: Simpler explanation? A Nunu support that stays bot & assists the ADC at all times? Non-punishable. A Nunu Support who's doing the Jungler's job whilst ignoring his team's dissatisfaction? Punishable. Also works with any champions aside Nunu or Singed.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-03-22T06:16:27.967+0000) > > Simpler explanation? > > A Nunu support that stays bot & assists the ADC at all times? Non-punishable. > > A Nunu Support who's doing the Jungler's job whilst ignoring his team's dissatisfaction? Punishable. > > Also works with any champions aside Nunu or Singed. So as long as you're following the meta, playing off meta is okay. _This makes perfect sense now._
: I've said this once, I'll say it again. He was never reported for playing Off-meta. He was reported for being an inconsiderate asshole, who thinks everyone should just conform to his "Vision" of the game, and deal with it. He only cares about what's fun for him, and ignores every single one of his teammates for his own god damn pleasure. Sure, he's playing to win, but he ignores the fact that this is a **Team** game, and as a Team, you cooperate with your team, not shove your own god damn rules, and expect them to be happy and abide by them.
> [{quoted}](name=BioticBrony,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-03-22T05:10:46.304+0000) > > I've said this once, I'll say it again. He was never reported for playing Off-meta. He was reported for being an inconsiderate asshole, who thinks everyone should just conform to his "Vision" of the game, and deal with it. He only cares about what's fun for him, and ignores every single one of his teammates for his own god damn pleasure. Sure, he's playing to win, but he ignores the fact that this is a **Team** game, and as a Team, you cooperate with your team, not shove your own god damn rules, and expect them to be happy and abide by them. Someone needs to explain to me the difference between being reported for playing off meta, and being reported because your teammates didn't agree to "let you" play off meta. They're the same exact thing.
Ulanopo (NA)
: >I don't really care what it adds to the community. I play the game for fun and to win. Not all of us live in your little flowery world where you act condescending under the guise of promoting reformation. Some of us actually play the game. You misunderstand me. I'm not trying to reform you. I try to help people who are looking to reform, but you're not in that group. Personally, I think your version comes at the very high cost of many other peoples' fun and I think you should be banned. Also, I don't know where you get the idea I don't play the game just because I don't play ranked. I had an ARAM earlier this evening where I was thanked by all four of my teammates because I _supported_ the ADC. :)
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000500000000000100000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-22T01:12:05.628+0000) > > You misunderstand me. I'm not trying to reform you. I try to help people who are looking to reform, but you're not in that group. > > Personally, I think your version comes at the very high cost of many other peoples' fun and I think you should be banned. > > Also, I don't know where you get the idea I don't play the game just because I don't play ranked. I had an ARAM earlier this evening where I was thanked by all four of my teammates because I _supported_ the ADC. :) Oh really? You don't wander out of your lane in your ARAM?
elduris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00000000000200000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T23:36:59.340+0000) > > No, because people had their mind made up before I even showed up. Then why even bother showing up to begin with? Why continue to sit here and try to defend yourself if you think you can't change people's minds? Seems like a waste of time to me. Unless you only show up to every single place your name is mentioned to feed your ego. Which honestly, given how selfish you are in champion select, wouldn't surprise me much. >People like that OtterlyLost person deserve to be called stupid because they are. He's extremely insulting... You seem like the insulting one here, calling people names and dismissing them based on their rank. Why don't you have a good hard look in the mirror next time you want to call someone stupid?
> [{quoted}](name=elduris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000002000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-22T00:34:14.344+0000) > > Then why even bother showing up to begin with? Why continue to sit here and try to defend yourself if you think you can't change people's minds? Seems like a waste of time to me. Unless you only show up to every single place your name is mentioned to feed your ego. Which honestly, given how selfish you are in champion select, wouldn't surprise me much. > > You seem like the insulting one here, calling people names and dismissing them based on their rank. Why don't you have a good hard look in the mirror next time you want to call someone stupid? No, I dismiss their arguments because I think they're stupid, and I use their rank to confirm that, in fact, they've never even come close to playing games at this level which would therefore invalidate their ability to provide any meaningful insight in the same way that I couldn't provide any meaningful insight on underwater basketweaving because I've never done it. Judging by your Youtube video, I would guess that you're over the age of 10. So did you really unironically use a "look in the mirror" zinger?
Ulanopo (NA)
: >This is a fairly awful argument because it ignores the fact that climbing in solo queue is a largely random process, and the long term dominates over any short term luck. You have been making the argument that one of the main benefits of your "strategy" is that people play poorly in response, which is just as much a luck thing as anything else. The more I look at the numbers, the more I stand by my original thesis: in the games since your ban, you either get carried or you lose. There's one game where a Master tier Caitlyn went ham, but mostly it's the mid, the jungler or both who substantially outperform their counterpart. You can't say that this is because the enemy is distracted by you, though, as there doesn't seem to be any correlation between their success and the number of people chasing you, at least as evidenced by the number of people who get assists off your deaths. Also, you should stop strawmanning my arguments. I'm not arguing that any individual game invalidates the "strategy". I'm arguing that the long term data calls its validity into question. Moreover, I'm not arguing that the validity of your strategy should have any bearing on whether or not your behavior should be tolerated. I have made it perfectly clear I think your ban was absolutely justified and the only reason it was reduced was because the mob was screaming for blood and Riot needed time to craft guidelines that didn't suck quite so hard. It isn't your strategy that is toxic, though it certainly doesn't help. It's the utter contempt you have for your teammates that's the problem. The only excuse you have ever been able to offer is "I can do whatever I want every time, no exceptions." You're so set in this pattern that you won't even consider finding a duo partner because you don't think it provides a benefit to you. I think it's pretty telling that you're unwilling to make any compromises on behalf of your teammates, no matter how trivial that effort might be. In fact, I note that you have had excellent success with traditional junglers following the meta, so the argument that you have to ride this pony as hard as possible because it's the only way to advance is pretty garbage. You _could_ do other things. You _choose_ not to. "But... mah rights!" you insist. Hogwash. At some point, the rights of four _have_ to outweigh the selfishness of one. Because of the way the system works, the only way they can exercise those rights is by telling Riot they don't want to play with you any more and, at greater than 50% report rate, they _really_ don't want to play with you. So, please, continue to make the argument that your "strategy" adds value to the community.
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0005000000000001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-22T00:10:43.456+0000) > > You have been making the argument that one of the main benefits of your "strategy" is that people play poorly in response, which is just as much a luck thing as anything else. > Funny, because I win games with Master and Challenger tier opponents. Perhaps you've failed to recognize that I can anticipate what I expect people to do, and adjust accordingly? > The more I look at the numbers, the more I stand by my original thesis: in the games since your ban, you either get carried or you lose. There's one game where a Master tier Caitlyn went ham, but mostly it's the mid, the jungler or both who substantially outperform their counterpart. Why, then, have I gained a fairly substantial amount of rating (a division and a half) since then? I don't really care to figure out how many games I've played since being unbanned, but it's probably around 100, seeing as how there's at least 80 ranked games in the last 20 days on na.op.gg. And you can't claim it's from the games I played meta, because my Ivern winrate since the unban is 46%. I've gained rating _despite_ the games I was forced to play meta. It's unreal how much hubris you would have to have to actually believe that I, yet again, got lucky over a fairly substantial sample of games, rather than the unthinkable possibility that maybe you just don't understand how and why the strategy works. > > You can't say that this is because the enemy is distracted by you, though, as there doesn't seem to be any correlation between their success and the number of people chasing you, at least as evidenced by the number of people who get assists off your deaths. Hint: I don't always die or execute when they waste time defending, such as the Tahm Kench in the video in the OP. I thought that's a good thing? > > Also, you should stop strawmanning my arguments. I'm not arguing that any individual game invalidates the "strategy". I'm arguing that the long term data calls its validity into question. > The long term data doesn't call anything into question. I've played 450 games and have a very winning record to show for it. I would explain to you how unfathomably unlikely that is to be due to luck, but unfortunately that would either require me to: a) point out the binomial probability that you correctly pointed out is inappropriate because the trials lack independence or b) point out that the lack of independence between trials actually makes it LESS likely to be due to chance, because my probability of winning would go down, given that I won games earlier. That's what matchmaking does. At that point you can either accept that the true probability is actually LOWER than what the binomial distribution would suggest, or you expect me to cough up some kind of mean-reverting stochastic model that can properly account for the effects of matchmaking. > Moreover, I'm not arguing that the validity of your strategy should have any bearing on whether or not your behavior should be tolerated. I have made it perfectly clear I think your ban was absolutely justified and the only reason it was reduced was because the mob was screaming for blood and Riot needed time to craft guidelines that didn't suck quite so hard. > And what guidelines are those? You need your teammates' blessing to play what you want in solo queue? Let's take Pink Ward as an example, he mains Teleport/Ignite Shaco in the top lane. Well shit, he didn't ask me if I was okay with it. I guess we'll ban him too. Riot's position is actually quite unambiguous. They support innovation as long as there is an intent to win. If you actually played the game instead of volun-trolling in the PB&M boards I think you would realize that there are a lot of very irritable people in this community who get pissed off if you do anything unconventional. The problem lies in the fact that it only takes one out of the 4 other people in the game to get triggered to ruin it for everyone, not the 1v4 scenario people seem to construe this as. > It isn't your strategy that is toxic, though it certainly doesn't help. It's the utter contempt you have for your teammates that's the problem. The only excuse you have ever been able to offer is "I can do whatever I want every time, no exceptions." You're so set in this pattern that you won't even consider finding a duo partner because you don't think it provides a benefit to you. I think it's pretty telling that you're unwilling to make any compromises on behalf of your teammates, no matter how trivial that effort might be. > I don't want to duo. So what? I want to play when I want, and I have the right to do that. There's also a matchmaking adjustment in duo queueing to compensate for the added communication advantage so the only person I would want to duo queue with is the jungler because it's the only role where I think the communication advantage would be worthwhile. > In fact, I note that you have had excellent success with traditional junglers following the meta, so the argument that you have to ride this pony as hard as possible because it's the only way to advance is pretty garbage. You _could_ do other things. You _choose_ not to. > No? I'm 46% winrate with Ivern, I won 1 game with Caitlyn where I was somehow slotted Bot and my team just ran over the map for me, and I'm 2-0 on jungle Nunu when I was forced to jungle with Ivern banned. I have no idea where you think I've had "excellent success" unless you're referring to normal games or something ridiculous (which I suspect you are, given your "3 man premade" in solo queue comment in the other thread). > "But... mah rights!" you insist. Hogwash. At some point, the rights of four _have_ to outweigh the selfishness of one. Because of the way the system works, the only way they can exercise those rights is by telling Riot they don't want to play with you any more and, at greater than 50% report rate, they _really_ don't want to play with you. > Oh yea? It's not a "1v4" situation, it's typically one- perhaps two- people who get pissed off, and it's not my responsibility to appease everyone. By Riot's own math, they said I get reported in 50% of games. Let's work backwards. Let's say my teammates have an independent chance of reporting me, so if the probability that I am reported is 50%, that means the probability that I'm NOT reported is also 50%. So what we need to solve for is .5 = x^4, where x is the probability that any randomly selected teammate does not report me. Solving for x, we see there's an 84% chance that a randomly selected teammate doesn't report me, which imputes a 16% chance that they do. The probability that the "1v4" situation you claim happens to actually come to fruition would be .16^4, or 0.000655. Yeah, no. > So, please, continue to make the argument that your "strategy" adds value to the community. I don't really care what it adds to the community. I play the game for fun and to win. Not all of us live in your little flowery world where you act condescending under the guise of promoting reformation. Some of us actually play the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000001000000000001000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T21:54:42.665+0000) > That's really all there is to discuss. The strategy is within the Summoner's Code, and it wins a hell of a lot more often than whatever you do that keeps you Silver 1. Ah, yes. The classic cop-out when you don't actually have a meaningful argument: "Look at your low rank, your opinion is invalid." Love it. (And by the way, "whatever I'm doing that keeps me in Silver 1" is only having played 10 ranked games since my placements (which landed me in Silver 3)). As I said before, you justify everything you're doing with your rank and winrate. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to your ban. You weren't banned for your strategy, you were banned because of the negative experiences you created while forcing it on your team. _How_ you did it is the issue, not the fact that you did it at all. The reason the ban got lifted is because it was not sufficiently clear in the Summoner's Code that you can get banned for garnering enough reports in your games. The problem here is you took that as a sign of victory and permission to keep trampling on your teammates. Look at the Singed player. A very similar case, but he actually fixed his behavior after Riot lifted his ban - he plays a bit more duo, he communicates with his team, and he is willing to compromise and adjust his strategy when his team has major issues with it. That's what you need to do, too.
