: "Buff them for normal play while dropping their power in professional play"
Don't know about other champs, but as a Shen main, I can say that phrase actually worked out for him back in patch 7.8. Riot nerfed the CD and scaling on his Ultimate in exchange for flat damage on his Q in order to stop pro players from using the shield as a pro-active tool for ganking and diving, rather than a reactive tool to save people. I distinctively remember people on the boards and other so-called Shen "mains" actually whining that this would only make Shen even worse. Surprise, his win rate went up by a solid 1.5%. Ironically, the only reason we got nerfed later was because pre-season 8 hit and people on the boards started complaining that Shen (and Maokai) were doing too much damage in the early game.
: Do you believe that Riot is enfocing a 50% winrate by intentionally matching you with bad teams?
I never understood why people get angry at a 50% chance at winning a game. Isn't that the most fair way? If matchmaking decides **_Not_** to go for 50-50, that means that one team implicitly has a greater chance of beating the other, even if its something miniscule as 51-49. Good for the 5 people on the better team, but not for the 5 people on the team that has a lesser chance of beating them. If that was actually the case, I guarantee you people would be complaining that Riot's matchmaking is even more biased than they already do, for deciding that one group of players should have the scales tilted in their favor.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 9
Hello Meddler, what exactly is the current direction Riot is thinking about buffing Shen? Is it more utility-wise, or damage-wise? I remember that the last Shen buffs focused around nerfing the utility of his ult in exchange for base damage on his queue, which worked out quite good in solo queue. The early Season 8 nerfs somewhat reverted this however, and Shen lost crucial bonus damage to minions that make it quite hard to last hit under tower.
: Whatever, I shouldn't had brought "winrate" into this. I'm editing the OP to not mention winrate because I can't be bothered going over flawed stats sites. The observation is Nasus is *strong* in low elo, I believe this to be correct.
"Strong" in low elo. You "BELIEVE" this to be correct. Immediately decides that every single stat site that shows he's not is flawed since it goes against your argument.
Divewing (OCE)
: Is he? He opens saying Duskblade needs to be removed, then later says that all ad assassins who use it should be gutted. I don't understand this logic, if the problem is duskblade, the champs wont need nerfing, if they do need nerfing anyway, then does that mean it's really duskblade causing the problems? I get the feeling this is the kind of person who will sit incredibly far up the lane with no vision as a squishball adc, expecting he can compete with champions who are literally designed to pick off isolated targets quickly and efficiently. Contrary to what everyone seems to believe, Assassins don't magically 1-shot people out of nowhere. They 1-shot people out of nowhere after getting a few kills, and maintaining that lead. Until that point, most of them have perfectly reasonable counterplay that it's more on you if you die to them.
Adding to this, I could have sworn that the entire reason DuskBlade was added to the game in the first place was to purposely give AD assassins an item that they needed to rely on, and therefore could be used as an extra balancing lever for them.
Rioter Comments
Hotarµ (NA)
: Okay, first off, I just want to thank you for giving an experienced, high ELO player's perspective on this. I appreciate the effort you put into making this post and the constructive nature of it makes me really happy. Try posting this on [r/Shen](https://www.reddit.com/r/Shen/) as well as Gameplay+! I do admit that I (and most other players) don't want to see his kit reverted, but rather revisited. Shen's current kit feels like he still hasn't been modernized. He's awkward, clunky to duel with when compared to others, and generally doesn't accomplish his intended purpose of being a duelist-tank and instead is just a tank-ult bot. I do still love playing Shen, but I think a lot of his complaints come from the sheer amount of potential his rework had and how little it actually accomplished. I wrote this comment below on one of those 'Revert Shen' posts you talked about. I think it sums up how I feel about Shen's gameplay. _Remember this is just my opinion!