: That's mostly cause riot considers other forms of utillity as 'hidden power' and keeps them out of the game. Buffs, auras, **DEBUFFS** would all be ways contribute to a fight with neither raw damage nor raw CC and thus would suit a tank. AS slows for example used to be a thing, now Malphs E is the only one remaining. Sonas W-Passive proc is the only damage debuff on a champ. Nearsight/blind effects also have some more room in the game. Brittle is a somewhat interesting mechanic that so far only Orn uses. I also really wouldn't say that bruisers and mages have much more diversity.
To be completely fair, auras are legitimately hard to balance on top of being largely invisible if done wrong (old Sona, many old aura items), Trundle type debuffs are extra invisible and while not as hard to balance are far more awkward, and strict Buff type abilities are extremely prone to being abused by Funnel Comps. It's not that Riot won't explore these spaces (see Yuumi), it's just that these mechanics have a history of balancing vs gameplay problems, very long and very troubled histories no less.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P731uotQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-05T06:22:12.992+0000) > > Ahh, just gonna hop on that last comment. > > Pixel brush is nice against Aggro Junglers but the REALLY great wards are a deep ward on the enemy Raptor or Blue around the 1:00 mark. Just one of the two will give you a pretty good idea of what the enemy Jungler is gonna do. Having both tells you exactly what kind of Route the enemy Jungler is taking, and their entire early game plan. They're a little risky, so it's best either to a) ward the topside of the map (enemy Raptor if Blue Team, enemy Blue if Red team), b) go ward as a 2-3 man squad, and c) avoid the hell out of level 1 monsters like Braum or Aatrox. However, as I said, even one is a lot and two would be perfect. Those deep wards you are talking about are pointless and risky. If you watch the map and know your champs,, you doubt need to see the jg start to know where he is. Also, if you even get seen dropping that ward, the enemies are more likely to ward jg at start, making it very risky to go vertical even if enemy jg is elsewhere. You cut off half the available map dropping that ward! You should know that if you playe jungle and know invading...
Those deep wards I'm talking about give actual information for their risk, whereas the Pixel Bush wards give no information for no risk. Check out my second response to Another Feeder where I play out the scenarios for him. The _only_ scenario where what you're saying is relevant is when both of us are starting Red. Except. I'm going to notice when people respond with their own wards to my deep ward on the enemy Blue. I play Lv3 AOE Junglers for the most part, meaning I could just pivot into a Red->Raptors->Krugs->Lv3 Gank on the side lane since I know that ward is typically down, or Red-Krugs->Raptors into Mid Lane if the Mid Laner was the one who warded. Off of that Gank, I've often created my own lane priority, allowing me to much more safely continue into Vertical Jungling even if the enemy Jungle is warded. Not to mention this all gets accelerated in the few games where I decide to play a true Lv2 Jungler like Xin Zhao or Udyr, in which case, yeah go ahead and ward the enemy Jungle. Easier ganks for me and my champion is better at fighting to the death that early than anyone else even if I am caught.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P731uotQ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-05T09:20:16.269+0000) > > Dude that hasn't been relevant since the Scuttle spawn's been delayed. > > If this was pre-9.9 the pixel bush is godsend to detect early Scuttles and react around that. Nowadays the Jungle is heavily tilted towards Lv3 Junglers, meaning the pixel bush especially placed at 1:15 is completely useless since the vast majority of Junglers aren't even going to enter the river that early (or at least that part of the river. Faster Junglers are able to hit a sidelane _just_ before the Scuttle spawn). > > Post 9.9, the most valuable information is knowing which variant of the Lv3 route the enemy Jungler is taking: > Blue/Wolves/Raptors/Red (and backwards) > Blue/Gromp/Wolves/Red (and backwards) > Red/Raptors/Krugs > Raptors (leashless)/Red/Krugs > Red/Krugs/Raptors/Gank Mid > > Literally in only one of these 5 routes is the pixel bush relevant. The first two and the pixel bush could despawn just as the Junglers finish up their second buff and enter the middle of the River, the third and fourth sets up a sidelane gank, the fourth is a common leashless route meaning it's harder to tell which direction the enemy is going, and the fifth is the most uncommon and hardest to pull off well since the Scuttle spawn delay. The Raptor ward gives you information on all 5 of these routes, and the Blue ward could at least guarantee what side of the map the Jungler started on. > > You're working with old info. It was good info, hell amazing game changing info just a month ago, but 9.9 changed the Jungle metagame hard and the pixel bush isn't important anymore. K, so when I start my red, into your blue. And u don't even get to know I've done it until im already gone and your pathing into cleared camps. You can sit around wondering why the fuck you were worrying about what time the scuttle crab spawned. The pixel bush is for ALL counter jungling, it didnt become a useful ward for helping your jungler know if they're being countered or not because of the crab change.
