stealing" magic. She is not pulling magic from other people, or the land, to fuel herself. The difference is in he term _leach_ (which is used in the lore) and _leech_ (which is not). They are very different in meaning. Her power is unique. It comes from within her. She doesn't fully understand it, because no one ever taught her how it works... but it seems to get stronger when she is in a "negative" state of mind. And when it is at its strongest, and she uses it and walks away, the residual effects on the magic of the land around her are quite disturbing. Without understanding how or why, she is creating "magical fallout" that permanently (?) sours the spiritual energies of the environment nearby. This is why, presumably, the Spirit of Ionia itself seems to have tried to imprison her. IMO, Syndra is now a character with a thematic conflict, where before she was rather lacking. She is a personification of not being aware of the consequences of your own actions, but also of the dangers of marginalising people who don't fit into the dominant worldview - can you imagine if she'd been born in Noxus with this power? They would have been very impressed, and nurtured and trained her, and let her loose on the front lines at the first opportunity. She's not evil. She was just dealt a difficult hand of cards, in the grand scheme of things.
> [{quoted}](name=Scathlocke,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=R5N1EWq1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-06T16:49:43.692+0000) > > This is apparently a common misconception. We even reworded the bio to make it clearer, based on concerns that were voiced to the writer by (a VERY SMALL number of) players when the draft story was leaked... > > Syndra is not "stealing" magic. She is not pulling magic from other people, or the land, to fuel herself. The difference is in he term _leach_ (which is used in the lore) and _leech_ (which is not). They are very different in meaning. > > Her power is unique. It comes from within her. She doesn't fully understand it, because no one ever taught her how it works... but it seems to get stronger when she is in a "negative" state of mind. And when it is at its strongest, and she uses it and walks away, the residual effects on the magic of the land around her are quite disturbing. Without understanding how or why, she is creating "magical fallout" that permanently (?) sours the spiritual energies of the environment nearby. This is why, presumably, the Spirit of Ionia itself seems to have tried to imprison her. > > IMO, Syndra is now a character with a thematic conflict, where before she was rather lacking. She is a personification of not being aware of the consequences of your own actions, but also of the dangers of marginalising people who don't fit into the dominant worldview - can you imagine if she'd been born in Noxus with this power? They would have been very impressed, and nurtured and trained her, and let her loose on the front lines at the first opportunity. > > She's not evil. She was just dealt a difficult hand of cards, in the grand scheme of things. So, Scathelocke you and other writerw might have access to significantly more material which was used to flesh out the character that is Syndra and where she has been, where she is, and where she is going. You have to look at this from a player-facing view. The lore as released, honestly doesn't feel like the same Syndra that I had envisisioned from her previous story. I will be happy to come back to this thread after work and explain some of those reasonings, but if this is all players get to see of a character some of us love I am really disappointed with some major shifts in her back story. Knowing the cadence you guys take with releasing new material further fleshing out characters, there is no guarantee that there will be more released anytime soon that might better enlighten us to Syndra's character. So all we have as players, is what you have shown us, not the other stories written but not published that might better explain all the problems, speaking for myself, that I truly have with this redesigned story. Honestly though, try and look at this with some ignorance to all the extra information you have here that we don't.
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: AP Itemization on PBE (8.4)
Is it just me or do the AP changes, even considering the "buff" to Rabadon's, seem to be a wash? Actually, can somebody do the math quickly adding/subtracting the changed items and the Rabadon's buff. I feel like it is overall a neutral gain for AP users across the board assuming they buy hat, and a net loss if they don't.
: > [{quoted}](name=Storn Saroe,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=lKR0ehmM,comment-id=002a0013,timestamp=2016-12-09T02:23:14.401+0000) > > I definitely agree with the reasoning behind a lot of these changes and although I'd prefer just changing her idle I realise that is not something you are keen to do. > > In short I did not like the execution of the changes, the purple hair was off and adding tights whilst keeping the thigh high stockings just looks weird. The skirt + stance combination is still an issue so I thought I'd try put forward some potential suggestions to fix it and appease both camps. > > [Here](http://s44.photobucket.com/user/StornSaroe/media/CzIF-0tVQAA28dI_zpspsbbohga.png.html?sort=3&o=0) is an illustration of the proposed changes. > > Firstly change the hair from purple back to pink but make it darker to avoid the earlier problems. Remove the tights and instead add shorts under the skirt so it is more practical and less awkward (ideally I would have removed the front half of the skirt made the shorts more visible and leave it as more of a short trail although I do not know if this is achievable in the timeframe). I have kept the darkened colours and the reduced bust although I readded some of the removed textures so she doesn't look quite so flat. I suck at wording here, and wanted to clarify that **she's just wearing tights now**, and I think keeping the thigh design is throwing people off. We've seen several player paintovers and have been looking through them. We don't have concrete plans to make huge changes to her, but as always, we're having discussions around them. Changing her skirt to shorts isn't within the time frame, due to her needing modeling adjustments. We're looking at texture changes at this point, in terms of what's doable.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=lKR0ehmM,comment-id=002a00130000,timestamp=2016-12-09T18:03:50.324+0000) > Changing her skirt to shorts isn't within the time frame, due to her needing modeling adjustments. We're looking at texture changes at this point, in terms of what's doable. Out of curiosity, we are currently in December. The Heartseeker skins are a February thing, sure I get it doesn't NEED to be tied to that month, but why not pull it from PBE, iterate on much-needed changes that are not within a reasonable timeframe for PBE cycles, and come back with a better product? You've done it in the past, with many, MANY skins. I think hiding behind the time-constrained cycle of the PBE is really just a strawman. I don't want to accuse you guys of being lazy on this.... But just pull it and take your time.
Jaredan (NA)
: Partly that yeah. Oh, by the way... http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/ if you want to see what a bunch of fine folks have been working on. We've listened, and we're working to get there.