_ >"_Gameplay wise, they should just double down on his defensive abilities and force him into more of a Support/Tank role rather than Tank/Fighter/Support. Right now he's being stretched too thin and it's hard to deviate from Shen's linear gameplay. The most he'll ever do fighter wise is slap a Titanic Hydra on and use auto resets, he's just not threatening enough to ever make a fighter playstyle viable._" ________________ >Yes, R into E-Q-W is 90% of what Shen does. Yes, it can be boring sometimes. But remember, that's literally why you pick Shen. I love that you mentioned how boring/uninteresting Shen can be at times. Not _every_ champion has to be a mobility heavy damage dealer, Shen has a clear niche and should stay that way should he ever receive changes. >Remember that Shen is a champ balanced solely around professional and coordinated team play. I also think this is a very important point to bring up. It's also something I'd like to see changed. The only way for Shen to ever receive a better/more interesting kit would be for his ultimate to be fundamentally changed. It's just too strong in it's current state, similar to Ornn. His entire kit is held back by the strength of one ability that only pros can _fully_ capitalize on most of the time. _____________ #Here are some bonuses for reading my long ass comment! [ Here's a link to a _badass_ Pulsefire Shen voiceover that someone made. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVxADvFIzmc) [ If you're a lore nerd, check out this post I made detailing my thoughts on Shen's overall potential.](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/ogdasvJh-what-champions-have-the-most-potential-for-expansion)
Hey, thanks for the comments and your own insight! Generally agree on the clunkiness. While I'm used to it, the face of the matter is that the clunkiness is still _there_. > Gameplay wise, they should just double down on his defensive abilities and force him into more of a Support/Tank role rather than Tank/Fighter/Support. Right now he's being stretched too thin and it's hard to deviate from Shen's linear gameplay. The most he'll ever do fighter wise is slap a Titanic Hydra on and use auto resets, he's just not threatening enough to ever make a fighter playstyle viable. Maybe there can be some way of doubling down on the Support/Tank role you suggested. The support tools are there already in the form of his E, W, and ult, he just needs some extra tankiness somewhere. Back in Riot's old class identification system, they said the whole point of tanks is to slowly whittle you down while you try to overcome their defense. One idea I floated around is just removing the Sword entirely, and instead having Shen's Q empower his next 3 autos to some number that is midway between his current empowered and unempowered Q, while also being on a shorter cooldown (4 seconds) due to Shen being unable to build the usual CD reduction items other tanks can. This can also center his dodge field around him as well, similar to old Maokai. > The only way for Shen to ever receive a better/more interesting kit would be for his ultimate to be fundamentally changed. It's just too strong in it's current state, similar to Ornn. His entire kit is held back by the strength of one ability that only pros can fully capitalize on most of the time. But what could Riot change though? I'm all for this, but its literally what defines Shen as a champion. I remember back for old pre-rework (or was it post rework?) Shen Riot tested putting a limited range on his ult in internal testing, but ultimately scrapped it since it literally gutted his winrate. They never even released it to the PBE, they just mentioned it offhandedly in a balance post on Shen.
Rioter Comments
: try gameplay + Shen is fine where he is, he just takes more skill and teamwork. additionally, I liked how simplistic shen used, to be.
I actually didn't think about that. I'll try submitting it there too. Thanks!
Rioter Comments
Trogmar (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Tennousu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9kc5aA7E,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-28T19:18:11.727+0000) > > **Warning: Lengthy post from a very passionate Shen player. ** > > As I'e already done on a number of Shen related posts, I'll leave my own thoughts as a Plat 300k+ Mastery Level 7 Shen main and try to address the points in your post: > > 1. Strictly numbers-wise, Shen is doing fine. NA op.gg has Shen at a 49.2% win rate overall, while lolalytics has him at a 50% win rate overall in the top lane. Remember that Shen is a champ balanced solely around professional and coordinated team play. That is a _very_ respectable win rate for solo queue, especially if you compare Shen to his other professionally balanced counterparts (Kalista, Ryze, Azir, Sejuani, Galio.) > 2. I agree on the audio overall (voice lines wise). Shen still has the same voice lines he had from season 1, and I will admit the pool of available lines is rather... limited. Sound effects wise however, the rework was pretty spectacular. Especially the Q. Pulling your sword through someone and hitting them with those empowered "WACHUNG" autos is very satisfying. > 3. His taunt hit box is quite fair for what it has to offer: a multi-man cc that can be a gapcloser, escape, and peel. It actually had its width buffed (from 100 to 120) back in patch 7.8. The taunt comes out decently fast; a good rule of thumb is that even if you're trying to land a taunt at max range from the side, make sure the edge of the indicator is just touching the edge of a champ model if you're trying to predict and lead. The shorter from max range you need to land the taunt, the more of the indicator you should place directly onto the target. (Also, make