: > [{quoted}](name=Toxic Control,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RzNGV85T,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-07T13:45:22.511+0000) > > Now we can argue that ER did the same thing and nobody was truly broken with that item - but the thing is that ER granted no bulk and restored mana on hit, meaning half of the stats and effects the item gave out were utterly wasted one these champs. > Spear throws that idea out the window. Now it's a bruiser item mitigating all of a bruiser's weaknesses immediately on buy - it may be expensive, but you cover all your early game bases with the item: health for your early bulk, AD to do damage, and your cooldowns are effectively rendered irrelevant. I largely thought the same at first, but a closer inspection proves this wrong. Old essence reaver cost 3000g New spear of shojin costs 3400g Further, old essence reaver gave 75AD. New spear gives 60AD. Finally, old ER gave 0 health New spear gives 250 health So even if we entirely ignore the mana aspect of old essence reaver: Gold cost is up 400 Ad value is down 525 Health value is up 667 Net effect: 400+525-667= 258 That's to say, if AD and Health are valued equally and mana is worth nothing, the item was nerfed by 258g. Further: Since the new item costs more, it will delay your completion of it (longer downtime before the Champions become super powered), and it will delay the completion of every other complete item in their build (if they rush it, they'll get Trinity 400g later, they'll get their defensive items 400g later, etc...). However since it's more slot efficient (250hp is worth more than 15AD, especially on these Champions) they will be stronger at full build. This is the only real argument to have against the change. Now with all of that said: essence reaver was indeed beyond busted on these guys, and spear will remain busted on them. It is a problem and needs to be addressed. However don't act like this made it worse - it is a nerf to the item so the balance team aren't complete idiots. They're moving in the right direction.
> [{quoted}](name=ValyrianBlade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RzNGV85T,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-07T16:12:47.888+0000) > > I largely thought the same at first, but a closer inspection proves this wrong. > > Old essence reaver cost 3000g > New spear of shojin costs 3400g > > Further, old essence reaver gave 75AD. > New spear gives 60AD. > > Finally, old ER gave 0 health > New spear gives 250 health > > So even if we entirely ignore the mana aspect of old essence reaver: > Gold cost is up 400 > Ad value is down 525 > Health value is up 667 > > Net effect: 400+525-667= 258 > > That's to say, if AD and Health are valued equally and mana is worth nothing, the item was nerfed by 258g. > > Further: > Since the new item costs more, it will delay your completion of it (longer downtime before the Champions become super powered), and it will delay the completion of every other complete item in their build (if they rush it, they'll get Trinity 400g later, they'll get their defensive items 400g later, etc...). > > However since it's more slot efficient (250hp is worth more than 15AD, especially on these Champions) they will be stronger at full build. This is the only real argument to have against the change. > > Now with all of that said: essence reaver was indeed beyond busted on these guys, and spear will remain busted on them. It is a problem and needs to be addressed. However don't act like this made it worse - it is a nerf to the item so the balance team aren't complete idiots. They're moving in the right direction. Here is the thing though. NO one was buying ER because of 15 more AD... they were buying it solely for the passive. Spear is that passive + 667 gold worth of hp..... for 400 more gold. The -15 AD is effectually irrelevant because tthe champs that abuse it STILL 100-0 you during the 6 second window much of that during CC. 15 less AD doesn't make you any less dead. Can you seriously think of a situation where a Riven/Renekton/Yi/Ect is going to look at their AD stat and go... "whelp I can't kill this guy, gotta farm another 15 ad first."
Rioter Comments
: Patch 9.2 notes
Yo Riot. Read this shit or just remove your comment section. I scrolled down for PAGES and not a single positive comment. There just might just be a GD reason you know?
: EXP Changes (Something is not right here...)
Riots attempt to prevent jungle agency.... and (like always) backfired and just created a meta were only jungles that gank at 2 and never stop ganking get anywhere. Which just makes laning even more GD annoying than it already is.
: Riot's need for everything to "Feel good" is their biggest design problem.
The issue is now you can't look at a tower without it cramming gold up your ass, and even the most brain dead player can collect 2k+ worth of bounties in a team fight and jump straight past mid game to late game.
Bârd (NA)
: Riot, if you want money, there are a lot of things we'd be willing to buy...
Sorry but they aren't getting a red cent from me until the "one shot, or be one shot" meta ends.
: But but. If assassins have counterplay how will they be able to assassin :c In all honesty fuck this entire class
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qrpqfOhE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-31T06:25:21.087+0000) > > But but. If assassins have counterplay how will they be able to assassin :c > > In all honesty fuck this entire class By playing like they did in earlier seasons? IE 60-0'ing people?
Ataraxas (NA)
: Apparently I was "attacking" someone?
Long story show Gameplay+ is only for kiss asses that 100% support every mistake Riot makes. It's also the only board Riot reads now. Thus the shit state of the game.
20022012 (EUNE)
: Nice strawman. What I said was that in any consistent system the relation to the outside world is irrelevant, and all relations in the consistent system are deemed to be consistent itself. Unless you're trying to ridicule the whole field of mathematics, of course, but then you're not only a low rank discussing balance, but a layman discussing science.
> [{quoted}](name=20022012,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=001b00000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-24T15:44:21.143+0000) > > Nice strawman. > > What I said was that in any consistent system the relation to the outside world is irrelevant, and all relations in the consistent system are deemed to be consistent itself. > > Unless you're trying to ridicule the whole field of mathematics, of course, but then you're not only a low rank discussing balance, but a layman discussing science. Except you are looking at one system that directly conflicts with an outside and generally more accepted system to try and disprove that system.
