: I didn't know that about {{item:3153}} and it's not in the item description in the Custom Item Set list nor the website. http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/items/ The wiki says Minimum 10. Where did the other 5 go? http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Blade_of_the_Ruined_King
You're... not wrong. Where did the other 5 go
: Let's be honest, Trinity force is probably going to get nerfed
remove some CDR and _** BRING THE CRIT BACK.**_ And bring Atma's impaler back while you're at it. Gangplank mains will thank you. Some Garen players will thank you. Me my and my bot lane Bruiser ADCs will be forever in your debt... For real, Theres absolutely no way to build defensive stats and crit anymore. I personally don't appreciate that.
morris1 (EUNE)
: I could see the first argument working out, but the second one seems pretty useless to me. And if you give up objective control and camp smite buffs for another summoner spell it seems like a worth trade personally. And since you don't have smite you can't play WW with red smite to duel people or Udyr with blue smite to chase or escape.
I love how Riot says they dont enforce metas, but then force junglers to take smite and buy jungle items, or else be completely useless for the entire game.
: Riot, Stop Giving Every Champ The Same Ult
The majority of ultimates in this game are either aoe cc for starting a fight or "big damage" for finishing one. A third common one is going into some sorta super mode. Creating terrain, rewinding time, and teamwide teleports are still very novel concepts
: I wonder how many people from League will leave Overwatch when they find out it'll have Dynamic Queue for it's ranked.
Well ya see, people on Overwatch have friends... Jokes aside, there was no expectation for solo Q, so why would be upset?
Arcyyy (NA)
: PSA: Asking you to build an item isn't infringing your rights.
1. No one ever asks nicely. 2. It easily comes across as "I know how to play your champion better than you. 3. Whatever build this guy is using worked for him in other games. So yeah keep that in mind. I played a lot of crit Darius until recently and It was amazing. And every game my team would tell me I'm building him wrong, usually after THEY died and were tabbing, desperately looking for someone to blame. I don't tell people what to build because I know how annoying it is, and because league is such a toxic game anything I say will seem as malicious as possible.
Sahn Uzal (EUW)
: To be fair, Mordekaiser always builds Rylais {{item:3116}} which makes it harder to walk away from him like one could VS Illaoi =P
Not to mention Illaoi's damage is her tentacles, which don't move, and Mordekaisers damage is his mace, which he carries with him. If you run away from Mordekaiser and he catches up, he's still going to be doing full damage to you. If you run away from Illaoi after she ults, and she catches up, you're still away from her tentacles.
spombjop (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=GrReaper96,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGvzWb2n,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-13T03:04:30.948+0000) > > {{item:3156}} core item on graves
{{item:3157}} Core Item on like, every mage. Man it sucks how graves can buy defensive stats while doing a bunch of damage right? {{item:3027}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3030}} {{item:3089}} Well would ya look at that, I accidentally built 1,200 hp while building 700 AP and got this nifty manashield to boot. If you wanna talk about itemization, defensive stats are tacked on to like, half of the mage items available. And if you're losing to graves because of {{item:3156}} then you've been losing a lot lately: {{champion:238}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:121}} and just about every other AD solo laner and jungler has been building it.
: Excuse me, what stun does LeBlanc have?
Oh no, leblanc doesn't have a stun, you're right. It's not like she can snare graves outside of his auto attack range for _basically_ the same effect...
Rozair (NA)
: in the time it takes an ap mid to get him to below 40% health he has most likely already killed you
Then I'm gonna say the AP mid failed. Graves can do a lot of damage at once. So can any burst mage, but they can do it at longer range. Most mages, like Annie, Leblanc, Brand etc, also have a stun. So if graves survives your initial burst and stun, then I think he deserves the kill. Personally, I think graves is balanced. His autos have a lot of drawbacks, and as tanky as he can be, you can turn off his tankiness by ccing him early in the fight.
Zacster (NA)
: Bronze LCS
If I were Riot, I would have a Bronze League Heroes invitational! Ten random Bronze players (who've demonstrated sportsmanlike conduct) would be flown out to an arena to compete against each other and win prizes. And I'd have them headline for the LCS.
: In some cases, sure. But that's mostly cause people would rather be 21/3/10 than be the person who took 6 towers since you don't get as much recognition for that. You see it in URF when the enemy team flames you for splitpushing to victory instead of teamfighting their burst comp. Even the announcer for "Pentakill" is more energetic than the "your team has destroyed an inhibitor" despite the inhib being wildly more important than chasing down that Bard who escaped with 20 health. I think it mostly depends on who your enemy is. If your enemy doesn't zone you or punish you for being melee, yeah, you can get away with it. You can get away with a Poppy Anivia bot lane too since once they have wall and heroic charge, they can murder anyone who gets to close, does it make it a good pick, depends on the enemy team.