sure you're quickcasting this spell with indicators; that is, you hold down E to show the indicator line, then release E to immediately dash). > 4. The Sword pulling takes some getting used to. Back when Riot reworked Shen, it was during a very strange phase where many reworks and champion kits focused around "minigames", forcing you to directly interact with your opponent for some (in theory) greater benefit than if you didn't. In Shen's case, dragging the sword through someone for higher damage than if you didn't. Enforce in your head that the whole point of the sword dragging is to give Shen a damaging ability that does 300% AD damage + 18% max. health magic damage every 5 seconds. On the bright side, I guarantee you that no one up to Diamond Elo pays attention to the giant floating sword, nor do they make any attempt to dodge it when you try to pull it through them. > 5. You don't always have to use Q before W, especially in laning phase. Against certain champions, e.g. Jax, you can "hover" or stay near your floating sword. If they jump on you and attempt to use an empowered auto (e.g. Jax Q into R auto into W auto reset), pop W to block the damage, then taunt through them and then drag Q, to get your empowered autos in and trade back. > 6. Yes, R into E-Q-W is 90% of what Shen does. Yes, it can be boring sometimes. But remember, _that's literally why you pick Shen_. Shen's kit is like what it currently is solely because of your ability to immediately grant someone on the other side of the map a shield and teleport to them. _Your ult is a literal game changer. _ Games are won or lost based on a single use of your ult. Save your jungle from an invade, or help him invade the enemy's jungle. Save your carry from assassination, and maybe pick off an enemy at the same time to turn the game into a 4 v. 5. Get the snowball rolling down in botlane, and get your ADC a double kill, or save both your carry and support from a gank. The possibilities are endless. > 12. Again to reiterate, Shen is balanced around team play. Yes, it feels horrible to lose when you have incompetent teammates. But on the flip side, it also feels amazing to win when you do have good team members. The higher in elo you climb, the better Shen becomes, simply because your teammates are more likely to know what they're doing, and how to take advantage of having a Shen on their team. > 14. Lastly, although this wasn't a point you made, if you truly want to learn and get better at Shen, join us on reddit at [r/Shen](https://www.reddit.com/r/Shen/). We're surprisingly active for such a small playerbase on a nice champion, and many of us are willing to lend advice and tips. Some of the more well known Shen one trick's (TrickyTravster, RoyTheRoyalBoy, and EUW Challenger player PetuTheBeast) tend to post frequently as well. Very well written and informative! I should say that I do tend to play him in support more then top now days, I used to love old shen top. But since the rework I havent had much success, Prehaps a bit of a learning curve? I feel like he is missing something though, like a piece is missing from his kit. I do think a Swain like grab for his Q on champions with in somthing like 400 units of shen would be good(so your not grabbing champs across the map). I will continue to try him out, He could use just a bit of love though.
If you like playing Shen support; then by all means, go for it! Max your E first (for shorter cooldown and more upfront damage) and take aftershock and ignite. It's a perfectly viable playstyle, and also frees up your team to take a more damage-oriented or carry-oriented top laner. I do agree Shen could use a bit of love. He's not very easy to pick up for new players, and the sword dragging is a definite turn-off for some. Between you and me, I actually quit Shen for about a year after his rework due to not understanding his new design. It was only after I started duoing with an ADC friend in ranked that I realized his true potential. I'll probably make another post on the boards regarding Shen in the near future, since alot of people tend to stereotype him as being gutted after his rework, or demanding that Riot revert him.
Trogmar (NA)
: State of Shen.
**Warning: Lengthy post from a very passionate Shen player. ** As I'e already done on a number of Shen related posts, I'll leave my own thoughts as a Plat 300k+ Mastery Level 7 Shen main and try to address the points in your post: 1. Strictly numbers-wise, Shen is doing fine. NA op.gg has Shen at a 49.2% win rate overall, while lolalytics has him at a 50% win rate overall in the top lane. Remember that Shen is a champ balanced solely around professional and coordinated team play. That is a _very_ respectable win rate for solo queue, especially if you compare Shen to his other professionally balanced counterparts (Kalista, Ryze, Azir, Sejuani, Galio.) 2. I agree on the audio overall (voice lines wise). Shen still has the same voice lines he had from season 1, and I will admit the pool of available lines is rather... limited. Sound effects wise however, the rework was pretty spectacular. Especially the Q. Pulling your sword through someone and hitting them with those empowered "WACHUNG" autos is very satisfying. 