: Riot just nerfed the baron buff and buffed the inhibitor and nexus towers
They don't have everything ready because they wasted a crap ton of resources on the terrible failed Nexus Shitz gamemode.
20022012 (EUNE)
: Since the fact that: a) op.gg doesn't have champion deaths or damage taken statistics b) you cannot invalidate relational statistics even from a system that is deemed to represent something less accurately or inaccurately if the process of creating probabilities, expected values and distributions is mathematically correct. In a system, 2+2 could be 5, and 3+2 could also be 5. The relation between these two hold if they are matematically correct, even if in some other system the values and conclusions might not be correct. That's why no matter how innacurate champion.gg is, if it is mathematically correct and uses real data from the game, the relation between death rates will hold. You should have known that if you used the "op.gg is the only site worth considering" argument against me again. So I guess better luck next time to you too?
> [{quoted}](name=20022012,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=001b000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-24T02:36:13.618+0000) > > Since the fact that: > a) op.gg doesn't have champion deaths or damage taken statistics > b) you cannot invalidate relational statistics even from a system that is deemed to represent something less accurately or inaccurately if the process of creating probabilities, expected values and distributions is mathematically correct. In a system, 2+2 could be 5, and 3+2 could also be 5. The relation between these two hold if they are matematically correct, even if in some other system the values and conclusions might not be correct. That's why no matter how innacurate champion.gg is, if it is mathematically correct and uses real data from the game, the relation between death rates will hold. You should have known that if you used the "op.gg is the only site worth considering" argument against me again. > > So I guess better luck next time to you too? So let me sum up what you said. "Fact doesn't matter as long as their system says so." You should work for Riot. :)
: Seriously though, Where is Pykes punish window?
The same solution to every other problem at the moment. Do more damages and cc's that they do. That's why we have an insta gib version of league. All strategy has been replaced with "one shot them before they one shot you." It's sad but look at any "How do you counter X" post. The answer is always. > Errrm..well..err guys... yeah.. you just.. ermm.. like... > CC AND KILL'EM! Be sure to say that last part with the voice of Nappa in your head.
: ALL ABOARD THE HYPE TRAIN TO HELL. CC COMPLAINTS NOW. FIRST ITS TANKS BEING TANKY. THEN ADCS BEING OP. THEN SUPPORTS BEING OP. THEN ASSASSINS/DAMAGE TOO OP AND NOW ITS TOOOOO MUCH CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC.
> [{quoted}](name=hewhodoesnotcare,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eFceyvvF,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-23T14:02:06.394+0000) > > ALL ABOARD THE HYPE TRAIN TO HELL. CC COMPLAINTS NOW. FIRST ITS TANKS BEING TANKY. THEN ADCS BEING OP. THEN SUPPORTS BEING OP. THEN ASSASSINS/DAMAGE TOO OP AND NOW ITS TOOOOO MUCH CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC. Yeh that's cause a lot of things are shit right now. But it's all an issue with there being too much damage. CC is too strong because damage is too high. One cc hits, any champ explodes. & True damage is too strong because it invalidates defensive options. True damage in general has the same issue as above. We currently live in a meta where defensive itemization is pointless and generally playing a tank is unfun. Also playing adc is unfun. Jungles hate the damn incoming changes, mage mids feel stepped on by mage bot support who get nearly as much gold as they do without having to cs.. enchanters are irreverent and generally speaking no one is happy about the state of things other than mage sups.
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: Considering xerath's kit consists of dodgable spells, its only natural getting stunned will lead to you getting heavily damaged. Besides come on now, hitting a long range stun is nigh impossible if the enemy has eyes.
> [{quoted}](name=VanaQuish,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eFceyvvF,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-01-23T18:23:57.255+0000) > > Considering xerath's kit consists of dodgable spells, its only natural getting stunned will lead to you getting heavily damaged. Besides come on now, hitting a long range stun is nigh impossible if the enemy has eyes. Again people seem to ignore half of each post. It's the combination of Xerath and Jhin that make it strong. Even faker was never able to dodge EVERY single skill shot lol. If anything in that lane touches you at any past 6 the only thing that saves you is just leaving lane or a couple supports that likely you won't have. If one use of Jhin ulti hits, Xerath ulti kills you due to the slow. If a luden's proc hits you trying to farm and jhin W hits, you die. If one use of xerath ulti hits you jhin W is deadly. Ect ect. Even playing safe and dodging god damn everything in solo queue where you can't count on jungle help, or really even having a decent support.. you'll still suffer on CS. Even playing perfectly it doesn't much matter if your support feeds them either.
: Outnumbering someone to kill them is technically counterplay but not a good design at all, and when most people say counterplay they mean what can you do by yourself to counter a mechanic or ability or make it less effective. Vayne's W should be flat not %MaxHP, and she should have more and better counterplay than just "Bring more people and cc her, duh."
> [{quoted}](name=Beast Brawler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=000400010006,timestamp=2019-01-23T10:18:46.980+0000) > > Outnumbering someone to kill them is technically counterplay but not a good design at all, and when most people say counterplay they mean what can you do by yourself to counter a mechanic or ability or make it less effective. Vayne's W should be flat not %MaxHP, and she should have more and better counterplay than just "Bring more people and cc her, duh." A lot of assassin players, and high dps duelers/fighters think that balance = well 5 people could burst me fast. Boggles my mind. Hell at this point except for champs with unvuln ultis EVERY champ gets bursted damn near instantly by 5 champs.
