: Lethality build has NO real tradeoffs.
Cleaver has an awful build path, and only offers 40 ad and 24% penetration with 6 stacks. Mage items are objectively better in every way. Probably not a good idea to complain if you play the best class in the game with the best items. Btw you can build seekers and counter 5800g worth of lethality ;) super fair
: We really don't need that elder execute though.
Hard agree, I play assassins, and even I STRONGLY dislike this current iteration of elder. Feels like an uncounterable win button.
: Preseason: Rise of the Elements on PBE!
I do have a complaint about the infernal map changing, this just makes it so rengar suffers flat out, and removes a ton of juke/outplay potential for all other champions as a whole. I don't even main rengar, I just play him a bit and it frustrates me that I could wind up seeing an infernal soul and it just ruins my champion. Also as a side note not very excited for the latest version of cloud that gives cdr to people that already itemize/build runes for cdr that would break them (looking at mages and assassins) changing cloud drake probably means removing ultimate hunter, which means champions that actually NEED the rune (zed/akali/karthus etc) have to get lucky with dragon spawns to get the cdr, and they don't have to perform anything like target selection to get there if they do. If ulti hunter DOESN'T go, it means everyone that does use it just gets nerfed. Also the changes are an overall nerf to lethality and talking with players that use these items I am yet to see even one person have positive things to say about the proposed changes (particularly the heavy Edge of Night nerf with the latest changes, making it a banshees AND making it not worth buying as a 3rd or even 2nd item in any situation). Edge of Night's latest version increases the cost, reduces the stats on an already overpriced item. Additionally the change to the spellshield is counterintuitive, buying edge of night is now supposed to be done late-game, which means you would not have the draktharr arsenal buff (cause buying 3 lethality items is currently HEAVILY discouraged) so you missed out on that, and are trying to use a passively active shield with a 40 second cd to flank. Asking for a 40 second break between interactions is far too steep to ask. This change doesn't actually wind up benefiting new players as it prevents the item's use in most situations. We as a collective (I can speak for everyone i have talked to in the zed club and surrounding groups) would rather see no changes to lethality, as opposed to the current list of changes on pbe. The new changes are viewed as an overall nerf without any buff in any way. To make anyone want to itemize lethality which is already viewed as a bad stat (second to only Magic Resist) would require some kind of increase in power/gold efficiency. The gold and slot efficiency of lethality items is currently severly lacking, and we think that recognizes this, but executed it in our eyes very incorrectly. I, and others, suggest adding a 3rd bonus slot in the draktharr arsenal at the very least. Other things I've had suggested to me would be reassessing the gold efficiency of these items, increasing the cost of youmuus and duskblade to 3000, but granting them 65 ad, and obviously not changing edge of night at all. Finishing a lethality item should make the player feel like something has changed since they had the components, currently it really doesn't. Personally I don't even take the duskblade damage into consideration when purchasing the item since its so negligible. I buy it purely because there is nothing better to itemize on AD assassins. I value the vision control and cdr. As things stand, very few people that play Zed will buy duskblade first, I'm pretty sure every player I know in diamond+ goes youmuus (I honestly cant think of anyone that goes duskblade first). Thank you if you read all this, this wasn't supposed to be a rant, but a collective opinion I have gathered over the past 3 or so days from my friends that have experience playing related champions. Have a good season regardless. The Chillin
: Wukong Update- Now In Active Development!
Assuming the previous changes are what are coming back, I still see this as an overall damage nerf without giving him an actual survivability tool to deal extended fights. I suggest giving him a reason to actually channel his R lategame, as is its just not worth using aside from the brief knockup. Garen E does more damage than this at all points of the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hahahahyena,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xI4NVWUY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-07T07:26:02.892+0000) > > people will defend unbalanced cancer like {{champion:238}} to the death for no reason, I guess those people like unfun and unbalanced gameplay? > > i dont understand people and their obsession with 1-shot burst, it just makes the game stale and brainless Or you can get better, you can trust me, and then zed won't be a problem... ever
People just don't understand cloth counters youmuus. Tabi OR seekers OR chainvest counter 5800g worth of lethality. Easy game go next
: Nah. I don't play Kat, so I wouldn't be using it. Still interesting to know it's strong on her tho.
This was the best way, back before conqueror got nerfed. Now you take conqueror into double tank comps. Otherwise just take electrocute and take as many people down as fast as you can. Don't take conq into burst comps either. That would be bad cause you won't have time to stack it realistically.
