welt (NA)
: Riot Said Cassiopeia's Passive Can Go, Its Time
And guess who those dumbasses put to work on Fiora? Same idiot. How's Fiora doing these days? Riot does not learn, does not fire incompetent morons--probably because the idiocy only gets worse as you go up the ranks. It's almost funny how stupid they are. Mostly sad, though. I pity them.
Morello (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Solideus,realm=EUNE,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=ac8IwuH1,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2015-07-29T20:17:23.412+0000) > > Do you think Dominion will get an overhaul at some point? It's the only map not on par visually, and the gameplay still leaves something to be desired. I highly doubt it. This is a complex subject (I've talked about it in the past) but while we've learned a lot from Dominion, I think it's hard to validate doing significant work on it.
You haven't learned a damn thing from Dominion. Hell you haven't learned a thing since GW1. You make the same mistakes over and over again and when you need to go back and fix it later, you realize how stupid it was...then do it again anyway. You haven't even "talked" about Dominion in the past. You've lied, made empty promises, lied, avoided the question, lied, ignored the community, lied, gave the community the finger and--in case I forgot to mention it--lied. "Worth it" or not, you owe the current and past Dominion players. At one point it may have been silly to think that, but after several years of your bullshit, the *least* you can do is spend the time and money and update the map. It's not nearly enough, but it'd be a start.
Meddler (NA)
: Stashu's not working on Cassiopeia at present. If we do make adjustments to Cass in the short to medium term they're much more likely to be done by the Live Balance team than the Champion Update team (so would mainly involve power shifts, rather than significant changes to how her skills function). That's the case because a number of months ago we took a look at the current state of Cass and concluded that it was more important to have the Champion Update team focus on other characters. That's not to say we think she's in a perfect spot. In particular, we realize there's some very valid frustration that she doesn't deliver as well as she could on the thematic expectations a number of her players have (poison mage). We do think there are other champions that need work done on them more however, so are focused on those at present, with Fiora being the most recent example. I realize that's likely pretty frustrating to hear if you're a Cass player that doesn't like her new kit, and my apologies for that. In terms of making that priority call that was a decision Stashu contributed some thoughts to, but didn't make himself. Riot does have a culture that supports individual developers pitching work they think's valuable/arguing for what they believe in, but it's not a 'work on whatever you want regardless of team priorities' culture. Stashu's stance was that he was eager to do Cass followup work or take on Fiora, whichever we thought was more valuable. The conclusion Champion Update and Game Design leadership came to was that Fiora was the better call in this case, since she was a character with a lot of room for improvement/cool stuff and had some notable issues. We also believed Fiora had the potential to be a pretty successful gameplay rework, based off some early exploratory designs Guinsoo had been doing before he'd had to shift focus onto other stuff. That decision to shift focus from Cass to other champs is something those of us making the call on what work to prioritize should have mentioned months ago, apologies for that lack of communication. If anyone's got any queries about how we make those sort of priority calls I'm more than happy to have a go at answering them here. I probably won't be able to answer specifics about Cass' current state of balance or what guided detailed decisions on her rework however (will give it a shot if I can offer an at least somewhat informed answer, there's a bunch of details there I wasn't involved with/aren't up to date on).
How stupid can you people possibly be to let Stashu work on another champion rework? Do you not understand the simple concept of learning from previous mistakes? Stashu fucked up Cassiopeia for months and continued to do nothing but fuck her up more and more, and now you let him loose on Fiora? What the hell were you thinking? Stashu should not be allowed to go anywhere near a champion's abilities, design or---why is he still at Riot, again?
: Champion Update: Fiora
...Whoever thought any of this was a good idea needs to be fired immediately.
: The HUD update ready to go live with 5.14!
You better include an option to use the old hud. New one looks shitty and even less user-friendly.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: So first of all, giving his ult a mana cost is not likely to solve any of the frustration problems it might have. In the vast majority of fights it's going to be used the same way, under the same contexts. If the spell needs a downside (not saying it does) giving it a mana cost isn't going to solve that. That said, from a design standpoint I do agree that there is something to the idea of "he's been spamming spells and is out of mana, now is my chance to strike." His ult not having a cost directly avoids the minor gameplay idea of "characters are weak when they're OOM." My bad on that one. We'll be fixing it for 5.12 by upping the cost to 100 (from 0). There were localization things that prevented it getting in for 5.11. As a side note, adding higher mana costs across Ekko's kit (we're also upping W cost to 50 from 30 in 5.11) helps mitigate burst in an indirect manner. Higher costs means he has a harder time farming and may want to invest in more mana/regen itemization. More gold spent on mana + less gold overall = lower AP totals at X point in the game.