Look let me play you a few scenarios for you. I always ward the same side I start, so Raptors into my Blue or Blue into my Red. Now let's say I start Red, you start Blue I see you matching my pathing. Nothing crazy happens and I can decide to run out onto the River based on which one of us has the stronger Lv3. Priority is on my side. Let's say I start Blue and you start Red. Because of Cowsep, I always kill my Blast Cone before starting Blue. You have three options of avoiding my Raptor Ward into a viable option based on your Jungler. You can run through the Tribush into a gank on the nearest Sidelane, you can run around your Red into a Gank mid, or you can run around to my Blast Cone and try to kill me at Wolves. I knocked out one of those options, and the other two are only viable if you are playing a high kill pressure Lv2 like Xin Zhao or Jarvan, at which point I am usually asking my Side Laner to ward the Tribush and my Mid Laner to hover on my Red/your Blue side of the map for the first 2.5 minutes of the game. Granted, my laners could be dummies and you get the gank off, but this is not the counter jungling scenario you describe and that pixel bush ward wouldn't save my apparently dummy laners in the first place. Priority is more or less on my side in this scenario, given my teammates aren't monkeys. Let's say both of us are starting Red. I see you're not doing your Blue Buff. We initiate Vertical Jungling, apparently. Neutral priority. Let's say both of us are starting Blue. I don't know which direction you're gonna go after starting Blue and you may just decide to run straight to my Red and swipe it before I get there. Alright fine, you got me. Of the four possible scenarios based on which buff we started, in the most uncommon of the four, you can swipe my Red without me even knowing. Now granted, almost nobody starts Blue Side Blue Buff, let alone with an express goal of Counter Jungling, but let's ignore that. Let's also ignore that if I followed your advice, my Pixel Bush, guarding my own Blue, doesn't tell me when you'd invade. But then you say I'm supposed to ward my opposite Pixel. Fair enough, I do that and you walk around the Tribush, or more realistically you're playing a champion who can hop over the Dragon wall. Still a useless ward so far. But you know what, you got me. You started at your Blue and successfully Counter Jungled me in the most unlikely scenario where the pixel bush ward you proposed would still be useless. Two claps for you.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P731uotQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-05T06:22:12.992+0000) > > Ahh, just gonna hop on that last comment. > > Pixel brush is nice against Aggro Junglers but the REALLY great wards are a deep ward on the enemy Raptor or Blue around the 1:00 mark. Just one of the two will give you a pretty good idea of what the enemy Jungler is gonna do. Having both tells you exactly what kind of Route the enemy Jungler is taking, and their entire early game plan. They're a little risky, so it's best either to a) ward the topside of the map (enemy Raptor if Blue Team, enemy Blue if Red team), b) go ward as a 2-3 man squad, and c) avoid the hell out of level 1 monsters like Braum or Aatrox. However, as I said, even one is a lot and two would be perfect. Wut? No... just ward the pixel brush, it'll tell u the same information without requiring an invade or all the risks involved with those deep wards. If the JG started on a side, (you can tell based on which side leashed) and did not cross the pixel ward, then u know they went to their opposite side jg. If they went towards your jg, you know they are verticle jungling and you need to invade their side.
Dude that hasn't been relevant since the Scuttle spawn's been delayed. If this was pre-9.9 the pixel bush is godsend to detect early Scuttles and react around that. Nowadays the Jungle is heavily tilted towards Lv3 Junglers, meaning the pixel bush especially placed at 1:15 is completely useless since the vast majority of Junglers aren't even going to enter the river that early (or at least that part of the river. Faster Junglers are able to hit a sidelane _just_ before the Scuttle spawn). Post 9.9, the most valuable information is knowing which variant of the Lv3 route the enemy Jungler is taking: Blue/Wolves/Raptors/Red (and backwards) Blue/Gromp/Wolves/Red (and backwards) Red/Raptors/Krugs Raptors (leashless)/Red/Krugs Red/Krugs/Raptors/Gank Mid Literally in only one of these 5 routes is the pixel bush relevant. The first two and the pixel bush could despawn just as the Junglers finish up their second buff and enter the middle of the River, the third and fourth sets up a sidelane gank, the fourth is a common leashless route meaning it's harder to tell which direction the enemy is going, and the fifth is the most uncommon and hardest to pull off well since the Scuttle spawn delay. The Raptor ward gives you information on all 5 of these routes, and the Blue ward could at least guarantee what side of the map the Jungler started on. You're working with old info. It was good info, hell amazing game changing info just a month ago, but 9.9 changed the Jungle metagame hard and the pixel bush isn't important anymore.
: Nice tips. I'd like to add some matchup info as well. If your jungler is a carry, they are going to path to get themselves ahead. If they're a tanky initiator, they're more likely to path to get their win condition lanes ahead. Some junglers are going to probably PvE till 6, like eve. It's not a good idea to force fights, even when they're in the area, if you have one of these junglers. Their success is mostly dictated by how quickly they are able to hit 6. Warding pixel brush at around 1:15 helps the jg out alot.