: you know from where i got the idea? when i get bursted down by a master yi in the period of 3 seconds worth of auto attacks and press tab and their only finished item is this i realize that any form of max health % is pure fucking cancer to play against
> [{quoted}](name=LetMeAfkPlss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=0004000400010000,timestamp=2019-01-23T19:41:20.849+0000) > > you know from where i got the idea? when i get bursted down by a master yi in the period of 3 seconds worth of auto attacks and press tab and their only finished item is this i realize that any form of max health % is pure fucking cancer to play against Yeh conqueror on Yi is just utter BS. Doesn't matter what you build it's either kill him instantly or lose 2-3 members of your team in 5-6 seconds.
: > [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=000400010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T14:48:43.842+0000) > > Maybe _you_ can't. But some people can. Thus, the counterplay exists; it's just not super easy. [QED](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/65cc58b8-2022-447c-99ee-5c3ba4e2746c). Have you tried hitting her with a quick Exhaust? It's a strong AS slow and really throws off an attack-move rhythm. You could also try hitting her with CC that interferes with autos (blind, stun, etc.) or using an ability that dodges autos (like Jax E). > > If you want to build against it, try slowing down her autos with something like Randuin's or Frozen Heart. What year did you last play. Exhaust hasn't lowered AS in years. No one runs it anymore either. Ignite is just a shit ton stronger. I mean you are talking about outplay... and you don't even know what the summoners do... lol. Also the discussion is about true damage.. with exhaust doesn't even reduce.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=00040001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010002,timestamp=2019-01-23T18:37:08.887+0000) > > Vayne kills a target in 5 seconds: broken OP. Anyone else takes more than one second to kill something: unviable. You don't read so well do you? Try again. This time read ALL the words before you check your phone for SM updates. You can do it if you try. Here are some important words you might have missed while tweeting what you were eating. > 600 armor THROUGH exhaust with JUST her true damage by ONLY r-clicking in under 5 seconds. Let me break it down for you. A 600 armor tank. Something that nearly never happens in modern league. This would normally reduce the damage of a physical damage champion by 85.7% Through a 40% damage reduction summoner that lasts for 2.5 seconds out of that. The physical damage deal here was even completely disregarded. With the physical damage added back in it would be faster. Without using ANY skills whatsoever. JUST right clicking. Considering vayne ALSO gets significant damage from her Q and R this is rather important to note. In a real game that tank wouldn't have over 300 armor, no one runs exhaust. and she'd actually... you know be using abilities? She'd kill that tank in 3 seconds, then turn on squishies and kill them in 1.5-2 each. MOST DPS champs aren't also tank shredders AND burst champs with mobility AND CC. Sure assassins can burst harder... but they can't burst back to back to back to back. Wile restealthing a potential 20+ times if needed.
: Spellthief's Edge isn't healthy or necessary in League of Legends
I vote we remove sup items, bring back Philo stone and heart of gold, and bring back buying wards, Why? So we can get these god damn mages out of bot lane.
: Baron is too easy and need a buff
NOTHING in this game needs a buff. MOST of it needs a nerf. {{item:3153}} {{item:3124}} need reworked. There needs to be less CDR. Runes need to give less damage. Gold needs to come in MUCH slower. Baron has been buffed multiple times now... but he's still easier to kill than ever. Why? Because champions deal too much fucking damage cause Rito can't balance SHIT.
: Strength of funnel on Twisted Treeline (especially at high elo)
: Little reminder on the "Conqueror" situation
> [{quoted}](name=PaffWasTaken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bAzcETK7,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-23T04:09:38.047+0000) > > Conqueror was added for a reason, it wasn't created only to see the game burn to the ground: bruisers have been desperatly in need of a dedicated keystone for them before conqueror's addition. Granted, conqueror brought an huge number of issues into the game, but it doesn't change the fact that simply removing it would just bring back another old issue, aka bruisers in general having near no viability against the other toplaners. > > Simply put: just removing conqueror without making actual changes around it will just bring us back 2 steps behind once again. Those changes could either be the implementation of a different but more healthy keystone aimed at bruisers and/or a complete rework of how damage vs resistances work in the game, including penetration/lethality nerfs and probably resistances/survivability buffs. Now tanks could finally tank once again, but a problem would still persists. Which one? The fact that tanks got their damage so powercrept over the time, that they would surpass fighters both in damage and survivability just like before. That's why that people shouldn't act surprised if it comes to nerf damage sources from tanks: be it from their kits, from items like {{item:3075}} or from runes themselves, we CAN'T let tanks surpass every single champions in every single area once again. We CAN'T let conqueror, true damage and penetrations ruin the game either, so if we want to REALLY fix that problem, a lot of changes must be made and people shouldn't be surprised by it; its not just a "remove conqueror and then game is balanced" situation. Bring us back 50 steps to season 5 so we can enjoy shit again.
Ryzê (NA)
: if we spend another season juggling ornn, sej, and galio buffs/nerfs i'm going to lose my mind
Funny thing.... Before they were reworked they were never in the patch notes... Maybe they were fine BEFORE they got gut... reworked.
: Aftershock is dumb broken. Even in this damage meta, you are practically unkillable with Aftershock. If they remove Conqueror and don't gut Aftershock we have another tank meta.
> [{quoted}](name=SunDragonz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-01-22T22:11:09.565+0000) > > Aftershock is dumb broken. Even in this damage meta, you are practically unkillable with Aftershock. If they remove Conqueror and don't gut Aftershock we have another tank meta. You mean a game where people do more than qweqrqrqrewqrewqerweqrwqerwqqqrwe ? Cause that's basically league at this point. Just spam your keys till people get hit by one cc.. and pop.