Mana isn't his issue. His range is ridiculous and he has WAY too much in his kit, particularly things that should never have been even considered as part of an assassin's kit. Remember how Sona isn't supposed to have such a powerful AoE CC, because she's a support and those skills are not meant for her? Well, hers is at least an ultimate. AoE CC on an assassin is the single worst idea Riot has ever dreamed up, and giving it ridiculous range, a large radius, a massive and well-scaling shield *and* a slow if the stun doesn't hit, on top of a %missing health on attack passive, is just unbelievable. Add that to ridiculous range on his Q (*another* AoE soft CC even! and let's not even mention his passive), a teleport-to on a skill that's already a dash and obscene ratios on everything and it becomes very clear that Ekko has considerably more problems than just a free ultimate. Go back to the drawing board on this one. His design is so awful that without all this overloaded nonsense he'd be non-functional and worthless. That's the sign of a terribly designed champion. You done fucked up, go fix it before he's nerfed to uselessness anyway and lingers in obscurity for years to come *cough Quinn, Fiora...* And for fucks sake, change your design philosophy. Stop designing for a concept and instead design a kit first and fit that to a concept later. Get the kit to work right *first.*
Riot Jag (NA)
: [5.2] Live Gameplay Patch Forecast
Is Kat going to be buffed? She currently relies heavily on DFG to burst opponents. Without it she just doesn't have the burst in her kit to kill a carry before they can escape. Nor can she 1v1 without it. She can't assassin without DFG. Is she being buffed to compensate, or is she going to be relegated to shit-tier again?
: > We simply want Cassiopeia to be a poison mage. As in a mage who's sole purpose is to cast poisons at people. We don't like an E focused kit. Please fix her. This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to * Have a strong early game * Be long range * Do mostly AoE damage * Have short cast times, etc. Going forward with Cassiopeia, the core goalset includes focusing the kit more on her poisons, but it does not necessarily include making her a long-range-focused or early-game-focused mage. We've got her to a much more playable state (perhaps even a bit too strong), but there's still more to be done feeling-wise. This might mean shifting power from her short range ability into her longer range ones, or just making her shorter range ability different and more of a core poison itself, as all of these are viable options in making a poison mage. I'll definitely be sure to bring the discussion here when we start to get a bit more traction on the paths we're thinking of taking.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:06:38.607+0000) > > This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: > A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to > > * Have a strong early game > * Be long range > * Do mostly AoE damage > * Have short cast times, etc. > > Going forward with Cassiopeia, the core goalset includes focusing the kit more on her poisons, but it does not necessarily include making her a long-range-focused or early-game-focused mage. I disagree. A DoT character needs to be at least one of three things in order to be effective and not useless: --Hyper mobile (Teemo) so the character can duck in and out of combat to trade effectively --Super tanky (Singed) so the character can survive long enough for his/her poisons to deal enough damage --Extra-long ranged (Cassiopeia) so the character can stay out of reach of retaliation that would kill him/her The character does not need to be all three of these, and in fact is most balanced and effective when he/she is crippled in one of the other departments (Singed's range is nonexistant, Teemo's tankiness is nonexistant, Cass's tankiness is nonexistant) but that must be coupled with one of the above extremes. What would Singed be like if he wasn't super tanky? What would Teemo be like if he wasn't super mobile? That's what you've done to Cass by making her so E-focused. You've taken away her primary asset and have not compensated by removing her greatest weakness. That is why she feels like shit to play, even if she's actually strong: being a close-ranged mage does not fit with being a super-squishy DoT character. It wouldn't feel right even if E one-shot tanks. Power is irrelevant here, she feels like shit because her current design is shit.
Daen (NA)
: > In the short term, we're open to splitting these boards out for you guys, but not until it makes sense to do so. In the long term we want to give you guys the ability to go create them yourselves as we've hinted at in the past. ;) Out of curiosity, what's stopping the player-created boards from becoming ghost towns? If making the Maps & Modes board into 4 separate boards would be a problem, what happens when a theoretically infinite number of boards are created for this purpose?
> > In the short term, we're open to splitting these boards out for you guys, but not until it makes sense to do so. In the long term we want to give you guys the ability to go create them yourselves as we've hinted at in the past. ;) > > Out of curiosity, what's stopping the player-created boards from becoming ghost towns? If making the Maps & Modes board into 4 separate boards would be a problem, what happens when a theoretically infinite number of boards are created for this purpose? His bullshit excuse falls apart, of course. It's as simple as that.
Tamat (NA)
: > Voting is part of the problem with the Maps and Modes board. SR threads are voted up, Dominion and TT threads are voted down or not at all. Split the damn boards already so we can have our communities back. I know this isn't what you want to hear. But there's downsides either way. One way you have the problem you illustrated, the other way you have ghost towns. In the short term, we're open to splitting these boards out for you guys, but not until it makes sense to do so. In the long term we want to give you guys the ability to go create them yourselves as we've hinted at in the past. ;)
> > Voting is part of the problem with the Maps and Modes board. SR threads are voted up, Dominion and TT threads are voted down or not at all. Split the damn boards already so we can have our communities back. > > I know this isn't what you want to hear. But there's downsides either way. One way you have the problem you illustrated, the other way you have ghost towns. In the short term, we're open to splitting these boards out for you guys, but not until it makes sense to do so. In the long term we want to give you guys the ability to go create them yourselves as we've hinted at in the past. ;) You still don't get it. Not having the boards in the first place is what drove people away. If you give us our boards back, the communities WILL return. They won't be as vibrant at first, perhaps, but again that is **your fault** for driving them away in the first place by not giving them the boards they needed. This isn't about a compromise or working with the new system or low populations or anything. **It's about you fixing your mistake and apologizing to the people you insulted by removing our boards in the first place.** TL;DR You fucked up, you need to fix it. No more excuses, no more blaming the communities, no more bullshit. Own your mistake, apologize and fix it. It is not that difficult and there is no valid excuse.
