333lom (EUNE)
: Odyssey Viktor concept art
Leyvey! This is awesome. I love love LOVE the concept art. I will confess, it feels like the sleekness and spacing was lost in translation to 3D (the body shape is different, after all), but from the back - in my opinion - he looks absolutely fantastic! The cloak, the hair, the metal plate & cables protruding from the back of his neck, the **wrench** and the awesome arm just *synergise*, y'know? It looks awesome. If you're thinking of different approaches, one thing that might be really neat is a visor/mask that mostly focuses on the upper half of his face, revealing a human (or insectoid) mouth and/or jaw. Think a mechanic augmented with the capacity to use elaborate nerve-controlled tools, rather than a full cyborg who aims to replace and improve any and all bodily functions. Then again, a blast shield is totally justified for somebody who walks around with a goddamn WELDING LASER on his back, so in hindsight, maybe an unguarded jawline isn't a fantastic idea. Scarves, leather and breathing apparatus might be neat, though. An intricate and plentiful supply of pockets and tools all over his legs, shirt & jacket. I don't know how familiar you are with tradesman pants, but I buy em just cause they look neat and there are upside down pockets for notebooks, inner pockets for small tools, outside pockets for wallets and what-have-you and even clips for satchels and such. \\\\\ BUT I DIGRESS \\\\\ Sorry for trying to pitch ideas. I just really dig this concept and felt vicariously creative. Also Viktor stuff. VIKTOR STUFF.
YDN Mala (EUW)
: Viktor changes
The shield scales with Viktor's level - not with his Q's Level. Chaos Storm still has an upfront burst as far as I can tell (there's nowhere that says it's been removed?) and does slightly more damage than before (scaling ratio). It also has a HIGHER minimum speed than it used to (even with the augment upgrade) and a 10 pt lower maximum speed than it used to with the augment. Basically, it is moving faster at maximum range than it ever could before, and faster at close range than it used to before the R augment upgrade. --- I would like to see a higher AP ratio on VIktor's shield, but that Rylais effect might mean more nerfs, than buffs. :P
: > Your shield isn't weaker under new Vik until you invest just under 3000 gold into a mana item. It is, if you dont max it and dont upgrade it For cases of running away, 20% 0.75 sec slow is not as good as his Q haste that can be procced off a minion > There is nothing stopping you building tanky Yeah, but his tank build was already nerfed a lot, and removal of mana scaling straight up kills it. Might as well go Iceborn Ryze or Swain These changes are obviously made for midlane E max fullAP Viktor. For him, all 3 upgrades are now situational and can be picked in any order: Q for in-combat mobility and better shields, W to land his E and R easier and E for straight damage and waveclear
Last reply cause we're going round in circles here. > It is, if you dont max it and dont upgrade it Q shield doesn't scale with level. Viktor can still max and upgrade Q? > For cases of running away, 20% 0.75 sec slow is not as good as his Q haste that can be procced off a minion Q has an animation time. E does not. Further, I expect a 1000g Rylai's on top of a 30% speed boost is going to be core in top lane. And much cheaper than iceborn gauntlet. > Yeah, but his tank build was already nerfed a lot, and removal of mana scaling straight up kills it. Might as well go Iceborn Ryze or Swain. Iceborn Viktor existed before the mana scaling buffs were added. His damage was nerfed because he was over-performing and frustrating lane opponents. A mistake I'd rather not keep repeating. > These changes are obviously made for midlane E max fullAP Viktor. And the nerf to his ultimate was made to make him a 'mastermind' teamfighter. Nobody has any problem seeing the intent. It's been spelled out - they want him OUT of top lane. He looks better in top lane after these changes than before. Ult permaslow, easy to chase down single targets, cheaper build path w/ more damage or build versatility. We'll get nerfed. My biggest fear is that we lose Turbocharge's 30% boost.
: > You're acting like Viktor's damage is reliant on maxing q and purchasing tanky defensive options. No, I am not. Max Q wasn't op at top because of damage, but because it didn't allow enemies to fight back. Full AP E max Viktor deals more damage but if he fucks up his positioning or pushes too far, he is dead > Let's say instead of maxing q, you max your E. Now I can't just tank that much damage with Q, I can actually take damage during Q-AA trade so I cant permapoke with Q and klepto. E has better damage but it also pushes the lane and can miss
> No, I am not. Max Q wasn't op at top because of damage, but because it didn't allow enemies to fight back. Full AP E max Viktor deals more damage but if he fucks up his positioning or pushes too far, he is dead You're ignoring what I'm saying. Your shield isn't weaker under new Vik until you invest just under 3000 gold into a mana item. Mathematically, you aren't at a disadvantage. It is also NOT only his E that slows stuff. It's all of his abilities - including the initial q cast, which has a higher range than Viktor's AA discharge. There is no reality where this version is more skill based :P > Now I can't just tank that much damage with Q, I can actually take damage during Q-AA trade so I cant permapoke with Q and klepto. E has better damage but it also pushes the lane and can miss There is nothing stopping you building tanky or offtanky and shielding or healing damage :P
: > you don't 'need' the q augment in top lane You do. Q augment was THE reason to play him top. He spammed his maxed Q with a huge shield(improved by Q upgrade) and you can't really trade(shield) or run away(Q upgrade ms and {{item:3025}} slow). Now with nerfed mana scaling he is more fair, and after this rework you can't build him tank anymore > Poke Viktor is gonna be nerfed. Don't really think so. He needs all his upgrades to do well toplane(W to land his E, E to deal damage, Q for mobility), can't build tank, can't use Klepto as good as he did. He can probably be stronger as a midlaner with E-W upgrades, getting almost guaranteed double E on slowed(with Q) enemy is strong. > I can see support Viktor causing some serious problems Yeah, for his team. "Guys I need 1200 gold to actually start being useful, ok?"
