: If Volibear is so easy as you claim then why don't you main him to Diamond? Or is there a reason you're posting on a level 8 account? It's almost like there's a lot more to a champion than basic mechanics, and calling champions "easy" has always been a stupid argument. Not to mention that with a reaction-based E interrupting dashes/his own Q and the new decision-making as to which Q+E combo to use, Volibear now has a higher skillcap/mechanical potential than a massive section of the roster. Not that it matters.
He's not wrong, though. It's not difficult to play Voli to his max potential, and the "skillcap" you mentioned is general game knowledge and macro play, which you need to learn on every champ. Don't act like it takes skill to use e mid flip, or wait until someone uses a dash to get the bonus damage, because it's not very difficult.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wuq,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tm3KzgWO,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-02-21T16:01:50.911+0000) > > The problem with your perspective in my eyes is you think there's nothing the defending team can do in 10 minutes. there isnt really. mind youre were not talking about bronze/silver/gold trash mmr here where people constantly throw overwhelming leads.
Idk who you've been playing with if you think diamond players don't throw all the time.
: Good gravy adc mains are the worst people i know. (Not satire??)
Except Trist and Twitch aren't even "stupidly broken." They're just strong.
: Good, fuck him and his overt self-importance. I watched his stream once but I knew as soon as I heard "top 50 dravens US" I knew he was just some douchebag that thinks hes some alphadog because he works out and is barely good. Everyone who follows him wants his dick so bad it makes me cringe. Pitiful to think that even women gamers like him, but that's life. They seem to always want some holier-than-thou shitfuck
> [{quoted}](name=SpiritOfOdysseus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5UjVyop3,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2017-09-19T18:32:06.752+0000) > > Good, fuck him and his overt self-importance. I watched his stream once but I knew as soon as I heard "top 50 dravens US" I knew he was just some douchebag that thinks hes some alphadog because he works out and is barely good. Everyone who follows him wants his dick so bad it makes me cringe. Pitiful to think that even women gamers like him, but that's life. They seem to always want some holier-than-thou shitfuck Except the "top 50 Draven US" was taken out of context. He's not bragging or acting entitled because he's a good player, he was proving to some haters that he's not "hardstuck diamond" like they said he was. That's why he said he already "proved a point," which was that he isn't hardstuck, and that he _can_ climb, contrary to what others said about him.
: U know all he has to do is fucking apologize but god forbid he admits how he was acting was childish.
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=5UjVyop3,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2017-09-19T15:42:09.793+0000) > > U know all he has to do is fucking apologize but god forbid he admits how he was acting was childish. God forbid you inform yourself and find out he _has_ apologized numerous times...
: it was to be expected really, just look at doombots, what's the difference between the lowest and highest difficulty? just a shit ton of stats nothing else so it's clear riot doesn't know how to make a higher difficulty without basically letting them cheat
What do you mean? How else is Riot supposed to make PvE more difficult?
: > [{quoted}](name=SwaggyMcGhee420,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FFjANjqp,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-08-24T23:47:56.831+0000) > > It's almost like hypercarries are actually able to carry games when they're ahead. yep she just 1v2 me and ahri at level 7... then 20 seconds later one shot ahri. why am i not surprised.
Assassins aren't the only ones who snowball. Half the champs in the game can turn around a 2v1 against a Shaco and his teammate if they're healthy and play it correctly.
: wow the enemy kat got fed and carried this game why am i not surprised
It's almost like hypercarries are actually able to carry games when they're ahead.
: I AM TEXAN.
: "why ranked is f'd up" according to diamond player
But one player can win you the game! The int feeding enemy mid laner.
: This is league of legends. When you're playing top lane, and your bot lane gives up 10 kills in 10 minutes, winning the game is out of your hands. It doesn't matter what you're doing in top lane.
You can always have a decent impact on the game, though. Of course not every game is winnable, but there's a reason some players are able to climb through plat and diamond with 80%+ winrates
: > Glass cannon itemization An item that reduces damage by 30% is NOT a glass cannon item.
: Guess what? Lee's RQQ is *far* more deadly that Vi's combo, and very rarely will a target even levels with Vi die from 1 rotation. For Lee, he is guaranteed to kill any non-tank. Lee IS broken, because he has a stupidly high playrate on a champion that is supposed to be extremely mechanical and difficult, yet maintains a 50% winrate. Lol, Diamond V, thats a good one. Like I didn't just look you up on op.gg for the truth. And if you're gonna lie, make it impressive. 80k is a joke, I have close to 750k with Vi. Feel free to look that up, by the way. And I will be proud of my gold, because even if it isn't great, its a fuckload better than you are. Claiming to be diamond doesn't change the fact that you needed your gold friend to carry your bronze ass up there.
> [{quoted}](name=NiceTryVi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kye7veBr,comment-id=00050000000300000000000100000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-02T20:17:38.419+0000) > > Vi is not better late. ??? Are you arguing against actual statistics? And where's your evidence that this account is boosted? Oh wait, you don't have any. Just "o wow I disagree with you u boosted..." >I have over 1000 Vi games. You think you have enough experience with her, but you don't. Lol. I also have plenty of experience with Vi, and not just in silver. Unlike you, though I have actually played Lee enough games to understand him. You don't think playing Vi in silver-diamond since s3 is enough experience? >Nice "main account" by the way, gimme a couple minutes and I could probably ask a diamond jungler friend if I could claim that was my account to a random person on the internet. Give me a good argument that it's not mine. Find a contradictory playstyle, inconsistency in summoner spells or item builds, or anything that actually gives evidence that it's not my account. Nvm, I can just log on to it and post here, even though you'll probably still be to stubborn to admit it.
