rujitra (NA)
: People shouldn't have to mute you because you can't follow the rules and control yourself. You weren't punished because you didn't say please. You were punished for being demanding and insulting. If you can't see the difference, I suspect we will see you back here soon with another restriction or ban. It's not that hard, simply have some self control.
lol... Follow the rules... Where are these rules? I've never seen these rules in the client. Given that Riot hands out suspensions and bans for violating these rules, they should probably put them in a place where people can actually find them. If you can point me to the rules, I would appreciate it.
rujitra (NA)
: No, you aren't allowed to insult them and make demands and boss them around.
I agree. those things are not nice. if only someone invented a mute button... Emotions run high and the game happens fast. Expecting fluffy language is not reasonable. Restrictions and bans because someone asks another person to do something without saying 'Please' and 'Thank you' is unreasonable.
: An overall negative attitude and flaming your team. Is this your first chat restriction?
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Lux OP (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=zPOOPz,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T16:47:42.775+0000) > > 1) meta or role or whatever do not disqualify someone from being able to discuss behavior problems. The only time they matter is if meta or role somehow is a legitimate excuse for being toxic and we all know that is not true. There is NO excuse for being toxic even in the face of trolling, off-meta pick, not communicating, inting, etc. A lack of understanding of meta and role means a lack of perspective on situations where the toxicity did not originate from the person who used "toxic speech" but from a person who is disrupting gameplay. If the only measure of toxicity you look at is speech, then you are running a chat program, not a competitive video game. In competitive live events like Super Smash Bro's, do you think that anyone would blame a player for saying "FUCK OFF" to someone who unplugged their controller during a team 2v2? The player who removed the controller would be removed from the tournament and probably banned from future tournaments. The players whose games were messed with might be given a caution but probably everyone in the audience would have been booing so loudly that nobody noticed the expletives. There is a logic to that situation that the IFS completely disregards in favor of being a fucking chat moderating program, which has no place in a competitive online game. Now, if someone tripped over a cord and screwed it up accidentally (or played ranked without having any idea what they were doing) they still might get yelled at because they messed up a game, but if it was an accident they probably wouldn't be thrown out of the tournament and all future tournaments. However, again, people getting upset and vocalizing it are not in the wrong, they're just reacting like normal people to an abnormal situation. Some people curse more than others. It does not mean they aren't justified in being angry. Luckily, in League, we can mute them and we don't need a referee or an usher to remove them. > 2) That is the unfortunate side-effect of perma-banning someone I will agree with you. However, the number of banned players making new acct to be toxic as opposed to those banned players moving on to other games are small enough that Rito will accept that niche consquence. If you further weight that number against leaving those toxic players in general pool disrupting their established player base as opposed to new player pool, there is no reason not to permanently removed them from the general pool. No one on this board or Rito claimed to have a perfect system. Rito analyzes the risks and the effects of the system and take the lesser of the bigger evil (leaving toxic players in gen pop). I really don't think Riot is keeping track. They just really don't want to admit they are wrong since stonewalling complaints by directing people to a FAQ team that can't/won't do anything has worked so far. But I think with this last wave of 3rd party mistake bans, people actually know what it feels like to lose access to the content they spent time and money unlocking, and maybe take it a little more seriously now. There are better ways to stop people who use chat for purely toxic reasons than permabanning their accounts. Like disabling chat entirely. > 3) The IFS shows OP his most recent validly reported game. It happened to be 1 game. It does not mean there are not many other validly reported games in OP's history that is not shown. Whatever the case, IFS is still trash since it isn't designed to deal with the frustration naturally arising from other problems in Riot's report and punishment system (such as the complete lack of actual game awareness in the system). This should have been nipped in the bud before it was ever implemented and now that we have the gift of hindsight it needs to be addressed. It is encouraging all of the wrong things and making the game very unfriendly toward new players in the process.