> [{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000010000000000010002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T23:31:10.438+0000) > > Ah, yes. The classic cop-out when you don't actually have a meaningful argument: "Look at your low rank, your opinion is invalid." Love it. > > (And by the way, "whatever I'm doing that keeps me in Silver 1" is only having played 10 ranked games since my placements (which landed me in Silver 3)). > > As I said before, you justify everything you're doing with your rank and winrate. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to your ban. You weren't banned for your strategy, you were banned because of the negative experiences you created while forcing it on your team. _How_ you did it is the issue, not the fact that you did it at all. > > The reason the ban got lifted is because it was not sufficiently clear in the Summoner's Code that you can get banned for garnering enough reports in your games. The problem here is you took that as a sign of victory and permission to keep trampling on your teammates. Look at the Singed player. A very similar case, but he actually fixed his behavior after Riot lifted his ban - he plays a bit more duo, he communicates with his team, and he is willing to compromise and adjust his strategy when his team has major issues with it. That's what you need to do, too. Here I'm gonna post this three times because apparently the other two times I posted it, you missed it so here it is: > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers. Once more: > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers. Wait wait wait... > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers.
elduris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000002000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-21T21:08:26.623+0000) > > In a cesspool of dumb comments, this might be the dumbest yet. What does that even mean? I max Consume, I build Redemption/Locket. How would I "carry"? I'm a Support- or do you not even know what the discussion is about? I remember you getting pretty upset at the assertion that you get carried every game you win. Yet here you are claiming that it's impossible to carry the game yourself as Nunu. So if you can't carry with Nunu, then you admit you rely on your teammates to carry the game for you. Meaning you _do_ get carried. Perhaps people would be more willing to see your side of the argument if you were to call them "stupid" or "idiots" less. I've found that, when making an argument, name-calling doesn't work out too well.
> [{quoted}](name=elduris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000020000000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T23:18:28.693+0000) > > I remember you getting pretty upset at the assertion that you get carried every game you win. Yet here you are claiming that it's impossible to carry the game yourself as Nunu. So if you can't carry with Nunu, then you admit you rely on your teammates to carry the game for you. Meaning you _do_ get carried. This is just semantics. The only benchmark that matters is - if we swapped you with your respective lane opponent, would the outcome of the game have been different? In most cases the answer is 'No', but often times it's 'Yes', and the times that it's 'Yes' are what determines where you end up on the ladder. If this guy's definition of "carry" is 'Nunu went 15/0/9 bathing in the blood of his enemies with his unstoppable snowball DPS' then no, I have not "carried" a game, but if "carrying" a game is getting 2 Barons and 3 Dragons that my team otherwise would not have gotten, which allowed us to win a game that a conventional support would have lost, then I've carried games a lot. > > Perhaps people would be more willing to see your side of the argument if you were to call them "stupid" or "idiots" less. I've found that, when making an argument, name-calling doesn't work out too well. No, because people had their mind made up before I even showed up. People like that OtterlyLost person deserve to be called stupid because they are. He's extremely insulting, which I actually don't care about, except for the fact that he's also consistently wrong, which makes it annoying. You have to be stupid to be hard stuck Silver 5 (literally, hundreds of games played) but still think you can berate strategies that are successful in some of the highest rated games in NA solo queue.
Ulanopo (NA)
: >It's like you're so transfixed on the negative tradeoffs of the strategy that you completely throw the blinders up to the positive attributes of it. Mostly because you have never been able to provide any useful number on what those "positive attributes" might be. I have been looking over your match history and I notice several things (I'm doing an extensive review on your last 50 matches, so I don't have numbers yet): * There isn't much correlation between wins and number of rift heralds, dragons, etc. The rift heralds seem especially valueless. * Figuring the value of towers is going to be difficult because dropping them is a requirement for victory, barring a surrender. I do note that your losses tend to be much larger tower blowouts than your wins. You are currently worth -0.7 towers per game. You are also worth about -6000 gold per game. * There seems to be a much larger correlation between wins and the rank of your ADC or mid. * There also seems to be a large correlation between wins and whether or not your mid or jungle decisively outplays their counterpart (>150% damage to champions).
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00050000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-21T22:48:22.412+0000) > > Mostly because you have never been able to provide any useful number on what those "positive attributes" might be. > > I have been looking over your match history and I notice several things (I'm doing an extensive review on your last 50 matches, so I don't have numbers yet): > > * There isn't much correlation between wins and number of rift heralds, dragons, etc. The rift heralds seem especially valueless. > * Figuring the value of towers is going to be difficult because dropping them is a requirement for victory, barring a surrender. I do note that your losses tend to be much larger tower blowouts than your wins. You are currently worth -0.7 towers per game. You are also worth about -6000 gold per game. > * There seems to be a much larger correlation between wins and the rank of your ADC or mid. > * There also seems to be a large correlation between wins and whether or not your mid or jungle decisively outplays their counterpart (>150% damage to champions). A lot of the advantage is invisible. A perfect example of that was included in the video of the OP in the level 1 against the Tahm Kench, Cass and Kha'zix where I wasted a lot of time on 3 players in exchange for mine, when my time matters the least. The jungle advantage is primarily why I win, because the enemy jungler typically can't exert objective control or lane pressure that makes the game much easier to play for my team and very difficult for the enemy team, who still has to play around our jungler (who also benefits from improved clears because I often help them clear camps). "But Nunu! I found a game where the enemy jungler went 7-0! Your strategy doesn't work!" This is a fairly awful argument because it ignores the fact that climbing in solo queue is a largely random process, and the long term dominates over any short term luck. This is the kind of results-oriented stupidity that people use to justify buying lottery tickets because one time this guy spent $1 and won $50 million.
: It's so interesting how the only argument you give to justify your behavior is that your strategy works. As though it doesn't matter that your teammates are miserable in your games and have such a terrible experience that you get reported in nearly half of your games. No, no - that little victory banner makes up for all that. Let me tell you a little story. When Ivern was first released, I wanted to try the same strat you use - Smite Support Ivern, focusing on counterjungling. So, I got 2 of my friends - an ADC and a jungler - and we hopped into some normal games to try it out. It didn't take many games to realize that it was an absolutely miserable experience for the adc, no matter how well I was doing. No matter how hard they tried to play safe, laning phase was always a nightmare for them, which ruined the rest of the game for them, no matter how well we did later on. We won a few games and lost a few games, but it didn't matter either way. It was pretty obvious that it just was not a good idea - not because it didn't have potential, but because of how awful it was for the other player. Based on the number of reports you received and the videos of your games, it's pretty clear that it's the same deal in your games. The fact that you either haven't realized that or are purposefully ignoring it suggests that you lack basic human empathy. You don't care about your teammates, you don't care about their experience with you, all you care about is the victory and your rank. And somehow your statistics and winrate wash away all the complaints and negativity you leave in your wake. Well, it's about time you wake up and realize that normal humans don't look at life that way.
> [{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00000000000100000000000100020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T21:20:09.410+0000) > > It's so interesting how the only argument you give to justify your behavior is that your strategy works. As though it doesn't matter that your teammates are miserable in your games and have such a terrible experience that you get reported in nearly half of your games. No, no - that little victory banner makes up for all that. No, the argument to justify my "behavior" is that innovation in solo queue is not only allowed, it's encouraged. Riot's position here is quite clear: > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers. That's really all there is to discuss. The strategy is within the Summoner's Code, and it wins a hell of a lot more often than whatever you do that keeps you Silver 1.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:21:07.032+0000) > > The enemy team used abilities that killed me. Walking into a lvl 6 cassio as a lvl 2 nunu is not "dying due to fighting" It's suicide by walking naked into a hailstorm of bullets, flamethrowers and daggers. Or a snake with poison in that case There are already several people making vids of what it´s like playing with you, not a single one has said anything positive. And i have watched your streams, i was not impressed. rather i got to see a show of you feeding like hell and even running into the enemy base to die. Several times. Oh wait, that wasn't on stream, that was from a video when someone described what playing with you is like. And while that happened the guy in question died to a 3 man gank, for the 4th time. And so i wish to ask... have you ever carried? I actually watched your streams and more often than not it was someone else going crazy like the victor main 2 days ago who went 21,2,4 or the malzahar&talon combo who went 17,6,5 and 12,9,7. Or 3 days ago with the 11,2,3 Yasuo and 11,1,5 ahri. I can't remember ever seeing you carry with nunu, you seem more like a leech riding of others success when you are not feeding your ass off with 7+ deaths and nothing to show for it. And watching the people who get to play with you? Even QtPie, a huge streamer and well know ADC player has firmly stated that he finds your....""genius strategy" utterly ridiculous and no one seems willing to speak up for you. You might wana ...TakeAlook at your style and how it affects others,because evidently 45-50% of the people you play with find it to be pure misery. And even a number of the people who used to support you are now naming you as...a less than pleasant person.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00000000000200000002,timestamp=2017-03-21T20:40:38.055+0000) > > > And so i wish to ask... have you ever carried? I actually watched your streams and more often than not it was someone else going crazy like the victor main 2 days ago who went 21,2,4 or the malzahar&talon combo who went 17,6,5 and 12,9,7. > > Or 3 days ago with the 11,2,3 Yasuo and 11,1,5 ahri. > > I can't remember ever seeing you carry with nunu, you seem more like a leech riding of others success when you are not feeding your ass off with 7+ deaths and nothing to show for it. "I can't remember ever seeing you carry with Nunu" ... In a cesspool of dumb comments, this might be the dumbest yet. What does that even mean? I max Consume, I build Redemption/Locket. How would I "carry"? I'm a Support- or do you not even know what the discussion is about?