: That is how the numbers work when his playrate has been so high for so long. There are tons of people with Lee in their repertoire, who play him from time to time in ranked. These people are experienced and decent, and may have just above a 50% winrate because Lee's skillcap is pretty high. Now there are also a ton of noobs, who will significantly lower Lee's winrate. Fortunately, There are a bunch of Lee mains, who, despite being less in number than the noobs, will play many many more games than the newer players, keeping his winrate about even. If the noobs continue to play Lee, they will eventually develop into the decent Lees, and may even turn into mains. That's how it works. A higher playrate doesn't mean a disproportionate amount of bad players just because the champ is hard to play, it just means there are a lot more mains and a lot more decent players. Vi is a lot easier to play. The most complex mechanic she has is maybe q-->flash. As for Lee, he has tons of different combos and plays he can potentially make that a good player accounts for that a bad one doesn't. If falling off at 35 minutes in is "too late to matter" Lee would have a 53+% winrate... He would win 58%-50% of his games, depending on how long they go. However, games with Lee actually do go over 35 minutes, which is why his winrate is still at %50. Ivern is braindead easy to play. He has just as many new players proportionately as Lee. If his winrate wasn't balanced by bad players, it would be well over %50. Why is that so hard to understand? Also, I enjoy your descent into a salty, insult filled tirade either because you don't have or don't understand the argument.
> [{quoted}](name=NiceTryVi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zKbufp8A,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:44:53.239+0000) > > A high play rate absolutely means a higher proportion of bad players, because say only 30% of all League players, for example, can play Lee well. So if the play rate goes up, you are getting a higher proportion bad players than good players, because most of the people good with him are probably already playing him, and the winrate should go down. This is where your argument doesn't comply with reality. Obviously there are more bad Lees than good ones. The good ones, however, play significantly more games as Lee than the bad ones, hence why they're the good Lees. This is the reason his winrate balances out. If a bad Lee player plays as much Lee as a good one. He will eventually get better. Also, just because a champ has a large playerbase it doesn't mean that a disproportionate amount of players are bad as compared to the playerbase of any other champ. Don't kid yourself. An auto attack reset isn't a complicated mechanic. Lee has many much more complicated mechanics; it's a fact. Obviously 35+ minutes isn't too late to matter, because both Lee and Vi have around a 50% winrate despite the difference in their scaling and early game winrates. Ivern is easy to play. I don't see where that contradicts my argument.
: That isn't how the numbers work. Lee is supposed to be hard like Vayne, very difficult, but very rewarding. When you get playrates at 40%, you are going to have a ton more inexperienced players than good ones. He is definitely NOT much harder than Vi. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Lee doesnt fall off until about 35 minutes, that's his 50% winrate time. so you think itys fair that he gets a 58% winrate at 20 minutes, to take until 35 min to fall off to 50%. Cause that utter horseshit. My metaphor makes perfect sense. He is op as fuck early game, and doesn't fall off until its too late to matter. Ivern is so op *because* of his low playrate. He has very few bad people playing him. Lee's winrate is not balanced by bad players. You so desperately want it to be, but its not. There are so few "bad" Lees because lee is hard to be bad at right now. Get that through your thick fucking skull.
That is how the numbers work when his playrate has been so high for so long. There are tons of people with Lee in their repertoire, who play him from time to time in ranked. These people are experienced and decent, and may have just above a 50% winrate because Lee's skillcap is pretty high. Now there are also a ton of noobs, who will significantly lower Lee's winrate. Fortunately, There are a bunch of Lee mains, who, despite being less in number than the noobs, will play many many more games than the newer players, keeping his winrate about even. If the noobs continue to play Lee, they will eventually develop into the decent Lees, and may even turn into mains. That's how it works. A higher playrate doesn't mean a disproportionate amount of bad players just because the champ is hard to play, it just means there are a lot more mains and a lot more decent players. Vi is a lot easier to play. The most complex mechanic she has is maybe q-->flash. As for Lee, he has tons of different combos and plays he can potentially make that a good player accounts for that a bad one doesn't. If falling off at 35 minutes in is "too late to matter" Lee would have a 53+% winrate... He would win 58%-50% of his games, depending on how long they go. However, games with Lee actually do go over 35 minutes, which is why his winrate is still at %50. Ivern is braindead easy to play. He has just as many new players proportionately as Lee. If his winrate wasn't balanced by bad players, it would be well over %50. Why is that so hard to understand? Also, I enjoy your descent into a salty, insult filled tirade either because you don't have or don't understand the argument.
: Guess what? Lee's RQQ is *far* more deadly that Vi's combo, and very rarely will a target even levels with Vi die from 1 rotation. For Lee, he is guaranteed to kill any non-tank. Lee IS broken, because he has a stupidly high playrate on a champion that is supposed to be extremely mechanical and difficult, yet maintains a 50% winrate. Lol, Diamond V, thats a good one. Like I didn't just look you up on op.gg for the truth. And if you're gonna lie, make it impressive. 80k is a joke, I have close to 750k with Vi. Feel free to look that up, by the way. And I will be proud of my gold, because even if it isn't great, its a fuckload better than you are. Claiming to be diamond doesn't change the fact that you needed your gold friend to carry your bronze ass up there.