Okay so first of all, people do try very hard to zone and punish you for being melee. They do. You take Garen / Darius bottom lane and you will be auto-attacked as soon as you leave tower range and until you return to it. The people I fight are not dumb. It's not something I get away with because my enemies are idiots. They try very hard to shut me down in lane, and in team fights, but for a variety of reasons they are unable to. I would be more than willing to demonstrate it to you in a game. Really. But I've given up on melee carries due to the incoming nerfs to Trinity Force. Namely, they're removing the crit chance from it, which is pretty much core to this entire build. Trinity force (and Atmas impaler) were the only items where you could buy both defense and critical strike, and now that won't be possible. It's become pretty apparent to me that most people who've posted can't imagine what I'm describing to them and won't try it themselves. Add me and we'll play, but really this entire thread is about to become irrelevant.
: >I've done the math elsewhere, but late game , after activating his blood rage, **CAN** do 2,820 damage pretty much instantly, with just his W and ultimate. the issue is that he has no mobillity, is melee and needs the stacks, so atleast aa+w+q+aa+aa, and 3000hp without much resis is not tanky, most 4+item adc can nearly kill you from fullhealth in the duration of a morgana binding with that gear, a full mage combo will hit you for over half your health from a safe distance, if your opponents play it probperly, you will hardly ever get in range alive unless your taric does some miracle work while the rest of your team manages to keep the locked down so you reach them, and even then the reward is at max just as high as for an ranged adc. i don't say it's impossible to win with melees bot, but it's straight inferior to a ranged adc, puting you at a disadvantage. Just how playing shyvana top is possible, you can win, and there sure is a dedicated shyvanaplayer in high diamond that has succes with it, but it generally is less effective than most other toplaners and that player most likely would have more succes if he had put as much effort in another champion.
Who wouldn't die after getting Morgana snared and auto'd by a 4 item vayne for 3 seconds? In fact, I think having half my health left over after eating a full round of spells from a mage is an argument FOR melee carries if anything lol Honestly, I think the reward for playing melee carries is higher than for ranged carries. I'm not saying ranged carries are terrible. But I'm just defending melee carries so that people who are interested don't give up just because they haven't seen it in the pro scene. The fact is, there is at least one diamond player in this very discussion that is making bot lane melee adc's work. If it can work for him, then it can work for everyone else.
: Not sure what infos you have on me, as i mostly play normals and my ranked stats aren't much. My mmr in normals is about low diamond(estimated based on the rank of my opponents), which is quite a step from low gold. http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/2646229924/21733237?tab=overview http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/26501877 Also, pant leona is just one example, i've played many different melees bot so far, renekton, darius and garen amongst them. There are different kinds of melee carrie lanes. Ther are kill-lanes that work via snowballing the lane and carrying that lead into the midgame, and pant leona is(or well was befor the pant nerfs) a very terrifying lane, his passive alows for rather save csing whil tradeing back with Q, and the level 2 all in is already deadly, while his ult allows to carrie his advantage to other lanes. Then there are true melee carrie lanes like yasuo or yi, they are rather though to play, though they have some all in potential especially at 6, and they scale great into lategame. And then there are the juggernaut lanes you play, wich are a more lower risk, lower reward version of the killlanes. You don't really need to win lane, you are somewhat save though you do get builled a bit, and you have some all-in potential. With those you have a powerfull midgame, but lategame you fall off drastically compared to a wellplayed adc, you're either to vulnerable or don't have compareable dps, so just like the killanes you will simply get outscaled if you can't convert your midgame spike. New taric might help a bit though, that guy wasn't around duering my duo bot days, though old taric made up for massive killlanes. Depending on your comp it can still work out, but it generally needs far more effort to make a melee carrie work and most of the time it works best if they transition into the usuall frontline they would have been as toplaners and rely on some high dps mage and the likes of a toplane graves to bring the damage in lategame teamfights. There is a reason why meleecarries bot have never been a thing in proplay.
I already looked at your profile lol Yeah you see the problem, Kill lanes require you to 1. Snowball and 2. end the game quickly. If the enemy just manages to not die in lane (say by picking {{champion:40}} x{{champion:18}} ) then you're already "behind". Not to mention that even if you do get fed, a champion like Panth will eventually fall off. I used to do kill lanes in previous seasons too, before I played ranked. I actually used to use Panth and Leona too, but once it stopped working I moved on to different ideas. My next idea was to take {{champion:23}} {{champion:11}} and pre-rework {{champion:114}} into bot lane. I, like you, decided that it could work, but it was "hard to do" which really meant that one single mistake would see you **detonate** at the start of every team fight. It was too easy to mess up. As far as Juggernauts not having the scaling of a an ADC, I'm supposing you mean raw damage and such. Well I'm gonna have to disagree. Juggernauts are designed to do a lot of damage with just one or two damage items. With my build you have 4 damage items and a decent amount of crit. I've done the math elsewhere, but late game {{champion:122}} , after activating his blood rage, can do 2,820 damage pretty much instantly, with just his W and ultimate. He can literally execute squishies from full health one after the other, and grind through tanks by virtue of his enhanced AD and free armor pen. This is while still having over 3,000 hp with Steraks and other such. {{champion:75}} scales infinitely, Free AD from his ultimate, shreds armor. {{champion:48}} has an attack speed boost on par with a ranged ADC and an auto attack reset that boosts his AD, also shreds armor. I could go on but the point is that they do have enough damage to carry games. And yes, you can always take ranged people in other lanes if you'd like. P.S. theres actually a diamond guy in this discussion that plays Morde and other melee ADCs. If he can do it in diamond, then it's viable for the vast majority of people who play league of legends.