I can 5 or 6 E poke most enemy laners to 0 after my first back with sorc shoes. You're acting like Viktor's damage is reliant on maxing q and purchasing tanky defensive options. That's absurd. :P Let's say instead of maxing q, you max your E. Let's also say you don't need to save up 2.6k gold for an Iceborn Gauntlet. Instead, you get W augment and invest in some AP. Cheap. Easy. Efficient. I mean, what does the permaslowed Darius do to catch you now? Flash and hope for the best? :P The mana scaling was overbearing late game. 500 pt shields? Very oppressive. But mid game, those shields were still only around 200. The same that they will be with 30-135 scaling. Vik's numbers aren't changing until late. If anything, he's getting a few buffs. If people were struggling to handle a VIktor in top lane who had a slow on his CLOSE range ability, how will they feel being slowed by everything he does? Now, this is beta, so it's all subject to change, but I already know exactly how I plan to use this new tool. And if people can't escape me, the first step will be to either nerf my damage, my q augment, or my slow.
: He would have to upgrade his W for this. Thats not really good because he also needs his Q upgrade asap on toplane. Actually I dont see the "buff" in new changes. Q is a nerf unless you build literally 0 mana. R has overall a bit higher scaling and smoother damage, but the loss of +speed upgrade hurts more(but it will proc w slow more often, so maybe it is enough). W is strong, but it further improves the hexcore rush build
Well, I mean - you don't 'need' the q augment in top lane. I currently rush sorc boots and max E, unless I"m against a gnar or something. But even if you did - now you can just build w. Poke Viktor is gonna be nerfed. 100%. The ult is also faster at minimum speed; barely even changed at maximum speed (There's a 10 pt difference compared to if you bought old Mk.III). As far as losing the shield stacks, it's a nerf but - like I said - it really isn't that big a deal unless you plan to be in the thick of it. Ie: Tank build. Personally, I can see support Viktor causing some serious problems. I also imagine we might see a serious nerf to our turbocharge MS buff and/or scaling. I should note that this buff looks cool, but there is no way in hell that this REDUCES oppressive Viktor builds. No way.
Rockman (NA)
: Why can't Viktor keep his mana shield.
Look, I played Viktor before the mana shield so I can take it either way. It IS cool to build pure mana/ap and tank up, but shieldTank Viktor defined the toplane meta for a while, there. Champion reworks SPECIFICALLY included shield-decaying abilities because of his prominence. That said, giving VIktor a free Rylais slow? This is gonna end SO badly. There is no way Viktor will be LESS problematic in top lane with a perma slow. :P
GreenLore (EUW)
: You always complain about how the lore got so tropey, but you know what?Everything is a trope. It's literally impossible to write a story without using tropes. The reason why the old lore didn't come off as so tropey is because it was so barebones and never fleshed out its locations or ina lot of cases even its characters, thats why you defined the locations from the old lore over its characters. And you are interpreting waaay too much into the old lore. I mean you say that Swain, in the new one, won't become more terrifying over time until his subjects turn against him, when something like that would have never happened in the old lore either(Kata and Talon were against him from the get go, because it was obvious that Swain had something to do with their fathers disapperance). You are filling the gaps in the old lore with your own headcanon, making it far deeper in your mind than it actually was.
Sure, if you want to get into semantics, everything is a trope. Even avoiding tropes. But that doesn't make Urgot or the lore that surrounds him any less shallow than it was 15 seconds ago. :P Swain, by contrast, was an evolving, moving, character. A plot device, too. Not everything has to be moving at once (talon and Kat not acting on suspicions is a strange thing to bring up), but there is a functional difference between old lore and new lore, in that regard. Growth and change defined it. Swain earned the admiration of his soldiers; the loyalty of his comrades. He was exiled, yet rose to kill the former Noxian leader and assume his place. Noxus changed. And all the while, as his allies grew in number, he became more frightening. Not just as a character - but to those who had reservations about him, in the first place. This is an example of good storytelling. Subtly paving the road for a story, that the base may reflect on it, afterwards. Like a trap door that opens beneath your feet. There is no equivalent to this in current lore. The Gangplank VS Miss Fortune affair was good. Clearly not the kind of thing Riot holds any vested interest in. More interest in conceptualising magic cats looking for friends. :P
GreenLore (EUW)
: Uhm the thing about Noxus in the new lore was that it did change the way you describe. The internal reform that you are missing so much already happened. And its simply fact that Darius and Swain are by no means good people, they are ultimately just a lighter shade of black compared to Boram darkwill, they did the exact reform that you were seeing in the old lore(though in the old one, it was never clear if Swain was any better than Boram or if he was even worse). And the black rose is unhappy with Swains reforms, they try to bring Noxus back onto its old course, hence why they have turned against Swain. Not to mention that Noxus has now an actual reason for attacking other nations besides being just "the war nation"(which is really all they were in the old lore), as their lands are barren and thus they are desperate for resources, especially since Swain anticipates Mordes return. ------------------------------------------------------ So you are pretty much defining demacia over 2 characters who are both beacons of justice and goodness and 1 character who had to follow her duty instead of going her own path? And J4 and Swains rivalry was epic because J4 fought against Swain like once, maybe twice, or what? --------------------------------------------------- Zaun had pretty much no defined culture in its original version other than being the crazy-science city that worked for Noxus. Janna was pretty much the only one that wasn't portrayed as evil(keep in mind that Viktor was certainly intended to be a villain considering it took a riot from his fans to retcon Jayces lore in which Viktor clearly acted like one) and she was never associated with the place after her origin story. She even took Piltovers side in a race between Zaun and Piltover, which was most likely done, because Janna was considered one of the good champs, so she had to be on the side of the good science-city... So yeah, no ideology shift was in sight as Janna was the only good zaunite and she never interacted with the city after her origin lore. ------------------------------------------------ Your post just highlights how little we knew about Piltover in the old lore. I mean seriously you say that someone like {{champion:222}} was defining for it?(I know you also mentioned C, but you are clearly projecting Jinxs motivation onto C as well, since Cs motivation was always a mystery) Jinx isn't even from Piltover and her actions were defining the place for you, just think about that.... Also as far as I know there was never a part where Singed glossed over Piltovers government(or where he interacted with Piltover at all). And Piltover having lost the last 4 zeppelin races against Zaun and then triumphing over them was honestly one of the biggest clichees of the whole lore, with Piltover beating the undefeated evil rival thanks to the power of the good champs, that honestly sounds like it could be from an episode of an old saturday morning cartoon. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In general I'm surprised about how much you are overlooking the ideology shifts in the new lore anyway. I mean the current Demacia story is all about how the whole "anti-magic"-movement of the country is tearing it apart from the inside, Ionias big theme has been for years now that its ideology is changing as a result of the noxus-war, Shurima is trying to reestablish itself and while Azir is more or less the current leader, there are also people like Taliyah(and obviously Xerath), who don't want Shurima to change like this and Urgot is actively working on tearing Zauns ruling class apart to cause anarchy.