If you play Vi with thunderlords, one combo during a powerspike phase (after tri force or warrior) will 1 shot a squishy. Yes, Lee has more early game burst, but you know who's better late? Vi. Did you really think my main account was one with 20 normal wins and a 60% winrate in high silver? It doesn't matter how much you've played Vi. I have plenty of experience on _both_ champs, and not just in high silver/low gold. I'm not trying to impress you with 80k mastery, I'm just saying I have plenty of experience with her, especially in ranked (150ish games). My main account is toothierosprey3.
: Lee's ult range is actually 3 times his melee range, at 375, so no, he doesn't have to get in melee range. Vi does have a long range on her ult to get to someone, but is not a "free kill" due to the fact that Vi has only 140 bonus AD ratio, unlike Lee's 200%. So there is that. I never said there were many, and the glaring weakness isn't people braking the lock, but people maneuvering Vi into a bad position because they can still do thing while shes charging. Lol its funny how you are shitting on silver players when you had to get your gold friend to pull you out of bronze, meanwhile I got to G3 last season. Only reason I'm still silver in SoloQ is because I'm finishing up classes and haven't had the time to climb like I will in the summer. Ori's ball is definitely not easy to track, and the Shockwave is very hard to avoid when she uses a delivery champ. I have played Lee, and against difficult enemies, I don't play him much because his playstyle is not to my taste. You, however, have never played him in ranked for a single game ever, or even a Normal this season. So don't try that bullshit. You have exactly zero lee and Vi experience, you know nothing about both of those champions as evident from your "arguments", and if Vi is so much easier, why does Lee have a much higher play rate and a slightly higher winrate? Lee is quite obviously easy to play, otherwise there wouldn't be so many playing him. The grand majority hates lee because he is a broken piece of shit, and If you payed any attention to my rank you would see that I hit G3 last season, am gold in flex, and have gold MMR in solo. And even if i didn't, you're silver too, so you have exactly zero room to talk. So don't try to play the superiority card, like you're so much better and smarter. I bet all your losses are because you get trash teams and your jungler never ganks you, too.
Wow, a massive 375 range! That's still close to melee range. Vi's ult isn't a free kill because of its damage, it's a free kill because it's a point and click long range hard cc that is impossible to prevent for most champs. Lee isn't broken. If he was, his winrate would be far above 50%. Vi's easier to pick up and do well with, and is much better late game. It's funny you try to invalidate my argument based on my experience and skill level when I'm actually diamond 5. I also have 160k mastery points with Lee and 80k mastery points with Vi. She's been in my top 3 most played champ in ranked since season 3. Don't be so proud of your gold, it's not impressive.
: If he is so hard to play competently, why does he have a 50% winrate with a 40% play rate. If he was so hard, surely he would have a much lower winrate? He is most definitely not much harder than Vi, and has way more damage. Saying he falls off late doesnt excuse the fact that he is so oppressive, he usually doesnt allow the game to go late. That's like putting a 20 year old in a fight against a 10 year old and saying, "oh, the 20 year old is gonna die first, so it balances out." He is so overpowered, and everyone but lee players and the people who suck him off know it. His statistics do show it. Just because you can;t understand the statistics doesn't mean they aren't there. While he has a 50% winrate, the fact that his playrate is so damn high shows he is too strong. The higher the playrate, the lower the winrate should be. This is because more inexperienced people are playing that champion than experienced as playrate rises. His average winrate is a problem because a champion that is supposed to be very mechanical means it should be below average due to its difficulty to begin with, and then there are a ton of people playing him. So it should be even lower, because you have a ton of people that don't know what they are doing. With a 40% play rate, Lee should have a sub-40% win rate, if he was as difficult to play well as people claim. We aren't complaining about Lee because he is popular. People complain because he is popular AND he is overpowered, AND overloaded. You must be as blind as Lee to not be able to see that.
He has a 50% winrate because he has good players who inflate his winrate, and bad players who bring it down. Most people who play Lee in ranked are semi-competent with him at least, so it makes sense that his winrate is around 50%. He definitely is much harder than Vi. His early game is his strongest point, and he falls off to make up for it. Your metaphor literally makes 0 sense. Lee pays for his strong early game with a weaker late game. That's literally how riot balances this game. If he was overpowered, new players would have a good winrate with him, and good Lee's would have a great winrate with him. But no, noobs have a bad winrate, and good Lees have a decent winrate. Playrate has nothing to do with his power. Just look at Ivern. He's disgustingly op, but his playrate is still kind of low. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand, but Lee's winrate is balanced by good and bad Lee players. Good Lees inflate his winrate by winning more games than they lose, and bad Lees bring it down. You may try to argue that there are many more noobs than there are good Lees, but the good Lees play much more Lee than the noobs, or else the noobs would be just as good.
: Again, no Vi is not even close to being as mobile as Lee. Her only mobility is her Q, which has a 2 second charge time for max distance. Lee's ult is a point and click that *cannot be stopped*, and only modified by using QSS/Cleasne AND Flash. Vi's ult target can still move until she gets there, and force her into a bad position. It is not her own fault, you massive asshat, as it could be a perfectly good play, and the target blows flash tog et over a wall, and the target's team is nearby, and uses the 1.25 sec animation to get to her. Lee's ult not only does more damage, but he stays where he is, and the animation for lee is only .25 seconds, while his target's is 1 second. Lee is definitely not much harder to play, and is Vi is way easier to do poorly with. You realize that fights start with a frontline, right? Lee jumps in with his W, ults the tank back through the team, and voila, he has hit AT LEAST 2 other targets due to how stacking up for fights work. If you don't stack up properly, in order to avoid the lee ult, then Lee's team wins anyway because they have the better positioning. And I don't know if you're blind or just stupid, but Ori can move the ball around, which is very hard to track, and easily get a 3+ man Shockwave. It is a very common occurrence that any half-decent player would have seen when an Orianna is in the game. If Lee ults the tank, its one of the best plays he can make, because the tank has probably taken some poke from Lee's team, and now he's at the back of his own team, at low hp, and the lee kick did all of the original damage, plus 18% if the tank's bonus HP to anyone else hit. So ulting just the carry is a stupid move if you could otherwise ult the tank into them, because you actually lose damage. Maybe next time do some research before you defend bullshit that the grand majority of the playerbase hates. They probably hate it for good reason.