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0005000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T18:35:50.735+0000) > > The Caitlyn game is just ridiculous to bring up. We had a mid laner and a jungle Rengar who did less combined damage than the enemy Nami. Better blame the Nunu though. > > I don't know what to tell you. You don't read what I'm saying, and if you do, you assume I'm lying anyway, or you know my own strategy better than I do. You realize the farm of the ADC has very little do with how diveable they are, right? Having a Runaan's Hurricane does not suddenly make someone undiveable. You know what actually does make someone difficult to dive? Levels. You know who gets solo exp when they usually don't? Bot laners who play with me. > > It's like you're so transfixed on the negative tradeoffs of the strategy that you completely throw the blinders up to the positive attributes of it. Junglers who play against me struggle to gank ANYONE because they're on deep wards, or near me, pretty much nonstop. ** It's a tradeoff. ** > > Some of the stuff you say is just straight stupid, like you said this strategy doesn't work against a Maokai jungle, like I've played against one in years, or that anyone jungles Maokai in 2017. Even in this post you're trying to claim that the person _who gets solo experience is going to be underleveled_ . The thing is, you act like it's an appeal to authority argument for me to point out that you're (barely) silver 5 and I'm diamond 2, but it's not. You say dumb things that make it apparent that you don't know how competently played ranked games go. The thing that separates me from you is game knowledge, it's not mechanics like you tried to imply in the other post because Nunu is certainly not a mechanically intensive champion. It's literally just game knowledge and decisionmaking that separates almost the entirety of the NA ladder from me to you. You probably think I'm being arrogant now, but you're the worst kind of arrogant. You're that mix of obstinate/arrogant/stupid that makes it so hard for people to innovate in solo queue. Levels on an ADC are irrelevant; ADCs need items and items need *gold* which they aren't getting a lot of if they're shoved under turret and harrassed out. As for how they would be under leveled, huh, could it be that the enemy bot lane hard freeze and or zone and poke them out of lane so that they're never there? That's definitely a thing. And sure, bring up the idea *I'm* the one not reading when literally everyone else and their mother has probably asked you, specifically,"Can you not do this strat in this game?" and you *still* did. Which is the *real* reason you got banned, not the bullshit that you spun to make it sound like Riot just hate the "starving artist type" who are trying to "innovate soloqueue." How pretentious are you to think that they even remotely care about you breaking the mold and doing something different? No, what they care about is the over 50% of players who flatly say,"You are an asshole to play with and I hated playing this game with you, holy shit." Do you care that you are ruining the gaming experience for people on your team though? Not one fucking bit. And feel free to call me arrogant; I'm not the one who is forcing and demanding that my strategy is the only strategy that can be played this game regardless of how comfortable or fun someone else on my team is going to get to have. Holy shit, you don't even compromise half the time with people. You just expect that the entirety of your team should bend to your will and do this strategy. I don't care if you're D1 or B5, dude, you are a monster to play with and ruin the game for at least one person on your team and ergo deserved the ban and the punishment that they gave you. You lucked out ridiculously hard and had a bunch of white knight bastards with no grasp of why you were banned and Riot themselves not clearly starting earlier the reason save you from punishment. I don't feel like they should have caved in the least because you *deserved* it. They are a business and if a customer with in the business is making issues for other customers, they have the right to not serve you and tell you to get out and the fact that you think your "innovation" makes you special or exempt from this is the epitome of arrogance. As I've stated in previous threads, specifically when this trash came up when you posted it, I enjoy doing meta breaking stuff so saying I'm "stifling innovation" is ridiculous when I enjoy playing Nami in lanes other than support(specifically top and mid) and I personally only ever play Varus AP, even when I take him bot lane. You know next to nothing about me outside of my rank and you automatically decide I'm a "creativity stifler" who only ever "follows the meta." How is that any different from what everyone has been saying to you about what you do? But please, *I'm* the arrogant one in this conversation. I'm the one flaunting how much higher a rank I am than everyone else and I'm the one who is saying my strategy is "innovative" and the best thing since sliced bread. Yes, please tell me how *I'm* the arrogant one.
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00050000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T19:42:42.993+0000) > And sure, bring up the idea *I'm* the one not reading when literally everyone else and their mother has probably asked you, specifically,"Can you not do this strat in this game?" and you *still* did. Which is the *real* reason you got banned, not the bullshit that you spun to make it sound like Riot just hate the "starving artist type" who are trying to "innovate soloqueue." How pretentious are you to think that they even remotely care about you breaking the mold and doing something different? No, what they care about is the over 50% of players who flatly say,"You are an asshole to play with and I hated playing this game with you, holy shit." Do you care that you are ruining the gaming experience for people on your team though? Not one fucking bit. > I don't care if you're D1 or B5, dude, you are a monster to play with and ruin the game for at least one person on your team and ergo deserved the ban and the punishment that they gave you. You lucked out ridiculously hard and had a bunch of white knight bastards with no grasp of why you were banned and Riot themselves not clearly starting earlier the reason save you from punishment. I don't feel like they should have caved in the least because you *deserved* it. Actually Riot has made it very clear that they do not enforce the meta. There's nothing uncertain here. Riot: > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers. Not sure how you can interpret this any other way. My account gets audited a lot because I get reported a lot. Eventually I got an auditor who thought I was trolling or "stealing roles", they banned me, I pointed out that I wasn't , and Riot corrected their mistake. It's only in your head that the "white knights" liberated my account. As we've seen for years, Riot loves nothing more than to "smite" people who claim they've been falsely banned when they haven't. "But your ADC didn't sign up for this!" Yeah, so what? That's why there's rule enforcement. Anything is allowed as long as your team agrees to it- if you're in a 5 man premade, you can type all the racial and homophobic slurs in team chat that you want. The point of enforcement is that _in situations where a conflict occurs, which side is correct_. Riot has made it very clear that they will err on the side of innovation. You just don't like that answer for some reason. I'm not responding to the rest of the ad hominem vomit you typed. You have that Dunning Kruger thing going on, of that I am certain.
: The reason people originally supported you is because of the slanted view you presented in your original post. It was well laid out, gave some numbers and statistics, and wasn't a typical whining post. _That's_ why there was so much support for the first 2 or 3 days. Then, people went to watch the videos of your actual games - no biased or cherry-picked montages - and realized: "Yeah, this guy is a troll and kind of a douche to his team." The only people who are still defending you are the hardcore "anti-meta sheep" who will blindly worship anyone who tries something different. And yes, it will work less often now. It is a cheese tactic that relies on your enemies' ignorance of the strategy and lack of communication. Just like any cheese strat, it becomes ineffective in most situations once people are familiar with it. Can it still work? Yes, with or against certain comps and with decent communication it can work really well. But most of the time it will be below average effectiveness, if not complete crap.
> [{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000001000000000001000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T19:26:12.652+0000) > > The reason people originally supported you is because of the slanted view you presented in your original post. It was well laid out, gave some numbers and statistics, and wasn't a typical whining post. _That's_ why there was so much support for the first 2 or 3 days. > > Then, people went to watch the videos of your actual games - no biased or cherry-picked montages - and realized: "Yeah, this guy is a troll and kind of a douche to his team." > > The only people who are still defending you are the hardcore "anti-meta sheep" who will blindly worship anyone who tries something different. > > And yes, it will work less often now. It is a cheese tactic that relies on your enemies' ignorance of the strategy and lack of communication. Just like any cheese strat, it becomes ineffective in most situations once people are familiar with it. Can it still work? Yes, with or against certain comps and with decent communication it can work really well. But most of the time it will be below average effectiveness, if not complete crap. No biased or cherry-picked montages in this thread, no sir. It will work less often? I went on a 7 game winning streak _two days ago_. This must have been what it was like trying to convince people the world isn't flat.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-21T13:22:49.989+0000) > > Again, this would be the kind of thing you could easily confirm for yourself if you actually watched games instead of trying to randomly conjecture things that aren't actually true Doesn't it strike you as odd, then, that the majority of people from the Boards and Reddit who originally supported you.... switched sides after watching your streams? Does it not tell you something seeing all the people who defended you in the posts here come back and say "Yeah, I just watched his streams - he deserved that ban."? And how _nobody_ has flipped the other way? Nobody cares if the strategy can sometimes work (and you'll find it works less and less often now that it's been broadcast out and people aren't caught off guard anymore) if it's a terrible experience for them.
> [{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000010000000000010002,timestamp=2017-03-21T18:45:22.963+0000) > > Doesn't it strike you as odd, then, that the majority of people from the Boards and Reddit who originally supported you.... switched sides after watching your streams? > > Does it not tell you something seeing all the people who defended you in the posts here come back and say "Yeah, I just watched his streams - he deserved that ban."? > > And how _nobody_ has flipped the other way? > > Nobody cares if the strategy can sometimes work (and you'll find it works less and less often now that it's been broadcast out and people aren't caught off guard anymore) if it's a terrible experience for them. The only thing that changed is the framing device (the OP). I don't know what "new" information you think anyone gained since my posts and now. My VODs were available then, and still are (at least I think, I don't know how long Twitch stores them). The fact that I don't lane bot is absolutely nothing new to anyone. I'll find it works less often now that it's been broadcast? I've gained a division and a half since I was unbanned. My rating gets taxed by teammates who basically give up. Now that more people know that I'm genuine and not trolling, people give up less.
: > [{quoted}](name=SociopathFriend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:52:36.462+0000) > > Dunno why you were downvoted, Sivir in particular is especially true in that she can't waveclear extremely well in successive waves until she gets items. Waveclear is a traditional ADC weakness. IDK compadre, I really do. :/ I've played all three of those ADCs and all three of them, traditionally and often as a form of counter play, have extreme mana problems to keep them from being wildly too good too soon. If they could wave clear the minion waves that well early game then they literally wouldn't need a support; they'd be like a midlaner instead. > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000001000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-21T13:22:49.989+0000) > > Except the person bot lane hasn't been any more or less likely to be pissed off than anyone else I play with. In fact, several people have expressed that they prefer it. Again, this would be the kind of thing you could easily confirm for yourself if you actually watched games instead of trying to randomly conjecture things that aren't actually true, like how often my poor defenseless bot laner gets tower dived (which almost never actually happens, and the last time I can remember that it did, our Caitlyn got a triple kill in a Master/Challenger tier game). What about that Caitlyn just a few days ago that was 0/4? :/ You cannot honestly tell me that at Diamond level, the enemy team doesn't look bot lane and see a starved, under farmed and possibly underleveled AD and go,"Yeah, we totally can't dive that." That's just a boldface lie, sir. If I was jungler, and I saw a lone ADC, I would dive in a heartbeat. And after diving, I would take tower. And then dragon, for that matter. Its a mystery to me how you have dragon control in your games with there being *no* bot lane to help contest and have control of that area.