Yes, Demacia has a writing 101: "I discriminate against [blank[" trope. Urgot is an anarchist and does anarchism because gosh he's such an anarchist (his character is his gimmick) Shurima is a self-contained side faction for people to adventure in if Riot feels like doing a flavour story (Sivir's a princess!). Vestaya are animal people from a mysterious far away place, smarter and wiser and stronger than humans and also magic. Ionia is generally ignored. The old lore genuinely chronicled Ionia's history and struggles more than new lore does. You're arguing as if I'm writing a love-letter towards the old lore. There are elements of both that are good. The former was more nuanced and emphasised growth. The latter spurns out character-specific side stories from a greater range of perspectives, rather than just through Demacia and Piltover. But I don't see any reality where someone could make the honest case that the quality of lore has improved in the wake of the retcon. It has been simplified down to the most basic and digestible of forms. It has its target audience and it's not hiding this. Like I said - we've all seen the ads. :P Noxus is gonna stay the bad guy, because that's more digestible. Swain won't become more and more terrifying over time until Darius or Katarina switches sides (or stages a coup), because that's too subtle. Instead, Lux will hang out with the other mage character and cry when Silas is sentenced to Death for reading books. And Silas will brush against her and explode his chains to do a escape. Because that's more digestible, and you don't need to change any characters or anything about Demacia to do it. Silas is now eternal magic rebel - forever wearing his shackles. Like Urgot, he is his trope. That's all of him.
GreenLore (EUW)
: I'm honestly trying to figure out if you are a troll or if you really believe in the stuff that you are writing here. Because I can't see how any of the current factions are less simplistic than the previous ones, where Noxus was just the evil empire, demacia was simply the good empire, ionia was the good empire, but also asian, Zaun was the faction for evil science while Piltover was the faction for good science and the Avarosans were the good Freljord-tribe. And the rest of the factions just existed and did basically nothing. There was literally zero nuance here. Demacia,the avarosans, Piltover and Ionia never did anything bad, Noxus and Zaun never did anything good.
Noxus was always super Darwinian, complicit in atrocities under the rule of a semi-immortal leader, but characters like Darius, Riven and Swain represented a desire for change. Noxus was too corrupt, ruthless or shortsighted, respectively. Noxus was bad. Not BECAUSE it was bad - but because it had to be for characters to want to effect change from within. And the lore was heading in that direction, for a time. **Now, Noxus is the evil empire.** They are unconcerned with internal reform. They're just the war nation. Kled would have been a nice touch if he had been an example of Noxus reluctantly overcoming its discrimination against Yordles. Instead, it turned out Kled has 'always been there'. - - - Demacia was pretty boring, characterised heavily by its war with Noxus. But the majority of League's lore was written through the perspective of its characters. Garen was a selfless bastion and was rubbing off on Katarina. Lux was traumatised and empty, alluding to the lack of choice people like her truly had to choose the direction of their lives. Jarvan exuded power and resolve; narrating Demacia's noble push to pacify its surrounding regions (being incorruptibly good can be fun if you are, say, wiping out dragons and demons). It's also worth noting that Swain and J4's rivalry was as gritty and cerebral as League's lore ever got. - - - Zaun was libertarian capitalism (nothing off-limits, provided you can pay your way). Piltover was liberal capitalism (regulated capitalism, like in most Western nations). Zaun was only portrayed 'evil' in the context of characters being hired by Noxus to murder stuff. Some awful stuff was happening in Zaun, but there wasn't really a governing body in the traditional sense. You paid for protection, there. You paid for security. And if you did that, you lived a pretty decent life. After all, there were bright eyed university students (Viktor), wrong-done environmentalists (Janna) and state celebrities (Mundo). Clearly dystopian. But definitely not the one-dimensional slum where poor people get experimented on, that it is now. And again, like Noxus - it had people on the inside working to redeem, defend or transform the city into something more in tune with their ideals. - - - Piltover was portrayed as 'good', because it maintained a sense of ethics and focused less on military application. It was commercial goods and advertisement. It was global problems and solutions. Theoretical scientists and charismatic heroes to the community. But phony. Oh so phony. It only beat Zaun in one scientific contest (which the lore implied was a big deal) and its brightest minds expressed bewilderment at the achievements of their Zaunite contemporaries. Their city was characterised, for a time, by flamboyant terrorists. The likes of Jinx and the burglar Caitlyn could never catch. These criminals came across as bored, lavishing in attention and the chaos they caused. Piltover glorified people who would always be more interesting than you, the consumer/the viewer. There was a sense of decay and urgency, as people like VIktor and singed brazenly ignored the supposed influence of the Piltovian government. And the government idly allowed it, giving rise to even more celebrity saviours - 'defenders of tomorrow' - - - Ionia was a victim fighting to retain its freedom. It was characterised by its crippling defeat - both through sheer military force, and chemical attack. Its former leaders were long dead, abandoned or actively negotiating surrender until Karma and Irelia stepped up in to fill the old guard's shoes. ------- You'll notice a theme, here. Every nation/city state was actively engaging with an ideology shift. This makes sense, considering that justice journals and character lore *generally* built on the existing story in a linear narrative fashion. New lore has discarded this effort, focusing mostly on self-contained, static, characteristics or tropes. The unchanging ideal.