3. His taunt hit box is quite fair for what it has to offer: a multi-man cc that can be a gapcloser, escape, and peel. It actually had its width buffed (from 100 to 120) back in patch 7.8. The taunt comes out decently fast; a good rule of thumb is that even if you're trying to land a taunt at max range from the side, make sure the edge of the indicator is just touching the edge of a champ model if you're trying to predict and lead. The shorter from max range you need to land the taunt, the more of the indicator you should place directly onto the target. (Also, make sure you're quickcasting this spell with indicators; that is, you hold down E to show the indicator line, then release E to immediately dash). 4. The Sword pulling takes some getting used to. Back when Riot reworked Shen, it was during a very strange phase where many reworks and champion kits focused around "minigames", forcing you to directly interact with your opponent for some (in theory) greater benefit than if you didn't. In Shen's case, dragging the sword through someone for higher damage than if you didn't. Enforce in your head that the whole point of the sword dragging is to give Shen a damaging ability that does 300% AD damage + 18% max. health magic damage every 5 seconds. On the bright side, I guarantee you that no one up to Diamond Elo pays attention to the giant floating sword, nor do they make any attempt to dodge it when you try to pull it through them. 5. You don't always have to use Q before W, especially in laning phase. Against certain champions, e.g. Jax, you can "hover" or stay near your floating sword. If they jump on you and attempt to use an empowered auto (e.g. Jax Q into R auto into W auto reset), pop W to block the damage, then taunt through them and then drag Q, to get your empowered autos in and trade back. 6. Yes, R into E-Q-W is 90% of what Shen does. Yes, it can be boring sometimes. But remember, _that's literally why you pick Shen_. Shen's kit is like what it currently is solely because of your ability to immediately grant someone on the other side of the map a shield and teleport to them. _Your ult is a literal game changer. _ Games are won or lost based on a single use of your ult. Save your jungle from an invade, or help him invade the enemy's jungle. Save your carry from assassination, and maybe pick off an enemy at the same time to turn the game into a 4 v. 5. Get the snowball rolling down in botlane, and get your ADC a double kill, or save both your carry and support from a gank. The possibilities are endless. 12. Again to reiterate, Shen is balanced around team play. Yes, it feels horrible to lose when you have incompetent teammates. But on the flip side, it also feels amazing to win when you do have good team members. The higher in elo you climb, the better Shen becomes, simply because your teammates are more likely to know what they're doing, and how to take advantage of having a Shen on their team. 14. Lastly, although this wasn't a point you made, if you truly want to learn and get better at Shen, join us on reddit at [r/Shen](https://www.reddit.com/r/Shen/). We're surprisingly active for such a small playerbase on a nice champion, and many of us are willing to lend advice and tips. Some of the more well known Shen one trick's (TrickyTravster, RoyTheRoyalBoy, and EUW Challenger player PetuTheBeast) tend to post frequently as well.
: Rammus literally doesn't counter attack damage/basic attack champions now thanks to true dmg
As far as I'm aware, he still does. 1. His W basically gives him 100% bonus total armor AND 50% bonus total magic resist, covering not just AD auto attack damage, but on-hit magic damage as well (looking at you, Irelia and Jax). 2. His reflect passive synergizes with his W since it scales off his total armor, and has its damage further boosted while its active. 3. Rammus is probably the single best user of Thornmail in the entire game, with his passive and W scaling with Thornmail's armor, and Thornmail's passive scaling with Rammus' own W. 4. Rammus also has one of the best armor scalings in the game, and is one of the top 5 Champions with highest armor (109) at level 18. Literally the only two champions I can think of that can actually brute force a Rammus to death through his W and Thornmail is Master Yi (flat and % AD true damage from his E; on-hit build with Rageblade and Bloodrazor) and Jax (basically meant to 1 v 1 anyone in the late game). Edit: Just some math for funsies: Assuming Rammus is level 13 with nothing but Tabi's and Thornmail: * Rammus would have 83 armor from levels, + 20 from Tabi and + 80 from Thornmail, giving him 183 total armor. * Rammus using his W would give him 30 + 100% bonus total armor, and thus would have 183 + 30 + 183 = 396 armor while his W was active. * Rammus' passive would deal 30 + 15% total armor (0.15 * 396 = 59) = 89 damage on its own while W is active. * Thornmail would deal 25 + 10% bonus armor ( 0.1 * (20 + 80 + 30 + 183) = 31) = 56 damage. * 56 + 89 = 145 magic damage reflected for every auto attack done during W.
: can shen get a buff?