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000500000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T16:16:22.242+0000) > What about that Caitlyn just a few days ago that was 0/4? :/ You cannot honestly tell me that at Diamond level, the enemy team doesn't look bot lane and see a starved, under farmed and possibly underleveled AD and go,"Yeah, we totally can't dive that." That's just a boldface lie, sir. If I was jungler, and I saw a lone ADC, I would dive in a heartbeat. And after diving, I would take tower. And then dragon, for that matter. Its a mystery to me how you have dragon control in your games with there being *no* bot lane to help contest and have control of that area. The Caitlyn game is just ridiculous to bring up. We had a mid laner and a jungle Rengar who did less combined damage than the enemy Nami. Better blame the Nunu though. I don't know what to tell you. You don't read what I'm saying, and if you do, you assume I'm lying anyway, or you know my own strategy better than I do. You realize the farm of the ADC has very little do with how diveable they are, right? Having a Runaan's Hurricane does not suddenly make someone undiveable. You know what actually does make someone difficult to dive? Levels. You know who gets solo exp when they usually don't? Bot laners who play with me. It's like you're so transfixed on the negative tradeoffs of the strategy that you completely throw the blinders up to the positive attributes of it. Junglers who play against me struggle to gank ANYONE because they're on deep wards, or near me, pretty much nonstop. ** It's a tradeoff. ** Some of the stuff you say is just straight stupid, like you said this strategy doesn't work against a Maokai jungle, like I've played against one in years, or that anyone jungles Maokai in 2017. Even in this post you're trying to claim that the person _who gets solo experience is going to be underleveled_ . The thing is, you act like it's an appeal to authority argument for me to point out that you're (barely) silver 5 and I'm diamond 2, but it's not. You say dumb things that make it apparent that you don't know how competently played ranked games go. The thing that separates me from you is game knowledge, it's not mechanics like you tried to imply in the other post because Nunu is certainly not a mechanically intensive champion. It's literally just game knowledge and decisionmaking that separates almost the entirety of the NA ladder from me to you. You probably think I'm being arrogant now, but you're the worst kind of arrogant. You're that mix of obstinate/arrogant/stupid that makes it so hard for people to innovate in solo queue.
: Another really dumb thing about this smite Nunu thing is that one of Nunu's greatest weapons is his AS buff to ADCs. But if your ADC is so far behind what good is the buff?
> [{quoted}](name=jinxedchef,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=0048,timestamp=2017-03-21T15:35:03.388+0000) > > Another really dumb thing about this smite Nunu thing is that one of Nunu's greatest weapons is his AS buff to ADCs. But if your ADC is so far behind what good is the buff? Pretty simple answer - the ADC doesn't get far behind. The only person who's actually provided numbers is me, and the numbers show that the ADC is usually only 5% behind in gold on average, and in exchange they get solo experience. Everyone else is just making stuff up based off assumptions of how they think games play out, as if they know better than I do, when I've actually played it for hundreds of games and understand the theorycraft behind it. You might say: "But the Caitlyn in the OP said she was really far behind because of you!" Sample size: 1. And, as I pointed out (and how everyone else ignored), our jungle Rengar had 1.4k damage and our mid laner had 1.5k. A support Janna would not have carried the game. There's games you just lose because your team gets crushed.
: And it's sad to know your Diamond account won't be around for long if you keep up this strategy. I'd be expecting your "Why did I get permaban?" thread soon in the near future.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000002000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:44:00.446+0000) > > And it's sad to know your Diamond account won't be around for long if you keep up this strategy. I'd be expecting your "Why did I get permaban?" thread soon in the near future. Yeah, God forbid people would innovate in solo queue. Riot: > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers. Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/79aGu3wR-support-singed-isnt-banable-but-thats-not-the-point?show=rundown
: Cass was right there. Your teammate Lee Sin was even there as well, and you still stupidly walked directly into her face while ignoring the level gap between the two of you.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:37:38.722+0000) > > Cass was right there. Your teammate Lee Sin was even there as well, and you still stupidly walked directly into her face while ignoring the level gap between the two of you. Then just imagine how good this strategy must be if a stupid player like me can reach high Diamond with it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:28:33.592+0000) > > I walked to a turret that had CS no one was farming. At level 2. With Cass still there. The only worse path to take to get there would have been to walk through Cassiopeia's own turret first. That's pathing 101.
> [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:29:55.968+0000) > > At level 2. With Cass still there. The only worse path to take to get there would have been to walk through Cassiopeia's own turret first. That's pathing 101. A mistake happened in a game of League of Legends. Shocking, I know.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:21:07.032+0000) > > The enemy team used abilities that killed me. This reply confirmed to me that you're a troll. You walked into a level 6 Cass at level 2.
> [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:26:51.196+0000) > > This reply confirmed to me that you're a troll. You walked into a level 6 Cass at level 2. I walked to a turret that had CS no one was farming.
: Take the draw explain 7:19. It is basically inting
> [{quoted}](name=FrostyPacy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2017-03-21T14:10:23.916+0000) > > Take the draw explain 7:19. It is basically inting The enemy team used abilities that killed me.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-21T12:52:30.189+0000) > > Because there's no communication advantage to duo queueing with the bot laner? If anything I would duo queue with the jungler, and I just also don't want to duo queue. There's the advantage of not pissing off a random person by making them 2v1 and 3v1 against their will. There's the advantage of at least consent from the person that generally is *meant* to have a partner in their lane. There's the advantage of having preworked out what champion would be best for the situation that you're going to impose on your team. There are a shitton of advantages to duo queuing with your AD over your jungler, whom your strat affects likely the least as he's not being forced to 2v1 and get zoned out of farm and experience.
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-21T13:04:33.969+0000) > > There's the advantage of not pissing off a random person by making them 2v1 and 3v1 against their will. There's the advantage of at least consent from the person that generally is *meant* to have a partner in their lane. There's the advantage of having preworked out what champion would be best for the situation that you're going to impose on your team. There are a shitton of advantages to duo queuing with your AD over your jungler, whom your strat affects likely the least as he's not being forced to 2v1 and get zoned out of farm and experience. Except the person bot lane hasn't been any more or less likely to be pissed off than anyone else I play with. In fact, several people have expressed that they prefer it. Again, this would be the kind of thing you could easily confirm for yourself if you actually watched games instead of trying to randomly conjecture things that aren't actually true, like how often my poor defenseless bot laner gets tower dived (which almost never actually happens, and the last time I can remember that it did, our Caitlyn got a triple kill in a Master/Challenger tier game).
: Why don't you just duo with an adc? Then you won't have to worry about people flaming your strategy.
> [{quoted}](name=Wimbledofy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-21T12:02:14.180+0000) > > Why don't you just duo with an adc? Then you won't have to worry about people flaming your strategy. Because there's no communication advantage to duo queueing with the bot laner? If anything I would duo queue with the jungler, and I just also don't want to duo queue. It's also just not that disadvantageous to the bot lane. There's just a bunch of people who've never seen the strategy and never looked at the actual statistics aside from my KDA who think it is. I provided numbers in the original post I made about this, but here they are again: http://imgur.com/DrT7lFG Over a sample of 20 games- 10 wins, 10 losses- the bot lane was less than 600 gold behind, whereas our team's jungler is equally far ahead. In exchange, our team is 3 times more likely to get Baron and Dragon and pretty much infinitely more likely to get Rift Herald (I think I've lost one all season). It's very telling when you have people clip something like that level 1 at 5:20 and can't recognize how tremendously advantageous that was for our team. These are the same people who will insist that had we won that game that it was very lucky that I "got carried". These people, really uncoincidentally, are almost always very low on the ladder (OP is Silver 5, as is that OtterlyLost guy who trolls pretty much every thread about this). The thought never crosses their mind that they just don't understand how or why this works, nor did it ever cross their mind to ask. As usual, I maintain a very high level of transparency on my stream at twitch.tv/itslevi (although I had to delete the VOD from yesterday because I accidentally displayed my IP address on stream).
: Yeah, QTPie isn't really wrong there when he says "Someone has to change the Meta, but it isn't you" and changing the Meta is GREAT when you're not fucking over your team mate. Just because it works for someone alone, doesn't mean you're helping your team and so on. Granted, the clips shown might be slanted to show the bad moments of this guys escapades. Overall though, don't fuck another player over just to do your own thing and try and justify it. In this current state of the game, being stuck 1v2 would absolutely be awful.
> [{quoted}](name=MsBehave,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hyq4AA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-21T01:35:54.519+0000) > > Yeah, QTPie isn't really wrong there when he says "Someone has to change the Meta, but it isn't you" and changing the Meta is GREAT when you're not fucking over your team mate. Just because it works for someone alone, doesn't mean you're helping your team and so on. Granted, the clips shown might be slanted to show the bad moments of this guys escapades. > > Overall though, don't fuck another player over just to do your own thing and try and justify it. In this current state of the game, being stuck 1v2 would absolutely be awful. The funny thing is that even as far as bad montages go, this was stupid. Most notably the clip at 5:30, notice the enemy top lane didn't get to lane until almost the 3 minute mark, the enemy Cass left lane for over 30 seconds and the Kha'Zix's clear was impaired chasing me around for... what? Nothing. They didn't even kill me, and** it wouldn't have been worth it even if they had**. It actually set up a pretty sick invade for the Lee Sin too, which was conveniently omitted. The clip at 5:30 I think perfectly reflects how the strategy works, and why the bad KDA's don't tell a meaningful story. It's funny that instead of trying to understand it, people just flame it. Whatever.
Ulanopo (NA)
: >Ok, I'm just going to ignore the 8 paragraphs where the guy in silver 5 is trying to tell me that my strategy doesn't work, and focus on this part. http://i.imgur.com/UzqMgtA.jpg[/img] His rank does not make his argument invalid.
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=00370007000000000000000300000001,timestamp=2017-03-20T03:58:56.384+0000) > > http://i.imgur.com/UzqMgtA.jpg[/img] > > His rank does not make his argument invalid. No, the argument was invalid when he randomly cherrypicked losing games and started saying "this game the enemy team had more gold than you! That's your fault!"
Ulanopo (NA)
: >The "you only get carried!" arguments are just terrible, and deny a practical and statistical reality- that it's virtually impossible to get carried over the sample of games that I've played. Then you should have no difficulty showing us a match where you weren't carried. I'm still unable to find a double smite one on your op.gg from this season. >The years-old assumption that the support should duo lane with the ADC is the very assumption the strategy is meant to challenge. You don't challenge a tested strategy with a suboptimal variant. By the way, I would not bother with the binomial calculator. You fail on the third requirement: _The probability that a particular outcome will occur on any given trial is constant._ There are too many factors involved for a match to be reduced to a coin flip.
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=0037000700000000000000010000000200000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T03:45:19.741+0000) > > Then you should have no difficulty showing us a match where you weren't carried. I'm still unable to find a double smite one on your op.gg from this season. Sure. How about the 20 games I listed in my original post where I had objective counts of 53 Dragons to 15, 18 Barons to 5, 11 Rift Heralds to 0, and a bigger gold advantage in the jungle than the gold disadvantage in bot lane? http://imgur.com/DrT7lFG > > You don't challenge a tested strategy with a suboptimal variant. > > By the way, I would not bother with the binomial calculator. You fail on the third requirement: _The probability that a particular outcome will occur on any given trial is constant._ There are too many factors involved for a match to be reduced to a coin flip. This is ridiculous. Quite obviously the games are not purely binomially distributed. Distributions in the real world serve as approximations, and as an approximation for the claim that I could somehow get carried to- and stay at- a high Diamond rating, the binomial distribution is perfectly reasonable. More importantly, it's simple, and that seems pretty important given the circumstances. It should just be common sense that it's virtually impossible to get carried over any reasonable sample size. It's embarrassing trying to argue otherwise.