> [{quoted}](name=Jaredan,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cixu3Wls,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T21:09:21.731+0000) > > Partly that yeah. Oh, by the way... http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/ if you want to see what a bunch of fine folks have been working on. > > We've listened, and we're working to get there. Jaredan welcome back from your brief hiatus. Hopefully you are rested and feeling an improved sense of health. (How are you recovering from the past few years, I know it has been a struggle and up-hill battle, but keep at it and take the breaks you need, no point in working yourself back to being bed-ridden) I'm happy this has finally bubbled to the surface, this has been a long time coming, and if we are being honest with each other it should have been planned and in production shortly after the retcon. If you get a chance, now that your back and since there has been so much radio silence, would you perhaps be willing to pick a time/date that you could create a thread and block off some time to hit the pavement so to speak with questions? I am sure a lot of us want to talk about cadence, direction of lore, and outstanding pain-points that still need addressing (Short-form bios being on that page is an easy one that I can throw out there as bait, Tahm Kench style.) Seriously though, welcome back it is good to see you again. Let's talk, but let's do it in the right setting with the right expectations. AKA: Jaredan, no more 4 AM threads while you should be resting! Block some time at work if you can, I know you've got a million threads of things going onto at once, but one community thread certainly won't break the bank right?
MLDzXnRRR (EUNE)
: So u want to play a 4v5? Go play bots.
> [{quoted}](name=MLDzXnRRR,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3fvyUEh4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-13T06:51:51.890+0000) > > So u want to play a 4v5? > Go play bots. Not in the slightest, the fact is the person who gave FB decided to AFK, so they could abuse the remake systems, is what I am commenting on. I have no qualms with this as an actual mechanic implemented to help AFKs from the start of a game, but leaverbuster is not enough of a punishment for people to cheat the systems and use /remake as a tool to undo a bad level 1 invade.
Rioter Comments
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team: 6.17, the Pre-Worlds Patch
Why is Lissandra getting nerfed? Who thinks her power is out of line?
Reav3 (NA)
: He is a candidate. I will say that if we do work on Fizz, weather it's small or large changes a big goal would be to de-value tank builds.
> [{quoted}](name=Reav3,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Tnfw1WW6,comment-id=003c000000040000000200000000000000010001,timestamp=2016-07-11T16:26:26.518+0000) > > He is a candidate. I will say that if we do work on Fizz, weather it's small or large changes a big goal would be to de-value tank builds. It might also be helpful to give him an actual trade-off with his mobility. He seems to suffer from an outdated design where mobility was not designed within a power budget (simply because mobility wasn't being valued properly.) Though, I suppose that most of the potential candidates need to have their mobility actually budgeted in their kit. How do you feel about their mobility and it's balancing levers for these champions?
: What are your thoughts on Syrian / Islamic Refugees?
This conversation is fucking stupid. The first link equates the data (done on sexual harassment) to sexual assault statisics (which it clearly isn't talking about) while the second link is just an OP-ED. Move on people start a flame-baiting war on some real statistics.
: Hey MuyAstuto! A decent number of players share your opinion, for sure. We were pretty confident that the people who just want solo/duo queue back wouldn't be overly hyped about the emblems. It's not exactly the same thing, right? The thing is, everything we're seeing tells us although some people are super mad that there's no solo queue (we read the threads after all), the game overall is still better if we let people group up in ranked. We did surveys asking players "do you like the ability to queue with any number of people in ranked" and in most regions the majority of players (over 70%) said yes, they do. ~10% didn't care, another ~7.5% sort of didn't like it, and the rest (something like ~7.5%) of players REALLY didn't like it. Those are rough numbers, but they're all pretty close. Someone on the dynamic queue team will probably come throw something at me if I'm off by a point or two. I have a solid guess about which group you fall into, and I actually feel where you're coming from. If I had to place myself in one of the groups, I'd probably land closer to the ~7.5% who feels like dynamic queue is slightly worse than solo/duo. But that's mainly because I don't like queueing up with more than one person, and I dislike being expected to put my rank on the line to play with a big group of friends who might be feeders (genuine apologies to my coworkers, I love you guys lmao). Most players who are really vocally against dynamic queue feel like it takes away from the meaning of their rank (since people could theoretically get a ranked boost from their smurfing friends). But the truth is that dynamic queue is working for most people, and we generally like it. It could use some improvements, but we think we're gonna get there. If emblems aren't making solo players feel satisfied, we'll keep coming up with other ways for people to express individual skill (spitballing here, but what if we showed you your rank on every champion? Like "you're the #3 Singed player in EUW" sort of stuff?). There's a lot of ideas we have, but we just wanted to try out this emblems thing first as a step in the right direction. Hope that addresses some of your concerns. We do wanna hear from you guys and adjust as we go. The changes we're pushing out now are just one step on the way.
> [{quoted}](name=Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=GaK3v9QJ,comment-id=0009000a,timestamp=2016-06-17T23:55:19.635+0000) > > Hey MuyAstuto! A decent number of players share your opinion, for sure. We were pretty confident that the people who just want solo/duo queue back wouldn't be overly hyped about the emblems. It's not exactly the same thing, right? > > The thing is, everything we're seeing tells us although some people are super mad that there's no solo queue (we read the threads after all), the game overall is still better if we let people group up in ranked. We did surveys asking players "do you like the ability to queue with any number of people in ranked" and in most regions the majority of players (over 70%) said yes, they do. ~10% didn't care, another ~7.5% sort of didn't like it, and the rest (something like ~7.5%) of players REALLY didn't like it. Those are rough numbers, but they're all pretty close. Someone on the dynamic queue team will probably come throw something at me if I'm off by a point or two. > > I have a solid guess about which group you fall into, and I actually feel where you're coming from. If I had to place myself in one of the groups, I'd probably land closer to the ~7.5% who feels like dynamic queue is slightly worse than solo/duo. But that's mainly because I don't like queueing up with more than one person, and I dislike being expected to put my rank on the line to play with a big group of friends who might be feeders (genuine apologies to my coworkers, I love you guys lmao). > > Most players who are really vocally against dynamic queue feel like it takes away from the meaning of their rank (since people could theoretically get a ranked boost from their smurfing friends). But the truth is that dynamic queue is working for most people, and we generally like it. It could use some improvements, but we think we're gonna get there. > > If emblems aren't making solo players feel satisfied, we'll keep coming up with other ways for people to express individual skill (spitballing here, but what if we showed you your rank on every champion? Like "you're the #3 Singed player in EUW" sort of stuff?). There's a lot of ideas we have, but we just wanted to try out this emblems thing first as a step in the right direction. > > Hope that addresses some of your concerns. We do wanna hear from you guys and adjust as we go. The changes we're pushing out now are just one step on the way. Fundamentally it isn't fixing the problem, and never will. SoloQ players care less about the reward for SoloQ and more about the challenge/type of game one would expect from 2 teams of fully random people. You can spitball all you want, and I'm happy you are at least engaging (it is more than most Rioters are willing to do on this topic...) but you're department has nothing to do with the decisions being made. Have somebody release those statistics, from the number of people surveyed to their rank to what they spent more time playing prior to Dynamic Q (norms, ranked, team ranked, etc.) I'd bet that if all those details were released, that argument would be torn to shreds in an instant. Statistics need controlled variables, and I bet the ones you've cited are poorly controlled.