Zerolera (NA)
: You actually have a stronger laning phase playing the champs you've mentioned so you should win. The issue isn't your laning phase it's when games start hitting the 35 - 40 minute mark and you have 3+ tanks on the opposing team. No matter what you may think - none of your mentioned champions will be able to deal enough damage to burst through that amount of health. The role of ADC is to have the most impact late game when everyone finishes their build. If you can win before that then the ADC is not needed but if you can't you'll end being at a huge disadvantage.
I'm not entirely sure that's true though. In fact, I personally never had any problem cutting through tanky champions with any of the carries I mentioned. I'm not gonna go through all of them, but take {{champion:122}} ------------------------- With this build he will have 200 Bonus AD, and 341 AD total late game. Now lets say he gets into a team fight. Lets assume his team is screening for him and he's playing well, and he pops his passive, Noxian Might. Darius would then have 541 AD. At this point most tanks won't want to fight you, because half of your auto attacks are hitting for 1,300 damage and ignoring 25% of their armor. From there, a W - > R combo would deal 1,568 damage from the attack itself + 352 from trinity force + 900 true damage for a total of 2,820_ in two abilities_. If they are still not dead, there is a 435 damage bleed afterward, and you can still auto attack them. This means you kill anything that's not a tank instantly, and anything that is a tank won't be able to stand near you for long.
: The ability to safely take turrets is the reason you run a ranged ADC at all. That doesn't explain why your ranged ADC needs to be in the bot lane.
Thank you for saying this Now that ranged carries like {{champion:104}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:203}} and {{champion:42}} are going all over the place, you don't necessarily need another ADC in bot lane
: One quick comment - take relic shield if your a melee bot lane, it pays for itself on you eventually, and very quickly on your support. Ranged ADC's should take it for damage oriented supports, in all honesty. I'm a diamond ADC Morde main, and play several other melee ADC's bot lane as well.
I knew I'd get some naysayers but I'm actually loving how much advice I'm getting in this thread. Thanks for the tip!
barbuzzo (EUW)
: What about {{champion:420}} ? By the requirements you listed she should work (she has some sustain, damaging abilities, AA reset, survivability), she scales incredibly with AD items and she has some range on her abilities reducing the inconvenience of being melee. I'm not so sure she would gain much by the crits given by your build, maybe getting CDR instead would be better... Perhaps even {{item:3147}}? Now I want to try it :D What do you think about it? Any advice you can give me?
Yeah Actually! I've tried AD Illaoi in the past. She does scale incredibly well with AD and you are correct, if you can land your skill shots you really don't have to risk getting into melee range too often. I would suggest you turn your {{item:2053}} into a {{item:3512}} as early as possible, and... yeah, I would more or less skip buying crit items (Opt for {{item:3071}} over {{item:3078}} for example), even though at the time I still bought crit. Normally when I play Illaoi as carry, I set my ZZ'rot portal in a lane, and push to the enemy tower. If the enemy hugs their tower, you use her E to weaken them (A full AD Illaoi can get to the point where 70% or more of the damage is transferred from the ghost to the target). This leaves them with two unsatisfying options, let their tower take damage from Zz'rot minions, or attack you and your portal. At which point you ult. This works even better the more ZZ'rot portals you have on your team, since Illaoi can protect an area so well. I personally stopped playing it after they allowed your team-mates to assist you in hunting tentacles, and now that the curse only lasts a fraction of the time, I'm not sure you'd be able to cause enough havoc when sieging a turret. Furthermore, unlike say, {{champion:48}} , who can just walk under your turret and kill you, {{champion:420}} has trouble running down opponents even with my build, because of how she relies on her tentacles to really do damage. But honestly, I say go for it!
: No offence, but your gold/silver. In High elos, things get WAAAAAY harder for melee carries, as their main issues are kiteing, peeling and coordination of the opposing team, and all those things have been prooven to grow alot with elo. Back in S2/3, i played quite some melee carries bot, with great succes, but once my mmr reached a certain point, we(my sup and i) either oppted for strong laneing doe like pant+leona, but our opponents played it very save, had junglerbackup when we dared to dive and just outscaled us for teamfights, and on more teamfight focused picks we just got bullied hard in lane as our opponents finally knew how to abuse their range advantage for harras and lanepressure while disengageing any tradeattempt from our side properly. Enjoy it while you can, but don't expect it to keep working as you climb up.