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=00370007000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T02:27:34.434+0000) > > This has nothing to do with "comfort zone". The problem with your bizarre analogy (3 person premade in solo queue...?) is that he was assigned 'Bottom', and so he would unambiguously be expected to go... bottom. 'Support' is not a lane, and the expectation that Support goes Bottom only exists because of the meta. Riot has stated, in no uncertain terms, that breaking the meta is not bannable. Support is a type of champion with an emphasis on team utility and low farm dependency. The client explicitly defines Nunu as a support. There's not some minimum time limit you need to be in a certain lane. I understand it would be _reasonable _for him to expect me to be bot with him, which is why I inform him that I won't be, so he can adjust accordingly. If he can't, or refuses to, then that's his decision. > > My teams prefer winning to losing. As a one trick pony, this is the only strategy I have that is viable at a high Elo level. If I do anything else, it would reduce our team's chances of winning drastically. So if the Caitlyn objects (which, by the way, he didn't), am I supposed to play first time champions in high Elo games and sabotage the other three players just so he can get a little more CS? How does this make sense to anyone? Honestly. How does it make sense for you to *not* have a back up strategy at *Diamond fucking 3* level? What? And yes, breaking the meta is not bannable. What is bannable, however, is not working as a team player and communicating with them. Yes, you *tell* them what you're going to do. Good job. You did the *first* half of communicating. Now did they teach you, in elementary school, what the *second* half was? If they didn't, I'll illuminate it for you. The second half of communicating with anyone in the whole wide world is *LISTENING.* So wait, how many times did you *listen* to your team when they said,"No, I don't want to 2v1 bot; could you please go someone else or figure out a different strategy?" Obviously not a whole helluva lot since you got reported enough times for a rightful suspension. Furthermore, if you *actually* want to be counter jungling and "supporting", why aren't you queuing up as flat Jungle and then something like midlane or top to help insure you get jungle? I've looked at your match history and I see games where you play Evelynn and Ivern and win just fine so this lie that you can't play another champion and do well is absolute BS used to justify the fact that you are, indeed, doing something wrong and toxic. In addition, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, your strategy flatly *does not work.* Examples of lost games: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2454736542/50722482?tab=overview Lost; why? Because counter jungling a Zac is pointless. He can easily tower dive a defenseless ADC to pick up assists and kills and since there's no one there to help peel, its probably what he did. A lot. I notice his score is insanely good(4/1/16) and the actual amount of gold he earned that game was actually *third* most on his team. And it was still 2k higher than the amount of the highest gold earning champion on *your* team. Comparatively, your ADC only earned a measly 6k gold. 6k to the enemy jungler's 10k is a massive difference. That's 4k gold different that was probably exacerbated by, yes, bot turret being yet again the first to fall. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2454494178/50722482?tab=overview Here's another one. Against an Ivern. Don't think I haven't noticed your long standing problem against Iverns. c: He's your *number one* counter because you can't counter jungle him half as easily. If his smite is up, that camp is just flat out *his.* And the fact that you continue to lose to Iverns with this strat never has any bearing on you or anything; you never change your strategy at all despite it being a historical *fact* that Ivern destroys your strategy. But again, let's look at his stats. 3/6/26. So he has 26 assists to your 11 and died a total of five less times. And yet again, first turret to fall is your bot lane. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2454353859/50722482?tab=overview How about this one? 12 deaths and only 2 assists to show for it? And *man* that's a fed Shaco. Its like Shaco is a champion that purposefully preys on weaker lanes in the early game to get snowballing. Oh wait, yeah, that describes him in a nut shell. See, he earned 10k gold to your ADC's 8k; that's a 2k difference. The enemy ADC, an Ashe, also earned 10k. So how many times *that* game was the Shaco bot lane? And how many times did he kill you while you were trying to counter jungle? http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2452016688/50722482?tab=overview Hey, remember I said Ivern countered your strat. Good example. The point stands, this "strategy" that's so "innovative" does not work. :/ Great, you're taking gold away from the enemy jungler. That's fantastic. You're taking gold off a champ that will not affect the game half as hard past the 30 minute mark. Kudos for shutting down an early game threat. Now what about the late game threat that's getting to free farm in your bot lane that's probably at least gotten one or two kills at this point?
> [{quoted}](name=OtterlyLost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=003700070000000000000003,timestamp=2017-03-20T03:19:56.952+0000) The second half of communicating with anyone in the whole wide world is *LISTENING.* So wait, how many times did you *listen* to your team when they said,"No, I don't want to 2v1 bot; could you please go someone else or figure out a different strategy?" Obviously not a whole helluva lot since you got reported enough times for a rightful suspension. Ok, I'm just going to ignore the 8 paragraphs where the guy in silver 5 is trying to tell me that my strategy doesn't work, and focus on this part. Notice when you said: > So wait, how many times did you *listen* to your team when **they** said But then you said > No, **I** don't want to 2v1 bot; could you please go someone else or figure out a different strategy? Notice how you went from the collective "they" to the singular "I"? That's not just a grammatical mistake. You very clearly exposed the reason why this argument is so bad. The team is not some kind of collective hivemind. It's 4 other individuals, each with their own opinions and preferences. It's all well and good that you want what the team wants. The ridiculousness is assuming that one individual objecting reflects the preferences of the team as a whole. That's where this argument falls apart, because there's no way that this kind of standard can ever be upheld, because even individual preferences can be mutually exclusive. What if my top laner objects, but my bot laner is okay with it? What if my bot lane objects, but my jungler insists that he doesn't want to play with anything other than my Nunu? What if my mid laner objects, my bot laner says he's okay with it, and the top lane and jungler say nothing? What if no one says anything, but after I pick Nunu they decide they don't like it and speak up then? _Furthermore_, how do you reconcile this ridiculous position with Riot's explicitly stated position here: > Still, with intent to win confirmed, gameplay experimentation and innovation is something we stand behind even if it ruffles feathers. Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/79aGu3wR-support-singed-isnt-banable-but-thats-not-the-point?show=flat&comment=006b
elduris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=0037000700000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-20T03:01:24.614+0000) > > If I provided no actual support to my team, I wouldn't win games. Even people that leave games consistently or intentionally feed all game have been known to maintain a 50% winrate due to how frequently their team carries them to victory. Your claim that "if I didn't support my team I wouldn't win" isn't a good argument. > Your definition of Support seems to be measured in terms of 'time spent in bot lane bush' Nice strawman. No, I said that the "support" role goes to the **duo** lane with the bot player. Not specifically hiding in a bush. > and for all your emphasis on the fact that this strategy cedes first turret a lot, you haven't actually done any real statistical analysis even though the data is freely and easily available. Most of my ranked games are streamed and the VODs, spanning months, are there for you to watch. I've watched a ton of your games. Not only do you frequently give up first turret (400 gold), but also several kills. On average, from 5-6 kills per game, for a total of about 1600 gold. Provided, of course, you don't reset your score by nabbing a kill, then giving away more. > The fact is, my **team** gold advantage is consistently higher even if my bot lane is lower, and even my bot lane is typically only 5% behind on average. Oh, so you're not responsible for any of your team's losses, but you get to take credit for your team's wins? No, you need to share responsibility. > Are you familiar with the term 'selection bias'? LOL you're claiming selection bias. Pretty sure "people I played games with" are the only group of people whose opinions matter when it comes to this. People you didn't play games with should have no say. And if you don't want people reporting you for acting like an ass, don't act like an ass. That's simple enough even a bronze player could understand.
The "you only get carried!" arguments are just terrible, and deny a practical and statistical reality- that it's virtually impossible to get carried over the sample of games that I've played. Feel free to verify this yourself, go to: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx . I have 205 wins, out of 367 Nunu games. Let's take the argument that I'm getting carried to be the most generous definition of the word, and that my real winrate is only 49%. Enter probability of .49, trials at 367, and number of successes as 205. Notice that the chance I would have won this many games by luck is .0037. Enter in a lower probability and the number gets extremely low, incredibly fast. I've seen you claim several times Elduris that you have some sort of statistical argument against this strategy. Since I actually have a career in data analysis, this type of claim piques my interest. But it's now apparent to me that you don't, because you say things that even most people who've taken an AP course in high school wouldn't say. > Nice strawman. No, I said that the "support" role goes to the duo lane with the bot player. Not specifically hiding in a bush. The years-old assumption that the support should duo lane with the ADC is the very assumption the strategy is meant to challenge. The fact that this convention was established years ago in a much different game makes it ridiculous that people haven't even tried, and the reason they don't try is because this community is overwhelmingly intolerant to innovation outside of the competitive scene. It's sad that you try to defend that.
elduris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=00370007000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T02:27:34.434+0000) > > 'Support' is not a lane ... Support is a type of champion with an emphasis on team utility and low farm dependency. I think its funny you seem to not understand words can have multiple meanings. Support is not just a classification of champions, it is also a role. You can be of the "support" class and do no actual support to your team. Additionally, you can be of a different class and perform the "support" role. Take Vel'Koz or Brand for example. The support role is to go bottom in the duo lane with the Bot player. Doesn't matter if you think "support" isn't a lane or a direction, it is a role you play and it is defined as a partner to the Bot player. Ask literally anyone else. I shouldn't have to explain this to a Diamond player, yet here we are... > [{quoted}](name=Take the Draw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=00370007000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T02:27:34.434+0000) > > My teams prefer winning to losing. Seems to me your teams prefer not playing with you over either of these options. Though, I'll let your reports speak for themselves.
> [{quoted}](name=elduris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=003700070000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-20T02:48:27.075+0000) > > I think its funny you seem to not understand words can have multiple meanings. Support is not just a classification of champions, it is also a role. You can be of the "support" class and do no actual support to your team. Additionally, you can be of a different class and perform the "support" role. Take Vel'Koz or Brand for example. The support role is to go bottom in the duo lane with the Bot player. Doesn't matter if you think "support" isn't a lane or a direction, it is a role you play and it is defined as a partner to the Bot player. Ask literally anyone else. I shouldn't have to explain this to a Diamond player, yet here we are... If I provided no actual support to my team, I wouldn't win games. Nunu, and how I build and prioritize my abilities, is almost ENTIRELY a team utility-focused champion. Your definition of Support seems to be measured in terms of 'time spent in bot lane bush', and for all your emphasis on the fact that this strategy cedes first turret a lot, you haven't actually done any real statistical analysis even though the data is freely and easily available. Most of my ranked games are streamed and the VODs, spanning months, are there for you to watch. The fact is, my **team** gold advantage is consistently higher even if my bot lane is lower, and even my bot lane is typically only 5% behind on average. The whole way logical innovation works is that you recognize an inefficiency and you do something different that makes more sense. > > Seems to me your teams prefer not playing with you over either of these options. Though, I'll let your reports speak for themselves. Are you familiar with the term 'selection bias'? League of Legends doesn't poll people outside of the game. It doesn't even poll people within the game for positive feedback, outside of the Honor system, that's sparsely used. Making an inference about the population of players based off a severely misrepresentative sample is one of the silliest mistakes you can make.