Tamat (NA)
: > Overall how happy is the Boards team and other Rioters with the voting system of the Boards? I know Pen and a few others want more participation in it atm, but I would love to hear your own opinion if possible. I think the system itself is great; however we can optimize it, and make it even better when we get a lot more people voting. We're getting a fraction of the kind of voting volume that we want to see, but we're heading in the right direction. Shameless plug time ... VOTE MORE! On everything!
> > Overall how happy is the Boards team and other Rioters with the voting system of the Boards? I know Pen and a few others want more participation in it atm, but I would love to hear your own opinion if possible. > > I think the system itself is great; however we can optimize it, and make it even better when we get a lot more people voting. We're getting a fraction of the kind of voting volume that we want to see, but we're heading in the right direction. > > Shameless plug time ... VOTE MORE! On everything! Voting is part of the problem with the Maps and Modes board. SR threads are voted up, Dominion and TT threads are voted down or not at all. Split the damn boards already so we can have our communities back.
: > > > Why is it taking so needlessly long to split the Maps & Modes into four sub-forums*** LIKE EVERYBODY WANTS***? > > > a) Summoner's Rift > > > b) Twisted Treeline > > > c) Crystal Scar > > > d) Howling Abyss > > > > > > (featured game mode discussion would just take parent on the main corresponding map) > > > > Because I don't think Maps & Modes has even reached critical mass that it needs to be self sustaining. Fragmentation of that topic would probably result in several ghost town boards. > > Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." > > Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** > > Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit. yeah dog, act super hostile to a red that's already frightened to death about wondering into GD, that'll surely allow the conversation you want to happen, happen. so calm your shit and come back when you can post like an adult.
> > > > Why is it taking so needlessly long to split the Maps & Modes into four sub-forums*** LIKE EVERYBODY WANTS***? > > > > a) Summoner's Rift > > > > b) Twisted Treeline > > > > c) Crystal Scar > > > > d) Howling Abyss > > > > > > > > (featured game mode discussion would just take parent on the main corresponding map) > > > > > > Because I don't think Maps & Modes has even reached critical mass that it needs to be self sustaining. Fragmentation of that topic would probably result in several ghost town boards. > > > > Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." > > > > Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** > > > > Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit. > > yeah dog, act super hostile to a red that's already frightened to death about wondering into GD, that'll surely allow the conversation you want to happen, happen. > > so calm your shit and come back when you can post like an adult. He's had plenty of non-hostile threads and posts asking for it. Including the one he quoted. He needs to see his bullshit for what it is.
: > Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." > > Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** > > Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit. There were dom + TT forums for a long ass time and the population was nothing special You're reaching a bit mate
> > Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." > > > > Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** > > > > Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit. > > There were dom + TT forums for a long ass time and the population was nothing special > > You're reaching a bit mate It was enough, and more importantly it was there for people that wanted to join the community to have somewhere to go to find info and guides, find players, find tournaments, find streams and find out more about the mode. It was there for people to talk to each other and discuss the game without having to dig through dozens of SR threads. It was there for people to form an actual community. the Maps and Modes forum is nearly all SR threads and virtually impossible to sift through for any Dominion or TT guides/info/tournaments/players/streams/anything. Totally useless to Dominion and TT players. Of COURSE they'd leave it.
: > Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." > > Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** > > Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit. To be honest, I don't think cussing someone out like that on something they kind of have a point on will get you what you want. Riot has information on boards and which are frequented and how often they're frequented. If they were active enough, I'm positive they'd be split for clarity.
> > Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." > > > > Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** > > > > Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit. > > To be honest, I don't think cussing someone out like that on something they kind of have a point on will get you what you want. Riot has information on boards and which are frequented and how often they're frequented. If they were active enough, I'm positive they'd be split for clarity. They were popular enough before riot nuked the forums. The forums were the Dominion and Treeline community hubs. Moving to Boards left nowhere for these communities to go to, so of *course* the boards population isn't big enough now.
Tamat (NA)
: > Why is it taking so needlessly long to split the Maps & Modes into four sub-forums*** LIKE EVERYBODY WANTS***? > a) Summoner's Rift > b) Twisted Treeline > c) Crystal Scar > d) Howling Abyss > > (featured game mode discussion would just take parent on the main corresponding map) Because I don't think Maps & Modes has even reached critical mass that it needs to be self sustaining. Fragmentation of that topic would probably result in several ghost town boards.