: Rethinking Ranked Fives and Tuning Dynamic Queue
This is a wasted effort to "alleviate the lack of 'Recognition for skilled solo play in dynamic queue.'" You guys are wasting time and assets by doing this. You guys seem to not understand the underlying cause of the frustration. Icons, essentially, that is your plan? I don't know what kind of focus-testing or surveys you did that made this seem like a good idea (you should show us that information ya know, because I bet a large group of people don't believe you even tried to figure out what would appease SoloQ players) but this idea not only falls MASSIVELY short, but regardless of whatever "future steps" you guys plan on taking, neither the rate in which you push them to live nor the underlying reasons for doing so will ever be good enough. I'm sorry but you guys need to get back to your roots as a company. Interact with your players and really get to understand the problems you're currently trying to fix in a birdshot fashion. As a company I expect better of Riot, but I am currently left in a perpetual state of disappointment with how it has been handled, is being handled, and seems will be handled in the future.
: His nerf was not a buff. His winrate went down. Personally I think the Zed thing comes from being strong for a while and people being overall slow to adapt. If I had to guess I would expect his ~~winrate ~~ banrate to drop gradually over the next few patches as people figure out that he is no longer ban worthy. Although that is just my opinion and we will see what happens. > He just ults you and there is nothing you can do. You either die or he blinks back and he is safe. This statement really bothers me because it is very hyperbolic and just untrue. It distorts the argument in a way that doesn't fuel good discussion but shows a hatred for a single champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-14T20:00:52.656+0000) > > His nerf was not a buff. His winrate went down. > > Personally I think the Zed thing comes from being strong for a while and people being overall slow to adapt. If I had to guess I would expect his winrate to drop gradually over the next few patches as people figure out that he is no longer ban worthy. Although that is just my opinion and we will see what happens. > > This statement really bothers me because it is very hyperbolic and just untrue. It distorts the argument in a way that doesn't fuel good discussion but shows a hatred for a single champion. All feedback is good feedback. And emotional feedback is very good at helping to flag what champions need reworks. If a champion (such as Zed) on paper and in testing labs sucks: his winrate is garbage and is borderline Urgot tier, then what you've discovered is that it is the kit that is the balancing problem. Look, arguing with people saying "your feelings on this champion are wrong, he is actually bad" is never going to work, and you just paint yourself as somebody in the realm of "I am a game designer, and thus I know better than you." And nobody wants you to do that. Firstly, we know that's not what you mean. But secondly and mainly, it is just as non-helpful to the conversation as the people you're arguing with. Just because you say Zed is weak and people are wrong to think he is banworthy, does not contribute to solving the problem of the differential between perceived strength and actual strength. All you're doing with those statements is fanning an anti-riot sentiment where people believe there to be some "We know better than the players" mindset. It doesn't help the conversation and I think you can do better.
: 1) She seems to be doing okay actually. People have been adapting well and seem to still be finding success with her. 2) Zed has the 7th lowest winrates for any midlane champion([Champion.gg](http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=ascend&roleSort=Middle)) ) and also had one of his core items hit this patch. The whole favoritism argument is just untrue. 3) So I'd be curious what your actual reasoning is here other than feeling. AP itemization has felt pretty decent in my experience. Also with blue buff and infernal dragon giving large +% AP, I've been reaching very high amounts of AP. So if you have anything in particular that you wanted to chat about, I'd be happy to discuss in greater detail.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=eEMPw1MZ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-06-14T19:30:07.735+0000) > > 3) So I'd be curious what your actual reasoning is here other than feeling. AP itemization has felt pretty decent in my experience. Also with blue buff and infernal dragon giving large +% AP, I've been reaching very high amounts of AP. So if you have anything in particular that you wanted to chat about, I'd be happy to discuss in greater detail. I think I can elaborate on this one. I play almost exclusively mages in mid, and have been around since Fizz's release (god those days were awful). Never before have I felt this "forced" into linear build paths as a mage before. The first few items most mages are forced to build are Catalyst, Tear, Seeker's, Lost Chapter, or Negatron Cloak. Out of these items, 2 of the give AP. And out of the items they build into, few of them give over 60 AP when completed. Sure between Elder Dragon/other things, overall AP MIGHT (rng on dragons is not something I particularly feel is fun...) be higher at full builds, but prior to that at almost all stages it feels like mages do less damage. CDR itemization really just kind of hides this problem. Because every item (not really) has CDR you can throw spells more, but to throw more spells you need mana. But to get mana you need to give up on higher AP items.... So it's kinda a vicious cycle in midlane where nobody ever really feels good about anything they're building. Seeker's armguard is pretty much obsolete when your opponent gets serrated, and the double tap nerf to Zhonya's feels especially bad. Across the board, you're right. AP is probably technically higher at full build. But I bet (and you can look at numbers that we cannot) that until roughly level 14+, at all stages of the game, AP is lower across the board. (meanwhile the only champions that have had changes to their ratios to compensate for all these item changes were mages who got updated.... meanwhile the rest of the cast sits on S1-5 ratios.)
: Dynamic Queue - Updates
Did... did you post in GD just so the thread couldn't be downvoted?
: It’s your turn to Ask Riot
Why did you guys decide not to do a Super Galaxy Rumble Icon, but the Luchador skins have a legacy icon made for Braum? Seems a bit inconsistent, just curious as to the thoughts behind it.
: GAMEBREAKING BUG!! - Can't Move Camera (includes video)
So I've had a similar issue but perhaps my circumstances are different. I play on Windowed Bordered, and sometimes if i click off of league, it will auto-lock the camera (even if the option is not toggled) The way I've found to fix this, and who knows maybe you'll have some luck with this, is as follows: Hold Left Click on the minimap and scroll around the map briefly. Then hit space. You will be auto-locked on your champion again. Repeat the first step, and your camera will be no longer locked. It works for me, hopefully it will help you too.
: Rek'Sai inhabits "The Sai" it is a particularly harsh desert of loose broken rock but it doesn't even cover a 1/8 of Shurima. The Sai is one of the largest deserts but it's bordered by several other deserts and dried lakes.