: I am not balming you for the loss. I am blaming you giving your adc a negative experience. 1v2 is just not fun for 99% of the playerbase, and if you are 1v2 going adc is never the right choice. So you force him to either bend to your will against his, probably feed, while you are doing something that maybe can help. Even if you won the game based on what you did I would still report you. Not for picking off meta, but for giving me a bad experience. If you are premade with people who knows how things work go ahead, play it like you want, but if you wanna soloq just play somewhat similarly to what people expect. Also remember you might have most damage but that is likely just because you fought the most, cait and rengar have far fewer deaths since they backed out of fights instead of dying.
> [{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=0037000700000001,timestamp=2017-03-20T02:34:55.837+0000) > > I am not balming you for the loss. I am blaming you giving your adc a negative experience. 1v2 is just not fun for 99% of the playerbase, and if you are 1v2 going adc is never the right choice. So you force him to either bend to your will against his, probably feed, while you are doing something that maybe can help. Even if you won the game based on what you did I would still report you. Not for picking off meta, but for giving me a bad experience. If you are premade with people who knows how things work go ahead, play it like you want, but if you wanna soloq just play somewhat similarly to what people expect. Also remember you might have most damage but that is likely just because you fought the most, cait and rengar have far fewer deaths since they backed out of fights instead of dying. "A negative experience"? If the game isn't fun, that's a game design problem. Can you report a Janna because you think Janna isn't a fun support to play with? Should I tank the rest of my team's chances of winning the game because the ADC won't have enough fun if I don't play a certain way?
Ulanopo (NA)
: Are you calling the OP a liar? If you hijacked champion select with your normal spiel, that game had a whole lot to do with you and him. You demanded he leave his comfort zone so you could remain firmly in yours. Now, before you reply, consider this. If he had said, "That isn't going to work. Mid, jungle and I are on Discord and we're going to be playing a 3-man roaming gank squad. You need to pick a support that can defend bot while I'm not there" how would you have responded? If you're never going to compromise, then your team doesn't have to respect or tolerate you in the least.
> [{quoted}](name=Ulanopo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQBhwNJM,comment-id=0037000700000000,timestamp=2017-03-20T02:12:59.060+0000) > > Are you calling the OP a liar? If you hijacked champion select with your normal spiel, that game had a whole lot to do with you and him. You demanded he leave his comfort zone so you could remain firmly in yours. > > Now, before you reply, consider this. If he had said, "That isn't going to work. Mid, jungle and I are on Discord and we're going to be playing a 3-man roaming gank squad. You need to pick a support that can defend bot while I'm not there" how would you have responded? If you're never going to compromise, then your team doesn't have to respect or tolerate you in the least. This has nothing to do with "comfort zone". The problem with your bizarre analogy (3 person premade in solo queue...?) is that he was assigned 'Bottom', and so he would unambiguously be expected to go... bottom. 'Support' is not a lane, and the expectation that Support goes Bottom only exists because of the meta. Riot has stated, in no uncertain terms, that breaking the meta is not bannable. Support is a type of champion with an emphasis on team utility and low farm dependency. The client explicitly defines Nunu as a support. There's not some minimum time limit you need to be in a certain lane. I understand it would be _reasonable _for him to expect me to be bot with him, which is why I inform him that I won't be, so he can adjust accordingly. If he can't, or refuses to, then that's his decision. My teams prefer winning to losing. As a one trick pony, this is the only strategy I have that is viable at a high Elo level. If I do anything else, it would reduce our team's chances of winning drastically. So if the Caitlyn objects (which, by the way, he didn't), am I supposed to play first time champions in high Elo games and sabotage the other three players just so he can get a little more CS? How does this make sense to anyone? Honestly.
: Besides warding a lot you contributed nothing to the game though. You have 2k damage at 2 minutes... 800 of those are physical so you auto attacked an enemy maybe 10 times... in 20 minutes, and threw fewer snowballs. Your strategy is supposed to leave the enemy jungler weak but it did nothing, you never went bot so the 8k damage cait did is not your accomplishment either. The only thing that people are saying is your fault is leaving your bot laner dissatisfied, irritated and doing nothing all game, for that game not getting an assist is not your fault since there only is 3 kills but staying with your adc would likely get you more.
This is actually stupid. In no other context would a support be blamed for losing a game where both the mid lane and jungle did less damage individually over the course of the entire game than it takes to kill a single champion. The Caitlyn used a game that nothing to do with me- or him, for that matter- as an excuse to make a post for attention. That game was streamed by the way, and you can find it in my VODs for yesterday at twitch.tv/itslevi.
Rock MD (NA)
: I just played as AD to the Smite Support Nunu.
Oh hey, I'm the Nunu Support guy, this thread was just linked to me from someone from my stream (and this game was also streamed). For those of you wondering, this is the game in question: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2454084167/207632867?tab=stats Now click on 'Statistics' and focus especially on 'Total Damage to Champions'. Notice that, in the game in question, our Rengar had 1.5k dmg to champs, our Orianna had 1.4k dmg to champs, and the enemy NAMI had 5.4k. _But every single loss is my fault. _ Yeah, the strat feeds a lot. So what? This is addressed in the FAQ and I think people ridiculously overrate KDA because they can't separate causation from correlation. If you think I intentionally feed in games, or flame, or whatever other nonsense people make up,** actually provide a replay, screenshot, or a link to the game** or stop making things up.
: https://gyazo.com/a136e2f32357e3c2df491e833318f45d https://gyazo.com/92e49a808f4c46bd030ee1b9947374ed https://gyazo.com/f8d0956134ad632ddb6cc3978094ae08 https://gyazo.com/728e03cc479cd1ff534f21d8285d9b7f https://gyazo.com/db06dfe984c5369b252d4448678c1ed0 if this is how you communicate your intentions
> [{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=in96i6Yb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-01T00:57:35.138+0000) > > https://gyazo.com/a136e2f32357e3c2df491e833318f45d > > https://gyazo.com/92e49a808f4c46bd030ee1b9947374ed > > https://gyazo.com/f8d0956134ad632ddb6cc3978094ae08 > > https://gyazo.com/728e03cc479cd1ff534f21d8285d9b7f > > https://gyazo.com/db06dfe984c5369b252d4448678c1ed0 > if this is how you communicate your intentions You've been on this crusade for a while now. I like how you conveniently omitted in that first screenshot that my teammates actually found that funny. The second one is just a semantics thing- he obviously knows already what the strategy is, if he wants to call it a "double jungle" then trying to correct him would just be pointless, bad social skills, and maybe trigger an argument for no reason. It's very clear he was on board before I even said anything. The third screenshot the guy was filled Mid and I was Support. I explained to him that I don't mid and didn't want to role swap, and then proposed a way to make it work with our team's role preferences. I really don't know what you're getting at here, I don't think this could have been handled much better. The 4th/5th are just the same copy paste I make every game.
: I have played with this nunu before. He didn't tell me or anyone on the team what he was doing. I didn't die once in lane but I told him if he isn't going to be bot at least gank other lanes. He just afk farmed the enemy jg and died 5 or something times to a nocturn. Its super frustrating when he doesn't communicate with his team. After we went 4 and 10 and lost 3 towers. 4 of us just said open mid and then his first words in chat were "You guys fucking suck why give up so easily" I then replied its demoralizing to fight a 4v5 then we lost and I blocked him. You can tell how much his team hates him just by watching his stream in one of his games they were at botl ane inhib while he was still counter jungling them (imo I think he should be banned) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2415671663/230729012?tab=overview
> [{quoted}](name=IllegalBagel,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=JUNeEPL0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-28T21:48:14.796+0000) > > I have played with this nunu before. He didn't tell me or anyone on the team what he was doing. I didn't die once in lane but I told him if he isn't going to be bot at least gank other lanes. He just afk farmed the enemy jg and died 5 or something times to a nocturn. Its super frustrating when he doesn't communicate with his team. After we went 4 and 10 and lost 3 towers. 4 of us just said open mid and then his first words in chat were "You guys fucking suck why give up so easily" I then replied its demoralizing to fight a 4v5 then we lost and I blocked him. You can tell how much his team hates him just by watching his stream in one of his games they were at botl ane inhib while he was still counter jungling them (imo I think he should be banned) The most obvious clue that this guy is totally making this up is that despite being a very actively played account, he's S7 unranked and S6 Bronze. So no, you haven't played with me before. Nice try though.
Lorinne (NA)
: Saying they're "free to do what they want" is a cop-out. You're actively ignoring the needs and suggested strategies of your teammates in blind favor of your own. You act like you're the only one on your team that matters and no one else has anything worth your attention to offer. You can play a roaming support (although, if you never go down bot to "support" your ADC, you may want to change the name) but if it's not working with your team and _you're_ not working with your team, it's not an issue of "off-meta". It's an issue of you not communicating and not being a team player. You can't just copy/paste something at the start of the game and say, "Well, I've communicated. They can just suck it if they don't like it, and I'll ignore any requests or suggestions they make because 'baaaa!' meta sheep." Well, you can, but you get reported. I'm not arguing that off-meta is or should be bannable, so don't bother listing everything you wouldn't report as if that's relevant to anything being said. You admittedly don't compromise or meet half way and seemingly don't seem to even consider to entertain the vague possibility of doing so. I don't see why you're confused or offended about being reported if that's the attitude you present. Again, it's not an off-meta witch hunt; it's your team not appreciating how you present yourself.
> [{quoted}](name=Lorinne,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FrILlWp7,comment-id=00fc0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T15:41:30.744+0000) > > Saying they're "free to do what they want" is a cop-out. You're actively ignoring the needs and suggested strategies of your teammates in blind favor of your own. You act like you're the only one on your team that matters and no one else has anything worth your attention to offer. You can play a roaming support (although, if you never go down bot to "support" your ADC, you may want to change the name) but if it's not working with your team and _you're_ not working with your team, it's not an issue of "off-meta". It's an issue of you not communicating and not being a team player. You can't just copy/paste something at the start of the game and say, "Well, I've communicated. They can just suck it if they don't like it, and I'll ignore any requests or suggestions they make because 'baaaa!' meta sheep." Well, you can, but you get reported. > > I'm not arguing that off-meta is or should be bannable, so don't bother listing everything you wouldn't report as if that's relevant to anything being said. You admittedly don't compromise or meet half way and seemingly don't seem to even consider to entertain the vague possibility of doing so. I don't see why you're confused or offended about being reported if that's the attitude you present. Again, it's not an off-meta witch hunt; it's your team not appreciating how you present yourself. I've mentioned this numerous times and no one has actually responded. There is no team hivemind. There aren't 4 people who unify and say "we respectfully disagree with your decision Mr. Nunu main, and would like you to play a champion you've never played instead". This is how it ACTUALLY goes down when people object (from most to least likely): 1) Someone freaks out and implores someone else to dodge because it's their promo and I'm a feeder with terrible KDAs 2) Someone says they think my strategy is "bad" (I'm using "bad" as a substitute for the more colorful language they normally use). No discussion here, they just insist that because it's different, or because I lost with it the last time I played, or that I'm on a losing streak, that it's "bad". 3) Someone complains after the game already started and we started losing, and wants to blame the strategy for that. Maybe their blame is appropriate or maybe it's not, but that's not really the point, is it? 4) Someone feels uncomfortable with the strategy but actually wants to work through it. Here I'm happy to give them champion recommendations if they ask, but I know my own limitations as a player well enough to know that ultimately the best way to win is to run with the strategy regardless. I also know from experience that the strategy is not nearly as stifling to the bot lane as people seem to think (especially when they've never actually seen it themselves). If it was, it wouldn't work- I usually max W second, and my W would not be very strong if my ADC isn't very strong. Sure, I can try to improve on being less curt and assertive, but ultimately I believe it will have no bearing on the fact that if I continue this strategy that I'll get reported a lot for it.