I never said she was... Lee actually has to get into melee range to ult someone, unlike Vi, who can secure a free kill on someone with no flash by just pressing r. There aren't many champs with invulnerabilities or other ways to stop Vi's ult, so don't act like that's a glaring weakness. I guess in silver players just stack up and let Lee angle his kick to hit multiple targets, because avoiding it is soo difficult. You don't have to stack up to have good positioning, that's stupid. Ori's ball isn't very hard to track, lol. Her q range isn't very large, and you can see if it's on one of her engage champs very easily. I don't know if you're blind, but ori's ball is hard to track ??? I don't know if you've actually ever played Lee, because if you're against decent enemies, ulting the tank is just stupid in most situations. It's very difficult to ult the tank into someone, so stop acting like it's an easy play. Look. I know you love to defend your main, but as someone with plenty of experience on both champs, I can promise you Vi is much easier to play and do well with compared to Lee, who's actually very difficult to play effectively if your opponents aren't idiots. The grand majority hates Lee because they're silver (like you), and silvers are the type of players to stack up and let Lee angle his kick so that he can hit 4 players with it.
: You are so wrong it isn't even funny. Lee is *supposed* to be a highly mechanical champion, which is rewarded by high power when the mechanics are pulled off. What he actually is, is a low skillfloor, high skillcap champion, with the same effectiveness at both floor and ceiling. That is the issue. So if you still want to have a good winrate below 300 games, he needs to lose strength. Either way the ult is too strong, so some scaling needs to come off there, and in addition you need to either lose the wardhop, or lose some Q damage. His early ganks *should* be easier to avoid. He is so goddamn oppressive early, and there is no reason he should be besides riot wanting to make sure their flashy golden boy keeps in the meta, which about 85% of the community doesn't want *BECAUSE OF HIS UNREASONABLE DOMINATION OF THE JUNGLE.*
What do you mean? He's difficult to play competently. Trust me, I know (and he's definitely a lot harder to play than Vi). If he was an overpowered easy to play champ like you say he would have a much higher winrate. He's only oppressive early because he falls off late. More than 15% of junglers have him in their champ pool, and play him regularly, or else his platrate wouldn't be over 35%... He's not even overpowered. If he was, statistics would show it. But no, he has an average winrate while champs like Ivern has above a 55% winrate. But no, lets complain about Lee because he's popular, and act like he's the most problematic champ right now, when his winrate isn't even over 50%.
: "Isn't extremely good" Yet he maintains a 50% winrate despite being in 40% of games and about half of his playerbase playing him in less than 50 ranked games. His nerf was inconsequential, don't act like its hurt him. I never mentioned Azir, but now that you did, Lee is just as oppressive, seeing as he has a 58% win ratio if the game ends by 25 minutes. He is so oppressive in the early game it isn't even funny. I don't want him nerfed because I am sick of him, I want him nerfed because he is bullshit and so strong he has been dominating the jungle for 4 seasons now. I want his ward-hopping gone. No replacement. No more coddling. You want a champion that does a ton of damage and oppresses other junglers? You don't get a safety net. You want the wardhop? Then you pay for it with ult scaling and Q base and scaling. You can't have it all just because you want to say "but he's hard to plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!! WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!"
You don't and shouldn't need over 50 games of experience in ranked to have a 50%+ winrate. Everyone who plays Lee in ranked has most likely practiced him before, in normals, as well. If he lost his ward hopping he'd have to get massive buffs because 3/4 of his late game power is his ability to insec a carry, and without that he wouldn't be able to have an influence in late game. Also, his early ganks would be a lot easier to avoid.
: Actually, her Q is on a 16 sec CD at rank 1. Lee's is on an 11. Even at rank 5, Lee's still is on a shorter CD. Vi's skillshot requires to be charged for at least 2 seconds to not only reach full damage, but full range as well, which slows her in the process, AND enemies can see she is charging. Lee can throw it out instantly whenever he wants, as poke, as a brush checker, etc. If Vi uses her Q, she goes with it. If Lee's Q lands, he gets true sight, If Vi's lands, she doesn't. Vi's is weaker because while you can lock a target down, it does far less damage, and it only does 75% damage to anyone else hit. Lee's ult does more, forces movement 1000 units away, and anyone else hit takes not only 100% of the original damage, but also 18% of the kicked targets bonus HP. In addition, Vi's target can still move when ulted, and can force Vi into a bad position, such as under a tower or into their team. Lee only has to get in melee range, and can use his W to get away to a ward he can drop whenever he wants if there is no ally nearby. But please, tell me more about how difficult playing Lee Sin is, and how hard it is to hit that RQQ on the tank back through his team, and how all Lee players are gods.