: Ideas for a Potential 4th "Stat Shard" Column
I used to run 41% AS ;) Back when the game was fun...
: Crowd Control is OUT of control.
Yup. Just try landing against. {{champion:101}} {{champion:202}} Eventually you eat a stun or snare behind your fucking turret, and get gibbed.
Dr Dog (NA)
: Xenogenic needs to see more use reworking outdated champs
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4j9aENM,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-22T18:48:44.491+0000) > > for those of you who dont know, so far Xenogenic's track record consists of the xin zhao rework and most importantly nunus rework keep in mind he's behind the gameplay of the champs not the story etc. these two outdated champions have had in my opinion some of the best and most successful reworks gameplay-wise while keeping their core identitys and delivering on the champions fantasies extremely well, i think Xenogenic with his track record so far should be the go-to for reworking outdated champions and id love to see what he would do with champions such as yi and trynda. we need more reworks like xin specifically aka smaller reworks that revamp older champions while keeping their simplicity for newer players which is something very important that seems like it will be lost on future reworks with how reworks have been recently turning simple champions like akali and irelia into high skillcapped overloaded champions. > > it may just be luck sure but i think he has a very bright future as a gameplay designer at riot and i hope to see his name at least once in this years roadmap > on the off chance they see this keep up the outstanding work Xenogenic! Definitely no then. I absolutely HATE the Nunu rework. It's the most godawfully awkward thing to try and play ever.
yukumari (NA)
: Please bring back nexus blits
Again if it isn't URF or Dominion I really couldn't care less. Rest of the fun modes have been trash. Really can't stand random modes, cause I end up with some rework of a champion I used to enjoy and just being miserable at how unfun it is after it was reworked. Just makes me want a functional season 1 or 2 private server.
: There's a difference between being killed in 0.4s and being killed in 1.5s. The difference between these is if I have 1.5s I can cast 4 spells. If I have 0.4s I can only cast 1 spell and i'm useless. Also according to the boards games ends in 20 minuts so there's no way you reach a 40 minut game :) Looking at my op.gg : In my last 77 games, only 2 went past 40 minuts (42 min for both these games). So Given that 3% of my games lasts more than 40min. Given that you can have up to 5 drakes in a game, the probabilities of 3 firedrakes are : 8 / 70 (Combination with 3 firedrake vs all combination possible). It lowers the probability to : 3/1000. Now factor the probability that you got every firedrake in the game AND at the same time you didnt end before 40min ? Factor the probability that veigar is the one fed. I'm pretty confident when I say that this : > My favorite is taking 40% of your health from a Luden's proc + Arcane Comet Never happened to him, despite the fact it may be theorically possible to a veigar with a lot of AP.
> [{quoted}](name=Starcraft243ver,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=00070005000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T11:44:48.512+0000) > > There's a difference between being killed in 0.4s and being killed in 1.5s. > > The difference between these is if I have 1.5s I can cast 4 spells. > > If I have 0.4s I can only cast 1 spell and i'm useless. > > Also according to the boards games ends in 20 minuts so there's no way you reach a 40 minut game :) > Looking at my op.gg : In my last 77 games, only 2 went past 40 minuts (42 min for both these games). > > So Given that 3% of my games lasts more than 40min. > Given that you can have up to 5 drakes in a game, the probabilities of 3 firedrakes are : 8 / 70 (Combination with 3 firedrake vs all combination possible). > > It lowers the probability to : 3/1000. > Now factor the probability that you got every firedrake in the game AND at the same time you didnt end before 40min ? > Factor the probability that veigar is the one fed. > > I'm pretty confident when I say that this : > Never happened to him, despite the fact it may be theorically possible to a veigar with a lot of AP. Ehh I've had 140+ MR and taken 3k in 1/2 second... from one champ. With stuff like Conq and all the lethality and pen % in the game one armor item doesn't honestly do much anymore.
: That is a good point that hadn't occurred to me. That said, you still do. 15+18=33, not 39. Regardless, I wasn't thinking about that, and you're right that it means very little at that point.
> [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=00070005000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T12:29:23.065+0000) > > That is a good point that hadn't occurred to me. > > That said, you still do. 15+18=33, not 39. > > Regardless, I wasn't thinking about that, and you're right that it means very little at that point. Yeh my bad was thinking lethality for some reason haha. Regardless it's a 5.42$ difference. Dtill eithin fudge range of the same result just adjust those same numbers by around like 38 damage. 40% is pretty dame close. It's just pretty damn easy to come up with different ways to see 30% + of your HP bar melt just because that huge ass Luden's proc hit a minion near you from an aoe that wasn't even aimed at the minion who ended up killing you lol. All that misc damage is an issue. Really think Luden's in general needs a rework to no apply any other effects. Makes terrible aim much less terrible when it comes to eating poke. Toss random spells at random minions in the general area of champions and you still can get 400-1k damage off for little reason other than "cool item proc effects."
: Firstly, when you add all those other components in...you also need to start adding in MR. The numbers I quoted you are WITHOUT MR calculated in. The AP requirements will go up from there. I really don't wonder where all the damage is coming from. It's pretty obvious that the power creep has come from the various item, champion, and rune reworks. Everything needs to be upgraded and better than before, which has just thrown damage way out of whack. As for the last bit, I will not try that...as I haven't played in 2-3 weeks and uninstalled a few days ago. I will continue to voice my opinion about damage being overtuned on these boards for and hope that RIOT does something about it...but I've given up hope, and will likely never come back to the game.