Ahh, just gonna hop on that last comment. Pixel brush is nice against Aggro Junglers but the REALLY great wards are a deep ward on the enemy Raptor or Blue around the 1:00 mark. Just one of the two will give you a pretty good idea of what the enemy Jungler is gonna do. Having both tells you exactly what kind of Route the enemy Jungler is taking, and their entire early game plan. They're a little risky, so it's best either to a) ward the topside of the map (enemy Raptor if Blue Team, enemy Blue if Red team), b) go ward as a 2-3 man squad, and c) avoid the hell out of level 1 monsters like Braum or Aatrox. However, as I said, even one is a lot and two would be perfect.
: U.gg is the one that I use now
u.gg suffers from tiny sample sizes depending on which filters you use, so I'd be careful with that too.
: Can you guys send me a jungle guide? I've seen many but none of them specify for new jungler, I have many parts that I don't understand like **What to do after ganking**,**Ganking or Objectives**, etc...
I like to use skill-capped. - [Here's an early game Routing Guide](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsbdrED2fTo&t=425s) - [Here's a NSFW camping Guide (ignore the first half of this guide, it was made based on pre 9.9 Scuttle, nowadays you usually start opposite of a snowball lane unless you are specifically playing a Lv2 Jungler like Xin Zhao or Jarvan). The second half of the guide gives good pointers as for what to do after a gank and how to abuse the shit out of a lane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCUaMUVVJb4) In general though, after the gank you want to do two things, check your and your laner's HP bars and look at the state of the lane. If either of you are below 50% HP, especially against anyone who can roam over and has high kill pressure, just back. You got a gank off, probably a kill, good job. If you or both of you are high enough HP though, you need to decide if you want to push the lane or freeze the lane. [Here is a guide on freezing lane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjD2rGFua8s), and if a freeze is not optimal for the situation, you should shove it up to tower. If you have a GIGANTIC minion wave, or if your laner starts hitting them, kill the next wave that comes to you under tower. Otherwise, just ignore them while you whack the tower. This will cause the lane to bounce back towards your laner, setting up you and your laner for more power plays (see the NSFW camping guide). Killing the next minion wave under the enemy tower's will cause a complete reset, which is good for very specific matchups {{champion:62}} {{champion:80}} but it's really not optimal so avoid if you can. What you do after all that is champion and route specific though. Instead of Ganking **or** Objectives, you should really think Ganking _and_ Objectives. With that said however, let's say you see a laner or the Jungler roam over and gank the opposite side of the map, do you gank, do you solo the Dragon/Herald, or do you hold/shove the nearest lane? Once again, this is champion specific, but these are the options you should be weighing in your mind. After all that, you transition into the midgame like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQvoWcH37O4 And, well, that's your Jungling Guide.
: Jungle help
So first of all, don't tryhard ganks with Yi. Your priority is powerfarming first and foremost. You have two gank windows right at the beginning and end of your clears, poke your head out shortly and just back if you don't see them. Kindred brings a lot of damage to a gank, but other than Red Buff she's not that good for much else. Your opponent must be low on health, pushed up, immobile, or you're working with a teammate who can follow you up. Pick at least 2. Your champions aren't designed for powerganks, You're playing for scaling first and ganking _opportunities_ second.
: What am I doing wrong in order to get a S/S+?
Go into your Profile Page (in the client) and look for the "Stats" tab. It gives you all the significant factors that go into grading you over your last few games.
: How do you deal with Yi as Nasus?
Nasus statchecks Yi in the midgame. Game is to try to accelerate the game too quickly for Yi to scale up into the late game.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I understand the writhing similarity thingy, I wrote a guide for Dota a long while ago and used another guide as a blue print for layouts as it was my first hero guide and got complained that it's copied, when the other guy had sections that mine didn't and vice versa. He talked a whole lot how armor works since the hero has armor reduction while I didn't at all, due to Dreams limited chars per section, I had 3 sections dedicated only to mid lane match-ups, which the other guy didn't, and a lot of similar things, but what I did in the end was post a forenote with "hey, I used this [link] as a blue print so it will look similar" type of thing. Anyway, sorry for blaming for copy. That 1st part didn't help, plus a while ago a guy copied Shadiversity's female armor vid here on the boards, so.... Still, good job on the post. I for one love Skill Capped, they have super good vids, and high quality.
I feel ya. Wrote about trading card games a LOOONG time ago and while not accused of copying, I was often confused with another writer who did strategy and analysis for the game we played. Anyway with that said, no prob, I completely recognize why it came up so no hard feelings. Thanks for the compliment, and I love Skill Capped too. If only the Gameplay Boards was more like that then complaining about the game~
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I would say nice post....But....it's almost a 1-1 from a video on YouTube. Not sure which was it, Skill Capped or someone else, but I know for sure I watched one saying almost exactly the same thing. Now, I'm not mad that you shared, but if it's indeed a copy and not a coincidence (can happen) at least share the original to give credit. If it's just a coincidence, ignore my comment.