> [{quoted}](name=WAAARGHbobo,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OjpEJdPn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-05-03T19:16:14.897+0000) > > Rek'Sai inhabits "The Sai" it is a particularly harsh desert of loose broken rock but it doesn't even cover a 1/8 of Shurima. The Sai is one of the largest deserts but it's bordered by several other deserts and dried lakes. Care if I pick your brain quickly then? (because my largest joy in writing is world-building) If it barely covers a tiny sliver of Shurima, wouldn't that kinda defeat the "fear" of Rek'sai altogether for the people of Shurima? If they know that she only ranges the Sai, and that entering it is near-certain death, wouldn't the argument be made that they're never going out of their way to avoid it? Put another way; doesn't it weaken Rek'sai's backstory/fear if she has only a tiny sliver of Shurima to stalk underneath the sands?
Meddler (NA)
: Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions. They should certainly be part of the conversation though, particularly when broken down into more applicable stats (e.g. win rate for experienced players over sufficient patches to generate a large sample size). With that out of the way we do think Zed's too strong at present. The things we're currently looking at as problems to address are his damage early and insufficient windows when W is down for his opponents to play around. Possible solutions there right now look like lower Q damage below rank 5 (55-235 instead of 75-235?) and higher W CD below rank 5 (22-14 instead of 18-14?).
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsFkRcjW,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2016-03-19T20:08:56.583+0000) > > Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions. They should certainly be part of the conversation though, particularly when broken down into more applicable stats (e.g. win rate for experienced players over sufficient patches to generate a large sample size). > > With that out of the way we do think Zed's too strong at present. The things we're currently looking at as problems to address are his damage early and insufficient windows when W is down for his opponents to play around. Possible solutions there right now look like lower Q damage below rank 5 (55-235 instead of 75-235?) and higher W CD below rank 5 (22-14 instead of 18-14?). Meddler don't you think it might be finally time to hit him more than just base damages ratios and CDs? He has one of the most versatile assassin build paths, great fallback patterns, low risk with double blinks, top tier damage, and is a champion that basically says "build zhonya's or die, and if you build zhonya's i will wander and feed that way. Seems like it might be time to talk about his shadow blinking on his ult...
: Between Two Turrets - Come chat with WookieeCookie! [COMPLETE]
Do you feel bad about some of the conversations you've gotten involved in with the community, or some of the things you've said to the community over the years? Some among the frequent forum-goers might see your name pop up in response to threads from time to time and immediately have the reaction of "Oh boy, what is it now."
: Between Two Turrets - Come chat with Jaredan! [COMPLETE]
Jaredan, hopefully a familiar face will make this a tad less daunting. I'm going to throw up a few questions and feel free to answer what you can/want to. Welcome back man, we're glad your health is better. 1. Can we have an honest discussion about the cadence of lore releases, and the forced-pairing that happens when product teams get involved that push certain pieces of lore off to a later date so as to make a thematic event? Cadence is slow. Painfully. You and I have both discussed this indepth, but perhaps it might be worth a moment of your time to explain the pain points with cadence to a greater audience. 2. Updated bios for champs where? Seriously though, we're now rapidly approaching 2 years since the retcon, and although Shurima (a failure if we're honest), Bilgewater (a step in the right direction), and this past year's Harrowing (a botch on skins which overshadowed the success of the event narrative-ly speaking) are significant events, we still don't have updated lore for champions like Fiddlesticks, Jax, Lee Sin, Nocturne, Morgana, Kayle, etc. etc. Champions intrinsically linked to the IoW who LITERALLY HAVE NO REASON FOR BEING IN THE GAME. Doesn't it seem a bit odd, that we're focusing on champions like MF, GP, Olaf, Graves etc. when the aforementioned champions are out of the game entirely from a narrative standpoint? 3. To shed some light on the previous questions, are you willing to discuss the size of the narrative department, to help the players get an understanding of how tight narrative schedules are? 4. How are you? 5. Why should players trust Narrative to put out a good product when things such as the Freljord event, Shurima, the Retcon, and miscellaneous reworks have done much damage to player perception? Players who loved Trundle as he used to be, might not ever trust somebody with the Narrative tag in their name, but what do you guys have to say for the mistakes that have been made, or assurances that they will not be repeated in the future. 6. What are your current thoughts on the structure at Riot as far as producing quality Narrative content is concerned? Do you believe you guys are leading the industry, or is there systematic structural flaws that make your jobs particularly difficult when compared to other departments, like QA or Gameplay/Balance? Seriously, glad to have you around. I hope you're ready for a long night, because there are going to be a lot.... and I mean a LOT of lore questions today.
: We do read the feedback, however, not every suggestion will be made. Speaking on skins specifically, we often get suggestions that are out of the scope for the skin, or something we aren't able to accomodate, such as voice processing, or a new animation.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=zcPYlUsN,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-11T02:10:45.194+0000) > > We do read the feedback, however, not every suggestion will be made. Speaking on skins specifically, we often get suggestions that are out of the scope for the skin, or something we aren't able to accomodate, such as voice processing, or a new animation. Then shouldn't content be delayed or more time given to it for "Post-PBE feedback"? It seems kinda... well honestly, dumb, to push content out the door to "test and gather feedback" and not have the resources available to act on said feedback. Why not hold onto VFX/Voices/Sound/Art resources for a week after content is pushed to PBE. Sure, the pipeline will slow a bit, but it is for a very VERY good reason.
: As the person who made the call to seriously shorten (divided by 4, if memory serves) Azir soldiers' lifetime under tower, I'm not sure Zed shadow should get a similar treatment. Azir can easily get a 100% uptime on his soldiers, meaning he can make the tower not a safe zone for you at all. If we changed nothing about this behavior, Azir would push you in and then force you to back off behind your tower, outside of CS range. We tested this. It was not fun. Zed, by contrast, already has windows around his shadows. I feel it's okay to violate a core gameplay rule like "towers are safe zones" for short windows, but not permanently. If anything, my Azir mechanic brought him closer to Zed. As for distance, the same thing applies. Azir can always have a soldier or two out, and he can move them around as well. It becomes very easy for him to be a screen or two away from his soldiers. At this point even if the soldiers aren't active, they still represent a gameplay element the enemy has to pay attention to (because they COULD become active again at any moment). At some point you have to cut off how much of an attention drain you can be on the enemy. Again, Zed's shadows are windowed plus they can't move and Zed's mobility is intimately tied to them (so he can't move away from them). As a result, Zed doesn't really get to go super far from his shadows. I would also say that the coolest Zed plays I've seen were made possible by the Zed player displaying an astonishing spatial awareness for where his shadows were and what was going on around them. I think that's the kind of play we should reward. I think 4s of uptime every 18-14s can't really qualify as zoning, especially since putting his shadow out into an aggressive position means Zed gives up his escape. You're not wrong: playing against a good Zed is super frustrating, but that's the nature of assassins. As long as we communicate their windows of weakness clearly enough, your play should be to pounce on him when he's weak (i.e. when he's wasted his W looking for poke).