> [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=000700050001000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-23T10:20:54.538+0000) > > Firstly, when you add all those other components in...you also need to start adding in MR. The numbers I quoted you are WITHOUT MR calculated in. The AP requirements will go up from there. > > I really don't wonder where all the damage is coming from. It's pretty obvious that the power creep has come from the various item, champion, and rune reworks. Everything needs to be upgraded and better than before, which has just thrown damage way out of whack. > > As for the last bit, I will not try that...as I haven't played in 2-3 weeks and uninstalled a few days ago. > > I will continue to voice my opinion about damage being overtuned on these boards for and hope that RIOT does something about it...but I've given up hope, and will likely never come back to the game. Umm no I actually don't need to add in MR. Every mage builds Morello's and Sorc boots. that's -39 MR. ADC's have 38.5 MR. Seriously do people even play this game? {{item:3020}} {{item:3285}}{{item:3165}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3089}} vs a no tank team is going to do exactly what I said above.
saltran (EUW)
: No, there are adcs like Ashe or Sivir than even when they are meta they dont reach the level of banrate than adcs as Lucian or Vayne when they are meta.
> [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T09:58:56.269+0000) > > No, there are adcs like Ashe or Sivir than even when they are meta they dont reach the level of banrate than adcs as Lucian or Vayne when they are meta. I've seen a few sivir bans, but it's rare. Usually it's a mage bot that ban's her. I've seen Raka's ban her too though.
: > I'd also like to point out that 2k AP isn't exactly impossible on Veigar either, regardless of everything else. Good farm, Elixir, some infernals and an Elder and you got that shit. Toss in gathering storm and you have something rather easily achievable in a game around 40 minutes long. I've litteraly played thousands games as veigar and never reached 2k. You DONT want to reach 2k except if you want to make a funny youtube video. If you have more than 1200 AP you already one combo most people, so you start buying survivability, because you are now the most valuable player in your team and can't afford to get OS'd.
> [{quoted}](name=Starcraft243ver,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=000700050001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T09:46:41.348+0000) > > I've litteraly played thousands games as veigar and never reached 2k. You DONT want to reach 2k except if you want to make a funny youtube video. > > If you have more than 1200 AP you already one combo most people, so you start buying survivability, because you are now the most valuable player in your team and can't afford to get OS'd. Seeing as full tanks are getting one shotted.. seriously what's the point int building a single defensive item anyway? You can be 20% less dead. Woot. Either way it doesn't really matter for this conversation... though I would like to point out as someone that almost never plays the champ I've broken 2k a few games on him.... It really just comes down to how many infernal drakes spawn, and your build. 3 Infernals + first elder buff is a 36% AP buff. So you only need 1471 AP to break 2k. at 40 minutes running gathering storm and being full build (IE being fed) it's doable. For games longer than that it's actually pretty easy to break 2k ap. Second elder is a 48% AP buff with 3 infernals. In a game long enough for second elder you'd just about has to AFK for half of it to not get 2k AP if you get both.
: > There's not a single design point that you can point to that makes %HP true damage a thing that should exist. Wrong. The single design point is making something threatening to both tanks and squishy characters alike in the same amounts. If you have %HP physical damage, in order for it to be threatening to tanks it needs armor pen. At which point it becomes oppressing for squishies. If it's flat damage that isn't oppressing to squishies, tanks can completely ignore it.
> [{quoted}](name=PrinceOfStorms,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=002a,timestamp=2019-01-23T07:50:30.075+0000) > > Wrong. The single design point is making something threatening to both tanks and squishy characters alike in the same amounts. If you have %HP physical damage, in order for it to be threatening to tanks it needs armor pen. At which point it becomes oppressing for squishies. If it's flat damage that isn't oppressing to squishies, tanks can completely ignore it. My question is what in the literal fuck is Riot thinking with their "duelist" concept. IE {{champion:114}} and {{champion:67}}. **"Hey guys lets just make these 2 champs win 1v1 against anything because they are duelists."** _"How do we do that?"_ **"Let's make them deal metric assloads of true damage so noone can build anything against them to defend, but also do shit-tons of physical damage as well so they can lifesteal and fight other squishies."** _"Isn't that unbalanced?"_ **"Ehh it's my lunch break, I'm sure they'll figure it out."** /everyone goes to lunch, they return to talk about the next skin patch. Topic is never discussed again. Rito balance team 101.
: I'm sorry, but no. It's not at all accurate. If we take a midling ADC like Kalista (average HP and HP growth) here is the math on AP numbers required for LE + AC to hit for 40%: Level 1 - 534 HP x 0.4 = 213.6 - 130 (base damage of LE and AC) = 83.6 / 0.3 (LE + AC = 0.3 AP scaling) = 278.6666 AP required for 40% Level 9 - 1246 HP x 0.4 = 498.4 - 162.94 = 335.46 / 0.3 = 1118.2 AP required for 40% Level 18 - 2047 HP x 0.4 = 818.8 - 200 = 618.8 / 0.3 = 2062.6666 AP required for 40% This is before even taking into account any MR at all. I agree with the notion behind your post...but you have exaggerated the numbers. Even if unintentionally.