I'm not comparing her q to Lee's, I'm just saying she's mobile as well, albeit not quite as much as Lee. Vi's ult is a point and click tool with a decent range that can only be prevented with effects like zhonyas, so I'd say it's pretty strong. It's Vi's own fault if her ult forces her into a bad situation, so that's not really a downside. I'm not arguing that Lee is less mobile, just that he's harder to play and easier to do poorly with. Also, no player that's half decent will group and let Lee angle his ult so that it hits multiple targets. That's like saying Ori's op just because she can nuke an entire team with a full combo if they're dumb enough to walk into it. If Lee ults a tank, it's a stupid play, because now he doesn't have his ult and the damage he did to the enemy tank is negligible.
: Shit give me an invite next season you can carry my ass through silver hell. Been stuck because of teammates that would rather bicker and piss off the rest of the team by buying 6 tears instead of finishing the game.
I don't even know if i'd be able to carry myself out...
: Yeah see, this is what I'm talking about. If she is stronger and easier to play, why don't people have better KDAs and winrates on her? Why doesn't she have the playrate of Lee? Because Vi requires aim and timing. Vi has mechanics that Lee doesnt. Lee has so much more safety as well, and can throw his q out whenever he wants. Vi's gapcloser is also her escape, and it has to charge, and she goes along with it. Vi does slightly more damage per rotation yes, but Lee's cooldowns are low enough that he gets more rotations out in the same time, about 33% more iirc. So Lee is actually stronger there, and his mobility makes him stronger, and his ult's CC is way better than Vi's so he is stronger there as well. And the fact that Lee's escape is not tied to his main damage dealer is even more on top of that. So don't try that bullshit.
Lol? What mechanics? Lee is so much more mechanically complex than Vi it's ridiculous. All you have to do is hit a q. Her q isn't even on a long cooldown either. Vi's ult is just as powerful as Lee's, because it can be used to gank and lock down targets. It's point and click, meaning you can't really mess up unless you take a stupid fight.
: I woudl also like to add my main to the list, who quite a few people have tried to tell me is broken as well: {{champion:254}} Assault and Battery RANGE: 800 COOLDOWN: 150 / 115 / 80 Let us also not forget the fact that lee has a 200% Bonus AD ratio on that ult, along with the extra damage if he hits someone else. That's the main issue I have with Lee. Vi, Hecarim, and Talon's ults all require them to jump in. Lee's requires him to get within melee range, granted, but so does Darius' so it isn't like Lee needs to make any risks with his ult, especially with his W to just jump away to wards. Which is even more BS because enemies cant see green wards, at least Braum or Kat have to jump to a visible unit so you can at least get a bit of an idea of their possibilities. And while Jax can wardjump, he has to use his main damaging to do so. Gotta love that favoritism, huh.
Vi's much stronger and easier to play than Lee imo.
Niaphim (EUW)
: I remember struggling in s3-s1 A LOT in previous seasons. It seems this elo is ruled by random mostly, as new players play against smurfs in placements. As soon as I got to g5-g4 mmr, games went so much smoother, and I even rode to plat. In my experience, gold was easier than high silver.
I had more trouble climbing through silver 1 and 2 than through plat. Teammates decide games for you, and don't let you carry them a lot of the time. Even if you're 5/0 as a mid laner they'll still play aggro bot and end up feeding instead of playing safe and letting you use your lead. I'm not even a good player, I just pick up free wins by playing passive when my team does good, and aggressive when they're losing.
Lugg (NA)
: 22% of people who play Lee have less than 100 games on him and they currently have a 54% win rate. And this is in Plat +. http://www.champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle So, as you can see, I'm completely right.
1st of all, champion.gg has been shown to be unreliable and inconsistent with other statistic sites and Riot's database. 2nd, you don't need 100+ games to be good at a champ. I haven't played 100+ games on any champ this season yet I have a 60-70% winrate with several over 50 or 60 games. Getting good enough to get a decent winrate with Lee doesn't take 100+ games, it just takes that many to fully master a champ.
: You dont need to explain or simplify your argument because its nonsense to begin with... > So there are about 10 Riven players (this doesn't represent pickrate, but just the amount of players that have Riven in their champion pool), and of these 10, let's say 6 are new to her. These 6 have a 40% winrate with her on average, because they don't know what they're doing. So what we have her is a dedicated Riven playerbase of 4, they have a good win rate... here come the influx of newbs dragging the win rate down... Kinda my argument, thank you for making my argument for me. Glad you understand it... Now what your problem seems to be is that you think there are just as many high skilled players on a champ as there are low skilled players on a champ. Till you conquer that delusion there is no hope for you. What really happens is there are 4 riven players that play her regularly, then 6 newbs jump on her, then 6 more, then 6 more ballooning her playerbase... those 18 newbs dont filter up to make an even bell-curve of half good and half bad riven players... doesnt work like that. It hasnt ever worked like that on any other champion ever except with Ritos overnight 60% win rate overbuffed nightmare champs like what they did with Xin and Sona at one point. This is the crux of your theory that an even number of experienced and inexperienced players are on a champion at any given time. The second most popular champion in the game should suffer more, especially when theyre supposed to mechanically complex and require skillful use of their kit to succeed. I dont even think hes strictly overpowered compared to some of the stuff Rito lets go patch after patch in the game. He certainly is over the average power of champs and in the top 30 of viability. For him to be played as much as he is then it means there is little else that can compete with his spot. That should be an obvious problem to anyone who isnt biased or arguing for attention. For something to be chose that much over everything else it either has to be the best, easiest, least bad, or something for it to be the most common choice. There is no arguing he isnt in a disproportionate amount of games.
