: seems the only bug is the packet lost that is associated with lag. which if it only happen to you would most likely be on your end not riots
Yeah ...which is why I posted it on the Boards to see if someone could replicate it.
Rioter Comments
: They are traps and you yourself agree in action because the only time you use the alternate clear route is on nunu, on every other champion you jungle you default to the traditional clear route and even in your nunu games the unique start costs you quite a bit in terms of camps and dragons, the only thing it does well is lets you rapidly gank pushed up champions in succession but outside of that use scenario the losses far outweigh the gains. I watched a few of your replays out of curiosity just to see if junglers are missing out on a godly clear path and only your using it but... nope you lost far more then you gained in my opinion and thats vs matchups you should have crushed such as nunu vs gragas.
And Sejuani, Rammus, and Skarner for that matter ^ ^ If you're gonna go out of your way to check my replays, I highly suggest that you go a little deeper than cherry picking if you want to convince someone anything.
: All i am saying is don't expect the return of different jungle routes until the exp bonus on scuttle is shifted back to camps because so long as scuttle is that valuable there will only be a singler clear route for every jungler to do to be safely successful in most game. Your routes are niche and in certain champions in certain situations are useful but in most cases are straight up a trap.
I'm not sure what you mean by the return of different Jungle Routes. The Jungle has only gained Jungle Routes over the course of history, as the Lv2 Meta brought out the Lv2 and Krugs Route, the Predator Rune brought the Predator Route, and the change from a 3 camp clear to a 4 camp clear without Krugs put so much more prominence on the Red Side of the Jungle. I'm also actually interested by what you meant when you mentioned Kayn. Can you tell me exactly what is Kayn's most effective single clear route? Because I can assure you, it's not the 4 camp clear, and many Kayn mains will cringe if you say the 6 camp clear. And you've yet to explain why these routes are a trap. If you can better explain why these routes are a trap, that would be great. Instead of, you know, telling me that you're likely to get Counter Jungled doing Krugs when the whole point of that route is to react to Counter Jungling.
: Sure, vs many junglers that are common such as {{champion:59}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:141}} and even nunu starting krugs guarantees that you suffer a massive EXP and gold loss when they push to invade check and find your camps untouched because of how delayed you were at krugs, in fact the only champion i know of that can successfully pull off a red buff into krugs start without being punished hard is eve and thats only due to how much clearing speed she has with Q and E though with the CD nerf on Q i doubt she can do it anymore.
It sounds like what you're describing is the prelude to Vertical Jungling between a Lv2 Jungler (Jarvan) or strong counter Jungler (Lee Sin, Nunu) vs a more standardized Lv3 Jungler. Yes, it is true that if you use the Krugs route against these types of matchups, there is a high probability that your Blue Buff will get invaded and stolen. In fact, this was common practice in the pre 9.14; the Lv2 Jungle metagame caused Vertical Jungling to be the mainstream strategy as a direct result of almost all Lv2 Junglers starting at Red and immediately moving out, often towards the enemy's Blue. The whole point was to maintain vision of the enemy's Red Side Jungle and/or your own Blue Side Jungle. Back then, this means warding the Pixel Bush (or mouth of the Dragon Pit) to see if the enemy will do Scuttle Crab right away, and if they move into your Jungle or gank immediately nowadays. In doing Krugs, you can immediately then invade the enemy's Blue as they invade yours, and because you did Red and Krugs yourself, their Blue will give you Level 3. You can then steal their Gromp and Raptors as they steal yours, and the map is split vertically for the first 5 minutes of the game, when the Jungle resets. You are completely correct that if you do the Krugs route, your Blue is likely to be stolen. That _was_ the point of the route originally, to see if your Blue gets stolen and to give you ample opportunity to react to it often by stealing the enemy's Blue and initiating Vertical Jungling. EDIT: Actually when you think about it, the standard 4 camp and 6 camp clears seems to be the weakest against Lv2 invaders, since they'll have Red to your Blue or they can steal your Blue before you even get on that side of the Jungle, on top of it being harder to Counter Jungle back.
GilxeN (EUW)
: I am ok with this info, it's not new for me, but main factor why I am screwed because laner's aint buying Pinkward, "BUT MEH NEED ITEMS", WARD YOUR SELF, sure my wards are limited and has cooldowns, but still 2 invades and my jungles are done.
Fuck you Jungler also gank for me Shaco's hit me like a bajillion times gg jg diff.
Jesi Oni (EUNE)
: Thats why noone wants to play jungle~ (Have to fill more often than support) I have two routes... Blue or Red. Dont care about the rest 🤣
So much homework just to get into the damn role. Why does anyone even play it, I wonder.