> > Why is it taking so needlessly long to split the Maps & Modes into four sub-forums*** LIKE EVERYBODY WANTS***? > > a) Summoner's Rift > > b) Twisted Treeline > > c) Crystal Scar > > d) Howling Abyss > > > > (featured game mode discussion would just take parent on the main corresponding map) > > Because I don't think Maps & Modes has even reached critical mass that it needs to be self sustaining. Fragmentation of that topic would probably result in several ghost town boards. Translation: "We want to murder the Dominion and Treeline communities. They are worthless players that do not matter at all to us, and we would rather them play a different game than taint ours with their stench." Seriously, it is **YOUR FAULT** that our communities are dying. **YOU TOOK AWAY OUR FORUM COMMUNITY AND DID NOT ADEQUATELY REPLACE IT.** You're using bullshit circular logic to justify your idiotic decisions. There **WAS** enough of a community for each map to sustain their forums, but you took it away and gave us **NOTHING** to flock to, so people left and now there's not enough, so you use that to justify not giving us boards... You seriously can't see how this is **YOUR FAULT** and that you're **CONTINUING TO MAKE IT WORSE** instead of fixing it? Give us our fucking boards back and there *WILL* be a population for them, assuming you didn't permanently drive everyone away with this bullshit.
: Separate boards for each map.
This needs more attention.
Tamat (NA)
: [Completed] I'm Tamat AmAA / Q&A
Dominion/Treeline/ARAM boards. Why do they *still* not exist? Are you murdering the Dom and Treeline communities intentionally? No PR bullshit answers please.
: Hello again Ginga~ Most of these points have come up in some form or another [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1jbu3eaA-cassiopieas-power-curve-is-beyond-stupid) and [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/8Vz3Nbpo-riotstashu-i-think-i-know-how-casss-passive-can-work-everyone-else-hear-me-out), and so it's something we've been thinking about quite a bit. I'm totally on board with your larger goal here, which I take to be: figure out why other, similar passives are fun while Cassiopeia's isn't, and use that knowledge to improve Cassiopeia. Many of your points revolve around Cassiopeia's kit not supporting a hypercarry curve (1, 2, and 5 all talk about this). While we are not totally flipping it, but we agree, and we *are* addressing this directly in 4.21. We'd like to see how far this goes between 4.21 and 5.1, and respond if it's not enough on this front. Some of your other points are independent of power concerns: the ways in which *Aspect of the Serpent* is "free," how it suffers from lack of agency, and how other scaling passives are more thematically aligned with the champion. All of these could contribute to the dissatisfaction with the passive, and perhaps some more than others. One that stands out to me is that aside from the surrounding system, the rewards themselves just don't feel very satisfying as say, Kha'Zix's evolutions. These are all things we're considering moving forward into 5.1 and beyond. We are *not* done here, but I'd like to really get a good feel for the effects of 4.21 before deciding which path to take. When that happens, I'll be sure to raise the discussion here (on boards), get some preliminary feedback, and then get the take-aways form that into testing on PBE.
We already have had plenty of time to play with the 4.21 changes on PBE. Pushing them to live for a few months won't make us hate it any less. Don't bother pushing it live, don't wait it out. We're done waiting. You've gotten plenty of feedback, it's time to talk changes. All you're doing is continuing to blow us off. **We do NOT appreciate it.** Get off your damn high horse, there is nothing left to discuss about her current state. It's been done to death. **Get to work on the next update NOW, not later. NOW.**
: > Her other weaknesses can be addressed better if her passive isn't a ball of stats. I'd probably be more receptive if you proposed a change that addressed this core concern.
Best solutions I can think of atm: Make W more attractive as a zoning/harassing option by increasing its damage v champions (keeping its minion damage low, if that's where they want it) or its slow. Make R more reliable as a defensive tool by shortening its delay. The Q amp from E is actually fine in practice. It makes Q a lot more worthwhile. The problem, though, is that she still needs to get into E range to do it and doesn't have the defense she needs to survive it. Buffing her base stats a bit would help there, but having W as a better zoning/harassing tool and having R be more reliable would make it feel less like suicide. As for lategame, having Cadence stacks grant damage would allow her to spam Qs from long range and get decent damage out of it so long as she's committed to keeping it going. That way she doesn't need to get into E range to do decent damage, though if she does she can end up doing more. Moreover, reducing Q's base cooldown (and having it deal decent damage on its own) lets her switch targets more effectively when she does start using Es.
: > It's a kit enabler. It uses Es to fuel Qs and Ws, which are also fueled by themselves. I don't really think Cass is suffering from a lack of mana, though. At the least, other weaknesses are more pronounced.
In lane she's not. Later on she does, somewhat. Her other weaknesses can be addressed better if her passive isn't a ball of stats.
: I don't think this makes most of the unhappy folks happy. The unhappy players want more emphasis on poison in her kit. More strength in Q and W, less focus on E. Deadly Cadence is, at its heart, an E enabler.
It's a kit enabler. It uses Es to fuel Qs and Ws, which are also fueled by themselves. Ideally I'd want Q to get super-buffed from Cadence stacks (rather than from *just* E followups) but I doubt Stashu would be so kind.
chumbler (NA)
: Or just revert the rework. You know, the correct solution to this whole farce that never should have happened.
: >Add Deadly Cadence back... You have my attention... >as rank 2 of her passive. You lost me. Many people, myself included abhor the stacking passive. This will only add further salt in the wound, hiding even more of her previous power behind the terrible stack mechanic. What needs to be done is 100% scrap the passive, it does not fit Cass at all, and it's just an utter pain. Alternatively, do what Chumbler says and completely revert the trash, but knowing riot, they won't ever admit a failure and revert.