Lorinne (NA)
: You act like you're communicating and trying to work with your team, but you're not. Then you act as if they're wrong by getting upset. Why are you "held hostage" when they want you to play a certain way, but you refusing to compromise and work with them is not considered the same thing? Either way, "Don't worry, there'll be plenty of tears" isn't a proper way to respond to "Can you help me get my tear?" That's just being a %%%%. You're making this into a meta vs non-meta deal, when considering how often you get reported despite winning and seeing how you respond to your teammates' non-hostile questioning just makes it clear to me that you're being reporting for being a dick. And that's all I'm trying to say. I don't care how often your strat works or doesn't work; you're being a dick to your teammates with the way you go about doing it. Maybe explain to your carry why you don't feel like you can help him right then and say you'll come down when you get a chance, instead of spouting some sarcastic troll-like BS. I don't blame the Blitz for thinking you were trolling and changing his pick to help the ADC considering the way you "communicate" with your teammates.
> [{quoted}](name=Lorinne,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FrILlWp7,comment-id=00fc00000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T14:50:35.712+0000) > > You act like you're communicating and trying to work with your team, but you're not. Then you act as if they're wrong by getting upset. Why are you "held hostage" when they want you to play a certain way, but you refusing to compromise and work with them is not considered the same thing? Either way, "Don't worry, there'll be plenty of tears" isn't a proper way to respond to "Can you help me get my tear?" That's just being a %%%%. That tears comment was actually to my stream, not team chat. I've said repeatedly my teammates are free to do whatever they want, provided they're actually trying to win the game. I've had AD Bards, bot lane Tele/Smite laning Master Yi's and other weird combination of stuff and never reported it. Some of if I think is just plain terrible from a strategic perspective, but I don't believe it's bannable. I don't "compromise" because there is no "compromise". There is no meeting halfway here- either I'm going to play roaming Nunu and run around the map actually making a difference or I'm going to sit uselessly in lane just because someone on my team is used to that and prefers it. What you mean by "compromise" is anything but. > > You're making this into a meta vs non-meta deal, when considering how often you get reported despite winning and seeing how you respond to your teammates' non-hostile questioning just makes it clear to me that you're being reporting for being a dick. And that's all I'm trying to say. I don't care how often your strat works or doesn't work; you're being a dick to your teammates with the way you go about doing it. Maybe explain to your carry why you don't feel like you can help him right then and say you'll come down when you get a chance, instead of spouting some sarcastic troll-like BS. I don't blame the Blitz for thinking you were trolling and changing his pick to help the ADC considering the way you "communicate" with your teammates. I explain what I'm doing with a paragraph explanation. I should not be expected to bust out exhibits in champion select and spend lots of time arguing back and forth like I am here. Defending the Blitzcrank, by the way, is totally ridiculous. It was completely hostile and he knew exactly what he was doing. Did you actually watch the VODs or are you just cross posting an inflammatory post and believing it without fact checking it?
Lorinne (NA)
: It's great that you're only presenting yourself in a positive manner, but the fact is you're getting reported in half of your games (regardless of win/lose) because you're playing Smite Support Nunu like a %%%% (not just because you're playing Smite Support Nunu). That's why you're being reported and punished. Not, "Oh, poor me, I'm off meta", but "Oh, I'm a %%%%." Bonus points for mentioning Phreak and being edgy. From Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/dotamasterrace/comments/5w9ewc/yet_again_rito_bans_user_for_not_playing_their/de9bs48/?st=izpeel0e&sh=8c97ce34 : "Just to be clear, his strategy is: "I'm going to do this, and you're going to like it" He won't pick another hero that would fit the teamcomp better, he won't alter his strategy. You're going to do what he wants and you're going to like it. Unsurprisingly, teammates don't like that, even if they win sometimes with it - It's like some dude in Dota telling you he's going to duo lane middle with IO whether you fucking like it or not, every single game, he'll pick IO and just sit in your midlane. Even if you win with the IO sometimes, you still have a shitty experience, because all your other lanes suffer. I don't give a shit if people play off-meta things as long as they let the team know they're doing it and make sure everyone actually wants it, or at least the person who they're supposed to be laning with is ok with it. When I start to get pissed off is when someone declares they're doing something stupid, the team says "Please don't" and then they do it anyways. I grabbed one of his vods - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/118596913 He tells his AD he's going to ditch him and do his own thing. His AD says "Uh.. can you help me get tear at least?" - His response is "Don't worry, if its like last game, there'll be plenty of tears". Unsurprisingly, he goes about his strategy, which is to "annoy the enemy team", which gets him killed multiple times. His team constantly complains it is a 4v5 game (Which it basically is) and is trying to surrender the entire time, since he's feeding his ass off, and the opponent ADC is huge. At 20 minutes he is 1/11/8. He ends the game 1/16/20. He locks his team into a 40 minute game that they don't want to play and tells them they should suck it up and play by his rules. Ok, so lets see his second game. He does the same thing, and goes into the enemy jungle to invade, gets caught and gives first blood to Master Yi, a snowbally hero. He then dies again. All the while, he's complaining his teammates are "less proactive" than the enemy team (While he continues to abandon his AD, who is being denied farm and experience). His team complains that the game is a joke, saying to report him (As he fails to invade over and over. They get stomped and it's not even close - Again, the enemy AD is a god, and his is weak. He gets into another champion select, he tells his team what he's doing, they tell him no, he does it anyways. People dodge the champion selection (Probably a good move). Gets into his next game - This causes his team to automatically not want to play, which gets him a smite Blitzcrank support, as his team assumes he's trolling. Again, he tries his stupid invade and gets first blooded. His team is complaining. He's jungling now because Blitzcrank assumed he was trolling. This game is closer, but still terrible because of the Nunu. Another loss. I've taken a lot of time typing this up, but from the VODS it looks pretty clear to me. Plays something people hate in a way people don't want, despite being asked not to Plays it in a highly risky manner, causing people to tilt off the face of the earth Plays it in a way that forces another member of his team to lane alone, ensuring a fed carry on the other team every game"
Except nothing in that post says anything that I haven't already stated - I've mentioned multiple times (even in the FAQ at the front of my Twitch page, which the guy even linked) that I do this strategy regardless of my bot lane's preferences. Just as they're free to do whatever they prefer. I find it amusing that the question to help the guy with tear was reworded with an additional "uhm" and "at least?" to make him sound as hapless and confused as possible. Staying in lane, eating free poke and soaking exp wouldn't help him at all. And the strategy is very early game focused, so even a minute spent in lane would have a very high opportunity cost. Most of that post is just saying that I'm feeding and get bad stats. Yeah, people lose games, but the strategic validity of the Nunu support is provable over a decent sample when you're not digging to cherrypick specific point in times where it's underperforming (whether it's my fault or not). Some of that post is just plain dumb, like blaming me for the "confused" Blitzcrank when I explained to him exactly what I was doing, and he picked Blitzcrank not because he was confused but _because he didn't like my strategy, and he was actually trying to steal MY role. _
: Wait wait... you think 50% of the people who reported him in hundreds of games is the minority???
> [{quoted}](name=UndyneUndying,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FrILlWp7,comment-id=00f0000c000200000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T14:02:11.477+0000) > > Wait wait... you think 50% of the people who reported him in hundreds of games is the minority??? 50% of GAMES is very different than 50% of PEOPLE. There are nine other people in the game and it only takes one for that game to count as a game I was reported in.
Skorch (NA)
: I made another post on what i consider meta, offmeta, and troll. And i DONT consider this to be a tactical disagreement. A tactical disagreement is "Hey lets get baron" "no man its a bad call" *team does baron, gets stolen* "reported" THAT is a tactical disagreement that no one should be reported for, it was a bad call. NOT (allegedly) bullying his team into HIS tactic. And if they dont go along with it, and pick a safe pick bot, you will have a bad lane. Essentially http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/7MEZy0ss-with-the-nunu-support-debate-going-on-i-decided-to-talk-about-what-is-meta-and-trolling There is the post where i talk about what i think is trolling compared to offmeta. What this player (allegedly) did was bully his team into a strat that (while successful) they didnt want.
> [{quoted}](name=Skorch,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hJHsyQwA,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2017-02-28T13:28:59.767+0000) > > I made another post on what i consider meta, offmeta, and troll. And i DONT consider this to be a tactical disagreement. > > A tactical disagreement is "Hey lets get baron" "no man its a bad call" *team does baron, gets stolen* "reported" THAT is a tactical disagreement that no one should be reported for, it was a bad call. > > NOT (allegedly) bullying his team into HIS tactic. And if they dont go along with it, and pick a safe pick bot, you will have a bad lane. > > Essentially http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/7MEZy0ss-with-the-nunu-support-debate-going-on-i-decided-to-talk-about-what-is-meta-and-trolling There is the post where i talk about what i think is trolling compared to offmeta. > > What this player (allegedly) did was bully his team into a strat that (while successful) they didnt want. Once again I see the collective "they" to describe my team as if the other four people on the team are all some kind of hivemind who don't individually have their own opinions. That's why this argument is ludicrous, because you don't mean "the team", you mean literally anybody. I've had top laners complain about this strategy even when no one else said anything. Am I bullying them? The only fair assumption is that, on average, the team would prefer winning to losing, and this is most winning strategy that I can execute.
: Hey, so slightly off topic and I know you are probably slammed with message notifications and all, but do you stream or have footage up of your games? I am really interested in seeing this supp Nunu strat you have in action.
Yes, twitch.tv/itslevi has a collection of VODs.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: As said, it was mostly out of interest. I understand that you can't dodge every time somebody objects to your strategy. I was mostly curious about what exactly you consider to be an "abysmal" winrate. Being willing to dodge (i.e. a dodge has a better outcome than the "expectation value" of the game) puts it into a better perspective.
The LP penalty doesn't affect MMR, so any LP you lose, you get back in the form of reduced losses/increased gains in subsequent games. It's actually the timer penalty that makes me avoid dodging, not the EV of winning vs the LP loss.
TrulyBland (EUNE)
: Just out of interest: What would you do if Nunu is banned or picked before you can pick him?
I dodge. But I don't mind the dodge penalty in the <1% of cases I somehow can't secure Nunu. If I dodged just because my teammates objected, I wouldn't ever be able to start a game.