Kei143 (NA)
: Asking for reports counts as harassment against you. You calling people newb doesn't help. Giving up is pretty much shunned upon. On top of that, the Japanese server is the most sensitive to toxicity amongst all servers. You probably would have gotten away with it for a few more games if you were on EUNE or LAN.
Thanks. This is helpful. I find it incredible that there are clear 'donts' but Riot leaves for us to figure out the hard way.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-11T11:32:59.724+0000)Sweet Sayonara: newb support I picked this single line because it's indicative of a larger trend in the game. Spending the entire game belittling someone else for their play isn't permitted, whether you use insulting language to do so or simply normal, generally inoffensive language in a manner that still belittles that player. You have done the latter, and a game spent almost exclusively complaining about a teammate being unskilled or useless will indeed earn you a punishment.
1. My comment was in response to the top lane asking "what is going on bot lane? tower down at 8 mins". The reason: support had spent the previous 3 mins in mid lane and I was pushed out of lane. One person ruined an entire game for four other. 2. Are you saying definitely that saying "newb [role]" is objective grounds for restriction or banishment? Are you saying that in 100% of cases when someone says "newb support" they will be punished? Is this Riot's official position? Don't waste my time with conjecture. 3. The only difference between "generally inoffensive language in a manner that belittles others" and calling out others when they intentionally ruin the game for the rest of their team is your point of few (in other words, it's subjective). The point I have tried to make is that a punishment system that can completely ban an account - with real money at stake - should be free of subjectivity and clear to all. That is simply not what we have here and I have been inappropriately punished twice now and Riot has taken 200 USD of my money. Not cool.
Rioter Comments
: I'm happy to help you understand. Your ban is not a case of a ban for one egregious game. It is the result of constant, slight, negativity. This is your 6th penalty for the exact same thing. It doesn't help that you are criticising them in another language. Here are some examples of your 'norm' : FireNovaStar: open your eyes plz FireNovaStar: what are you waiting for?? FireNovaStar (Warwick): wtf was that swupport??? gg this team FireNovaStar (Warwick): adc - do you know how to auto attack? FireNovaStar (Vayne): please practice before playing ranked FireNovaStar (Vayne): newb trash FireNovaStar (Vayne): worthless team FireNovaStar (Vayne): what a terrible team FireNovaStar (Warwick): fuk FireNovaStar (Warwick): gg FireNovaStar (Warwick): bott FireNovaStar (Warwick): worthless FireNovaStar (Warwick): tank everything bot FireNovaStar (Warwick): and you guys cant hit shit FireNovaStar (Akali): LOOK AT YOUR MAP YOU TARD FireNovaStar (Akali): this team is so clueless As you can see, this wasn't the case of one single game. It is the case of being repeatedly warned about your behavior, and not changing it. Thus, each penalty was escalated to the next tier. These are all penalties that would result in a chat restriction on their own.
Thank you. There are certainly things in these examples that I would agree are objectively negative and warrant a chat ban. I will not make the mistake of making similar comments again. Believe it or not, looking at my comments here, I am quite embarrassed and disappointing in myself. I still don't know if a perma ban was required, but I did need a good knock to my head. Couple questions: 1. Did you put this together on your own, going through my games individually? Or does the system pull this together for you? 2. If the system pulls this together for you, I wonder why it can't be provided as the reason for my Ban? Just seems like it would make a much stronger case for my banishment than the one example I was given. We could avoid much of this back and forth. Thanks again for taking the time. See you on the Rift.
: > [{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=A9EHnwuc,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-01-23T01:08:22.661+0000) > > December 2017 That would do it. It's not that far off from your 14 day ban. The sooner, the less leeway you get.
Yea. Seems reasonable that that would play a role. To me it just highlights a key issue: what exactly am I doing wrong? I look at my chat, and I don't see anything obviously wrong. Hence I'm probably making the same mistakes over and over again. And mind you, Riot won't actually tell me what specifically I did wrong. I've only heard a couple guesses on this forum. Nothing concrete.