At least this way the passive wouldn't *feel* like utter trash. The power would still be in her base kit, it'd just be more mana efficient in the mid-lategame. I hate the rework as much as the next guy, but if it isn't going then I'd rather have as much back as possible.
Rioter Comments
: I think the rework takes Cass in the right direction towards viability while retaining familiar gameplay patterns etc etc. Is it there yet? Probably not, she is definitely a tiny bit undertuned on live. However, I feel like a lot of the problems are going to solved by the set of buffs that are going through. Issues that I expect to be resolved are: Q feeling a bit clunky due to the high delay, being able to max Q if necessary, and smoothing out her very rough early game. Compared to old Cass, I think with the coming buffs she will be a much more reliable carry. The Twin Fang reset is much more generous and her Q will be easier to hit. Additionally, she can get her full DPS out at max range. There is no arguing that old Cass had a stronger early/mid game simply due to ratios and her passive, however I think the reworked Cassio is MUCH more potent once you have your first/second item. I will say this. There is one thing that I dislike a lot about the rework and that is upping the Q CD to 4 seconds. I REALLY dislike the fact that she can't seamlessly string Qs together. I think it is one of the most satisfying and core parts of Cass being Cass and by preventing her from doing so until she hits 200 stacks, you make her feel very unsatisfying until that point. To clarify, one of the biggest complaints about the passive is how it feels like shackles. I think the 25% CDR is a large contributor to this because once you get it, you FEEL like old Cass again with the 3 second CD on Q. That'd be the only change I'd make - revert the nerf to the Q cooldown, give her ult scaling CD with rank, lower Miasma CD with rank, and then put something exciting in place of the 25% CDR. I don't know what could go there that wouln't require her to suffer elsewhere for the sake of balance, but it would be cool if it was something appreciable like the sustain you get on Twin Fang.
At my level (Gold), assassins play extremely aggressively. They tend to be in my face more often than not, and take what might be considered balls-deep risks to get early kills. Even with a fast Catalyst I've been struggling to survive against most assassins that play this way (and the ones that don't tend to be weaker players) thanks to needing to Q and hit several Es to match their trades, which are usually a lot faster and hit a lot harder early. It's slightly better on PBE, but not nearly enough to make me comfortable playing Cass against an assassin. As for the rework overall, she's too E-focused. The passive is still junk, though, but if it *must* stay then how about this: Screw the CDR. Replace it with Deadly Cadence on rank 2. By that point in the game, she needs mana for teamfighting rather than laning anyway, it's not hidden power (it's a clearly-visible buff), it restores some of the fun of old Cass and it wouldn't feel nearly as shackling. Fuck the AP bonus, though. That needs to go back into her kit. Or, failing that, have some added effect that would provide that value through gameplay rather than pure stats (rank 3: more spam=more damage? deadly cadence adds %damage per stack?)
: You need to stop raging on the forums and make a constructive post and show Riot why they should give you one. Arguing only makes you look immature and just angry with no real reason to even listen to you. Also if the board will only be made into a hate board as to why Riot hasn't worked on dominion then that board is a total waste of time and we be somewhere Riot doesn't even go. I'm not trying to make you not have a community, but having a whole community like you is one I don't want around. You have no intelligence with your posts and its all emotion, angry, and blaming. What do you really have to contribute to anything? You have done nothing yet rage and curse. Not something I'd want apart of my community. Grow your community? You mean the one that is treated like the plague? It has been dying since I started playing almost 2 years ago. Even on the old forums it was never growing. It was staying stagnant at best. You have the control of whether Riot listens to you and you aren't starting off on a good foot.
You say that like I haven't tried being "constructive" for years. Got shit all done. So no thanks.
: Telling you the truth isn't trolling you. Almost no one plays dominion and no one cares. Thats why there isn't a whole new board for it. No reason for such a small portion of the community to have a whole place dedicated for them when you have other areas with a much bigger. There is absolutely no reason to make it just for you when we have a working area right now. Grow up and accept not everyone cares about dominion because its not fun to a large portion of the community. Hence why its been forgotten by most of the community. Get enough people to care and then you'll get it. Until then be happy You can still talk about it.
No one plays because **Riot has done everything in its power to discourage people from playing, to make it as difficult as possible to learn about the mode and to make bringing new people in nearly impossible.** By removing the Dom forum (and, previously, moving all Dom threads out of GD immediately) they made it that much harder to grow the community. They fucked us and they continue to fuck us. It's on them to fix their myriad mistakes. So if you don't care, then what the fuck is wrong with you that you want those that do to not have our community? Fuck off.
: Its not my problem that posts you care about others don't. That isn't a flaw with the way riot does things, but how the community does things. Honestly I don't care about dominion. WHile I probably wouldn't downvote it if others do then to bad. An entire board from a near dead community that is already small is a waste of space and resources. Sorry its the truth of the matter and you can take it however you want.
Yeah, a big waste of space alright. All those server resources to house a single board. Yeah, no. You don't care, so fuck off, k? We didn't kill our own community, Riot did. Getting rid of our forums did. So no, I'm not going to accept that "truth." It's bullshit. Troll someone else.