: I do the same route on every jungler, because red side>>>>>>>>> Blue side. Redbuff start >>Krugs>> Raptors>> look for midlane gank>>>> skuttlecrab That level 3 off 3 camps is far too valuable, plus it gets my krugs and raptors respawning sooner which is super high value.
Yeah, Krugs route is really strong nowadays. It's a shame not every Jungler is capable of using it at its maximum capacity.
: My guess is since last jungle destruction I mean changes 95% of junglers start on red side due to how little experience you get from blue side. Who would have thought such a change would be good for game and open up multiple jungle paths?
It is pretty interesting that as the Jungle has gotten more and more restrictive, new Jungle paths seem to pop up. Technically speaking though, those paths had always existed, they were just brought into prominence due to: 4 camp Lv3 clears if you don't do Krugs Predator Junglers Lv2 Meta (and countering it) And who knows what will happen when Season 10 rolls around.
: Most of those jungle routes are not valid vs the common core junglers and attempting them will only result in bad things happening to you, so its not that most junglers don't know those routes exist they just know that the main route works in 90% of the games you play and spending time guessing if this is one of the 10% of times you need to use a different route let alone memorize the proper pacing for it is a waste of time in league of scuttle.
Would you mind being just a tad more specific.
Antenora (EUW)
: With the state of the jungle right now you ALWAYS want to start on your red side regardless of champion. Red side is more valuable in xp.
Εlin (EUW)
: Please explain why jungler is not a popular role.
1. It's the hardest role to get into 2. Everybody hates Junglers. Especially if they're on the same team. No one is ever happy with what you do. 3. The Jungle resets semi-annually, so you need to completely relearn it again, on top of the learning difficulty 4. Most Junglers function like glorified Supports, and the few true carries screw up team comps 5. Related to the last point, you're rather consistently weaker than your solo laners for most of the game, and almost all bot lane combinations scale into the late game better than almost all Junglers 6. Laners like to say that Jungle is OP because they influence lanes so much, but for all but the most extreme Gankers, all Junglers can do is just tip the scales a little. If your laners are already losing, you can't do much. 7. When a Jungler loses, they lose hardcore. Can't gank because behind, liable to being counter Jungled, the vast majority of laners will refuse to help you and will blame you for losing, and you're not likely to scale into anything useful. 8. Even when you're winning, you're still liable to taking all the blame if anything goes wrong as the Jungler. Or if somebody just doesn't like you. See point 2.
: God I wish I had people like you on my team every game. When I play jungle I can generally get a lead and keep a hard lockdown on objectives but I’m still just one guy and can only do so much. If people just took the time to learn and understand the game like you do then this game would be that much more enjoyable.
Not sure how this'll work if we're both Junglers, but glad you appreciate the post!
Barkley (NA)
: Wait.... Hold up, is this legitimate, actual, friendly advice? What kind of tomfoolery are you trying to pull here, friend? I'm VERY uncomfortable with this. _We don't do that here._
Obviously I want to lull everybody into a false sense of security before I start dropping bombs on all of you fools.
Rioter Comments
: Countering Hecarim
Okay here we go. Hecarim is an early game champion in the same vein as Lee Sin or Pantheon. He's strong as he's building up to Trinity Force, is a monster until about the 20 minute mark, then falls way the fuck off as his itemization and scaling doesn't scale well into the mid to late game. He seems powerful at every stage of the game because he's probably got a good lead, so you gotta shut him down there. Hecarim's favorite route is the Predator/Krugs route, characterized by starting Red, clearing both Raptors and Krugs (the order of which naming the route, and who he wants to gank) before either going straight into a gank or recalling to pick up Blue Buff. For this reason, it's imperative to place down a ward on his Raptors to see what his game plan is. At the same time, ask one of your teammates to get a ward on his Blue, or keep a close eye as to who on the enemy team leashes for Hecarim. Anyway assuming he starts Red, you can use the Raptor ward to tell who he's gonna gank first. If he shows up on Raptors right away, the Side Lane is in danger. If there's a long delay before he shows up on Raptors, Mid is in the most danger. Warn your teammates based on who you think he's gonna gank. If for whatever reason Hecarim starts at Blue, he'll be doing a standard Blue/Wolves/Raptors/Red clear, giving your teammates more time and still making it really obvious what side of the map Hecarim will be on once he hits his Lv3. Going by your name, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you're a Shaco player. As a Level 2 Jungler who can jump the Dragon/Baron pit, you can easily steal his Blue since Hecarim takes forever to get to it anyway. If you see an opportunity to cheese a gank, beware that Hecarim may just go ahead and steal your Blue now that you've revealed yourself, so plan around that (and steal his Blue as well anyway). At this point, the two of you are going to initiate vertical Jungling. For the first 5 minutes of the game, you have complete control of one side of the map while Hecarim has the other. I am going to be frank here, I think Hecarim has the edge over Shaco in a purely symmetrical vertical Jungling scenario, as I see his ganks as far more reliable than yours. Either way, use vertical Jungling to its greatest strengths and abuse free ganks on the side lane if they appear to be profitable while keeping a close eye on Mid and if Hecarim shows up. If you want to step on Hecarim's toes, it's going to be there. Jungle Monsters respawn just before the 5 minute mark. Because of Hecarim's first clear, it tends to make his angles of attack come from his Red Buff part of the Jungle, where his Raptors and Krugs respawned. This makes it a little easier to predict what Hecarim wants to do, or at the very least where you should ward to keep an eye on him. The next set should show up around the 7:30 mark, though as the game progresses this rule of thumb gets blurrier and blurrier so keep it in mind but don't overly rely on it. Shaco is a particularly bad matchup into Hecarim since Hecarim does the early game snowball thing far more reliably and he will build tanky as the game progresses, leaving one less easy target for Shaco. However, once you understand Hecarim's angles of attack and how his early route leaves his Blue Buff side of the Jungle free to just take, you can start to brick his early game. After that, it's only a matter of time and hoping you don't have that one laner that wants to feed the pony.