: > [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=A9EHnwuc,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-22T17:40:07.259+0000) > > This is where people get caught up - trying to look for “key words”. As i explained, the problem here isn’t the words, but the attitude - you could easily have had such an attitude without the words “fkng” or “wtf”. The system does not look for words except hate speech or “kys” (and similar) - it looks at chat holistically to determine the “tone” and attitude of it. alright so even a sentence that displays light humor such as "Bot, don't dive **I literally watched Kha go swiggity mode in the fog-of-war**" Isn't enough for the system to make a judgement call on how a human beings attitude is, but for another human it clearly shows I'm not worked up over the match. I can't be assertive when pointing something out without being told that because I didn't "sound" a certain way through my chat-logs, that I was given a chat-restriction? attitude/keywords aside, the way the system works could in-fact use some changes. I am a human being, and just like every player in the community that Isn't toxic, we all communicate differently. for what I have to say to someone to sound toxic when I have no means at all of being toxic just means I can't type at all. If I'm ever in a match with you on my team, and you make some honest mistakes (Because you're human, and it's okay man) then I'll throw in some recommendations. If you report me because you think my attitude is crap when I'm actually in a great mood, and enjoying the match, then obliviously report me. If you misunderstand my words that would in-fact, be pretty hard to decipher how I'm feeling (Since there are in-fact players who have been positive through-and-through to their team-mates in a match, but threw the nearest object out of rage against them in reality), then I understand, but to leave it up to a system to judge how I feel towards players using positive remarks, or to eliminate any use of "key words" based off my entire chat log from a match, game-play, pings, ect. there seems to be inaccuracy. Do you know how the system works? I thought only Rioters knew how it worked, but if you do, then cool beans. If not, then (giving an opinion in no way made to be toxic) I feel like you're backing something without having any information, but if you do have proof of how the system works, please inform me. But this attitude thing from the system sounds iffy. This whole thing reminds me of a skit: it's easy to misunderstand someone all match as being "mean," but if they aren't ACTUALLY being mean, then what gives?
Love that Key & Peele video. Not only is it hilarious, but I don't think you could have better illustrated the problem with Riot's police software. Good find.
: You might think you were being ambiguous, but if that were the case, how'd you even get reported? I think when you're being, or trying to be, ambiguous in the game, it's going to be taken negatively; otherwise, you would have been explicit in whatever other positive thing you could have said. >don't you think this should have been communicated to me sooner It wasn't when you got your chat restrictions or 2-week ban? It doesn't really sound like you've gone to support until now.
I wasn't trying to be anything. I made comments that in retrospect were ambiguous. it's definitely a lesson learned, but unfortunately it came too late. I didn't go to support until now. Why should I need to go to support to find out the basic structure/rules of the chat function? Rules and expectations should be clearly communicated in advance of a ban.
: It could be the slightly authoritative caps you occasionally used. This is nowhere near what it takes to be a permaban in my opinion, but I have to agree with you that the current moderation system is beyond broken.
For you it is authoritative. For me it is using a text size that people will see in the bottom left corner of their screen as is flies by with in the rest of there chat. Again, it is only when you assume that someone is a bad person or trolling that the language I used takes on a negative tone.
: When was your 14 day ban
Chermorg (NA)
: So, you seem to be confused. Chat is not a trap. It's just expected you hold yourself to the decency of public standard. If you're playing on the Japanese servers, you're expected to behave as Japanese would in public. That culture *does* tend to have a much higher level of politeness when in public or dealing with strangers - so it's not unreasonable that you were too harsh and blunt with them for their liking. As the support agent said, each server has slightly different levels of punishable behavior depending on what the community of that server wants and the culture. You seem to have a great command of the English language - which leads me to believe you're possibly a native speaker from either the US, UK, or Europe - all of which have this blunt style of attitude with others. That type of attitude may not fly in Japan - and that's your fault for not conforming to the standards of the environment you're in. Furthermore, you say that they can take away your account at any moment for any reason - and while this is technically true, they do not do this. They do not lock or ban accounts without reason - ever. You were **given** an explanation - you just don't like hearing it. The bottom line is your behavior was not in line with that expected of someone on the JP servers, and as such you were given warnings and then a permanent ban. You weren't banned for "simply making suggestions" - you were banned for the attitude you had in doing so.