: > [{quoted}](name=DGAGAAsharpAGD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xI4NVWUY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-07-07T07:36:32.850+0000) > > You mean the post where Zed had full antiarmor build and I mean full, he sold boots to get dirk, just for Rammus to live +-8 secs while eating 2 whole rotations?? ZeD iS bRoKeN NA
This region is funny. People here dont learn how to be play against stuff they beg Papa riot to nerf the game around them.
: It to bad that about 95% of the things you said are false after looking over the replay. You are both at 70%ish not full hp. His W was on cd but he did hit you with a Q and he is at half energy. The fight is at lvl 6/7 "Zed is lvl 7" the items are you with a {{item:1036}} {{item:1029}} and him with a {{item:3134}} . You do not q-e-w-auto you E-W-R. He ults while your useing your ult dodging most of it, but his combo isnt r-aa-e-aa its r-e-aa-q. His W does not come back up it still halfway on cooldown after the end of the fight. You did not E to a minion and id say the deathmark wasn't even needed to kill you because of the ignite. you did not have 90 armor you had 69. And if you mean a fight that happened at level 10 hate to say this but there wasn't one from lvl 10-11 zed wasn't even on your screen. also how do you get to lvl 10 with only 2 long swords and a seekers same for zed? pretty sure you can get more then that by afking to the same time? LINK-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ILd68BWuMg&feature=youtu.be
Absolutely slammed, thank you for the good work
: Fizz changes are going to hurt him. Competent laners will poke him way to hard with AA’s, and so he will never be able to scale later. Shoulda just kept it as a physical damage reduction.
Actually no. This change works on DoT and multihit (cassio bleed, kaisa q, minions, autos, spells) I'm actually thinking of pairing their with boneplating and starting armor into ad matchups to be invincible. This change also counters talons entire passive as it is on pbe.
: Fizz is total shit now
I'm spamming fizz in diamond and disagree with everything here
Jøkèr (NA)
: A Follow-up on Qiyana
Go q e w, w 2nd is just not worth it mathematically.
: Hashinshin says a lot of dumb shit, but he got ADCs players right. Their superpower being super fucking bitching about how they're weak when they're strongest role in the game since time immemorial. ADCs have monopoly over botlane, where not a single other class of champions breaks 1% playrate, and you think the role is weak when all you have to do is hover M2 on someone to do 1000 dps from range.
God this is so absolutely true^
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nyGTalPh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-06T06:52:22.994+0000) > > I'm fine with most adcs, but some are very problematic and tbh, should really see nerfs > {{champion:51}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:236}} are all extremely frustrating for varying issues > {{champion:236}} {{champion:81}} have far too much mobility for marksman, on top of this, they both get away with tankier builds making them much harder to deal with > {{champion:498}} {{champion:51}} have some of the ultimate denial abilites, which already make them rather frustrating to play against, esp with how quickly caits traps arm now > {{champion:145}} is just outright fucking bullshit, she can just change up how she's building to better suit her, on top of this, she is among the hardest to win against due to her having more dmg then most other marksman > to a degree, one of the big issues though, is just how powerful supports are rn, champs like {{champion:40}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:99}} are all great examples of what make adc's too fucking strong > Let's also not forget the problems with crit rn, it's far too strong and tbh, really should be nerfed to 150% dmg rather then 200% (at least for ranged champs), as your essentially doing 600 - 800 dmg an auto with the current crit system, so your not even needing to play as an adc, since you 3 bang any assassin that gets near you, and since flash is still a thing, you just dodge their dmg, kill them, and keep going (this is where the problems with xayah and cait really shine, since they don't even need to flash) > To be completely honest, marksman and melee carries should never be balanced on equal terms, as marksman will always outshine the melee carry, you always need to budget power towards the fact that said champ is ranged You forgot Corki man. He is also literally cancer with his low cooldown super long ranged ultimate paired with his range / package steriod and sheen. A few days ago I had a Corki smacking me for 1,000's when I had 1400 health and 150 armor. He only had like 5 kills when it happened too, so he wasn't even super fed at that point. No one on my team could kill him due to his massive range and his dash, literally a long range damage shitting machine that was unkillable. I agree with the fact that some Marksman simply have too much mobility for the amount of benefit they get out of being ranged.
Corki autos deal magic damage. Fun fact
HàrrowR (EUW)
: People still complain about ADCs?