You're probably thinking of Skill-Capped's Complete 9.9 Jungling Guide, as well as a mix of multiple other Jungle Route guides they make, which is more of a guide for Junglers to learn the Jungle, as opposed for everyone to ward Lv1. While I'm certain skill-capped has bits and pieces covering each ward spot for each individual route (I know my description of the Raptor Ward and the Predator Route _is_ basically a one for one transcript), there's no all-in-one guide for warding since the 9.9 scuttle changes, which this post was intended to be. There's only so many ways to Jungle optimally however, so many wards to counter those routes, and I and whoever writes for skill-capped have similar writing styles, so this ultimately results in a very samey feel; I can recognize that. I'm sorry if this does look like copying.
Laura ß (NA)
: Just one of many reasons this games trash and you should never play it to relax after a hard day
Okay I mean, he's playing Shyvana, the not ganking part was a given. I would like to think however that it's okay for players to try new stuff in Normals.
YaraUwU (NA)
: Hey if the jg says ward something lvl one i ward that shit. Even with the xp nerfs jg is still the most impactful role in the game and can easily control a match better then any other role. Hell id love to main jg if it had any champions i liked and i didnt feel like such a detriment to my team for being terrible.
: Very solid post. This is good information and I hope people get a chance to read it! Only thing I would suggest is perhaps expanding the example champions that are shown for each type of jungler. It's really cool that you showed any at all (and even covered some of the more unexpected / unique junglers) but it might be nice for some people who are trying to learn to be able to see what kind of jungler Shaco, Rengar, or Warwick tend to be for example. Also, having example pictures of the warding locations / pathing you're talking about could help people follow what you're talking about, but your descriptions were spot on and really did paint a clear picture regardless. {{sticker:sg-ahri-2}}
I would love to be able to list and organize all the Junglers that way, but the big problem is just how many of them are good at (or at least okay with) doing a 4 camp Control clear, greatly bloating the Control section and making the distinction a little arbitrary, and especially more muddy when the enemy Jungler decides to yell "fuck it" and be unpredictable. It's far more effective to go with using the Raptor and Blue Buff wards to read the enemy Jungler's movements and predicting their clear off that. With that said, I could articulate that particular point better, and I should probably add that in...somewhere. Later though. Will look into pictures. Unfortunately I burned all my free time this afternoon just writing all of this so they will also have to come later.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Kai Guy (NA)
: Dog, Folks complained about {{champion:157}} being weak on release for the first few days.
Woah hey, man, context. Those same idiots were the ones rushing IE on Yasuo on release.
: I feel like his early game still got a passive buff with the scuttle change he can now successfully get a kill/assist at lvl 2, take enemy teams buff gank one more time successfully then take scuttle in that time window, however IMO xin falls off late game hard unless he catches someone split pushing
Okay, I'm not sure what that has to do with this change.
: > [{quoted}](name=No Ganks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uE0QEAcF,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-08T22:13:32.139+0000) > > [New] If Master Yi has struck less than the maximum amount of times and there are no other nearby eligible targets, he strikes the same target for 25% damage before checking again > Duration changed from [variable] to 0.8 > > > Guinsoo's Rageblade > [Changelist] > Phantom hit frequency increased from [every 2 attacks] to [every 3 attacks] > Armor penetration changed from [6%+0.5% per lvl (15% Max)] to 15% > Magic penetration changed from [6%+0.5% per lvl (15% Max)] to 15% > > Ok so what these changes promote are for yi to never go on hit cause to be honest hes not even strong unless funneled as it is he is balanced this is rage blade nerf removes about 20% of his damage .But with the Q change it promotes a 1 shot crit style that legit gets to a point of 0 counter play at full build yis Q will hit most squishy targets for around 1900 damage .So I don't really understand why these are the changes you are doing it makes yi less fun and it makes playing vs him less fun . > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uE0QEAcF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-08T23:01:44.673+0000) > > That Q change is only relevant if you're running around all by yourself. No minions, no Jungle monsters, just you and Yi in the middle of nowhere. > > At that point if you're caught by a Yi in that position, you probably deserve to die anyway. Holy shit this is the new Yi change? That's a huge deal! No! Q is entirely designed aroung *hitting multiple targets.* That's where it should be getting it's full value, it exactly *shouldn't* be getting extra value for a single target. Yi is already a strong duelist from early to mid game, and then some games there are problems where he snowballs out of control. One of the few good methods for preventing him from snowballing is counterjungling him from the very beginning. Taking what little ability most junglers have to do that away is crazy when he already strong single target and multitarget squisher. Is Riot trying to drive this game dead?
Calm down dude, this isn't youtube, stop selling the kool-aid.
: all recent bruiser releases/reworks have been overloaded do we not remember {{champion:164}}'s release?
[Relevant /dev article](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2016/12/dev-on-evolving-the-laning-fighter/).
: What am I doing wrong?