: Someone who only plays league would never know Noxus is not evil
When the old lore was retconned, the quality dropped almost instantaneously. Sure, characters and factions were fleshed out - complete with paragraphs of flavour stories and info dumps. However, one-dimensional tropes replaced what were once mildly nuanced or non-committal character personalities (including in rework designs and VOs) and simplistic childlike morality/PoVs were used to - I assume - appeal to a wider market. Basically, Riot took already established ideas and then implemented a writing101 approach to them, giving people unnecessary and skin-deep flaws or zany tropes as a way of adding 'complexity' to an otherwise blatant: "This guy = bad guy, his faction = bad faction." Ie: Damacia is a beacon of hope and justice... but what if there's TOO much justice? Sometimes soldiers don't like it! Noxus is bad and preys on the weak... but look how strong they are! See? Now they're not totally bad! Zaun is full of criminals and terrorists... but citizens live there too! Everyone needs to make a living! Piltover is amazing and perfect... but gosh they sure are egotistical, right? And I mean, Zaun's underneath it now so rich people are probably being bad! etc. Not being condescending, but League ads are definitely aiming for really young kids. When it comes to a younger playerbase, simpler and tropier is considered better. It's just easier for them to digest.
Vartius (EUNE)
: Also, Full Machine wasn't part of that skinline. Most of the skins there are Full Metal, not Full Machine. FM Viktor is its own thing that got shoehorned into an unfitting skinline, and also shoehorned in another Jayce reference, because Viktor's only defining character trait apparently has to be his rivalty with Jayce. Great. Also the spanish... I like to believe that it wasn't meant to be a minority-with-low-wage-works joke and it was just about faulty programming, but... Why spanish of all languagues? Wouldn't something slavic make much more sense ? Still the bottom line is: it's a poorly executed joke either way.
> [{quoted}](name=Vartius,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=462aLfos,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-23T03:07:51.446+0000) > FM Viktor is its own thing that got shoehorned into an unfitting skinline, and also shoehorned in another Jayce reference, because Viktor's only defining character trait apparently has to be his rivalty with Jayce. Great. This part right here kills me the most. Viktor is a herald for a new age - one who shut themselves off from the day-to-day trivialities of society and who works towards a grand design. Someone who doesn't care for relationships or rivalries; such to the point that he makes choices that scare the general population (like when he took that hex crystal). Yet it seems like every single lore change, Viktor mains have to remind the story team that Jayce doesn't matter to him. He never did. This is an unrequited rivalry that Viktor considers, frankly, irrelevant. Much like his worshippers.
Opop (EUW)
: Please don't go with the PBE lore for Full Machine Viktor
Why is it that Riot can't touch VIktor without making him worse in some obscure way? I swear, if they had just stopped touching him after his first rework by Solcrushed (who was an absolute godsend), he would have been perfect. His bios keep getting dumber - replacing cool stories and themes with 'zany' robot villain/outcast tropes. Like a remedial writing class, I swear.
Wilyum (NA)
: Anyone else feel like trolling has increased?
It's been rising steadily for the past year or so. It may very well be due to the focus on a younger market.
: As far as I am concerned, the sexuality of any League character shouldn't really matter unless it matters. Having a character "identify" as a given sexuality should only matter if their sexuality is inherent to their character, like Miss Fortune, Evelynn, or even Taric. Telling us "champion is lesbian" does nothing except make the champion divisive between conservative and progressive players when that champ's sexuality won't even be expressed in the game. Like, if you WANT her character interactions to HINT at it, fine. Dumbledore was never stated as being gay in Harry Potter because his sexuality had no effect or bearing on the story, but people could infer that maybe he was by small hints in his actions and personality, allowing people to interpret him how they want. And really, that's the best thing you can do for a character; write them in such a way that they can be interpreted differently by different people, allowing them to have some intrigue and holding interest to a wider audience because people will read into their behaviors differently based on their own tastes. And when a character has multiple interpretations, it makes them even more colorful and gives them a broader, more nuanced personality. Given that "color" was supposed to be the main theme of the new champ, I think just having a creator just blithely label her as "lesbian" is more of a disservice to both the character and her future players than a service.
I think that's the point, though. Sexuality shouldn't be divisive. If the response really WAS 'who cares?', then there'd be no backlash for it as a trivia point. Imagine that there was a stigma against certain family lineages in the US (Interesting trivia: This is a real thing in Japan). Certain areas in the country are populated with these people as a result of them being social pariahs, resulting in certain areas becoming sort've unseemly, or weird. League makes no real effort to throw out stereotypical version of these people, but - whether for reasons of inclusive diversity, or just because it fits the idea in their head - decides to note in a trivia point that a certain character is from a certain part of Runeterra that is obviously based on those unseemly parts of society. Just a footnote. Would backlash to this be any less justified to backlash to a person's sexual preference? I used to have the mindset of 'why make them gay if there's no REASON for it?!', but upon reflection realized that was kind of dumb. Why make a person blonde for no reason? Or make them enjoy using yoyos? Why have them secretly have hopes and dreams that are never expanded upon? Sometimes things just are. And sometimes things are, because they're purposely made to be. But even if someone's purposely made gay.... so what? Why is 'lesbianism' considered a disservice? Would it help if she were given a girlfriend to interact with on the regular? I think that'd make the people 'offended' by this stuff even angrier. =P
: Look at dat swagger Viktor walking animation update
I don't have twitter, so I can't say it myself, but has anybody suggested an augment effect where, based on Vik's current Augment, the staff splurts out sparks from the hex core, or static from the base of his staff, every couple of steps? Because that would be absolutely rad.
: Look at dat swagger Viktor walking animation update
God damn that's pretty. Viktor pacing from place to place with total resolve. That's the strut of a Cyborg ready to change the world.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Anagram King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iB85E024,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-28T08:25:28.445+0000) > > Viktor's scaling shouldn't be focused around surviving longer than the average game length in order to become relevant. > > That is awful design. > > That said, he doesn't even scale to be unstoppable. He's disgustingly team-reliant for somebody who is supposed to become some kind've fabled late-game hypercarry. He's best played as a tanky bruiser, these days. And this is how you answer properly. Thank you. I do agree that having to survive longer than the average game length is horrible design. But what if we'd finally increase the average game length instead of buffing a champions damage? Wouldn't that be better overall, looking at Azir (who is only "weak" because the games are too short these days) and other champions in a similar spot?