: She never has had a problem in the past farming in lane against other mages and even with the nerfs to Q it can still clear waves quite easily if you max it. With the amp changes you can most definitely get away with maxing Q now. In regards to assassins, Cass destroys them if she takes Exhaust. Her Twin Fang damage is absolutely insane at all levels of play and will be even more so once the buffs go through to provide a flat .55 ratio.
Q cannot clear waves even if you max it. Not on its own. Exhaust does not save you at all against assassins. They will out-damage you through exhaust or they will wait out the exhaust while you deal negligible damage. Are you basing this on math or actual experience facing assassins? Go try it and see how well you do. Hint: you'll be miserable and wishing the game would end quickly.
: just because its called summoners rift doesn't mean its only for that when its called **Maps** and modes. See that 's' on the end. Thats plural meaning more than 1 map. Just because one name comes in the url doesn't make it only for that. Again its maps and modes meaning more than just things about summoners rift.
Look in that board and tell me how many threads are about things other than Summoner's Rift. It's a fucking joke. It's not a board for other maps, its a board for SR. Non-SR threads get downvoted into obscurity because **that's how boards work.** It's an insult, nothing more.
: Hey Ginga. I've been reading your posts since the GD thread, sorry for not always responding directly. >...she's still a hyper-carry, she's still single-target and primarily direct damage. Our changes slotted for 4.21 are aimed precisely at these. Hyper carry: They flatten scaling ratios/utility and weight them considerably towards the early game. Further, the changes strictly add power to her at all stages of the game (including the early game) with the E debuff. Again, these changes don't reverse her power curve, but they *significantly* flatten it. Single target: Okay, 4.21 doesn't really address the single target concerns, so, maybe it's not aimed at *all* of your concerns. True. Direct damage: The changes do, however, undeniably get at the direct damage concern. The changes lower Twin Fang's best case damage (late game ratio down) and add some indirect damage (poison amp). The indirect damage amp depends on hitting E, yes, but, at the end of the day, that's solely a buff to her indirect damage. We're not done looking into Cassiopeia, and I know these changes won't entirely fix the problems you have, but I do want to point out that we share at least some of your concerns, and I think it's clear that we're in the process of addressing them. As for >She's still primarily an all-in AP Rambo for literally no reason just because this rework is focused entirely on her E. Cassiopeia has always had two combat ranges (Q/W range and E/R range). Q/W are long range, and E/R are medium range-- I don't mean to be super controversial here, but E/R have never been 'Rambo' range. It's true that they put you at much more risk than the Q/W ranges, yes, and the update makes this her primary combat range, but 700 range is simply not Rambo range (is Ashe rambo range?), so I think that's a little unfair. In recent versions, Cassiopeia functions most effectively at mid range, towing a very delicate line. Yes it's true that a mid range character is going to have lower range than most mages, since most mages are long range (or ther're assassins, in which case I'm not sure I'd classify them as mages in the first place), but that hardly makes them Rambo =/. I do, however, love the photoshops :p _____ Anyway, don't have much time to talk right now, sorry, but I just wanted to chime in really quick. We share your concerns, we've worked on them, we're still working on them, and 4.21 will not be the last patch in which we keep a close eye on Cassiopeia . Cheers!
> Yes it's true that a mid range character is going to have lower range than most mages Which means that, since she is primarily facing other mages in lane, she is in Rambo range. She has to get in range of all of her opponent's skills **just to farm with E, which she is forced to do since Q/W can't farm on their own**. That's Rambo range. She isn't facing Ashe in lane, she isn't facing Rammus or Olaf or Sivir. She's facing mages. Against Assassins she has no defense other than R, which is on a delay. Everything else is too slow. Q and W are not threatening enough to keep assassins at bay. and comboing them with E is too slow to match their damage. Being in lane at all against an assassin is being in rambo range. How is that not clear? Edit: Also, are you seriously using her *average* skill range as the basis for your argument? You seriously have no idea how design works. At all. Her E range is her range. She is not effective without E therefore her range is E's range. E's range is shit, therefore her range is shit. If Q/W were actually effective **on their own** then her range would be Q/W range, with occasional dips to E range. Average range is not how effective range works. Average range has never been a metric to determine effective range, for anything. What are you smoking?
: Maps/game modes. Really simple here
You mean this one? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/**summoners-rift** Emphasis mine.
Tamat (NA)
: By art I'm guessing you mean Story & Art. If so, you may have missed this portion of the Guidelines. > DO NOT post fan art or champion/skin concepts I can see a couple of boards where fan art could be appropriate. Off the top of my head there's Community Creations, Misc, GD, and even Skins & Champion concepts if it's a new idea. We're actively working on a new approach to how we communicate the Guidelines of each board. Additionally, we're reworking all of the messaging that moderators send to make it more helpful, and less ambiguous. We know there's confusion, and that's a problem we want to solve.
Inb4 "DO NOT post anything containing the word "Dominion" or you will be immediately, permanently banned" as a "guideline" for every single board.
Tamat (NA)
: Try not to think about it in terms of right or wrong. Think "is this content relevant to a community?" If you're posting a Champion concept in Maps & Modes, you've probably added content that isn't relevant to that community, and to preserve the focus of that community, it then makes more sense for us to delete it than to let it ride.