Well your recent statistics say you're not doing that much wrong, and especially when you're playing Support Nautilus, don't undervalue assists cuz you do seem to get plenty of that. Guessing from how you listed off 3 things and then said "other stuff", I strongly suspect you're trying too hard to learn too many things all at once and are failing at that. Focus on one thing at a time if and when you can and get good at that one specific thing before learning the next concept. Again, I must emphasize that your statistics overall are saying some pretty alright things for you, so at this point I think what you really need is focus. Maybe focusing entirely on Support since that seems to be your best role at that moment, and it's the least mechanically intensive (short of you throwing your Q every time its off cooldown) so you can focus on your macro skills. And don't beat yourself up too much. Celebrate victories and analyze losses (with a cool head), that's how you get better.
: Is Irelia kit overloaded?
[Funny enough, Riot has a post explicitly detailing why they design Melee Fighters to be overloaded](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2016/12/dev-on-evolving-the-laning-fighter/). The example case being Camille, but Irelia falls into an extremely similar design case so most of what's said here can also apply. The tl;dr is that intentionally overdesigned and overloaded fighters are way easier to balance than simple binary champions who win games or feed hard on a single number change. I really suggest you actually read the article however.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pTHmbZkO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-08T22:56:02.926+0000) > > For those not aware, the buff is a slight cooldown reduction of Three Talon Strike from 9/8/7/6/5 to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5. > > I would like to point out this is largely a midgame buff only. > > Xin Zhao clears just fine, often only needing one usage of his Q per camp if that, and the cooldown doesn't typically carry over onto other camps. Furthermore, this change does virtually nothing for early game ganks. I suppose this may help out in 1v1 fights in the early game, but you shouldn't be 1v1 fighting Xin Zhao in the first place so no effective change there. > > On the other hand, as a buff only to his early rank cooldowns, it would effectively have no difference by late game. > > The real change I think this may cause is that it would give more credence to E Max second Xin Zhaos, since there's even less marginal gain per ranking his Q. > > To respond to the OP with this in mind, I genuinely don't think the problem is buffing an already strong champion necessarily. The real problem as I see it is that it may emphasize a strength of Xin Zhao that people already hate, that being that if you get caught by a Xin Zhao (especially an E max second Xin Zhao), you're already caught and you're probably already dead. How can you sit here and lie to us? We can see the numbers and clearly the cooldown is being reduced at ALL levels so it's not just a midgame buff only.
Okay little touchy there. I would like to clarify exactly what you seem to be accusing me of. Typically when describing individual abilities, you call out their Ranks, in which the buff has no effect on Xin Zhao's rank 5 Q and a whopping .5 second cooldown difference on his rank 4 Q. If this is what you are accusing me of lying about, well, I am the one who provided the numbers and I use the post to explain why the early rank buffs are negligible early game. With the buff also being factually nonexistent late, this is why I described it as a midgame buff. If you really did mean levels, would you happen to already be an E Max second Xin Zhao player? In that case, yes you are correct, this is technically a straight buff at all levels 2-17. This is in fact what I expressed concern of in my original post. Do keep in mind however that a large number of Xin Zhao players are Q max second players, with [lolalytics at the time of writing putting them at ~18%](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/XinZhao/Jungle/), about 1/5th of the player pool. And in that case, this is only a buff from levels 2-12. And I must reiterate from my earlier post that in the early game, the situations where a 2 second difference in a Rank 1 Q being significant are either few and far between or ultimately unimportant in the overall scheme of things. The 2-12 window mentioned above being even smaller when looked at from that sense. With that said, unless you're super adamant that E Max second Xins are the only ones who matter and that 2 second difference truly does have significant impacts on his early game and late, I really don't know where you are coming from.
No Ganks (EUW)
: Why are you trying to make Yi a much more unhealthy champion overall
That Q change is only relevant if you're running around all by yourself. No minions, no Jungle monsters, just you and Yi in the middle of nowhere. At that point if you're caught by a Yi in that position, you probably deserve to die anyway.
Haze97 (EUW)
: Why the fuck is Xin Zhao getting a buff?
For those not aware, the buff is a slight cooldown reduction of Three Talon Strike from 9/8/7/6/5 to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5. I would like to point out this is largely a midgame buff only. Xin Zhao clears just fine, often only needing one usage of his Q per camp if that, and the cooldown doesn't typically carry over onto other camps. Furthermore, this change does virtually nothing for early game ganks. I suppose this may help out in 1v1 fights in the early game, but you shouldn't be 1v1 fighting Xin Zhao in the first place so no effective change there. On the other hand, as a buff only to his early rank cooldowns, it would effectively have no difference by late game. The real change I think this may cause is that it would give more credence to E Max second Xin Zhaos, since there's even less marginal gain per ranking his Q. To respond to the OP with this in mind, I genuinely don't think the problem is buffing an already strong champion necessarily. The real problem as I see it is that it may emphasize a strength of Xin Zhao that people already hate, that being that if you get caught by a Xin Zhao (especially an E max second Xin Zhao), you're already caught and you're probably already dead.
: Idk about slave labor with demacia's Lore. If it was noxus yeah
From what I've heard of Demacia's social hierarchy vs Noxus', I would not be surprised by effective caste systems in the former, where as the latter is far more individualized.