I'd argue that it's easier to bring Vik in line with his lane opponents (or compensate him for floundering against them), than artificially lengthening game time. :P
: > [{quoted}](name=XBionicX,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iB85E024,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-28T08:04:10.541+0000) > > Because he doesnt have a lane phase? The most important thing right now? So a lategame carry is supposed to have a great earlygame as well. Gotcha
Viktor's scaling shouldn't be focused around surviving longer than the average game length in order to become relevant. That is awful design. That said, he doesn't scale to be unstoppable. He's disgustingly team-reliant for somebody who is supposed to become some kind've fabled late-game hypercarry. He's best played as a tanky bruiser, these days.
darkdill (NA)
: Is it required that Viktor's Hex Core take up an item slot?
No. Is it required that Viktor have a hex based passive at all? Not really. But it's something his fanbase likes; it's something that is super cost efficient; and it's something that can be tweaked in different ways (and to an arguably greater effect) than a non-item passive can. And that's unique.
: Honestly, id rather that other mages were brought to his standards. I still miss the days when people had to care about how they used their mana
I so agree. Feels like most champions earn their waveclear by level 3, while we're stuck carefully setting up minion hp so we can get the cs under the turret. :P
: Viktor has a lot of bad-ish matchups. He's no where near as safe as someone like Ori or Malz.
That's fair, but you can hit your abilities much easier than an Ori or Malz, can. If you manage to dodge that silence or one of Ori's Q+Ws and get up in their face, you've likely stolen half their hp. I'm not saying he's overwhelming, but once you have the HP advantage and are denying space for the enemy to farm, It takes a bit of effort to turn things back around. Things like that could be one potential reason why Riot is so careful about buffing him.
: Thoughts on Viktor?
It honestly feels like Viktor isn't really "weak", so much as he is gated. He's gated by mana, he's gated by gold and he's gated by his augment's scaling mechanisms. And if you play him a lot, you probably know what I"ll say next, already -- it's *really* hard to get yourself into a genuinely bad matchup. His shield wins trades, his stun punishes ganks, his E clears waves. He's vicious. He can bully. He can carry. He can solo-lane. **But he's gated.** * If you bully, your mana runs dry - you have to supplement your poke with lots of autos. * If you try to passively farm, you can easily come out behind - your E doesn't clear until you buy yourself an augment, and - as above - comes with exorbitant mana costs. * If you build for late, you're building against common sense - most matches are over by around 30 minutes. **Is it really any wonder Viktor's struggling to find his niche in this meta?** The mage item changes are good. They did a lot for his mid-game, and synergise well with his shield. But as you point out above, he generally has to wait longer to get them. I mean, Vik's Augment rocks when fully upgraded - there's no doubt about it - but we're talking a scaling item TIED to his abilities with a stat value and cost **comparable to an archangel's staff** (sans the 20% cdr). This IS an issue. Vik's augment (or its effects) **needs** an extra _something_ to it. Stronger stats? Better utility? Something else entirely? He moves slowly, his abilities all have significant delays on their effects and - to top it off - come lategame - there are other champions that will out-scale him despite all the sacrifices he makes to have his mega kit. He NEEDS something. Not necessarily a *huge* something, but definitely something. He's supposed to evolve to fit his circumstance - not struggle early so he can maximise burst potential later. :P
Biotic (NA)
: Running a sorcery and precision/domination(inspiration would be even lower) mastery page, viktor’s shield at: level 1 absorbs 32 dmg———given a 2nd Doran’s ring only increases that to 35 The normal backing level for viktor is around levels 5 and 6(most likely the latter). If we level q>e>q>w>q>r assuming you want to a q-maxing viktor, then the shield only absorbs 53 damage and because you need your first augment you are not given the option to buy an amp time or any additional app because then your digging your own grave by not affording yourself your first augment At 5 points in q at level 11 no items he mitigates 77 dmg and with a fully augmented hexcore, sorc shoes, and lichbane after ten minutes he mitigates 129 dmg(current mana right now is 1117 getting 275 from hex core and 250 from lichbane) ****note this is already past the point where he needs to cross his 1250 goldgate At full build(hexcore, rylais, lichbane, deathcap, sorc shoes, and void staff) level 18, 1764 mana, viktor’s shield absorbs 255 dmg At a full mana build(hexcore, sorc shoes, lichbane, Morelos, archangels staff(maxed mana), hextech glp) his shield absorbs 386 dmg without using archangel active——a build beyond me why anyone would run——3564 mana after 30 minutes Some people might say that different runes will lead to way different results but all of them should be relatively similar because the shield is only equal to 8% mana meaning that any mana difference is relatively giving the same shield or within 20 at most Also viktor is not a bruiser——at level 18 using the first build I stated he has 2259 hp getting a 150 shield which may sound like a lot but at full build 50 mins, 2259 night as well be 1000 with a full build vayne, veiger, nasus, twitch, talon etc TL:DR——dunno where you got the 400 shield number from——viktor is a control mage(like cassieopia) not a bruiser(Darius, jayce)——how can you make trades and never have mana problems(never laned against ekko, azir, leblanc, vladimir, lissandra, never have had heimerdinger push the wave in as fast as they arrive?)——how will having a 70 dmg shield improve landing against someone such as ekko or vlad at the cost of half your q dmg His q functionality is fine and fits his role as a burst mage......the problem lies in being unable to be relevant without his 1st hexcore largely because of the advantage that champs like ahri and xerath get from being able to build their core from 900 gold(not very fun to hold up in lane with no items while ori comes back with a lost chapter and her and lee sin pressure you into turret killingyou and leaving you with 1150 gold)