Rioter Comments
: Let's play a game called "Guess which team won"
: Xerath too strong?
You can make any champion sound OP when you spend 4 paragraphs talking exclusively about his strengths. I mean nevermind that his statistics are lukewarm. Nevermind that he crumples to Assassins. Nevermind that he falls off past the mid game. Never mind that he's completely immobile and can only hard stop one person at a time. Xerath is not too strong. He's squarely in the middle of the pack in Mid Lane rocking a solid 50% winrate with plenty of weaknesses that I'm sure you'll ignore or argue about.
Rioter Comments
Hi im 12 (EUNE)
: looking at your match history its not that you're really good at nunu, its just that its an actual viable pick compared to shit like wukong jungle and hail of blades voli lmao
Pretty sure my winrate's higher on Wukong. And for that I'd point out he's so niche I only ever get to play him in hyper specific matchups. But I mean no that's exactly the thing. Nunu provides a good base for my champion pool. Nunu's not just viable, as a Magic Damage Level 3 Tank Jungler, he fits in virtually every team comp. I need to actively find opportunities not to play him if I want to play anybody else and as a side effect he's just grown...boring. There's no interesting decision making with Nunu. Also please ignore those Voli games. I swear I was aiming for Predator but my brain derps out whenever I look at the Domination page.
Rioter Comments
: Suggestions: Quality of life changes for Ziggs
These are not Quality of Life Changes, just buffs.
Gabriyel (NA)
: Is it just me, or does velkoz have too much mana efficiency pre-6?
I'm not exactly sure what you want to define as "too much" mana efficiency, but I would like to point out that the three champions you specifically noted are heavily balanced based on their wave clear, whereas Vel'Koz's laning presence comes primarily from his poke. If Vel'Koz had the same "mana efficiency" as Anivia, Aurelion, and Talon, not only would he have to deal with the fact he's going to get outpushed by these matchups in the lane where priority is arguably the most important, but he also has to deal with the fact that his primary forms of poke are, as you pointed out, rather dodgable. This is opposed to the fact that wave clear is incredibly reliable since minions don't intentionally dodge skill shots. In other words, for any individual uses of their abilities, Vel'Koz's Q+W Waveclear is lackluster compared to Anivia's Q+R (granted, pre 6 discussion but still a factor), Aurelion's P+Q, and Talon's W+Tiamat. Vel'Koz _must_ then approach the lane with his element of Poke, which I think we can all agree is at the very least much less reliable than Waveclear in and of itself. Again, I have no stance on what you consider as "too much" mana efficiency, but is it possible that for Vel'Koz's lackluster wave clear and less reliable poke he should have more mana efficiency to balance everything out?
: That's mostly cause riot considers other forms of utillity as 'hidden power' and keeps them out of the game. Buffs, auras, **DEBUFFS** would all be ways contribute to a fight with neither raw damage nor raw CC and thus would suit a tank. AS slows for example used to be a thing, now Malphs E is the only one remaining. Sonas W-Passive proc is the only damage debuff on a champ. Nearsight/blind effects also have some more room in the game. Brittle is a somewhat interesting mechanic that so far only Orn uses. I also really wouldn't say that bruisers and mages have much more diversity.