Galiö (NA)
: Things that dont make much sense about Galio
> How did Durand build him so fast. There are a lot of ancient structures in the real world that seem impossible to have been built without modern machinery or architecture or whatever. Truth is, humans are _really_ good at building stuff with slave labor. Like, seemingly impossibly good. I dunno about the lore enough to know any slavery situation in the world, but when it comes to seemingly impossible works of construction, architecture, or art, the real life assumption is usually thousands of slaves.
Rioter Comments
kile147 (NA)
: That's fair I guess. I've heard talk of a "Drill Sergent" support for awhile, and that would be a much bigger thematic break from what they have done in the past.
: Ranked is just ruined this season, i really dislike it.
Okay, to be fair it's almost always been the case that matchups are determined by MMR, not rank, since forever. You can still say what you want to say but it's not a particular element of Ranked _this season_.
: Except...... Zed generally is roaming enough to regain his energy, and his Energy gain condition is one of the easiest to fulfill......
I think you completely misunderstood. Energy is strongest if we're talking in the moment to moment, do a quick trade and back off until the next playstyle. What Zedastian is pointing out, and what most people should learn is Energy's major weakness in all in fights. You're often locked to very specific combos to get your recharge and to maximize your ability usage. Furthermore, upon completing these comboes, you're often locked out of the fight for at least a few moments for your energy to recharge. There is no way around this. Yes Zed is annoying at level 6 because all of his play potential is right there, but his play potential largely remains static all throughout the game as there's no way around Energy's low cap. Mana has the opposite strengths and problems. Since mana doesn't recharge as quickly over time, many mages will quickly burn through their pool slinging spells every trade. However, the vast majority of (let's say in this case) Mages have way more flexibility to simply spellsling throughout the fight, or have access to wider comboes since they don't need to regain mana through a particular combo. Furthermore, the vast majority of mana users don't even notice their mana costs by the late game. They've often built out of or even naturally scaled out of a realistic amount of mana that they'd use while out in the field. You're right in that an energy based Zed can simply back off or use the right combo to regain his energy, sure. That's not the point though. If he was instead given a mana pool, his play potential by the later stages of the game would only get even more ridiculous as he's basically not even going to think about landing the right combo to recharge halfway through the fight, and he's not effectively locked out of the fight for whatever amount of time once his combo is over. Energy and mana have completely different, and if anything basically opposite strengths and weaknesses. To reply to the OP of this thread, switching Zed to mana would only introduce different problems while getting rid of a lot of the gating that he currently has now.
FSRER (EUNE)
: The problem is that jax was never a bruiser until now. He always was the best duelist (with riven coming second back in the days) in the game. Riot forced him to change from {{item:3153}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3124}} {{item:3074}} to now {{item:3078}} {{item:3161}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3053}} and making him this abomination which got nerfed to the ground because of the meta and not because of the champion having problems (jax was fine as a duelist always compared to other duelists).
Old Jax build was BotRK->TriForce->Tank. Which was the standard route for BotRK Triforce Bruisers Guinsoos is its own problem and I don't recall what season Ravenous Hydra was ever a true core item to Jax.
: Shes a lane bully for being able to harass from a LONG range, while sustaining very well. She would only out damage either of them IF the VERY mobile {{champion:39}} or{{champion:164}} stood still lol
I can kinda see Irelia but Camille doesn't exactly have the tools to consistently dodge Illaoi's harass. Her E is quite slow if she's not standing right up against a wall, and its cooldown is much higher than Illaoi's Q+E.
: That's cause they dont have to build tanky to survive since they are so mobile, but then when u get hypermobile champions building beefy then they really become absurd. {{champion:39}} {{champion:24}} {{item:3748}} {{item:3053}}
Since when did Irelia or Jax go glass cannon? They've always been Bruisers and they always build somewhere in the spectrum of Bruisers. To say they don't need the defense since they're so mobile is just...not reflective of the actual game. And the point is yes, more mobile Bruisers can get pretty beefy with the right itemization; they're just still not going to be anywhere near as difficult to kill as a true Juggernaut.
Critty92 (EUNE)
: How to counter Hecarim?