Back up a sec. You keep saying 'half' q damage. Are you assuming Vik's Q is being halved in strength? That he's getting an extra shield INSTEAD of doing damage? Cause... I don't think that's what's happening. :P --- --- Again, I'm not feeling the crippling mana issues. I last hit minions with a dorans; I poke through waves with a laser (trying to hit the enemy champ where possible). I only exhaust my mana in all ins, or teamfights, or whatever. Would I accept a mana buff? Duh. But I'll take any and all Viktor buffs. You're overselling how horrible it is to play the Herald in a meta where 4-7 lasers means a kill on the enemy laner (or, failing that, an early recall). I mean, I LOVE Rammus jungle, because you always see him coming. Lee's more tricky, but if he's diving you on the turret, then - in my experience - it's more likely a kill for you, than them. Unless you're absurdly low and just hanging around for that augment back. I assume this is what you're talking about. That you feel **Compelled** to hang around and afford that first augment. Sometimes I just ignore the augment and go rylais or void. The damage is better, the control is better. Not to mention, with a Rylai, you can invade the enemy jungle like a real jerk. --- You nearly hit 400 with your mana build. In your example, Vik would be theoretically capable of throwing out a mean 386 pt shield, every 1..2 seconds (assuming you perfectly timed the q and discharge at max cd). That's a potential 772 extra hp every 2.4 seconds. Before the rune changes, I built Rod of Ages, muramana, archangel, trinity/iceborn and Rabadon. I hit 40% cdr, something like 800 AP, 250-ish AD, 4k-ish Mana and somewhere near 3k health. Things DISINTEGRATED on both q hits. But that wasn't the best part - nuh uh. The best part of it all was that Udyrs were less tanky than me. Rivens were less tanky than me. Wukongs.... well... wukongs could ruin my day. But for the *most* part, Vik was tankier than top laners. If I was tanking 800+ damage every 2.4 seconds, I mean... he could *already* solo baron. :P Now granted, old runes are gone. As is my build. It's much harder to build tanky when you don't have runes to fill in the gaps. But Vik's shields are insane. And DOUBLING those shields means a potentially bad time for the enemy laner. Zeds in particular are gonna loathe me. This far supersedes a 150-250 gold reduction on augment purchase price because of Lee Sin turret ganks. In my view, at least. You do you though. I'm all for this buff. :P
Biotic (NA)
: Sure it might allow him to allocate his shield viability but this issue will not affect his transition into the mid game. With more one shot early pressure champions, such as Zoe and Kayn, along with reworks that develop the unique idea of an effective jg but also apply a huge threat to midlane which become seemingly unavoidable and are cause for instadeath and huge setbacks due to lack of viktor augmentation(warwick, evelynn), Options only convolute Viktor’s situation. The shield idea is good on paper but in game most players will still find that any pressure in lane that is cause for denying you’re first augment and those first 40-45 most important cs (try to put pressure an azir and out scale him in lategame especially after one death———this goes with many other champions as well such as kassadin) are inadvertently throwing away there entire team’s mid game macroplay. Viktor’s weakness comes from: (1)the idea that he is a control mage that has to follow his enemy into the team to efficiently combo(q and ult—e has some range but can be taken advantage of by any mobility——also that’s why they have the delay) and (2)the lack of any mobility or instant cc to peel ganks and trades off of him He is the only midlaner that suffers who has a gold gate as far as 1250 and he shouldn’t have to dig a grave for his team if that is taken advantage in the simplest of ways. I don’t know how many times this preseason I have been flamed for being flash rammus q’d and Zoe e’d making me have to buy boots and and amp tome so I can be able to clear creep which ends up allowing Zoe to free roam Edit: I’d also like to point out that in nerfing mana flow band they are crippling his lane pressure identity and along with the the fact that it cripples Viktor’s csing capabilities(even harder to transfer to late game) maxing q would not be viable in keeping viktor in the laning phase or transitioning to mid game. Coupled with the idea that it only effects not using the empowered AA, the new shield change only rewards using half of his q dmg potential. I’m not asking for a full hex core price revert, I just want it lowered in some manner(down to 1150 would be better than this buff), not giving me shield allocation options when I usually don’t even think about his sub-par shield mechanic Allocate: how something is assigned/distributed to a particular object or in a particular scenario
Well, I mean, early game viability diRECTLY translates into mid game viability when the gate stopping you from doing so is a perceived 250 gold barrier. =p I play him a bunch; and I'm very much aware that if I'm restacking my Q on laser discharge, I am going to walk away from trades near full health, early on. You're sincerely underestimating the effectiveness of a shield reapplication on-strike. You don't have to worry about taking that punch as you chase someone down. When they turn to counter you with a q or whatever, you'll **undoubtedly win the trade.** That's a big deal. ---- ---- That said, no - this doesn't address all of Vik's problems. You're right that he's been conditioned towards a 'teamfight' mage role, instead of the solo monster he once was, but this little shield feature is a neat pivot in the right direction. Minion farming under turret will be easier at low levels (you can soak damage). Tanking/off-tanking objectives will be easier, too, should the situation call for it. It's generally just an improvement to Vik's quality of life AND, furthermore, in my own opinion... ... **WAY** better than a 150 gold reduction on his first augment purchase. :P --- As for the edit - I don't even USE manaflow band. So I can't relate to that. I've never felt constrained in mana when playing Vik. But, then again, he's always been mana heavy. I know it's super pretentious to assume that everyone who doesn't play Vik the way I do, aren't doing it right; but I think you're focusing on a minor issue, here. Vik isn't weak because his augment price went up. He's weak because he's been shoehorned into a ill-fitting role, reliant on {{item:3116}} {{item:3100}} {{item:3089}} multiple items due to the fact that his abilities have been timed AND tuned to work with them. He doesn't have the room he once had to build with a little bit of versatility. You are one thing. And you're often forced to play that one thing - a backup burst mage. Until the mage update, you could play him as a bruiser. Now? Not so easily. Giving him sticking power is an insane buff. Dolling out TWO 400-pt shields means insane bruiser potential. You're underselling this thang. And for what? A 150 gold decrease? Nuh uh. No thanks. But I'll take both, if Riot gives em. :P
: That would at least make things more fun and interesting, but the explosion would have to commence right as you die. But it couldn't happen immediately cause you would need a little leeway for the enemy champs to get a chance to get away. But it could still happen relatively quickly so that they have to leave asap or they'll get punished.