: Here we are again! The case of_ “Unusual Pick that Throws A Game on Its head”_ vs _“The Teammates going WTF Is Going On”_. [If you’re just tuning in we previously covered this topic with a similar case in December: “Support Singed isn't bannable, but that's not the point”. ](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/79aGu3wR-support-singed-isnt-banable-but-thats-not-the-point?comment=006b) We feel that the situation between these two edge cases are very similar. But it’s obvious we need to keep updating a few processes to smooth out any rare repeats in the future. And rare is what we’d call this; it’s a very unique edge case that seems to only present itself once every few months among thousands of audits that we process. Let’s re-iterate our stance from before: **Q: Can I get banned for choosing a champion or strategy that is outside the current meta?** A: 100% no. Choosing a champion or strategy outside of the current meta is not a factor we take into account when reviewing accounts. On any given day tens of thousands of players are making unusual picks in the game and they’ll never receive penalties in any form. **Q: So why does this issue keep coming up? What makes it different?** A: Riot Gromp said it best in the previous post when they stated: “...common sense and good sportsmanship say that experimenting players need to clearly communicate intent and win conditions to their teammates.” League of Legends is a team game and sometimes the biggest challenge can be coordinating with 4 other strangers who share a common goal; victory. If a player is going to rewrite the rules for the rest of their team then there is more pressure to properly communicate to everyone what they want the plan to be, and what they think everyone should do to achieve it. But wait! Communication doesn’t stop after you press the Enter button on your keyboard; and that’s where we saw a problem in this particular case. All of us need to be aware of the difference of communicating “with” someone vs. communicating “at” someone. _Telling your team what you’re going to do and then ignoring them isn’t really working with them it’s holding them hostage_. Telling your team what you want to do and actually working towards a common plan is a central part to playing any team based game. In this case what we observed was an expert Nunu counter-jungler throwing the meta on it’s head with a respectable win rate of 53%. While pretty impressive on it’s own, we also found that nearly 50% of their games were reported by teammates as frustrating and unfun. Keep in mind, this isn’t just teammates in losing games, this is teammates across all of his games; victories included. The message was pretty clear to us, this player is serious about_ Making Nunu Great Again_ but they are leaving a trail of dissatisfaction, frustration, and anger in their wake. Winning is not the end all be all of League. We want players to have fun but not at the expense of teammates. Ideally this means players will coordinate among themselves in a given match and react to the unique circumstances they end up in. If a player is consistently forcing “their vision” on the rest of the team **and **refusing to adapt to their needs we reserve the right to intervene. That’s what happened here (and before with the Singed case); players cried out how terrible the experience was for them and we intervened. Moving forward we’re going to keep updating our processes for these edge cases. We will still be on the lookout for situations where a player is creating a really negative experience for everyone else and we will intervene when necessary. In this case it’s undeniable that TakeTheDraw wants to win even if their approach leaves a lot to be desired. The effects on others in his games were enough for us to lock the account and we stand by that. But our agents were not properly prepared with a process to handle this edge case when they wrote in and that is on me. I will be working with the team to clarify an escalation process that emphasizes clearer feedback and opens the door for ban reductions if we believe that someone can make changes to their play style allowing them to continue crushing the meta but not at the expense of their teammates.
Thank you for the detailed response. My main lingering question is this- What do I do if my teammates object? I very simply cannot play a lane support at the rating that I'm at. If they refuse, what am I expected to do? My winrate would be abysmal and I get the impression that the primary (but yes, not only) reason people report me is because they incorrectly believe that I'm intentionally trying to hurt their chances of winning.
: We only have one game to base this argument off of. Human nature suggests he put the best vid of him to entice so many people onto his side. I for one don't know the full story and won't pick a side until we find out more than just one game and an explanation by the player
> [{quoted}](name=byakugan123,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hJHsyQwA,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-02-28T02:24:21.808+0000) > > We only have one game to base this argument off of. Human nature suggests he put the best vid of him to entice so many people onto his side. I for one don&#x27;t know the full story and won&#x27;t pick a side until we find out more than just one game and an explanation by the player It was my most recent game, but yes, the strategy was exceptionally effective that particular game - no denying that. It does not usually work quite that well. I also attribute a lot of that to my team's attitude going in- the Caitlyn in that game was on the receiving end of this strategy in a different game as jungler, and knew firsthand that it could work. That said, I did an almost identical strategy in the last game of season 4 that got me into Challenger the night before the season ended. I would not say that game was a fluke.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tupaco,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hJHsyQwA,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-27T19:43:14.209+0000) > > Yea he did nothing wrong https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752884-Reporting-a-Player#h2q3 > > &amp;quot;3) DO NOT REPORT A SUMMONER FOR TACTICAL DISAGREEMENTS&amp;quot; > > riot if your support team doesn&amp;#039;t know the rules to your own report system then you are all doing something wrong... > > > Thanks to &amp;quot;SwainLaneWinGame&amp;quot; for posting that in comments of the original post all credit to him for this find I&amp;#039;m just decided it deserves its own post. He wasn't reported for a tactical disagreement. He was reported for not following the principles of a team based game.
> [{quoted}](name=BigBellBrute,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=hJHsyQwA,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-02-28T01:26:04.840+0000) > >He was reported for not following the principles of a team based game. Help only one person, instead of everyone?
Elikain (EUNE)
: >I'm also not entirely sure where this "failing to communicate" thing is coming from. I type a paragraph long explanation at the beginning of every champion select. I communicate more than almost anyone I've played with in game both with pings and chat since working with my team is essential to my strategy's success. There's a difference between _**communicating with**_ your team and _**communicating at**_ your team. Your team does not want you to play support Nunu with a smite and is not willing to work with you and you keep doing it anyway. They don't trust you. And you can't force them to trust you with a pick because if you do that, that's how you garner reports the easy way. It's the same problem the Singed guy had. You think you're doing good but in fact you're forcing your pick on your team, with a Smite no less. Does this help you in lane at all? It certainly doesn't help your Marksman. It's a jungler's SS so it's pretty much off the rails to even opt into helping your jungler and not your Marksman by default. You occupy the bot lane when you assume the role of a support so you have to play according to that lane, not any other lane. Your Nunu does not have a {{item:2049}}, at all. But your Ivern does sometimes. You play both of them with Smite so i can guess that Ivern is Jungle and Nunu can be either way but you gravitate towards supporting more with him. Still, no duo lane oriented Summoner's and no Sightstone. _**Two dead giveaways of you clearly thinking that traditional supporting is below your "pay grade". Even a support MF buys Sightstone so you have no excuses not to buy the only support item that's mandatory.**_ >Since I queue Support/Jungle, I get Autofill protection, which means that I am guaranteed one of these two roles. http://i.imgur.com/tpVEVpK.png[/img] You do not get Autofill protection when you queue up as a support/jungle. You may get Autofill protection when you support (regardless if you got autofilled or not) but that surely doesn't last forever or stacks? >Very obviously the specialist is interpreting my Support Nunu with Smite as stealing the Jungle role, despite the contradictory claim that off meta picks were okay. Riot can clearly look at your match history and look at the details, if you can do the same through a 3rd party site... _**Your case was manually audited.**_ Which means that a few specialists sat down and taken a deep look at your match history and have done the analysis of the reports in the games you received them. It's pretty funny how you think that Smite is what threw them off as you are practically implying like they didn't to their job and made a judgement call in mere seconds, with just a glance at your summoner's. >I've worked very hard to develop a strategy that's viable at high Elo with a champion that's mostly been forgotten, and Riot has essentially empowered people to reject it just because they don't want to try anything new. Riot isn't enforcing or forbidding any new strategies from developing. _**You garnered a lot of reports**_ and Riot took a look at them. Is the issue here coming from you not believing you deserved the punishment or what? It isn't Riot who did this to you, people that you play with clearly don't approve. There are two possible reasons: Either you aren't doing something right or you're not communicating your intentions clearly. Getting trust from random players with unorthodox picks, strategies and summoner's is not getting you anywhere and you still do it. It doesn't matter that you believe in what you do if you can't make others believe in you as well. It's a 4v1 situation at that point and you're the odd man out. The majority has ruled you out so you incur punishments for your actions against the group.
That was a lot of stuff- a lot of it just obviously wrong, some of it opinion, some of it wild speculation (how do you know how Riot's auditing process works? A few specialists sat down and took a deep look? **SOURCE?**) None of if it actually addressing the point about stealing people's roles, the reason Riot actually cited. Regardless, I'll start with the easy stuff: The Autofill protection for Supports is in the NEXT game you play. Since I always queue Support/Jungle (or Jungle/Support if I feel like playing Ivern), then I always have this. It would not show up in your client because you did not queue support or autofill last game. I'm not even sure why you would try to argue this, or why it didn't cross your mind that if this wasn't how it worked, why no one else has brought it up. This is literally, just crystal clear, how the system works. The build path for Ivern and Nunu is different because their jungle clears are totally different. Why would I torch 800 gold on a Sightstone as Nunu if I'm building Tracker's/Cinderhulk anyway? I don't build Cinderhulk on Ivern because his jungle clear passive is totally different and things like immolation damage to jungle camps and lifesteal in the jungle does literally nothing. I'm not even sure why you would bring this up. My warding statistics as Support are quite a bit higher than the supports I play against anyway. The more subjective stuff: Communicating "with" vs communicating "at". I am a one trick pony. My winrate is highest playing Nunu by a landslide and this is the best way to play Nunu support that I've found and works for me. My teams want to win- most of their objections are because they incorrectly assume that this strategy is antithetical to that. I know for a fact that this is by far my team's best chance of winning when I'm supporting. Their objections are based on misconceptions from a far more limited point of view that know nothing of my own preferences and specializations. So yes, I can ignore their requests (demands?) to play something else, just like they can ignore mine (which they often do). Furthermore, where do you draw the line here? I don't think I've ever had 4 people unianimously and explicitly oppose my strategy in champion select. What if 2 people disagree, 1 person agrees, and 1 person says nothing? What if my top lane disagrees? What if no one says anything, but later when the game starts, and we start losing, they start complaining? It's a totally ridiculous expectation for solo queue. The number of reports don't matter if the reports aren't justified. That is, presumably, the reason the process isn't totally automated. The "pay grade" comment is just honestly ridiculous. I play support far more proactively than most people and center my build and ability priorities over strengthening the team.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Necroside,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FrILlWp7,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2017-02-26T08:59:29.964+0000) > > lol what is this I just don't even
: Upvote and bump till I see a Red reply. I get the Singed 'support' thing, he was just not playing support at all. This doesn't seem to be the case here. But (sorry OP) you could still be lying to us. But this feels less like a lie.
The majority of my games are streamed. The ones that aren't are usually normals with friends.
: How much of that gold in on you instead of your adc though? 1 Nunu gold is not equal to 1 Jhin gold, for example. How far behind in gold is your adc in the average game? How about at the 15 minute mark? You can expect their gold lead to shrink once laning phase is over but your adc is almost guaranteed to be multiple thousand gold behind by that point.
This is only comparing the carry in bot lane vs the carry in the enemy bot lane.
: Support isn't **that** bad, and neither is autofill. At least you get to play the game instead of getting hard zoned off every wave and constantly dove while your "support" counterjungles.
Again, the data does not support this assumption. The bot lanes in my games are only 600 gold behind the enemy bot lane on average, and they get solo experience. This is also conditioned assuming an even mix of wins and losses- the actual results (considering I win more often than I lose) are probably even closer. It's just very easy to punish the enemy bot lane if they're overly aggressive, and their jungler is almost never in a position to dive because I follow them everywhere.
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Take the Draw

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