Problem is riot keeps making the role too brainess/easy/overpowered. And yet EVERY season ADCs cry even though their role is broken
: I really thought about writing a long ass text about why your comment (and your bias) couldn't be more wrong. But then I realised I have been downvoted for saying Zed is,** IN MY OPINION**, more fun than Talon and at the same time siginificantly harder. At the same time some dude said "it's **factually** impossible" with the only argument being that Zed has energy instead of mana. Which, in fact, makes it harder to throw out MORE than one rotation compared to mana champs, especially important on assassin roles so they aren't useless even if they CDs are back up (and if you didn't understand: Zed still has to wait for his energy even if all of his CDs are up, Talon doesn't, he can just pull out another rotation of abilities). Meaning, no facts have been stated against my (provocative) opinion. But, eh, not worth the time.
These people know they're wrong they just like shitposting and getting upvotes from other bad players. Anyone with half a braincell knows Zed is fine right now.
: Lee Sin Voice Update
This VO is objectively worse sounding. I truly hope they don't go with this if they change it at all. This would just make me like/play the champion less.
: Pyke change proposal that doesn't completely ruin solo pyke like the current proposed changes will.
I see both of these comments so far, I propose another change then, give Pyke a proximity buff (think old kalista w passive) where his abilities are stronger/have better range/something when he is near any ally (~1000 units or so) Weaken his current abilities, and make them a tad stronger when near allies (perhaps stacking per ally near like a school of fish theme) thinking 25% weaker solo 10% stronger than currently when with team.
: Damage Text Changes
10/10 any improvement is welcomed
Rioter Comments
: What makes a champion "hard to play"?
Fun fact, ahri's winrate and banrate are both higher than zed's above plat.
: zed:
I too love when the enemy has 7000 hp lategame and 0 mr so my passive can even do that much damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Chillin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w3cAAblj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-14T18:58:22.775+0000) > > Cloth armor stops one entire lethality item, chainvest/ninja tabi stops 2. 300g stops 2900g worth of lethality, 800/1100g stops 5800g worth of lethality. Items with lethality on them have other stats and abilities.
use that extra 2600 to fit a ruby crystal in there, that blocks 180 damage from the 55AD from lethality items feeding into ability and auto ratios. and after you spend that 700 gold total on cloth and a ruby crystal, use the other 2200 to build something nice.
: So whats the point of building armor again?
Cloth armor stops one entire lethality item, chainvest/ninja tabi stops 2. 300g stops 2900g worth of lethality, 800/1100g stops 5800g worth of lethality. Try this, you're welcome. Also we have broken items like phantom dancer, deaths dance, steraks, zhonyas that just completely save you regardless of you behind/bad you are.
: You really want bruisers to be worse than they are ?
: Can we remove or nerf Black Cleaver?
I wonder if a gold tank main who hates classes meant to counter his should be asking for items to be removed so he doesn't have to play correctly into any matchup should be heeded.
: wukong new Q
He will be a Trinity user. That's the only way to make up for his damage loss.
Gildarzt (EUW)
: No. It would be OP as fuck to put shaco's R in a basic ability.
An immobile, 5 second, half damage clone is more than justified to mimic keystone's. Lb and neeko already maintain debuffs like slows/ignite. At least make the clone function with that and keystones. Or this "juking fantasy" just won't work against smart players.
Gildarzt (EUW)
: Are you trying to compare shaco's R (his ultimate) with wukong's W (basic ability)?
Yes, a clone with the purpose of mimicking a champion should behave like a champion.
RaQqa (EUNE)
: I appriciate wukong changes on pbe, but I have one suggestion to add.
He feels super clunky as is, after using abilities it interrupts/stops inputs from being made for about 0.1 sec. Ruins how fluid he feels on live servers
: > [{quoted}](name=The Chillin,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=NKop7U6K,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-05-17T22:25:21.190+0000) > > Riot hates the idea of giving champs armor shred currently. Q deals magic to make people want to build lethality less. Clones dealing magic doesnt make much sense. His Q does feel like shit tho, agreed. I just I like it as a way to fight full tanks at mid-late game, cause I believe that bruisers/fighters should have the advantage against tanks, tanks should deal well with assassins and mages. You're def right about the Q tho, but I feel like a magical decoy should be dealing magic damage instead of physical.
I was working with someone on Zed recently and the rioter involved was adamant that no armor shred be involved. At least they took my idea for the AD ratio on Q, now I think this champ is going places.
: My Thoughts and Critique of the NEW WUKONG.
Riot hates the idea of giving champs armor shred currently. Q deals magic to make people want to build lethality less. Clones dealing magic doesnt make much sense. His Q does feel like shit tho, agreed.