Give it an orianna ult suck in effect!! Maybe too much. :P
: Viktor's Ult
Personally, I'd love it if it did something different - like overload, then explode, after a delay. It would be neat for the chaos storm to cause a little bit of... chaos after Viktor's death.
Biotic (NA)
: Viktor buffs for 8.3/8.4 don’t address viktor’s current problems
I'm a Viktor player. I've been playing Viktor since like 3 months after release. I joined because I SAW Viktor, saved up my IP, bought him second (after Kayle), and have 'Mained" him ever since. I still totally remember what he was like back then; and what hooked me on his kit. It wasn't cheap augment costs - it was his weird (but effective) kit flow, and the reliability of the tools at his disposal. The ability to buy the augment that increased you movement speed made you terrifying in top lane (even though the stats were kiind've lame). The ability to buy the augment that caused your laser to burn enemies over time made you a **monster** in mid lane. The tools did it. Not the stats. Not the related costs (you earned lots of gold anyways, being that you pushed down waves and respectably picked up kills). You thought about the matchup and the stuff you had at your disposal; and you devastated the enemy through superior lane presence. I loved that. Viktor reapplying shields gives you a tool SPECIFICALLY for poking out your enemy. It makes Q-maxing a viable choice again. You can now choose whether to bully an enemy, or pressure the lane. It gives him options. OPTIONS. And this is a good direction, since the Mage Update where he was shoehorned into being a Rylai rusher with low damage. This is something I really like the look of. I worry it might be overtuned---but lane tools and cool ability perks are exactly the kind of stuff I want to see in Vik's arsenal.
: [Opinion] Urgot's rework is dope, but...
I will concede - The anarchy thing in Urgot's new lore is... weird.
: Agreed. I really can't believe they changed him from a traditional bursty-controlly mage, a one who was actually seeing success, into more about 'DPS'. Except they also lowered his DPS because you aren't going to hit those delay spells unless you draft a lockdown team comp. Even in a lockdown team comp, wouldn't Orianna or a champion with PRIMARY CC (Orianna/Syndra/Anivia/Brand/Annie/Veigar) be better? Rather than one who must rely on their team to lock the enemy down. Ori/Syndra/Anivia/Brand etc. can lay down the AoE but they can also help start the wombo-combo.. I think it's clear to see that Riot looked at Viktor and felt that he did everything. Oh, he is long range, bursty, DPS, control mage, "safe" (he was never even close to being safe in solo queue with Blitzcranks/Leonas running around). Can't have that. IMO he was just good, not OP, he could've been nerfed with ratio changes or extra mana gating. Instead of changing his shtyle... The thing is, Viktor has been a complete noob-trap for a while now. He was far under average for the entirety of season 7. I cringe when I see people pick him because he's just bad. A husk of what he was in season 5. I just want to reiterate how reliant Viktor is on Rabadons+Void Staff. The price hikes really, really, really hurt him.
I honestly stopped building him solid AP burst after the RicklessAbandon changes. I went heavy hybrid + mana. Muramana, Trinity, Archangel, Rod of Ages, Rabadon. Made his shield strong enough, that he could survive fights. Made his damage sustainable enough, that he could do what the changes were supposed to make him do. It was still kind've lacklustre, but I saw more success. And it was gimmicky, which was neat. The new mastery system sort've ruined that. I can't even bring myself to want to play him anymore. It's awful - I've been "main"ing him since release. I've no idea what they were thinking. They fixed him with that first change. It was good. They had already SUCCEEDED. It's kind've demoralising. =p
: Viktor is absolutely trash right now
I totally called this when the mage update happened. When RicklessAbandon shifted his kit to be RELIANT on Rylais + Damage over time, it was absolutely obvious that Viktor would end up in a bad place. Now entirely reliant on defensive poke, he became a wave-pusher. And so they nerfed that because it wasn't interactive enough. And then they nerfed the core items he's forced to buy (either through price, or raw power). It's absolutely insane. Solcrushed, when he reworked Viktor the first time, got it very nearly perfect. The BEST rework up until the Sion changes. And in one (minor) mage update, it was all turned to ash. Lame. Very lame.
: Wrote a Viktor Analysis that I thought I would share
Individualism isn't better than collectivism. It's just different. If people want to be co-dependent, and work on common goals rather than trivial personal problems, then it's the next logical step, yes? I mean, I identify with aspects of collectivism. We all do, to an extent. True freedom means murdering for fun > laws that curtail murder. Viktor overriding divers when they begin to freak out is hardly slavery. Jayce is absolutely, undeniably, in the wrong. It's practically black and white. I mean, assuming the divers regain control of their suits and stuff when they calm down. :P Regardless, Viktor's pretty individualistic, anyway. He clearly thinks that people should be able to do things they want to do, regardless of what others think about them. I get a somewhat Ubermenscht (personal transcendence of 'herd' morality) vibe from his short story. And I think that's neat. The thing that DID irk me about his new lore is not who VIktor is, but all the development cut away from him. He didn't have an epiphany and change his outlook after his view of society crumbled around him. He did not crave revenge, then suppress his 'bad' feelings. Frankly, one would wonder why he even suppressed his feelings at all. Seems stupid. The way the lore is presented just seems... dumb. Viktor was always a bit on the spectrum, so one day he turned himself into a robot. Neat. Sort've lamer than the old lore made him out to be. :P
Salron (NA)
: "I'm going to waste my time just to keep someone in a game because I don't like their attitude"
He probably still wants to play. Surrendering for ONE player is a favour, not an obligation. If OP's going to be a jerk, why do him the favour? Remember, this guy's complaining that the REST of the team won't surrender. At least 2/5ths. His opinion isn't > team opinion.
: Why play league if you're only interested in a single game mode that rotates, and is more so a "special event" game mode, it's rare that it comes around, so playing league solely for that game mode is pointless
That's a weird point of view. I should only play one game mode, and pick the game mode that isn't URF?