The problem with your argument is that the good players play significantly more than the noobs on their champ in order to become good and to carry with them. It doesn't even matter if there's 5x as many noobs on Lee as experts (this is probably more proportionally accurate than 60/40 anyways), the Lee players will play 10x as many games to make up for the noob's winrates. Also, The more games that the noobs the better they get, eventually turning into decent Lee players. When 6 noobs jump into playing Lee, **then continue to play him**, they will eventually get better, helping his winrate when more noobs jump aboard. The noobs don't just stack up, because playing a champion makes you better with them, and, subsequently, raises your winrate with them. Noobs either get good with Lee, or give him up, which both raises his winrate as time goes on. And for your argument that he crowds out other picks, there are plenty more oppressive junglers that crowd out picks much better than he does. Ivern is still op, and tank junglers like Nunu trade early game pressure for dragon control and late game utility.
Lugg (NA)
: You are completely missing what everyone is saying. He is the MOST PLAYED jungler in the game right now with a positive win rate at every ranking. He is so OP right now that even noobs are carrying with him. New Lee players aren't even bringing down the win rate anymore. He is played in 42% of games right now because is total freelo. He needs serious nerfs to be anywhere close to balanced.
Where is your evidence that most players playing Lee Sin are noobs? My claim is that there are many people who frequently play Lee Sin who are good enough to balance his winrate with the bad players. You can't just make a statement that "new Lee players aren't even bringing down the winrate anymore" or "even noobs are carrying with him" without proof, because all I see are noob Lees losing more than the good Lees, which I don't see as a problem.
: You dont understand how anything works do you? With this logic, there will be as many people in Diamond as there are in Bronze. Diamond represents good players. Bronze represents not good players. The amount of good players will be equivalent to the amount of not good players. Same logic as: > The amount of players that are decent enough to get above a 50% winrate with Lee are about equal to the amount of players that are new at Lee Sin and bring his winrate down. Guess what? There arnt as many people in Diamond as there are in Bronze. https://na.op.gg/statistics/tier/ Check that graph out. Another point is, hes the 2nd most popular champ in the game... shouldnt people just be able to deal with him out of habit by now? Shouldnt he just be getting dumped on by his counters all the time? No to both of those, he IS THE META. Numbers and analysis show time and time again hes just a bit busted.
What are you even saying? Obviously you don't understand my argument, so I'm going to simplify it for you. Let's say League only has 100 players, to help quantify percentage. So there are about 10 Riven players (this doesn't represent pickrate, but just the amount of players that have Riven in their champion pool), and of these 10, let's say 6 are new to her. These 6 have a 40% winrate with her on average, because they don't know what they're doing. If the other 4 are better, with a 55% winrate on averge, then all players together have a mean winrate of 46%. This doesn't necessarily mean her winrate will be at 46%, though, because the better Riven players will undoubtedly play significantly more than the new Rivens, balancing her winrate around 50%. So would you say Riven with a 50% winrate is op? Probably not, just because her playrate is lower. The same logic applies to Lee Sin, though, no matter what his playrate is. Even if there are 4x as many players that play Lee, the 16 who have a 55% winrate and are more experienced will balance the winrate with the noobier players who have a 40% winrate. Popularity doesn't necessarily change the ratio of good and bad players, just increases the number of both proportionately.
Lugg (NA)
: If you play any champ regularly, you should have a good win rate with them. You can usually tell the broken/OP champs when people who don't play them regularly win 50% or better, which is what's going on with Lee right now.
> [{quoted}](name=Lugg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rTs440FX,comment-id=000100000008000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T20:02:42.643+0000) > > If you play any champ regularly, you should have a good win rate with them. Exactly. This is why Lee's winrate is balanced. The experienced Lee players inflate his winrate, and the new Lee players bring it down to 50%.
Lugg (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=SwaggyMcGhee420,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rTs440FX,comment-id=000100000008,timestamp=2017-04-19T15:37:28.007+0000) > > it just means that there are more players that have Lee in their champion pool. Sorry, but that's completely wrong. I have Lee in my champion pool but I don't play him. The stats all come from people who actually play him.
I don't mean just owning him, I mean that they play him regularly.
: Because he is in 40% of all games. 40% of jungle players are not lee sin experts.
I'm not saying 40% of players are Lee Sin experts... I'm saying the ratio of Lee Sin players that are good at the champ isn't disproportionate in comparison to the amount of players that are good at any other champ just because he's more popular. The amount of players that are decent enough to get above a 50% winrate with Lee are about equal to the amount of players that are new at Lee Sin and bring his winrate down. If he was op, even the noobs would be able to get above a 50% winrate, with his mains boosting it up even more, but that's not what's happening. The fact is that a lot of players have Lee in their champ pool, not that 80% or whatever of his players are new with him.
Zach xD (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=SwaggyMcGhee420,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rJH6Rkj9,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2017-04-18T16:05:00.195+0000) > > Well she didn't get a single defensive item until 24 minutes in. Name one bruiser that can't beat a squishy like Annie in a 1v1. Lee's not broken. You obviously just don't play around him... How does one play around Lee Sin?
Play more conservative early game, knowing your jungler will likely outscale him in the late game and that you will win unless you get behind.
: > [{quoted}](name=SwaggyMcGhee420,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rJH6Rkj9,comment-id=000c000200030001,timestamp=2017-04-19T15:18:14.471+0000) > > Yeah, I don't really know how competitive EUNE solo queue is, but this guy is making me think it's braindead easy to get to diamond there. Yeah, I guess EUNE server isn't on planet earth. We're somewhere far far away. And I did a rant as I said in the post at the end but everybody took this 1 fucking game on wukong to judge everything on me. I played thousands of games vs. lee and he always makes me think "wow fuck lee and his 4 types of escape". People like you and some other are the reason why I don't like people. You will insult/complain and what not on someone just because of 1 thing they said that you don't agree with. Not like I have over 5000 games on normals and ranked and I can say some stuff in my 3 years of playing the game and 1000++ games on wukong, rather than someone who has 0 games on him. Thanks for all the insults tho man, I really appreciate it, you came off as a really intelligent person there.