As a Shen main myself, as much as I hate to admit it, Shen DOES NOT need a buff. Op.gg and Lolalytics has him sitting at a 49.1 - 49.8% win rate. For a champion balanced purely around professional play and team coordination, that's _pretty damn good_. Yes, he's just an ok pick in top lane. Is he great? No. But is he bad? Also no. You're not meant to be a carry in the sense of blowing up your opponents in 0.3 seconds. **THAT'S NOT YOUR JOB**. Your job title is "**Warden**". You are the bulwark, the frontline, the protector. **YOUR JOB** is to keep your teammates safe so that they can blow up your enemies for you. You have all the tools you need. A gap closer, that is also an escape, that is also a multi-man cc, that is also an engage tool, that is also a peel tool. You have an AOE auto attack dodge, that can absorb _infinite_ damage for 1.5 seconds from auto attacks. And most importantly, your ultimate. A global shield that also teleports you to an ally in need. These things have high cooldowns because they have to. Proper usage and respect for your abilities wins games. Failure to recognize just how powerful your abilities are and using them willy-nilly loses games. _Timing is key_. YOUR WIN CONDITION IN LANE is to not feed. Doesn't matter if you never kill your lane opponent. True damage doesn't matter if you never die in the first place. Hug your tower if you have to, JUST DON'T DIE. Go even. Watch the map. Keep a clear eye out for ultimate plays. Be the game changer. Turn a 1 vs 1 into a 2 vs 1. Turn a 2 vs 2 into a 2 vs 3. A single ult is the pendulum that can shift the scales into your team's, or the enemies. And if you lose a game? Fine. Whatever. Remember the old saying. 30% of games are impossible to lose, your teammates are so good its decided for you. 30% of games are impossible to win, your teammates are so bad its decided for you. 40% of games however, that's on you to decide. Maybe you've have too much of the first category. But I can assure you, for the last one, I would gladly pick Shen every time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tennousu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iFQfVQ8z,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-13T03:52:10.769+0000) > > Just going to leave this here as a 300k+ Mastery Level 7 Shen player: > > Shen doesn't need the full Tiamat to CS under tower. Grabbing that 9% attack speed rune gives you enough attack speed to auto-towershot-auto caster minions from lvl 1 without Q, and Shen Q with Doran Shield passive does enough damage to always kill melee minions after 2 tower shots at all stages in laning phase. For siege minions, tower damage will always leave a bare sliver of health, just enough to last hit with Q with proper timing. > > If you're still unconfident, a single adaptive force rune + longsword, or Bami's Cinder tick allows you to last hit casters with towershot-Q once you get back to lane. > > Also, remember that Shen's stats are "garbage" for a reason. You have a spammable shield on a 10 second cooldown, and an auto attack dodge that mitigates all damage from the minion wave and empowered auto attacks. Good Shens can abuse these two in tandem for some very lopsided trades, and can chunk an enemy for 1/4 - 1/3 of their health each time and take almost no damage in return. It only becomes hard to farm under tower when you are also getting poked like a Jace matchup where you will take an auto (or worse) to the face for every CS that you take under tower. Tiamat is super important on Shen so that you're not always pushed under tower. It is difficult to manage waves properly without Tiamat as a Shen. You buy Tiamat on Shen. Do you think that a nerf to Tiamat is also nerfing Shen indirectly?
Actually, I do believe that a nerf to Tiamat is an indirect nerf to Shen. You are completely right in saying that Tiamat for Shen is extremely important for managing the waves, and that some are completely justified in saying you "need" to buy Tiamat. Personally, I do hope that Riot sees this post, and may compensate us with some form of flat damage back to minions. Even something small as +10 or +15 bonus is all we need for perfect last hitting. My first response was only to the intent of the original post, which was that Shen couldn't farm under tower with his Q. I just wanted to show that you actually can, with just the longsword component of Tiamat, and not the whole item itself. Getting pushed under tower is another story entirely. In the past, Shen used to have bonus flat damage towards minions (30/50/70/90/110) along with the % health damage on his Q. This also allowed you to go Sunfire for your first item, some Shens even purposely let themselves get shoved under tower as it guaranteed safe CSing and a safe laning phase, while working towards an item that provided both health and damage. Eventually Riot reasoned that since his ult took up too much of his power budget, Shen should lose the ability to spam Q and "push" the lane. Current Shen has never really recovered from this; this is why we are forced to go Tiamat -> Titanic as our first item just so we don't get shoved under tower and into the situation you just described. Bami's -> into Sunfire is an alternative, but in reality it just shoves too slowly and too randomly to truely be effective.
AjXtar (EUW)
: Sion also have a shield and has high base stats. Shen shield can't even be controlled properly and you need to position to use it correctly in a fight. On top of that his cds are really long. There are a lot of champions with a shield and have high base stats. Shen having that low base stats is stupid and he is useful only as a ult bot.