: Because then it loses it's magic. In fact, it already has. It's such an overhyped game mode that it's disappointing when it comes around anymore. Not to mention that certain champs are essentially an automatic win. Such as Shen and Maokai. It doesn't matter if it's all random, because no matter what happens, some champions are better than others in URF and there's almost nothing you can do about it. I still play it but I definitely believe it's not nearly as fun as the first 2 times it came around. People have created a meta around it so you can't do what you want to do which is what URF was all about, coming up with dumb ideas and seeing how they would work. The other night, some guy got flamed for playing AP Sivir. I may not agree that it's any good, but it's what he wanted to test out and he got yelled at the entire game for it. Like every game mode in League, the community has ruined it. URF is nothing special anymore and the only reason it generates any hype and gets played is because it doesn't come around very often.
I haven't seen it come around in ages. We're getting worse versions. Of course it's losing its magic. :P That said, I'd probably play it nonstop. I adore URF. Original URF, with picks and bans. ARURF, not so much.
noukinn (NA)
: Sure is fun getting held hostage by chimps, least I can try and pad my stats in the meantime
I win matches from inhibitors all the time. I try my very best to duo with players with a better attitude than the one you've got.
Rioter Comments
: The URF isn't even that enjoyable this time around, sadly. I do get a ridiculous amount of joy seeing the poros fly across the screen, but the matches are so one-side (like normal games are now, YAY!) that it's just not any more enjoyable. Although, I have had URF games last longer than normals regularly...
Totally. The poros aren't bad. Would be neat to have the option to change the flash, or maybe even switch out the poro for regular teleports if that's more your style, but the gamemode feels sort've dry, too. If one game mode is sapping the popularity of your other game modes simply by existing, it stands to reason that THAT game mode is marketable beyond measure. My first instinct would be to abuse the heck out of URF - not hide and neuter it. But that's just me.
: I don't like this URF at all. So I don't play it. normal ARURF is better and I prefer URF.
I loved original URF on the Summoner's Rift. I also see a few people asking for a kill count game mode on the Crystal Scar. I'd probably like that as well. :P
: where did you read that? riot simply stated they lost allot of players when urf ends, n where can I remember it saying they quitting because they like urf soo muh
I don't think there's another explanation, is there? It's definitely what makes me leave afterwards. I'm sure some people could decide they don't like league because an URF game goes sourly, maybe. But that wouldn't account for many.
: What's your ideal game length?
I wanna sit down and commit to an hour-long game. You didn't give me any voting options though.
Rioter Comments
: Changing ARURF
My vote goes for an UNbalancing team to buff all the non OP champs. Soraka heals are free, Yasuo gets his tornado with 1 less q, twitch poison stacks to infinity, Trundle's bite stacks on himself AND his target, Shaco box cap removed, Ashe slow stacks, Viktor's stun fields stack separately from one another, etc, etc. That's be neat. I want more chaos. Not less.
: URF with a ten ban system won't change anything really. The fact is just that the S+ tier of URF characters are so far removed from even the S or S- tier champions that the game becomes an absolute shitshow if you allow people to pick them. And no, guy who is going to come respond to my comment with "Well I -like- playing subpar champions in ARAM", I don't believe you for a second and those situations often end with a lost game because someone picked Vlad or Fizz and made left hell. Just make URF All random and unlock all champions for it because as it turns out, ARAM accounts on URF don't function too poorly.
> And no, guy who is going to come respond to my comment with "Well I -like- playing subpar champions in ARAM", I don't believe you for a second and those situations often end with a lost game because someone picked Vlad or Fizz and made left hell. I LOVE playing champs like Viktor, Shaco and Urgot. Admittedly, old Urgot was utterly insane when he could spam homing missiles, but the point still stands that there are people like me who love to take champs that we *like* into URF; and we *like* fighting the op champs. Not ALL the time, obviously - cos I want some diversity, here - but seeing Hecarim spin his scythe around the battlefield like a madman, or Heimer just LAY WASTE to anything to come within melee range of him, or really, anything like that-- --ANYTHING like that-- --is fun. It's URF. I like it. Gimme that URF. Split up the URF types, if you have to. I'll play the broken one and get stomped and love every minute of it. Bans'd be nice, but I don't care if 1 or 2 op champs get through every game. ;p
: Every time when new URF comes it feels less and less fun...
+1 I played this game mode 4 times, realised something was off with the champ pool, checked to see if any champs were discluded (turns out lots are), and then realised I didn't wanna play anymore. I LOVED 2014 URF. More than any other game mode, ever. And now I can't even bring myself to queue for it.
: Does Riot actually care about anything besides money?
ssfxd (NA)
: Boards now: why didn’t Riot just make a new champ into a darkin instead of changing varus. Boards few months ago: Varus is probably a darkin, yeah he is a darkin. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
Probably a bubbling soup effect. Knowing the answer before the unveiling gives you an awful lot of time to think about it. =p
: Why Varus's new lore was doomed to fail.
I honestly have no connection to Varus, though I did find great amusement in the way it was handled. Particularly because, as you so succinctly pointed out, the weapon corrupting and killing Varus was ALREADY a part of his story. ... Why not just let him die, and provide a legacy skin? It would be the very FIRST champion whose lore finished in order to give way to the new Lore era. His original story arc would be complete. Chapter 1: End. Chapter 2.... It writes itself. Nonetheless, it's been interesting to watch people talk about this. I always sort've hover around the boards whenever there's a controversy. It's fun to see what kind of thoughts bubble to the surface. And I *like* this particular collection of thoughts. Kudos. And I hope that the Varus mains get some kind of treat. Because this was a mean thing for Riot to do. Well, probably more callous, than mean. But I digress.
: No he was slated early because his kit was bonkers with half being ap and other being ad. Also even then people complained about old sions kit being changed.
: Arnold Schwartzeneggar zombie with a axe is not a character. It's basicly a shitty character archetype like how old pantheon was shitty spartan archetype
That's probably the reason why he was slated so early for a lore update. What do you think you're arguing? =P
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The Anagram King

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