Okay so: In the off chance that you ever see a Predator Hecarim, [refer to this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ35NP2nYZs). Especially if you're on Blue Side, shove with your ADC early, try to bounce the minion wave by the second or third wave, try to set up a freeze, and turtle hard. If you're on Red Side, you have a lot more freedom to play as aggressively as you'd like depending on how the Junglers play off each other. Especially if you're on Blue Side, get a Ward on the enemy's Blue Buff or the ramp to the river or at least a deep ward in the river by the third wave. As for Conqueror Hecarim, there are 3 key Jungle Routes that you should be aware of. 1: Red->Kruggs->Raptors/Crab/Gank 2: Red->Opposite Crab->Blue/Gank 3: If [the Hecarim] is on Red Side, Blue->Gromp->Crab->Gank (usually Mid). Since in Solo Q 90% of Junglers always start bottom buff, the first two routes are relevant when you are on Red and the Hecarim is on Blue, and the 3rd route pretty much only happens if Hecarim is on Red (Very little reason for a Blue Side Hecarim to use the Blue Buff start). So, let's say Hecarim is on Blue Side and you're on Red Side. The standard route for a Hecarim is route 1, and the counter to that is relatively simple. Ward the Tribush as late as possible, let's say the 1:10 mark before leashing. If you see Hecarim pass by there lv2, back off for about a minute. By then, he'd have killed the Scuttle Crab and is rotating Mid or Raptors, far away from you. Proceed to play aggressive for the next 3 minutes. The second route is an alternative to counter strong Red Side Junglers with a Blue Buff start. Technically speaking, if Hecarim takes this route, you're completely safe, at least until Hecarim does a full clear (idk Hecarim's clear speed or health btw). It does however put the rest of your team in danger early on. While you ward the tribush at 1:10, try recommending your teammates to ward the River ramps (both of them closest to Mid) or at least the Pixel Bushes (those small bushes in the middle of the River) at 1:20 or so. The topside ward is waaaaay more important so really try to get your Top or Mid to get that bush. The bot side ward next to Hecarim's raptor camp is much less important however, as he will either need to take a wildly inefficient route or cheese Mid to get anything out of that route. It's not the end of the world if no one else wards. However, it does open up breathing room for you if you happen to see Hecarim on the opposite side of the map. The third route is for when you are on Blue Side. The simplest measure around it is to simply not play stupid Lv1. No, really. This route works best cutting straight through Mid Lane to control both crabs, so as long as you and your ADC stay quiet for the first two waves, you'll have freedom to do whatever you want for the next few minutes. I do however recommend warding the Pixel bush or Hecarim's Blue Buff ramp at about 1:10 though. This will help you confirm if he's doing this route and if you and your ADC need to keep your heads down for the first few waves. There is one minor hiccup you'll want to keep an eye out for. If your Jungler goes straight from his buff to his respective Krugs or Gromp, you should hard shove Lv1. Most likely the route your Jungler will take is Crab 3rd cramp. This means one of 3 scenarios. Either Hecarim matches him for Crab 3rd and a fight will break out, Hecarim moves to the opposite side of the map, or Hecarim tries to cheese someone. The third is unreliable and a little dumb, and if you have the Tribush warded you should be safe from cheese should you pay attention. This means you either need to shove so you can roam and help your Jungler if there's a fight over crab, or Hecarim isn't even gonna be on your side of the map for the next few minutes and you have a free opportunity to play as aggressive as you'd like. Past that point, Hecarim is a Dive Fighter. Treat him the way you'd treat Vi or J4 (or treat him like an Assassin). Unless you can catch somebody out for an easy kill, save any significant CC ability you have until you know exactly where Hecarim is and make sure he's not useful. I know _some_ people on the Boards like to pretend that CC affects everyone equally, it really doesn't. Especially in the early to Midgame while Dive Fighters are still squishy, CC is both a death sentence and a quick path to irrelevancy for squishy Melees. Later on in the game as Hecarim switches from Sterak's Gage to straight up Tank items, Hecarim shouldn't be the massive pseudo-Assassin threat that he was earlier in the game bullying you as. Especially if you pay attention in the early game and step on his toes where you can, you can be one step ahead of him every moment he's dangerous until he eventually falls off. Note: These notes work with the vast majority of Junglers, so if you ever have any trouble with any Jungler in the future, pay attention to their paths. Also note: Scuttle Crab may be reworked in the near future. Jungle Routes will change if that's the case.
: > [{quoted}](name=MankeyMadness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ioxqjLp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-30T21:43:55.510+0000) > > That's a neat interaction to note ty > > Suppose that means it doesn't knock Kayn out of Shadow Step. Kayn shadow step is not a dash thought.
Not for gameplay purposes but iirc* when they coded it, they said Shadow Step is similar to a ton of micro dashes. *probably not remembering correctly
Áery (NA)
: Not even a single downvote lmao https://imgur.com/oIv4NGY
Ahh, you pointed it out. Someone downvoted.
: {{champion:45}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:75}}
Ehh, going off theoretical gold value, Nasus' passive isn't anywhere near 2900g in Lifesteal.
: {{champion:420}} totally has poor aoe spread. {{champion:21}} totally has poor aoe. {{champion:141}} totally crappy aoe. {{champion:555}} crappy aoe. {{champion:92}} crappy aoe. {{champion:58}} crappy aoe. {{champion:14}} crappy aoe. {{champion:15}} crappy aoe. {{champion:254}} crappy aoe. {{champion:62}} crappy aoe. Guess what? Almost all of these are meta.....
My statement was that AP Champs tend to have the best Range and AOE. With the exception of Sivir, or MF's Ult, none of these champions' AOE comes even close to comparing. That's not to say that they have crappy AOE, which is not what I said in the first place so don't put words in my mouth, but if we're doing a direct comparison with the likes of Ziggs or Xerath or Karthus, in no world are virtually any of the champions you've mentioned (sans MF and Sivir) gonna compare in AOE and range. Now, honestly answer me this. Where did I say that AD champs have poor AOE or did you misread and immediately kneejerk post?