I will agree that Shen does have long CDs on his abilities. I highly disagree that you can't control Shen's shield. All you need to do is pop a single ability (usually Q) to activate. You don't HAVE to spam Q in lane constantly. Time it to safely CS that one siege minion, or hold onto it for when you taunt in for a trade. Learning to position and correctly time your Shield is what defines good Shens from mediocre ones. There may be other champions with higher base stats and shields, but Shen get his for free as part of his passive. Shen can also proc his shield far more often than other champions as again, it is a static 10 second cooldown that is further reduced every time he affects another champion with an ability. Shen is also more than just an ult bot. You have high dueling capacity from your Q % health damage and the fact that you are a tank that naturally builds for defense and survival. Shen also has powerful abilities in his taunt and W auto dodge. Use it to catch someone off position, land a 2, 3, or 4 man taunt on the enemy team, or peel for your carry. Do the same thing for your W. In this current damage meta where a single auto attack can go over 500+ damage from a triforce proc or crit, blocking even 1 auto can mean the difference between a teammate surviving getting jumped on by a jax, irelia, akali etc., or dying.
: 1325 tiamat is gonna shit on top shen even more lol
Just going to leave this here as a 300k+ Mastery Level 7 Shen player: Shen doesn't need the full Tiamat to CS under tower. Grabbing that 9% attack speed rune gives you enough attack speed to auto-towershot-auto caster minions from lvl 1 without Q, and Shen Q with Doran Shield passive does enough damage to always kill melee minions after 2 tower shots at all stages in laning phase. For siege minions, tower damage will always leave a bare sliver of health, just enough to last hit with Q with proper timing. If you're still unconfident, a single adaptive force rune + longsword, or Bami's Cinder tick allows you to last hit casters with towershot-Q once you get back to lane. Also, remember that Shen's stats are "garbage" for a reason. You have a spammable shield on a 10 second cooldown, and an auto attack dodge that mitigates all damage from the minion wave and empowered auto attacks. Good Shens can abuse these two in tandem for some very lopsided trades, and can chunk an enemy for 1/4 - 1/3 of their health each time and take almost no damage in return.
Jobriq (NA)
: Shen is a terrible ninja
As a Shen main myself, I would argue that's not entirely necessary or needed. The tether distance from the sword to Shen is absolutely massive, and can go up to roughly 3-4 screens away. Just because you can see the sword, doesn't mean that Shen is nearby.
: Can I expect to see some yorick buffs anytime soon???
He is getting an indirect buff with the new Death's Dance; 15% of all damage dealt now applies to the damage done by your ghouls, maiden, and the % hp magic damage when you attack the same target as the maiden.
: Q button, I mean Kha'Zix, is super well balanced RN
I find it interesting that you made this post after a ranked game where your team lost to a 16/2/3 Khazix. I also find it interesting that you were a level 5 MF with a score of 0/1/0 and 44 cs in a 20 minute ranked game, while the rest of your team is level 10 or higher. This implies you made this post not for any constructive criticism, but only to vent your frustration on the boards. It also implies you rage quit and/or afked and left your teammates in the dust.
GigglesO (NA)
: Armor pen is causing this damage meta....
1. You show us your items, but neglect to show what the enemy Volibear, Lucian, and Jhin have. Thus, you can't really tell if their damage output is greater than normal or to be expected. 2. You have a large amount of armor, but only about 2.5k max HP. You need to stack health along with armor to maximize your effective HP. Swapping out that frozen heart for a Warmogs or Randuins (or any other health item) would have made you far more tankier. 3. Your being concentrated on by 3 opponents, two of which are ADCs at late game, and literally eat Lucian's rank 3 full ult to the face. Note there is also a level 16 Volibear with his ultimate activated whacking you, dealing 155 magic damage a swing, and uses his own W execute on you at the end. I would be more upset if you DID survive. 4. You start off with roughly 300 armor, and dip to 234 armor, which is still roughly 70% physical damage reduction. This further encourages the idea that you simply didn't have enough HP to back up your armor in the first place which led to you dying.
: If you replaced Shen's ultimate you would never know he was the same champ from pre-rework.