To be completely fair, auras are legitimately hard to balance on top of being largely invisible if done wrong (old Sona, many old aura items), Trundle type debuffs are extra invisible and while not as hard to balance are far more awkward, and strict Buff type abilities are extremely prone to being abused by Funnel Comps. It's not that Riot won't explore these spaces (see Yuumi), it's just that these mechanics have a history of balancing vs gameplay problems, very long and very troubled histories no less.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P731uotQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-05T06:22:12.992+0000) > > Ahh, just gonna hop on that last comment. > > Pixel brush is nice against Aggro Junglers but the REALLY great wards are a deep ward on the enemy Raptor or Blue around the 1:00 mark. Just one of the two will give you a pretty good idea of what the enemy Jungler is gonna do. Having both tells you exactly what kind of Route the enemy Jungler is taking, and their entire early game plan. They're a little risky, so it's best either to a) ward the topside of the map (enemy Raptor if Blue Team, enemy Blue if Red team), b) go ward as a 2-3 man squad, and c) avoid the hell out of level 1 monsters like Braum or Aatrox. However, as I said, even one is a lot and two would be perfect. Those deep wards you are talking about are pointless and risky. If you watch the map and know your champs,, you doubt need to see the jg start to know where he is. Also, if you even get seen dropping that ward, the enemies are more likely to ward jg at start, making it very risky to go vertical even if enemy jg is elsewhere. You cut off half the available map dropping that ward! You should know that if you playe jungle and know invading...
Those deep wards I'm talking about give actual information for their risk, whereas the Pixel Bush wards give no information for no risk. Check out my second response to Another Feeder where I play out the scenarios for him. The _only_ scenario where what you're saying is relevant is when both of us are starting Red. Except. I'm going to notice when people respond with their own wards to my deep ward on the enemy Blue. I play Lv3 AOE Junglers for the most part, meaning I could just pivot into a Red->Raptors->Krugs->Lv3 Gank on the side lane since I know that ward is typically down, or Red-Krugs->Raptors into Mid Lane if the Mid Laner was the one who warded. Off of that Gank, I've often created my own lane priority, allowing me to much more safely continue into Vertical Jungling even if the enemy Jungle is warded. Not to mention this all gets accelerated in the few games where I decide to play a true Lv2 Jungler like Xin Zhao or Udyr, in which case, yeah go ahead and ward the enemy Jungle. Easier ganks for me and my champion is better at fighting to the death that early than anyone else even if I am caught.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P731uotQ,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-05T09:20:16.269+0000) > > Dude that hasn't been relevant since the Scuttle spawn's been delayed. > > If this was pre-9.9 the pixel bush is godsend to detect early Scuttles and react around that. Nowadays the Jungle is heavily tilted towards Lv3 Junglers, meaning the pixel bush especially placed at 1:15 is completely useless since the vast majority of Junglers aren't even going to enter the river that early (or at least that part of the river. Faster Junglers are able to hit a sidelane _just_ before the Scuttle spawn). > > Post 9.9, the most valuable information is knowing which variant of the Lv3 route the enemy Jungler is taking: > Blue/Wolves/Raptors/Red (and backwards) > Blue/Gromp/Wolves/Red (and backwards) > Red/Raptors/Krugs > Raptors (leashless)/Red/Krugs > Red/Krugs/Raptors/Gank Mid > > Literally in only one of these 5 routes is the pixel bush relevant. The first two and the pixel bush could despawn just as the Junglers finish up their second buff and enter the middle of the River, the third and fourth sets up a sidelane gank, the fourth is a common leashless route meaning it's harder to tell which direction the enemy is going, and the fifth is the most uncommon and hardest to pull off well since the Scuttle spawn delay. The Raptor ward gives you information on all 5 of these routes, and the Blue ward could at least guarantee what side of the map the Jungler started on. > > You're working with old info. It was good info, hell amazing game changing info just a month ago, but 9.9 changed the Jungle metagame hard and the pixel bush isn't important anymore. K, so when I start my red, into your blue. And u don't even get to know I've done it until im already gone and your pathing into cleared camps. You can sit around wondering why the fuck you were worrying about what time the scuttle crab spawned. The pixel bush is for ALL counter jungling, it didnt become a useful ward for helping your jungler know if they're being countered or not because of the crab change.