People said the same thing when I was unranked ("basically bronze"), and then I made a post when I was Silver III and people said it wouldn't work, So now I'm finally gold and I'm seeing the exact same argument. My plat friend thought that melee carries wouldn't work either. So we duo'd and probably played against people worse than him and better than me. Still did great. So I may continue climbing, my goal was just to get the gold border this season. But if I do decide to climb, it'll be because I want the plat border, not because I think it will change anyone's mind lol. -------------------------------------------- As far as melee carries go, I would have never suggested {{champion:80}} /{{champion:89}} . Pantheon has almost none of the things I said I look for in a melee carry (and as you noticed, he doesn't scale well), and If you looked at my suggested supports, Leona isn't one I'd recommend starting with. What you had was a kill lane, which I'd argue, is fundamentally different. And about your opponents "finally knowing how to use their range advantage" and having a lot of jungler back up when you attempt to dive, these are things I'm experiencing already. If you'd like to pick up melee carries again, maybe impress your friends, or see how far you can take it this season, I might even be able to help you. You're definitely higher rank than me, but it looks like I've been playing more melee carries, and more recently.
: That only proves my point. Mordekaiser, unlike other melee carries, CAN safely take towers because of his dragon, which is ranged and does massive tower damage.
Okay well, notice that although they've changed almost everything else about Mordekaiser, he still has his Dragon, but he's no longer pick or ban in bot lane. I completely understand what your saying, I'm just saying there's always been more to consider out of an ADC than how safe they are, or even how quickly they take turrets.
: towers aren't weak now, they buffed them a lot last patch.
They boosted their ramping damage, I read the notes, and I've played with them. As the game goes on, towers become less and less relevant. Endgame, they hardly matter. This has always been the case in league. It's far more noticeable with melee carries though.
: As a Tristana player, I would like to debate that fact. I take Tristana cause even if my team is doing bad, give me a few seconds with a tower and it's going down. Vayne is more common, but she's feast or famine unless the game is stalled, and a lot of times it's famine unless I take Soraka so the enemy focuses me instead of her.
My point was that people are willing to trade the long range safety for DPS in some cases, seeing as Vayne is more common than Tristana.
: The issue is that DPS isn't the reason you have a ranged ADC. It's their ability to safely take turrets.
{{champion:82}} , despite being neither ranged nor AD, dominated bot lane immediately after his rework just by virtue of kicking everyone's ass. I'm just saying it may be a little bit of both. If it was all about taking towers safely, we'd see nothing but {{champion:18}} and yet we have far more {{champion:67}} players.
: Trundle and Darius could possibly work? Darius with his Chain dunking could bring enough damage to make up for not having a normal ADC And Trundle if the enemy only has one tank...because if Trundle ults that one tank you probably dont need that much DPS to kill the tank There is still the problem of pushing towers though
The way a melee carry usually pushes towers is by diving any defenders, and then taking the tower while they are backed and/or dead. Consider a normal situation where your ranged ADC is "poking a tower down". Why is the enemy team hugging the tower instead of coming to kill you? It's probably because they're down a guy, low on health, or just otherwise would not win a straight up fight with you. If that's the case a melee carry should just go for the dive. A melee carry, while not a tank, will still have some of the most health or resistances on his team. Also, anyone whose fought the melee carries I mentioned know that they have abilities that make them pretty good at tower diving in general, especially weakened enemies. And If you're still having trouble diving the enemy, just turn your {{item:2053}} into an {{item:3056}} Alternatively, you could always invest in a {{item:3512}}. If your enemy tries to stall you out in a lane and it's working, you just plant your portal in a side lane and let it push. They either split up to deal with it, and you dive the remaining defenders, or your portal pushes down their towers. P.S. if you actually are looking to try this, I'd suggest you start with Garen. Trundle and Darius work, but, for some reason, people have had an easier time using Garen.
: You are not durable enough to dive with that build. You'll be at a huge disadvantage. How about this - why not try it out in a ranked game? Then you'll see whether it works or not.
I have, actually. I've "tried" this out more times than I can count at this point. In fact my last ranked game was as ADC Darius, which I won. Last time I posted about melee carries, I was low/mid silver. I'm gold now. I personally know it works, it's not "new" for me anymore, but it might be new to some people here, so I thought I'd share.