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here. Are you saying that reworked Shen is bad? Or you saying that pre-rework Shen was good? Because if it's either of those two, I want to say that you're very, very, wrong. * Shen now has Actual energy regeneration mechanics. Pre-rework, Shen had the worse energy costs out of all the energy champions. Vorpal Blade Q costed 60 energy, with a 4 second cooldown at max rank. Shield W costed 50 energy on a 5 sec max rank CD. Taunt E costed 100-80 energy with an 8 sec CD. His only form of energy regen was the passive 10 energy regen/sec, along with 40 energy when landing a taunt, and a laughable 10/20/30 energy restored every 9/8/7 seconds on an auto attack. Landing a full combo literally costed his entire energy bar, and would massively punish you if you tried to taunt and miss. Not only that, even if you did land the combo, if you didn't hit more than 1 person with taunt you wouldn't have enough energy to do it again when the cooldowns came back up. * Shen now has actual damage. Old Vorpal Q did a flat 220 magic damage at max rank, while his taunt did 190 magic damage at max rank. They both had AP scaling only, meaning that any actual tank Shen was stuck with his crappy base damage, and would literally fall off a cliff and become irrelevant post laning phase. Compare that to his new Q, which does 18% max health damage, along with its scaling base. His new taunt scales with health as well, allowing him to take advantage of going tank. * Shen's old W shield was absolutely useless. It only shielded for 220 damage, and was skilled up last anyway. There was no point in using it since it would just drain your limited energy even faster. For all intents and purposes, post-rework Shen still has this ability, but now its in his passive, and with proper ability usage can be constantly maintained and available for free. * I don't think you understand just how massively powerful Shen's new W is. An AOE auto-attack dodge is absolutely insane, and well deserves the power budget it gives him. Laning phase, it allows you to avoid complete retaliation damage from the enemy minion wave. Block a single auto-attack in mid and late game, where empowered Auto attacks from champs like Nasus Q, Riven passive, Jax W, or on-hit effects like Irelia Q or Fiora Q can reach 300, 400, 500, 600+ damage or more with items like Triforce, and you've more than doubled or tripled the damage blocked by Shen's old W. For the Boards, which has a massive hardon against ADCS, I thought you would see the value in blocking 2, 3 or even 4 autos on yourself or on your teammates, and not take nearly 2000+ damage pre-mitigation from critical autos. * Old Shen was a hypertank in that he was absolutely impossible to kill, but in return was nothing more than a taunt and ult bot. Vorpal Blade was a dull, uninteractive point and click ability that basically gave Shen a permanent lvl 1 Garen passive. It meant he was a stone wall that couldn't be forced out of lane, but was basically a sack of cement in teamfights that needed to land that crucial taunt or else just uselessly walk around and do nothing. * New Shen is far more interactive and fun. Carefully dragging your Q through an opponent, dancing around and weaving auto attacks, properly timing your auto-dodge for that one empowered enemy auto; this is what defines a skilled Shen, and there is no greater thrill than besting an opponent in a 100-0 duel and showing off your mechanics. Compare that to old Shen, who just mindlessly pressed Q on an opponent and sat in one spot auto attacking. As a Plat Shen main whose played both versions, I can very much say that new Shen is a far better and healthier version of him compared to his old incarnation. Almost all Shen mains (atleast those on r/Shen and the discord anyway) think he's perfectly fine and in a great spot balance-wise, including EUW Challenger OTP PetuTheBeast. Lolalytics also has him consistently around 48-49% win rate, while op.gg has him at ~50% winrate as of this patch. For a champion that Riot balances purely around professional play, that's pretty damn impressive for _the_ team-reliant tank in the clown fest that is League's solo queue.
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: Just an Old Player.
Well said. It's quite a shame the league forums have always been like this. There's a pretty good reason the league subreddit has way more interaction between players and rioters, despite the circle-jerky reputation it has over here as a place to kiss riot's ass. Then again, there are 1 or 2 legitimately good posts, it's just that the Gameplay board is an overall cesspool where the trash is what usually rises to the top.
: > [{quoted}](name=FrostQueensPlane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yNaUT56d,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-04-05T13:55:13.584+0000) > > Hope this is a joke because 1) malphite loses to ad tank killing champions top, 2) he's actually one of the weakest top laners vs the most broken adcs in the game (kaisa and xayah), and 3) he has some of the lowest staying power out of all the tanks (part of the reason he's total ass vs adcs that aren't immobile), in a meta where the support has 50 shields up this is bad. Malphite shits on almost any AD champ. I don't think there is an AD matchup where he actively loses. Against champs like, Vlad, Swain, or Rumble, he has trouble, but I haven't lost a lane against an AD champ. If you take Arcane Comet with Manaflow Band and Scorch, you can poke any bruiser, duelist, or diver into oblivion with your Q while taking no damage with your 3000000 armor.
> [{quoted}](name=LDG Jiambles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yNaUT56d,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-04-05T14:54:56.623+0000) > > Malphite shits on almost any AD champ. I don't think there is an AD matchup where he actively loses. Against champs like, Vlad, Swain, or Rumble, he has trouble, but I haven't lost a lane against an AD champ. If you take Arcane Comet with Manaflow Band and Scorch, you can poke any bruiser, duelist, or diver into oblivion with your Q while taking no damage with your 3000000 armor. I heavily agree with you. In my experience, the only ad champs that give Malphite trouble are Trundle (steals your armor), Darius (his bleed counters your passive, and his true damage ult ignores all your armor), Pantheon (constant Q poke is troublesome until you get your first armor item) and Illaoi (just too much raw damage in general).