You're being hypocritical. You complain how people generalize your skill level because of one game, yet generalize the type of person I am based off of a few comments. I have also played over 5000 normal games, and have actually played Wukong in ranked this season. My main account is toothierosprey3.
: Not to mention that his playrate should alone be lowering it as it will include many less experinced players that should be draging it down to 40ish %.
How do you figure his winrate includes many less experienced players? Lee doesn't have a disproportionately low level of expert players just because he's popular. Lots of people play him and therefore he has a lot of good players that boost the winrate just as much as new Lee players lower it.
Lugg (NA)
: Actually no. When you have a highly mechanical champ at 50%, it's the equivalent of Master Yi being 65%. Highly mechanical champs always have higher outplay potential and therefore always need to have their win rates lower, because once you master them, they will easily be above 50% win rate.
That doesn't make any sense. You're assuming there's a higher percentage of Lee players that are beginners in comparison to the playerbase of any other champion. A higher playrate doesn't mean that there are more beginners, it just means that there are more players that have Lee in their champion pool.
: > [{quoted}](name=XTRMN00B1337,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rJH6Rkj9,comment-id=000c00020003,timestamp=2017-04-18T23:34:57.320+0000) > > Worst part is the dude is playing a fucking bruiser, while feeding, and building full ad. This looks like fucking bronze 3, not diamond 4. It's funny how you (an unranked, previous season silver) is telling me how to build and play wukong. If you actually bothered to play him even fucking once, you'd see building him anything than full ad is useless. I have over 1k games on wukong, but hey man, you have 0 games on him, please tell me more how do you play wukong. :)
It's funny how you think that just because you're diamond 4 that your opinion is automatically correct. Wukong is decent as a bruiser, but admittedly he's better full ad. However, you can't complain when a champ 1 shots you when you don't build a single defensive item. That's why people get GA or another defensive item later in the game with every assassin.
: Worst part is the dude is playing a fucking bruiser, while feeding, and building full ad. This looks like fucking bronze 3, not diamond 4.
Yeah, I don't really know how competitive EUNE solo queue is, but this guy is making me think it's braindead easy to get to diamond there.
: 2 damage items?? nah... i got 100-0ed by a darius that i actually beat in lane, but he got 3 mr items (i was playing ekko) and no damage at all. but yet the second he got 5 stacks of his passive on me he just ulted and byebye me :3
Darius is more of a juggernaut, who tends to have more base damage in his kit because he's supposed to build tank with maybe 1 damage item.
: > [{quoted}](name=WhoIsThisDude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rJH6Rkj9,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-04-18T13:28:33.980+0000) > > http://imgur.com/a/dEEiU > > "Well im 2/7/2. Better still build glass cannon then wonder why the 9/3 {{champion:64}} crushes me" > > Lol embarassing Are you retarded? That is a serious question because you didnt even reply to what i wrote. And of course the lee sin is going to dominate. Its lee sin. You have to be terrible to lose as lee sin. You completely ignore the fact that with 2 kills he one shot annie and me. But go one. Be an idiot.
> [{quoted}](name=zarxus1234,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rJH6Rkj9,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-18T13:32:58.376+0000) > > You completely ignore the fact that with 2 kills he one shot annie and me. But go one. Be an idiot. Irelia with tri force will 1 shot a squishy. Shaco with tri force will 1 shot a squishy. Camille with hydra will 1 shot a squishy. Darius with black cleaver will 1 shot a squishy. Gnar with black cleaver will 1 shot a squishy. Is there a bruiser who can't 1 shot a defenseless adc during one of their powerspikes?
: Deadman's gives damage and killing potential too with the speed up and slow on hit.
It's not really an offensive item, though.
: > [{quoted}](name=WhoIsThisDude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rJH6Rkj9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-18T13:14:58.617+0000) > > "The enemy team had a 22/6 Lee Sin but I built pure glass cannon on a melee diver anyway despite having 12 deaths. Why does he still do damage?" > > Lol lol its like that no matter what. a couple games ago the 2 kill lee sin 1 shot the 13 kill annie. and then one shot me. stop defending this broken champion.
Well she didn't get a single defensive item until 24 minutes in. Name one bruiser that can't beat a squishy like Annie in a 1v1. Lee's not broken. You obviously just don't play around him...
: ???? http://image.prntscr.com/image/0a8cab0a581140f080148d278f93751e.png
Yeah, noogies ignores the fact that pretty much any bruiser with 2 damage items can 100-0 an adc with 0 defense items mid to late game.
: Is 'high elo' exclusively for people who can carry themselves?
It's definitely a lot easier to climb if you can consistently carry, but if you are a reliable player who does well most of the time, you'll climb eventually, it will just take a little while longer.
: But everything you do IS out of YOUR control. You say you have things you can do for yourself. Those aren't things you do for yourself; those depend on your jgler and the enemy yasuo not being stupid. The only thing you do for yourself is not doing anything stupid. That's not counterplay.
What do you mean? You can counterbuild. You can play around his powerspikes. You can let him push you in for easy ganks. You can outplay him when he all ins. There is plenty of counterplay.
awdaf (NA)
: I really don't feel out played when I get killed by a Yasuo after 20 minutes
Not every champ has to "outplay" you to kill you. Sometimes, if you're weaker than them, you should just keep your distance from them. This game isn't decided purely on mechanics, there's also macro gameplay.