: problem is, the juggernauts can be easier to counter/shutdown and harder to support than ranged adc. all you need is some champions with good kiting and disengage. a {{champion:40}} and/or {{champion:34}} on the enemy team and they can shut these champions completely out of a fight. if you dont get a darius, nasus in range of anyone who isnt a tank or garen to his villain, then theyre not gonna be able to carry. its much harder to stay out of range of a marksman and neuter him completely than keeping a melee carry out of a fight. that is to say, its not impossible but these champions need very specific support. they need either a cc machine of an engage tank like leona or sejuani, or they need someone like {{champion:53}} or {{champion:412}} to get an enemy in range for them or quickly get them into the right spot (thresh lantern). its often easier to protect a marksman than it is to get a darius into the enemy team. the next problems are objective control (ranged adc are better at sieging turrets - you still need someone whos good at taking down turrets from a distance on your team). and the fact that these champions are as much level depenent as gold dependent and are put behnd in xp in a duo lane.
Well, you sorta argued both sides here... On one hand, a person could pick a champ to keep you out of the fight, like {{champion:40}} . On the other hand, a person could pick a champ to get you into the fight like {{champion:412}} And then you have some champions that can easily do both, like {{champion:25}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:44}} Also, I would argue that due to your speed from items and runes, if they disengage you can usually reengage pretty easily. But you're right, it is a team game. ------------------------------------------------------ As far as objective control, Melee carries are far superior at diving than their ranged counterparts. Since turrets are so weak, if your enemy tries to stall out underneath one and waveclear, you could just decide to force a fight. While melee carries are not tanks, they have more armor and resistances than ranged carries, and don't mind taking a few turret shots while they kill someone, and odds are if they're letting you "siege" their turret without attacking you, it's because they know they'd lose a straight up fight. ---------------------------------------- As far as melee carries being more level than gold dependent, I'd argue that is hard to quantify. Some melee carries have massive benefits from building bonus AD, like {{champion:122}} , and some ranged carries benefit greatly from levels, like{{champion:236}} and{{champion:81}}
: Then you get 3 shot by the enemy Jhin or Vayne because you're an immobile squishy melee. One of the 3 is usually a dealbreaker for a carry role, but all 3 at once??? A Thresh, Janna or Blitz will easily shut you down in lane and Vayne, who is usually getting bullied, is now the lane bully. You never want a Vayne as a lane bully. Also, a question: how does your team do against a Ziggs if you have no ranged ADC?
If you followed the build I gave you as Garen, you'd have 150 armor, and over 3,000 hp with a Steraks, and an ability that reduces the damage you take by 30%. That is not "3 shot by Jhin" squishy. Furthermore I think it's kinda funny that you mentioned Blitz as a counter to this, because blitz can only draw you closer to his team, which is the opposite of what he will want to do lol. > Also, a question: how does your team do against a Ziggs if you have no ranged ADC? I turn my raptors cloak into an ohmwrecker after getting my trinity force. Afterward, if I ever push to a tower and Ziggs attempts to stop me, I shut the tower off and deal with him. In fact, in general, if I ever feel like the enemy can be beaten if I forced a fight, I don't let a tower stop me. Towers are awfully weak this season, and while melee carries are not tanks, they are durable enough to tower dive pretty much whenever they want to.
: that's really costly though. I think a melee carry that is not as kiteable would be good that way you don't need two or 3 3500+ gold items. like even akali she's not that bad ad imo. rengar has ranged which might work. oops i meant gnar
Good points. I'm honestly wanting to give those two a shot now. Thanks for the suggestion! However, as far as those Items being too costly, The core of a melee carry build is {{item:2053}} {{item:3078}} and {{item:3009}} . which is not more expensive than {{item:3086}} {{item:3031}} and {{item:3006}} . While the infinity edge would most certainly be your next item, I'd argue that only those three Items are really "core."
: i did this today. team called every role except adc, and i'm a miserable adc so i went yorick. nobody on the team got upset or anything and we won pretty easily. yorick is a great contender for the adc melee role with his ult and item path that is naturally anti-adc. it really depends on the teamcomp i think. there should be a decent mix of ranged and melee champs. in that particular game we had a jungle nidalee and mid teemo, so doing a melee adc made a lot of sense.
You know I had not considered Yorrick! I'll have to give him a shot, he has literally everything I mentioned in the post; Sustain, an auto attack reset, and survivability.
: Generally in a solo Lane, the ranged champ has a disadvantage if you can close on them. In bot Lane, a good support will peel and prevent you from closing in them. The other thing about bot Lane is that two champs are channeling there harass into a single target. This shuts down even some of the shorter ranged champs. An ezreal top might run out of mana before he can harass a nasus out of Lane, but an ezreal +bard won't.
You also have a support though. Who should be healing you, Zoning, or harassing the enemy. I mean saying Nasus cant fight Ezreal and Bard together is about as fair as saying Jinx is bad because she can't fight Lucian and Braum by herself.
: First of all, that's only for one champ, yeah {{champion:75}} and {{champion:48}} might get away with it (even if {{champion:75}} has almost no farm because of how easy it is to zone him from cs) but they still have plenty of other problems (like how they are best at splitpushing, which means your team wont have an adc to do damage in a teamfight) and how the build you suggested is way to squshy for {{champion:75}} (also was raptors cloak added by mistake, because you shouldn't have incomplete items in your final build) and how those two are the only ones you listed with sustain that's good early game that you'll be able to reliably use (I don't count {{champion:122}} because no good adc will stand there and let themselves be hit, and melee supports wont need to go in to be range).