> [{quoted}](name=ZenonTheStoic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HA8uvHxT,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-02-08T22:37:31.255+0000) > > As the person who made the call to seriously shorten (divided by 4, if memory serves) Azir soldiers' lifetime under tower, I'm not sure Zed shadow should get a similar treatment. > > Azir can easily get a 100% uptime on his soldiers, meaning he can make the tower not a safe zone for you at all. If we changed nothing about this behavior, Azir would push you in and then force you to back off behind your tower, outside of CS range. We tested this. It was not fun. Zed, by contrast, already has windows around his shadows. I feel it's okay to violate a core gameplay rule like "towers are safe zones" for short windows, but not permanently. If anything, my Azir mechanic brought him closer to Zed. > > As for distance, the same thing applies. Azir can always have a soldier or two out, and he can move them around as well. It becomes very easy for him to be a screen or two away from his soldiers. At this point even if the soldiers aren't active, they still represent a gameplay element the enemy has to pay attention to (because they COULD become active again at any moment). At some point you have to cut off how much of an attention drain you can be on the enemy. Again, Zed's shadows are windowed plus they can't move and Zed's mobility is intimately tied to them (so he can't move away from them). As a result, Zed doesn't really get to go super far from his shadows. I would also say that the coolest Zed plays I've seen were made possible by the Zed player displaying an astonishing spatial awareness for where his shadows were and what was going on around them. I think that's the kind of play we should reward. > > I think 4s of uptime every 18-14s can't really qualify as zoning, especially since putting his shadow out into an aggressive position means Zed gives up his escape. You're not wrong: playing against a good Zed is super frustrating, but that's the nature of assassins. As long as we communicate their windows of weakness clearly enough, your play should be to pounce on him when he's weak (i.e. when he's wasted his W looking for poke). But that is suggesting that Zed has "windows of weakness" when in reality, he is a split-pushing, ranged farming, all-in assassin, with potentially 3 instant blinks, and no need to actually stick on an enemy and "kill" them, because once they're marked by the ult and enough damage is done, you can walk away and forget in many circumstances. Oh, did i mention he makes use of lifesteal, and Energy, and has good ratios, and has been in a state of always on the strong side since nearly release? All that being said, Zed has massive strengths and there is little opportunity to outplay him. He has a similar problem as Yasuo, even if you play perfectly, he has so few weaknesses that you very well may not be able to do anything about him anyways, even if you do buy items like Zhonya's or QSS (but hasn't Riot been in the mindset for many seasons at this point that counterplay should be on an individual skill level, not a stat/item check?) This may not be the best way to curb some of Zed's strengths (which should be weaknesses) but I think it is highly inappropriate to consider Zed as a champion with "windows of weakness"
: Would you say Annie's Game Health is kind of lacking right now? Passive: Out of all other "Guaranteed stuns" No other champion is allowed to hold on to them for an infinite duration. Especially when it's on a short cooldown (TF Gold Card immediately comes to mind) Annie's Passive has infinite hold duration, offering her incredibly potent zoning power while not needing to worry if she uses it because she can build it up so quickly Ult: Her Ult has the same bug/issue as Darius's old Pull does. Even if you manage to flash the AoE before Tibbers drops, you still get stunned because it checks for people in the zone at the beginning of the cast time, not the end, so despite having a .35 second cast time, You still get stunned if you flash it. This means that the counterplay to Annie early, (Flashing as she flashes) doesn't work. This makes Annie's level 6 zoning INCREDIBLY potent. The solutions to these issues are incredibly simple. Passive: make it last 6/8/10 seconds before expiring (increases at 7/13) so that annie can't just zone infinitely with it, and make it so that her E doesn't build stacks. Ult: Give tibbers a range based delay (Like Soraka Q) and make the passive/stun apply at landing, not at cast. If this change means you need to buff tibbers in some way, then go for it. Overall, Annie's in a pretty solid spot, feeling unique and powerful, but because of her Passive's potency and her Ult's sheer power, she's kind of unhealthy as a champion. This is evidenced by her outrageous common choice as a support.
> [{quoted}](name=CrazedPorcupine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jknzXZlM,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2016-01-28T06:39:03.755+0000) > > Would you say Annie's Game Health is kind of lacking right now? > > Passive: Out of all other "Guaranteed stuns" No other champion is allowed to hold on to them for an infinite duration. Especially when it's on a short cooldown (TF Gold Card immediately comes to mind) Annie's Passive has infinite hold duration, offering her incredibly potent zoning power while not needing to worry if she uses it because she can build it up so quickly > > Ult: Her Ult has the same bug/issue as Darius's old Pull does. Even if you manage to flash the AoE before Tibbers drops, you still get stunned because it checks for people in the zone at the beginning of the cast time, not the end, so despite having a .35 second cast time, You still get stunned if you flash it. This means that the counterplay to Annie early, (Flashing as she flashes) doesn't work. This makes Annie's level 6 zoning INCREDIBLY potent. > > The solutions to these issues are incredibly simple. > Passive: make it last 6/8/10 seconds before expiring (increases at 7/13) so that annie can't just zone infinitely with it, and make it so that her E doesn't build stacks. > > Ult: Give tibbers a range based delay (Like Soraka Q) and make the passive/stun apply at landing, not at cast. If this change means you need to buff tibbers in some way, then go for it. > > Overall, Annie's in a pretty solid spot, feeling unique and powerful, but because of her Passive's potency and her Ult's sheer power, she's kind of unhealthy as a champion. This is evidenced by her outrageous common choice as a support. If you've read any other "Annie is OP, nerf her" thread in the past year, you'll understand that TF's Gold Card =/= Annie's passive. TF can cast other spells while holding GC, Annie cannot. TF only has to use one spell to get GC, Annie has to use multiple (Mana, CDR, and "Whiffing" implications in this), TF only needs one. TF has a near-global ult that can get him just about anywhere in 2 seconds, AND a point-and-click stun, Annie has flash. Annie is good at zoning, this is true. But there are a dozen things you can do to either force her out of her zoning pattern, or to force her to use her passive in non-ideal circumstances. Almost every champion can push a wave faster than Annie. Annie's incredibly awful AA animation makes CSing under turret difficult at best. A jungle gank is incredibly strong against Annie. In most circumstances Annie will not hit 2 people with her ult when being ganked. This gives her 1 opportunity to delete a champion, and if it fails she no longer has anything to play defensive around beyond her flash. And if Annie's passive were on a "Max hold time" system, she would be given more power to compensate for a drastically heavy nerf. Do you want Annie to have more damage? How about utility in the form of mobility? None of these things, which are the only levers for Annie considering her dated kit, are viable to make her into a healthy champ. It is rework or bust, even if it seems like on paper just giving her passive a hold time would be sufficient, it isn't.