> [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=0007000500010000,timestamp=2019-01-23T07:24:44.845+0000) > > I'm sorry, but no. It's not at all accurate. > > If we take a midling ADC like Kalista (average HP and HP growth) here is the math on AP numbers required for LE + AC to hit for 40%: > > Level 1 - > 534 HP x 0.4 = 213.6 - 130 (base damage of LE and AC) = 83.6 / 0.3 (LE + AC = 0.3 AP scaling) = 278.6666 AP required for 40% > > Level 9 - > 1246 HP x 0.4 = 498.4 - 162.94 = 335.46 / 0.3 = 1118.2 AP required for 40% > > Level 18 - > 2047 HP x 0.4 = 818.8 - 200 = 618.8 / 0.3 = 2062.6666 AP required for 40% > > This is before even taking into account any MR at all. > > I agree with the notion behind your post...but you have exaggerated the numbers. Even if unintentionally. Where is the part where you forgot SA/AC/DH are things? You are going to be hard pressed to name a poke mage that doesn't run one of those. Also did you include the torment passive from {{item:3151}}? What about Scorch? What about Cheap Shot? What about Zombie Ward? I'd also like to point out that 2k AP isn't exactly impossible on Veigar either, regardless of everything else. Good farm, Elixir, some infernals and an Elder and you got that shit. Toss in gathering storm and you have something rather easily achievable in a game around 40 minutes long. People just tend to forget about all the BS levels of damage added by the new rune system for no damn good reason. Riot said they were trying to make for more interesting choices.... what they really added was 6 ways to do more damage. + 2 more now. Lol. All that aside if you just toss in Summon Aery, cheap shot, scorch, and zombie ward.... At even 500 AP that's 250 damage from those alone. 150 from Luden's and 6.5% (ish) from {{item:3151}} or around 133 with a potential increase of another 10% total from torment. That's 583.3 with only 500 AP. :) Getting hit with arcane comet would put you at that 40% mark even without zombie ward... getting hit with a reasonable stacked DH proc at 49% health would actually kill you lol. If you are every wondering why people complain about all the damn hidden damage Riot's added... this is why. Items, masteries, and runes used to just give stats, flat small damage buffs, or tiny AF % damage increases. (3%) Now EVERYTHING has a crap ton of extra passives and procs buffing damage for no good reason. Mix all that in with infernal drakes, elder buff, and everything else and it's just obnoxious. For the record a stacked Veigar with all of the above + DH could kill an ADC from 60% HP just from a Luden's Echo Proc right after first Elder spawn. Seeing as most games have 2 mages with Luden's these days due to bot mage support being a "thing" it's not exactly surprising how frustrating it is to ADC these days. Seriously try to play an ADC against some of the cheese shit people are filling the void bot lane with. Zyra+ Malphite bot + Xerath mid is something I ran into recently. Past level 6 I literally couldn't consider walking close enough to cCS. It only got worse as the game went on. Without flash up even being in vision of the enemy team was death. Also combos like Xerath + Jihn are becoming a thing as well. GL dodging enough of all that to even survive at your tower, let alone farm.
: > [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=000400010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T14:48:43.842+0000) > > Maybe _you_ can't. But some people can. Thus, the counterplay exists; it's just not super easy. [QED](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/65cc58b8-2022-447c-99ee-5c3ba4e2746c). Have you tried hitting her with a quick Exhaust? It's a strong AS slow and really throws off an attack-move rhythm. You could also try hitting her with CC that interferes with autos (blind, stun, etc.) or using an ability that dodges autos (like Jax E). > > If you want to build against it, try slowing down her autos with something like Randuin's or Frozen Heart. What year did you last play. Exhaust hasn't lowered AS in years. No one runs it anymore either. Ignite is just a shit ton stronger. I mean you are talking about outplay... and you don't even know what the summoners do... lol. Also the discussion is about true damage.. with exhaust doesn't even reduce.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=00040001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-23T05:53:22.588+0000) > > I play currently, I just haven't taken Exhaust in ages. I prefer Heal/Flash for laning and Smite/Flash for jungling. Sorry for forgetting a line item in a patch note from almost two years ago. > > Exhaust's old AS slow would've reduced the rate she could apply W stacks, which would've reduced her W's DPS (if she could attack at all, given the interruption in orb-walking). Even in its current iteration without an AS slow, it'll still reduce the physical damage on her autos - which, regardless of the lies people will tell about the damage contribution from Silver Bolts, is still a comfortable majority of her champ damage in a typical match. She's a marksman, not a mage. You do realisein the 2.5 second duration of exhaust a Vayne can proc silver bolts 3 (almost 4) times right? That alone NOT counting the 60% of her physical damage she's still doing or the ignite coming out of her support is 42% max health true damage. It takes a Vayne 3 seconds to kill a tank. Maybe 4 through exhaust. I'll say it again... because of shit like this {{champion:23}} is still the tankiest champ in the league. Vayne could in theory kill a tank with 600 armor THROUGH exhuast with JUST her true damage by ONLY r-clicking in under 5 seconds. All she needs is AS and rageblade. Hail of blades, or lethal tempo either one gives her enough AS with items to proc her W passive more than three times every 2 seconds average over the duration of a kill. She could be hitting for almost damn 0 physical and 7 procs' is still enough to kill. Designing champs in a way that defensive items are pointless is just bad game design.
20022012 (EUNE)
: https://champion.gg/champion/Fiora/Top https://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC the data just doesn't back your claims up. Both Vayne and Fiora have one of the highest death rates in their respective roles which would suggest they're pretty killable. Better luck next time.
> [{quoted}](name=20022012,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=001b0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T00:45:15.926+0000) > > https://champion.gg/champion/Fiora/Top > https://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC > > the data just doesn't back your claims up. Both Vayne and Fiora have one of the highest death rates in their respective roles which would suggest they're pretty killable. Better luck next time. Since when is champion.gg more reliable than op.gg?