I left raptors cloak in because either item it builds into can be good. You can't really go wrong. Ohmwrecker lets you dive turrets which is helpful for melee champions, but ZZ'rot portal is just a great item in its own right, especially for a guy whose purpose is more or less to push down towers. And the build IS squishier than a top laner build. Your goal is to hit people mostly, not_ get_ hit. You won't survive with this build if you're the first one in, diving their ADC in a team fight. But this build does leave you just beefy enough to put down some damage and survive. You'll still need a proper tank or initiator, yes. And as far as Darius not being reliable sustain, his is harder to use, but if you start with movement speed quints and build the items I suggested, you will always be faster than your opponent. So If they come close to poke you, you should be able to Q them back, and even if you miss most of them, it's a very powerful heal. As far as not having "an adc to do damage in a teamfight", I'm just gonna say that you should stick with your team if they need you.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hullabaloo907,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lFEawX4z,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-11T23:34:53.778+0000) > > Against decent opponents, a melee ADC would get pretty much no farm in Lane. The ADC would constantly poke them, while the support would peel them/poke them as well That and the build suggested screams please kite me because I'm not very tanky and have an awful teamfight with no farm because I was unable to do anything against an adc as {{champion:75}} or {{champion:58}}. That and none of these champs do anywhere near the amount of damage as an adc unless the enemy team is horrible, aside from {{champion:75}}, but you will have 100 stacks midgame at best.
I have no problem with people trying to kite me. The speed you get from {{item:3009}} {{item:3078}} and {{item:2053}} means you'll easily have about 100 ms over a normal champ, without using your phage passive or accounting for movement speed quints. This is, of course, without considering each champions gap closer either (Whither, Slice n Dice, Apprehend, etc). You're borderline inescapable. And farming is seriously not that hard guys.
: Against decent opponents, a melee ADC would get pretty much no farm in Lane. The ADC would constantly poke them, while the support would peel them/poke them as well
Common argument. Everyone usually assumes the ADCs I fight are bad. The truth is, yes, they ADC and support will constanly poke you. I just recently had a game against a sona Ezreal lane. They took every opportunity to shoot me in the face. The melee carries I mentioned have great innate sustain. Just imagine Nasus going top against Ezreal, and yeah you can imagine Nasus sustaining through all of that damage. It's the same idea in bottom lane, except you also have to account for the enemy support. The idea is that your own support will assist you, either by healing you when you get hit, or attacking the enemy when they attack you.
Rioter Comments
: AOE skills should not be so heavily punished by not landing them on multiple ppl.
Says who? If fiddlesticks sends a crow on a lone target he's punished. If Brand ults a lone target he's punished.
: > [{quoted}](name=Szunray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nEsPOO6P,comment-id=00030003000000000002000200010000,timestamp=2016-05-03T15:06:06.620+0000) > > I dunno, not only does Lamb and wolf not really feel like "two beings as one" or "two halves of the same coin", they probably have one of the weakest partnerships in the league of legends in general. Wait have you played Kindred? Nearly every command (attack, move, etc.) has both Lamb and Wolf talking, often finishing each other's sentences. Their mind is one, but their spirit/being is two. When you summon and "play" the champion, you are controlling both Lamb and Wolf, which is why the champion is titled "Kindred". This is the most unity between any pair in the game perhaps besides Nunu and Willump.
Have I played kindred: ... Yes. A lot. Edit: I see what your point is now. Kindred indeed has excellent voice acting. But uh, I don't think lamb and wolf are even on the same page half the time. As far as their mind being one, it seems like the two don't even have the same memory (weird for two people that are together at all times) My point was that besides that, she doesn't much convey the concept of a two person champion.
: I'm personally not offended because it's historical context is a dead organization of no value beyond the study of history itself. That and anyone brandishing it is just putting on a big beacon that let's you know how silly they are. It's better to let me know up front that way I know how to deal with them, rather than be surprised half way through that I'm dealing with a derp XD.
I mean it's an organization that terrorized my parents and my parents parents. I know that the guys using it aren't actually in the KKK and don't consider how serious a person could take something like that, so I'm not actually offended. I'm saying this as a guy who is known to make rape jokes. On one hand, I obviously am not offended personally. But if Riot decided to delete my Clan's "RAP3" tag, I wouldn't try and defend myself, I know it'd be offensive (My clan's current tag is DYKK by the way, same principle)
: What about Nunu? Or Sejuani?
Or Illaoi, who without Nagakabouros might as well go home. Or Orianna. I mean she was created as a pair, and the Ball does most all of the work, and_ the ball is impatient_. I dunno, not only does Lamb and wolf not really feel like "two beings as one" or "two halves of the same coin", they probably have one of the weakest partnerships in the league of legends in general. I'm all for calling Kindred "Her" or just calling her Lamb. Just like we refer to Quinn and Valor as Quinn.