So does this mean that all Dominion posts are going to be deleted? Y'know, 'cause **Dominion no longer has a board.** Neither does Treeline, nor ARAM nor anything but the Rift. There's no Dominion community anymore thanks to you. May as well aggressively hunt down and kill its last remnants before they can assimilate. No stragglers, right?
Areklis (EUNE)
: Actually, You'll find that it is. If you go ahead and play just as the old guides told you, then you are bount to fail, no fun there. You think you cannot contribute to the team unless you have maxed your passive? That's your way yo see it, it could be as well that Shit is getting stronger while you play the match. E does increase survivability and improves her laning potential, by refunding mana on lasthitting with it, and outright restoring life on hit after at most 10 minutes of play. The trick is that you use it to kill minions, too! For example you can use it to kill the caster minions while you have Q'ed them. I suppose having just one rank of E early in the game, and maxing it last would not hurt your pride or your fun. Truth be told I used to play an E-centric Cass even from way before her remake, so all I've seen is Casseiopea turn from awesome to awesome^2.
You keep getting into E range to last hit. When you eventually play against someone that isn't a moron or fears what old Cass could do, you'll be jumped on for overextending and violently murdered before you can say "wtf i hit my q!"
Utora (NA)
: Rek'sai Q&A [COMPLETED]
Was Dominion considered at all during her conception and design?
Areklis (EUNE)
: Replacing a spam enabling mechanic with something more involving that can be rewarding as well is fun Zone control with W is still fun, if you make them count. Hitting Qs and following up with Es for supplemental (NOT primary) damage is still fun, if you make them count. Hitting Qs to poke my target down at range or push hard is still fun, if you make them count. using your E to increase your survivability is fun. having lategame AP that can rival a farmed Veigar's is fun (unless you have a enemy veigar ofc)
Replacing any mechanic with "wait for 35min" is the very definition of making it less fun. Zone control? With what? Q does no damage, it's not threatening enough to control anything. People stand in it like it isn't even there. It doesn't even out-DPS some champs' health regen. Q is no longer Shit's primary damage. Q is no longer meaningful damage at all. Q can't even kill caster minion waves without E spam to help. Qs don't poke shit down. It is not possible to "make them count," because they deal no damage and are completely non-threatening. You can't throw a pillow and "make it count" enough to injure a human being. E does not increase survivability, E puts you in range of your opponent. Considering you have no response to them being in range of you, and are squishy enough that just *looking* at you is enough to kill you, getting in E range is suicide. Suicide is not fun. If you think it is, you need therapy. Yeah, waiting for 35min while your team plays 4v5 so you can get yourself farmed enough to do mediocre damage is "fun." Mhm. Meanwhile you don't even have Event Horizon, you get the shitty conditional "ultimate" version. You can't even be tangentially a help to your team before 35min. Tell me more about how "fun" new Shit is.
: You rush it.. It's the first item you should get next to Tear.. And if you're getting hit as Cass, with her freaking AoE slow and huge DoTs then you're terrible and should be shot.
Huge DoTs? LMFAO have you played Cass at ALL in the past few months? lmfao. Huge dots, holy crap thats hilarious.
: Liandries is core on Cass.. Since she does an AoE DoT that gets multiplied by 4 with it..
Yeah? When exactly are you picking it up, hm? If you rush Haunting Guise, you're squishy and can't spam. If you get it after RoA/seraphs, your midgame is even more shit than usual as you won't have enough AP. If you get it as a third item, you're putting off Void Staff and your damage continues to suffer. If you get it as a fourth item, by that point in the game it's hardly effective at all anymore, not to mention you're forgoing AP again and not taking advantage of your % bonus and scaling. Guise is a 5th or 6th item at best. Not likely the game will go on that long, though, with a Cass on the team. Game is probably over before 20min.
Saruyan (NA)
: oh right, i forgot your point was just needlessly complain and not try and make changes or try something new after 1 game you must sure know that without a doubt cass is shit right now. well here let me give you some consoling: sorry your champ was slightly altered, but i mean it was pretty slight compared to someone like sion who is entirely new, so be glad you dont have to try and learn a new champion entirely, cause that would be horrible.
I'd rather they remade her from scratch. "Slightly altering" her made her into complete shit. At least with a full rework they'd be able to actually make her useful.
Saruyan (NA)
: stop taking anything but ghost/flash(especially exh wth) rush tear with boots, rush rylais after after either finish archangel, get liandrys or get deathcap, or zhonya if dying to assassin a lot. finish rest of items also her ult was never nerfed so idk what you're talking about.
You missed the point entirely. GJ. ghost on cass, are you insane? No roa=instantly killed by the first person to look at you. liandries? lmfao. Her skils are shit, her scaling is shit and she feels like shit. She is shit. Not Cass, shit.
: She's supposed to somehow get herself in harms way by poisoning enemies with her short-ranged poison skills to get stacks, but she's also supposed to be weak enough to lose any duel that may happen from damaging her enemies because "she's not supposed to be a lane bully" this is where the rework falls apart, because interacting with the enemy is NOT something a hypercarry with a weak early game should be doing, yet that's the strange role she has been pigeonholed into. Imagine Nasus had to stack his stacks not by killing minions but by landing his syphoning strike on an enemy champion, we'd be looking at 20% winrate very soon.