: We need another mage GW item besides Morellonomicon, one that doesn't require you to finish an entire 3000 gold item before being able to counter a healing champion. Tanks have Bramble Vest, (1000g) which builds into Thornmail (2900g) ADC/AA'ers have Executioner's calling, (800g) which builds into Mortal Reminder (2800) and Mages have Morellonomicon, (3000g) which builds into nothing. We mage players don't have an initial GW item unlike every other class. Pretty obvious which champions riot likes. ({{sticker:zombie-nunu-tears}}
The problem with that is that Mages often have the best range and the most AOE. An easy to apply Grievous Wounds by way of Morellonomicon activating on Spell Hit but for 1000g would kinda be entirely silly. If a 1000g variant exists, it would probably need a specific limitation to counter most Mages' range and AOE. In other words, don't expect an Executioner's Calling, expect the sub 40% health requirement Morellonomicon used to have.
: they are BARELY giving up damage for MASSIVE SURVIVABILITY. Rod of Ages and Archangels Staff are not tank are you joking? Scaling yes, tank no. RoA still gives 100 AP and just health? The other gives mana and AP....and I haven't seen a Lissandra build either of those items in a very long time. Since like Season 7.
Notice the word "or". According to lolalytics, Ryze is 37th place out of 59 Mid Laners in terms of total damage. Lissandra is 44th place. They're not outputting the damage you seem to be hyperbole-ing for.
: But they shouldn't be abusing a tank rune for that. What makes them bulky are their individual kits. One gets shields and MS already for properly comboing his abilities and the other has an Ult that makes her invulnerable and heal herself.
> What makes them bulky are their individual kits. And you know, their bulkier than normal itemizations. Ryze even sometimes building straight Tank items. The two of them aren't artillery Mages. Ryze is a battle mage and Liss is weird. Them using a Tank rune when they're abnormally Tanky and sometimes even build Tank items shouldn't be such a controversy.
: they shouldn't get the full benefit of using what is supposed to be a tank Keystone without building TANK. Currently they're getting 70-120 armor/magic resist while also building full damage. that's bullshit. what they gain in survivability by taking Aftershock completely makes up for what damage they are missing by not taking Electricute or Phase Rush and then some.
Except they're not building full damage. Ryze and Lissandra tend to opt for the bulkier and lower damage (or at least slow scaling {{item:3027}} {{item:3003}} ) AP items. Ryze in particular has always had a history of sometimes opting into straight Tank items, and I imagine Liss would be the same if I knew more about her. And your last sentence sets up a pretty good premise for why they should be allowed to use the rune. They're giving up damage for survivability, isn't that good tactical decision making that we should be celebrating?
: I actually miss Courage a lot but at the same time, I feel like they're worried about adding it again because they have Guardian but the problem with that logic is that no one takes Guardian. In theory, Guardian is a great idea for support tanks... but in practice, Aftershock is just so overwhelmingly *broken* that you can't make an argument for taking Guardian over it as *anyone.* And that's another thing. A lot of big abusers of it aren't even tanks that it should be. Quinn, Lissandra, Ryze, etc. People who aren't intended to be tanky are using it to be tanky. I wish they'd bring back Font of Life and Courage of the Colossus. Font of Life had niche uses for supports like Braum and pre-reworked Nunu and Colossus was really nice.
Lissandra and Ryze are actually supposed to be pretty bulky, at least for Mages.
Eedat (NA)
: The first statement is 100% correct. In fact, ***the entire and sole purpose of magic pen is to negate MR.*** That is literally its only purpose.
>the entire and sole purpose of **_%_** magic pen is to negate MR. [FLAT Penetration is COUNTERED by Resistances you nut.](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/tips-tricks/iq7pMApI-some-funny-things-i-noticed-about-armor-penetration)
Sirsir (NA)
: 'Inelegant'? What kinda bullshit excuse is that? Its 'inelegant' to use a ruler to make a straight line. Its 'inelegant' to use by breaks instead of tactical swerving. They're going to try to buff his jungle in a way that will break him top then nerf him to the ground again. Because the right way is 'inelegant'
I don't think you're doing it but if you are, please don't shoot the messenger.
Eedat (NA)
: * flat mpen negates half the MR from a MR item * MR negates flat mpen They are both correct. Really just depends on which agenda you want to push tbh
Except that the first point is just incorrect. MR is cheaper per resistance, Flat Pen suffers relative to high Resistance Values, and Riot renamed Flat Armor Pen into Lethality specifically to help avoid that misconception. There's no agenda on the table, it's just facts and basic math.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-21T00:12:56.468+0000) > > Minor nitpick. The math works out to make Flat Penetration negated by MR, not the other way around. Doesn’t matter, it’s effectively the same thing
: What role do you main, and why? (Poll)
Jungle/Top player here. Jungle to make me hate everyone. Top to make me hate myself. Why do I play these roles...
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TehNACHO

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