Hi Chermorg. Thanks for your reply. I don't visit the forums often (I probably should have... might have avoided this misunderstanding) so not quite sure what an Advisor does. I'll just assume you have some connection with Riot and that overcoming your bias will be unlikely. But here goes... Can I ask you to reread my chat log? This time... don't make any assumptions about who I am or where I come from. In fact, imagine I am a young, innocent 13 year old school girl with not one bad bone in my body. Go ahead.. I'll give you a second... Now imagine I am a 45 year old drunk, pissed off that my wife left me and all I have left is League... Again.. I'll give you a second... What's the point? Just about any sentence in the english language can have "attitude" if the reader is biased against it. If that is incorrect, and I used specific words that convey a negative attitude, please feel free to point them out. On the other hand, there most certainly is such a thing as objectively negative language. Using swear words or hate speech particularly when it is used to put others down is never okay. But as you can see, I didn't use any objectively negative language. At worst the language in my chat log is ambiguous. Personally, I don't agree with punishing ambiguous language, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say we need to. What sounds reasonable to you - a 5 day chat restriction? 10 day chat restriction? even a 5 day playing ban? Well apparently Riot believes a full life-time account ban is the right way to go. Ouch. Even if you thought punishment was appropriate, I think you would agree that a full account ban is extreme, no? Regarding play and chat on the Japanese server, I have lived and worked in Asia for the past 10 years. I am familiar with Japanese culture and actually love visiting Tokyo and other Japanese cities. Having said that, I must say, not until two days ago (after receiving the ban) had I ever heard that "each server has slightly different levels of punishable behavior depending on what the community of that server wants and the culture". Not only is that information no where in the LOL game or LOL client (I couldn't find it), but it is incredibly hard to find on the web. Riot doesn't even tell you that when you get a chat restriction. I only found out after sending emails back and fourth with the LOL support person. Considering that this very well could have been a key reason my account was banned (and loss of 200 USD worth of RP), don't you think this should have been communicated to me sooner? Say when I switch servers or when I receive my first chat restriction? Furthermore, am I to believe that diversity in LOL is not encouraged? That if you play on a specific server, all of your actions and communications should assimilate? I did grow up in the US (as you astutely pointed out) and I most definitely am more direct than your average Japanese player. In the vast majority of games, I have found this to be a positive for the team, not a negative. Being more direct and assertive means the team communicates better and works better as a team (Asians do a ton of things well, but not everything, ). When I wasn't banned or chat restricted, I picked up a ton of Leadership Honor. A system that punishes nonconformity - and especially when that system is hardly (if at all) communicated, is just plain wrong. And yes, chat is a trap. As long as Riot continues to believe that everyone is a troll and assume the worst in people, even the most level-headed, team-orientated comments will be misconstrued and lead to an unceremonious banishment. I assume there is zero I can do about my ban now, so rather than ask you to speak to Riot on my behalf, I would appreciate it if you can encourage them to update and improve their system. An easy fix is to treat ambiguous language differently. Instead of giving a full account ban, continue to give smaller chat restrictions or playing bans. Easy, no? Thank you for listening. I really appreciate it. Cheers
: how did you transfer your account to JP? I thought JP wasn't included among the list of regions you can transfer to? (also what happened to that feature? can't seem to find it in the client anymore). Did they allow you to transfer your skins when you transferred your account from NA to JP the last time? Maybe it's because you told your teammates to open their eyes which could be seen as racial slur? XD
Transfer to JP was fine (including skins). It's there in the client. Keep looking! It is South East Asia and China that I can't transfer to. Because both locations have third parties hosting the servers. Definitely didn't mean anything by my eyes comment. I even said plz!