I want her winrate to tank to 0%. Maybe then Riot will wake the fuck up and realize this will NEVER, EVER work.
Rioter Comments
: Oh, who's their poison champ? I played it a while ago but if they have a solid DoT/poison champ, I'd consider picking it back up, since you know... The one I really enjoyed is gone.
They released Star Girl recently, she's largely a DoT mage. A few differences from Cass, though. -Her Q is a line skillshot -Her W requires line of sight with her target -Her E is a slow AoE+damage increae -Her DoT stacks with the Cosmic Staff item effect DoT -Her ulti is a close-range DoT that prevents movement effects and gives her a shield for each damage tick. She's not quite as active as Cass was, but evokes a lot of the same playstyles: she's a bit of a bully but very, very squishy and has no real escapes of her own.
: I'm pretty sure Poppy could destroy Cassiopeia if she went midlane, that's how bad this is
Skyrush (NA)
: "We reworked Cassiopeia for being an OPPRESSIVE LANE BULLY"
Cass is fucking worthless. Tried playing her again today, was absolutely sickened. Couldn't duel a fucking Kassadin that was STUNNED then EXHAUSTED in lane. He out fucking DPSed me while standing in poison, while exhausted, after being stunend for 2 seconds and taking a full fucking rotation. Yeah, she's a real fucking bully.
: >I really want to try and master her but it just feels as if there's no point if she's just going to keep being changed. Yeah I really worry about this. I want to keep improving the champion where possible, but, if the changes are dramatic they can really cause some of these sorts of problems. I hope you stick with her through the changes, and I'll try to make any further changes laser-focused so as to fix problems without causing this sort of upheaval. Thanks for giving the update a chance!
Tried playing Cass again. Felt like shit, couldnt duel a stunned kassadin that i then exhausted. Great fucking rework. Really brilliant.
Scampy (NA)
: > Just remember that her being strong doesn't mean she's in a great place. There's still a ton of room for improvement. What I meant was that while the next iteration might be strong, don't get complacent and accept the rework just because it's powerful, because it's a loooooooong way from where it needs to be. Did this message not get through? It's sounding like people are writing comments before reading the whole post, or maybe I just wasn't specific enough.
Frankly I'd rather her not be strong in this iteration. It'd just give Stashu the "see guys, shes fine now" excuse to stop working on her. She'd remain shit, but they'd be able to say its fine cause she's competitive, doesnt matter if she isnt fun. I want Cass, not shit. But I'm not convinced Riot isnt perfectly okay with shit if itd winrate/pickrate is decent and its not "toxic," even if its as fun as watching paint dry.
: First thing's first, make Cassiopeia 'playable' again, or, at least as strong as the majority of her competitors. That's a big part of the goals in 4.21. Then we can talk about testing the longer term improvements, first on PBE, and if they stick, then to live. It won't happen instantly, but I'll keep visibility on what we're doing and make sure to always try to loop the community in.
We dont want to be "looped in" to the changes that youre happy with. We want you to not maje changes that we are not happy with. We want you to get the idea out of your head that you know what we want more than we do. We want you to stop patronizing us, ignoring our complaints and pushing what you want onto us. We told you what we want and you have yet to even attempt any of these changes. Stop trying to push shit to live as fast as you can and get something NOT shit onto PBE and--this might be hard for a Rioter to comprehend, so I'll use small words-- **IF WE DONT LIKE IT, DONT PUSH IT TO LIVE.**
Scampy (NA)
: Cassiopeia players, we're making progress!
Can't agree with you at all, sorry. Katarina has been my main since I started. Her rework pissed me off, but it wasn't even remotely as bad as this nonsense. Stashu has been nothing but a stubborn idiot throughout this "process." I'm with the others on this. IDGAF if the newest changes make her stronger if all that strength is in thr least fun part of her kit. It feels like shit to play her. She's even more PvE than most champs in lane and has a rotation that makes hotkey MMOs from the early 2000s look exciting by conparison. She is shit. Total shit. A bif steaming pile of shit. Cass **is** dead. She needs to be revived and Stashu is not the one to do it. Managing Deadly Cadence was fun. Zone control with W was fun. Hitting Qs and following up with Es for supplemental (NOT primary) damage was fun. Hitting Qs to poke my target down at range or push hard was fun. Waiting 40 minutes to be useful is not fun. Farming for 40 minutes is not fun. Farming with E and getting murdered cause im overextending to do so is not fun. Having to hit 4 or 5 skills to trade (not even duel, just trade) is not fun. Single target close range DPS on a super squishy is not fun. Being an AP version of an ADC is not fun (unless you scale multiplicatively, ie with AoE damage a la Vlad, Azir, Morde, Karthus. Notice all the late game APCs are AoE ppwerhouses. AoE is the AP version of crits. No/bad AoE=no multiplicative scaling=bad carry by design. No amount of tweaking will change that.) The reworked Cass is not fun and never will be. Not until you wise up and murder that passive, put the focus back on Q and abandon any single target lategame carry ideas you've ever had. Unless you want Twin Fangs to crit, she will never work in the way you want her to. Even if it did, it would still feel like shit to play.
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Stez007

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