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=00040001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T14:19:53.284+0000) > > mechanical counterplay implies that you can actually play around the ability and avoid the damage by outplaying her. > > you cant outplay her auto attacking you 3 times in the matter of a second, much less 2 times with rageblade. Maybe _you_ can't. But some people can. Thus, the counterplay exists; it's just not super easy. [QED](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/65cc58b8-2022-447c-99ee-5c3ba4e2746c). Have you tried hitting her with a quick Exhaust? It's a strong AS slow and really throws off an attack-move rhythm. You could also try hitting her with CC that interferes with autos (blind, stun, etc.) or using an ability that dodges autos (like Jax E). If you want to build against it, try slowing down her autos with something like Randuin's or Frozen Heart.
> [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=000400010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-22T14:48:43.842+0000) > > Maybe _you_ can't. But some people can. Thus, the counterplay exists; it's just not super easy. [QED](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/65cc58b8-2022-447c-99ee-5c3ba4e2746c). Have you tried hitting her with a quick Exhaust? It's a strong AS slow and really throws off an attack-move rhythm. You could also try hitting her with CC that interferes with autos (blind, stun, etc.) or using an ability that dodges autos (like Jax E). > > If you want to build against it, try slowing down her autos with something like Randuin's or Frozen Heart. What year did you last play. Exhaust hasn't lowered AS in years. No one runs it anymore either. Ignite is just a shit ton stronger. I mean you are talking about outplay... and you don't even know what the summoners do... lol. Also the discussion is about true damage.. with exhaust doesn't even reduce.
: Can Riot explain ranked logic too me?
Here is a better one. I did some flex with some buds of mine. One bud of mine like myself had zero flex games played. We spammed a bunch of games that day and got placed. I was played in Iron 2... and he was placed in bronze 2.... even though we played all placement games together, lol.
: When competitive game scare people, it does NOT benefit the game itself.
Frankly I couldn't give less of a rats ass what pro players and streamers do. Balance the game around 99.9999% of the player base. Hell with them. They are pro they'll figure it out.
: [Nexus Blitz] The Prize Fight event can be rigged by the enemy
I assure you having 5 teemo shrooms and 3 maokai plants down makes a massive fucking difference when it's a ranged vs melee matchup.
Yenn (NA)
: I can predict which players in my games are going to be toxic with 80%+ accuracy
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=iiHJKFEu,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-21T20:30:21.535+0000) > > Thanks to the lack of borders in the loading screen. > > I've actually started taking note of which players on my team don't have borders; virtually every game with Diamond+ players has at least one borderless teammate. After they start raging, I look them up, and unsurprisingly find that they have hundreds of games played, meaning they lost their honor to punishment. > > This makes it pretty clear that punished players don't reform; if anything, they're just expressing their toxicity in a way that goes undetected, often with passive aggressive comments and spamming pings. Fuck borders. It's a PvP game not an ass kissing sim dating service.
Tennousu (NA)
: An argument of why not to revert Current Shen (and a defense of new Shen)
I stopped playing him the second he got reworked. Loved old shen. Then again the only reworked champs I play still armor WW and Swain.... and I prefered old swain.
: I mean you can basically say the same about some midlaners, changing sup rant for jg one and stuff like that. Not to mention some adcs like {{champion:67}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:15}} have decent self defense, so this rant doesn't cover all adcs, and let's not forget bot is more versatile now and champions like {{champion:8}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:157}} can be a thing (I don't really like it though). But anyway this rant post is for adc mains/adorers, so I won't even care to argue with any of you.
> [{quoted}](name=Paravozikchoocho,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TNvmnXiE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-01-22T00:31:23.721+0000) > > I mean you can basically say the same about some midlaners, changing sup rant for jg one and stuff like that. > Not to mention some adcs like {{champion:67}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:15}} have decent self defense, so this rant doesn't cover all adcs, and let's not forget bot is more versatile now and champions like {{champion:8}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:157}} can be a thing (I don't really like it though). > But anyway this rant post is for adc mains/adorers, so I won't even care to argue with any of you. If you want to see something disgusting check out Malphite + Zyra bot lane.
: bounties broken
Except you get some super strong early picks on your team like {{champion:58}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:64}} or whatever... they stomp early... get 1k gold bounties... eventually get outscaled... die to a hyper carry... Then suddenly you are stuck with shitty early game champs and their hyper-carries come online just from bounties.
: > [{quoted}](name=GFREEMEN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cMU1NeM8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T19:57:57.880+0000) > > Currently if you are Autofilled and you lose you lose full LP > > If they make this change and you are autofilled and you lose you lose little LP for your main. > > There will be MORE trolling/ Inting with the new setup because it cost them little. > > They need to make it cost you full LP to stop Inting or at the VERY least very close to full LP loss. > > The advantage of Autofill is getting placed in lower tiers then your main. This is operating on the thought that people WANT to lose. Even if their loss is diminished, losing LP is always annoying and hardly anybody ever goes into a game wanting to lose "because it doesn't matter"
> [{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cMU1NeM8,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-22T03:56:43.643+0000) > > This is operating on the thought that people WANT to lose. Even if their loss is diminished, losing LP is always annoying and hardly anybody ever goes into a game wanting to lose "because it doesn't matter" But you lose more LP wasting an extra 25 minutes of valuable gaming time trying to win 3 lp than you would losing 3 lp in 15 then winning 18-20 lp in 25.