: > Not really, just make sure you put 12 points in the defensive mastery tree, and play safe and you'll be fine. Yeah, that's a good one. >If he's playing so aggressive that he's poking you consistently while you're under tower, he's a free gank. I don't feel like ganking is counterplay, because it depends on allies. You should always be able to do something for yourself. >Just identify his powerspikes. He's strong level one and two, then again at level 6. He gets a significant boost in power with Phantom Dancer or Infinity Edge. You also have to play around your powerspikes as well, forcing trades when you know you're stronger than him. Let's say Yas's initial power at level 1 is 3 and yours is 3. He goes to lvl 2, his power is at 5 and yours is at 4 Lvl 3-4 nothing changes he still has more power. Lvl 6 his power is at 7 and yours is as 6. This is just a example, and the numbers will be different, but the thing is, even with powerspikes, Yas usually has more power because of his kit. If he plays aggro, he'll often end up with more gold than you, allowing him to hit the power spikes earlier. > when you know you're stronger than him. What I'm saying is, what if you just aren't stronger than him, and he's constantly making you fall further behind and widening the gap by forcing you under turret? You should be able to do something then, besides waiting for the jg to gank.
> [{quoted}](name=VulDread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HyxEqIQf,comment-id=000e0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T20:20:09.120+0000) > I don't feel like ganking is counterplay, because it depends on allies. Many champs are oppressive in lane and difficult to beat in a 1v1, like Kennen. If they're playing aggressive your only option is to get a gank, usually. > You should always be able to do something for yourself. And you can, against Yasuo, unless you picked Twisted Fate or something against him. > Let's say Yas's initial power at level 1 is 3 and yours is 3. > > He goes to lvl 2, his power is at 5 and yours is at 4 > > Lvl 3-4 nothing changes he still has more power. > > Lvl 6 his power is at 7 and yours is as 6. > > This is just a example, and the numbers will be different, but the thing is, even with powerspikes, Yas usually has more power because of his kit. If he plays aggro, he'll often end up with more gold than you, allowing him to hit the power spikes earlier. If he makes a mistake, or falls behind early, he's much easier to punish than most champs. Also, even if he beats you in cs early, it's on you to keep that gold deficit to a minimum, so that your spikes put you ahead of him power-wise. > What I'm saying is, what if you just aren't stronger than him, and he's constantly making you fall further behind and widening the gap by forcing you under turret? > > You should be able to do something then, besides waiting for the jg to gank. There's plenty you can do against him. Yes, he may overpower you during the first two levels, but unless you do something stupid like let him cheese you or miss all your cs, you will still hit your powerspikes and will have an opportunity to fight back.
: They have plenty of "mechanical counters" yes, really i'd just call them weaknesses. except they then have 2 buffers for each weakness they have. This is why they don't have hard counters. The designs which don't provide buffers for their own weaknesses are the ones which have hard counters. Then you have these, generally newer, designs which are a completely rounded kit which offers very few actual counters. Think of it like one of those children's toys where you put the shapes through the holes. If a shape (champ) fits through your designed hole, then they can counter you. Some shapes can fit through each other's holes, meaning both can counter the other, except it's up to the player to maximize that aspect of their kit to win. Lee sin and Yasuo are designed with such *extreme* shapes, that very few other champions can actually fit into their slot. Yet they can slip past most other champion's slots they've just got to orient themselves correctly. When shapes were more uniform, and less extreme, there was much more overlap and much fewer cases where one shape could fit into another's slot, without the other also fitting into theirs'. (i hope that made sense. I'm pretty sleep deprived atm)
Yeah, I think get your analogy. But if they really had two buffers for every weakness, either their winrates would be positive against every champ or they would be weaker than every other champ, neither of which I believe you're claiming. Currently, champs like Annie and Kennen have very high winrates against Yasuo, leading me to believe he really does have hard counters. Undoubtedly, Yasuo has some matchups that can feel unfair, but, in general, he's actually relatively easy to play around, especially if you have the opportunity to pick after him.
: If you get doran's shield, you only having 1 health pot really screws you over. I wasn't talking about Lee laning, but jgl. That's what the post is about. Yeah here's the thing, you can't farm under tower without still being harassed by him. If you outrange him, sure, it's easy. He can also roam while you're trapped under turret as it slowly gets whittled down. Since he won't just let you free farm under turret, you're being outcsed by a champ that already will outscale you most of the time.
> [{quoted}](name=VulDread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HyxEqIQf,comment-id=000e00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T19:25:59.663+0000) > > If you get doran's shield, you only having 1 health pot really screws you over. Not really, just make sure you put 12 points in the defensive mastery tree, and play safe and you'll be fine. > I wasn't talking about Lee laning, but jgl. That's what the post is about. Yeah, there are few junglers with hard counters anyways so the best you can do is play around his strengths and weaknesses, just like any other jungler. > Yeah here's the thing, you can't farm under tower without still being harassed by him. If you outrange him, sure, it's easy. If he's playing so aggressive that he's poking you consistently while you're under tower, he's a free gank. > He can also roam while you're trapped under turret as it slowly gets whittled down. Since he won't just let you free farm under turret, you're being outcsed by a champ that already will outscale you most of the time. Just identify his powerspikes. He's strong level one and two, then again at level 6. He gets a significant boost in power with Phantom Dancer or Infinity Edge. You also have to play around your powerspikes as well, forcing trades when you know you're stronger than him.
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SwaggyMcGhee420

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