Look let me play you a few scenarios for you. I always ward the same side I start, so Raptors into my Blue or Blue into my Red. Now let's say I start Red, you start Blue I see you matching my pathing. Nothing crazy happens and I can decide to run out onto the River based on which one of us has the stronger Lv3. Priority is on my side. Let's say I start Blue and you start Red. Because of Cowsep, I always kill my Blast Cone before starting Blue. You have three options of avoiding my Raptor Ward into a viable option based on your Jungler. You can run through the Tribush into a gank on the nearest Sidelane, you can run around your Red into a Gank mid, or you can run around to my Blast Cone and try to kill me at Wolves. I knocked out one of those options, and the other two are only viable if you are playing a high kill pressure Lv2 like Xin Zhao or Jarvan, at which point I am usually asking my Side Laner to ward the Tribush and my Mid Laner to hover on my Red/your Blue side of the map for the first 2.5 minutes of the game. Granted, my laners could be dummies and you get the gank off, but this is not the counter jungling scenario you describe and that pixel bush ward wouldn't save my apparently dummy laners in the first place. Priority is more or less on my side in this scenario, given my teammates aren't monkeys. Let's say both of us are starting Red. I see you're not doing your Blue Buff. We initiate Vertical Jungling, apparently. Neutral priority. Let's say both of us are starting Blue. I don't know which direction you're gonna go after starting Blue and you may just decide to run straight to my Red and swipe it before I get there. Alright fine, you got me. Of the four possible scenarios based on which buff we started, in the most uncommon of the four, you can swipe my Red without me even knowing. Now granted, almost nobody starts Blue Side Blue Buff, let alone with an express goal of Counter Jungling, but let's ignore that. Let's also ignore that if I followed your advice, my Pixel Bush, guarding my own Blue, doesn't tell me when you'd invade. But then you say I'm supposed to ward my opposite Pixel. Fair enough, I do that and you walk around the Tribush, or more realistically you're playing a champion who can hop over the Dragon wall. Still a useless ward so far. But you know what, you got me. You started at your Blue and successfully Counter Jungled me in the most unlikely scenario where the pixel bush ward you proposed would still be useless. Two claps for you.
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P731uotQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-05T06:22:12.992+0000) > > Ahh, just gonna hop on that last comment. > > Pixel brush is nice against Aggro Junglers but the REALLY great wards are a deep ward on the enemy Raptor or Blue around the 1:00 mark. Just one of the two will give you a pretty good idea of what the enemy Jungler is gonna do. Having both tells you exactly what kind of Route the enemy Jungler is taking, and their entire early game plan. They're a little risky, so it's best either to a) ward the topside of the map (enemy Raptor if Blue Team, enemy Blue if Red team), b) go ward as a 2-3 man squad, and c) avoid the hell out of level 1 monsters like Braum or Aatrox. However, as I said, even one is a lot and two would be perfect. Wut? No... just ward the pixel brush, it'll tell u the same information without requiring an invade or all the risks involved with those deep wards. If the JG started on a side, (you can tell based on which side leashed) and did not cross the pixel ward, then u know they went to their opposite side jg. If they went towards your jg, you know they are verticle jungling and you need to invade their side.
Dude that hasn't been relevant since the Scuttle spawn's been delayed. If this was pre-9.9 the pixel bush is godsend to detect early Scuttles and react around that. Nowadays the Jungle is heavily tilted towards Lv3 Junglers, meaning the pixel bush especially placed at 1:15 is completely useless since the vast majority of Junglers aren't even going to enter the river that early (or at least that part of the river. Faster Junglers are able to hit a sidelane _just_ before the Scuttle spawn). Post 9.9, the most valuable information is knowing which variant of the Lv3 route the enemy Jungler is taking: Blue/Wolves/Raptors/Red (and backwards) Blue/Gromp/Wolves/Red (and backwards) Red/Raptors/Krugs Raptors (leashless)/Red/Krugs Red/Krugs/Raptors/Gank Mid Literally in only one of these 5 routes is the pixel bush relevant. The first two and the pixel bush could despawn just as the Junglers finish up their second buff and enter the middle of the River, the third and fourth sets up a sidelane gank, the fourth is a common leashless route meaning it's harder to tell which direction the enemy is going, and the fifth is the most uncommon and hardest to pull off well since the Scuttle spawn delay. The Raptor ward gives you information on all 5 of these routes, and the Blue ward could at least guarantee what side of the map the Jungler started on. You're working with old info. It was good info, hell amazing game changing info just a month ago, but 9.9 changed the Jungle metagame hard and the pixel bush isn't important anymore.
: Nice tips. I'd like to add some matchup info as well. If your jungler is a carry, they are going to path to get themselves ahead. If they're a tanky initiator, they're more likely to path to get their win condition lanes ahead. Some junglers are going to probably PvE till 6, like eve. It's not a good idea to force fights, even when they're in the area, if you have one of these junglers. Their success is mostly dictated by how quickly they are able to hit 6. Warding pixel brush at around 1:15 helps the jg out alot.
Ahh, just gonna hop on that last comment. Pixel brush is nice against Aggro Junglers but the REALLY great wards are a deep ward on the enemy Raptor or Blue around the 1:00 mark. Just one of the two will give you a pretty good idea of what the enemy Jungler is gonna do. Having both tells you exactly what kind of Route the enemy Jungler is taking, and their entire early game plan. They're a little risky, so it's best either to a) ward the topside of the map (enemy Raptor if Blue Team, enemy Blue if Red team), b) go ward as a 2-3 man squad, and c) avoid the hell out of level 1 monsters like Braum or Aatrox. However, as I said, even one is a lot and two would be perfect.