Hibeki (NA)
: Mage supports are able to succeed solely because of this item. If it did not give extra damage and have 120% stat efficiency, mages would end up pushed out. If it shared the same stat efficiency as the others (70-80%) then you wouldn't see more than brand and morgana bot lane. Mages typically have lower base damage early game---oh this item covers that with damage per spell hit Mages typically use a lot of mana---oh this item has 50% base mana regen on it Mages typically want to spam spells more----oh this item has 10% cdr on it Cant forget the scaling too! Mages need AP-----oh this item has that too. To put in perspective: {{item:4302}} would need 10% cdr and 10 armor for it to have the same gold stats as {{item:3098}}. Hell swap that CDR for another 12 armor and surprise! Tank supports are broken!
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=vYItR0Uk,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-05T02:35:32.334+0000) > > Mage supports are able to succeed solely because of this item. If it did not give extra damage and have 120% stat efficiency, mages would end up pushed out. > > If it shared the same stat efficiency as the others (70-80%) then you wouldn't see more than brand and morgana bot lane. > > Mages typically have lower base damage early game---oh this item covers that with damage per spell hit > Mages typically use a lot of mana---oh this item has 50% base mana regen on it > Mages typically want to spam spells more----oh this item has 10% cdr on it > Cant forget the scaling too! Mages need AP-----oh this item has that too. > > To put in perspective: {{item:4302}} would need 10% cdr and 10 armor for it to have the same gold stats as {{item:3098}}. Hell swap that CDR for another 12 armor and surprise! Tank supports are broken! The thing is mages should NOT be succeeding bot lane. They all just ran bot because mid lane is dominated by AD assassins.
Naalith (NA)
: I have no clue how ADC mains play this role with any regularity.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/17/17898a3e9b2a7e80e563ef2d5dfb8a41af513c82552b606223b115d61b8ee634.jpg
Weensw (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T23:28:41.005+0000) > > Just because Jinx has a hard time dealing with tanks (which I don't think is true btw) doesn't mean tanks are a problem. You have 4 other people on the team besides the adc. If the adc can't shred through the tanks someone else probably can. Dealing with tanks is a team effort. Teammates peel and cc, adc's bring the damage. In the earlier seasons, tanks were both low damage and hard to kill at the same time. "not being able to kill a tank" isn't really that much of an issue either, because guess what? The tanks did barely any damage to you back then(unlike now they do a lot of damage to you). At the same time, back then, "who cares if you can't kill the tank"? What tends to usually happen at the end of a team fight is that all the teammates on said tank's team is dead and left with a tank with 60% hp remaining. Then, doesn't matter how tanky he/she is, the tank will get surrounded by 3 - 4 people and eventually killed. Now compare that to the tank today, who gets blown up in 4 seconds and always the first one to die. This sounds pretty healthy for me. Therefore, who cares if Jinx can't kill a tank? Being able to kill Bruisers/AP/Assassins is more important.
> [{quoted}](name=Weensw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T23:36:10.397+0000) > > In the earlier seasons, tanks were both low damage and hard to kill at the same time. "not being able to kill a tank" isn't really that much of an issue either, because guess what? The tanks did barely any damage to you back then(unlike now they do a lot of damage to you). At the same time, back then, "who cares if you can't kill the tank"? What tends to usually happen at the end of a team fight is that all the teammates on said tank's team is dead and left with a tank with 60% hp remaining. Then, doesn't matter how tanky he/she is, the tank will get surrounded by 3 - 4 people and eventually killed. > > Now compare that to the tank today, who gets blown up in 4 seconds and always the first one to die. > > This sounds pretty healthy for me. Therefore, who cares if Jinx can't kill a tank? Being able to kill Bruisers/AP/Assassins is more important. Again I said I RAPE tanks... not tanks rape me.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2019-01-21T23:21:59.475+0000) > > The number of games I rape tanks on even a bleh vs tanks adc like Jinx begs to differ. > > Hell if you are worried about a tanky team just run conqueror... you'd delete a tank in that 3 second window with time left over to scratch your ass. Just because Jinx has a hard time dealing with tanks (which I don't think is true btw) doesn't mean tanks are a problem. You have 4 other people on the team besides the adc. If the adc can't shred through the tanks someone else probably can. Dealing with tanks is a team effort. Teammates peel and cc, adc's bring the damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T23:28:41.005+0000) > > Just because Jinx has a hard time dealing with tanks (which I don't think is true btw) doesn't mean tanks are a problem. You have 4 other people on the team besides the adc. If the adc can't shred through the tanks someone else probably can. Dealing with tanks is a team effort. Teammates peel and cc, adc's bring the damage. I was saying the opposite. I absolutely slaughter tanks as Jinx lol. I love seeing them, it's the same as a free win.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-21T17:01:38.725+0000) > > Only Vayne and Fiora have it. Vayne is destroyed early, and Fiora can’t deal the true damage if she doesn’t hit those marks. Mundo and Volibear would run rampant if they did get rid of % true damage. I don't think that's true. We have items that reduce healing and we have ignite. We also have last whisper. That's enough to deal with tanks.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BiwtyRuo,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2019-01-21T23:12:28.127+0000) > > I don't think that's true. We have items that reduce healing and we have ignite. We also have last whisper. That's enough to deal with tanks. The number of games I rape tanks on even a bleh vs tanks adc like Jinx begs to differ. Hell if you are worried about a tanky team just run conqueror... you'd delete a tank in that 3 second window with time left over to scratch your ass.
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The Bad Touch

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