: The sad state of toxicity in the community... on both sides.
Agreed. The instant feedback system seems to have significant problems which are negatively impacting reasonable players. Seems like there are simple changes they could make to improve the system. For example, for instances where one player is consistently giving feedback to the team ("why fight there? You should fight under tower!" etc) and is reported for it, a short ban can be applied. Any permanent bans for chat functions should be reserved for horrible language (racial slurs, hate speech, etc). And should always be subject to review, especially when accounts have purchased RP.
: I bet it was the passive aggressive sigh
And this might be my biggest issue of all (that I didn't mention in my post). Why are there punishments for how people receive your chat/comments/criticism? I get it - if I use hate speech to put someone down, I should be punished. But if I give constructive criticism to someone... Let say I say "Please pay more attention! That guy was right behind you the whole time!" and this person takes it the wrong way, does that really justify a ban? I don't think so at all. We can't be responsible for how people interpret our comments.
: Did you have a 14 day Ban or Chat restrictions before?
: Received permanent BAN for no good reason
** HERE IS THE FEEDBACK FROM RIOT SUPPORT --------------------------------** Komari again. Thank you for your reply and I apologize to confuse you by my words... Let me answer as accurate as possible again to you, so please see my comments in your questions below. _How am I supposed to learn or improve if the only example provided doesn't clearly demonstrate or point to incorrect behavior/words? I agree that we should be respectful to all players at all times. Was I not doing that?_ Unfortunately we can't point exactly words or behavior of the players due to the reason that I told you last time. But remember, " Community rule " is the standard that our Instant Feedback System(IFS) constantly updates by the reports from the players in each server, and not open to the public, but it bases on " Summoner's Code ". Since we are not allowed to disclose our community rule, so please listen as just a personal opinion, you should be little bit more careful in your wording when you gave advice for other players. Some people would catch it kind of as high handed behavior and they'd cower. _Can you please point me to the Japanese Community Rules?_ Please keep in mind that the rule and standard in a server have been drew up by the all players who have been playing in this server, not Riot. Players in each servers have different sense of values, and that also could be the reason why there is difference between the " Community rule " in each servers. All players in the server need to follow the community rule in there at any time, but this is absolutely bases on " Summoner's Code " and we have adjusted our rule not to be inappropriate all the time. _You mentioned that "Including when the player was using Ping to stir someone's anger, or player was seems to be missing attitude of cooperativeness, or something that is against our community rule." Are you saying that is part of the reason why my account received a ban?_ I'm sorry that it makes you confused... I just wanted to tell you that IFS audit all of behaviors in game, not only the words in the chat. I'm not saying like " You were using Ping improperly and this is why you got banned! ". Again, sorry for the confusion. _Moving my RP to another account_ You can create a new account in League, but it is not allowed to move any contents from the account that is permanently suspended. With regards to refunds, we do not provide refunds for accounts which players are warned about in the Terms of use. You can find the full policy at our Terms of Use on the website: What is the process to receive an official review of my ban? I'm sorry that I can't tell you what behavior exactly caused this suspension, but please note that the factor caused the suspension is not only 1 game. The suspension is as a result of IFS found unsportsmanlike behavior from multiple games you played. **END ------------------------** In all honesty, this is what I have learned: 1. Don't bother spending real money on RP. Riot can take away my account at any moment for essentially any reason and they don't owe my a explanation in the slightest. It's a waste of money. 2. Chat is a trap. A couple months back I was playing a game of LOL and this random person's name was "chatting equals ban" (or something like that). I laughed at the time, but only now do I realise how accurate it is. When simply making suggestions on how other players can play to improve team performance gets you permanently banned, why bother with chat? So now I will simply create another account, never use chat again, and never spend another dollar on RP. Cheers!
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Sweet Sayonara

Level 7 (NA)
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