: U.gg is the one that I use now
u.gg suffers from tiny sample sizes depending on which filters you use, so I'd be careful with that too.
: Can you guys send me a jungle guide? I've seen many but none of them specify for new jungler, I have many parts that I don't understand like **What to do after ganking**,**Ganking or Objectives**, etc...
I like to use skill-capped. - [Here's an early game Routing Guide](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsbdrED2fTo&t=425s) - [Here's a NSFW camping Guide (ignore the first half of this guide, it was made based on pre 9.9 Scuttle, nowadays you usually start opposite of a snowball lane unless you are specifically playing a Lv2 Jungler like Xin Zhao or Jarvan). The second half of the guide gives good pointers as for what to do after a gank and how to abuse the shit out of a lane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCUaMUVVJb4) In general though, after the gank you want to do two things, check your and your laner's HP bars and look at the state of the lane. If either of you are below 50% HP, especially against anyone who can roam over and has high kill pressure, just back. You got a gank off, probably a kill, good job. If you or both of you are high enough HP though, you need to decide if you want to push the lane or freeze the lane. [Here is a guide on freezing lane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjD2rGFua8s), and if a freeze is not optimal for the situation, you should shove it up to tower. If you have a GIGANTIC minion wave, or if your laner starts hitting them, kill the next wave that comes to you under tower. Otherwise, just ignore them while you whack the tower. This will cause the lane to bounce back towards your laner, setting up you and your laner for more power plays (see the NSFW camping guide). Killing the next minion wave under the enemy tower's will cause a complete reset, which is good for very specific matchups {{champion:62}} {{champion:80}} but it's really not optimal so avoid if you can. What you do after all that is champion and route specific though. Instead of Ganking **or** Objectives, you should really think Ganking _and_ Objectives. With that said however, let's say you see a laner or the Jungler roam over and gank the opposite side of the map, do you gank, do you solo the Dragon/Herald, or do you hold/shove the nearest lane? Once again, this is champion specific, but these are the options you should be weighing in your mind. After all that, you transition into the midgame like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQvoWcH37O4 And, well, that's your Jungling Guide.
: Jungle help
So first of all, don't tryhard ganks with Yi. Your priority is powerfarming first and foremost. You have two gank windows right at the beginning and end of your clears, poke your head out shortly and just back if you don't see them. Kindred brings a lot of damage to a gank, but other than Red Buff she's not that good for much else. Your opponent must be low on health, pushed up, immobile, or you're working with a teammate who can follow you up. Pick at least 2. Your champions aren't designed for powerganks, You're playing for scaling first and ganking _opportunities_ second.
: What am I doing wrong in order to get a S/S+?
Go into your Profile Page (in the client) and look for the "Stats" tab. It gives you all the significant factors that go into grading you over your last few games.
: How do you deal with Yi as Nasus?
Nasus statchecks Yi in the midgame. Game is to try to accelerate the game too quickly for Yi to scale up into the late game.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I understand the writhing similarity thingy, I wrote a guide for Dota a long while ago and used another guide as a blue print for layouts as it was my first hero guide and got complained that it's copied, when the other guy had sections that mine didn't and vice versa. He talked a whole lot how armor works since the hero has armor reduction while I didn't at all, due to Dreams limited chars per section, I had 3 sections dedicated only to mid lane match-ups, which the other guy didn't, and a lot of similar things, but what I did in the end was post a forenote with "hey, I used this [link] as a blue print so it will look similar" type of thing. Anyway, sorry for blaming for copy. That 1st part didn't help, plus a while ago a guy copied Shadiversity's female armor vid here on the boards, so.... Still, good job on the post. I for one love Skill Capped, they have super good vids, and high quality.
I feel ya. Wrote about trading card games a LOOONG time ago and while not accused of copying, I was often confused with another writer who did strategy and analysis for the game we played. Anyway with that said, no prob, I completely recognize why it came up so no hard feelings. Thanks for the compliment, and I love Skill Capped too. If only the Gameplay Boards was more like that then complaining about the game~
Rylalei (EUNE)
: I would say nice post....But....it's almost a 1-1 from a video on YouTube. Not sure which was it, Skill Capped or someone else, but I know for sure I watched one saying almost exactly the same thing. Now, I'm not mad that you shared, but if it's indeed a copy and not a coincidence (can happen) at least share the original to give credit. If it's just a coincidence, ignore my comment.
You're probably thinking of Skill-Capped's Complete 9.9 Jungling Guide, as well as a mix of multiple other Jungle Route guides they make, which is more of a guide for Junglers to learn the Jungle, as opposed for everyone to ward Lv1. While I'm certain skill-capped has bits and pieces covering each ward spot for each individual route (I know my description of the Raptor Ward and the Predator Route _is_ basically a one for one transcript), there's no all-in-one guide for warding since the 9.9 scuttle changes, which this post was intended to be. There's only so many ways to Jungle optimally however, so many wards to counter those routes, and I and whoever writes for skill-capped have similar writing styles, so this ultimately results in a very samey feel; I can recognize that. I'm sorry if this does look like copying.