Rioter Comments
Veraska (NA)
: Some wukong feedback
As predicted he is just another trinity abuser now since they took out his AD ratios, best way to play him by far with phage passive for sticking, 20% cdr, health and attackspeed for clone damage. I personally think giving him an AD ratio on Q the same as the heal would be fine. Keeping the 'low base damage will keep people from building lethality' mentality but making it not feel bad to put points into. Cause right now other than the cdr I cant justify putting more than 2 points into it before 13 ( I like E Q W Q E E E E for level 9, then maxing W cause im only getting 20 damage and 20 heal if i put more points into it)
: Care to expand?
This rework would make him more unplayable than he currently is. 1 sec delay before using abilities after spawning a shadow? lol There is no reason to even put a cd on the auto attack bonus as currently proposed. W cd starting after the ability ends would mean you have to lower the base cd of the ability by 4 sec not inc by 2. The R is actually impossible to do, and feels skillless and unrewarding. To list a few things. This changelist clearly wasnt made in earnest.
: Why do you keep buffing ADCs while nerfing other roles??
This is so true tho, role has been overpowered and brainless for a long time
: Zed rework idea
Unimplementable and not rewarding
FelBeef (NA)
: Wukong 1 trick since season 2. 1million mastery over accounts. Mid diamond. My concern is with this kit still not making sense as far as scaling and a damage amplification passive being a bandaid. His q now does magic damage. Why? He has an attack speed steroid and an ult that scales with total AD. Does q scale with Ad but for some reason do magic damage to diversify his damage output? Does the clones auto attack speed scale with our current attack speed or when it is cast. For example if I dash into a jungle camp and then immediately w to avoid being destroyed by krugs will my clone recieve my boosted attack speed and stack my passive faster? If I w then dash with the clone attack with my current AS or when it was cast? Q not scaling with damage seems like you're gutting his q damage in the hope that his conditional damage source of someone being stupid enough to stand next to and auto attack his clone in an extended trade somehow compensates for his q not scaling. (But i guess it's better than the 10 damage it currently does) I would love to test these changes and see scaling numbers as well. What do I need to do to make a pbe account
I think they are trying to force the E max playstyle with this. Pbe account google league of legends pbe, you apply using your account, and hope they give you one. Also honor level 3 or higher I think
Meddler (NA)
: Prototype Wukong Changes on PBE Context
If removing damage I would suggest giving him more dps via cooldown, I love the champion but I have to say this does make him objectively weaker even with sustain added. Perhaps give his Q and/or E a lower cooldown? or tie it to having full stacks of 'Crushing Blows' (similar to Darius passive). Maybe slide some movespeed/rank into W during stealth. Also his R numbers are currently interesting. Lategame it isn't worth letting your R finish the full duration since doing damage via auto attacks and Q are more worthwhile damage wise. I wouldn't mind seeing him become a sticky dps champ with lower cds, riven right now does more damage with flat out more mobility, renekton just has more damage in every way. Give him lower cds and he could stand up and punish with frequent trade patterns with the new small sustain. Love the changes so far though.
Meddler (NA)
: Q is still an AA reset yes. Let me know how you're feeling about ability to access the heal once you've had a chance to try it in game? My thinking around not adding additional CC was that there was an opportunity here to keep Wukong more distinct from other melee damage dealers while still making him more effective in some circumstances. If this direction doesn't work out we'd be open to considering more standard CC approaches, worry that makes him more generic though and undercuts our ability to offer other tools. Revised Stoneskin on the passive is intended to give him better burst resistance in teamfights. Going with Armor and MR for now rather than DR because that gives better hooks into the item system for both Wukong and other players. He can itemize to strengthen the passive, with Stoneplate especially looking really strong in some circumstances, players really struggling against him can prioritize % shred. DR by contrast's a flatter mechanic that removes some depth from the game. It's got its place certainly, but think there's value in avoiding it where possible unless extreme consistency is really important (e.g. Braum E). Been seeing some meaningful trickster increase with a single clone. Again, lemme know how if feels post play though.
Since he is losing damage I suggest maybe lowering his Q CD early maybe late, possibly sliding movespeed to his stealth to give him better repositioning (maybe increase/rank) or making her R tick ratio higher since late game you cancel it immediately after knockup since it is less damage than using a spell (late game R damage > using rest of kit) Love the rework tho, I've been waiting for this for ages!
Rioter Comments
: Riot intentionally gives lower gains/higher losses in diamond.
I did the exact same thing you did, was so demoralized when I saw I was getting shit LP gains, hopefully S10 is less shitty.