: > I mean, that is cherry-picking the causal link a bit don't you think? You could look at that same set of information, and say "Well, Deadman's Plate is filling it's core identity, but Sunfire Cape and Randuin's Omen obviously aren't if people are foregoing those items and getting Deadman's instead." Yes and no. If we're just looking at these three items in a vacuum, then yes, we could fix the problem by buffing the other two until they're used. Those plays would likely come at the expense of everything that isn't one of those three items, however (not just other armor items like {{item:3110}} but all other defense items to a significant extent - health stacking effectively neutralizes a lot of AP champs, after all). And the net result would be a pretty substantial increase in power for many users of those items, particularly users which are already building Dead Man's plus one of the others, which is simply not warranted right now. I do agree that the others warrant a look and likely need to increase in power, but the gap is larger than I can realistically close just with buffs.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=fWOVQoin,comment-id=000600000000000000010001,timestamp=2016-01-26T04:01:19.207+0000) > > Yes and no. If we're just looking at these three items in a vacuum, then yes, we could fix the problem by buffing the other two until they're used. Those plays would likely come at the expense of everything that isn't one of those three items, however (not just other armor items like {{item:3110}} but all other defense items to a significant extent - health stacking effectively neutralizes a lot of AP champs, after all). And the net result would be a pretty substantial increase in power for many users of those items, particularly users which are already building Dead Man's plus one of the others, which is simply not warranted right now. > > I do agree that the others warrant a look and likely need to increase in power, but the gap is larger than I can realistically close just with buffs. Granted, I don't make any claims to having a great sense of game design. You significantly dwarf my expertise on the subject, but I still think that it is worth noting that if you agree that Sunfire/Randuin's both need a pass-over, but you believe that Deadman's is too strong, isn't Riot's approach to do one set of changes at a time, let data from live roll in (because PBE is inadequate) and then follow up again if necessary? This is why people got upset with the Sejuani nerfs, because they were delivered hand-in-hand with Cinderhaulk nerfs, so she got the double nerf bat. I think it might be prudent to make one set of changes first, let the dust settle, and then use the "new environment" where Randuin's and Sunfire are in a better state to make the decision about how much/if to nerf Deadman's. People pick Deadman's because it has reliable utility, and is a nice statball. Randuin's has "unreliable" utility, as does Frozen Heart (Aura ranges, activatable, stats are basically "negating stats" which work to whittle down your opponent's strengths) where Deadman's is just a set of positive stats (MS, AR, Health, all of which positively impact you 100% of the time). If you increase reliability (f the intended goals of FZ, and Randuin's specifically) you should be able to increase their power but not in a way that invalidates mages (agreed, health stacking wrecks mages). Potentially, buffs to the aura's or "bonus effects" of Randuin's, FZ, (and a flat-out re-imagining of Sunfire) seem like a much healthier way to balance Deadman's. I'm simply trying to implore you to entertain alternative methods to the same goal, of having healthy and balanced Juggernaut items, with diversity most of all.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nicorus ,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=fWOVQoin,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-01-26T03:03:57.451+0000) > > Elaborate on why you think its overbearing. Basically we're seeing it in most games even on core Sunfire Cape users and core Frozen Heart users, even with Sunfire Cape having an identical stat-line - they just buy the Dead Man's a bit later. It's crowding out not just other armor options but other defensive options period, which points to it simply giving more for its price than items usually give.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=fWOVQoin,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-26T03:10:33.062+0000) > > Basically we're seeing it in most games even on core Sunfire Cape users and core Frozen Heart users, even with Sunfire Cape having an identical stat-line - they just buy the Dead Man's a bit later. It's crowding out not just other armor options but other defensive options period, which points to it simply giving more for its price than items usually give. I mean, that is cherry-picking the causal link a bit don't you think? You could look at that same set of information, and say "Well, Deadman's Plate is filling it's core identity, but Sunfire Cape and Randuin's Omen obviously aren't if people are foregoing those items and getting Deadman's instead." I think it is a bit unfair to look at a certain set of information, and see what you believe (Deadman's is too strong) from a set of data points that doesn't actually give a clear answer as to the question of "Is Randuins/Sunfire too weak, or Deadman's too strong?". Might be worth trying to up the power of the other two items first, before you nerf an item that seems to have a healthy gold efficiency, and clear identity. I would argue Sunfire has lost much of it's identity due to Cinderhaulk, and Randuin's seems to be more efficient due to the sheer amount of extra crit in the game (since MM reworks) but never got a pass-over to ascertain whether the item was fulfilling its desired goals of reducing the impact of high-crit champions.
: Cassiopeia Twin Fang expectations
Making it a stacking crippling slow, or some time of other debilitating effect (paired with significantly less damage (the damage being loaded more towards the poisons)) might be a very interesting way to reallocate power and to stop the machine-gun-hyper-carry-ADC-with-mana that she has turned into. The problem with TF is that it seems to be way overloaded with power, and way overloaded with the focus of her kit. It would certainly be cool to have her have a crippling ability that allows her to hit poisons more reliably... it would allow her to maintain a sustained damage focus, but in a way that better fits her themes.