Laura ß (NA)
: Just one of many reasons this games trash and you should never play it to relax after a hard day
Okay I mean, he's playing Shyvana, the not ganking part was a given. I would like to think however that it's okay for players to try new stuff in Normals.
YaraUwU (NA)
: Hey if the jg says ward something lvl one i ward that shit. Even with the xp nerfs jg is still the most impactful role in the game and can easily control a match better then any other role. Hell id love to main jg if it had any champions i liked and i didnt feel like such a detriment to my team for being terrible.
: Very solid post. This is good information and I hope people get a chance to read it! Only thing I would suggest is perhaps expanding the example champions that are shown for each type of jungler. It's really cool that you showed any at all (and even covered some of the more unexpected / unique junglers) but it might be nice for some people who are trying to learn to be able to see what kind of jungler Shaco, Rengar, or Warwick tend to be for example. Also, having example pictures of the warding locations / pathing you're talking about could help people follow what you're talking about, but your descriptions were spot on and really did paint a clear picture regardless. {{sticker:sg-ahri-2}}
I would love to be able to list and organize all the Junglers that way, but the big problem is just how many of them are good at (or at least okay with) doing a 4 camp Control clear, greatly bloating the Control section and making the distinction a little arbitrary, and especially more muddy when the enemy Jungler decides to yell "fuck it" and be unpredictable. It's far more effective to go with using the Raptor and Blue Buff wards to read the enemy Jungler's movements and predicting their clear off that. With that said, I could articulate that particular point better, and I should probably add that in...somewhere. Later though. Will look into pictures. Unfortunately I burned all my free time this afternoon just writing all of this so they will also have to come later.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Kai Guy (NA)
: Dog, Folks complained about {{champion:157}} being weak on release for the first few days.
Woah hey, man, context. Those same idiots were the ones rushing IE on Yasuo on release.
: I feel like his early game still got a passive buff with the scuttle change he can now successfully get a kill/assist at lvl 2, take enemy teams buff gank one more time successfully then take scuttle in that time window, however IMO xin falls off late game hard unless he catches someone split pushing
Okay, I'm not sure what that has to do with this change.
: > [{quoted}](name=No Ganks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uE0QEAcF,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-08T22:13:32.139+0000) > > [New] If Master Yi has struck less than the maximum amount of times and there are no other nearby eligible targets, he strikes the same target for 25% damage before checking again > Duration changed from [variable] to 0.8 > > > Guinsoo's Rageblade > [Changelist] > Phantom hit frequency increased from [every 2 attacks] to [every 3 attacks] > Armor penetration changed from [6%+0.5% per lvl (15% Max)] to 15% > Magic penetration changed from [6%+0.5% per lvl (15% Max)] to 15% > > Ok so what these changes promote are for yi to never go on hit cause to be honest hes not even strong unless funneled as it is he is balanced this is rage blade nerf removes about 20% of his damage .But with the Q change it promotes a 1 shot crit style that legit gets to a point of 0 counter play at full build yis Q will hit most squishy targets for around 1900 damage .So I don't really understand why these are the changes you are doing it makes yi less fun and it makes playing vs him less fun . > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uE0QEAcF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-08T23:01:44.673+0000) > > That Q change is only relevant if you're running around all by yourself. No minions, no Jungle monsters, just you and Yi in the middle of nowhere. > > At that point if you're caught by a Yi in that position, you probably deserve to die anyway. Holy shit this is the new Yi change? That's a huge deal! No! Q is entirely designed aroung *hitting multiple targets.* That's where it should be getting it's full value, it exactly *shouldn't* be getting extra value for a single target. Yi is already a strong duelist from early to mid game, and then some games there are problems where he snowballs out of control. One of the few good methods for preventing him from snowballing is counterjungling him from the very beginning. Taking what little ability most junglers have to do that away is crazy when he already strong single target and multitarget squisher. Is Riot trying to drive this game dead?
Calm down dude, this isn't youtube, stop selling the kool-aid.
: all recent bruiser releases/reworks have been overloaded do we not remember {{champion:164}}'s release?
[Relevant /dev article](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2016/12/dev-on-evolving-the-laning-fighter/).
: What am I doing wrong?