Her shield literally lasts 10 seconds lmao, shorten the duration to 2 and 2 and you got a deal
: The player or the champ? The combo still did like 215 damage despite boneplating and cloth armor so i assume you mean the player........well yeah he could have gone all in i suppose? Feels like Akali would just pop W and Zed would be sitting dry though.
Point is the champ doesn't deal damage if you so much as attempt to build armor. If that were ahri instead of zed with full combo, you easily lose 60% of your hp
: The sad thing is that he's on top tier on some of all those pages like op.gg etc etc, he's Tier 1 as if he was really good, lol, people tend to guide a lot by win rates, when In reality the reason zed was "Op" or felt op and had such a decent win rate after the changes is because zed mains were spamming the shit out of him and winning a lot of games, its really sad that a champion who's been bad for 3 seasons received a change, not even a buff, a change and got instantly nerfed when he was finally playable, hell, go play zed now its depressing to play him, I don't even want to play the champion anymore, you are weaker than most mid champions even more after the nerfs, 22 cd W, less damage on Q, some spam bone plating, or theres the stupid seal and corruption pots thing, while theres way stronger champs than him and there were even after the buffs, after buffs you would still deal no damage after someone bought tabis because lethality is a shit stat too, deal a lot of damage to no armors and deal no damage to armors, the champion is not good nor early nor mid nor lategame anymore, he's just bad at all time during each match, its so fucking depressing to play the champion and to see that riot hasn't touched real OP champs like riven and vayne, riven who can have nonexistent cooldowns on her shield while also healing because of spear and DD, vayne who was permanent invisibility during teamfights with a support like Lulu or nami shielding her and giving her more damage, while also stacking her passive with 2 autos with rage blade. But hey, adc mains complain and riot listens to them cause they love to complain about anything that kills them when they know well they made a mistake by not looking at the map or backing off, they overstep onto a zed and they say he's op, when theres waaaay more champions that do that with less problems. Even mages do assassins work better its just ridiculous at this point. At the very least if they were going to nerf him by increasing the cool down, which was one of the biggest complaints we had since its our trading tools, they should've not tuned down the damage, it makes no sense that they made the champ worse than he was before. They haven't even reworked the useless passive he has.
I feel, I have 2.2 million mastery on the champ, but silver players on mages with no idea what they are doing are a higher threat than you in lane. Mage bias is super strong rn with riot.
: ......Nice enough clip but what do you wana accomplish by posting it*?
Laugh at how bad Zed is.
: i'm kinda sick of how hard this community hates on the champs that take passion to master and play
Don't do that here, the population of boards is low elo shitposters that jerk themselves off to adcs and mages. You are correct though, objectively speaking.
PDawg991 (NA)
: A newbie's take on the game
Focus on dying less. After landing phase ends don't do the same thing over and over. Every movement out of lane needs to be"how can I (safely) inflict damage to the enemy's wincon/put my team in a good position".
: Zed is only fair to play and objectively weak / bad in more situations than he is good in at a level of play where people are proficient with their champions and people know why he is so weak. The same people whining about zed I could smash with the aforementioned zed even though I am an adc main. I think if they are invested enough in the game to get emotional and salty then it's easier to blame zed then man up / learn things and grow and that would be required to understand why Zed needs a lot of love right now or to understand his problems.
> [{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P16d7tfw,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-04-26T14:55:22.558+0000) > > Zed is only fair to play and objectively weak / bad in more situations than he is good in at a level of play where people are proficient with their champions and people know why he is so weak. The same people whining about zed I could smash with the aforementioned zed even though I am an adc main. I think if they are invested enough in the game to get emotional and salty then it's easier to blame zed then man up / learn things and grow and that would be required to understand why Zed needs a lot of love right now or to understand his problems. This, low elo players need to want to learn the game rather than have riot nerf something that beat them.
Napoleon3 (EUNE)
: zed vs rammus full build.
: > [{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jj8ci8J2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-25T17:40:37.541+0000) > > 1100g for 20 armour and a passive which isn't that useful against zed. 1100g for negating one of zed's 2 lethality items (With your zhonyas doing the other), and good movement speed, plus extra damage reduction to his duskblade proc also helps against the inevitable AD bruiser in top lane and the ADC in bot lane, couple it with the morello that every mage builds and you'll be fairly tanky another good anti zed item is protobelt because if you can't cc him you can certainly dash away
It actually negates both. its 45 armor after 5 waves, zed wont even have his 2nd lethality item. Seekers alone Counters 5800G worth of Zed's build. that and it gives ap, AND is 170% gold efficient as a purchase. Item is I N S A N E.
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The Chillin

Level 366 (NA)
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