Statikk (NA)
: Mid-Year Mage Update
Repertoir, can we talk about where you guys are at, initially, with where you want to take Cass? It is kinda sad that we have to rework already reworked champions (Ryze and Cass) and that seems to be indicative of a very, VERY, poor understanding of the champion's core concepts and a severe lack of communication with the playerbase who main those champs. Where do you see her problems to be, and what are you hoping to do with her tentatively? I think back-and-forth communication is an absolute necessity with these updates across the board, which requires not just you guys to absorb/read text walls from us, but to respond with text walls of your own thoughts and iterative directions. I know Riot values surprises, but when you're reworking mages, perhaps it is time to challenge the theory that surprises/not being disappointed with changes that didn't make the final cut being more valuable than constant and nuanced interaction with the community to help maintain a champion's feel. At the end of the day, you guys have to be willing to handle some flak and just interact with us, else we might have a repeat of Cass's original rework, and then we'll be back at this the next time you guys do a Mage update. Can't we avoid that now, and have a real conversation rather than one party listening and the other trying to scream as loudly as possible while feeling ignored?
: This is an interesting questions to pose, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. As you've seen, PBE feedback is greatly appreciated and can change various aspects of content - colors, model changes, and in this case, pricing.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=8zyjVMPh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-14T21:56:41.558+0000) > > This is an interesting questions to pose, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. > > As you've seen, PBE feedback is greatly appreciated and can change various aspects of content - colors, model changes, and in this case, pricing. Im not sure anyone can really take this statement seriously. I don't want to come across as a jerk but, Riot often cites "not rnough time" or changes to a skin being "outside the scope". It is incredibly rare that you listen to feedback that auggest additions to skins, and the only reason the changes to this skin were made was because it obviously wasn't worthy of being in the tier it was given. The PBE gave feedback about Sweetheart Annie's VFX and that was outright ignored. It just feels like a question you are posing without any sincerity considering the PBE's track record for making changes or holding skins to make changes.
Meddler (NA)
: Serious question - what do you think's an appropriate ratio of serious responses to joke responses for a Rioter? Would genuinely like to know whether you feel it's inappropriate to ever post something non serious, or whether it's a frequency thing that frustrates you.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bTo6jB7P,comment-id=000300050000,timestamp=2016-01-07T03:31:41.421+0000) > > Serious question - what do you think's an appropriate ratio of serious responses to joke responses for a Rioter? Would genuinely like to know whether you feel it's inappropriate to ever post something non serious, or whether it's a frequency thing that frustrates you. Meddler I wouldn't even entertain asking that question. You know when people are upset they don't think rational, and when they don't think rational they accuse you of not spending enough time of talking about serious topics. You can shoot the shit when you're off the clock. I mean, you are posting this from home considering the time. Don't waste your breath man, it isn't worth it sometimes.
PWYFF (NA)
: Sorry, I was being a little flippant because your question's basically the whole "opinion posed as a question" thing. The changes we make to the game are obviously intended to drive healthy gameplay and get the game to a better state. If you ask "have you accounted for this negative scenario?" The answer is more along the lines of "we don't expect it to become that, but have contingency plans for many things." If you go further and say, "But what about my specific negative scenario," that's where we get into a rabbit hole of trying to convince you things are good rather than talk about the philosophy behind the change.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Pwyff,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=whbJ5lH1,comment-id=0045000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-28T19:38:26.103+0000) > > Sorry, I was being a little flippant because your question's basically the whole "opinion posed as a question" thing. The changes we make to the game are obviously intended to drive healthy gameplay and get the game to a better state. > > If you ask "have you accounted for this negative scenario?" The answer is more along the lines of "we don't expect it to become that, but have contingency plans for many things." If you go further and say, "But what about my specific negative scenario," that's where we get into a rabbit hole of trying to convince you things are good rather than talk about the philosophy behind the change. Then let's avoid the rabbit hole and specific scenarios. Do you think Riot has done a good job at rapidly turning around from changes made to the game that were intended to be healthy, but resulted in unhealthy variety or banrates/winrates? This season has had a lot of big changes from champ reworks to item changes to class changes, so the question being is, do you think the contingency plans have been well-utilized in the past?
PWYFF (NA)
: We can pivot if needed. That's the joy of being on a 2-week patch cadence.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Pwyff,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=whbJ5lH1,comment-id=00450000,timestamp=2015-10-28T19:04:00.489+0000) > > We can pivot if needed. That's the joy of being on a 2-week patch cadence. That is a little disingenuous, how often is the response "We haven't had enough time for players to adjust, so we're going to let it go for a couple of patches and THEN make changes if need be."?
PWYFF (NA)
: The Preseasoning: Day 1 Open Forum Discussion
With the removal of Mana Potions, how are you possibly going to balance champions with their mana costs/regen? When you look at the amount of damage Lux's E will do to a lane opponent vrs. resourceless/energy champions (like Zed) aren't you effectively removing Mages from being relevant at doing anything? I don't realistically see how you can possibly balance mages again without adding pre-nerf Chalice into the game. Essentially, how are you going to make Mages WORTH playing over their ultra-efficient, minimal downside, resourceless counterparts?
: She does not need compensation with a nerf. She is not in a healthy state, she is overpowered. The simple fact that she can 100-0 anybody she chooses and they don't have a choice in the matter makes it extremely painful. Seriously, a lobbed tibbers would be better, that would give some counterplay. Right now, as soon as she pops tibbers it instantly appears and deals massive damage and activates her stun on EVERYONE that gets hit. Not to mention it has a free sunfires. Now we also put into consideration her 3 other spells, 1 being defensive, 1 being aoe, 1 being single target and if not everyone on the enemy team is dead well, she just has to kite for a second for her low cooldown spells to come back up. That's not even putting into consideration that there are 4 other people on the enemy team ready to finish you off since your all low health.
> [{quoted}](name=BurakkuHishou,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XiAbGOjv,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-09-20T19:03:43.331+0000) > > She does not need compensation with a nerf. She is not in a healthy state, she is overpowered. The simple fact that she can 100-0 anybody she chooses and they don't have a choice in the matter makes it extremely painful. Seriously, a lobbed tibbers would be better, that would give some counterplay. Right now, as soon as she pops tibbers it instantly appears and deals massive damage and activates her stun on EVERYONE that gets hit. Not to mention it has a free sunfires. Now we also put into consideration her 3 other spells, 1 being defensive, 1 being aoe, 1 being single target and if not everyone on the enemy team is dead well, she just has to kite for a second for her low cooldown spells to come back up. That's not even putting into consideration that there are 4 other people on the enemy team ready to finish you off since your all low health. Please, show me all your non-anecdotal evidence that proves her being OP.