Well your recent statistics say you're not doing that much wrong, and especially when you're playing Support Nautilus, don't undervalue assists cuz you do seem to get plenty of that. Guessing from how you listed off 3 things and then said "other stuff", I strongly suspect you're trying too hard to learn too many things all at once and are failing at that. Focus on one thing at a time if and when you can and get good at that one specific thing before learning the next concept. Again, I must emphasize that your statistics overall are saying some pretty alright things for you, so at this point I think what you really need is focus. Maybe focusing entirely on Support since that seems to be your best role at that moment, and it's the least mechanically intensive (short of you throwing your Q every time its off cooldown) so you can focus on your macro skills. And don't beat yourself up too much. Celebrate victories and analyze losses (with a cool head), that's how you get better.
: Is Irelia kit overloaded?
[Funny enough, Riot has a post explicitly detailing why they design Melee Fighters to be overloaded](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2016/12/dev-on-evolving-the-laning-fighter/). The example case being Camille, but Irelia falls into an extremely similar design case so most of what's said here can also apply. The tl;dr is that intentionally overdesigned and overloaded fighters are way easier to balance than simple binary champions who win games or feed hard on a single number change. I really suggest you actually read the article however.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pTHmbZkO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-05-08T22:56:02.926+0000) > > For those not aware, the buff is a slight cooldown reduction of Three Talon Strike from 9/8/7/6/5 to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5. > > I would like to point out this is largely a midgame buff only. > > Xin Zhao clears just fine, often only needing one usage of his Q per camp if that, and the cooldown doesn't typically carry over onto other camps. Furthermore, this change does virtually nothing for early game ganks. I suppose this may help out in 1v1 fights in the early game, but you shouldn't be 1v1 fighting Xin Zhao in the first place so no effective change there. > > On the other hand, as a buff only to his early rank cooldowns, it would effectively have no difference by late game. > > The real change I think this may cause is that it would give more credence to E Max second Xin Zhaos, since there's even less marginal gain per ranking his Q. > > To respond to the OP with this in mind, I genuinely don't think the problem is buffing an already strong champion necessarily. The real problem as I see it is that it may emphasize a strength of Xin Zhao that people already hate, that being that if you get caught by a Xin Zhao (especially an E max second Xin Zhao), you're already caught and you're probably already dead. How can you sit here and lie to us? We can see the numbers and clearly the cooldown is being reduced at ALL levels so it's not just a midgame buff only.
Okay little touchy there. I would like to clarify exactly what you seem to be accusing me of. Typically when describing individual abilities, you call out their Ranks, in which the buff has no effect on Xin Zhao's rank 5 Q and a whopping .5 second cooldown difference on his rank 4 Q. If this is what you are accusing me of lying about, well, I am the one who provided the numbers and I use the post to explain why the early rank buffs are negligible early game. With the buff also being factually nonexistent late, this is why I described it as a midgame buff. If you really did mean levels, would you happen to already be an E Max second Xin Zhao player? In that case, yes you are correct, this is technically a straight buff at all levels 2-17. This is in fact what I expressed concern of in my original post. Do keep in mind however that a large number of Xin Zhao players are Q max second players, with [lolalytics at the time of writing putting them at ~18%](https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/XinZhao/Jungle/), about 1/5th of the player pool. And in that case, this is only a buff from levels 2-12. And I must reiterate from my earlier post that in the early game, the situations where a 2 second difference in a Rank 1 Q being significant are either few and far between or ultimately unimportant in the overall scheme of things. The 2-12 window mentioned above being even smaller when looked at from that sense. With that said, unless you're super adamant that E Max second Xins are the only ones who matter and that 2 second difference truly does have significant impacts on his early game and late, I really don't know where you are coming from.
No Ganks (EUW)
: Why are you trying to make Yi a much more unhealthy champion overall
That Q change is only relevant if you're running around all by yourself. No minions, no Jungle monsters, just you and Yi in the middle of nowhere. At that point if you're caught by a Yi in that position, you probably deserve to die anyway.
Haze97 (EUW)
: Why the fuck is Xin Zhao getting a buff?
For those not aware, the buff is a slight cooldown reduction of Three Talon Strike from 9/8/7/6/5 to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5. I would like to point out this is largely a midgame buff only. Xin Zhao clears just fine, often only needing one usage of his Q per camp if that, and the cooldown doesn't typically carry over onto other camps. Furthermore, this change does virtually nothing for early game ganks. I suppose this may help out in 1v1 fights in the early game, but you shouldn't be 1v1 fighting Xin Zhao in the first place so no effective change there. On the other hand, as a buff only to his early rank cooldowns, it would effectively have no difference by late game. The real change I think this may cause is that it would give more credence to E Max second Xin Zhaos, since there's even less marginal gain per ranking his Q. To respond to the OP with this in mind, I genuinely don't think the problem is buffing an already strong champion necessarily. The real problem as I see it is that it may emphasize a strength of Xin Zhao that people already hate, that being that if you get caught by a Xin Zhao (especially an E max second Xin Zhao), you're already caught and you're probably already dead.
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TehNACHO

Level 171 (NA)
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