: Any object only has as much value as what you give it. If you choose to make those letters stand for something, then it will. If you choose to ignore it, then it means nothing to you.
This line of reasoning does not work in any level of society. Wear your red-white-and black swastika, and explain to your teacher/ boss/ lawyer/ mom/ employees that it's really just a symbol that people assign meaning to and I assure you, nobody will be having your shit that day. And for good reason.
: What's wrong with the Knicker Kicker Kids? P.S. Offense is taken, not given.
If you try hard enough you can offend anyone. I can see how some people _wouldn't _ be offended by the KKK tag though.
: Well that *is* kind of what OP was trying to get across. Nerf Tank Ekko, buff AP Ekko.
It's not buffing ap Ekko though. If anything, it's nerfing AP Ekko along with Tank Ekko, unless you somehow build over 600 ap in the time it would take you to hit the appropriate level
oh really (EUNE)
: Riot makes the game more appealing to kids, the same they'll do with vlad's abilities (most likely) making them look just like some red coloured magic instead of blood magic.
... like, all of the lore is being made into some games-workshop esque grimdark business and they're making the game for kids? They change sion from Arnold Schwarzenegger zombie into a gore hungry engine of pain and suffering. Gangplank goes from pirate mc pirate to bone carving corsair with no love of living things and a thirst for revenge that will drown his hometown in blood. The last two adcs they released were 1. A death obsessed serial killer and 2. The physical embodiment of death. But I too yearn for the adult themes of the past, with champions like rammus and teemo Tl dr; I feel riot is doing anything BUT that.
: Give me a good reason not to dynamic boost people
Dynamic Q gives you harder opposition if you're in a premade. Do people not realize this? Like the few times I've been solo, facing a premade, (which almost never actually happens in my experience), the premade was made up of significantly worse players. Anyway, I usually play Dynamic queue with friends. With a duo, I sometimes fought other duos. With a group of 3, or four, our opposition either gets significantly harder, or we fight other premades of the same size. When I managed to get a full team of five we fight other full teams of five almost exclusively. Either way, we all win about half of our games. To contrast, played solo recently, (About six games) climbed _much faster_ than with my friends, and many of them are ranked higher than me (probably because with my friends, I will get matched against plat level players, and solo, I get matched with other silvers). I seriously don't agree with the idea that you're going to get boosted by playing in Dynamic Queue. 4 Gold ones and a Silver five are probably going to lose. A lot. I cannot imagine them winning more than half of their games, meaning the silver isn't going to climb much and some of the golds are going to drop. I'm not saying Dynamic Queue is pointless either. I think duoing with higher ranked people and playing against higher ranked people helps you learn the game better than facing other people making the same mistakes as you. If you said you hate dynamic queue because you hate being the fifth on a four man pre-made, I'd say thats a legitimate concern. But all this talk of boosting is overblown.
: New Rammus Splash
... How big is Rammus?
: Tank Ekko literally has everything you can want from a champion.
When they made Ekko they wanted to make this skirmisher assassin who didn't just Le-Blink you out of existance. I think that was a unique idea, and I think they should nerf Ekko's base damages to basically zero, and crank up his scalings to match. But you realize this is a problem with assassins in general yes? Once tank Ekko is gone, Tank Fizz will take his place. Or Tank Akali. Or tank elise, which the community has more or less accepted by this point. You might even remember when tank Katarina was a thing (though I never had to deal with that personally), or Bruiser Nidalee.... Many assassins have high enough base damages that you can build full tank and still assassinate a carry, and it's extremely annoying since most of these assassins are borderline inescapable. You might say "Oh it's not as bad, those assassins kits arent as overloaded" (which I'd argue he is only SLIGHTLY worse than Tank Elise) But that's not going to be any real consolation when Tank Yi ruins your game. It's not JUST Ekko.
Arakadia (NA)
: So we should remove it? I NEVER see people use OhmWrecker...
And people hadn't built Zzrot until recently
: I harshly disagree on Renekton's Dash>Stun>Auto>Q>Dash combo requiring him to fight you.
I also disagree with Riven's Knockup > Auto >Stun > Auto >Shield/Dash combo requiring her to fight you, but the OP is trying to prove a point here. Back in his day, you took Darius top, and beat the enemy's dick in with your superior dick smashing champion. Top laners these days with their pansy arsed "ranged harass" can't appreciate the experience of having their dicks beaten in by real top laners. P.S. When I started writing this, I imagined OP would be some jaded, Olaf player, pining for the good ol days. But they play Teemo. I don't even know what to make of this.