: Give annie's passive the TF gold card treatment where she cant hold it forever
And all of these nerfs whether it be "hold time" on her passive or a lobbed tibbers would require her getting power elsewhere in her kit. Annie is not imba, as much as you might want to whine and complain about being forced to respect her zone of influence. Annie does a good job of keeping squishies in check, and mobility. Removing her would not only indirectly buff champions like Kalista, but it would require her to essentially get a slow/more damage in her kit. Trust me, you don't want Annie to have higher ratios. It may reduce her sphere of influence, but that sphere essentially becomes insta-death regardless of tankyness. Nobody wants to adjust their playstyle to deal with a champion, but Riot isn't going to make these changes to Annie. She is healthy as much as it might be painful for many people to read that.
: Upcoming Upgrades to Chat Restrictions
> [{quoted}](name=Riot NeuroCat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Boqd81O0,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-15T18:35:43.427+0000) > * Punishments will rapidly escalate for those who don’t reform. Here’s how it works: > * First offense: 10 game chat restriction > * Second offense: 25 game chat restriction > * Third offense: 2 week ban > * Fourth offense: Permanent ban Let's talk a bit more about this specifically. You're saying, in an earlier response, that a player doesn't simply have 4 strikes. If they show genuine improvement, and have a temporary lapse months or even years later, that Riot isn't going to just pick up at whichever strike they left off at prior to reforming? So 2 chat restrictions in October 2015, won't mean that if you start being negative in August 2016, you'll get an instant suspension?
Solaxo (EUNE)
: Oh look, another champion with dash and 3x AA bonus damage
Was going to make a thread such as this, knew I just needed to look to find one already made. Riot needs to calm the fuck down with these hyper-mobile champions. Stop focusing their game on champions that can make clutch plays great for highlight reels, and return to some roots. Champions like Anivia, Karthus, Xin Zhao, all champions who are simplistic in design, were strong during their peaks, and still maintained some level of healthy counterplay to their kits. Stop overloading champions, stop giving mobility at practically no cost to a champion, and stop re-hashing mechanics over and over again.
Ouroboro (NA)
: I believe context is more important than just straight up censoring words, any word can become offensive or non-offensive according to its context. Do we have a problem with excessive swearing or something? Universal Rules do say it's all right to drop an "F bomb" in good context.
> [{quoted}](name=Ouroboro,realm=NA,application-id=bzRrPGQO,discussion-id=RM2Ehrh6,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-08-31T23:20:25.657+0000) > > I believe context is more important than just straight up censoring words, any word can become offensive or non-offensive according to its context. Do we have a problem with excessive swearing or something? Universal Rules do say it's all right to drop an "F bomb" in good context. I think this is an important point to emphasize. Filters are not as effective as having moderators who are simply well-trained to read a thread and understand the context. Keyru, you've mentioned the filter being turned off is non-negotiable, but I don't really think this is being player-focused by setting up a discussion to fail unless the community is already willing to give in on one particular point : /
: A portal opens. Suddenly, Riot, the players, the servers, and all 10 Galio mains are thrust into a distant and uncertain future. Stormclouds surround the population in a thick black pitch. The sun is dead. The sky breaks open briefly as lightning envelops all for a brief but clarifying moment; all that remains of the world we once knew is a Colliseum, the landing point of our time-worn League travelers. A sign hangs above the entrance - "20XX WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS." In this future, Worlds is not a time of year - it is a state of mind. There are no placements, no tiers, no promotion series - all compete on the World Stage, every minute of every hour, destined to a meaningless victory erased with each passing day. We have been brought by Zilean to the darkest timeline - The Dark Eternity of Esports. During the 20XX World championships, Faker, now a shadow of his former glory, presides above his 'competition' seated upon a throne of solid Challenger-tanium (a new metal made from smelted World Championship titles and the tears of his opponents). With a flick of his wrist, he orders all to be seated and the day's show begins. Holograms appear upon the floor of the stadium as the top players from every dimension gather, armored and altered to look like champions. They land upon a summoning platform as the landscape transforms to resemble The Howling Crystal Butcher's Riftline Chamber, the only 'viable' map in 20XX. As the 'champions' load in, the guests in the stadium stand up-right and begin marching as if compelled by some dark force. One by one, they walk towards one another in a strange pattern as the stage finishes completion. In this timeline, _we_ are the minions. Endlessly marching to our assured doom, just to become gold in someone's pocket. In your final moments, you think "Trusting Zilean may have been unwise..." "...but at least Skarner's not broken anymore."
> [{quoted}](name=Scarizard,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=tyeUxwvd,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-27T00:39:07.711+0000) > > A portal opens. Suddenly, Riot, the players, the servers, and all 10 Galio mains are thrust into a distant and uncertain future. Stormclouds surround the population in a thick black pitch. > > The sun is dead. > > The sky breaks open briefly as lightning envelops all for a brief but clarifying moment; all that remains of the world we once knew is a Colliseum, the landing point of our time-worn League travelers. A sign hangs above the entrance - "20XX WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS." In this future, Worlds is not a time of year - it is a state of mind. There are no placements, no tiers, no promotion series - all compete on the World Stage, every minute of every hour, destined to a meaningless victory erased with each passing day. We have been brought by Zilean to the darkest timeline - The Dark Eternity of Esports. > > During the 20XX World championships, Faker, now a shadow of his former glory, presides above his 'competition' seated upon a throne of solid Challenger-tanium (a new metal made from smelted World Championship titles and the tears of his opponents). With a flick of his wrist, he orders all to be seated and the day's show begins. Holograms appear upon the floor of the stadium as the top players from every dimension gather, armored and altered to look like champions. They land upon a summoning platform as the landscape transforms to resemble The Howling Crystal Butcher's Riftline Chamber, the only 'viable' map in 20XX. > > As the 'champions' load in, the guests in the stadium stand up-right and begin marching as if compelled by some dark force. One by one, they walk towards one another in a strange pattern as the stage finishes completion. > > In this timeline, _we_ are the minions. Endlessly marching to our assured doom, just to become gold in someone's pocket. > > In your final moments, you think "Trusting Zilean may have been unwise..." > > "...but at least Skarner's not broken anymore." Scarizard, are you drunk tonight?
: Academy Ahri in Live Client
Intended behavior. Content gets pushed in the patches, but isn't enabled until Riot flips the switch. Sometimes it is because it needs to be flipped "available" along with an outstanding bug-fix that didn't make it in for the skin.
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Starlighte

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