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: Siege minions nuke towers with new baron buff and banner of command (reddit)
Before everyone uses this to keep spreading the "riot hates towers" circlejerk, keep in mind tower scaling depends on the number of players on a team; hence this tower is far weaker than normal. Additionally, it was noted in yesterday's pbe patch by a Rioter that the new baron buff damage for siege minions failed to take into account Banner of Command's bonus damage, and was fixed/toned down accordingly.
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TehNACHO (NA)
: I'd like to contend that the S5 Tank Meta was actually a pretty decent time on the Boards in terms of relative toxicity to basically any other time. I joined Preseason 3-4 btw. Another vouch that shit has always been the same.
> [{quoted}](name=TehNACHO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oTEAdIAv,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-12-30T06:10:12.639+0000) > > I'd like to contend that the S5 Tank Meta was actually a pretty decent time on the Boards in terms of relative toxicity to basically any other time. > > I joined Preseason 3-4 btw. Another vouch that shit has always been the same. Its actually pretty funny; today you see complaints that tanks are ruining top lane right now for bruisers and fighters, and yet back then people were saying that it was the most balanced time in league (in relative terms; one massive outlier was Sejuani who was absolutely bonkers and had a 56%(?) winrate with Cinderhulk)
: People on Boards will and have always hate on the state of the game, don't force a narrative
Buddy, I've been here since Season 3. Make no mistake, the boards (or general forums, as it was known back then) have ALWAYS complained about this game. There must ALWAYS be something to complain about, whether it be Lee Sin, Vayne, Tanks, Assassins, Mages, ADCs and Crit (a staple) or just hating on Riot in general. I guarantee there has never been a time when the boards had a positive mentality or even neutral one for calmly discussing anything. The boards will always nostalgia goggle themselves and say that the past was always better. For all intents, the boards serve for nothing more than an echo chamber and giant circlejerk for people to vent and complain about what they don't like. I honestly would be happy if Riot just deletes the boards in its entirety, as at this point its literally the same exact people who farm for upvotes on the exact same targets.
: I've only come back recently, but based on my own observations, ADCs are MUCH stronger than they were the last time I played. I can have full build Sejuani and get utterly melted by just about any ADC in seconds. I think people are starting to get a little vicious about the imbalance. Make no mistake, they don't always carry if you're looking score-wise, but an ADC with even the majority of their final build can do some absurd damage and take almost none in the process without hard CC on them. As a tank main it throws me off, because I don't know who to CC anymore. Do I CC Garen/Volibear/Darius, who is trying to dive on my carry, or do I CC their carry who will walk through us if left to roam free?
> [{quoted}](name=musounotakamaru,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oULHKeNt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-29T02:55:09.420+0000) > > I've only come back recently, but based on my own observations, ADCs are MUCH stronger than they were the last time I played. I can have full build Sejuani and get utterly melted by just about any ADC in seconds. I think people are starting to get a little vicious about the imbalance. Make no mistake, they don't always carry if you're looking score-wise, but an ADC with even the majority of their final build can do some absurd damage and take almost none in the process without hard CC on them. > > As a tank main it throws me off, because I don't know who to CC anymore. Do I CC Garen/Volibear/Darius, who is trying to dive on my carry, or do I CC their carry who will walk through us if left to roam free? Ignore the deleted comment(s) above, still trying to figure out how this reply thing formats. I can see your point there. I will agree that adcs are certainly far stronger compared to the "lul adc2017" time period earlier this year. But even then, I would only consider it to be "very strong", and certainly not "broken". As for your other thoughts, I usually find it better to CC and help kill the front line. In my experience, the team whose front line breaks first often spends more time kiting back and trying to re-position, rather than dishing out as much damage as possible. Assuming both sides are even, or just slightly behind or ahead, it also helps to relieve pressure on your own carries and makes killing theirs far easier.
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: Why bother posting in gameplay & balance
Well, to be fair, as you stated, the community itself is indeed "massive." Despite what people post or cry about here on the boards, it only ever represents a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the LOL playerbase. And if you were a Riot employee, would you really want to step onto these boards and try to talk to people, when nearly every post (not all of them) is full of people screaming and blaming Riot as the worst company ever with terrible balancing?
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Tennousu (NA)
: I Just Summed Up Every Balance Issue in the Game
Too be honest, I don't actually believe in all of this stuff. I'm just listing the things that people on the boards like to spam over and over again.
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Tennousu

Level 116 (NA)
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