: On your first thing, the main reason for why mages need levels more than adcs, is that spells gain damage from levels and scale with items. Autoattacks scale soley from items (i know base stats but its not that huge). Levels do Help adc's, but they help mages more
See I don't get this reasoning for a few reasons. For one, what do you mean by auto attacks scaling solely from items? Tristana's autos gain range the more s he levels. Draven's autos straight up do more damage the more he levels his spinning axes. Then there's ADC's who _really_ rely on levels. Corki's power spike at level six is massive, and Ezreal gains just as much if not more base damages from leveling up as any midlane mage. But we see Corki and Ez midlane sometimes. But we really don't see Lucian mid, and he also gets pretty huge benefits from leveling up. Take his Q which goes from 80 damage at rank 1 to 200 damage at rank 5. Also, the _scaling_ on it increases (from 60% bonus ad to 120% bonus ad). furthermore, his passive increases in damage the more he levels. A level 6 Lucian at Full build does _significantly less_ damage than a level 18 Lucian at full build. So there are "caster" adcs that can benefit from going mid. But there are also "Marksman" mages that could benefit from going bot and farming for gold. Take Cass. Her auto-attack is her spell, and any AP she builds is increased due to her passive. She honestly needs to rush some sort of mana item just to be able to really threaten her lane opponent early on. She seems like the kind of AP marksman you'd want to protect with a support early game. Or Take Azir, an AP carry who autoattacks. Like his "auto-attacks" scale with AP, which in a lot of ways makes him like a textbook, bot lane carry. And Jesus, even postulating that there MAY be another way to play this game other than mandatory bot lane ADC has already netted me two downvotes. It's a player enforced meta. There are so many ways to win a game of league, but anything off meta that loses is considered bad, and anything off meta that wins is considered "cheese" P.S. I really wanted to bring up ADC's that don't scale well with items (Such a Vayne, who has barely any AD ratios and relies on her ultimate ranks in her silver bolts to kill anyone, or Kallista, who's literally does less damage with her autoattacks than most any champion building the same items) but you get the point. Theres over 100 champs in this game, with a ton of items to build. Blanket statements like "ADCs scale with items and APCs scale with levels" are way, way too general.
Xanes (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NdnVXmAE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-02T23:24:41.908+0000) > > its also, because there always has to be at least 1 duo lane in the game, and the most efficient duo lane comp that beats every other combination so far is a farming ranged adc + 0cs support. That is actually the biggest reason why there is always an ADC botlane. You simply can't run anything else. ADC and Support are the only classes that can, atleast consistently, operate on a level deficit. Mages/Assassins need levels for the base damage, Tanks/Bruisers need it for the base stats/damage. If it was just the need for consistens physical damage we would see some variety now that ADCs can be played in Mid/Top/Jungle. But we don't. If you've ever tried a "non-meta" botlane like double bruiser/mage bot you know it can work. But it also just feels....much weaker than running it in a solo lane. You are lacking that extra bit of burst/tankiness that the champion needs to reliably perform. If you want to change the botlane meta you need to make fundamental changes to game mechanics, for example: - Make ADCs just as reliant on levels as everyone else - Give full experience to everyone when minions die I'm sure Riot is aware of this problem, hence the Mordekaiser "experiment". As soon as his experience advantage got nerfed he became unviable.
> That is actually the biggest reason why there is always an ADC botlane. You simply can't run anything else. ADC and Support are the only classes that can, atleast consistently, operate on a level deficit. Mages/Assassins need levels for the base damage, Tanks/Bruisers need it for the base stats/damage. 1. I've always hated that explanation that "mages need levels / ADC are the only class that needs items". ADC's like Ezreal/Corki/Lucian/Kindred most certainly benefit from levels and _all_ mages benefit from items, some much more than others. > If it was just the need for consistens physical damage we would see some variety now that ADCs can be played in Mid/Top/Jungle. But we don't. > If you've ever tried a "non-meta" botlane like double bruiser/mage bot you know it can work. But it also just feels....much weaker than running it in a solo lane. You are lacking that extra bit of burst/tankiness that the champion needs to reliably perform. The lack of variety in bot lane is player enforced. I actually had a LOT of success taking high damage bruisers bot lane. At the end of the day, the amount of flak I got from my team-mates was not worth it. I carried myself from silver 5 to silver 2 and I finally quit after a bad loss because my team-mates were telling me to kill myself. I wasn't having fun. I even shared my findings with friends, who basically shrugged and said "hey this is actually working really well, but I'm not going to do this." I've shared my experiences on these boards and got a "thats interesting, but it would never work" response, coupled with massive amounts of downvoting from random angry people. Players do not want change. It's why we cried until Mordekaiser was no longer a thing, instead of being happy for the end of the "mandatory ADC meta." Again, not mandatory. I insist that this is player enforced.
: How would a fight between your two highest mastery champions go?
2nd Highest : {{champion:254}} "Ooooh Baby, with those devastating Hextech Gauntlets this co--" Highest : {{champion:203}} So yeah Vi probably slips on the wet tile coming out of the shower, and Kindred kill-steals the faucet.
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